Call Her Daddy - Elizabeth Banks: How Do I Know If He’s My Soulmate?

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

Elizabeth Banks joins Call Her Daddy to share some wine, wisdom and laughs. She reminisces on meeting her husband on the very first night of college and how she knew he was the one - even though they were only eighteen. Elizabeth and Alex discuss and normalize not always knowing exactly what you want in life -- and give advice to those feeling confused after graduating college. Elizabeth opens up about her path to motherhood and the decision to use a surrogate. She talks about the feelings of shame and grief she experienced after discovering she could not get pregnant. The duo break down other topics, including women having autonomy over their bodies, power imbalances in the workplace and the privilege of using your voice for change.

what is up daddy gang it is your founding father alex cooper with call her daddy elizabeth banks welcome to call her daddy thank you hi you are an actress writer producer director you've starred in movies such as the hunger games 40 year old virgin one of my personal favorites pitch perfect another one of my personal favorites and Pitch Perfect, another one of my personal favorites. And many more. And you're in the wine business. Yes, I am. Your team reached out and was like, are you down to drink?

And I was like, am I down to drink? Give me an excuse to drink during the day on a Wednesday. I'm game. I'm ready. So we have your wine here. Yes. It's called Archer Rousse. What are you starting with? I started with the Sablon. OK. And then I think we have, this is the wine here. Yes. It's called Archer Rousse. What are you starting with?

I started with the Sablon. Okay. So, and then I think we have, this is the Malbec. Yeah. Yeah. So I like the Malbec chilled. It's amazing. Would you consider yourself a sommelier?

No. In fact, one of the reasons I liked that this Archer Rousse was canned wine was that I kind of feel a little wine shamed. You know what I mean? I'm a grown ass woman, but like, I don't know. I don't, why, I can't learn everything about wine. It's just not my thing. Right.

But I also know what I like and et cetera. I mean, I love a sommelier who's like very cool and chill and telling me what's good. And like, I love that vibe. But I really, when I go to shop for wine I'm like I don't know see this is what I didn't know first of all cheers cheers let's have a taste the hyam oh it's good it's yummy I forget there's something about drinking wine in a can that's like bringing me back to life you're on the beach I'm on the in your mind I'm're on the beach. I'm on the beach. In your mind. I'm already on the beach. I'm like in Italy. Yes. Yes. I'm in Marbella, Spain. My feet are in the sand. growing up before you were like of age at 21 what what was your parents relationship to

allowing or not allowing you to drink uh i my high school graduation my dad like bought a you know a couple cases of beer he was like you can't when you're 18 like you can't this is weird but he was like in the navy at 18 you know what i mean of beer he was like you can't when you're 18 like you can't this is weird but he was like in the navy at 18 you know what i mean okay so they were pretty chill they were pretty chill yeah i was a bit of a goody two-shoes in high school so i was somewhat weirdly responsible well i feel like because we're gonna get that because i know you went to an ivy league school so i was wondering like did you spend all of your high school time, like, preparing to try to get to college?

Or did it, like, come naturally for you? I loved school. I was, I love learning. And so school was not, like, overly stressful for me. To me, it was about getting out of my small town. And I'm super grateful for where I grew up. I love Pittsfield, Mass. Shout out, Western Massachusetts.

But I had city blood from birth, and I just knew I was meant to go live in a city somewhere, somehow. I was not meant to party with kegs in the woods while it was raining on me off of George's Farm Road or whatever. So to me, the whole situation in high school was about getting, like, what's the best school I can get into? How can I get out of here? How can I make real money in my life? How can I, you know, that was, I grew up working class and my parents wanted more for me and I wanted more for me. Totally. I was ambitious.

I can relate to that because I'm from Pennsylvania. Yeah. What was the most challenging aspect of adjusting to going to a school like UPenn? It was passing, frankly, as somebody who like belonged there. They have programs now for this in college, which they didn't have when I was there, which is basically like socioeconomically to be on scholarship and grants and all that, which is how I went to Penn. I worked the entire time. I never went on spring break. I never went anywhere. I stayed at school

and worked. I did not go. I worked all summers. So that was the part of it that for me, you know, I was there living and hanging out with and going to class with people who just never have to worry about that stuff. You know, they were not worried about a winter coat with a hole in it. And I was like, fuck, my winter coat has a hole in it. This is my coat. Let me sew this myself. Like, you know, like, oh, I had to miss shifts because I had to, you know, study. I literally was choosing between like a shift at work or studying for a test.

And it's like, all right, well, I got to maintain this grade point average so I can stay at this school. And so, OK, now I've missed a shift. So now we're not going to we're going to have bagels this week at every meal, you know. But when you look back, like, do you feel like that also propelled you to a different level for yourself? I don't you look. It's just it was my experience. Yeah. I really only try to speak for myself at this point.

You know, I that was my experience. I had to work a lot. I'd missed out on a lot of things. But of course, it makes you a person who is respectful of the dignity of work. Like, like true. You know, I see I was a chambermaid in bed and breakfast. And like, don't flush condoms down toilets, assholes. Stop it.

