Call Her Daddy - Denise Huskins: My Kidnapping Story

Episode Date: April 3, 2024

Join Alex in the studio for a powerful interview with kidnapping and assault survivor Denise Huskins. In 2015, Denise was taken from her boyfriend’s house in the middle of the night. She was held for days, drugged, and assaulted before finally being released by her captors. But when Denise told the police what had happened to her, nobody believed her. In fact, they attacked her. They called her a liar, hoaxster, fraud, and the real life “Gone Girl.” They claimed she’d made it all up for fame and attention. Today, Denise is here to tell her incredible story of overcoming trauma, staying calm in the midst of chaos, and fighting for the truth. This is an important conversation about what it takes for women to be believed, the problem with victim blaming, and how Denise was finally able to reclaim her name and her life.This episode discusses adult subject matter, including descriptions of sexual violence, and is intended for adult consumption only. Listener discretion is advised. Visit spotify.com/resources for information and resources. Listen to Denise Huskins audio book: Victim F: From Crime Victims to Suspects to Survivors on Spotify.

Daddy gang, picture this. It's a typical day for you. You just got off of work. You go pick up a pizza. You head over to your boyfriend's house for dinner. And you guys are just hanging out and you eventually start having one of those emotionally deep conversations that goes on for hours about just the status of your relationship. You've been dating for seven months. You're just trying to figure out, are we doing this or are we not? Eventually you're exhausted. You decide you're staying together. You're happy. You're in love. You go to bed. And then imagine at 3 a.m.

you're woken up and blinded by a bright white light, laser beams across your body, and you hear a taser go off somewhere in the room a voice you don't recognize tells your boyfriend to lay on his stomach and commands you to tie him up you just woke up you're confused you're disoriented you have absolutely no idea what the fuck is going on who are these people or what are they here and what do they want? And the next thing you know, you have blacked out swim goggles put over your eyes so you can't see

anything and headphones are placed over your ears. You hear wind chimes and a strange recorded voice telling you someone is going to take your vitals and give you a sedative to calm you down. Nothing is making sense or adding up. You're struggling to process what is happening. You're taken out of the room with the man and suddenly this guy says to you this wasn't meant for you but loads you into the truck of his car and you are taken away and you fall asleep from the sedative and you wake up in a cabin daddy gang this is a true story this is den Denise Huskin's story. And this is a story of a woman who was kidnapped, raped, survived, and then came out to realize that the world thought she had completely put on an entire hoax, that she made all of this up and did not believe her story. I'm so excited to sit down with her today and talk to her about her experience. If any of these subject matters could

be sensitive to you or triggers, please, maybe this is one you tune out and I'll see you next week. For those that are going to stick around and listen, here is Denise Heskins. What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex, with Call Her Daddy. Denise Heskins, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank you. How are you doing today? Oh, God. Every day is a mixed bag of emotions.

So, like, I'm good, you know, like, all in all, I'm good. But then there's just still just my body is just like processing a lot of stress and stuff from the past. So like it's really nice to be able to speak and share about what happened and how we've gotten through it. But it also just brings up a lot of deep seated pain. So yeah, yeah. For context to everyone watching or listening. The story of your kidnapping was told in a Netflix documentary recently, American Nightmare, which was at the top of the charts, it had like 21 million plus streams as interesting as it is for people to consume that type of content. It's your life and everyone was watching it. Like, how did you feel when you saw the world watching and experiencing your story for the

first time? It was certainly surreal. But the Netflix experience, you know, that like it drops in 190 countries and there's, you know, millions and millions of all of a sudden. So now it's just like it's I mean, it's overwhelming and incredibly positive. Yeah. People from all over the world sharing their stories with me, calling me brave and a badass and all these wonderful compliments. But at the same time, I'm like, you know, at home on the couch, curled in a ball, my stomach's sick, like a lot of that, that fear, that terror. You know, I mean, I spent two days in captivity, believing I would be killed, in complete shock that I'm released. So yeah, it just the exposure, the public exposure is so

intertwined with the thought of being killed that it's like really hard for my body to differentiate the two. It's like, okay, I know I'm safe. I know that. And like most of, most of the attention is very positive right now. So it's very different. But it's still like my body doesn't know the difference. I do kind of want to go back to the beginning because I'm sure people are sitting here and we're talking about a Netflix doc and there's this thing that happened. Like you're a very normal person. Tell me about life before all this, like who you were, your job, your upbringing, just like kind of paint the picture. Yeah. So in 2015, I was 29 years old. I grew up in Southern California. I went to undergrad with the goal to become a physical therapist. And I went to get my doctorate in Brooklyn, New York,

which was a really cool experience to be able to get something completely different than Southern California, the energy, the culture, the people. I had a lot of self-learning, self-discovery at that time. And yeah, I started working for a couple of years and I went to Vallejo, California for a physical therapy residency to specialize in working with people who've had severe neurological disorders or traumatic brain injury, spinal cord injury, stroke. I mean, these people and their families were faced with an unexpected tragic event and are literally like building, trying to rebuild their lives. And so that's what I was doing at the time. I was working with people who were going through their own trauma and trying to help them and guide them. And that's where I met Aaron, who's now my husband.

Seven months before your kidnapping, you guys meet. Can you describe how you met and go a little bit more into the dynamic of that relationship? Yeah, so we met at work. He's a physical therapist. He was working at the hospital. We would see each other out in group settings with the other PTs, and we always just gravitated towards one another. We were dating for about seven months or so. And it was kind of an on again, off again thing because he had just been going through a really devastating breakup of his own with someone he was engaged to, who he thought he was going to spend his life with. And

she had cheated on him. And so that like his whole view of his life and his future just crumbled. So I could really empathize with what he was going through. But at the same time, after a few months of inconsistency, it was kind of we were at like a crossroads in a relationship. So it's like I said, like he was going through a difficult time. And it was, you know, if you look at it from the outside, it's like I said, like he was going through a difficult time and it was, you know, if you look at it from the outside, it's like, oh, don't go there. It's just too messy. But but at the same time, like you don't come across that that often. So the night that you were taken, you and Aaron had gotten into kind of like an argument, disagreement fight. What was it about?

Can you just kind of like give context? Well, yeah. So about a month before that, I had found text messages on his phone of him communicating with his ex. And at that point, it was disrespectful to me and he wasn't being honest to me about it. And so I kind of put my foot down and was like, OK, enough's enough. Like I either you go, if you, that's what you want to do, go back to her, do that, or let me go. Like, just give me enough respect to let me go. And he had talked about going to therapy, but hadn't done it yet. So at that point, he really, I think it was like more of putting a mirror up to his face and going, okay, what am I doing? Why am I doing this?

This isn't helping me. It's not healthy for me. So he started going to therapy, and he started trying to show me that it was me that he wanted to be with and that he wanted to try to make this work. So it was a lot of back and forth. And I wasn't going to go over to his house that night. I told him like, like, if you want to start over, we can start fresh. You can take me out on a date. Like, I don't want to go back there because they had lived together in that house too. So it was like, you know, I don't, I don't, I just, yeah, I need you to like court me again. But then, you know, he was like, I think it'll be a serious conversation.

