Call Her Daddy - Gayle King: He Cheated with My Best Friend

Episode Date: May 27, 2026

Join Alex in New York City for an interview with Gayle King. Gayle opens up about navigating sexism and racism in the industry and her 50-year friendship with Oprah. She details the moment she discovered her ex-husband was having an affair with one of her friends and how she eventually ended that marriage. Gayle also reflects on aging, confidence, and embracing every version of herself. Enjoy! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Gail King, welcome to Call her Daddy. I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you so much. I'm so, so happy to be here with you. I know you're also very busy, so thank you for taking the time to sit down with me. Like you're not busy. We are, as a kids say, booked and busy. And you were one of the kids. No. So are you, Gail. Okay. I feel like one of the kids. Honestly, God, I feel like one of the kids. No, you just told me, you're like, you did your whole morning show. You're here and then you're going to be on

Broadway later. I'm like, yes, yes. And no time for us. Broadway tonight. Broadway tonight. Okay. For the past 14 years, you have been hosting the CBS Morning Show. And in addition to that, you are the editor at large of Oprah Daily. Yes. You have had such a successful career. And I'm just so excited to get into all of it with you today. I realized something, though. What? Last time we were together. Yep. We kind of went viral. Actually, you went viral. No. No. No. You went viral. No, no, no, you went viral because... What happened? Okay, let's tell the people if they're not familiar.

What happened? So I went on Gail's show and... CBS mornings. Yes, she did. CBS mornings, you know. And Gail proceeds to ask me what my favorite sex position with my husband is. Like, that's an unfair question to you. And absolutely fair question. However, I swore I saw like the cameraman dropped to the ground.

The lights are like falling. People are running in the background. You're on air. We're calling standards. Literally. And your co-hosts were like, everyone looked shocked. The paramedics came rushing in. Did anyone know that you were planning to ask me that? No. No. Okay. I figured. And it's not like I was thinking what would be fun. It's just that Alex, my thing is, I believe anything can be asked. It depends, but you have to have the right setting, the right inflection, the right person. Like, you know, and I wouldn't ask that of most people. But because you are you and what you do, I knew you would get the joke. I knew you would get the joke. I so got the joke. And it's so crazy when the internet runs with things because I'm like, guys, this has been, this is what I got started on.

This is how I did get my success or my money or whatever you want to say. Like, that was the origin days, right? And so I love that you paid ode to it. But literally people's faces were like, I was also laughing. I'm like, what if I did answer it on it? Like, they like tackle me to the ground. Okay, but being on a morning show. Yes. We need just hear it from you. Like, what is the morning routine and how early are you waking up? What's going on?

I mean, it's crazy. I wear this watch so I can figure out how much sleep I'm not getting, which I'm very worried about. You as a mother to be, you're going to have to do better than I am. Like last night I got four hours and eight minutes of sleep. Gail. That is not good. That's not good. But the schedule that I have, for me, there's no way around it. So I don't get great sleep. You know, you get hot flashes sometimes. Yours are coming later. You can wait for that. So my schedule's nuts. I like to take a bath every day. Some people do showers. I like bath. Do you like showers or baths? I like both, but I have to be in specific mood for my bath. Oh, no. I have a bath every day. So I'm sitting there in the tub with all the bubbles. I like bubbles. Car comes and picks me up. Then you go to the studio. We have meetings before the show. I have, you know, hair and makeup. You know, a little something about that because I don't wake up this cute. It takes a village. And then we're off to the races. What time do you wake up? The alarm goes off at 3.24. So I need three snoozes.

I'm not one of these people. Maybe you are that the alarm goes off. You jump out of bed. I need three snoozes. I need a little bit of time too. No, I sort of crawl out of bed, turn on the bath, water crawl back into bed and do three snoozes. Oh, you go right into the bath? Yes.

Yes, yeah. Wow. And it's like, wake up. And so you're going to be out late tonight? Well, this is unusual. I try not to stay out too late, but this is going to be a different kind of night because they asked me, would you turn this down? Rita Wilson, you know her. She's putting together a group of people to read celebrity biographies on stage. And so she said, would you be willing to do it? Yes, I'd be willing to do that. There are some things, Alex, you'll see, that are worth staying up late on a school night. This is one of them. But usually, what time do you go to bed? Well, it's not good. Well, you're like, don't ask you that. I'm not out, but it's not good. I know. I feel like, I remember when I watched the morning show with Reese and Jennifer and I was like, this is so crazy.

that it is dead dark outside and you ladies are just getting and it's your real life. Yes. They're just acting it. You're living it. Yep. But I still love it. You love it. Yeah, I do.

Before, obviously, you were Gail King in terms of just your massive success and everyone knowing your name and who you are. I want to go back. You had to pay your dues. You were a production assistant at a local TV station in Baltimore. In Baltimore. Can you talk to you about like early on? What do you think made you stand out?

Well, I've always been a chatty person. You know, I can remember in fourth grade, my parents getting a note, Dear Mr. and Mrs. King, Gail is very bright, but she talks a lot in class and tends to be disruptive. I say all this to say, I've always been curious about what people are doing and how they do it. So what made me stand out is people could feel that about me. And there's a difference between being a brown noser and being really genuinely interested in what you're doing. I don't know how to explain it, but I do know the difference between somebody that's just kissing your ass just because or somebody who's genuinely interested. I was always genuinely interested.

And so that stood out to people. I always say, get a job. When you get a job, make sure the boss knows your name, but in a good way. I was that type of kid. Okay. That's what I was going to ask you for a young woman right now getting into the workforce. Yeah. What advice would you give them to make a strong first impression to have the boss know them in a positive way?

Well, my whole thing is I pride myself on preparation. I'm always super prepared. I say preparation is my superpower. And when you are prepared, even if it doesn't go according to plan, there's always something you can pull out of your back pocket to say, okay, well, that didn't go the way I plan it. Let me come up with something else. So I think you have to be super prepared. You know, when you're on an interview, even if you don't have a friggin question, ask one.

You know, I can see, I can always tell interns who are going to make it. There are some that are sitting there. They're just looking at their watch. You see them too. And there are others that are saying, you know, do you need anything? How can I help you do? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You notice those type of people.

It's a good point. They're proactive about their approach. It's a great point. At that same job in Baltimore is where you met your lifelong best friend, Ms. Oprah Winfrey. This year, we will have been friends, Alex, listen to this for 50 years. No, we're going to get to that because when I found that out, it made me. emotional and also well...

You have a best friend. I do and I think whenever you have that like one person in your life, you're like, oh my gosh, that is your person. And so you think about that person in a way and I feel like you guys are the embodiment of friendship which I want to talk about today. 50 years.

Yes. Can you take me back to that night that you guys met and like tell me what happened? So I'm the production assistant. She's the anchor and in newsroom hierarchy, I'm here and she's here. There's bad, bad snowstorm.

And she invited me to spend the night at her house. We didn't really know each other well, but we were both, you know, 21, 22, young black, single women. I went to her house, I said, but I don't have any clothes. She goes, I have clothes. We were both size 10 then. I said, you know, I don't have a toothbrush. She goes, I have, you know, we can stop at the drugstore. I draw the line.

I'll stop and we'll get a drug that we'll get a toothbrush. She said, I don't have underwear. She goes, I have underwear. It's clean. So that night, it's like. You must feel this about your best friend, Laura. You know her. Yeah. We went that night and we stayed up all night talking. We found out we had similar philosophies. Do you think so-and-so is boinking? What do you think about that? Or I don't like so-and-so and so-and-so. I heard her say one day on TV where she goes, you know, I don't believe in gossip. I called her and said, since when? Yesterday? So, but we spent that whole night talking about people and found out that we had similar philosophies. We've been friends ever since. That is one of the best moments where you're like, I know we should go to bed, but I cannot stop. I know.

And when you find that with a girlfriend, it's stronger than almost anything you can ever find in your life, right? Because I find, I know, maybe you feel this too. I know a lot of people. But when it comes to true friendship, that circle is very, very, very, very small. Because you could tell her anything. Anything. And you know it won't be betrayed. You will not be betrayed.