Such a good specific like PSA. We don't need the condoms in the toilet. That's not where they go. They don't go down there. That's not what you do. And it's people like me that have to clean that up. So I just have that mentality now of really appreciating work, the dignity of work and people just doing their job

so they can like go home to their families like you know when did you realize you wanted to be an actress it was pretty late I it's just not something anybody where I'm from dreams about and I loved doing it it I it provided me a real sense of pride and self-worth and I felt good at I really liked entertaining people and I made people laugh early in my career and it just was very um addicting um that all being said I did not go to school to be an actor at all the path was like I couldn't move at 22 to New York and become an actor because I had no idea how to do that of course and so instead I just kept going to school because I knew how to do that you're like this I know this I can figure out and honestly it worked out really well for me I did my showcase

and I got an agent and I got offers and I was like in a commercial like a month later and then that was that and I started paying off my student loans and here I am I love that story just because I feel like something I've been talking about recently is like a lot of people will write in being like I feel like I'm on campus and everyone knows like what they want to major in and what do they want to do for a living and I'm like I have no fucking idea like I am like just as lost as the person today so I think it's nice to sometimes hear people be like yeah I didn't like grow up and from like five was like I'm gonna be an actress like and it's totally fine if that's what you are like envisioning for yourself but it is nice to hear sometimes people who are so successful like you are to be like

yeah no I didn't have it all figured out until like after college almost. I started to like lean into like, what do I want to do? Yeah. Which I appreciate you sharing. I mean, you're a podcaster. Yeah. One of the best. How did you come to this?

I had literally no idea I wanted to podcast. I wanted to do like film and television. When you're in college, are you like, this is going to be my job? You know what I mean? Are you kidding me? I didn't even know podcasting was a thing. Right. I would consider it like radio.

And I never wanted to be like a radio personality. If anything, I wanted to produce and like direct TV or film. Yeah. And then it just like came about. I think sometimes it comes off like we've all got our shit together. It's not the case. It's really not. And I think it's helpful.

I loved doing it. I've always loved doing it. But I did not consider it a realistic dream to have. You know, it just was. My mindset at the time was not big enough. And now looking back and I tell people this all the time, like dream bigger, dream bigger, dream bigger, dream bigger. Like go like, yeah, you might not happen tomorrow.

But like put put, put something on the map of your life, like farther out. And like, if you work towards it, you probably do it. I completely agree. Or you're going to get some version of it that you didn't even realize you wanted. That's exactly right. You're, you're at least going to, you don't have to know exactly what you want to do. I tell, it's interesting.

I have a young, my young sons. And when you, if you ask them right now, um, what do you want to be when you grow up? They're tell, it's interesting. I have a young, my young sons. And when you, if you ask them right now, um, what do you want to be a new grow up? They're like, I'm 11. Like I, you know, I don't, they don't have a dream job. They have a dream life. And I, we talk about this a lot. Like, what does that look like? You know? And my son will say, cause he's very wise. I hope I'm doing a job that I enjoy. And I go, yeah, that would be nice. And I hope I have enough time to spend with my family. Yeah, that would be good. And, um, and I hope I stay connected to the friends I'm making right now. And I'm like, yeah, I think

that, I think that's a really good recipe for a happy life. I think your son is wiser than most of us. I know that actually is so that's it no that's so cute because I feel like when you're that young sometimes we need to like listen to the youth because they're like so unscathed by the world yeah that's right this is what we should and we're like shit that is what we should be doing but I also I'm I'm trying to teach him not to dream about work and I think about that for me, like in high school, when you asked about that, it was the vision of my life was like, I'm living in a city. Do you know what I mean? Like I make enough money that I don't worry about paying the bills. That was the dream.

Yes. That was what I was thinking about. You know, that's what I was putting on the map. I think that's such a good bit of advice. It's like you don't have to have the exact thing in mind, but have at least one thing that you know you want for yourself. And be employable. Okay. You can't make money if you don't create employability for yourself. And the more specific you can be, the more money you can make in life. Okay. I mean, I truly think there's actually a simple formula to this. So the more specialized you get, right, that's how you end up like actually like earning. But in the beginning, just think about what makes me attractive to employers. What brings the money to people? And it's like broad mindset, like I can do

anything, be confident, you know, think think work work hard any job you're doing like when I was cleaning those toilets in the bed and breakfast you better believe they were spotless you know take pride in what you're doing no matter what it is learn that skill set early don't be like oh I gotta do this thing guess what you you're there you took the job right you're cashing the check. Show up. It's such good advice. And I think it's like standing out is something I think like I always was like, mom, stop making me like put this on my resume or write this. And she's like, I promise you like and now that I would be hiring people, I now see it. I'm like people just write

in these generic things and I'm like, do something to stand out that's my piece of advice is like just send something that maybe you think is like even if it's a little ballsy you're gonna catch people's attention let's talk about a little bit of romance okay you met your husband yes the first night of college yes what do you remember about that night can you explain to us what happened the main thing I remember is that he was not that interested in me he would say otherwise but he was he he was pursuing me a little bit I was pursuing him for sure and um and he was also pursuing this really cute uh girl named Kate I can say girl because we were 18 at the time, who was like a nursing student, had a twin sister and they were super cute. And she had like a sexy deep voice. I remember Kate.

Hi, Kate, if you're out there listening. Anyway, he I met. So I went to school. I knew one person from school. I hope she's listening to and her brother. Her name is Penny Feldstein. I met her in Massachusetts before I went to Penn, which is in Philadelphia. So I show up in Philadelphia on campus. And she had said, my brother goes to the school. So when you get there, call me because he'll take us around, whatever. So I get there. I call Penny.

And she's like, my brother's fraternity is having a party tonight. So I went to her room and we walked up to the frat house together. I met her brother Mark Feldstein and um the second person I met was my he happened to be standing with my now husband yeah and the vibes were like chill but he wasn't like obsessed neither one of us we were coy you know it was like September 6th I know exactly what it was but um September 6th it's like 100 degrees still in Philly. So everyone was like, I was in like cut off jean shorts. I mean, we were all half naked.

