Call Her Daddy - How to Fix a Broken Heart (ft. Guy Winch)

Episode Date: April 3, 2022

This week, Father Cooper is joined by clinical psychologist Dr. Guy Winch. There is the classic saying…only time heals a broken heart. WRONG! Thankfully Guy is here to provide us with tangible advice on how to navigate heartbreak and get ourselves back out there. What are the rules when it comes to stalking an ex on social media? Can I ever go back to “our” favorite restaurant again? How do I know when I’m ready to date again? Do I really need “closure” in order to move on? If you are one of the lucky few who has not experienced heartbreak, you surely know someone who has. Guy provides guidelines on how to be a good friend to someone experiencing a breakup while also ensuring that you are setting boundaries for your own mental health. Daddy Gang, if you or someone you know has recently experienced heartbreak, this episode is a must listen.

what is up daddy gang it is your founding father alex cooper with call her daddy what's up daddy gang it is your founding father back at it again for another episode of call her daddy hello everyone how the fuck are you? It's a little bit of like a cloudy day outside in a good old LA today, but I kind of like when it's a little cloudy because it makes me feel all tingly inside. You know, being an East Coaster, sometimes you grow up and you hate the rain

and you hate the cold. But now that I live in sunny Los Angeles, my vagina tingles for a little bit of a cloudy, rainy day. It brings me back to Forks, Washington. Where did Twilight take place? Let's just have a great day today. Now, this is an episode that you really need.

You may not even know you need it, but you fucking need it. Have you ever been dumped, kicked to the motherfucking curb, gotten the big old ax? I have. And heartbreak fucking sucks. Should I text them? Should I stalk them on social media? Should I DM them? Should I text their mom? Happy birthday. Why do I feel like I'm legitimately going insane? It's like, what is the correct approach navigating a broken heart? And what does it mean to be a good friend to someone who is going through heartbreak? And we all know how that goes. Your friend shows up with ice cream and a shoulder for you to cry on. But as the weeks, months sometimes go by, your friend reaches their limit and they cannot listen to you tell the same story over and over and over. And it's causing a strain on your friendship.

But also, you can't stop thinking about your breakup. You can't stop crying about it. You're having a really hard time moving on. How do you set boundaries and limits for yourself? Thankfully, clinical psychologist Dr. Guy Winch is here to give us all of the answers, baby. Okay. In this episode, Guy gives tangible advice on how to handle heartbreak and how to be a good friend for those who are currently experiencing it. Whether you're the friend providing the shoulder and you kind of want to punch your friend in the face and be like, get over it, bitch. We have advice for you. Calm down. No need to

slap someone, you know? And then also, if you are having currently a really hard time getting over a heartbreak, this episode is for you, baby. We got something fan. I read your book in a day. It's so brilliant. I have so many young women listening to my podcast that are going to eat up your advice because it truly is so helpful to walking through the steps of how to get over a breakup and also understanding a breakup. So I think the best way to go about this is let's just role play. I'm going to pretend that I'm going through a breakup. I'm feeling so many emotions right now and I'm not doing a great job of processing. Guy, can you please explain to me what exactly gets broken when I feel heartbreak?

So heartbreak is a form of grief, essentially. It's a form of non-sanctioned grief in the sense of when you lose a loved one, then you get a lot of support from society, from the workplace, etc. When you're heartbroken and over the age of 16, less so. But it's a form of grief. In other words, we respond as we do to all kinds of other very profound losses. Heartbreak does one other thing, though. You're probably not just feeling all kinds of things.