We should, you know, not be in public like talking about it. And so we was like, OK, fine, I'll come over. I brought a pizza and nothing about that night was heated or confrontational at all. It was more emotional. You know, it was like, okay, am I willing to forgive him? Can I believe that he wants to move forward? Can he show me that? And so, yeah, we talked for hours and we got to that place. You know, it was emotional, but it was sweet. And we decided, okay, yeah, gonna we're gonna try this out and give it a shot and when you talk about that night what does it make you feel because you're talking about like

oh my gosh I went through this with this guy and we finally kind of had a really good conversation I feel like everyone listening can relate when it's finally like okay we need to get to the bottom of it are we doing this thing or we not if no hard feelings. I'm going to go on with my life, but like, let's hash it out. Let's figure it out. And you did. When you look back knowing later that night when you went to bed, your whole life was going to change. Like, how do you feel about that night when you even talk about it? You know, I've been asked that. It's like, would you take it all back? Like, if you, would you not go over there? Would you not forgive him? Would you you know, if that meant that none of this would have happened, but in the end, I'm gonna

get emotional. It would mean that I wouldn't have him in my life. And he is my person, you know, like I knew that as soon as I met him. And there's just like, I didn't really believe and I was giving up on the idea of like your your partner, your other half, like a soulmate, you know, I was 29. And I'm like, the shit's not real. Like, it's just, and I was kind of getting like, solidified and not like, okay, I'm just gonna be independent and focus on my career. And like, I'm good. Like, I don't need that shit. And, um, yeah, meeting him, I was like, oh, wait, maybe, uh, maybe there's not all douchebags out there. Maybe like some genuine, like, you know, focused and, and he had like, he had a good family and he was really sweet about his family. And, um, he shared similar values and interests. And like, we just would

hang out for hours and talk. And still, like 10 years later, we just hang out and talk to each other. It's like, what do you talk about? I think that was something the police were like, what do you like? What do you mean? No, you were fighting. And he's like, no, we weren't fighting. We were just we were talking. We were listening to each other. We were hearing each other. And so, I mean, I think it's sad that some people may not understand that. But I feel lucky that I've gotten that from him. When you went to bed that night, were you like, okay, we're gonna try to make this work? Like, were you in good spirits going to bed? Would you say? Oh, yeah. I mean, we were, like, just wrapped up in each other. And yeah, going to bed, just thinking, okay, like, you know, I mean, we were emotionally exhausted. But like, okay, like, this is this feels like a fresh start. Like that ghost of the relationship

of the past is gone. It's lifted. It's free. Okay. Like we can start to move forward. Can you take me to the moment where you knew, wait, someone's in my house and I'm in danger? And like, were you just like dead asleep, woken up in this moment? Yeah. I mean, I was dead asleep. I thought I was dreaming. So I could hear a strange man's voice. And it's like my subconscious

was conflicted. Like, it was almost like it was saying, don't wake up, don't wake up. And but then I mean, it just it was relentless. And I just suddenly like my eyes shot open. And my back was turned to where the voice was coming from but I saw a flashing white light on the wall and like three red laser pointers crossing the walls and then they disappear over our bodies and so instantly I knew like holy fuck there's people surrounded they have guns like this is real I mean I the fear I mean I I don't even know if I could ever like accurately describe how horrifying that is and and instantly knowing like there's people here they've got things set up like they're not just coming in to steal a laptop or something like this is like what what is this why yeah did you like say anything to aaron or

was this just too crazy that you both were just like stunned shocked didn't say anything i think initially we're both just in shock like frozen trying to register you know you're pulled from like a deep sleep to then that is just as like your body has has to have time to adjust and and then when you do adjust and you're realizing what it is uh especially with like guns facing you i mean what do you do, scream? Like, you know, you don't know what these people are here for, what they're capable of. Yeah.

So we just listened and then the voice just kept talking also. So it wasn't really like we had time to do anything else. He just then started saying like he was having me tie Aaron up and he was kind of put zip ties at the end of the bed and he backed away. And then he was telling me how to tie up Aaron's hands and feet together. And yeah, the whole time I'm just like shaking, going like, thinking like, am I going to do this right? Am I, you know, I'm just like in my head about it. Like, I hope I don't fuck this up. I hope that they don't, you know, and, and, and as I'm like freaking out internally, the voice keeps talking, saying like, you're doing a good job. You are staying calm. It was very like distinct, almost robotic. It was just so like, there was so many little pieces of it that was just so hard to even process because it isn't what you would normally think, right?

Like you watch true crime or horror movies and you see like this like crazy passionate violence and realizing that criminals can be patient and in control and planned out was like even more horrifying to process right because i get what you're saying like you would probably anticipate if someone was gonna play it out in their mind it would be like screaming and yelling and like just yelling at you to do things and the fact that you're like there was like this calmness about yeah this situation and yet it's so hectic but like how is this person showing patience in the wake of like you don't know at this point what they're gonna do when did you realize like oh they're here to take me because I'm assuming like when you're tying Aaron up did you think like they're gonna take him no I thought well how, what did I not think? I thought, I mean, he woke us up saying, this is a robbery.

We are not here to hurt you and repeated that over and over. Stay calm. This is a robbery. And the fact that there wasn't immediate violence, I'm thinking and hoping and also just to keep myself calm, like, OK, maybe this is just a robbery. So they're planning on clearing out Aaron's belongings and they're going to have us tied up. And they they put headphones over our ears and played prerecorded messages of instructions and forced us to take sedatives. And even in that moment, like I hear the other people downstairs, I hear drawers opening, like there's a drill going. So even in that moment, I'm thinking, okay,

maybe this is just a robbery. And they're just making sure they're going to tie us up and blindfold us and drug us. So we pass out and they have enough time to get a clean getaway and we'll come to the next morning and then it's all over. OK, fine, whatever. Like, we'll be safe. But, you know, you're still like in the back of your mind going like, you know, are they going to torture us? Are they going to rape me? Are they going to rape him and me? Are they going to make us why? Like, you know, there's those stories of serial rapists doing, you know, so it's just, but you have to like, also try to figure out how to stay calm and present. Because if at least for myself, in those moments, I'm thinking if I freak out, like, and I lose my sanity, then that's gonna

make it riskier for me because I'm not clear headed. And I'm not, you know, like, I might not pick up on some information that could get me out of this alive. So like, I just need to I just Yeah, I just need to calm myself down, stay focused, pay attention, listen and, and see. Yeah. Um, but the night progressively got worse and they separated me from Aaron and then brought me downstairs and, and then he came in cause there was just one man who was speaking and it's the same man who held me captive. Um, yeah, I came in and he said, this wasn't meant for you. This was meant for, and he named Aaron's ex by her first and last name. And he said, we need to figure out what we're

gonna do and I mean I'm just sitting there going like what like how like how is this meant for anybody and what the fuck is this and then he comes back in and he says you know know, we're going to take you for 48 hours. We're going to put you in the trunk of Aaron's car, put you into a trunk of another car. And Aaron's going to have to complete some tasks for you to be released. Were you just silent in that moment? Like, did you say anything or you were just in shock? Just in shock.