And he was really cut. He had a really great body. And he was tan because it was the end of summer. Right. Everyone was looking their best. So everyone was looking great. Wow. It was shiny, happy people everywhere.

And it was like college. I was like, hell yes. I'm here. But it's such a good story. And I'm sure it's like you're asked about it probably in every interview because like it is such like a a cute way to now be like 30 years later I'm still married to the same man but it's a very cute story how quickly did things like progress between the two of you you're pretty quickly we got lucky you know I I'm like a, I believe in fate person particularly, but I do think, you know, it's almost like when you, if you're, you see something, you're made aware of something

and then suddenly like you see it everywhere. I was made aware of him and then I kind of felt like I saw him everywhere for the next few days. So I met him. We hung out for, you know, not that long that night. I tried to give him my number. He was like, I don't have a phone, which was true. He just hadn't hooked up his phone yet. But I was like, if you don't want my number, dude, like you can just say so. Don't pretend you have like no ability to ever figure out how to call me. Like, like you,

like there's, there are phones in the world. You might not have, you can find a phone if you care. So that was a fun laugh. And he didn't call me because he didn't take he didn't have a phone he was like oh so he can't um and then the next night I saw him again with like a totally different group of people and then he started rushing a guy who lived on my floor because he was older than me and um so I happened to literally like walked in my hallway and he was standing there and so you know it's just like little things where i was like wait why do we keep seeing each other and we were had a great energy between us from jump we were very like attracted to each other and then he asked me out on a date and we went on like the greatest

date of my life um you know we were underage and we went to a jazz club in philadelphia like i'm from i'm from like a little town we have like three bars like and they're all they're all like roadhouses basically um so going to a fancy jazz club this woman sang i remember she sang all the classics and sang, you know, what a wonderful world and like walked through and we were in with the microphone and sang at our table. And I, we drank beautiful old fashions out of beautiful crystal glasses. And then he, he said to the taxi driver, he's like, I just need two back. And I was like, oh my God, he knows how to like tip. He's so fancy. I was like oh my god he knows how to like tip he's so fancy I was blown away you're

like okay I guess we can date now I guess you know how to work it it's gonna be great and then the rest is history and we're still here yeah so long later having a relationship in college how what was like the best part of that and the worst part of that because there can be pros and cons to having it like immediately starting freshman year and through I mean the big pro is you don't need to muck around trying to figure out who the fuck what's what you're doing who cares about you what you oh my god I can't even imagine now with the texting and the ghosting and the oh my god it's not great it's not great oh it's not good the worst I had a great relationship in high school too so that really prepared me I had a great boyfriend and you know I went to college being like I'm here

I wanted to get laid and like sow my oats and have fun that was really it and I happened to meet I turns out I'm a serial monogamist. I didn't know. I didn't realize. From high school to college, I just honed in on one and that was it. Stayed together for 30 years. And where was he from? Portland, Oregon.

Okay. So you guys graduate. Yes. I think there's so many people that write in to me and are like, I'm graduating college. I have a partner. Right. What the hell do we do? We have to move to different states. states. Or should we stay together?

Like, what happened with that dynamic? And how did you guys make it work? I mean, he made it work, honestly. He made decisions that were about us staying together. I mean, we both did eventually do that. But he left school not really knowing what he wanted to do with his life. Again, very common, you know, took some great jobs and had a lot of great opportunities,

but I was not living his passion. Yeah. So like we both did things that were for us, you know, we didn't try to like merge our lives when we were 23. Like, that's crazy. You don't need to do that. But you do need to be honest, I think, about like, are we doing this together or not? And of course, back then, too, I was crazy and emotional and like, what is this? And is this forever and not and whatever? I

questioned all that, too. I didn't really know. I really liked being with him. And we were not we never broke up. It's not like I was like, I can't wait to date other people. I was not really interested in that. It was more about, I want to do things for myself. And am I bringing him along? Is he going to come or what's happening? And he, the answer to that was like, he came, he said, yes, I'm going to come. See, that's what I wanted to hear. Cause I'm like, okay, there had to be a moment where one of you is like, what are we doing? Cause if you never broke up, I was going, OK, there had to be a moment where one of you is like, what are we doing? Because if you never broke up, I was going to say, like, was there ever a moment that you had a freak out of? Like, is this the one?

Am I going to look back and regret it? Like, OK, I would. We didn't have major freak outs, but I think it was more about is our life going to keep going together or is it going to die? Is it going to, you know, are we, are we on the same path or are we going to diverge? And that, that's a question that everyone has to figure out. You know, you can't, you can't force those things to happen. I wanted to be, I wanted to follow my dreams and be my own person and make sure I always had my own sense of security. I didn't need him to do things. And I know he felt the same way. He wanted to feel like he was his own man, his own person, all of those things. Like we, even though we had this,

we have this identity now more than ever that we are totally together. We needed to feel as young people that we had our individuality and that we were our own people before we could like join each, join up with each other. Right. I love that. And that was what we were, that's the balance we were trying to do. So we spend a lot of time apart from each other. We still do. Yeah. I'm a heart, I'm a makes the heart grow fonder person.

Like I don't mind being, I mean, I mind being away. It's not the greatest, but it always makes me appreciate what I have at home. And that has been true our entire lives. Like I've always had to travel for work and he's always had to come visit or we've always come back together and the coming back together has always been awesome. I think that's something that's very underrated is like using moments apart

that actually make you way closer and stronger because you miss them and you want to be with them. We end up being like on the phone for like three hours a night, like we're in high school again. Do you know what I mean? It's cute. It's cute. I, that's what I was going to ask you. I'm like, okay, 30 years of marriage. How do you keep the passion alive? How do you keep it interesting? Give us the secret. You know, it's funny because most people ask, how do you keep the passion alive? How do you keep it interesting? Give us the secret. You know, it's funny because most people ask, how do you stay together for that long? Like people are not actually interested in the like those questions.

