Call Her Daddy - Esther Perel: Cheating, Codependency, & Connection

Episode Date: April 15, 2026

Join Alex in the studio for a conversation with psychotherapist and relationship expert, Esther Perel. Esther breaks down what we’re getting wrong in dating, how to build stronger connections, the warning signs of codependency, the uncomfortable truth behind cheating, and how to have better sex. Enjoy! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Esther Perel, welcome back to Call Her Daddy. It's a treat for me to be back. Third time. I know. I'm so happy. This is the first time that we've met in person. That's right. And it feels right. I remember during the pandemic, I felt like you were my safe place. I was like, I need you. We all need you. Talk to me. And we had such an amazing, we've had such amazing conversations. And today, I'm just ready to get back into it. For anyone who lives under a rock, you are a renowned psychotherapist and a relationship expert. You're also one of the

best couples therapists out there. You focus on modern relationships, intimacy, infidelity. And I think a lot of the things that you practice and focus on is going to be very relatable to my audience today. So should we just get into it? It's wish. Will we begin, as you say, on the podcast? Where should we begin? I think a lot of women are really, really discouraged by the current state of dating. What do you think is just behind that? There's a lot of things behind what's happening to dating.

Dating is the symptom. But maybe one way of asking is what's going on in the world of relationships, okay? That is making dating more complicated. The world of dating itself, romantic consumerism, is really challenging. When you are constantly looking for the perfect and afraid to settle for the good, when you are dealing continuously with the paradox of choice, with so many options and looking for a soulmate on an app, and with a tremendous case of FOMO,

when the ick factor is so omnipresent and very, very quick to kick in. when we need more social skills than we ever needed before because we are living in such a contactless reality and we actually don't have the skills to speak to people, to look at them. One of the first things we just did when we saw each other is touch. You know, we have been so disembodied. So we looked at each other, we smiled to each other, we touched each other and we kind of really grounded ourselves in each other's presence

so that we can have a conversation, than trying to look for agorhythmic perfection. I completely agree with everything you just said, but specifically, I think what is very applicable to my audience is like, we're looking for the perfect and we're so hyper fixated on because there's such an enormity of options out there because back in the day, our parents never had the access we have. They didn't know that there was a guy named Mike in L.A. who had a six pack that they can stock. Like, it was just the people that were in their proximity. And I would love if you could expand a little bit more on like being inundated with

relationship content online and through pop culture. Like how has that warped our idea of love and dating and what it's supposed to look like? So the first thing is where does the perfection come from, right? Many different sources. But one that comes up immediately is when you look at your phone, it will tell you from app to app where to go. Where to go. what to listen to, where to eat, what to watch next, what to listen for next. And it gives it to you without any ambiguity. It gives it to you with utter predictability and perfection. And all those technologies that we are having in the palm of our hand

are promising to unburden us of all the inconveniences of life. And this is in major part what is warping expectations between people. Because now I want my people that I meet to be just, as predictable and just as perfect and just as unquestionable and just as certain as the responses that I get in the palm of my hand for every second question I have. What happens between people is filled with uncertainty. It's experimentation. It's the unexpected. It's the unknown. It's the surprise. It's the curiosity. That's what drives relationships with people in the beginning. And none of that is being trained when all I need to do is click on something and got

forbid I would get lost and discover a whole new landscape that I didn't even know existed, a building I had never noticed, serendipity, spontaneity, happenstance. Those things produce anxiety rather than awe and surprise at this moment. Right. It's like people

are not as predictable as these apps are and that is becoming somehow a negative in our eyes. We're like it should just be black and white but really that used to be what was so divine. We are by nature, unpredictable, flawed, imperfect. And that, you know, what happens when you look for perfection and predictability in people

is that you stop being able to deal with the messiness of human life. The smells, the bumps, the caretaking, the less shiny aspects of intimacy, i.e. not the six-pack. Right? Not the six-pack. Not the six-pack. What do you do when you're dealing with the messiness of human life and you've become accustomed to always on delivery of your every delight, you know, perfect pitch? That is before the advice. That's even before we've come to the advice.

Right. Can we also focus on, I love how you said, like the feeling of these people are going out there and then there's this anxiety. But I think something so beautiful about first dates and first experiences or, second dates or third dates is sometimes the butterflies we feel when we meet someone. And there's the unknown and, again, the unpredictability that shouldn't scare us. It should excite you to some degree. Or the knowledge that when you meet someone, excitement and insecurity go hand in hand. Of course you're anxious. Of course you're wondering. Of course you're unsure. Of course you're trepidious and you're excited and you're expectant. It's all of this in a fantastic soup.

It's not a problem. It is what happens when you have the mystery, meeting the longing, meeting the desire, meeting the uncertainty and meeting possibility. Right. How can someone tell the difference, though, between anxious butterflies and then when it's actually a warm, sign that maybe something is off. But butterflies are often mixed with anxiety. That's the thing. It's part of the soup. You can't have butterflies that are just, you know,

because the minute you start to be drawn to someone, let's explain why butterflies involve anxiety. Because the minute you begin to be drawn to someone, the minute you start to experience any inklings of attraction or love, you also experience a fear of rejection, a sense of insecurity, a question about how much it is shared and mutual and reciprocal, and a fear of loss. They go together.

You can't experience any love without also experiencing the fear of losing the love. So I think that the idea that you can have it clean without any anxiety is really taking us down the wrong. direction. Yeah, it's like if anything, there's something really beautiful about it because it means that there are stakes involved and you could get rejected and that's okay. You're putting yourself out there again, going back to your Spotify play the list. It recommends the exact songs that you also will like because you listen to the song and then you go on your app and it tells you the exact jeans that you should buy because you bought these last year. And it's like the unpredictability is actually something that we should lean into. Yes. Because there is so much unknown. And

and there's things to explore about yourself and that person. But when we are so focused on figuring them out, it kind of completely denies the ability to grow and to grow into the relationship if we're just looking for the answer on day one. Yes. If you want to take out all the wrinkles from the start, you're in trouble.

Rinkles are part of experience. And basically taking out the wrinkles from the start is like taking out the experience. When do I know that the butterflies are the sign that something is opening up and happening versus a sign that there's something that may be troublesome? The only way you know is context.