And you're right. It's like there is, of course, a beautiful element to different types of friends. But the ones that are like that is your person, it's the tiniest, tiniest crew. And it should be that way. All you need is one. All you need is one. All you need is one. I'm curious, like, as you guys were coming up in your careers, in what ways were you able to lean on each other while you were both navigating this very heavily male dominated industry? I think most of the time we were just oblivious. She and I both thought, you know, you were, hard, you do the job. You know, we weren't thinking about we were women. We weren't thinking we were black. We were just thinking, let's just work and do a good job. And I think that was our mindset, too,

very early on. And it was only, I know, I know we laugh about that now like, God, we were so naive. Of course that was racist. Of course that was sexist. You know, but that, at the time, that is not the lens that we viewed it through. We've looked back later now and we can see things very differently. But we were both just, you know, and then we went off to different jobs, but we still stayed in touch. And it's been so interesting to see, you know, because she was Oprah Winfrey. Now she's Oprah, Winfrey had lights. It was fun for me to see that, that change. That was kind of fun. That's something I wanted to ask you about because I think there is still this narrative that there is only room for a select amount of women to be at the top. And people have such a

I think a hard time understanding like, well, how is there not jealousy between you and Oprah? Like, how is there not? And I have even seen, like, there are literal people who have said, like, oh, well, Gail, you're just existing in Oprah's shadow. Like, how have you both navigated in a form, like getting pitted against each other? Well, my thing is this, Alex, I say I never see myself in her shadow. I always say I see myself in her light. And I do mean that. I see myself in her light. I have never not once thought, God, I wish I could be her. I think I can do what she does, because I don't believe that. I think as alike as we are, there are also some differences. Like, I love people. I love lights, camera, action, and Oprah's very fine sitting at home with a book.

Like, I can remember in Chicago, Princess Diana was in town. Princess Diana, a private party, I called to say, what are you wearing? She goes, I'm not going. You're not going? She goes, No, I have this, this is, I mean, I would have trampled little children had I been invited to something like that. Like, Oprah, we got to go. And she's like, babe, I'm on chapter 20. I know, exactly. I'm relaxing. That's exactly right. Oh, interesting. I was in Connecticut. She's in Chicago. So I called to say, what are you wearing? What time? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. She goes, no, you know, I have X, Y, and Z to do. That is not how I live. If I have a once in a lifetime experience, and that is a once in a lifetime experience, except. Yep, later on, she did have a private lunch with Princess Diana at the palace back of the day. So there, yes, there's, there's, that's called Flex. Yeah, you're like, hold on, hold on. Where's my invite for that? Hold on. I am not passing up once in a lifetime experiences. I get that. But I am happier for her sometimes than she is for herself. And I had my own life, too. That's what's so beautiful is like when you have a friendship where you're both trying to succeed.

And I've been talking about this a lot with my friends because we're all on different paths. success also looks different to everyone, right? Exactly. Is it a job? Is it family? Is it whatever it be? Friendship. But I think there's so much intense fixation specifically on women when it comes to this.

And it just isn't for men for some reason. Do you think that we've made any progress that like one woman's success doesn't take away from the others? Like, do you think people are starting to be more acclimated to that concept? I would like to think so. Yeah. I would. I would like to think so because the truth of the matter is there. really is room. And so just because you have something, it doesn't take anything away from me,

when you feel good about yourself, and I do, when you feel good about yourself, it's only if you don't feel that you measure up that maybe you're jealous of somebody. I also just feel like, speaking of 50 years, you both have probably been there for each other in the darkest, hardest moments. And she's been down. And usually if she's down, you're up. And if you're down, she's up. And that is friendship where it's like someone has to in the moment be the anchor when the other person is going through it. And it always should be flip-flopping because that's life, right?

And if it is always one person that's needing it, needing it, needing it, needing it, then that's probably not as balanced of a friendship. And it feels like you guys have been able to navigate decades together in this beautiful push and pull of you need me. I got you. I need you. That's just how it is. will there be a party for this 50th anniversary?

I know, you know, the other day, about a month ago, she said, I think, she said, I'm thinking about having a friendship party and telling everybody to come and bring their Oprah or bring their Gail. Wouldn't you guys come? I like that idea. Gail? Yeah. I actually have never asked anyone this because I wouldn't.

But, yeah, I would love an invite to that party. No, the friendship party, whether it's male, female, your sister, yes. Just celebrating friendship. And, you know, people that have a true friend understand what this is. You know, the other people that don't, they go, well, you know, they're blah, blah, blah, fill in the blank about whatever you want to say about us. But people who have a true friendship, women in particular, really get it. They get it.

They really get it. And that's why I was so excited to talk to you about this, because I feel like a lot of my listeners right now are at this impasse where they're in their maybe 20s, late 20s, 30s, and friendship sometimes can get put on the back burner when everyone's trying to find their person, right? Or they don't have friends, Alex. So many people these days don't even have friends. Yes. And it feels, it can feel so isolating.

You can feel really disconnected. And I find that the most beautiful relationships in my life, of course I love my family and my husband, but like really having that girlfriend or those girlfriends that can have your back. it made me emotional for you when Oprah said this about you when Barbara Walters interviewed her a few years ago. And she said, she is the mother I never had. She is the sister everyone would want. She is the friend that everyone deserves.

I don't know a better person. And she said she never really expressed that before. I know, I got choked up watching that. I'm sitting there watching Barbara Walters eating my popcorn. And then I called her and said, oh, my God. I can't believe what you just said. Because I never thought about myself in that capacity, all those things to her, to her. But we do have a very unique bond.

I got in trouble once when I said, you know, because I'm single alert and available. I said, if I could meet a guy that was like Oprah, I'd be done. And then people took that all out of context, as they often do. I mean, I said, you know, when I died, I'd like to come back as one of her dogs. They travel very well, Alex. Kashmir private planes. Sign me up. I want to come back as one of Oprah's dogs. I'm right there with you. I don't care if that's shallow. Okay, wait, two things. Number one, why do you think that you never thought or saw yourself like that when you heard Oprah say that about you? Because we're just living our lives. People say, what do you guys do? What do you talk about? I go everything and nothing. You know, don't you call in, you don't even have anything really to talk about other than what you're doing?

You're like eating in the pantry, you're walking around your kitchen. No, mine is Betty Crocker chocolate frosting out of the can. Love, love. You're just like eating your frosting. Right. And she's like, Gail. You're like, what are you doing? You know, so it could be big things. It could be little things.

Isn't that interesting, though, that sometimes the closest people to us in our life, we don't say those things. No, no. But it took me back to think that I was that or I am that. but I feel that about her too. All you need, number one, she knows I would never betray her. People come to me. I also think once you've been in the inner circle, even if we had a falling out today, I would not say, I would not write a book, I wouldn't do any of that stuff that I see people do.

Because once you've been in the inner circle of anyone's life, it's a really privileged place to be. And I hold that very sacred. I know I can trust her with anything. And she, me. Everyone has it. Different degrees, obviously being public people is one thing, but everyone has it, whether it's high school, college, you're at your job. Like anything when it comes to loyalty and trust, there is such, there are people who want to blindly trust and want to believe in the good and humanity and believing in people and the connection that you're building right in front of your face. And when you find out something happened behind closed doors that you somehow find out about, it's so disorienting. And it makes you really. rethink a lot of things going on around you. It does. But it doesn't make you rethink those people that have always been your day once. I mean, that's why, you know, Oprah has such a good spidey sense. I can remember when I had a boyfriend in high school who I just thought was the cutest da da da da da da. I hadn't

talked to him in 20 years and he reached out to me and said, you know, he would like to see me. And I was like, yes, I would love to see you. And Oprah said, don't bring him to your house. I go, why? She said, because you haven't talked to him in 20 years. You don't know him. I go, Yeah, but he was da-da-da-da-da. She goes, I'm telling you, don't bring him to your house. Well, of course, I brought him to my house. So I met in New York, and I said, I met in New York, and I said, I like how this is going. Come back.

