Call Her Daddy - How Does Patriarchy Affect Me?

Episode Date: June 25, 2023

Naomi Snider joins Call Her Daddy to break down the never-ending question: Why does patriarchy still exist? Naomi and Alex dive into what patriarchy actually means and give examples of how it affects our everyday lives and relationships. Naomi explains why women are constantly pitted against each other and how we're taught to blame each other instead of the messed-up system as a whole. Naomi and Alex talk about how beauty standards have changed over time and why we need to stop blaming individual women for playing the game. 

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Naomi Snyder, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank you. Naomi is a practicing psychoanalyst in New York City, and she lectures and publishes on the intersections of social injustice and psychological struggle. Prior to her work as a psychoanalyst, Naomi worked as a lawyer in the human rights field. I actually discovered your work, Naomi, by a recommendation from none other than the great Jane Fonda. Oh my goodness, Jane Fonda has heard of this book. I was already excited. I was like, how on earth did Alex Cooper hear about this book? And then to hear that it came to you through Jane Fonda, that blows my mind. Wow.

She's truly the day that I met her, I think my life was changed forever. She's incredible. And I know obviously that you and psychologist Carol Gilligan co-authored this book that we're going to talk about a lot today called Why Does Patriarchy Persist? And it was originally published five years ago. And in your opinion, I have to ask, is patriarchy still persisting? Great question. You know, I think before I can even answer the question, the first thing is to really even answer sort of what is patriarchy, right? To even know like if it's still with us today. And the reason I do that is because in my experience, a lot of people see patriarchy as a shorthand for men versus women. And I think the real like, there are many problems with that reductive kind of view of it. But one of the main ones to me is that it sort of completely obscures the cost that patriarchy has for both men and women. So like, in terms of thinking about whether patriarchy persists today, I'm really thinking about whether patriarchy persists in terms of like the rules of the game.

So not just sort of who are the winners and the losers, but the rules about who can succeed, what success looks like, and how one succeeds. So we define patriarchy in the book as this sort of order of living that puts some men above other men, all men above women, but that it's sort of based on this gender hierarchy and binary. So that like the rules of the game essentially are that in order to be a man and to succeed, you have to disavow all the parts of yourself that the patriarchy deems to be feminine, meaning your emotionality, your relationality. You have to be this kind of stoic, independent, heroic kind of figure. And the vision of success for you is to be able to take care of others financially and rely on no one else.

So the rules of the game for women, as they've always been and still are today, is that to be a good woman, you have to be selfless. You have to put other people's needs before your own. And it's both shameful and guilt-induc have to put other people's needs before your own. And it's both shameful and guilt-inducing to put your own needs first. However, to be a successful leader, to make it to the top, that kind of selflessness becomes a liability. So women are kind of faced with this really fucked up situation where it's like, oh, to be a good leader, I have to be autonomous. I have to be unemotional. I have to be autonomous, I have to be unemotional, I have to be all of these things. But to be those things, I'm then going to be seen

as bitchy or as moany. So it's like, to go back to your question, five years on, does patriarchy persist? And such a great question. Our biggest fear was that people would say what the hell are you talking about patriarchy I wasn't persistent anymore like you can vote you got like you know what am I talking about I've been a lawyer I've like been to university like who am I kidding and what I would say to that question of like is it still persisting I say it's persisting as it always has, but it's now out in the open and it is violent. And it is like the gloves have come off. And of course, like we can't talk about patriarchy persisting right now without talking about the jobs decision and the kind of pulling back of women's reproductive rights.