And context means that you look for other signs. Is it all the time? Is it in writing? Can you have a conversation in person? Can you act? It's not just you put yourself out there. It's that, of course, you come with your vulnerability. it's part of

you, if you're not vulnerable you're probably not interested enough. Just let's put that out. Vulnerability is a sign that I care that something important is happening here. I'm interested. And now I'm not sure. Are you interested too? Are you interested as much as

me? Did you think about me as much as I thought about you? You know, instead of wondering how many words shall I send before I show myself to be too needy and too dependent? No. You know, if you put it out and the other person answers in kind, you know that something is happening between us. Right. And if they don't, it's okay. Like you will find someone else. Let's say someone finally is like,

all right, Esther, I am going to approach dating now. I'm going to be less stressed. I'm going to allow myself to just move past that fear of the unpredictable and I'm going to lean in. I think we've heard people say, you know, this person checks all my boxes, right? In your opinion, when is it realistic to have a list of qualities you're looking for in a partner. And when does that actually end up instead limiting you? Every time I think about the list, the checklist, the boxes, I always think, do you put as much emphasis on who you want to be than who you want to find? I mean, it's like, what is this? This is the consumerism. I come with my checklist. I sit in front of you in a noisy bar and I'm going to ask my questions and see if you check my boxes.

That is such an awful experience. And if you think that in the middle of that, you're going to get goosebumps or some butterflies in your belly, you're off the chart. Seriously. It's so true. It's also like that's true. Who do you want to be? How do you show up?

What do you want? It's like so product, you know, I'm coming to check if you fit the product. Wait, like I want to get a product review. Like, are you a five stars? that's actually so humbling. And I'm, I, like, do you do that? No, I was going to say, I'm married and I even was like, because I used to do that.

And I think it's so honest what you're saying. It's like we all look inward. Half the time we have expectations for people that we don't even meet ourselves. Like some of the things I used to expect. Who do you want to be? I mean, you want a person to have this, this, this, this. Who do you want to be? Right.

What do you bring? What do you want to offer? What do you want to share? Who do you want them to think that they are in the presence of. Rather than this one-sided, you know, this is, that's, you know, but the piece that would help a lot with that, Alex, is that there, and I think that that's one of the most off things on the dating scene is that the dating takes place in a completely secluded

place away from your life. Yes. Dating takes place either virtually, maybe at some point, you. finally get to meet somebody in flesh. And basically, at some point, if you think something is really happening here, you'll have the big reveal and you'll bring this person to your life, to your friends, to present them. Instead of bringing the person in your life, I'm going to, whatever, I'm going to hike tomorrow.

I'm going to look for antiques tomorrow. I'm going to bike tomorrow. Do you want to join? Are you into this stuff? I'm going to the movies. I'm going with some friends. Join us. That is,

Lower the stakes. Lower the stakes. Esther, that is such a brilliant and yet somehow simple concept that I don't know why we're not completely. Because I'll tell you what I'm told.

But that is so vulnerable about you. Your friends may judge you. Your friends may not like me. But your friends are the people who know you the most. They will see, they will tell you looks good

or they will tell you, no, not not really. really, you know, and then you decide what you want anyway, but bring the person in your life. If it doesn't work, my life didn't miss anything. Otherwise, what happens is three times a week, I'm out there dating away from the people that I really care about and with whom I actually enjoy myself. And then I come back empty handed sometimes and I have to report of my bad dates. Esther, we're done with first dates being alone. No, like I'm not kidding you as you're talking. I love it because, you know, it just made me think of something. I remember when I was dating,

I had so much success when I would be at a bar or at an event with my friends. And if I met a guy there and he was with my friends and I, I ended up like we'd had the best night. And then we'd go on a one-on-one date eventually. But it weirdly let all of my kind of my guard was down and we were around in your life. And it was so, the stakes were so low. Because I was like, I'm with my girls. If you blend in and then I would watch him and Iraq with my friends. That's right. Data points.

So many data points. Guys, I think that Esther Prell just solved. We can just end it right here. We are no longer going on first dates that are just so low at a table awkwardly. Like bring them when you are going out with your girls for drinks or bring them on the hike that you and your friends are going on and be like, my friends and I are doing this. Want to meet up with us? How? Bring some of your friends.

That's right. I was going to go do this. You can even do it alone. I was going to go do this. Would you like to join me? Meet around an activity that is part of your life where you have a certain confidence already and you can share something. You bring, you know, and then you will see, you know, you'll come out of the movies,

the theater, the whatever, the show and you say, oh, I have nothing left to say. And then you say it was nice. And then you still enjoy the show. Or you'll actually say, do you want to continue talking? Shall we go have a drink? Should we go have a bite? And it's, it's interesting. context. And all those questions about when do you know will become very, very different if you have

a context. Because this context gives you a felt sense. And a felt sense is intuitive. And it's so much more important and accurate to your real life rather than your checklist of being like, okay, I remember I wanted to see if he does this and you're alone on your date and you're trying to hit your checklist. Like that is. Where do you live? Where did you go to school? Where did you grow up? What do you do? Like are you applying to be my assistant? It's a job interview. It's a job interview. It's not a beginning of a story.

I mean, you know, relationships have stories. A first date is the first page of a story. And it will either be a short story or a novel. It's interesting because let's say, and I know everyone is obviously different and every circumstance is unique. But let's say, Esther, someone is like, okay, I am in the dating world. I'm taking all of your notes so far. but could you help me in what traits are actually important to care about in a future partner? Like what should someone really be actually focusing on if they're looking for a long-term person in their life?

I wish I could give you a blanket answer, but it really depends on you. You know, relationships thrive in complementarity. I am a person who is very solid, says one. I structure my life. I'm reliable. But sometimes I wish I was a little bit more flowy. I wish I was more spontaneous. I wish I didn't overthink things.