I lived in Connecticut at the time. And so we brought him back to the house in Connecticut. And she called and said, how did it go? I go, it was great. She said, you didn't bring it in the house. I go, no, I didn't. You told me not to. Of course I didn't bring him back to the house.

She goes, well, that's interesting. So you didn't bring him? I go, no, I didn't. didn't. Why are you asking? She said, because the National Inquirer has called, and they said they're calling with a story from, and said his name, that he said he spent the weekend with you and that he was at your home and that there is a shrine to Oprah in your home, which is absolutely not true. There's a shrine to Oprah in your home, and he has evidence of that, and they wanted to know if I had a comment about that. So I was totally busted. Totally, totally busted.

only to find out Alex, he was a cocaine addict. So there was a time that I had fallen asleep. We had had burgers. It was great. We were cooking on the grill. We were in the hot tub. And I did fall asleep because I felt safe. Mr. Mann had gone around taking pictures, had pictures of me sleeping,

and was offering to sell it to the National Enquirer. But Oprah, she set me up so beautifully. She said, so you didn't bring him? No, because you said, no, don't bring them. No. We went to a play, I said, and then we went to a restaurant. I named all we went for a carriage ride in Central Park. She's like, so you weren't wearing your blue nighty last night and you weren't sleeping

to the left side of the exactly 11 because he took a picture of you and you're like, shit. So the goal, basically the whole rule is always trust Oprah. Yes. That's a good rule. Literally, always trust Oprah. Wait, Gail, no. I know. But even that.

first of all, the lack of privacy and the complete invasion of the complete lack of boundaries, the entitlement, the like the intentions are so off. Clearly he had a vision of what he wanted to do that night. Alex, I don't think he liked me. Alex, I think the whole thing was a setup. So I felt stupid with two O's. I would say no, no, but the shrine comment? You're like, he had an agenda. Yes, yes, yes. A shrine of Oprah is actually psychotic. And then he went through the 12-step program where you're supposed to call people that you've offended or something or whatever the word is. He called because he wanted to apologize. That's when I heard he was a cocaine addict at the time. And he just wanted to apologize to me.

And I was like, boy, bye. You're like, you know what? I wish I kept you back in high school and you should have stayed there because what the hell. But he was cute. And he was taking pictures of you sleeping. Not so cute. Okay, wait, Gail, also in memory of, you know, the shrine and also you saying that people, people literally to the point have made comments that they are like, there's no way this isn't a romantic relationship. I know.

I know. And I know. I don't even want to speak for you, but like, tell me how that feels when you guys have had to handle those headlines, handle those rumors, handle that speculation. Well, I tell you this. It used to really bother me. I was recently divorced, and the National Enquirer did a story about that's the reason for the divorce because they're secretly gay. Number one, if we were gay, we would tell you. Because believe me, there's nothing wrong with it.

It's just, I prefer a man. I prefer a man. So we would tell you. And then I would say to her, you've got to say something on your show because it's hard enough for me to get a date on a Saturday night. And now people think, I'm a lesbian. You've got to say something. And she said, no, we should just leave it. I said, no, you've got to say.

She said, no, just leave it alone. Leave it alone. So, well, that's fine for you to say, you have somebody. I don't. So it used to really bother me. And now, even today, there's still people that say, well, you know, the truth is, I don't care. I've now gotten to the point in my life that very few things get to me. Because, you know, when you go on social media, it is an accelerator on hate.

as long as I feel good about what I'm doing, the people I respect and trust are okay with it, who will say, well, mom, maybe you shouldn't have done that or somebody will, somebody whose opinion I value. Otherwise, you'll drive yourself nuts. So now I really don't care. I really don't. I am sorry, though, that you have to deal with that because I also just feel like that is a clear indicator, the people who are saying that. There's two options. Number one, they have never had a genuine gorgeous female friendship in their life. But do you know what I mean? Yes, I do know. And then the other one is, again, it's for the salaciousness and it's so sexist.

And it's so, it's just horrible that they put you in that position. But it is also a weird thing. And again, I guess we always should just listen to Oprah. But it's like when to speak up and when not to, right? And that's a hard thing that I'm sure you've had to navigate in your career. Because in that moment, I agree. You'd be like, hey, guys, like. Say something.

Yeah. Sometimes when the noise gets too much, I feel at least let me say my piece, whether it's about that or something else. just so I'm on the record of it. But most of the time I just, I'm not going to, you know, there have been news stories and they say TMZ is out front. Do you want to go out the back door? I go, no, I don't. I don't want to look like I'm some criminal with my thing over my head or I, so my thing is always be prepared. Sometimes you can just say, you know what, I don't want to talk about that or I don't have anything to say or good to see you.

But I don't want to look like I'm running from. running from something when I know I haven't done anything wrong. I think it's a great point. Can I ask you a couple questions about friendship for our listeners today? Yes, yes, yes. There is a really big conversation online, especially around women right now, about honesty and advice in friendship. And I would love your take. At what point do you think being brutally honest can become too much?

And like, is there a line you can cross with friendship? I think it depends on the friend. I think it depends on the friend. So I would tell if somebody I was really close to, if I'm not so close, I'm staying out of it. So it really does depend on the type of friendship that you have. I used to joke with Oprah all the time when people said, you know, what would you do if you caught Gail and Stedman in bed together? Because I did catch a friend in bed with my husband. What would you do? And I always say to her, you shouldn't even be mad. You should just say, oh, I can tell you're having a breakdown. Let me get you to the hospital. I can tell there's something very wrong. This is not you. You're having a breakdown. So here, hon, let me take you and let's go to the hospital together to get you some help. Because I would have lost my friggin' mind. There are some lines you just don't cross.

Right. You're like, no, I would have to be admitted because there's just no way. I don't lost my mind. Okay, that's good. Has being radically honest in a friendship ever backfired on you? Not a friendship that mattered. That's the difference, Alex. Not a friendship that mattered.

And I also think like kind of what you said. Like it also depends on the friend and it's very important also your delivery. Like you need to read where the friend is at. If you know they just went through this horrible thing and you know she needs to break up with the boyfriend but she's not ready yet. You going in and being like he you have to dump your not shit boyfriend. Like you're just pouring salt in the wound. Right. It has to be a very concerted effort to be thoughtful about the.

way that you're approaching it and how you're delivering this to them because they're clearly the ones that are not in a positive situation right now. Exactly right. And you say, you know, please take this in the spirit in which it's intended. And there's a difference between being radically honest and being cruel. Such a good point. And that just takes reading the room and being a good person to know when to go in and be honest. Yes, yes, yes. I know Oprah had an opinion on your ex-husband. Oh, Lord. Yes, she did. I want to talk a little bit more about that marriage. I know, because you just mentioned, infidelity was one of the major reasons that it ended. Yeah.

And I want to get to that. But first, before the affair, how are you feeling about that relationship? Like, were you happy? It's a good question. I was happy. And you know how they say the wife always knows, I swear to God, I did not. I did not. And people say, what, of course you know.

No, I really didn't. Now, it's not like we hadn't had arguments or anything, but I didn't think. that it was in such disrepair that he was boinking around. I did not. I did not think that. When, if you were happy, do you think it shifted for you? Well, I mean, you know, hindsight is always 20-20. I always say if I was writing a book, the first line in my book would be whack the sound of a tennis ball. And she said, nice shot, Bill. And the way she said it, there was such a intimacy in her voice that I had a, the hair stood up on the back of my neck and I thought, why am I feeling that way?

It was weird. Why am I? Because she was married too. We were married. We both had two little kids. So our kids were friends. The spouses were friends. But there was something about the way she said, nice shot, Bill.