I mean, to me, that's sort of some of the standout. No, I appreciate you walking me through that because I know that obviously all of these, all of the questions I'm going to ask today are so complex and layered and there's years and years and hundreds of years of history that go underneath, obviously, what we're talking about. And I think that's such a great point you made of like, of course, we're allowed to vote, but shouldn't we have been able to in the first place? Like, shouldn't we be considered equal? So I think it's like, yes, we've had progress, but that doesn't mean that we've accomplished all of it. And so I think that when we have this conversation,

the sad truth is that some people may be listening to this. And the minute they heard the word patriarchy, they're like, oh, I'm out. I don't want to listen to this. Like, this is just too much for me or, you know, I don't want to hear about this. Could you maybe in like two sentences, and I know this is so fucking hard because it's like, how do we put it in two sentences? How would you explain the patriarchy to someone who is typically confused by the concept and like just needs like a two line, three line statement about like what it is. Oh, it's a great question though one way I have of answering it say I'm speaking to a woman I'd say you know that voice in your head when someone's really pissed you off and you're really hurt you're really angry and that voice in your head that says, who are you to say that to someone? Like,

what right do you have to tell them that you're upset? What gives you the right to hurt someone in that way by like telling them they've done something wrong? To me, that's the way that patriarchy is so alive for so many of us. We don't even see it out in the world. It sort of exists in our head in that way. I get what you're saying. I think, sadly, if every woman listening to this podcast can pause, it's that self-doubt that is so ingrained in us. You may not even see it as self-doubt. It's just a part almost of who we are in our decision-making at times, because it's been so ingrained in us of like, don't cause controversy, don't upset people,

be the peacemaker. And obviously it's hard to identify. That's why this conversation is so like heady for people because it's like, what the fuck is the patriarchy? And it's difficult, but it's an internal thing that we've been raised to have in us. So it didn't just one day appear. It's literally been since the minute that we were born. Yeah. And you know, it's helpful that you've just said that in such a clear, succinct way. You know, like here's another way that I think it's sort of those invisible things that we take for granted that just like that we see is just the way things are but actually that's patriarchy so for example I'm a I'm a new mom which has taken me into an encounter with patriarchy in a very sort of alive way and so for example I was having a conversation with some new mom friends and

we're talking about the way that when our husbands take the babies out they are met with such applause oh my god what a what a great father wow and then like instead what we're grappling with is the sort of like side eyes when when we're out in a restaurant with our baby there. They're like, oh, that mom? Like, it's like, I don't know, having a glass of wine? Well, it's sort of like, they're these sort of like invisible, like no one's saying anymore, women should stay at home and take care of the kids.

Like, that's not what's going on. They're these sort of like subtle kind of judgments we face. There's like essentially a hierarchy and a framework that's been designed for what equates to the masculine and the feminine capacities. And I know you wrote a lot about this in the book, which is like masculine. It's like independent, rational, emotional stoicism, and then feminine, it's like dependence and like emotional sensitivity and caregiving. And so there's a lot of negatives and weakness that are aligned with femininity as opposed to the masculine. And so therefore it elevates men over all women at all times. I would add one thing to that, that the feminine, it is idealized, but devalued. So caregiving is something that we say, oh, isn't it? She's so selfless. What a wonderful thing. But what do we pay caregivers? Right? That is like one of the things. It's like, yeah, we think it's great, but it's not valued in the way that men's work, quote unquote, is valued in society. Yeah, that's a great way to say it.

I know we lightly mentioned, you know, someone that you asked like, well, why would someone want to turn this off? And I think that obviously there are some women that may be listening to this who don't believe in the patriarchy, or at least they don't believe that it affects them, right? They say that they have a great relationship with their boyfriend, and they haven't had any issues within their job. And they just don't understand what everyone is complaining about and why everyone is constantly pushing the feminist movement and all that. What would you say to that person that feels like they haven't been affected?