And I welcome someone in my life that actually is more fluid, is more spontaneous, is less, you know, rigid like that. And vice versa. That's a complementarity that's very common. I can give you basic sets of human traits. Yes, find someone who is decent. Number one, number one, decency. Find someone who is kind, who enjoys giving, who likes to think about others

and isn't just constantly making sure that they have the bigger piece on their plate. Find someone who, for some of us, for someone who can rejoice, who really can wake up in a good mood, that's something that doesn't always happen to me. Find someone who, if it matters to you, has a sense of family. Find someone who has a sense of religion if it matters to you. Find someone who loves to travel if it matters to you. Find someone who can tolerate difference. But ask yourself

also, can you tolerate difference? Right. It's like I go back. Look inward. Don't just, you know, expect. Because even that question can become a list too. I agree with you. It's almost like you can't tell people exactly what to look for because I agree it needs to compliment you. Is there anything quality-wise that you actually think we should start to devalue, though, as a society that people are looking too much for and that's not what we should be focused on? Yeah, I think that so much of our pressures at this point are about focusing on the self and on the optimization of the self and on the self-hacking and on the self-fulfillment and the self-fulfillment and the self-worth and the self-awareness and the self-self-self.

And then even when you ask, what should I look for in a partner? It's what can this partner bring to me? Rather than what are each other's needs that we can cultivate together. It's very different to say a we versus a you who is going to help me become more of myself and make me become the best version of myself. You know, you live in a big world. there's a lot of things to think about besides just me. Let's talk about friction.

Yes. Because I know that you are passionate about needing to invite a little bit of friction into our dating lives. What is the benefit of doing that? And can you explain what that even means? What that even means when I said to you before that our technologies, our predictive technologies, are trying to remove all the inconveniences, what they're trying to do is, present you with a very polished life where there is no friction, no obstacles. Nothing that you have to work through, which traditionally has always been seen as that

which gives you a sense of resilience, that which gives you experience, that which is necessary for child development. It's true for little kids as well. They need friction. They need to resolve problems. They need to figure it out. They need to make mistakes and correct it. so do we. So that's friction. Besides that, I'm a sex therapist as well and we have a, there's a

beautiful formula of Jack Moore in a major sexologist who that says attraction plus obstacle equals excitement or desire. Obstacle is friction. It makes me want more when I don't have and I have to reach out and I have to seduce and I have to be imaginative rather than. it's right in my lap. Well, and I was going to say, I think it's important, too, to clarify, like, what is the difference between good friction and bad friction? Because I don't want any girls going like, oh, wow, we need to fight. We need to fight to feel the thrill.

No, no, no, no, no. I'm not talking about toxicity. I'm talking about friction. Talking about this that creates heat. It's really that. It's the ability to tolerate difference. It's the idea that other people will have very different versions of what just happened. and they're sitting right side by side with you.

It's tolerance for conflict. It's rupture and repair. Friction is all the paradoxes or the contradictions that we feel in relationships. Attraction and disgust. Care and aggression. Ropter and repair. Trust and betrayal. These polarities are intrinsic.

They are part and parcel of every relationship. They come and go. They've moved. you know, there are moments when you are deeply trusting in moments where you are suspicious. There are moments where you think I can't take another minute of this and then the next minute you think I can't take another day without it. It makes me think a little bit and I feel like we all have those people in our life where you kind of hear that friend be like, oh, my partner and I never fight.

We never even get in little arguments. Like what is your take on that? Trouble on the horizon. You're fucked. No, because, you know, conflict avoidance or only doing that which we both like, we only see the movies the two of us like, we only go to the bands, the two of us like.

We create sameness at all costs. You know, at some point, it starts to feel like in order not to lose you, I ended up losing major chunks of me. Every relationship, you asked me before, you know, what are the things to look for? And I will answer it a little differently. I think that one of the most important tensions for all relationships, every dating story will have this, is how do I connect to you without losing me? And how do I stay connected

to me without losing you? In every relationship, you will find that there is one person that is often more in touch with the fear of losing the other and one person more in touch with the fear of losing themselves one person more in touch with the fear of abandonment and one person more in touch with the fear of suffocation and they often meet you can give me any list you want this is not what you look at when you are a couple's therapies is what drew you together has very little to do with we like the same band and we like hiking the same mountains and we both like skiing and outdoors and none of it. Or we are foodies.

That is not what is really being played out in terms of the relationship dynamic. So when you never fight, you are trying to basically smooth out the wrinkles, the differences, the tensions, the autonomy. Because this is how you negotiate separateness and togetherness. This is probably the most important task

of any relationship. what should you be trying what am I looking for you're looking for someone with whom you can and depends if you are capable to to negotiate what is together and what is autonomous what where are we separate your friends your activities your interests your careers your family and what is ours what is the we and what is the me that's what happens in relationships you can have the most common tastes with your partner. If these things don't work, that's where you will have trouble. You know, it's interesting because...

Follow me? Not only do I follow you, I'm already in my head being like, that needs to be clipped. And every human being needs to watch that clip. Because what the fuck? No, no, no. Like, it's so real when you're talking about how in relationships, like one is more afraid of being abandoned and one is more afraid of losing the sense

themselves. Like, if everyone just pauses you, I know who I am in the relationship with my husband in that dynamic. And like, I'm sure everyone could- And are you the same with him as you were with others? Because it's not static. No. Yeah. It changes from relationship to relationship. It's not like I'm always in that position because my attachment style is always the same. It changes. You need to go through some friction because you need to see how you to argue. And I'm not saying arguing is healthy, but like at some point, human. beings cannot just go through life and just have no issues. That's just not how life goes. So it's like the beginning of relationships. It is sometimes important to see if you are almost

compatible in the way that you handle conflict. And I think a lot of people can be like, oh, we're getting married. We haven't had one issue. Do you think it's concerning if people have never had one problem and already like, we're getting married? We've never fought a day in our life. Oh, it's just a matter of time. At some point, they will. They will. But here, Here's the thing. The research is very clear on this Alex. It's really not so much the conflict itself as the repair. There are couples that are way more volatile. They bicker more, they argue more, it's faster, it escalates. It's really, can they make up and how do they make up? And do they make up just by kind of smooting it over or they make up and they actually are able to acknowledge

what they contributed to the argument. And the repair is more important than the actual conflict. And when you get to repair, how important is compatibility then in communication styles? What matters the most is not compatibility in communication styles, but accountability. It's the ability to say, I was threatened and I just lashed out on you. I just said things that I wish I didn't say.

but when I'm scared or when I fight, I sometimes don't know where to stop. I take full responsibility for this. I realize that when I said that, I was not paying attention to what you had said before, to your needs, to what you had asked from me, to how I let you down. It's the ability to take responsibility without shame.