Then I looked and it looked, I thought, did I see them looking at each other? And when I asked him in the car, what are you talking about? about. They try to gaslight you, by the way. What are you talking about? And so he goes, absolutely not. So I did think, oh, you're just overreacting to what? But I did have a visceral reaction to that. That said, I still didn't think anything. And Oprah always says, you know, sometimes you get a whisper. And then when you ignore the whisper, then it becomes a little pebble. And then you ignore the pebble. And next thing, you know, it keeps going. And then you have a full-blown catastrophe. Mine was, I came home and caught him. I wasn't due home. I wasn't due home. So, but, you know, people say, the therapist said, it probably had to be that extreme for you to believe it. Because if you had caught them and they weren't buck naked Alex in my friggin' towel, if you hadn't seen it, you might, he might have said, oh, she was just over here. We were, you know, we were working on something. Yes, working on a problem, something. Okay, wait. Can you take me to that day? Like, how did you walk in on that?

Well, this was back in the day when you would go, I used to drive myself to the airport then, Alex. Yes, you did. Yes, you did, Ms. Kale-King. Before Uber and Lyft and when you call it a car service. But I drove myself to the airport, and the airline would call you to say, listen, your flight has been canceled. But if you get on the next one, you can get out of there. So I got, I was in D.C. and, you know, Kirby and Will were little. They were like two and three at the time. So, you know, I said, guys, we got to hurry. I had driven myself to the airport, so I didn't even have time to call and say, look, the flight was da, da, da, da, da, I'm coming home.

I didn't have time to do anything. We jumped in, got to the airport, got in the car, came home. And the alarm was set, which I thought, that's strange, because you're in here by yourself. You're a big, as grown-ass man. He never sets the alarm. And next thing, I know he comes flying out of the room and he's got a towel on, he goes, you can't come in. what do you mean you can't, I can't come in? What are you talking about? He goes, you can't come here. Come in. Someone's here. I go, someone like who? There's nobody here. I mean, I was so oblivious.

There's nobody here. Get out of the way, Billy. There's nobody here. He goes, really, you can't come in. And so I start searching the house because I didn't believe him. I didn't believe him. I get down, and there they are. Or there she is, cowering behind the door. In my towel, Alex, was a nice bath sheet. In my towel. In my towel. What did you say? I said, I can't believe that you are here and that you are doing this. I can't believe that you are doing this.

She was your friend. Yes. And I even said, I thought we were friends. I sounded so pitiful. I thought we were friends. And so your kids were in the house. How did you manage? Well, I had a nanny.

I had a nanny. She was from Jamaica. And I did leave the kids outside because he was so adamant. You know, they're little toddlers. So, Verge is with the kids. And I said, Verge, take the children and go to the back room, go to the back room and shut the door. And she said, what is it? What is his mom?

What is it? I said, so-and-so is here. Let's give her a nice name. What's a good day? Casey. Yeah, Casey is here. And so she goes, and I said, and they're naked. Now, Verge is an old Jamaican woman.

She goes, Lord of his mercy, Mom. Lord of his mercy, Lord of his mercy. Oh, Mom, she peed in your toilet, Mom. I go, bird, I don't need that right now. I don't need that right now. Just take the kids and just go in the back room and shut the door. So I went back and they said, Mom, is Aunt Casey here? Because they could hear, I said her name. Is Aunt Casey here? I went, no, no, no, she's not here. No, no, no, she's not here. Just stay back here. Now, when I opened the door, the alarm went off. And, you know, You know, if you don't shut it off in time, the police come. Oh, no. So the police came. Gail. The police came. And they said, hey, oh, my God, it's Gail King.

I was a local news anchor. So I was well known in the local community. Hey, it's Gail King. Are you okay? I go, yeah, you know, I was coming in. I didn't set off the alarm in time. I'm so sorry. And they said, could I get your autograph?

And I'm just thinking, yeah, sure, sure. I wanted to say, could you take out the trash? but I didn't, but I didn't. And I didn't want them to know because it's a type of thing that they screw up, but you're thinking I don't want anybody to know when I haven't done anything wrong. I just wanted to get them in and out as quickly as possible. How do you think it was not a good night? No, Gail, but how do you think?

Because sadly, I can imagine there are people actually watching that have gone through something like this. Like how did you stay so composed during that moment? Well, because I was thinking the kids are here. I don't want anybody to know. That was my main thought. I don't want anybody to know. That would not happen to me today. It would be like, get this da-da-da-da-da-da-da, and take her, da-da-da-da-da.

But, you know, I kept thinking I don't want it to be a scene because they're little. They know this person. And you just, my main thing was how do I, which is what I do about most things, how do I handle this situation in this moment? and it was only later. So the first thing I do, and she was married, and I said, I'm calling him, her husband. And he goes, don't call because they have a good marriage. They have a good marriage.

The girl's pajama bottoms are in my bed. They have a good marriage? Don't call, don't call. Where does he think she is? He thinks that she's away at a conference or something. And so he said, please don't call. So he goes, I'm going to take her to the train station so her husband can pick her up so he won't know. So they left and went to the train station. I called Oprah. Oprah goes,

wait, let me get this straight. He left you there alone and went with her? I know your mouth is open. And she said, oh, girl, you don't even know how bad this is. And I'm going, yeah, but he said they had a good marriage. I mean, I'm stupid. Oprah, I love having you as a friend, but let's pretend we're not an interview moan right now because that's a really good point, but I don't want to hear that right now. Oprah, you're like, oh, it is such a good point. It was a good point. It was a good point. a good point. But at the time I couldn't hear it though, Alex. I swear to you, I couldn't hear it. Because I'm thinking, well, God, I don't want to mess up everybody's life. So she said, you don't even know how bad this is. So you never called the husband? No. Did the husband ever find out? No, I called. After

talking to Oprah, two hours later, was she your first call? Oh yeah, she was definitely my first. I didn't tell my mom. I'm close to my mom at the time. My mom is no longer with us. I was very close to my mom. I talked to my mom every single day, twice a day. Because I didn't want anybody to know. I've got three sisters, didn't tell them. The only person I told was Oprah, the only person. And then she said, well, Akim, call her husband. I go, you think I should call? Yes, call. Now, by now, it's been two hours. So I call him, and he's, you know what he said? He said, she told me you would be calling. She said that you came home early, unexpected, and you drew the wrong conclusion. And she told me you would call and say that you thought they were having an affair.

Masterful, isn't that masterful? Masterful. So I'm expecting this call. So he said to me, and there were both doctors, psychologists, as another layer, he said to me, you are delusional and out of touch with reality, and I suggest you get some help. Well, then I said, okay, you think I should get some help? Does your wife have a pink satin?

pajama top, does she have some green mint panties that go with that? And oh, by the way, give me a guy's name. Richard. By the way, Richard, there are semen stains in my bed. So am I delusional and out of touch with reality? And then I said, go fuck yourself. And I hung up the telephone. I know. Wasn't I strong? I said, go fuck yourself. Wasn't that good at me? Gail. But it took over two hours in Oprah's saying, are you crazy? Are you fucking nuts?

Call him. I went, no, but I can. He said, blah. She goes, what he said? Call him. To get, though, that met with the delusion in that moment. I'm delusioned and out of touch with the reality. Yes.

The rage I would have felt of like, I'm the fucking delusional one. God, I haven't told all these details. This is not good. This is good. This is not good. This is call her daddy, Gail. The girls are going to love you. you. This is not. They're taking notes right now. No, they're going to think she's, but I, I cry for that girl.

No, I know. And that's why. Gail, what's so frustrating, but also why I do love doing this is like, as women, we don't all have an Oprah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of. Shouldn't we have common sense? Yes, but in those moments, I'm sorry, but when a man is calling you and saying you're fucking delusional. And out of touch with reality. And you're in you should get professional. help add that part right right and he's the professional actually you're like wait aren't you the professional emotions sometimes can take over and you forget about common sense and you're in that moment and then you can be like am i the delusional one or or oh my gosh you feel so isolated because they're all on the same team and you're alone so many women go through that feeling and then you're left with maybe it is my fault yeah and and so it's like when we talk about these things it is empowering to be like no no no you saw what you saw you did nothing wrong.