Yeah. No, I mean, that's so funny because most people are like, how do you how do you like commit to someone and then not fuck it up? They're like, Elizabeth, how are you still the same person? They're like eyes twitching you're like and meanwhile i'm like i don't know if you if you choose well right and you stay and you keep recommitting to it it's actually not that hard um the hardest like keep i'm always like don't cheat yeah that's the big like what do most people break up over cheating that's what most people break up over let's be

clear that's it is there a conversation you guys had that was like a very specific conversation about that like when you got married or something I mean I remember we went to we were in San Francisco we went to a restaurant we were probably like, you know, we had some drinks and we got a little drunk and it was more of just like, look, if anything's happened, if you've flirted, if this has gone on, what I literally don't care. Let's not care about anything that happened in the past. Let's just talk about what the future looks like for us. Like, are we are we doing this? Are we saying like, it's me and you and we're going forward and we said yes and I remember kind of coming to the conclusion I was like oh okay so eventually I'm going to marry him and we're gonna have kids we're gonna make a family together and that kind of came out of

out of a conversation that was like whatever's ever happened yeah let's not care because we were babies and you weren't it's fine you we weren't meant you know we didn't know that we were gonna be committed right but now tonight we're kind of in a place where we know we're going to yeah so let's like you know so let's kind of acknowledge it and kind of say like all right well then let's let's be real about this like let's be let's commit i appreciate that because I think there's a lot of people that can get scared to bring it up if they don't know where their partner's at yeah and it's a very scary feeling when I've had women write in being like I know like I'm ready for the

next step and he has never brought it up and I'm like you have to have the conversation yes because what are you going to do sit around for a couple more years and then you finally ask him and he's like, Oh no, I'm out. also I, I think it's okay. Look, people are afraid of the answer.

It's fear based. So because you're putting yourself out there and you don't want to hear that they don't want to do it. But I think often what happens is, by the way, we didn't get married at 26. We've, there was multiple years went by after that before we actually

married each other it was more just like let's start making decisions that will lead us to the same place which is we want to get married and start a family and that was it by the way I I have I mean I have friends family that are don't want to get married but are like I want to move to LA do you want to come with me are we going to commit to this life together it's the same idea you know like we were living together so it's like totally that's what I was interested like you didn't get married right away how much open communication did you guys have about like we want to get married when are we getting engaged because I think sometimes like when I zero you talk at all well meaning once we were like once I knew we were going to get married eventually

I kind of had that in the back of my but I was like there was no rush I wasn't in a hurry right right but my only hurry was literally I'm a little traditional I didn't want to accidentally get pregnant before I was married I guess that was it okay that was it I was like oh I'm gonna feel really bad if I you wanted to do it I wanted to be That was it. Okay, okay. That was it. I was like, ooh, I'm going to feel really bad if I... You wanted to do it. I wanted to be traditional about it. I just thought we've been together since we were 18. And I, by the way, this is no judgment on anyone who has a kid and then gets married.

I don't really care what anyone does. I'm just telling you that for me, I'm a little traditional. I wanted to be married before I had kids. Were you surprised when he proposed? Yes, he surprised me because he was like, fuck you. You're a know-it-all. I didn't want you to know. And he knows me really well.

And he wanted to create a scenario where he did it. It was him. It was not. He's a little traditional, too. That's why we work together. Do you know what I mean? I think he called my dad and the whole thing. And so it was like he went with like my good friend to like buy a ring and got her advice. And like, you know, he did all the work. And I think and he deserves all the credit for it because I was kind of like to do like I was working. I knew, you know, we'll figure it out eventually. Blah, blah, blah. And then he was like, no, we're doing it now. And I was like, oh, shit.

All right, we're doing it. Can you share how he did it? Oh, it's not that crazy. I was working on this movie Seabiscuit. I traveled all around for it. And I was in Kentucky. We were shooting a sequence at Keeneland. And he came to visit in Kentucky.

He was in business school at UCLA at the time, getting his MBA. And so I honestly thought he wasn't going to do anything until he had graduated. You know what I mean? I didn't think he was really ready to get married. And he showed up. We went tailgating. So it was a big Kentucky-Louisiana football game. We went tailgating. So there's a big Kentucky, Louisiana football game. We love sports.

And I was with these world-class jockeys in Kentucky where jockeys are literally the celebrities of Kentucky, right? So we were these big-time jockeys, Hall of Famers, and they were like, we're going to go. They have a suite at the thing. What are all these rich horse people? And so we went, we started drinking bourbon because it's Kentucky at 11 a.m. We were off our asses by the end of the game. The game was blowout amazing.

They shot off fireworks like the game was over and Kentucky won. And then Louisiana ran a touchdown into the end zone and actually won the game so it was like this crazy ending and it was like it's one of these like top 10 all-time like espn moments blah blah blah so we go back to the hotel after this we're done like i'm done and and we're taking a nap and um i wake up and i'm like let's just get a steak to the room and like you know hang out like we're already kind of he's like no we are going to dinner yeah get this big plan and he had asked like what's the best steakhouse in kentucky or whatever it's called malone's i don't know if it's still there it was in a shout out to malone's that's where i got engaged so we

go to malone's we have a driver he like has it all arranged through the concierge we go to malone's that's where I got engaged so we go to Malone's we have a driver he like has it all arranged through the concierge we go to Malone's and it is a party because Louisiana has won and all these people are there for the game and they're all wearing their Mardi Gras beads and it's purple everywhere and there's a magician walking around doing stuff and my husband is kind of horrified he's like oh shit he was wanting like mussel and franks like he wanted a classic like you know like a red velvet banquette yeah right kind of a situation where we were gonna eat a medium rare steak and have martinis and he was gonna ask me to marry him it was gonna be great instead we're in it we are in a party i mean it is a massive party there.