And do you suggest, or again, does it not matter, should repair happen in the moment? Or can you wait? Great question. So some people can do it. it in the moment. Other people need 20 minutes, two hours or two days. So if you are with someone who needs two days, don't start talking in the moment. They're totally dysregulated. They can't listen. They're not yet there. Wait. But this is what happens is that you have one person who needs to make

sure that we don't go to bed. Upset. And the other one who just doesn't, don't give me one more word or I'm going to explode. Yeah. So this is where one needs to learn to engage sooner. And one, needs to learn to wait longer. Yeah, that's something that I've always found interesting in the dance of relationships. That's friction, by the way. And also, there has to be a level of respect, right? Because I remember my husband and I in the beginning days, he would want to handle it immediately.

And I would be like, I need a second. That's right. And then we would both be like, and then we almost need to find our common ground of like, okay, I can't go into a hole for three days and ignore you. So I'm going to, we need to find our middle ground of. where we both can respect each other, that you need some reprieve right now. You can't just be waiting for three days.

And also, I, though, can't have this conversation in 20 minutes. So where can you meet in the middle? Again, that just takes accountability, right? It's accountability and it's acknowledgement of the differences. Yeah. I mean, it's, you're needing the three days is not because of me. You need three days is because of who you are and how you've learned to calm down and whatever history you come with.

And the most important piece about it is not to per. personalize it. Then I can say, look, after a day, because I'm not sure that you like the three days. Maybe you actually would love it if it was just half a day, but you don't know how to do it. Because, you know, you wait, you wait till all the nervous system kind of sets back in. You've gone three times to do sports, whatever you needed to do to kind of, you know, get yourself back to ground zero. I could help you actually. That's the thing. I may actually be able to tell you, hey, you're not going to lose face and you don't have to feel like you're giving in and giving up if you talk to me two days before and I'm not going to attack you. Can we sit and just look at what happened here?

So I'll help you with the three days. It's not just the middle because it's nice to meet in the middle ground. It's that I have something you don't have. Right, because I'm not arguing or fighting with myself. Like there's another person that has the keys to the answers of why they acted that way and why I acted that way. Yeah, where did you learn to need three days? I think that something that would be very useful for all your listeners is the typical thing is to say what do you fight about rather than what is it that you're fighting for. And when you look at what people fight for, Howard Markman summarized it really beautiful.

He's a researcher on couples. And he said people fight about a few major things. The first one is people fight for power and control. Whose decisions matter most? Whose needs get priority? Who gets to decide? Much of our fighting is actually about power and control. It doesn't matter if it looks like it's about money or the kids or the parents or my activities or your friends.

The second thing we fight about is care and closeness. Can I trust you? Do you have my back? Will you look out for me? Can I rely on you? And we don't say I fight about trust. We fight about you didn't call me and you didn't tell me we're going to be late

and you didn't tell me that you had visited these people and you didn't share that with me and I didn't know you tell chat GPT this and that. You know, care and closeness. And the third one is respect and recognition. Do you value me? When you didn't invite me to join you, we can talk about how I wasn't included.

But the issue is I didn't feel valued. I don't feel like I'm important in your life. So power and control, care and closeness and respect and recognition, power, trust and value. That's what most fights are about. Shit. If you get away from all the what, you will actually understand why people get so upset. It's so, I'm so happier here. I'm going to say that a million times today.

It's so real because I can already see it. I'm sure everyone else can that's watching. It's like you're venting to your friend. And it's like I'm waiting for him to text me. And it's driving me insane because then I found out he ended up going to the dinner and he never even invited me. And I just don't like I don't even understand. I'm just so over it.

And I'm done. And I like actually fucking hate him and I'm over it. And what you're saying is like, okay, slow down for a second because this is someone you love and get underneath like what is. that's actually upsetting you and that probably would fall i would assume into the category the last one right totally where you're just like you're looking for the recognition and you want to be respected and seen and a part of their life you want to feel like you mean something to someone and when you went alone and you didn't tell me or you didn't invite me you didn't include me i'm like you know mashed potatoes

i don't feel valued i don't feel valued and i think what you had said earlier even in the dating that really applies to this is what's so hard in conflict resolution between couples is so much, almost a lot of time in no matter what argument it is, also starts in power in terms of like, I don't want to admit I was wrong here or whatever, but it also is power in terms of like, it requires you to actually get vulnerable to solve it. You know what is the most beautiful power? One of them. There's so many. But I have often said to people in, sessions. I'm trying to think about an episode on the podcast that people could go listen to that kind of instantly speaks to that, where I say, the person who apologizes first is often the

person who has the most power. I love that. Do you understand? Roll that again because we feel the weakest, right? Yes, exactly. And especially those for whom this feels weakening to admit, to acknowledge, to take responsibility, to say, I made a mistake, or I was wrong, or I went too far. Why do they have the most power? Because if I say that to you, it is more likely that you will say, A, thank you. B, I appreciate this. Three, you feel seen. Four, you realize that we're both in this together.

Yeah. And five, it's not so bad. I can get over it. Because my admission is all you need it. I don't need to, you know, stretch myself on the floor. It's not, I shame myself and make my, is, I'm just simply saying to you, it's this, it's that gesture with my head. I know, I see, I own it, I take my responsibility.

And then usually what do you do? You say, well, I wasn't at my best either. Right, then they'll meet you there. You'll meet me there. You'll meet me there. That's power, that's power to, rather than power over. I was going to say, because there's something. a difference between I was going to be like, okay, power sounds negative, right? Power sounds like

you have something over people. Because I remember growing up, my mom would always say, like, the person who cares the least in the relationship. Has all the power. And it pisses people off when you say that. They're like, that's not true. And it's like, no, no, the person who cares the least has all of the power. They don't give a fuck. So you're constantly trying to get their attention and get them to care and get them to. And you're the one that's aggressive towards. and the other person can just sit back and be like, I'm fucking chilling. That's toxic.