You're probably acting in a way that's really out of sorts. You're probably acting in a way that, whether you're controlling the impulse or not, you have the impulse to text a person a hundred times hour to reach out to beg like you feel desperate. And that is what confuses a lot of people because it's one thing to feel like, oh, I'm heartbroken, but they're acting in ways like what is going on with me? Yeah, that's so interesting. When you described it in your book, kind of equating it to feeling almost as though how like maybe a drug addict feels in the way of like feeling like you're like you're missing something and now you want to like get that fix again almost from it because they're still there like you know they're out there in the world um and so it's hard to like

move on so you talk about the stage of grief right but we know the stages of grief happen in a way that makes sense right right? First, it's denial, then anger, then bargaining, depression, and then finally acceptance. But the stages of heartbreak, they don't really fall into that perfect, neat formula. Can you explain how heartbreak is different than grief? Look, with heartbreak, what happens is, yes, you've lost a person, but they are alive. And that makes it better in some ways and much worse in other ways, because the fact that they are makes you want to try and get them back. Now, you mentioned

addiction, what the brain study scans show, and this was so interesting to me and so alarming in some ways, is that what our brain looks like when we're heartbroken is very, very similar to what our brain looks like when we're heroin addicts in withdrawal. Now, why that's useful is because if you think of a heroin addict in withdrawal, you will not be surprised by their level of desperation, the lengths they will go to to try and get a fix. But that's exactly what we see in the first, you know, throes of heartbreak, people feeling absolutely desperate, like that person, that quote unquote drug is the only thing that can give them meaning and make them happy. And nothing else matters.

This singular focus. And that's what makes people think like something's wrong with me. I'm going crazy. But no, you're withdrawing. Your brain doesn't know the difference between you being broken up and you withdrawing from heroin. It's that bad for some people. What should someone do if they are feeling that way? So listen, this is why I explain it and mention the brain scans.

Because first of all, no, you're not going crazy. Your brain is, in a way, but you are not. And so it's literally a biochemical reaction that you have to understand. Because at least it will explain to you, like, no, once this gets better, I'm okay. I'm not literally losing it. This is just a temporary thing. But the other thing, I mean, since we're talking about the drug model, is it should also show you that, well, if that's my heroin, I need to go cold turkey.

I need to stay away from the heroin. So as much as the impulse is to try and connect and convince and, you know, bargain and reach out and text and stalk them on social media and all those things we attempted to do, that's going after the heroine. You need to try and avoid doing that. It's not good for you. You know, there's also a common feeling of humiliation after a breakup. Why is that a common feeling post a breakup? Because something very interesting happens to us when we get rejected. And that is that just when our self-esteem has sustained a big blow, what typically happens is

in our efforts to give meaning to it, to understand it, we will start to review in our heads all our deficiencies, our faults, our shortcomings. Maybe it was this. If only I were taller. If only I were richer. If only I were blonder. If only this was bigger and that was smaller and this and that. And in that review, we are pummeling our self-esteem when it's already down. And then you feel really humiliated because you start to conclude that the breakup happened because I wasn't enough or I was too much or I wasn't adequate in some way, as opposed to the truly real most common reasons by far, which are this person drifted emotionally. We weren't really compatible. They had commitment issues.

You know, we grown apart like the very undramatic unsexy kind of explanations the boring ones are usually the ones but we feel like it's the most public shaming because we've been you know branded as not good enough it is so hard when you're the one that gets rejected you immediately think what could i have done better when really if you're able to unbiasedly look at it maybe in as time goes on you'll realize I was doing everything I should have done and it just wasn't a good match and I'll add one thing think of the people you know who have been broken up with you did not think like oh well I understand why because they weren't good enough that's just not what we think when we hear about other people

so that's not what people are thinking about you either if they care about you don't think about yourself. Such a good point to try to put it in perspective of like, think of any friend you've had that's gone through a breakup. It's like, you're going to be okay. We've got this. Meanwhile, when it's you, it's hard to not be hard on yourself. But if you can think about another friend, you never were thinking, oh, it holds because you're not this or that.

No. Okay, so we're going through this breakup. Now, how long is it okay to isolate myself, sit on the couch, eat some ice cream, and wallow in the wake of heartbreak? I'm not a big fan of wallowing, period. When you're feeling something that intense and dramatic, you do have to sit with those feelings. You do have to try and understand what you're feeling and why. You do want to try and learn and gain insights from those feelings. When we're isolating, and people, by the way, they don't get out of bed for days.