And we're hungover because we've already been drinking all day. But you were just like, why? So I think I ordered a ginger ale because I was like, I'm going to die. And, you know, so we were there for like two and a half hours. He just wouldn't let the dinner end. He kept ordering things. He wasn't asking me. And honestly, he just wanted he didn't want to do it in front of like a table full of strangers and he did not want to do it in front of a fucking magician

nope not i think we could do without i feel like that's not as romantic as it it doesn't even sound romantic no it wasn't it wasn't so truly the restaurant was like closing like the staff was kind of like giving us the dirty like you need to get out of here i and um we i was like closing like the staff was kind of like giving us the dirty like you need to get out of here i and um we i was like why don't we get the check babe like let's go what are we doing why are we still here and then he just pulled out this ring and like yeah everyone and we were basically alone at that point in the restaurant it was really lovely and i was in shock in shock and then we went home and we called our entire family it was like one o'clock in the morning I woke my parents up and and then his family's all west coast so

they were it was early enough for them it was like 10 and we called everyone and it was great okay that's a great story yeah that's a that's an absolute great story because I think sometimes there's pressure to do like on the hot air balloon, like skydiving. Like, no, like it can be. That's not us. That's just not us. Like, if that's you, great.

Totally. Like, go for it. That was not us. He did it exactly how he and I were supposed to get engaged. Totally. so you have two beautiful children yes two boys um did you always know you wanted children yes um I mean when I was I mean I did not want children when I was young of course I wanted to plan my family right Alex that's what I was most interested in like I have a whole plan yeah I had a plan um I did always want to have kids yes you especially when I once I knew I was marrying my husband I wanted us to make a family

together then it made sense for you. Yeah, 100 percent. You've been open about your journey to becoming a mom. Can you talk about that? Well, I I've never been pregnant. And when I was young, I thought it was because I was really good at taking the pill, which I definitely was. But I have no idea. I have.

So I have. There's a small percentage of women who basically have unexplained infertility and that is me I'm in that that category and really what it came down to for me and I know there are other women have other stories and there are rumors out there about my story so I just want to say this I've never been pregnant I've never had a miscarriage I think people mistook my story for like maybe I had a lot. I've never had a miscarriage. I think people mistook my story for like, maybe I had a lot of, I've never had a miscarriage. So for me, I had always had plenty of eggs. I never had trouble making embryos. Um, they did not implant for whatever reason. My uterus is hostile to, I don't know what's going on, but they just will not stay in there. So at a broken belly is what I told my kids.

Mommy had a broken belly. So we, my husband and I, it's funny because I remember when I went to the fertility doctor for the first time, he was like, you're going to use a surrogate. And this is a long time ago before surrogacy was like a Kardashian thing. Right. Nobody was doing it back then. And I thought he was crazy. Like, what are you talking about?

No, I'm not. First of all, I don't know what that is. And that sounds nuts and expensive. And we're not doing that. And but he was right because he'd seen my case. Like, he's basically like, I can solve like eggs. Like, we have a lot of ways to like get women like create embryos you know we can solve bad sperm or whatever causes infertility they have a lot of

solutions they do not they do not know to this day why an embryo implants or doesn't they don't know and um so he was like this is on you have an unsolvable problem, which is not the language he used with me. So at the time I thought like, we're just going to do IVF or ART, which is assisted reproductive technologies. And we're going to figure it out. Cause like other women, I knew were doing that and they were getting pregnant. It was not a problem. Like they take their Clomid and they do their this or that. Everybody's going to, you know, it's going to work for us. And then dude, it did not work for us. We did, I think I did like seven procedures that were all resulted in zippity doodah. And we were really despondent. And then there was a

totally crazy scenario that I'm actually not going to talk about here, but it involved like family members and a cancer scare and like many things going on where we kind of thought like this is the challenge for us. Like we are really lucky people because we found each other and we're in love and we're just going to be a really good auntie and uncle. And we're just, we weren't meant to do it, you know. And then I had some incredible conversations with people. And I had a doctor that was, you know, like, you know, you can use a surrogate. Like, it's really okay. And long story short, because it's a very long story, met somebody, had an incredible conversation with her, uh, still to this day.

It's my, actually my son's 10th birthday today and I'm going to send her a picture of him. Um, yeah, cause she helped, you know, she helped make our family with us. Her mom had been a surrogate. That's how she got into it. She had three beautiful kids of her own with her awesome husband because it takes like the whole village to do this. And I was given advice that, you know, nobody comes to surrogacy like willing, excitedly. At least I didn't. You know, it was like a last resort for me. But the advice I got was you will be so grateful. And the other advice I got was, because back then it's like,

and by the way, it's illegal in most states. And, you know, it's very, it's the whole abortion conversation is very right now mixed up with IVF. And, you know, all of this stuff is so fraught. So there was a lot of judgment around this back then, especially. And people were like, guess what? At the end, you know, I had a great friend who was like, at the end of the day, there's going to be a baby and you're going to be a parent and like, nobody's going to care how it happened. And like, yeah, it was really good. The other great advice I got was like, is your goal

to be pregnant or to be a mom? And I was like, oh shit, be pregnant or to be a mom and I was like oh shit it's just to be a mom right I don't need to be pregnant fuck I don't I just want the baby right so it was like what's the best way to get to the baby like what are you doing like who cares about the pregnancy get the baby whatever the situation is like there's a lot of shame I think for women it's so much right if you're not able to do it the exact way that like everyone envisions it going and obviously we're so fortunate that we've progressed in the medical field that we're able to actually have so many different ways to go about bringing life into this world but can you talk a little bit about that shame because I think sometimes women go through it and it's hard to articulate, especially when you feel so alone and going through it. But for women especially, in a society that's like, this is why we value you, right?