Yeah. Again, I think my first response would be sort of like, I mean, wow. Like, tell me your secret, right? And, you know, I really mean that because for some women, you know, that may be more or less true, that in their lives, they really have managed to cultivate relationships, a work life in which they really feel like these kind of archaic norms don't affect them. And so I want to take that person at their word and not presume that I have a better sense of their reality than they do, right? What I've discovered is when you do ask questions, typically sort of what happens is you hear that the story is actually much more complicated and things that that person has just chalked up to, well, that's just life or, you know, this is a problem of mine, actually, we're like, it's sort of putting a socio cultural lens to something that they've seen as an

individual failing. So for example, like a woman who says, you know, I don't I don't have any issues in with the patriarchy. I've like, I used to be a lawyer, I have a lot of lawyer friends. And, you know, so it's like, I've like made it up through the ranks. And, you know, an issue that now I'm struggling with is my bosses are telling me if I want to make it to that next step, that have meant that to be self-assertive has come at a great cost to them. And that it's not just an individual problem of them, but they're up against something very real. This conversation, there are obviously moments where we can pinpoint a tangible example of patriarchy and we can comment about, you know, how many times has a woman sat getting ready to get dressed

and is like, well, I'll be taken more seriously if I wear this outfit for the interview than if I wear this skirt that I really like that I got the other day. And it's like, well, why are we feeling that we can't wear a nice skirt? Because we're going to be objectified by the men and we're still going to be put in a place where we're not being taken seriously. And so it's like, there's moments of, and I know that's like the

classic one of like the looks and what we wear, but that's just to like bring it down so people can understand like, yes, there are tangibles where you can see it. But I think what we're getting at and what you get at so brilliantly in the book is like patriarchy exists internally and it shapes how we think and feel and how we perceive and how we judge others and how we judge ourselves and our desires and every relationship that we interact with in the world. It's intertwined in all of those decision makings. And so to start to unravel it,

I understand why there are some women that are like, this doesn't affect me. It more just so means that they have found a way to live their life, that they're happy with the dynamics. And I'm not ever judging anyone with that. I think, unfortunately, there are moments in dynamics where the patriarchy is exacerbated and so many women are like, how am I not getting paid the same as men? That does bother me. And maybe it doesn't bother some women, but I do think for the collective, it's like, we should have enough self-worth and self-esteem that we do fight for that equality for all women, because then it's like the generations to come, our daughters, their daughters, it's, it's never going to end. And so it's kind of the same

thing of when there's a friend that was mean to one friend or a couple of friends and like, well, they weren't mean to me. It's like, I understand that, but there's also an accountability for the greater good that we need to take. Oh my goodness. No, everything you're saying makes so much sense. I have like so many thoughts in response to it. Like how do you live in a messed up social situation, even one that you're not necessarily one of the biggest victims of. You might be one of the like winners in that system, but you still see it. How do you live in a society that is so unfair and not be enraged every day? You have to learn not to see it. And I think that is what is so powerful about patriarchy. You have to learn not to see the inequity. I want to give a concrete example of this. You're in a relationship with someone who every time you bring up a problem, they say, what is wrong with you? You just nag and nag and nag and you can never let it be. And, you know,

we were just having a nice time and you brought this thing up and what's your problem? You have to learn to see things from their perspective and switch off your own frustrations in order to not be enraged. Yeah. You saying that also just brought up a thought for me of like, I think there's also this feeling that we are annoying by talking about this and we're complaining and we're not staying in our lane essentially. And we're trying to be these fighters for this good justice. And some people look at it like, just shut the fuck up. Everything's fine. Especially coming from like, oh, you're a white privileged woman. And I understand that. However, as a white privileged woman using my platform is very important because if I can feel

it, I can only imagine what the minorities feel and the underprivileged women feel. It's like it only is amplified times a hundred. And so I get frustrated where I can feel women and even myself in moments straying away from talking about it because it's the same thing when people started to just move away from the feminist movement because it was like, I feel like we're just like annoying and people don't take us seriously. And like, people don't actually want to keep pushing for change. And what then ends up happening is there is this divide between women of the women that are like, let's just keep it as it is. And then the women that are like, this is bullshit because you're right. When you're in those fights with a man and they're telling you