I think I said, said okay at some point. At that point, the sedatives had already been kicking in. I didn't know what was happening upstairs with Aaron, but I was hopeful that nothing was happening because I didn't hear any struggle or yelling or anything like that. And I mean, that's really how they could be successful, right? Like you use the person against the other, you know, if you mess up, if you do anything, we are going to hurt your partner, the person you love. So I think things would perhaps be a little different if it was just me, you know, like if it's like I can risk getting hurt if it's my life I'm risking. But if I might be hurting someone else, then that changes everything.

Like it's so interesting, again, because like we never know what we're going to do in these situations until you're in it. And when you talk about it, Deniseise of like your body just like knows what to do in these situations like you having the wherewithal to be like stay so calm i cannot lose my mind even though i want to scream i want to cry i want to do all the things i want to shut down i have to really be focused and listen i remember you talking about the car ride and even though you were on these sedatives you were kind of like trying as hard as you could to stay awake, right? And like just track like, okay, we turned out of the neighborhood, like, where are we going? Like, how long do you think that lasted in the trunk when they put you in there that you were trying to just get a gauge of where you were going?

Well, in the first car, it was hard to breathe. So as much as I was trying to pay attention, I was really just trying to not panic because I was, I felt like I was starting to lose it and I knew it wasn't going to help me to hyperventilate. And so that's where I was just like, okay, just focus on this. And at one point he stopped and like grabbed my arm and he's like do not scream do not yell and I hadn't said anything so it was just like confusing and threatening and um and then he stops somewhere and puts me in the trunk of another car and it's smaller but I could breathe easier um and starts going and I could tell we get on a freeway and yeah I'm thinking, can I like kick out a taillight? Like some other shit you see in movies. But it's like, I don't know what kind of car I'm in. I

don't know where the taillight is. Like I'm crammed. Like, you know, what, like what do I do? And I think as I was just kind of like cycling through all of that, eventually I passed out from the sedatives. And at this point when you wake up and you're being brought to this cabin, like, do you have any concept if you're even still in California? Like, do you know where you are? No, I don't know where I am. Um, but I knew that it had been several hours. My, my, the whole side of my body was going numb um and when he opened the trunk the way that the light was I could tell it was probably like later morning um and he was like struggling to get me out of the trunk and I knew we weren't like under a garage like because I could see the light but then he like drops me and then fumbles with me and drags me into darkness.

And I'm thinking like, where the fuck can we be where no one is seeing this right now? And I don't hear cars. I don't hear, you know, so I'm thinking we're probably in either the woods or like a big, more like vacant lot of land or something. So I knew we were remote. I could tell it was a like single unit home because there was no noises or plumbing or whatever from anyone else. So first of all, I can't even imagine how terrifying like when you realize you're basically in the middle of nowhere potentially. And that thought realizing like, wait, no one can see me. No one can hear me. In that moment, like what were you thinking? I guess I was just constantly thinking of all just the horrific things that could happen,

like the possible torture, like if, like, is this what these people do? Like, is this what they they're really in it for? You know, because at the time, too, I'm like, Aaron, like, he has some money, but he doesn't have a lot of money. So like, we don't have family members who are public figures or like, political or, or anything like we're just really just ordinary people. Like, like, I had some money in my mutual funds. But again, it's like nothing substantial. So it really, yeah, I was, uh, it's like, yeah. Um, yeah, it's hard to really think about because, um, you, yeah, you envision just all the possible ways you could be tortured and killed and like am I gonna bleed out slowly am I gonna be raped by how many of them how like

how am I going to be able to face and tolerate any of that? But I think in that moment, too, knowing that or thinking, like, maybe this is why they do this. I told myself, like, I'm like, they've clearly systematically laid it out to where I have no defense possible to me. I'm isolated, bound. I have sedatives, blindfolded, like no matter what, even with all of that, I'm still a female. Like I'm a woman to a man. Like I can't outrun a man. I cannot fight a man. Like I, you know, um, so I told myself like the only thing I can control is how I react and respond. So if like, this is what gets them off of, this is what motivates them to like, you know, submit a

cowering, screaming woman, then I'm not going to give that to them. I'm not going to, I'm not going to do that. And if it is my last moment alive, I'm not gonna go out, like, screaming and crying in horror. Like, I'm going to stay calm and focused and be proud of the life I've lived. Like, I'm not gonna give them that. They don't get that. They don't get that last moment of my life. So in a lot of ways throughout it, like, there's, you know, you have to almost detach because you can't really be present in like the horror of the situation. And you have to think of all the possibilities that anything can go wrong. So it's like, if I scream, what's the possibility that they're going to fight back? Like the more time I spent with him to like next to him feeling his energy, like, yes, he was polite throughout. Like it was a weird it was a deliberate, like, like almost like he wanted me to fight back, you know, to, so he could then, yeah, assert his dominance. And so I just felt like I was, you know, I was just handling

the whole situation and him with care. And, um, yeah, he would talk to me a lot in captivity and tell me that he was in the military and had PTSD and couldn't live a normal life. So that's why he's doing something like this. And so I just felt like, okay, like I felt like maybe there's something in his past that's like justifying him to do this. And so I don't want to alienate him. I don't want to create a situation where it's like, you're a crazy monster. You're a bad guy. I just would turn and listen and try to connect with him and talked about therapy. I talked about a childhood trauma. I just thought really like my only defense is to get me the fuck out of here but then like knowing

you have to use your your best possible social skills in that moment like you're basically you never really really get to see him right you're mostly blindfolded so you're like you're saying you're literally reading his like energy of like his breaths and the way like his tone and how he's speaking. Like you're having to just hear these like sensory moments and having to like gauge how to respond. How did that mentally affect you being like I have to be kind almost to my captor? Like did it ever have you questioning like is he not that bad of a guy uh yeah and that was part of it like the psychological manipulation and that like I could tell that that was part of it you know it was so deliberate so I just kind of fed into it and also too it's like he would reward

me for good behavior so like after he raped me the first time I was allowed when I was by myself to take the blindfold off and he gave me like toiletries to shower with and food and you know so it's like I could see all of this it was a way to try to condition me and at the same time like I had to take gratitude and the fact that I wasn't being tortured and he kept saying like oh don't worry we're gonna release you and I'm like you're gonna kill me and he's like no we're gonna to release you. And I'm like, you're going to kill me. And he's like, no, we're going to release you. It's like, how do I trust that? But I had to like connect and have him trust me because if he gave me a little bit of freedom, a little bit of reward, and I immediately tried to run or scream or fight, then that would show him that he can't. And then maybe that would mean he wouldn't trust that he could release me. So like, part of it was like knowing what the

conditioning was. And then also just like, at a certain point, you know, it's like, I have to believe that he's not all bad. Like, I have to believe that he's a human being with feelings and that there's some truth to when he says, like, you don't deserve this and I don't want to dehumanize you. And, you know, so it's like, I want to believe that because I want to believe that I'm going to get out of it alive. first of all i'm so sorry like i i genuinely cannot fathom what you went through and it's just incredible that you are able to tell your story today and sitting here. And I commend you for even being able to do things like this right now and talk through this. And I can imagine it's really fucking hard.