Yep, I did see what I saw. And so many times somehow the woman who walks in and see, it's like you are made to feel like the crazy person. And it's like, how the fuck did we get here? Exactly right. You know, but what's interesting, when you have children, if I hadn't had children, it would have been game over. But we went to counseling, tried to work it out, actually got divorced and got back together.

We actually got divorced and got back together. And then I realized he hadn't really changed, but I was turning into such a true. I would be out in the garage feeling the hood of the car to see if it was warm. I was going through his phone. And I thought, I don't want to live like this. You're losing yourself. Only to find out he was cheating again. He was cheating again.

But now I had to go back with him because he was crying. He was apologizing. And I said, but now he'll be with somebody else and then he'll be all better. And then she'll get. And Oprah, he ain't changed. I go, yes. I said, Oprah, you don't understand because you don't have. children. He was on his knees and he was crying. She goes, yeah, okay. She got so sick of hearing. She got so

sick of hearing. She goes, please go back with him. Please. I will drive the moving band. Please. That's when you realize you're telling people too much. Yeah, Oprah's like, honestly, actually, yeah, sure, go have your happy life with this man. Call me when he does something again. That's so stupid and he cheats on you again. I know she wanted to say, shut the fuck. To her credit, she never did. If you ask her now, she goes, I feel like I went to that fucking divorce. It was exhausting. But now, years, I just saw him. I just saw him yesterday because my grandchild's christening. I just saw him.

He ain't looking so good. He has a new girlfriend. But I am in such a good place that at the weddings and christening's, I'm like, can I get you anything? Him and the girlfriend. She seems very nice and lovely. Can I get you guys anything? I'm so glad you came.

It's good to see you. But that only comes with time. Before somebody would say, how are you? I go, you know, what happened to me? Then you see their eyes glaze over and you go, I just wanted to say hello lady. Oh, I'm not okay. You're like, and another thing.

And they're like, holy shit. Then you realize nobody wants to hear it. And the kids love their dad. The dad loves the kids. So you've got to figure out a way to navigate it. Well, and I think what's so real, what you're saying, Gail, too, is what you're describing is what you literally see in the movies. Yes.

You had one of those. It's a movie. Literally a movie. Like, you had one of those situations happened to you that was so disoriented. so unreal, so grand. So unwell. Unwell to the endth degree. So like all of it.

So disregulating all of it. That then you can still have the feelings toward what that happened to you as a human being. Anyone would be fucked up from that for a second, right? Or a long time. And you can also look at the person and move forward and find your closure. But it doesn't take away from the fact that you still had to walk in with two children and sitting outside and see the person that you were in love with and you had committed your life to and you had gotten married to ruining everything.

Let me tell you another layer since we're just here chatting. When I said to her, I can't believe you're doing this. He said, she said to me, he doesn't even love you. He's only with you for the children and his lifestyle because I was a big time anchor. I was doing very well. He was, I was paying for him to go to Yale Law School, very smart guy, very, very smart. guy. He doesn't even love you. And then what do I do? I go, is that true? I know. Couldn't you cry for her? I could cry for her. I could cry for her, but I also relate to her. Because I've

been her before, too. We've all been there where it's like, where someone cheated? I've, I've been cheated on yes. And I would catch them. I caught him through technology. And I like that. I caught him through technology. technology. I went old school. Yes. And unfortunately, I also saw him naked in the technology. Yes, yes. But that moment, I think we can all relate to something just happens within you as a woman where you're just like, oh my God, like, did I do something wrong? Could I have been better? And there's like a weird thing where you're willing to fight for it because you need a second to regulate and you don't even know why you're fighting for it. And now we can look back with perspective as grown women to be like. I say, thank you, Black Baby Jesus, for saving me, because I'm very glad. I mean, I just said, imagine, you know, and I never badmouthed them to the children. They were young when they became teenagers, and I told them the truth.

But I would never badmouth them, never. And I just said, I'm just so, I wouldn't have this life, honestly. I would not be at CBS. I would still probably, because I love my job. I love being a local anchor in Connecticut. I had a great career. Was very happy there. I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today.

I was at Sirius Exxham where you are today. I had a show there that I loved. I wouldn't be at Oprah Daily. I wouldn't be at CBS. So many things happened because you got. But did you ever find out how long they had been together? Well, he said that it wasn't long. I never did.

But I don't believe anything he says. You know, because at one point, this, God, the more I think about this, she said, she said, because you know what I said, couldn't y'all go to a hotel? He said, that got expensive. So when you say how long, I don't know, I don't know. Gail? See, keep in mind, I was gone all weekend. I know. Gail. I can't believe this shit he said to me. What the, I mean, from the betrayal of a woman looking at you saying he never loved you, he doesn't love you, that is like. No, she said he doesn't love you. He might have, I think he loved him in the beginning. She goes, but he doesn't even love you. He's here for the lifestyle. We had a nice lifestyle.

And the children. And you almost want to say that person, as if you being here naked right now, didn't just kill me. I know. I know. I know. I know. You want to kill me even more by saying that. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. Yes, I know. I know. But it's the gaslighting. But there again, there again, I got to thank Oprah for this. She said, you know what? The fact that she could talk to you that way in front of him, imagine what he has said to her about you. God, she's good.

God, she's good. God, she's good. That's why she's the best. Because I hadn't thought of that. She goes, just the fact that she felt, she felt comfortable enough in your house, buck naked with your towel, that she could put you down in front of him. And he didn't defend you. Imagine what he has told her about you.

Isn't that good? And I go, I haven't thought about it. No, we're all like, damn, Oprah. We didn't think about that one either. Shit, you're good. Oh, wow. She's good. Right.

The disrespect is on another. You're right. She should have been screaming. I'm so sorry. That's what she said. You don't even realize how bad this is. And so she said, listen, I will send, because like I said, she's always had more money than me. She goes, I will send you tickets. You, Kirby and Will, come to Chicago. You just come, just get on a plane and leave. Just come. And I said, but I have the greater Hartford open. And I'm live at five o'clock tomorrow. I can't leave. She goes, the what? What the fuck is that? I go, it's a big golf tournament here that's very important. She's like, look at the fuck about that, Gail. She goes, I will send you guys tickets. I will send you three tickets. Gail, your head has been blown off. You need to get on a plane and you need to come here.

And I go, I can't, I can't. I have the great. I mean, I look at it now and it's just so stupid. You know, though, also, and to her credit, and I love that you said, she never said, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah, no. Talking now to everyone who has been that friend,

who you watch your friend get cheated on, and stay with the person. There is a level of really, really just large frustration that can come with being that friend that you're like, I'm trying to hold it down for you. Yes. And I'm really trying to be. And like you said, Oprah literally was like, honestly, get the fuck back with him at this point. Because I don't know also do you like, you have to just stay so steady for them because you're not seeing it clearly in that moment. No, you're not.

You just need someone to weather that storm with you to just be there with you. And eventually you will be able to. Yeah. The cobwebs come. And you'll be able to sit on the couch and be like, let's just reminisce now that I'm not. But you eventually left. Yes, yes, yes. So you found out he was cheating again.

How did you find out who was cheating again? I mean, I just started, I could just tell. I could just. It was happening. Yeah, it was happening. I didn't catch him. I did not catch him. And of course he denied it.

And I believe he was cheating because when we finally broke up, he was the next weekend. He was with this woman and clearly had been there for a while. When you look back at leaving, because you said there was the stability of your life, which I think is speaking to everyone who's been cheated on and stayed, right, and tried to stay. There is the stability of your life that you almost selfishly, understandably, are so dysregulated in that moment. You're like, you just want to go back to what you had. So you try to repair it. You go to therapy, you try to stay. You then are also in the garage, checking if the car is hot, looking at.

in his pockets, checking if there's little love notes. And I didn't want to be that girl. Yeah. How did you eventually know you had to leave? Well, because I didn't like who I was. Who wants to live like that? I didn't want to be that person. And then keep in mind, Alex, we still stayed in the big, beautiful house. We didn't have to move. I was still working. So it's not like I had to stay because he's, you know, supporting us. It wasn't that. And I just started thinking about it. And I think, you know, I think he probably wanted out of the marriage too, for whatever reason. And I remember that one therapist said, you know, Gail, this marriage can work if you become a doormat. You know, he said to me, my ex said, I'll be so glad when this Gail King shit is over.