you're just being really overly sensitive. Like maybe you should take a minute and then come back or even in a meeting, the women are not as credible as the men and what the men are saying. And you can't be as assertive and you can't be. And if we're too assertive, we're a bitch. And then they're a boss if they do it. Like there's so many things that are so ingrained in our society that in order for a woman to take a step forward and to try to elicit any type of response in her immediate area, most of the time she's met with disgust and she's pushed away and she's overreactive. And so it's really hard to do it on your own and it's infuriating and you have to that is the key like hold on to that rage right because the rage is what i think propels you to want to do something about it and you're right right. No, it is. It's maddening. It's really, really maddening. From a psychological standpoint,

and I know this is basically what your entire book is about slash proving, why is the patriarchy still persisting today? As you say, that's really the question that drove Carol and my working together. Like, because for us, it was a conundrum. You have all of this research coming out that says basically healthy, secure relationships

are the key to like psychological and physical health. So why is it that patriarchy persists? And it doesn't just persist out there as something that we knock up against, but it persists in our most intimate relationships, right? Like what the hell is that about? And basically what we discovered was that in part patriarchy persists because it serves a psychological function. To be a patriarchal man, meaning a man that sort of disavows, disconnects from his vulnerability, his need for relationships, his emotional life, not only does that give him incredible access to material gain,

it offers him a psychological armor in the world. He no longer needs to risk the vulnerability that comes with being an emotional person. Basically, what we found was in a culture where the conditions for healthy relationship are so impossible, because there are rules of the game, patriarchal norms that kind of shame those relational capacities, then becoming the patriarchal man and disavowing your relationality, becoming the patriarchal woman who's all about the needs of others. There's, in addition to all the kind of social capital you gain, there's also this sort of like psychological armor that you're now wearing. And so it's kind of like that woman who then says, Oh, patriarchy might affect

you, not me. I'm totally content. I appreciate you explaining that because that's what I found so interesting in the book is like, we don't act outside of these gender norms out of fear of losing relationships, not being loved, not being accepted. Because when we stay in the gender norms, we are able to maintain this level of just equilibrium of like, everything's fine. We'll just, I'll just say right here, I won't act out. But by subverting, it's like by doing that and not being interested in pushing forward, you then what you're saying, you're detaching from your actual internal needs. And they're so suppressed and they're so below because above those are what has been instilled in us from the patriarchy of don't act out. Don't be loud. Don't be angry.

Don't do this. So it's like, we don't actually, we're not able to locate what do you actually want? What actually would make you happy? It's very complex. And I know there's a lot of layers to it, but I love the word detached. No, I just love that you're saying detached because I think that's what the, that is what, if anyone is wondering, if you're listening to this and you're getting so frustrated, like it gets, and complaining about it, if being frustrated about it just means that I don't even get what's good about it, then not only am I going to stop complaining about it, I'm going to stop even knowing that

there's anything to complain about. But here's the rough, and I think this is like the really key thing. Yes, it has a psychological benefit. But the point is, reality still exists, you're still getting burned. And that's the problem with these defense mechanisms. You're still getting burned, you just don't even know about it. It's like, yes, there's something protective about not being in touch with your vulnerability. There's something protective about not being in touch with all the pain and the frustration that comes with unfair treatment. But at the same time, if you're not in touch with any of those things, then you lose all

ability to do anything about them, to change them. What we see is all kids are suffering right now. And rather than making that sort of something about social media or something about what's going on with these, what's so messed up with this generation, I'd really want to ask what's going on with our society that we have a whole generation of kids across the gender spectrum that are suffering. And what's going on that the rates of girls suffering in this way are so much more than boys. Like everyone's suffering. But what is that?

If you don't believe patriarchy exists, is it just hormones? Are you going to tell me it's like that? It's such a good point. I love that you just said that because you're so right. It's like, you can't dispel the fact that there are so many young women and young girls that are struggling. I mean, all the way down to just like the way we look and how objectified we are. It's like, there's such a fixation on your worth is entangled into the way that you look as a woman. And again, like not trying to be like graphic here, but like, if you think about like when a woman has like, oh, like I don't have a six pack, like I have like,

you know, a little pooch belly and like, I'm eating good and like, leave me alone. And if a man has the same exact thing, he's still considered, you know, he is successful and he's got it going on. And the woman, she's completely devalued to like, oh, she's not fit. She's not thin. But it's like, we see all these men with beer bellies and yet they're still considered attractive because why? But then a woman, it's like, you're not even considered beautiful or worthy or no one's attracted to you because you don't fit the exact standard that a man has put as to what women need to look like. And as women, we have not objectified men in the way that they have objectified us.