When you're going through this, like, mental warfare of, like, appease, appease, appease. And then he's telling you, like, I'm not going to kill you. I'm not going gonna kill you i'm not gonna kill you like before the assault did he like warn you well i mean just being a woman in a situation like that of course your first thought is like i'm gonna be raped like it's like even if that wasn't the intention because you said that you know this is where a black market startup company were hired to fulfill personal and financial debts and we were hired to target Aaron and and he kept naming Aaron's ex and uh and everything was about protocol like I I have to drug you. Uh, I have to, you know, I have to do this and, you know, so again, there's like that bit of hope, maybe that's not what this is about,

but it's like, well, but here you have a woman, a body at your disposal. Like you, you, you are in complete control over it. So like anyone who inherently, who decides that a kidnapping for ransom is a good idea, like a good business model, you know, there's something really dark there. And so it's like, what's, what's gonna, you know, stop them from them from doing that? And yeah, later that first day, he came in to say because it wasn't meant for me, they didn't have any information on me. So they were going to record him having sex with me. And if they thought I was ever going to go speak to the police they would release it on the internet how did that make you feel like thinking like were you even at that point were you even scared like were you like in your mind like fuck it release it on the internet or

at that point I just was like of course this is happening I mean you know it had been hours of wondering like like, if that was going to happen. So I like, as much as I'm feeling like the soul sucked out of me, I'm also like, of course, of course, this is going to happen. And, you know, at that point, too, it's like, I mean, what what do I say? Like what? Like you put me in the trunk of a car like there's nothing I can say it's supposed to look consensual or. Yeah, and it's just like this how there I just, I could feel myself fully detached. Like I was floating overhead watching all this happen and I just had, I just had to detach. But yeah, I was like, this, this, this is going to happen again. Like, I know it's going to happen again. And, and then the next day he said you know the

footage wasn't good enough and this time you have to you have to seem like you like it so we have to kiss and it has to look like we were like in a relationship and now in hindsight when you look back on that like the protocol and like we need to film this for that like do you believe like it was all bullshit it was all just in this person's imagination to like make you feel a certain way or do you actually believe there was certain things protocol wise that he was actually following? Well, I, I know that there was more than one person involved because of what we saw and heard and the night of the home invasion and also in captivity, like a different car pulled up and people came out and came inside and they were talking and then left um as far as like i believe that they set up these things as protocol to um make them believe that they weren't as bad as they are

you know it's like it was that kind of this military sense of like, I have to do this and then I have to do this and I have to do this. I'm going to set up this whole situation. But these are all rules that you created. And so this is all of your doing. And even when I would say like, you're going to kill me, I know you're going to kill me. And he's like, no, even if that's decided by the other people, like where I'm not, I'm

not going to let that happen. I have an escape plan for my family. And it's like, so you're still here torturing me for two days and raping me, but you have an escape plan. Like you don't have like you have to go through with this. Like you but you I mean, at least you have like some measure of what you won't do. But it's, you know, I just, I mean, yeah, I think all of it was ways to make them feel better about attacking someone. Like, I don't, you know, I have to do this. No, you don't.

You don't have to fucking do anything. What was your lowest moment in the cabin? The second rape. Because it was very much like a kind of like, go fuck yourself. And like, fine, you want me to perform? I'll fucking perform. And like, you're not gonna break me and the only way I was able to get through it was to like just picture that it was Aaron that I was with and that like just haunted me and but like I had a call upon something to like get me through it.

Yeah. I mean, at that point it was already quite low and, and then he came in at one point to show me an article with my dad speaking. I like read the words of my dad's like telling me to be strong. That the family was there. Like I couldn't keep reading the sentence. I just, just like keeled over. It was just crying. And he like put his hand on me and I'm just like, fuck off. Like, yeah. And I think he said something like, oh, this must be real for you now.

And it's like, no, like I can't imagine what my family's going through because that whole time I'm like, okay, I got to be strong and get through this. And I just could not allow myself to think that my family knew I was missing or knew anything. Because I knew what was happening to me, but I can only imagine, like, as parents, like, what would be going on in your mind, like, wondering, like, what's happening to your little girl? that moment he showed me that to break me and like I was just so fucking pissed at him for succeeding why do you think he showed you that he wanted it to rub it in I think because he kept saying throughout the whole thing you're so strong wow like I didn you know, like he'd say, like, we've studied how victims respond in situations like this. And, and like, I didn't expect you to like, you just kept complimenting me and like, saying how shocked, which was even more reason for me to not give him any thing, you know, like, yeah, bro, like, I'm, I'm not gonna. Yeah, I'm you're not going to see me scared. Yeah, but yeah, it's like it was sadistic and in a psychological way. When you were sitting alone in moments when he wasn't with you, like what did you what kept you going? Like what would you think about

that gave you hope to be like, keep it together? We've got this. My family, my life, my work, Aaron, like, I just kept thinking about my future. Like, I, it was a balance of like coming to peace with the end of my life because I didn't want if that last moment came I didn't want to be surprised and shocked and terrified and have it just and then that's it like I wanted to be solid in the fact that like, I, even if I wasn't 30 yet, like I still lived a good life and I had a lot to be proud of and like how lucky am I to have the family I have, the friends I have. And, you know, like I sought out to get my doctorate and be a physical therapist. And

I did that, you know, and I, I, but then I was also just trying to focus on my future. And like, if I get out of this, what's, what, you know, what's next. And, and so then that could motivate me to continue on. And I like called upon anyone and everyone that I could. Like, you know, like I'm alone and God knows where. And then there's this human over here who's just like terrorizing me. But I was just like trying to call upon any energy I could. And like, it's crazy, like after being released and like I mean what's sad about it is there was a lot of people when I was in captivity that were praying for me

and wishing me well and I felt that you're trying to like mourn yourself as you are potentially about to die and that is like no one should have to do that and to know the way that it went when you came out let's talk about that because this is where it's like everyone fucking failed you your kidnapper tells you he's gonna bring you home did he explain why uh he said that he was gonna release me um but there was media coverage. Aaron had gone to the police and it would be, I think he used the term, it was too hot in the Bay area to, to release me. And he also said that he wanted me to be able to get to family. Like I've been through enough. Um, and he asked where, you know, where my family lived and he had my purse, my belongings, and it had my mom's home address on it. So it was like,

I can't lie. And also do you want to be able to get to someone? And so we agreed on a cross street. And he even said, like, well, what if your parents aren't home? But I've got childhood friends who live walking distance. I was just like, okay, sure, like, if you're going to do it, please. Yeah, like, and so we agreed on a cross roads that was, like like a half a mile from my mom's. I mean, even on the drive down, like he gave me a higher sedative and appease me and help make sure that I comply. And so when he woke me up and said, we're here, like I just, you know, he said he was in an alley out of you from the street. And when he drove off, like, I still wasn't sure if I was actually where he said I was until I, like, stepped out and saw the name of the street and was like, I'm home.