They don't eat. They don't bathe. I mean, we really, it looks like clinical depression in a lot of situations. And if you saw somebody who was clinically depressed enough to not get out of bed for a few days, you would probably intervene and say, you need help. We know social support is important. So don't isolate. Maybe you don't want to be out there dating, obviously, by day one or two. But contact friends, get the support, try and come to terms and understand the why, even if you have to make up the reason, like because, well, they just drifted and didn't tell me. But the wallowing can really lead us to self-pity in a way that is not productive.

Because self-compassion is fine. Feeling compassionate for ourselves is fine. Feeling sorry for ourselves is very, very paralyzing. It just makes us indeed want to wallow and isolate. Not good for us. I mean, we needed to hear that guy. Okay. Because sometimes you're right. It's like, even if you have to force yourself to go get a drink with a friend or force yourself to go, you know, get a brunch with your girlfriends, like just getting out there, even if you don't

want to, can help your brain processing. It's so important. Sorry, it's so important what you just said. I just want to emphasize it because you said something really, really important. And I really want to emphasize it. You said you have to force yourself. Yes, you do. It's the same as when somebody has depression. You don't feel like going out and socializing. You absolutely have to force yourself. But when you do, you'll feel better for it, even though it's a huge effort to make yourself to do it. So, yes, thank you for saying that. You have to force yourself to do the thing that's best for you, even if your insides are saying, no, no, no, I don't want to. So how important is it to receive some type of closure in order to move on from heartbreak?

It's actually really important to get closure. But here's the caveat. You don't need to get reality closure. You don't need to really have an inquisition and put a spotlight on them and extract from them the real reasons why they broke up with you, etc. Because who would want to hear that? I mean, like, why would you want to sit there while your ex goes through their list of pet peeves, none of which was the cause anyway? The cause was they stopped loving you for whatever reason or they never quite got over the hump and started loving you for whatever reason. It's just that.

Why would you want to sit there and listen to every little thing that annoyed them when it's not relevant? It's important to kind of put a full stop on the quest for the reasons. It was this. They started drifting emotionally. They didn't speak up. If they had, we could have done something about it, but they didn't. Or they just were never fully committed, and I kind of felt it or knew it. Whatever the explanation is, put a full stop on it

because we can spend way too much time going through the search, the quest for answers and coming up with all kinds of conspiracy theories. The reason why that happens is because almost all breakups are blindsides. Well, how do you move on if it quite literally was such a blindside? One day they had your stuff packed up. You're like, wait, wait, what is going on? Like, how do you move on without any closure and having no idea why they ended it with you? What happens when people have been in a relationship, then the person who wants to break up,

usually unless there's some really huge fight or argument, betrayal, what have you, it's they just kind of fell out of love or they just don't want it anymore. You know, no one wakes up in the morning and says, you know, I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't be together anymore past the conflicts. They think about it, right? You know, no one wakes up in the morning and says, you know, I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't be together anymore past the conflicts. They think about it, right?

You know, they plan it. And often they plan it with our best interest in mind. Oh, she has this big presentation coming up. I'll wait until after that. The holidays are coming up. I don't want to leave her alone for the holidays. You know, let's go on that vacation and I'll do it after. So sometimes it's well-intentioned.

But what happens is you just went on this vacation. Everything seemed fine. And then they broke up-intentioned, but what happens is, you just went on this vacation, everything seemed fine, and then they broke up, or the holidays, they were so warm, we even had sex all this time, and then they broke up, or Tuesday was fine, Wednesday they broke up,

what happened? They've been planning it out for a while, and by the way, because they have, they are months ahead of you in the recovery process, which is why if you do stalk them on social media, you'll see them seeming out and happy. And how could they? Because they've had months to prepare. You haven't. So that's why it's a blind side, because they're

planning it often out of compassion. Do you think there's any ex-stalking on social media that's at all healthy? Just, I mean, truly, since I don't, tell me what could it be? Like, I mean, people sometimes say to me like, well, but I know their cousin was getting married and I just wanted to make sure that how the wedding went. And I'm like, no, no, you don't. You just wanted to see them and see if they were happy