We have not had the power to objectify them essentially because our words are way less impactful and powerful than what the man can do to us. Yeah. I want to add some things to what you're saying. One is what is it about thinness, right? Yeah. Why is it that, you know, thinness for women and it's, it's funny, I think we saw a shift and it's like coming back, right? This like a Zen pick, you know, the, the life, that, that thing, like, what is it about thinness? And I was with a friend the other day and I was like, you know, I think part of it is about that, like, disavowal of desire. Women in the patriarchy of women gaining social capital is to disavow desire. Desire with women, whether it's for food, whether it's for sex, is shameful. So we become more powerful

by becoming sexless, you know, objects of desire with no desire of our own. And so it's kind of like the anorexic, there is a huge, you know, the psychological benefit of the absolute control that comes with that. I desire nothing. I'm all about the desire of someone else, but like, wow, the suffering, that is the mutilation to the self that is beneath that. So it's like, I think in a way, thinness is the perfect encapsulation of this, right?

No one is gonna deny that a thin white woman, especially in this culture, does not get some huge social capital and yet to get that there's like there's there's both physical mutilation and like desire the very essence of what it is to be human to like to be sexual to eat to have desire but don't you think Naomi when I think about it what's crazy is like another, when you said like, how can you can't deny the patriarchy exists? And I don't know if this is specifically patriarchy, but if you think about it, it's like, why historically for women has

there constantly been a trend in what body type is desirable? And then we see people injecting, putting fake butts in and then getting ribs removed because the hourglass is in and now the straight board, no hips is in. When has ever there been a body standard

that has shifted every decade for men. You know, it's such a good point. It's like, I would say that one of the things that you're talking about is this gender binary and hierarchy again. Men have mind-body split, right? And so the mind is gendered masculine. And that is what's valued about them. Women, it's all like they're just bodies, just vessels, either objects of desire or containers of life, right? I mean, in a way, it's like, you're so like, yeah, that's

such a good point. In a way, it doesn't really matter what the standard is. It's the fact that throughout like it changes constantly. But the fact is, it's the thing that women have been judged by the whole like the whole time is right. What you've got to say is kind of beside the point is how you look. how do we look our body and not just even from our own self-worth. It's how do we have like human capital in the world? Like how are we, when we walk into a room, if you look a certain way, you're going to have advantages. I just feel so bad because when you think about it, how so many men, of course, I'm not negating the fact that there are so many men that have insecurities, but the amount of men that wake up in the morning and don't think about their body in the way that women

do, if we were able as women to get to a place where body and mind were separate, yes, that rate of suicide for young women would probably be changed. The mental health issues that women are having would probably at least be lightly alleviated. Because what we're saying is like, why have women been so pigeonholed into like, I remember getting made fun of by boys of like, you have no butt, you have no butt when I was in high school. And back then it was like, there were celebrities that were really getting rising to fame with like butt injections and everyone, all the guys were like, a girl with a butt is like the hottest thing. Now it's like, oh my gosh, like skinny model. It's like, why are we subject to change based off of what a man is allowing to be the, what is sexually attractive? And then we all

just have to go get our injections or go get this. And then if you don't, it's like, well, then you are just not attractive. And it's really awful how much it affects us. Men will never understand because they have never had a body norm that they've had to conform to. Yeah. I mean, it's a really good point. I think a couple of things. One is like, sure, like men have insecurities. They're human, right? The difference is where those insecurities are rooted and how they're able to manage them, right? So from a man who's insecure about his body, he can compensate in all sorts of ways, right? Whereas the difference for women is it's not just her inner insecurity. It's the fact that that's being fed back in the world that she lives in.