In that moment, just on the street, because I know it didn't last long, in your brain, did you think, like, I'm free, I'm safe? No, I mean, I never really felt that I mean physically like okay like what he's gone like the car like I've heard it drive off it's gone but before he had me out took me out of the car he was like you know yeah Aaron went to the police and uh you're gonna have to talk to them and you can say whatever I told you about the organization, but you can't say two things. You can't say anything about any of us being in the military or anything about us having sex, his words. And, you know, we know where your family live. Like, we monitor victims for years.

Based on everything that he had done and said so far. Like, yeah, I believe that he, they would be watching me. They would be monitoring me. And so although physically free, I felt like I was going to be confined and restrained by their threats forever. So when he releases you, I understand what you're saying. You're like, as much as I was free physically, I felt mentally still captive knowing that this person is like, we're watching your family. Don't do this. Don't say this to the police.

You're kind of beholden because, again, you're now aware of what this person and these people are capable of. And so surviving this awful traumatic experience should have been the end of it for you. You get out and you have a complete new set of problems once you're released from your captor. When did you start to realize that the police and media didn't believe anything that you were about to tell them? I think there was moments. So a neighbor at my dad's, my dad wasn't home. She recognized me, brought me in within minutes. There was two Huntington Beach officers there and I spoke to them for like an hour and a half. And as I'm speaking to them, I hear helicopters outside, like the media is collecting. There's people, dogs barking.

It was like this. And they're like, oh, yeah, it's a media storm out there. And I'm just like, I mean, I thought like maybe there was like a local report from like what he showed me in captivity. Like I had no clue like that it was aired you know all over and and when I'm speaking to the police I one moment I see him holding a recording device by his side and he didn't tell me he was recording and that was like uh like that felt threatening and I had told the officers too, I'm afraid of them coming back. I'm afraid of what I say here is going to be leaked to the media and they'll find out. And it was just like a really horribly conflicted position to be in because I didn't want to lie. But then I'm like, if I speak to them, the chances are I might have to. And so I don't want to do something

that could maybe save me but hurt my family later on. And on and um um i was also i remember there was waiting like they oh they said they needed to talk to the vallejo police so we're gonna get a hold of them we're gonna get a hold of them and time was going on like just something didn't feel right and then when they finally did get connected with the lead vallejo detective he he had said that he was going to be offering a proffer of agreement, which is basically immunity. a victim of a crime like I don't and it made it all more terrifying because of how the whole kidnapping went like how arrogant my captor was he was like yeah there's media but like it's okay it's gonna be good PR for our group it shows us shows you know people that they can hire us and we are not gonna like overreact and kill the victim and it's just like and and even his threats of like we'll know what you say like we'll always be watching and I was just like and and even his threats of like, we'll know what you say, like we'll always be watching are attorneys and they're like, no, we need a criminal defense attorney. Like no more statements. got an attorney especially the detectives themselves it's like you offered me a legal

agreement and I don't know what the fuck that is I don't know what that means I don't know what my rights are like I don't know anything like I'm like how do you expect me to navigate this like so yeah I'm gonna consult with an attorney but especially when you're like they're offering me like immunity you're like we I I was just kidnapped. Yeah. What do you mean me immunity? Like, don't you want me to, don't you want to go catch the guy that. Right. And that's why I just felt like, like they're framing us, like someone's involved in here. Like it was just so like, none of it made sense. I didn't like who, then who do you turn to? Like who, who do you go to? So can you quickly just like paint the picture?

Like, what were the theories people had? What did they believe happened? They, I don't fucking know. I mean, because all of it doesn't make sense. So like, Aaron called 911 and went to the police station and told them what happened. And they immediately said he was a murderer and that, yeah, like they're going to find my dead body. Like I'm looking for a dead Denise, not alive Denise. You killed her. You know, either you could be

a cold calculated monster. You can admit you made a mistake. And he just endured 18 hours of interrogation because he thought I can't admit to something I didn't do. And if just endured 18 hours of interrogation because he thought, I can't admit to something I didn't do. And if I push back and get an attorney, I'm going to alienate them. And like my main focus is them finding her. So we just thought like, if I endure a little more, a little more, they're going to see the truth and they'll try to find her. And then I was forced to record a proof of life in captivity. So the next day when that was sent then they immediately went from like you guys were fighting so you murdered her to then i made this up to get back at him but then when i'm released it's the both of us in on it together to get famous?

I don't like to like someone at a theory about like wanting to be like reality TV or like, I don't fucking know. And so Aaron's brother is an FBI agent and he's like, just at the, like she, I had worked in LA right before moving up to Vallejo. He's like, so she, she moves from LA to try to like pursue her you know her fame in Vallejo California like what the like it just none of it none of it made sense I think another theory that was so terrifying when I was watching the doc was like the fact that Gone Girl the movie with Ben Affleck had come out and everyone was like

this is the real life Gone Girl like she's faking her death and then coming back and it's like how fucked that people were comparing something that actually happened to you and being like maybe she's trying to be like the movie like when you started seeing that, like, did you want to fucking scream? I mean, I, I didn't watch any of that actually. Like the, I was released and then had to immediately go find an attorney, like got to him at 10 o'clock at night. And he's like, look, the Vallejo police just held a press conference and completely threw you under the bus and said it was all a lie. So the world thinks you're a liar.

Like you're not going to be able to work again, like you're, you know, so I'm like, literally, like everything I had focused on in captivity of like, I want to get back to my life was just taken away from me. And I still was fucking terrified that, like, they were going to come back and kill me. And so I'm like, do I speak to them? Do I not? Like I finally do. And then the next two days is being interrogated by not just the Vallejo police, but also the FBI. I had to go in for a SART exam and my criminal defense attorney is telling me like, look, like it's it's really grueling. It's like a four hour long thing. Like they're going to like strip you down. They take pictures of you. They, you know, examine you internally. And I'm like, okay,

like how bad can it be until like I'm fucking there? I mean, it's like the last humiliating like thing that you could go through like so soon after your body being attacked and violated. But it's like, okay, like, I've got to do my duty. You know, like, I got to make sure that this doesn't happen to another woman, another person. And then all of that, it was just like, used against me. And remember, the second day before I was going in for questioning with the FBI, my attorney said, like, they're calling you gone girl. And I'm like, well, what does that mean? Is that a bad thing? Like, I don't I didn't read the book. I didn't I didn't see the movie. I didn't know what the I heard about it. But like, like, is that bad?