Now, listen, I was just a big fish in a little pond. I wasn't even, you know, this. I wasn't, I didn't have this kind of prominence. I was a local news anchor, but I was a big deal in my state where you're well-known. I watch you all the time. And he just, he just didn't like it. Keep in mind, he's a Yale educated lawyer. He's, to this day, one of the smartest people I know. I used to love talking to him, because I love great conversation, very, very smart. So the therapist said, if you want to become a dormant and do everything that he wants you to do, then this marriage can last. And I, but, but it took

me a while to understand that he really, really resented me. He really did. And I think, you know, at the end of the day, he probably didn't like me of all that I represented. And it's not like I walked around like, you know, I'm Gayle King. No, you just had a six. I used to run his bathwater, Alex, a little bit of hot, a little bit of coal. I pick out his clothes because he was colorblind. I mean, I tried to do everything that I thought I would fill up his car with gas so he wouldn't even have to get gas. All the little things and like you said paid the law school. And I wanted to do them. And I want, listen, it wasn't that he asked me. I wanted to do it. I thought that was a loving, kind thing to do. I think that threatened by a woman's success is one of the biggest,

um, easiest, obvious ways to just completely crumble a relationship, but it's so hard to see as a woman. But men say they want women who are successful. And then they get them and they're like, but, but be a little less. And you're like, wait a say you want that, but then you get it. And they're like what. And so to think about you and having someone so threatened by your success, You're so right that like now being out of that, obviously, for a while and being on your own, having gone on, like, you know, dated people, whatever. Like, how have you maintained now a promise to yourself essentially that you will never allow yourself to be with someone who's so threatened? Well, you know, you want somebody who lifts you up. You want somebody who's proud of you.

You want somebody who thinks, God, I think it's great being with you. I'm looking for him. Is he here in the room? Yeah, where he is. No. I prefer a men's body. Something I am interested to know is like throughout your career and, you know, the more successful you obviously got, you had to navigate moments where you did have to speak up.

And, you know, we're talking about this younger woman who was saying, oh, is that true? Do you love me or not? But that also can play into work, right? You unfortunately have also had to deal with racism in your career and in your life. I remember when you interviewed Michelle Obama and you. And you shared that while you were covering the Super Bowl, an executive made super inappropriate comments about your hair. How have you navigated those type of moments? Because we're talking about personal and now we can shift to still personal and work.

Oh, oh, oh. No, he said, interesting, because I wore it curly and he said, oh, that's interesting. Yes, yes, yes. He did say that. Or, or after I had a baby and I'm sitting, you know, you put on a couple of pounds. Hopefully you'll be fine. But you put on a couple of pounds and I came back to work. And you know how when you go into the boss's office and I wasn't looking at his, I wasn't looking at his papers.

But when you see your name, it catches your eye. Even upside down, I saw Gale. And it said Gail's butt. That's what it said, Gail's butt. And he's asking me, we're so glad you're back. you know, how is Kirby, you know, how are you feeling? And I was saying, oh, it's great. I'm so glad to be back. And then he said, yeah, but, you know, could I ask one thing? When you're sitting on the set, could you please sit closer in because your butt hangs over the chair? And it would really, it can be distracting. So when you're sitting, if you could scoot all the way up to the desk, I mean, now, that's offensive. But there again, I'm like, oh, okay. That's what I mean. I mean, I look at that now. The same thing about, are you going to wear your hair like that? Well, that's interesting. I mean, it's, you know, things you don't even think about. But that's, no one can say that to you these days. Nobody. I was going to say, like, how has the way that you respond to sexism and racism evolved throughout your career? Because now. Well, well, now, now you can say, and I have had times with executives. I say, you know what, you cannot speak to me that way. I will go in the office, close the door. I know you're pissed. I know you're upset, but you cannot speak to me that way. So if you're upset, there's a better way that we can handle this because we're all adults. I now have no problem speaking up if somebody is being inappropriate or out of line with me, none. But when you're first starting, I didn't feel the ease about doing that. But I think women today are different. I agree. And I also think it's it is very intimidating. Like, weak, I agree. I hope it's different. But I also, and I remember.

remember when I interviewed Michelle Obama, she said, she was like, here's the reality. You have to be honest about your reality. Where are you in your career? Like, she was like, it's very easy for me as former first lady and someone with power to tell someone you can't do that anymore. But or are you, you know, trying to make ends meet. You're, you need to afford your apartment. This is your first job. I'm not saying put up with a degree that is to the point where it is abusive and an appropriate. But you have to read the room a little bit of, are you going to, how far are you going to take it? And that makes my heartbreak for women because obviously it's systemic and it needs to evolve holistically. This isn't just a one-off woman comes forward and then everything

is going to change. Right, right. But it is fascinating. Read the room. She's absolutely right about that. And I also think sometimes when people are talking about, you should never take abuse on the job ever, ever. But there are times when you're first starting out, you have to work really hard, and you don't always get what you want, and you don't always care for the particular boss that you have. And you just have to know how to navigate that. And you can do that without turning yourself into a pretzel and without doing something that is offensive to you. But sometimes when you're first starting out, you have to work really, you've got to work holidays, you've got to work weekends, you've got to work nights.

And it isn't a matter of some people say, well, you know, my mental health and I have to take care of myself, all of that is true. All that is true. But when you're starting out, there are just certain sacrifices I believe that you have to make to be successful. I also was thinking about in all these experiences that you have had, you've been in really high stakes moments in your career. One that really stands out to me is the interview with R. Kelly, where you addressed the second. sexual assault allegations against him. What was your mindset going into that interview? I didn't know R. Kelly. I'd seen him at different places, but I didn't know him. But I had also seen that documentary. I think most women are telling the truth. Most women, most women,

there are some anomalies, but most women don't make this up because you don't want to put yourself out there that way. Most of them don't. I'm not saying they haven't. I'm not saying I'm not saying it never happens, but most of them don't. I saw the documentary. I believe the documentary. I reached out to him. He knew we were going to talk about it. He knew it. But I didn't have a relationship or rapport with him, as I do with some people that I interview. And he just, when he started screaming, he just went from zero to 200 in a nanosecond. And people said, were you scared? Because he started hitting his hand and, you know, he was, he was screaming. And they said, were you scared? You know, I didn't think he was going to hit me. I thought he

he could accidentally hit me, and that wouldn't be good. But I thought it would be an accident if he did, but I didn't even want to get hit accidentally. But I'd seen interviews with him, Alex, where if he got mad, he would storm away. So I knew if I touched him, said, wait, wait, wait, he would get up and go. So I just sat there very quietly. I looked at him, looked at him, looked at the chair, looked at the chair. At one point, he's screaming a little bit of spit guy right here on my lip. And I said, don't make him move to myself. Don't make him off. Because I thought, if I moved, he would go. And so he could see that I wasn't going anywhere, and he sat back down.

And then we could, because I'm thinking, God, I still got some more questions. I hope he doesn't go. You're like, please sit back down. Please, please, Robert, please don't leave. So he sat back down. We continued the conversation. But it went off the rails, as you know. I called his team the next day to see how he's doing.

Because when you're in it, you don't realize how bad it is. I knew that it was, I knew that he was. was angry, but it was only when I looked at that video that I went, holy shit, I didn't realize that it looked that way. So I called the next day to see, listen, I just wanted to check in, and they said, he's fine. As a matter of fact, he wants to thank you. Thank me for what? Because you allowed people to see his passion and his pain. I go, is that what he saw? Yes, he wants to thank you. I mean, I haven't talked to him since. I would love to talk to him again. I don't know if he would. but I haven't talked to him since then.