We don't value you because you could be a CEO. We value you because you can procreate and keep the race going, right? So if you can't do that, you are less of a woman. That's the messaging. And my fertility was something that had to mourn. I had to grieve for it. It was a loss. And, um, I had to really work through that before I could invite someone else to help me make my family. That's really what, for me, the journey to surrogacy was really about that.

And it was confusing too because it's like, my husband and I could make these beautiful baby cakes and I just didn't have an oven to bake them in. And so it really was my fault. Do you know what I mean? It was on me. And I felt that deeply. Like I'm the problem.

Um, and you know, you just blame your lifestyle and you blame your, oh my God. And I did everything. I was like, I stopped drinking. I stopped eating. Then I started eating because someone was like, you're too thin. You're too this, you know, I, you're, you, you use that cream and it's got a chemical in it. It's like, okay, everything has a chemical in it. I don't know. Like, you know, I you're you use that cream and it's got a chemical in it. It's like, OK, everything has a chemical in it. I don't know. You know, it's like, don't eat this. Don't do that. So it's like everything you're doing is wrong.

And like, truly, I went through all of those things. I really did. And at the end of the day, I remember a really good friend of mine. Her name is Anna. I hope she hears this. She was like, listen, I was pregnant and I love being pregnant and I felt cool and it was great. And I gave birth and then they handed me a baby and they were like, go home and parent this baby. And being pregnant was like a distant memory as if it never happened. Because suddenly now actually motherhood is happening

because now you're responsible for this other person. When you're pregnant, you're still just responsible for you. And, you know, there's still a little bit of that. I mean, I'm not denying like the connection and all of those things. I mean, I don't know it intimately because it didn't happen to me. But, of course, I'm not denying like the connection and all of those things. I don't, I mean, I don't know it intimately cause it didn't happen to me, but of course I'm not denying anyone else's experience. I'm just saying my friend was like, they gave me a baby and then I took over from the hospital and like truly being

proud. I was like, what? That was like nothing compared to like the rest of my life is taking care of this other human being. Right. That's nine months. Like now it's for the rest of your life.

Now it's the rest of your life. That's what I had to focus on. Just refocusing on parenting and my actual child that was in my arms. And man, oh man, it made everything else so stupid. So silly. Everyone's judgment was like, fuck off because now they get to judge me for how

I parent. It starts all over again. It's a whole other side of the cycle. But like, no, like you gotta mourn it. Absolutely. Like it was really, it's a journey. I, I, it's not, it's hard. It's not easy at all to feel like you can't do something that you really want to do, that you feel made and built to do, and you don't understand it, and you're with a great person, and like everything was right,

and it still didn't work for me. I really appreciate you sharing that because one, recently, for me, women having autonomy over their bodies is the cause I care most about. And I think hearing women talk about their individual journeys is so powerful because as much as we all are never going to have the same exact story yeah it's helpful to hear like we're all going to go through shit but we

can support each other in how different our stories are that's right um your new movie yeah call jane is truly the movie i think everyone in america should see right now especially with what's going on yeah um can you explain what your character goes through in this movie in her character development so the movie's called jane um it's the it's based on the true collective of women in chicago in the late 60s early 70s before roe v wade was the law of the land that provided abortion health care to around 11 000 women uh that sought them out right um so basically illegal abortion care was what they were providing. And in the film, I play this woman, Joy, who is a kind of conservative housewife who never in a million years thinks she's going to seek out abortion health care and, uh, finds out

that she's pregnant. You know, she's 40 years old. So she's having a pregnancy that is, um, that's life or death for her. Basically, it's putting a pregnancy that is um that's life or death for her basically it's putting a strain on her heart um and she's told like you'll probably die if you don't get rid of this pregnancy and she's got a life that she's living and she's got a child that she's already raising a daughter and she makes a decision um that she prefers her life and um she has to seek out an illegal abortion through the Janes. And then once she meets this network,

and really for me it was when she makes this very life-affirming choice for herself to save her life that everything begins for her. I read the script a long time ago and I remember thinking, this is like a coming-of-age a 40 year old you know like you read coming of age for like a 17 year old right but you know or like Jane Austen or something but like this is a woman who's like well into what she thinks is a very comfortable life and then realizes oh my god I'm living in a bubble I had no idea all these other things were out there and I had no idea that I had, could find purpose in my life. And, you know, she's, she just becomes a totally invigorated new person. But I do think that's also the beauty of growing up because I've talked about it on my

show a lot. Like we are raised a specific way and, you know, God bless your parents, but there's, it's really an extremely exciting time when you get away from where you were raised and away from your parents if you have the ability to do so changing your mind's okay change your mind's great it's great well it's it's a measure of your life experiences because it tells you that like oh i was able to be open to something new a new idea a new person it's mostly people that change us though, isn't it? Yep, it is. It's meeting other human beings and building empathy for them

and going like, oh, they're just a regular Joe that wants to do blah, blah, blah with their life and live their dreams. Oh, and they happen to be trans, right? Or, oh, they happen to be, you know, oh, they happen to be an ex-felon. Yeah. But like they, you know, they're,