He's like, okay, like, we're gonna go in for questioning, you know, and it's just and then I think like I watched one Nancy Grace clip and was like, I can't I can't fucking watch a thing. I think it's also so sad to hear like how many people have said to women, like, why didn't you just get like an exam like after you were raped, like, why didn't you get an exam? And it's like, to go through the most violating traumatic experience to then basically reopen your body again to be violated. It's like, I just it's such an awful headspace that people even feel comfortable to ask a question to a woman that's already been violated. Like, why don't basically why don't I want to get violated again? Is that you're asking me and it's and it's so frustrating in history we've seen so many people like she didn't get the rape kit because it didn't happen and it's like it's so small-minded and it's also just such from a male perspective and i know you were dealing with a lot of men in this case that were looking at you wondering why you didn't act a certain way i mean

i wrote down people were claiming you weren't believable because you acted too calm you didn't seem physically injured enough and you weren't sad enough how did that make you feel i mean in the moment i was just shocked by it all. I mean, even the questioning, like the FBI agent asked, like, did you scream? Like, no. Why? I was woken from a dead sleep. There was multiple people there. Like I didn't. And I think he even asked, like, did you think about screaming? Like somebody asked me that. I remember saying like, well, I thought about it. Yeah, I thought I thought about all the things, all the things I could possibly do. Are you fucking kidding me? Like every second I'm trying to like solve the math problem in my head. Like

what's the probability of me screaming to get me out alive? Nope. OK. Like what about me fighting? I'm drugged. Nope. OK. okay can I run I don't know where I'm at no like you know like it's just also like what defense do I have I have my ability to connect with human beings so okay like that's my best defense right now and it got me out alive so like fuck all of them for their stupid shit. And you know what, like just what's crazy about it too, is like they're trained to know better. So like Aaron's brother's an FBI agent. He's also in the army. I've had a friend's husband who's a Marine. They're like, they teach us if you are ever kidnapped or taken hostage, that you build

a report like you you figure out how to survive, you get food, water, and you build a report to get yourself out. Like what you did is what we're trained to do. Like, I don't want to be like sexist or like put people in a box of like, you know, because they're're dudes they don't get it but like something isn't clicking and it's not carrying over like I know that they get training that not all victims act the same but they don't treat victims that way so it's just like what what has to happen and then there's a female detective who is the one that like looked outside of the box and saw the whole picture and said, nope, there's another victim out there. I got to find her. And she's the one that like saved us and saved our lives. And so it's just,

you know, and you hear of other cases where it's like the female detective who is linking. And so it's like, I mean, I think more women in general in the environment with them and like if they actually listen and heard them would be helpful. Well, I think even what you're saying, Denise, too, is like we we experience life completely different than men. It's like, oh, I'm sure you would have screamed and then you would have tried to lunge at him and punch him in the face and tackled him to the ground we can't do that right we physically can we know we're we're smarter than that why didn't you scream every woman in the room would be like duh like of course you didn't scream but it's like because men are so privileged in those type of moments to just use their like brute force like we don't we can't rely on that and so it's just heartening to hear you're staring at all these men being like what do you mean did i scream like of course i didn't scream and they're like why as if you're guilty for something you're lying

you must be lying i mean everything was about me or aaron like neither one of us behaved in the right way and it was helpful later later on to hear from an expert in coercive control, Laura Richards. She has a podcast, Real Crime Profile. But she was saying it was studied in men primarily, like this fight or flight response. It's fight, flight, freeze. And then there's also fawn. And that's the woman's primarily more innate defense of like the please and appease like I know I can't fight I know I can't flee like you win so then what else can I do and and that's what a lot of women have to do and it is like really infuriating that it's like this day and age why don't like we should know better we know better we should right it's so interesting you said that

i just interviewed a woman who was attacked by a man um and it was megan fox talking about being assaulted and she was like i fond and like i know that was like my initial reaction is don't fight back de-escalate the situation and as women that's like our way to like get ourselves out alive and again men are just like huh like you didn't fight back like because I wanted to live yeah exactly like you endure one horror so you can save yourself from another and so you could save your life when you're talking to me about this like I'm trying to even comprehend like you go through this dramatic experience you come out no one's believing you like did in a way that almost feel worse you're like yeah yeah 100% what I deal the yeah the processing through everything like the it, like the what happened after the kidnapping absolutely has been the hardest part to deal with, because I think you can kind of like understand that there's people out there who are motivated to cause harm.

And it's just a really unfortunate, horrible situation that it like we were targeted it happened when you go through a traumatic event you want to call upon your community like the people in your life other humans to help get you through it to help give you strength and support like you were trained your whole life call 9-1-1 if something bad happens bad happens, call 911, and they'll help. And they only made it worse. And by their public statements, like, people saw my name and saw my face, and they thought, gone girl, liar, hoaxer, fraud, you know. And, like, how can I work again?

Like, you know, like, how can I put my hands on another human and have them like, trust me with their well being? They think I'm some con artist. And so like, everything I worked for everything that meant something to me was taken from me. And so it, it was Yeah, it was devastating. Like, and it's just was the constant. Like, I'm not performing well enough for any of you, like from captivity, and assaults, and then, you know, you're not emotional enough. You're not I mean, even though I was sitting there, like with my head in my hands sobbing to these officers like somehow that's not emotional enough like I'm drugged but like I just uh not yeah I mean everything even like things that my family told the police like oh she she runs half marathons and she she's a fighter and she's strong and they they use that against me. Like, oh, you're strong. Like, well, I mean, I'm not really like I'm in shape, I guess.

But I'm not like I'm not fast enough. Like I remember telling the law enforcement, like I run with Aaron. Like I don't catch I can't like we're not on pace. Like I know my strengths and I know my limitations. And that's like really important for me to figure out what to use in a situation like that. Denise, I am so sorry you had to deal with that because just again, as you're talking about it, I'm like to go from the absolute lowest moment of your life and you're wanting to like fling yourself to everyone and be like, I'm back. I'm alive. I made it. Oh my God. And everyone just slams the fucking door in your face and is like what the

fuck were you doing you were trying to get famous off of this you're like no i i was just assaulted and abused and like mentally fucked with for how many days like listen to me and no one believes you like i cannot imagine the psychological warfare that must have put you in a spiral of like how did it affect the during that time you're like day-to-day life like did friends turn on you my close friends Aaron's close friends they all supported us and all believed in us and that that was you, and our families like that, you know, cause you, uh, you can hear and see like how things can get twisted with family or, you know, like the possibilities of that, but like both of our families unconditionally like embraced us and each other. And, and he hadn't met

most of my family yet, know so it's like hi sir I'm dating your daughter like you know like it's uh like nice to meet you under these circumstances it was just all so crazy um but you know the little bit of stuff I looked on on social media, the Facebook and like some people who had originally like, oh, you know, she's missing. And then they would post articles, you know, highlighting Gone Girl and going, I don't get it. And kind of like jumped into that whole that whole thing. And that was another thing that was really devastating because it's like, OK, maybe like this, you know, officer was misogynistic and stupid, thinks I'm gone, girl. But like someone who knows me, you know, and then you think back to all the things that you've done in your life and you're like, have I given people an excuse to think that I'm this horrible person? And so there's like a lot of self blame and like the loss of self and identity. Yeah, I mean, it's people, you know, go out and give their opinion and their hate thinking like well I'm allowed to I'm justified to it's

just words like it's it it causes a lot a lot of trauma a lot of trauma and it's like you're you're no better just because you're not hitting someone doesn't mean that you're not causing severe damage until he was like found what was your lowest moment when you were out i think the lowest moment was after two days of being interrogated the fbi agent saying there's a lot of inconsistencies in your story and essentially I don't believe you. And he told my attorney, he was 99% sure I was lying and that my attorney should watch Gone Girl. It was just kind of like, like there's like, I, all I had was the truth. Aaron, same thing. All we did was just give them, give them the truth. And it was just like, I mean, it's like you're hitting your head against a wall.