But I do think that... What would you like to talk to him about? Because, you know, after that moment he's been in prison, he still is saying he didn't do anything wrong. I don't want to talk to him if he's still going to say to me he didn't do anything wrong. You know, it's like I only wanted to talk to O.J. Simpson if he was going to tell the truth.

I happen to believe that he's responsible for those deaths. And so I wrote him a letter and I said, you know, I'd really like to sit down and talk to you. But I want to have a real honest conversation. So anyway, I just believe that I was able to remain calm because I wasn't afraid. I really didn't think he was trying to hurt me. And I wasn't done with the interview. But you couldn't, I could not have done that if I was just starting out.

I would have been totally rattled and frazzled. I mean, to see, you know, I remember that moment because. the fact that he started yelling, yes, started hitting his hands and then to physically stand up. Yeah. And you just as a woman sitting there, it was so jarring and it was so, everyone I think was so taken aback. And your composure in that moment and to hear the way that you're talking about it, like that takes some serious skill and also what's going through your brain. And my brain was like, God, please, could you please sit back down? That was what was, there was a thought. bubble it would have been oh damn could you please sit back down i mean that though that though goes back to even the beginning of this interview where you were like i'm always prepared yes and you had a vision for what you

wanted to make sure you got out of that interview and it's like you're a professional um but i it was that the most heightened you would say any interview you've ever done has gotten for sure were there even like security in the room there was security in the room okay there was there was security in the room yes it's kind of they showed up but you didn't see them on camera, but they were there. You're like, slow down, boys. Let's see if he takes a seat. Hold on. Hold on. Don't come in yet. Yeah, just not yet. Throughout your career, obviously, you've done so much, but you have made it clear. You have no intention of slowing down. And when you received the Journalist Icon Award this year, you said, quote, I'm not even thinking of retiring. Not even kind of. What are your views on aging?

Listen, I think to be able to do what I do at this stage in my life, I think it's such a blessing and such a kick. I say I live my life full gallop. I really do. I'm so happy, and I really mean this sincerely, to be on the planet, despite all the turmoil and tumult you've heard at CBS, I know there's a lot of great people there working really hard. And so I like being part of that team. We're going through some stuff. of, but I like being part of that team. And so to be able to do this job at this level, I think, is amazing to me, is amazing. What is something that you used to believe about getting older as a human or as a woman that you see completely differently now? I used to think, I remember when my mom turned 50, thinking, God, she's old. I remember that. My mom had me when she was 21. So when she turned 50, I thought, God, and I remember when I turned 50, the AARP sent me a magazine, and I called them and said,

please take me off your mailing list because you get the early bird specials and the coupons. Please take me off your mailing list. I don't even know how they know, but the very next day that damn magazine came. Now I look at that and I think, God, I should have embraced that because I want to send the message that it is good, it is okay. You can thrive. You can be juicy like a beach. you can still have a great, great life. So I regret that I did that now. But now I'm thinking, what else can I do? I completely agree with you. I think what's so beautiful about life and I've been having a lot of conversations with a lot of women on my show recently about there's such obviously, this is not new information, but we all know. There is a very specific age that society tells us women are desirable at and they are at their best. And disgustingly, a lot of it happens to.

to either be underage or right of age. And unfortunately, there's so much that comes with being that age as a young woman. Even the stories we've talked about when you're younger, it's like you're still figuring life out. You may not even see the sexist comment or you may feel it, but you can't do anything about it. With age comes perspective and growth and wisdom. And with that, the tools that you give yourself through your life experiences allows you to, I genuinely believe live a better life because you just have more access to who you genuinely are.

At such a young age, you're just figuring yourself out. And that is so fun in a certain capacity. But when you really hone in and as I've gotten older and I've entered my 30s and I know I've so much more to go, I feel so much better about this decade than I did the last one. And I believe when I speak to women on my show, that's all everyone's experience. You're like, girl, just wait. It just gets better. It just gets better.

It just gets better. I know. It's beautiful. Alex, do you see yourself at 40? What are you going to be doing? Honestly, I feel like I remember my mom saying, oh, my 40s were my best. She's like, if I think back my 40s, she was like, I was, and I'm like, that makes me so excited. I think, you know, welcoming, you know, a child to this world and starting a family for myself.

Like, I do think about how much more there is to these next chapters of life. And that's really exciting to me. Oh, I can't wait for you. I can't wait. And like you say, like, new experiences are. are so fun as humans and to embrace it, right? That's what I said, new experiences, new adventures. In the spirit of not slowing down, what is a goal you have for yourself that you want to accomplish in the next five to ten years? I would really like to meet somebody. You know, I used to

think I want to get married again. Now I'm not even thinking that. But I do think life is better when shared Alex. I do. Listen, I have a great life. It's not a, there's no, don't cry for me, Argentina. I'm not sitting at home like, oh my God, I'm so, I'm so. I'm not. That's not it. But I do think it would be nice to meet somebody that you think, thinks you're fun to hang out with. I would like younger, not someone I could give birth to, but younger. You know, like Tom Brady's age. I just saw Tom Brady. I just saw Tom Brady. I just stopped myself from going, you are so good lucking. He's also terrific. Specifically, Tom Brady, that's a good idea. You're like, what? But I get what you're saying. Tom will appreciate the sense of

humor. But, but, but somebody, not somebody I could have given birth to, but I don't mind younger. Because I'm thinking, guys, my age, they wear hats. They tend to be a little boring. You can't generalize. You can't generalize. But that has been my experience so far. Okay. I'm going to ask you a couple dating questions. Are you ready? I'm ready. Rapid fire. Ideal date night. I love a good restaurant. I love, people say don't go to movies, but I love a movie. I love a movie. I love a I like a restaurant movie. Then we could talk about the movie. Cute. I love that. Okay. What would people be surprised to know you're into?

Just for like a guy. What do you look for? I like big Alex in every way. You can take with that big hands, big chest, big muscles, big feet. Do with that what you will. Oh, Gail, you showed up and said... But I don't mind if he has a tummy, because I have a tummy. I don't mind, but I like... I like it. You like big.

I want somebody who... can pick me up and carry me across the room. And his back is going, oh, my back, I want that. I want that for you. Can Matt carry you? He can carry me. Okay, there you go. You need them to carry you. Okay, fair, fair, fair. What is a first date deal breaker? Smoking. I hate smoking. I just, the smell of it. It's not, I just don't like smoking. I feel the same. I, my mom always was like, oh, it's like kissing an ashtray. I know. Me and mom, yeah. I agree. What do you want a guy to notice about you? God, what do I want him to notice first? Well, what, okay, how about this? Go with, this is easier to start with. What is the first thing you notice about a guy?

Chest. Okay. So I don't even have to hesitate. I don't want him to notice your chest first. I don't care about that, no. No, I think, I would like him to think she's fun. Yeah, I would like him to think that she's fun. You are. You know, and great to be around. I would like that. I also like a guy with a sense of humor. Somebody that can make you laugh, panties come off.

You got a laugh over there. What do your friends... You know that's true, ma'am. What do your friends brag about when it comes to you? Well, they'll say fun, but they'll also say kind. I really do care about it. I really do. Right.

So, like, this motherfucker better not. trying to mess around with our girl. I really do. If you're coming in, come with the right intentions. No shrines. No chrines. Could you please not be a cocaine addict? That would also be. That's a bare minimum here. That's a deal breaker. That's a bare minimum, Gail. That's not a deal breaker. That's bare minimum. I don't want a little weed, although I've never smoked weed. I never have. But I hear, I hear some people do and it's enjoyable. That would not be a deal breaker. That would not be a deal breaker. You want a little gummy. I've never done it.

No. Oh my God. You on a little gummy? I'm a square. No. Oh my God. You and Oprah like filming yourselves on little gummies like sitting there just like what's, when is it going to hit us? That's a special. Well, she's tried other things.