It's that your thinness affects your ability to get a job as a woman it's not like it's not just about like oh do I feel good in myself and so and also like schlubby guys are able to have great relationships right or you know it's like it doesn't really impact their their social capital and also their like their attractiveness. No. Whereas for women, it's like it's huge. And I think it's dehumanizing. I would like to know, though, as we're talking about this and you lightly brought this up, like what is your psychological understanding of why the patriarchy pits women against one another. How on earth can patriarchy persist without creating competition among women, without pitting some women against other women?

It's sort of like, it's integral to the whole thing. If women joined other women in supporting all women, then the patriarchy wouldn't stand a chance. There's more of us than them, right? One of the ways that patriarchy does this is it splits women into the good women and the bad women, right? The women that are worthy of respect, protection, and some sort of like value. It creates a culture of competition where we're all vying for a limited social capital. It's not just that women are subject to violence. It's that women that don't

play the game aren't even worthy of attention. I think a question I have that may piss some people off, but I was just thinking about this. There are people that the internet and the world right now really deem as like, these women have set such an unrealistic body expectation and image that a lot of young women don't feel like they can live up to, whether it was they got surgery on their butt or their hips or their face, whatever it is. And there's like a specific group of women. I think a lot of people are constantly saying like, you are fucking up young women. Yeah. My question is, is it their fault though?

So funny that you say this. I was just scrolling on my phone earlier and saw this like article that was about, cause this is the group, right? The Kardashians that are so much like kind of the poster child for what you're saying. And it was a criticism of Kylie Jenner, who I think it was like in season three, was like, I really regret the ways in which I've changed my body to conform to these beauty standards. And I don't want my daughter to do the same thing. And I think part of the problem is that when we don't see patriarchy, we just see it as individual women. And we say, it's the Kardashians fault. They're the ones who have created this problem. I think it's much more nuanced than that. I think you have to acknowledge what were the conditions, what's the social situation for Kylie Jenner to become

a billionaire in this society. She had to mutilate her body in certain ways. I think that if you blame her as an individual, then you perpetuate the patriarchy in a certain way by sort of making women the target of your anger rather than the system. At the same time, I think that as women, we have to own our complicity in the system. We can't just keep claiming we're victims of it. So Kylie Jenner can't just say oh I regret this she also has to say you know like I benefited from this hugely I have to take responsibility for the fact that this was a cost to me but it's one that I made and I benefited from and I actually did a lot of harm by doing that to myself and to other women. It's like, I think the problem with patriarchy is the

problem with this almost like doer, done to, victim, perpetrator narrative, where it's like, women are either victims or they're villains. And what if it's like, no, like Kylie Jenner, she's neither just a victim or a villain. She's like the rest of us in this fucked up situation of patriarchy, trying to survive it. And she made a choice. And that choice came with huge consequences, massive benefits to her. Also, huge costs that she's now grappling with. And she doesn't want her daughter to make that same decisions. I think as women, it's not just situating ourselves as victims, but it's also owning our choices in a way that's not about self-flagellating, about blaming ourselves and blaming other women. I completely agree because I think there's a resentment that women have had towards that family.

And yet you're like, well, hold on. I remember in an episode that Kylie was like, I remember my first kiss and this kid made fun of me because like I he was like, she has no lips. And it's like the reason that these women and they are not the only women, they are insecure about something that is not technically appealing to the male gaze at the time. And I think what is the issue is like, instead of, again, I agree, there has to be some accountability, especially as a public figure, but they didn't wake up one day. If there was, if the world was just all women and they were attracted to hetero relationships, they probably would have never gotten surgeries. If it was all women in the world, they would never have gotten surgeries. But because there's this male gaze and there's this equity that you gain in order to – if you look like something, there's – again, that goes back to the patriarchy of you want to look like something because you are going to be more valuable in the eyes of a man. And now what I do empathize with, although they have to