Why are you making such a big deal? You know, what's the big deal? Can't you just, you know. And that's toxic power. That's using power in a way that's not fair in the relationship. Why is it toxic? Because your... What is the tone when you say what you just said?

I think it's a imbalanced relationship in a way that feels manipulative. Right. Like they're using that. What? Contempt. What stands out when you say, what's the big deal? Why you need to always overblow things?

You always have to make such a big drama, you know, just, you know, just chill, just relax, just keep it in perspective, just, just, meaning what's wrong with you? And what's wrong with you says, I have contempt, which is really the number one killer. actually. When is it betrayal to go and share too much with friends or family about issues you're having in your relationship? Every biography is a betrayal of someone else. You cannot tell your story without telling things about people who are in your story who didn't ask to be spoken about. That's said by definition. I mean, this is the era where more people have written biographies than ever before. Every person has a biography to write. So a biography tells my story in the context of many relationships with others who didn't ask for the story to be told.

Every biography is a betrayal, a small one, but it's a betrayal. Yes. Okay, wait, but Esther, it helps you, to some degree, process when you get to... I didn't mean to say, therefore, you shouldn't tell. You're like, oh, girl, get after it. But you need to know that, That's what we do. And look, I've had more than one, in this instance, men in heterosexual relationships tell me, you know, if I knew it's about how much my partner, my girlfriend, my wife, whatever, my girlfriend tells her girlfriends about us, betrayal would be redefined. I think that there is often a sense among women, girls, that it's not a betrayal because I'm talking to my best friend. Whereas for many people, many men,

who are much less likely to share that much about their girlfriends, to their male friends, if they were to discover all what she is able to put out there, betrayal would be redefined. And I think that there is something to think about that. Now, when you talk to your girlfriends, the question is this. Are you ever actually saying what you have done as well? Or are you only talking about what he or she or they did to you?

And that's where the girlfriends can come in and say, look, everything starts with the name of the other person. Alex did this. And Alex said that. And Alex didn't. And you know what Alex? And what Alex again? Alex, Alex. point you want to say, and where is Esther in the story? And if Esther is not mentioned,

and what did you do? You know, when I see a couple and I see one person telling me a story, and then when the other one arrives, it's like everything this one left out is what this one starts with. But how, though, then, Esther, do you protect the privacy of your relationship without fully isolating yourself from your friends and your family? It's in the tone. It's in the way you, you, of course you come. to your friends. I'm struggling with something. I don't know what to do. And good friends sometimes give advice and sometimes really make space and listen and just say you will figure this out. I'm here for you if you need to. Sometimes I need to tell you this is what I think is

happening now. You need to talk to her. You need to tell her what's happening with you. You know, you're dealing with loss. You're dealing with illness. You're dealing with children. You're dealing with no work, you're dealing with lots of your best friends, whatever. You need to be able to talk. But talking is not the same as dishing. Right, and also starting more with

eye statements rather than the constant and then he did this and then he did this. Blame, blame, blame. And I'm the victim of the other person's doing. That is not always the case. Interesting. I do find that like emotional depth and intelligence,

I think sometimes a lot of women right in, just feeling like I really like him in the beginning. It's been fun. But like, I'm starting to wonder if he's emotionally intelligent enough and can go deep with me enough. And I'm starting to go to my friends and family when I'm going through hard things or when I'm looking to have an intellectual conversation because he can't meet me there. Like, how do you gauge if your partner is emotionally intelligent enough to match where you're also at in your life? Because that's a very elusive, hard. By going outside of your own definition. What you think is emotionally intelligent may not be his vocabulary.

And maybe the day something happens to you, he will show up and he'll deliver and he'll be there for you without many words. We have many vocabularies. Words is one. And we are, girls are often more trained to be in verbal vocabulary. We talk, you know, partly because we've been taught to. distrust our bodies. So we became masters of talk intimacy. But intimacy can be experienced in a lot of different ways that don't involve the only words. And by the way, we talk with our bodies for

18 months before we utter the first word. So our mother tongue is often physical. Emotional intelligence and intellectual compatibility is different things. You know, if it's very, very important for you to be with someone with whom you can have, these meaty conversations, know that up front. Know that up front. If you say discussing how I should handle my mother is not something that I do talk about with my boyfriend because I don't think that his advice, then go to you girlfriends. Do not think that one person can give you what an entire village should provide. A boyfriend is wanting a boyfriend. A girlfriend, if you're a girl, is wanting a girlfriend.

We need a community. You need to diversify. Better relationships, stronger relationships are often diversified. You know exactly. When I have this kind of issue or this kind of interest, that's not where I go.

I have my friends with whom I share those things and I have my friends with whom I talk about those things. That is not what I do with my partner. And that is okay. It's okay. Okay. Let's talk about cheating. we're back girl let's get into cheating everyone's oh so favorite topic that's right when there is

infidelity i think as of recent in because this didn't obviously used to be it like you know in in previous generations but there is an expectation now it feels that the relationship has to end if there is infidelity especially when the woman is cheated on there's a lot of shame from other women being like you have to leave, you don't respect yourself, get the fuck out of that relationship. Why do you think there is so much shame on a person staying and should there be that level of shame? I love the question because it is probably one of the most important changes that took place between your grandmother and you. You know, when marriage was a one-stop enterprise from which you could not get out, then you had no choice.

choice but staying. Everything changed with divorce, with the democratization of divorce, with no-fold divorce, and with women being in the workforce so that they can actually take care of themselves and not worry about the destitution and the loss of their children. And now that you can leave, you should go. If you stay, it becomes a sign of no self-esteem, no self-confidence, weakness, the opposite of what it used to be. The fact that you actually can forgive or can rebuild or that not every infidelity is actually a sign that your relationship is over. And that staying and reconnecting and rebuilding the trust is actually a sign of strength rather than weakness has really become a challenge. And the younger you go, the more this takes place.