Like you're in a twilight zone. I mean. I'm sure you've had through writing the book and the documentary and interviews like you've had probably some time to think about it. Like, why do you think women have to work so fucking hard to be believed? I think it's still just really easy for people to think that women are attention-seeking and overly dramatic and conniving. I mean, it's really sad. Like it, like even the responses from other women that I got, I was like, wow, like, do you view yourself this way? This is how you see women. This is really disturbing, but I mean, I think a lot is set up and and society and I mean still even now with the Netflix series out and like the truth out people still criticize Aaron and I not emoting enough and not being believable or just being like vanilla or I mean you name it

well also like not you you literally talk about like dissociating from your body that can take like a lifetime to like completely repair and re-engage and like get yourself back to a place that you can even like go on with your day-to-day life and not like every day i'm sure you think about this every single day this is with you for the rest of your life yeah like there's parts that you have to compartmentalize so you can survive so that you can be with your children so that you can smile and it's like you're so right it's like if they cry too much then like they're performing if you don't cry enough then you're soulless and it's like there is no right answer and the fucked up thing is all the judgment is coming from people who have

never experienced it how the fuck do you know how you would respond in this situation well and that's where i mean i'm hopeful that the true crime genre is changing and shifting and evolving because that's you know people had the wrong perception of how people behave in extreme situations and again i can like get why people in the public might you know if their only experience is by watching something but when law enforcement goes to fiction and uses that as a measure to judge people that's where it's really terrifying but like honestly I finally watched Gone Girl probably like nine months after the kidnapping. Like I couldn't face it. And when I watched it, I was like, it actually released a lot of that self-blame because I was like, it didn't matter what I did. I mean, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. It didn't matter. Like they believed what they believed and whatever I did or said was only going to fit that box. And so I was able to kind of release

myself from it. Like this wasn't about me. Like that's not, it's not me. It's, it's their view of someone, of women, of whoever, but it's, it's not me. No, it's like, I remember talking to Amanda Knox and her being like, all of a sudden I turned around and it was like about like a, it's like I remember talking to Amanda Knox and her being like, all of a sudden I turned around and it was like about like a it was like a sex case where I was like this crazy woman that was like having threesomes. And Amanda was like, wait, what? Like, how did? Yeah. Someone just died. Like, can we go find the person that like I'm having threesomes with my roommate?

Like, this is not. And people love to for especially for women. There's like this narrative. You're right that it's like they want us to play into this role and i think why it's hard to believe us is because people don't want to because it will completely disrupt the societal norms of like men dictate women are like emotional and erratic and dramatic and that's how everyone wants to be because if we actually start listening to women and we start taking what they're saying at face value what is that going to do to the people that run the entire fucking country yeah i i think people just don't want to admit how bad it is because then if you know how bad it is and you're not doing anything about it then you're complicit

when your kidnapper was arrested and people started to realize you were telling the truth the whole time how did that make you feel i mean it all it all felt horrible. I mean, it really did. Because when we found out about it, he got caught for attacking another family. And then we were reading in the FBI affidavit that there were calls that were placed the first night I was in captivity that the police could have traced back to And even if for whatever delay they couldn't have saved me and I was still released, they could have explored that and caught him. And instead, they were just so focused on being right that another family was attacked. and it took a detective, a female detective, Misty, to look beyond her case. She noticed there was a blonde hair on goggles and her victims all had dark hair. And so she thought there's more to this. And even that, like she came up with a lot of resistance trying to pursue

that beyond the case that was in front of her. And so it's just like, I mean, I'm glad, like, she's our hero, and we're fortunate to have our life back. And for people to know the truth, but it's just like, so frustrating, because at what cost, you know, and, and even after that, like, there's no. There's no real like, sorry, we did this. We're going to make sure we'll never do it again. You know, so it's just like it's just one disappointment. Didn't the male officers literally get promoted? Yeah. The lead detective got officer of the year.

It's like that year. And we named him in a civil lawsuit to like that year. He like messes up there. Like the you know, the most publicized case they've had in a while get named in a lawsuit, but they like, have to stroke his ego so much to to give him officer of the year. It's just it's fucking disgusting. And even just that right there is such a testament to like the world we fucking live in. What is encouraging is that there are so many law enforcement officers who've reached out to us, especially with the Netflix series coming out and being like, this is awful. This is not how it should be. We want and they're like dedicated to make change. And so, you know, that's something that

Erin and I want to do is like speak with law enforcement and work with them and just see like, how, how can we all do better? Let's work together. And, and, and really what, what's our common goal? Like, let's just all help each other and be there for each other. What would you say to anyone that's a woman listening or watching today that has come forward to share her story in some capacity and wasn't believed? I feel you. I think the biggest thing, I'm just going to get emotional, but just to always believe in yourself. There was times, just both Aaron and I, like, question our own sanity. Like, did this really happen? Am I, am I who I believe I am? Or am I this horrible person that no one can believe in? You know, and so like, I think sometimes it's human nature to to like blame yourself because the only thing you can control is yourself. So if it's your fault, maybe, maybe then you could protect yourself better later on. And so it's kind of hard to actually just, yeah, release yourself from that and go just, it's not my fault. And I did the best I can and I'm not going to let anyone gaslight me. And like, I mean, even with the assaults for me, like I,

like had this view, like, it's not all that bad. It wasn't that bad. And the FBI affidavit, it said there was no signs of nonconsensual sex. So it was just like like time and time again, like it wasn't that bad. She came up unharmed, unscathed, like all these things that just cut away at like devaluing how I felt and what I went through and so yeah I think just like the biggest thing is just to believe in yourself like never give up on yourself that can be really hard sometimes you know how have you been trying and like, what has the process been to like reclaim your relationship to your body

after this? Well, it's still an evolving process. Um, yeah, we've gone through therapy, like Aaron and I've gone through couples therapy, um, individual therapy and, you know, try to work on like moments of gratitude and, and being present in the moment and appreciating just like life in general and all the little moments in life. Um, and I've had body work done and tried meditation and, and, you know, just even like working out boxing, like different ways to like feel empowered and strong, um, speaking, um, kind of taking the narrative back and has been helpful. And even just like journaling,