take accountability is their bodies, their daughters are not going to look anything like their bodies. They're not going to have the hourglass shape. They're not going to have the, you know what I mean? And so now I'm sure as mothers, they, they're going to have to realize, oh, wow, right. My daughter isn't going to have these lips or this butt or whatever it is. And so again, it really does stem back to, like, not that I'm even trying to talk about the Kardashians. There's so many women that are going through it of like, changing ourselves to appeal to men, because we are valued at such a higher rate when we look a certain way. But pitting women against women of like, fuck you, Kardashians. You made me feel insecure. No, they didn't. The patriarchy made you feel insecure because they played into it and they've

yes, capitalized on it, but you chose not to and that's okay. But like, we can't be mad at them because this is quite literally generationally, everyone's seeing it. Marilyn Monroe, like you just keep going back there's always going to be a woman that set a standard that other women envied or hated on because they didn't have it but we almost can find empathy within like they're essentially appealing in a different way to patriarchy and I just I don't know it's a really interesting conversation it's such an interesting conversation i'm thinking you could almost like take and you're right it's not fair to just make this about the kardashians but you could take

them as a sort of like a metaphor or as a kind of expression of everything we're talking about of like why patriarchy persists on the one hand they are victims of it right it's, on the one hand, they are victims of it, right? It's like, on the one hand, that story is so moving, right? Of like, what was this all based on? This is based on her being vilified and shamed based on her body. And so essentially, what we're talking about is she changed herself to conform to patriarchal standards. Like it is a visual manifestation that we can all see that like expresses what we all do on a psychological level every day to varying effects, right? We change ourselves to fit in. And in doing so, we do two things. We do three, I would say. We help ourselves in certain ways we we sort of like

we make a choice that says I'm not going to be one of those women who gets left out I'm not going to be the woman at the dance who doesn't get like called on I'm I'm not going to be forgotten I'm not going to be one of those like whatever we want to call them and so like she changed herself and there were huge benefits to that. At the same time in doing that, she became part of the patriarchal culture itself, right? She became a woman that other women looked up to as a sort of like expression of what they needed to be in order to survive and to make it and to be deemed as beautiful, as successful, et cetera, et cetera. At the same time, she made a choice that has huge costs to herself. Like, I'm just thinking like, what does it mean

to be beautiful in the eyes of everyone in the world? Because you completely changed the way you look, right? Like, what does that do to your self-esteem it basically says but who I really am is like ugly and disgusting like it and like you say there's that hugely sad thing of like not looking like your own children and like I think also she's saying like she doesn't want her children to have to tie their sense of worth to like, Jesus, she wants them to see themselves as beautiful, irrespective of what the standards are. Yeah. I think also the point is like, we, again, as women pitting against ourselves, we have to also take some accountability when people are like, they've, they're, they're, people are ruining it. Look inward. You don't need to copy

anyone. You don't need to follow anyone. You don't need to follow anyone. No one told you to get lip injections. No one told you to get ass implants. Like there are beautiful other people in Hollywood also that didn't do that. So there's also some accountability of like, there was no PSA that these people were asking anyone to follow what they were doing. Of course, they were making a lot of money from the way that they looked. But I think the overarching thing is like, we're constantly looking towards a woman to blame and to find some type of comfort and being like, oh yeah, they, they have fucked us up. No, the patriarchy has fucked us up because it's like, why is one of the biggest industries in the world

cosmetics? Why do women feel the need to wear makeup and men don't? Like, I know, obviously there's so many different things of like, we love to wear makeup and we like to, but actually like it really comes down to, we're not good enough. We need to put things on our face to look a certain way, but there's an accountability level. And there's also a really, really looming dark feeling of even if you take the accountability and you try to work on it, there's so many other people that aren't. So is it even worth it? And so I guess my last question for you, Naomi, is like, what are ways that we can collectively resist the patriarchy and patriarchal thinking? So I think there are two. One of them is to really like be aware of and challenge patriarchal gender roles and norms. So challenging the idea that