and see if they brought someone and it wasn't you. So we come up with a lot of excuses for why this is a reasonable thing to do, but I've never really heard any that were valid. Guy, do not tell me not to stalk my ex anymore, but how does scrolling through an ex's social media feed reactivate my addiction to them? Social media is not a realistic prism of life. We curate it. So what are you going to see your ex put on there? Are you going to see that moment of maybe regret or a moment where he's or she are low and they're not feeling? No, that's not what you're going to see. You're only going to see them in their happy places,

looking great. So that's really just going to be painful because it's going to misrepresent. It makes you think they never cared about you at all because they seem to be so over you. And it activates your emotional pain. And I don't know anyone who doesn't go and do that and then feel much worse for it thereafter. Now, curiosity will drive you. And maybe some people have a hope that what if I do find a post of them feeling absolutely miserable and that gives me some comfort? I'm like, it's very unlikely. The comfort's not going to be worth much. Those are empty calories.

And meanwhile, you'll also be giving yourself all this upset because if you see them upset you'll be like well maybe they're regretting it maybe they'll come back maybe i'll hold on to hope and then back down the rabbit hole you go there's truly no good to come out of it but this is self-inflicted pain and as curious you are as tempting as it is you really have to resist and that's why i say unfollow people, delete them from your social media, let them know if you want to be friends later, which by the way, rarely works out. But let them know that you're doing it temporarily till you feel better. So they don't feel offended as if they have the right to, but they don't have that temptation,

because you will you will fall for it in ways that really will set you back. So guy, you do think that people should just immediately unfollow? I do. I really believe in the no contact rule, at least at the beginning. I mean, again, people say to me, but like, I think we can be friends. And I'm like, you can't now. Not while you're still heartbroken. Once you're over them and you're truly over them, like, you know, you're not idealizing them anymore. You're like really seeing them in the right light. Then make a decision about whether you want to be friends. And the vast majority of people have zero interest in doing that thereafter. Sometimes people do,

but really most not. Let's talk about the idealizing of an ex because I've done it myself. We all have done it. Can you explain why do people idealize their ex? Well, you know, our mind is an interesting thing. It evolved to just, I'll say this very generically, protect us from things that have been hurtful. So if we touch a hot stove, every time we get near a hot stove, our mind will remind us, oh, that's very, very painful. So when you experience something very painful, your mind thinks, you know what, I'm just going to remind you of how painful this is. I'm going to make this as hurtful as possible so that you remember not to do this again, except that we want to do this again. We want to fall in love again.

We want to be in relationships again. So that's not a good solution for us. But our mind evolved for other purposes. But that's what our mind is doing. So to do that, our mind is, you know, our memories, we tend to cherry pick the best moments. And we have these snapshots of them looking the best and when people go through pictures they will actually go through the pictures of the person looking their best and skip through the ones in which they look crappy because they're like no no no that's like this is what I lost and they're trying to validate why

they feel so bad so the size of the loss has to be monumental so the more perfect they are and the more ideal and the more perfect the relationship means that's why it hurts so much. But all of that is absolutely a lopsided judgment. You can actually be like, what would be different if you went back? And why do you miss that person? So do you have any tips of how to recalibrate the way we view our ex and avoid glamorizing what was actually a very toxic situation. I've worked with a lot of couples over the years that broke up and then didn't find other people

and they kept thinking about each other and like, you know, they were really great. And I know it didn't work out, but because what happens with that idealizing that you forget all the stuff that wasn't great. And then they go back and they try again. And guess what? The same thing happens. And I work with couples who've tried three or four times and the same thing happens because they didn't ask the question that you just pose, which is what will be different this time?