I just think that the idea of people's whole humanity is just more interesting than like you know archetypes tropes like the whole it's just like there's so much more going on I agree I feel like even recently I felt like oh my god I I never want to judge anyone again because we just have no idea and it's actually i judge myself i know i know but then it's like oh my god we have no clue so i think a really interesting scene that struck me in the movie was when you're in the boardroom yeah surrounded by all men telling you no you can't get an abortion correct and your character is like wait but like even if it means the death of her mother, like what? And they're like, yeah, no, that scene was so powerful because I think how many times

I've been in a room with all men. And it's, it's just so profound to look back when I was younger. I wish I could have like stood up for myself in certain situations, but have you experienced being in a room with men in an industry dominated by men like of course how have you evolved with your relationship to sticking up for yourself and trying to have a voice in a room where well that's what that scene really is about right it's about the spaces where women's voices are not valued yeah of course I've had many experiences in my life I mean you know I'm an actor in Hollywood. I go to set.

I've gone to many sets where I'm like the only female actor in the cast or, you know, one of a very few. I mean, I've mentioned Seabiscuit. Like, you know, I was I had an amazing time making that movie, but it weren't like gal pals on that film. I mean, it was me and a bunch of dudes. So and that's true of like a lot of movies I've done. So that was my experience for a long time. And now, you know, I see it for what it is. It's really, it's so interesting as you get a little more distance

from that time in your career. But also when you look, everything was anecdotal for a really long time. So I think pre Me Too Too, pre-like, we want to have more women on boards of Fortune 500 companies. Like there's this whole movement right now that is about equality in a way. And then there's a backlash, which is about abortion rights, which is all about inequality.

So there is a sense of like women deserve more, you know, more representation. And that comes, you know, I like to remind people that we are women as having political and economic power is brand fucking new in the scope of human history. Our grandmothers did not work outside the home. Women did not work outside the home, make their own goddang money until the 70s. You could not have a no-fault divorce until the 70s. You could not leave a husband just because you wanted to until the 70s.

You had to have his permission to leave. So women have not had a sense of autonomy, really, or any political clout or economic power until my lifetime, my 40-something years. That's it. So it's fresh as a daisy when it comes to the patriarchy. The patriarchy is like, wait a minute. We had a system.

Right. We loved how this was going. We loved it. We were very We had a system. Right. We loved how this was going. We loved it. We were very happy with the system. Right. What do you mean? You're going to work and like have opinions? You're going to want things?

You know? Hashtag me too. Fuck you. And you're like, no, no. Stop abusing us. Like maybe stop doing that. Right. And like, you know, I think it's what people are like, why did it take so long?

For instance, you know, I won't say his name for a Hollywood mogul to get taken down. You know, why did, why was he allowed to do that for so long? And you're like, because there were young women who had no careers and no money and no safety and no security. And then they grew up and they had husbands and families and money and lives and security and careers. And they were like, hey, that guy, that happened to me. And they were finally safe enough to say it. And it takes feeling safe to actually stand up for yourself. That's what it took me it took me feeling safe in spaces and that comes with my own sense of security like if I say this out loud I will still work in my industry I will not be punished for saying this it's my safety that has allowed me to speak out it's a privilege to

feel safe I currently feel safe and I experienced something where I didn't feel safe um back in college and it was a power dynamic that was abused and I now look back and I'm like the reason I didn't speak up or didn't say anything was because like I needed a job like I needed to get my foot in the door I need and so I I wonder if you have advice for young women maybe that I mean are in the workforce right now trying to figure out like I don't have that safety or security right now like I don't know if you have any advice of like how to navigate I know it's very difficult it. I would say there's safety also in numbers, right? Like we do feel that. So like hashtag me too was about numbers. It was about like,

there were these anecdotes that were whisper campaigns in this. There's also now there's so much data. Like we just know we're like, no, 70% of women experience X, Y, Z. Like stop saying you don't do this to us. Like, do you know what I mean? Um, so I think partly it's that we actually have data that supports our feelings, you know, things that we could be dismissed. Now it's like, no, no, there's studies now. Like we're actually looking at it, which by the way, also fresh as a Daisy, super new to actually give a shit what's happening to women in the world. Um, haven't been studying us for very long. So that's wild too my advice is like you're almost probably never alone so you know and you don't need to compete with other women there is that

it's not a pie with only so many slices there really is opportunity out there for everybody um so i find that when people feel like they're competing again they don't feel safe they don't feel secure where they are so they feel like they can't reach out to somebody say you know the other woman on the team or the other woman in the boom or the look for those mentors talk to older ladies look you know reach out across your network. Talk to your friends about it. The shame and stigma around all of these issues is still so deeply felt by people.

And it's really hard to break out of. And it's why people stay silent. And that is the best tool the patriarchy has. They are creating a sense of fear, stigma, and shame that allows women to sit silently at home and go like I guess I'm the only one and you you aren't you are not alone you're not alone and I love that advice find the other people even though it's scary it's better to you will feel better not being alone that's the main yes yeah it's the first step yep right feeling on, is you're being isolated on purpose.

It's a tool. Don't let yourself be isolated. How do you respond to someone in conversation if they say that they think abortion access should be banned? I think that if abortion is not for them, they should not get an abortion. And, but I don't think that they have the right to tell other people what to do with their lives and bodies. We don't live in a theocracy.