it was helpful. Um, uh, you know, but it's, yeah, it's still like, just it's, there's a lot of deep pain. So like, I, I am exploring more therapy now and I think just kind of admitting to myself ourselves times when it's like okay like we need to to refocus and um and so I'm I'm looking into EMDR because I hear great things about it so like that's I'm hoping that that can help some of that just because there's like a disconnect, you know, like from logically what I know versus like what my body feels and processes. And so I just need to find a way to reconnect those two things. I think that, like you said, speaking about it in a way that like

you're reclaiming the narrative, I think for women listening, like everyone has to take their own time and like how, you know, when you're ready to try to start to heal again. Like, I know there's probably so many people that are like immediately get into therapy, like throw yourself into therapy. Like some people can't do it immediately. Like you need time. There's layers upon layers of the trauma too. So like trying to peel that back or like something that might be triggering then isn't as much now, but then there's something that's different. You know, I mean, being a parent is like another amazing, wonderful thing. And then also like brings up a lot of fear and worry and but then is also a motivator to

to speak out and demand that things need to be better like things need to be better for them um I think a lot of people I'm sure were like how did you and Aaron decide to stay together because I was thinking about that I'm like on the one the one hand, I would think like, oh my gosh, he's the only person that understands it. He went through with you. On the other hand, I'm sure people would be like, you're each a living reminder of the trauma. Like, was there ever a moment you weren't sure you were going to stay together?

Like, how did you decide? I mean, I think we both knew even just, you know, back up to that night of the home invasion, like we, we knew that we were meant to be together and overcoming something like this and living through it and surviving it together. I mean, it could break a lot of people up for sure. And I could see how that could happen. But we really like support each other and are patient with each other. And we never blamed one another. I mean, I think that's like one of the biggest things. There was never like pointing the finger of like, you should have done this or said this or whatever, you know? So we're like each other's biggest fans and we, we really try to like lift and support each other. And, um, yeah. And, and I think too,

just like having good communication and admitting like, okay, this isn't working right now. Like something needs to change and being able to have the space to, to have those conversations. Cause, um, yeah, there's, yeah, there's just different things that can come up. Do you still live in constant fear? It comes and goes, but yeah, when I, yeah. Um, and then the speaking out publicly like when I when we released the book and even just now with the Netflix series it's like I keep thinking I'm I'm at a better place I know I'm at a better place but it again like the public shaming mixed with thinking that I was going to be killed. It just brings all of that up. And so, yeah, the hypervigilance and like thinking of and imagining all, all the things that could happen is, uh, distracting. Yeah. distracting yeah you have two children congratulations thank you um as you mentioned

like i i can imagine for you it's a it's terrifying to just have children in general because all you want to do is protect them right on top of that you're dealing with something that is an extraordinary trauma like have you guys talked about how you will explain this to your children one day don't know exactly when that conversation will happen or exactly how that will look like but i know that they will know what happened to us and i I think, you know, as they get older and even just little things of like teaching them consent and boundaries and, you know, respecting their body and other people's bodies. And so incorporating what we've gone through in small moments like that and kind of building blocks. Yeah, I still don't know the exact right age for when like, and then I'm sure it'll be parts of it. And, but I definitely don't want

to keep anything from them. I want them to know that no matter what happens in their life, that they can always come to us and be honest with us and we will always support them. And I definitely want them to know their value and their worth and not let anyone dictate that to them. And, um, you know, it's good to be strong, but fighting doesn't always have to be what it people think it is. You know, there's, um, power and strength and, and patience and, and yeah, you don't have to be aggressive and instantly react to be powerful and strong. Um, but you know, I mean, I'm sure I'm going to get them in like martial arts and all sorts of stuff too, you know, like, but I mean, I think it's just good to like

mechanically, you know, the PT nerd in me, um, is just, you know, physically that's a good idea, but, um, yeah, you know, how have you changed as a person after surviving this horrific experience? especially kind of going through the process of trying to eliminate the self-blame and all of that, I become more grounded and confident in who I am at my core and realizing, no, I'm not what all these people thought or said. I know who I am. I know who I am in the world and to other people, to my family. You know, I think a lot of people would think that but I also do still see the good in people and in the world. And so I I want to try to, like, harness that and use that and and turn it and keep kind of setting the motion towards positivity and um but yeah I mean there's I'm gonna have a lifelong battle of dealing with trauma and pain but I know that I can do that I can still have joy and gratitude and enjoy moments and life and laugh and be silly and joke.

And, you know, I can still have all the good even with all of this, you know? Totally. Last question. What change do you hope comes for survivors and women by telling your story? I mean, at the core, baseline is just, again, for women to believe in themselves. And I'm hoping as more survivors speak out, it empowers others. I know that I was definitely empowered by watching others speak out and realize like, okay, like maybe I could do that too. And yeah, if we just hear from more people and we realize what the issues are, then we have a better idea of what needs to change. I also think and like, because I have so many women that listen. And I think something that stuck with me when you were talking about it, Denise, was like reading online, like other women speaking about you in point is each other, like every woman can relate in some capacity to each other of like we know what it's fucking like.

We know the sexualization. We know people don't believe us. We know we're told to be silent. We know all of this. We've lived it. We like you said, we grow up watching it in art and movies and books everywhere. It's like there's this romanticizing when a woman is weak and doesn't stand up for herself. And when a woman does stand up for herself, you're demonized and you're a bitch and you're loud and you're obnoxious.

And if a man did the same thing, it just wouldn't be – it wouldn't be taken the same way. And so it's like how I appreciate, aside from the work you're also doing in law enforcement right now also just for women of like this is a really important conversation that you're someone that came forward and should have been you should have been believed and you went through something horrific and sadly like a lot of the themes a lot of women listening have probably gone through like one in three women is assaulted it's like these are things of us just constantly like you said when he's going away to jail and he'll be released when he's 70 it's like no no it's a power dynamic it's like men getting off on making us feel small making us feel weak how do we as women just start to like fucking support each other a little bit more and believing

each other because they're not going to believe us because it threatens everything in society if we start to rise up and we start to be considered equal then everything is going to fucking flip on its head so how do we at least have a little bit more of unity with each other to be like i see you i've been there and i don't know the answer i think it's important to talk. I mean, yeah, talk and hear and listen and, and just try to remind ourselves, like, no matter what you think or think, you know, of a situation, you don't know it all. Even if it's something small, you know, like, like office gossip or something like you just you just don't know. and I think we just need to recognize that and try to empathize with people and and just just try to receive each other with a little bit more

openness and love and the very least try to like recognize when we're being judgmental and and not act on that judgment yeah it'd be nice yeah i cannot thank you enough for coming i think back to what you said where you're like i did react exactly how i should have reacted and you're so right like you did every single thing that you could have done to survive and then some and for anyone to judge you on how you responded to something that most of us can never fathom going through and surviving like shame on everyone for failing you and I'm just so happy that I got to speak with you because the Netflix documentary like yes it was it was very in detail and I got to see a picture of it but speaking and being able

to like look you in the eyes and like seeing how this is affecting you day to day like yeah I pray to God that this conversation and what you're doing out there can like help the next woman that goes through this and then everyone's like no we believe her and we see her and this is going to make a difference so thank you so much for coming I really appreciate it thank you for having me.