She said, okay, okay, fair, fair. We got to get you a little gummy. If your friends could set you up with someone, not Tom Brady, who do you think they would set you up with? Tom Brady. Okay. No, no, no, no, no. Honestly fair. No, let's think, let's think.

You know what's so interesting to me, Alex, I wish I could say I've met somebody that I go, I'm going to go after him. Because I don't date married guys. Yeah, no. Or somebody that's involved with somebody. But I would just like to meet somebody that makes you laugh, that is fun. Like, you know who I think is, I think, I do think Tom Brady is a great guy. He's on my mind because I just saw him at a conference.

But I think he's very charming. I think he's very good looking. I think he's very smart. But, like, I think Hugh Jackman is fun. I think Hugh Jackman is one of the nicest people that I've ever met. He's just as a nice human being. But you're just looking for a nice guy, Gail. Yes, yes.

We have Jim Nance at CBS does CBS sports. Just a really nice fun guy. That's what you're looking for a nice fun guy. I am. Okay. Last game. You are friends with so many interesting people and you've crossed past with some of the biggest names over the years.

Yeah. I want to know who you would call in every situation. And Gail, you cannot answer Oprah every time. Okay. Okay. Who were you calling to guest host for you on CBS Morning's last minute? Oh, last minute. Oh, this is good.

Who you know would be fun. Alex Cooper. That's good. I'll be there. That's good. Honestly fair. Who would you trust to take care of your grandkids overnight? You want somebody who's very nurturing and kind.

Who's just really sweet. Hoda's nice. Yeah, she'd be good. Oh, yeah, that'd be nice. Yeah, she'd be good. Who was your one call in jail? I can't say Oprah. Yeah, you can say Oprah for that one.

Because that would be my one call. No, no, no, no, that's, that's your calling. We're all calling Oprah. And bring bail money. Yeah. Bring the bail, babe. Bring the bail. Because if I'm in jail, it's something really big.

Yeah, yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Bring your Pocky book. Yes. Who are you calling to join you for a Euro trip this summer? Chris Jenner. Wait, yeah, that picture of you guys. She's fun.

You have an iconic picture of you, Oprah, and Chris in Spain from last summer. And you're in coordinated out. Yes, yes, yes. Chris brought gifts because it was from the skims line. Number one, she's a doll. I'm nuts about her. And it just, it wasn't her boat. It wasn't Oprah's boat. But it is nice, I have to say, Alex, to have friends with boats. I mean, Gail, that's a really. I have to say that's a very nice thing. What are you looking forward to this upcoming summer? Do you have any good plans? I want to go see Celine Dion in Paris. Oh. I am working on it. Who are you going to go with? Me and Oprah. That's a good experience. I know that's so funny. Oh my God. Okay, that's fun. I know.

Let's see. Let's see. Let me make up somebody. Me and Tom Brady. You're like, shit. Tom Brady's going to go, Gail. He's going to say, shut the fuck up. Honestly, it's so good.

That trip sounds amazing. No, it's only because I just saw him at a conference. That's all. No, no, it's a nice guy. He's a top of mind. Yes, yes, yes. Last question. Okay.

When you look back at everything that you, you have accomplished personally and professionally. What do you think you are the most proud of? I know it's so cliche, but you're going to say this too when your favorite child comes. I'm so proud that my kids have turned out that knock on what they are happy and healthy and they are not bratty kids. You know, they were raised with a lot of privilege. There's no question about that. And so they could really be obnoxious human beings. And the best compliment I can ever get is that I met your son, I met your daughter, and they are just really lovely people. And I did this. This will be fun for you. When Kirby was three, favorite daughter Kirby was three,

and Santa was coming. And I said, you got to give Santa your list. And she had 23 items on it. And Santa got all 23. Now, she's three years old. She opens the last one. And she goes, is that it? Now, she wasn't asking like, I want more. She was just saying, am I done? And I realized in that moment, In that moment, Santa should never give everything that they ask for, ever. In that moment, because I thought, oh, the message that Santa is sending is not good. And I decided that that would never happen again. I made sure they got jobs when they were 14, 15 when you could work. Because we have different last names.

When they went away to school, they said, Mom, could you not come the first weekend? I want to establish my own friend group. Oprah's their godmother. People didn't even know that because they don't walk around talking about it. You know, they're just, their heads are really screwed on straight. That is so beautiful, Gail. So I'm very proud of that.

And you should be, because all I've heard is parenting is a beautiful experience and it is so hard. It is hard, but it doesn't. You know, when you, when you were there every step of the way, and there's a way to do it without being, there was an article about helicopter parents. And I said to, I called Kirby, said, do you think I'm a helicopter parent? He goes, she said, what did Will say? I said, well, I'm calling you first. And she goes, I hear choppers.

Listen, I wanted my kids. I wanted me to be the first thing they saw in the morning and the last thing they saw at night when it was possible to do so. And so I was extremely involved. When they got in Little League, I don't want to go to all those friggin games. Maybe you'll feel differently.

But they have too many friggin' little League games. You're bored out of your mind. And I would say to the other parents, are you guys enjoying this? They just went into extra innings. They go, oh, Gail, don't say that. I go, seriously, are you enjoying this? When you have the Christmas play or the holiday play, they don't have to sing six friggin' songs.

They can sing two. They don't need to sing six. All off key. You'll see. But I still loved all of those things. And don't let anybody make you feel guilty. I refuse to do that. I refuse.

That's good advice for me. I'm going to take that. No guilt. No, because you're working and you like working and you're there for the important things. I remember when, you know, it was my time to bring cupcakes and this woman said, oh, you bought those. Yes, I did. I want to say, bitch. Yes, I did.

Because she had her little carrier that she had made and the little sprinkles and you know the little Tupperware thing. And I go, yes, these are intimans. I just got them at stop and shop on the way here. And they're delicious. And they are delicious. Or another time when Kirby walked for the first time, somebody said to me, oh, you must feel terrible. didn't see her first steps. I go, she walked at noon, bitch. It's now 5.30. She's not running. She's not in a marathon. And he had videotaped it. So she was trying to make me feel bad.

And I just, I refuse to allow people to do that. Right. You know how good of your mother you are. Yes. I thought I was, listen, was I perfect? No, but I didn't get the nutrition right. Please do better than that. Because they were raised on SpaghettiOs and Tater Tots. I don't recommend that. You know what? My mom did the same and I think I turned out fine. Did she do that? Yeah, she was like, listen, I don't know how to cook, so just here you go. I know. Michelle Obama freed me of that one. She's, because I said, Michelle, God, I feel so bad because she has healthy eating. She goes, Gail, that's what everybody did then. Don't beat yourself up. I go tater tots, fish sticks. Oh, they were so good. Come on. They were so good. Bagel bites. Oh. But that's not healthy. So I know you'll do

better. I'm going to do better. I'm going to do better. I promise you. Although they didn't see it on camera. I can't thank you enough. You brought me such a lovely gift for the baby and you are just the sweetest. I'm really excited for you. I really, really am. She made me onesies that say Daddy Gang Jr. on it. My favorite is my mom is my mommy is unwell. My mommy is unwell. I'm like, you get the joke because this is called unwell. Yes. No, it's perfect and you're so sweet. And I am so happy you sat down with me today. I knew there would be so many laughs and so many. story times, but just everything you've built and also just who you are as a person. I think people talk about it all the time and I've been fortunate enough to meet you. But everyone always says,

like, she just radiates positivity and it's contagious. I feel that. And it's, and it is true. Like, you are that type of person that people gravitate towards you. You want to be near. And so the fact that you just let us soak up any type of wisdom, life experience, hard times, positive times. I can't thank you enough. Seriously. Thank you. Thank you for having. me. This was fun. And just remember, Gail is a unisex name when the baby comes, boy, girl, it works. Just throwing it out. I will. Please tell Matt. I will tell Matt and we will not take it off the table. Put it on the table. Can you imagine? Honestly, I can. Gail King, thank you so much for coming. Thank you, Alex Cooper. Thank you, Mom.