This is the belief system of the moment. And why do you think, although I feel like this is a very obvious question, I just have to ask you because I want your opinion. Like, why do you think women disproportionately bear the shame of staying? Because there are men who stay after getting cheated on, you know? Yes. That is very cultural. When I work in Mexico or anywhere south of the border, that is not the case. You only know it more from the women.

you know when a woman stays and is quiet about it you may be sure that the silence of the man is even bigger what kind of a man are you that you would stay with a woman nobody says what kind of a woman are you we just say what kind of a low self-esteem woman are you but we don't challenge the whole constitutional element called woman we just think about her strength of character with him we say what kind of a man are you that you let your wife, you couldn't control your wife, do those things and you still choose to be with her. You're not a real man. So it's misleading to think that this is, the pressure is more on women. The pressure is more overtly on women, but that pressure is usually even bigger on men. Right, because it's emasculating. Yes. What conversations

do you think needs to take place in order to make the relationship work after someone has cheated? Because I know you meet with couples and you do help repair relationship. So I spent 10 years studying infidelity, wrote state of affairs about it, and began to really...

I have a list of 150 questions, really, that it wasn't just one. But I think the most important set of questions, come from this distinction. Try not to go for the facts. Where were you? When did you do it? How often did you do it do it standing? Did you do it lying? Did you keep your clothes on? Did you bring them to the house? Did you go for the meaning? What did it mean for you? Why do you think you did this? And what were you thinking about us as this was happening? And do you want me to forgive you or do you think I actually would be more respected by you? if I didn't forgive you? Do you think you are forgivable? Would you have accepted something like that from me? Go for the investigative questions rather than the detective questions.

Right, for the meaning not the facts. For the meaning, not the fact. Because it's in the meaning that you will also understand, did it have anything to do with you or with your relationship, or did it have absolutely nothing to do with you, which is hard to believe, but it's actually a lot of the time the case. Really? It's nothing to do with you.

Yes, to do with the fact that I felt lousy about myself, that I felt lonely, that I didn't really feel like you were giving me enough attention or that I thought, you know, suddenly somebody is laughing at my jokes again and, you know. But is that then inadvertently kind of about the other person? Like, what drives someone to cheat? Let me tell it you in one sentence that that to me became a real, sometimes people go to look for the gaze of another. Not because they're looking for another

partner, but they're looking for another self. Not that they want to leave the person that they are with, but they want to leave the person that they have themselves become. Oh shit. What they're dealing with is their depression,

is their loss, is their grief, is their aging, is there, whatever issues inside is the way that they lost themselves into you know, they forgot who they are and all of that. And that's what they are reclaiming. And their sense is that they can't reclaim it in the same place where they lost it. But it's not the other person's fault that they lost any of it.

It's also so hard though, because you're like, yes, it may not be about you, but it impacts you obviously so deeply. And it's almost, I wonder for people, have you found when you're in these moments and you're talking to these couples, is it more infuriating for the partner that got cheated on be like, I didn't do, like, this is all about you. I couldn't, like, it wasn't even because like I wasn't like having enough sex with you. Like there's something I can change. You just were going to do this no matter what. Yes, you were into women. You were into this. Like, which is easier for someone to. Depends who. So I think the most important piece that you're saying

here is that every thinking about infidelity in a relationship is a dual perspective. What it meant to you and what it did to me. So the first thing in phase one, it's phase one. One is I need you to know what it did to me. You don't go instantly for what it meant. What it did to me, how you hurt me, how you deceived me, how you lied to me, how you are duplicitous, all of that. And do you feel bad about that? Do you experience guilt or remorse?

If I don't get that, there's nowhere to start. Even if you had good reasons for doing what you did, you need to be able to know what it meant what you did to me with it, especially if it has nothing to do with me. Even more so. Do you find when you've done couples therapy that the person who cheated is usually capable of meeting the partner there? If they don't, then you have a bad sign. If they don't and if they only justify and they, you know, but those are also people

who typically will say it's because of you. You're like, there's patterns here. You know, that kind of goes together. So generally, I give you an out because I'm telling you, even if you had good reason, and you don't feel guilty about what you did, you need to be able to feel guilty for what it did to your partner. Have empathy.

Have empathy and take responsibility. It's both. It's always the empathy and the accountability. It's two parts. And then what are you doing to give value back to your relationship? You now have to prove to your partner because a betrayal is a devaluation

of the other person. I didn't think of you. I didn't care about what it would do to you. I put myself first. It's all of that. What are you doing now to redeem the relationship? And that's on you. And that one of the main ways you do it is that instead of waiting for me to ask you another question, did you?

Did you come to this restaurant? Did you take her here? Did you go there? You are the one who say, when we pass in front of the restaurant and we drive there and you say, we didn't come here. And you preempt me. Because what you think is that all. all my questions is because I want to make your life difficult. That's not the case.

I question you 100 times the same question because what you did has just shattered my reality. And I don't trust myself anymore because I thought I knew my reality and now I think like everything I thought was real was actually possibly not. So I come back to ask you the same thing because I need to kind of reconstitute my reality. That's what I'm doing with you. It's like must be so hard too because I could see the person that cheated. wants to move forward, but the other person is like, I need you to know I'm actually, if I'm deciding to move forward, I'm not actually trying to hold you against the fire forever of being like,

did you come to this restaurant? But I would love if you could meet me there in trying to just fill in the gaps for me. So I don't have all these question marks. If you think of it at that moment and you tell me, then I learn to trust you again. That's actually where the trust gets rebuilt. because now I'm not thinking that I'm the only one who cares about what happened. I'm the only one who's hurt. I'm the only one who thinks that we've just taken a big hit in our relationship. I know you're in it with me. And that allows me to then think about something else.

Even as uncomfortable as the brutal honesty can be from the person who cheated, that is the beginning of repair. Sometimes. But sometimes before you ask a question, and this I'm going to say to all our viewers here, ask yourself, do you want to know the answer to your question? Or do you want your partner to know that you have the question? Give me an example.