We live in a democracy. And I am trying to live the values of the Constitution of our country, life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, a sense of equality and fairness. And that is not possible if an irresponsible ejaculation changes a woman's entire life. And for pregnancy, with our maternal mortality rate, especially in the South, especially for black women, like forced pregnancy could be a death sentence. Like it's just unacceptable. Yeah. It is inhumane. And I, I did a, um, a short documentary episode on, I went to North Carolina and I sat down with a bunch of women. I saw that it would, it changed my life because it's so, there's so many people that are so ignorant to what's going on. It's so convoluted and it it's, it's really disheartening, but I do feel positive in the sense that I feel like the generations coming up,

like if they use their voice, things are going to continue to change and hopefully get better. Well, the midterm elections, I think, were a big, you know, win for abortion rights across the country. I think women, it turns out, women like having human rights and they vote.

So who knew? But I do look, I really, it's not the law of the land right now. I mean, Dobbs overturned Roe v. Wade. And there were, you know, there are states where abortion health care cannot be accessed. And I think that the, you know, I think about the real harm that's happening to women in those places. And, you know, that's like, that's's happening to women in those places and um you know that's like that's my first thought and then i'm thinking about well how do we how do we get it back but you know this is the patriarchy they steal our time they're making us do it all over again my fucking grandmother fought for this by the way nobody gave us the right to vote nobody

gave us roe v wade nobody gives us shit it has to be fought for and won they don't want to give us anything so we have to keep fighting and um that's where i'm like my sense of like unaloneness comes from like i know so many women in this fight and i also know that i'm on the side of the you know that it's morally correct an unwanted child is a fucking tragedy it's it's a tragedy yeah yeah and i am not taking anything away from the holiness of a wanted baby by saying that right right yeah it's like but it should be the woman whose body it's her body let decide. How does that affect you? It truly just is to me. It's not fair. Yeah. Like dudes ejaculate inside ladies.

And like what? Every time out, if that sperm meets the egg, you're supposed to stop making it into something it's not. It's fucking science. It's a sperm meeting an egg and acts. Nobody had. Here's the thing. Abortion exists because we as a society and this is our lived reality this

is not some fairy tale we have sex for fun we don't always have sex to make children we just have sex for fun and so abortion is the insurance policy against unwanted pregnancy when we're just trying to have sex for fun that's it that. That's our live reality. Stop pretending that we're all sluts and like people to have sex outside of marriage are going to hell. Not true. Also, by the way, I'm good with my God. You don't need to get involved. You're not my God. You don't get to tell me what's going to happen to me at the pearly gates. I'm good. I'll get there. I'll have my own conversation. Thank you so much. Don't worry about my soul. i'm good i'll get there i'll have my own conversation thank you so much don't worry about my soul right i'm good i'm good i'm good thank you worry about your own self that it you

worry about your god and what you think your god's gonna do to you i'm good my god's cool with me yeah i feel good i think i personally feel great i feel straight with my god exactly no that's why i do love the movie because no one wants to be preached at no one wants to be told to do no one's homework i get it if you watch this movie you feel how imbalanced the power dynamic is and you feel how isolated your character is in this moment and it's it's incredible yeah um i think people in the world in 2022 have gotten a little bit better with understanding that feminism is just us wanting to be equal to all people. Equal opportunity.

Thank you. But do you think being a feminist at all hurt you and your career? No. No. I do not make decisions out of fear. I really try not to. I don't stay with my husband because I'm afraid of being alone. I stay with my husband because it's awesome to be married to my husband. Positive, positive, positive. So I don't make decisions about the roles I take or the movies

I make, the stories I tell, the things I do, how I spend my time because I'm afraid of a reaction from somebody who doesn't like what I'm doing. What? I do things from a place of positivity and wanting the world to be more equitable for people because I truly believe, like, my life is enriched when I invite that kind of energy into it. That's it. Period. Full stop.

Like, I just don't worry about haters. Totally. People who don't know me. You know, I try to act correct. I am going to make mistakes. I do make mistakes. And then I just try to learn from them. I don't know.

You know, I really don't have a lot of regrets. I think about it all as learning. And my life hopefully will be long. And I will continue to learn and be a, you know, a better, bigger person. I know I have become that. I'm definitely wiser. I feel really great being the age I am, raising my kids the way I am in the life that I have

right now. I do feel like, okay, I have figured a few things out. And that feels nice. A few. You figured a lot. You are so accomplished and i think that i mean i felt it being in this industry and starting to kind of use my voice like there's people that are like oh don't get political like why are you now just like being like feminist and like i'm like

because it's it's such a um privileged mentality to avoid like sure i like you can't just sit in your bubble and enjoy sure i guess you could enjoy your life and just enjoy your privilege i hate to tell your friends i want to say that to you but like you are when you say you're a feminist you are simply honoring the fact that you would not be sitting here talking to me if women before you if you were not standing on the shoulders of the women who came before you that That's it. So if you have any gratitude in your life, you as a woman, you have to kind of be a feminist because like we only have these opportunities because of those women who left the house and took jobs

and proved that women could work, could earn money, that women could make their own decisions, that women can be in office, that women can have jobs, that women can work, could earn money, that women could make their own decisions, that women can be in office, that women can have jobs, that women can have a podcast that's fucking super successful that other people want to listen to. You're not the only one who did, you know what I mean?

There's people that came before us that did this for us to have these opportunities. And to keep it going. That's, you gotta, guess what? If you want to pay it forward, you're a feminist. Right. I really appreciate you coming today because you are so wise and have that experience that I just respect you and your career so much.

And you have such a great outlook on how to navigate a man's world. And I can't thank you enough for coming. No, you're really incredible. Thanks for having me. I'm a huge fan of yours too. Look, you've done, look what you made. You did it. So did you.

Look at us. Two women sitting here thriving. Here we go.