women should be perfect, that women should be selfless, that women's value comes in their looks. So it's like different from like vilifying individual women, but really calling attention to the standards themselves. I think though, also, this is the second one, I think it's about amplifying the voices of resistance. And I think this was your point earlier, right? Like, what is your role, especially as a white woman, a woman with privilege? It's like, we don't need some, like, savior complex. It's not about us speaking for other women,

but we can amplify them. I have a friend, and really, one thing that I do want to mention, because I think it is not getting enough attention in Western media, is the feminist uprising in Iran that is being led by young girls. And it is a cross-generational, cross-gender resistance movement, but it's young girls that started it. And I think it's so cool. I think it's totally like turning on its head our views of not just Iranian women and this Western-centric view of them as like

victims, but also young women and their power. But one thing a friend said to me today, and I was like, so I thought it was so moving. Those women didn't ask for anything from the West, except they said, amplify our voices. We don't want your money. We don't want your money we don't want your charity we just want to we just want a platform and like where it ends and I think it is a hopeful note is we talk about the the voice of resistance in our book that we're each born with this like human capacity for relationship to resist all of those things that get in the way of it. And so I think if there's anything that we can do, it's that when we hear that voice, even if our first response is like, God, that woman sounds so bitchy. That woman sounds so, it's like, take a pause. And instead,

even if you disagree with the, you don't have to agree with them. That's the point. It's like, the huge difference between patriarchy and democracy is like, we don't all have to agree with them. That's the point. It's like the huge difference between patriarchy and democracy is like we don't all need to agree with each other. But when you hear that outspoken woman, when you hear that vulnerable man, give them a platform, amplify it. You don't even need to agree with it. So that's, I think, one of the like huge ways. Amen.

I mean, we could have talked for hours. And I really appreciate you going through this with me, because I know, even we started like, it takes a minute to start talking about it in a way that's like ingestible. And it's a lot. And it's literally our everyday life. And I know in the book, you brilliantly basically refer to patriarchy as like this ghost, like it's an unseen thing that's just around us. And there's, you know, different versions of that in the world that we see. But for women right now, this is our fight. And this is the battle that we have to deal with. And I think it's really important, especially as the next generations come to just be talking about this because no one was able to as loudly and as effortful as we are now. Like we are now really able to have podcasts, to go on television shows and you're not getting

canceled. They're not shutting off the screen. Like we're able to talk, we're able to discuss this and that is so powerful. So let's do it. As you say that, it makes me think, and I don't, like, I'm not, you probably know your own story better, but what it's making me think is like your trajectory, right? And how you ended up like sort of taking this, like taking it into your own hands. You know what it's making me think is like women of our generation have this opportunity because you don't have the same gatekeepers, right? You took like, and so you can say what you want. You can bring the women on that you want to bring on. And like, yeah, I'm not like, you know, I'm sure you come up against it. And some people like that Alex Cooper, but the point is, you know, you're not like relying

on some sort of radio network to say like, yeah, I'm going to give her airtime. You can't say that. Right, right. Like I remember when I released my abortion episode after Roe v. Wade was overturned and I was like, I don't give a fuck if people are pissed about this. Like I'm going to use, this is my platform. Anyone else can post what they want, but I'm going to post about this. And so I think it's so, we're so fortunate that we are in a time that we're able to speak about this, but we're also, we cannot deny the fact that we're not there yet.

And it's gonna, we won't even see it. I know we won't see it in our lifetime, but what I wanna see is more progress in our lifetime so that my daughters, daughters, daughters are one day hopefully actually considered equal human beings. And again, that then spans from not just women, but minorities and non-binary and trans and just anyone in the LGBTQ community. It's just so important that we start to normalize a

conversation rather than hide from it and disengage from it because it's our life. It's literally what we're living and breathing every single day. So I cannot thank you enough for coming on. I really, really appreciate the conversation. I know the daddy gang is going to probably need to listen to this three times and like, okay, this is heavy. We need to adjust this. We need to take notes. But I really thank you. This was incredible. Oh, I'm really grateful. Thank you so much.