Did you fall in love with her? Did you think about leaving me? Did you hope I would never find out? Wait, what if we do want to know those questions? I'm like, did he? Well, that's the thing. Do you want to know the answer to your question because then you have to deal with the consequences

of knowing. I think I would want to know if someone had fallen in love. If my husband cheated on me and I think I would need to know like, are you in love with her? Because then like we have to be done, right? Go be with her. That's you. Right. Some people don't want to know. But another person in very different set of circumstances. I would ask. Yes. I would need that. Fair enough. Because that for me would just be like, but you just answered me. I need to know because I'm prepared to deal with the consequences of knowing. I see. And some people would be like, I don't want to know because no matter the answer,

I'm willing to work through this. I just did an episode on my podcast, a 25-year affair. He has. 25 years? Yeah. So that's not necessarily for our viewers here, but it is maybe your parents. Oh, shit.

Okay. And she is clear that she doesn't want to leave. Because she's also very clear that they actually had a very good marriage throughout those 25 years. And that is true, too. And things are not so black and white. And it is not my job to tell this person, nor any friend's job to tell this person.

And talk about the shame because 25 years you have a lot. She doesn't want the family to know because she doesn't want them to pity her for staying with him. And she doesn't want them to be angry at him because then she can't love him if they're all despising him. So she's not carrying the secret about the secret. Right. and the shame

that's so And we don't have We can't be so judgmental about that No we can't It's like I've had people on the show before That have come on and talked about staying after cheating And the way the internet has just Like torn these women apart

And it's like but it's their life And everyone's like well you don't respect yourself And it's like but Do you know that? Do you really you don't know that This person may have done so much work within that relationship to repair it. Like, why are you so triggered?

It's her life. Look, everything on where should we begin was to say to people, we don't really know what's happening in the private lives of other couples. At all. And it's very easy these days because you can anonymously state your opinions on every platform you want without any consequence. Is there, Esther, a timeline in terms of, as a couple therapist that you're like repair should fall within a little bit of this timeline.

If not, like, you can't keep going back and forth of like, you cheated, I need these answers and we're five years down the line or can it just be forever? No. No. I think, yeah, you can be forever, but you will be stuck in a marital cell, you know, or a relational cell of any sort. No, I think that sometimes if, if, if, If you can't accept it, if you can't learn to live with it, if you can't find a place for it in your life, then you may need to make a decision. Or if you live with someone and you've done all the repair and all the showing up that was necessary and your partner is still coming back to you every day, every time you're five minutes late, you may need to think about that. What do you want to do? So, no, I don't think people need to remain stuck in misery, you know, and in blame cycle.

all the time but at the same time for some people they still prefer that you know and and you make sense of it you understand why they prefer that you understand the stories and the real the childhoods they've had etc it's it's very important for us not to become the public square that oozes with with just about as if we know when we don't. We don't know if people are also taking care of elderly or sick children or their other reasons. I love that too, just even to close out on that cheating chapter for anyone listening.

Like, we all have those people in our life that, whether it's your sister or your friend or whoever that stays, there is understandably a anger. within you as someone who loves them because you are protective of them and you you think I want better for them. But again, we all know the extreme level of intricate detail that goes into why we are who we are that no one will ever understand even if you explain so many times. Like you're living in your own body with your own trauma and your own history. And so as much as you say you want better for them, if they genuinely are saying to you this is what they want, at some capacity, you have to also relinquish control of trying to dictate other people's lives, because

what does it affect you? So there are two parts of what they want that I think are often not spoken up. It's one thing to think you are not trustworthy, but it's another thing to doubt your own self-trust, your own self-confidence. And the idea that you could have made a bad decision, that you made a bad choice, that the deal, the bargain that you struck with yourself, that you were going to be with somebody who would never do such a thing to you, that you purposefully didn't stay with the person

with whom you had much more passion and much more intensity. You chose someone who was safe and stable and you thought that person will never cheat on me. My ex did that. And then this person does it. And then you have to deal with your own reckoning. So that's one. The second one is that sometimes,

you stay, not because you're weak and because you let the other person roll all over you, but because you're actually silently admitting to yourself that you know that you contributed in some way too. I mean, the loneliness is one of the most important reasons why people see connection elsewhere. Let's talk about intimacy. What do you do? Because I truly believe this is one of the biggest, most prominent issues in every single relationship, not every single, but a majority, is like when you and your partner have different ideas of intimacy, of how much you want it, of how often, like physical intimacy, physical intimacy, touch, affection, sex, like, touch, affection, sex, like, what do you do when you're on different pages in a relationship with that?

I think that the interesting thing is that people seem to be talking about sex with everybody, but the least is with the person they're actually having sex with. And in the beginning, you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to talk about it. And then you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to jinx it. And then you don't want to talk about it because you didn't talk about it before. And then I mean, it's just like, you know, and then you only talk about it when there is crisis. For a lot of people, by the way, connecting it to the previous. question, infidelity becomes the moment where people start to talk about a lot of things that

they put under the rug for a long time. And finally, you know, the shit hits the fence. So now we start to discuss all our grievances, our resentments, our longings, our disappointments, our unfulfilled needs, et cetera, et cetera. And it's like had you talked about that? No. Maybe it wouldn't have gotten there. No. And monogamy and all of those issues. It's like, you know, and more so in straight couples, actually. You know, especially around monogamy and questions like that, and exclusion and boundaries and all of that. So then there is what do we talk about?

What is candid communication, you know, around physicality? It's even, I touch you, do you like it? I just saw you twitch, you know, do you want me to continue? Shall I stop? Instead of guessing, they seem to like it. They don't seem to like it. I don't know. you know, I do, they don't respond.

Is it because of me? Is it because they're tired? Is it because, you know, okay, I won't do it anymore. Ask, check in, talk. Sometimes you may get unpleasant answers. That's okay. So that's the first thing. Then you have discrepancy of desire, you know.

What happened there? I think that there is a big difference between sex and eroticism. Between doing the act for which you may do. a lot and feel very little. And doing very little for which you may feel a lot, which is the erotic that involves your imagination, touch, meaning. Why, the experience

of it rather than just the act of it? It's not just, sex is not just something you do. It's a place you go. A lot of things happen there. So what happens to you? That's a question. Where do you go? Why do you hold back? What ignites you?

What blocks you? Is it on your mind? is it not on your mind? Is there something that has been unpleasant that you've never talked about? Does it hurt and you never say anything? In order to want sex, it needs to be sex that is worth wanting.