And if nothing will be different, the same outcome will occur. Unless you can think of a very compelling way that something will be different, then it's truly pointless. But what I say to people is, since your brain is going to introduce all the idealized version, all the perfect snapshot moments, that's fine. You can't prevent your mind from doing that. What you can do is add in a balance. And that balance is make a list of all the ways the person wasn't right for you, all the ways the relationship wasn't a great relationship, because they could never have relationship talk and figure things out, because they didn't argue well, because they weren't considerate in this way or that way. And column three, all the compromises you made, the friends you stopped seeing, the activities

you stopped doing because they weren't into them. And this is not to villainize the person, to be clear. This is to balance out the idealizing tendency we have. And then whenever you have those idealized thoughts and start thinking, oh, wow, you know, if they would only come back, I'm sure it'll be great. Look at your list. And I mean, look at your list and remind yourself like, no, there are a lot of not great moments. It's much easier to get over someone who's a real person than an idealized cartoon version of themselves. I wish I was going through a breakup right now. So I could be feeling so I could be getting the experts. Yeah, right now. Okay, so now let's pretend we would go to Chili's every Friday. Okay. And now I want to go to Chili's. But who got Chili's in the breakup?

Is he going to go to Chili's on Friday? Chili's in the breakup is he gonna go to Chili's on Friday and what about the friends that we would always pre-game with and go out with is he gonna get to hang out with them like how should I go about recalibrating people in places and should you remove some people in places from your life after the relationship you know I had a cousin who said to me once you know I can never go to Philly and I I said, why? She goes, I had a breakup in Philly. I feel rejected whenever I see the city limits. And I'm like, that was 20 years ago. Surely, surely you can have a different association to Philly now.

But anyway, we do associate these things with places and with people. Now, the breakup happens. Usually people get split in certain ways. There are plenty of breakups in which everyone goes with one person rather than the other, which is unfortunate. But when it comes to places, you know, like if you've been with someone, you know, I live in New York City. I know people who have been to 100 restaurants. Where are they going to go eat now? The thing is, you have to reclaim those places. Maybe it was your brunch spot with your ex. Maybe now it can be your Friday night spot with your friends. Maybe you need to just like have a different association.

The first time you go there, bring a couple of really good friends with you so you have support, try and distract yourself from it. But it's not realistic to avoid every place and every reminder of the person because the longer you've been together, there will be many, many of them. And why should you circumscribe your life in that way? That's like a double punishment. That's not right. So you need to get back on that horse it's it's also great advice with regard to surrounding yourself with friends like you don't need to expect that you're just going to be this

warrior ready to go to the brunch spot you went every single monday with your partner the first time you go it's gonna be hard but maybe the second time it gets a little easier. And then the third time, but bringing friends and not trying to be like, do it on your own. Because why even go through it alone? You have a support system. Alex, that was another really good point.

Sorry for interrupting, but I do want to emphasize it. You know, you make such good points and I want to emphasize them. What you said is maybe the first time isn't that great, but the second time will be easier and the third time will be easier. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That's the mindset.

You are healing. You're not going to heal with the snap of the fingers. Healing is not all at once. Physical therapy is not a single session. It's weeks and sometimes months of work to heal. You are healing. So it's not just about the first time. Assume the first time will be rough, but assume the second time will be easier.

That's so, so, so true and so important. Not just about the first time. Assume the first time will be rough, but assume the second time will be easier. That's so, so, so true and so important. I think also, I mean, I was so captivated by this point in your book, and I would love you to discuss a little bit of why is society so dismissive of heartbreak? Well, let's, I want to say worse first of all. Society is dismissive of emotional pain, period. In other words, if you break your leg and you go to the office, everyone will be like, oh my God, what happened? Skiing accident, you poor thing. Let me get you lunch. Let me get you this. Let me get you that. If you go to the office and you're in emotional

pain because you feel rejected or you had a breakup or something, first of all, you'll be embarrassed to mention it. And people will assume that, like, okay, dude, you know, you're not 18. Get over it. You know, like, get over it. Pull yourself out of it. Like, shake out of it. Snap out of it. That's the bias we have for physical versus emotional pain.