And many times, women, girls, wanted less, not because they're less interested in it, but because it's not the sex that they want. It's not what they're looking forward to. So how much are you able to express that? Sometimes you do it in writing, sometimes you do it by playing a game. Sometimes there are lots of ways that people learn to become more at ease talking about

the very topic that they spend their entire childhood learning not to talk about. I mean, let's be facing that too. You take a subject on which that has constantly been hidden and suddenly you need to be able to be all eloquent about. So that's not so easy. It's difficult. It's so difficult. And that's such a great point even to just ease all of our minds.

I understand that it is sometimes really hard and awkward and to talk about it with your partner because sometimes from what I've experienced in the past and what people have written into me is like it just feels like if I approach this, it's going to come off like I'm not happy. And then it's going to be so awkward the next time we go to have sex because he's just going to be thinking about like, well, you literally just complained that you're like not enjoying it. And it's like, no, the way that you approach the conversation can dicta. so much of how it goes. The way you do it,

you know, I wrote mating in captivity 20 years ago all about what is desire in relationship. How do we sustain it? Then I did the desire bundle. It's a whole course with these kinds of questions. And one of the things I understood is one of the main shifts that we as women

need to do is instead of saying I don't enjoy it, is to say I would enjoy it a lot more. If I very much like when you do and I would love it if you did more. Go with what you ask for. Women have always learned to say what they don't like when it comes to sex. They have not been necessarily trained to actually speak about their wishes, their needs, their preferences, their likes. Go to your partner, male, female,

them and say, you know, I like when, I would love if. It would please me a lot if you could do that. that's a way to not have the other person the next time saying, oh shit, I don't want to approach you because you've just told me that you really don't like you know. Now I've lost my entire sense of confidence. I thought you liked it. Because you faked it. I love that so much too because I think it's very relatable for anyone listening where you're in a situation where you become so comfortable with your partner in every

aspect of life. And then this thing over here that's one of the most important aspects of your relationship, you never talk about. So then it does get awkward because the person that's holding on to not being as fulfilled by it. Understandably, the other person is like, how long have you been feeling this way? Like, holy shit. What did I not know? How did I miss it?

You know, that's a form of lying too. Sometimes, by the way, that is a betrayal too. For six years, you haven't said a thing to me? Because what are they supposed to do? Or you've been fantasizing about someone else or you've been not liking it? and make and pretending to me, that sometimes hurts no less than you've been, because you've been elsewhere.

Whether you've been elsewhere alone or you've been elsewhere, I feel like you have just, you know, I thought I was with you in this, and I've just discovered that I was by myself. Let's talk about codependency. Yeah. When you're in a serious relationship, understandably your lives become fused together, right?

You do so many things together. You're living together most of the time. What are some signs, though, that you have gotten yourself into a situation that is fully codependent? When you are cold, I'm not instantly cold. You've got your own body temperature, and I can say, oh, that's interesting.

I can't say, how can you be cold? I'm not cold. Why should you be cold? I'm the thermometer. When you're hungry, I'm not immediately hungry. When you're tired or when I'm tired, you're not instantly tired. We have a different system. But somehow, when you're upset or when you're sad or when you're anxious or worried, that instantly makes me anxious. Because your feelings are my feelings. If you're unhappy, that makes me unhappy or I think that you're unhappy because it's me. What did I do? What did I do? What's wrong? So I use the temperature and the hunger and the tiredness because people immediately understand it. When it's physical, they understand where I stop and where you start. We are two separate people.

We are close. We are not fused. We are not that enmeshed that what happens to me happens to you. But when it comes to the emotional level, for many of us, that is not how we grew up either. We grew up with somebody who wanted their feelings to become our feelings, their needs to become our needs. And so we have not known where to know where is the line where I stop and you start. That's where codependency lives. If someone is sitting here being like, you know what, Esther, there's a chance. There is a really good chance that I am in a codependent relationship. I do love my partner and I think we've just like fallen into this.

It's really it's not toxic by choice. Like it just happened. What are some steps that you can take within your relationship to reconnect with yourself and build back your individual identity while still remaining in a relationship? I think the first thing you do is what belongs to you and what belongs to them. don't personalize. It's a strange thing. It's what you said before,

you know, somehow sometimes it's even worse if it has nothing to do with you. It's like I would rather be part of a bad story than not be part of the story at all. Cast me, please. That's like literally the entire internet. They're like, this isn't my life,

this isn't my situation, but I'm in it. And it's like, wait, what? You know, it's like, it's not your story. And if, when, and you know sometimes what it means because a friend can tell you, you something and you don't instantly think it's you. Why do people personalize it though? Because

there are only two relationships that really mirror each other. The one you had with your family or your original caretakers, caregivers and the one you have in your romantic intimacies. Those too much. People can tell you I don't have this with any of my friends and I believe them. You don't. I'm sure. You know to maintain that differentiation is what we call this. That there are two people here and when one person feels something, the other person can feel for them, but they're not feeling the same thing as them. Esther, I could talk to you for 10 hours. I am so happy that you came today because I needed, and I know the daddy gang needed all of this.

I think even from the beginning. You still called him the daddy gang. Daddy gang. Oh, they're still the daddy gang girl. I remember the first time you told me that. Oh, man, I remember the first time you said it and you were like, Daddy Gang, listen to me. And I was like, Esther Perel just acknowledge the daddy gay. That was, oh my, that was everything.

And it still is. I am going to go back and listen to it and like take notes. I have so many thoughts. I have so many episodes I want to make from this episode. You're so wise and you're so brilliant and you're so warm and generous with your time. And I just can't thank you enough for taking your time because I know you're so busy to like sit down with me and give us and impart all of your wisdom. on the daddy gang in myself. I care about it.

And I see people struggling more and more. And I also know that there is nothing that matters more in our lives. You know, it's like you have daddy gang. I have the quality of your life is determined by the quality of your relationships. And everything else follows from there. I can't thank you enough. It's a pleasure to be here. We can do another episode soon.

We have so many topics. we could have covered. I'm like, I know we went even for longer than I expected, but um, thank you, thank you, thank you. And congrats on all of your success. I love just watching you and the wisdom and all the things that you have given to society truly. And like, thank you. Thank you for always coming and stopping by and giving me your time. Anytime.