And yet we're afraid to mention it at work. And people don't have enough sympathy for it at work and people think like we should be able to shrug it off. And especially if it wasn't an official marriage and it's just a girlfriend or a boyfriend, then ah, come on. And that's what's so aggravating, that society doesn't think that pain is really valid

when our brain can't tell the difference. I mean, that's what people need to understand. Our brain doesn't know that. Our brain thinks that pain is highly, highly valid. There are even some studies, and I know this is a little ridiculous, but just as a proof of concept, where they had people go through rejection experiences,

and they gave half of them sugar pills, and they gave another half of them Tylenol without telling them that it was Tylenol. And the people who had Tylenol actually reported less emotional pain from the people who had Tylenol actually reported less emotional pain from the people who had sugar pills because that's how similar the circuitry in the brain is. It actually, now by the way, I am not suggesting people pack Tylenol when they're going on dates or something, it's a little pessimistic, but I'm just saying as a proof of concept

of how similar those mechanisms are. why do some people find it difficult to support a friend going through heartbreak it's a really interesting phenomena that i came across when i was doing you know research for the book and just in my clinical experience. And that is that your friends will be there for you 100%. But it is very difficult for a friend to sit with you when you're in pain because it's emotionally challenging. And so what happens for the friends is this unconscious kind of, I will be supportive and I will put myself through that emotional discomfort, but you have to try and get over it as much as possible. And if at the point where they feel like you should be starting to get over it yet, if you're not, their empathy and compassion

truly evaporates. It comes with an expiration date. And you don't know it except you're trying to meet them and talk about it. And suddenly, this time, they feel impatient. They seem annoyed. They seem a little bit irritated. And because they kind of feel like, you should be over this already. Why are we still having the same conversation? Part of it is valid if you've been having the same conversation, because again, that's not useful or productive. But the point is that we need to be thoughtful about who we're getting support from, because we can't tax one or two people too much and lean just on them if we have other people to lean on. And it doesn't also have to be that we only go to the people who are good at emotional validation. We might need a friend who's not great at listening at all, but they're good for going to movies and getting our mind off things.

That's a friend to lean on as well. And the other friend has so many real life problems that it always gives you perspective to your own. So you go to that one. All I'm saying is like, be thoughtful about how you're taxing your support system because the support is important. But if you're not moving through it, they will start to lose patience. So finding multiple friend resources or a parent or a sibling that you can kind of also

dump a little bit more onto. So it's not just one friend. And then they're like, I can't hang out with you anymore because it's a really daunting process to be on the other side of it. What does healthy, tough love from a friend look like? It's fair to say, look, I think you're feeling a little bit stuck because we're going over the same ground over and over and over again and there's nothing really new there. This is about acceptance of closure and deciding to move on. What that means specifically is you decide to look forward rather than back. And so the tough love version can be, I really want us,

I'm happy to talk about this for 15 minutes, but I want us to get back to the friendship we used to have, which was much broader than just this. You haven't asked about me for a long time. And there are things going on with me which I hesitate to talk about because you're in such pain all the time. But I think it's important that we remember how to have fun with one another also, that we have some neutral topics going on so that we can give space to this, but not all the space. Yeah, I love that. Because essentially what you're doing also is like empower them to feel like, hey, don't let that relationship define you. Like we can be so sad. We can have nights. We're going to cry together and we're going to eat and we're just going to talk all about it. But also remember, like that didn't define who you are and don't

let it. And so there's got to be some nights where it's not all about that because we got to take a step in the forward direction. And even if it's for one night, we don't talk about it for a week. That's a step in the right direction. Absolutely. So what prompts most people to finally move on after heartbreak? What does that process look like? So actually, it's often a decision. It's actually a moment for some people. For some people, it's a gradual process. For some, it's a moment where they decide, you know what, screw it, I'm done. I'm starting to look forward instead of back. I'm starting to look forward to figuring out where my next relationship will come from and who that might be and how I can prepare myself to that. Or I'm starting to look forward

to the rebuild, to filling all the voids that were left in my life by this relationship, psychological, emotional, literal. It's a moment where you decide, okay, I'm on the mend now. I'm not just going to be wallowing. I'm trying to mend and heal. And that, again, some people just gradually get there. Some people just kind of, okay, I'm done. I'm done with this already. I've given them too much space. And remember, the goal of recovery is to reduce the amount of space they have in your thoughts. From 24-7 thinking about them, less and less and less and less and less until they really become more of a, you know, like something you think about once in a while rather than obsess about all the time. That's your goal.

Guy, do you think that the concept of you can't get over someone until you find basically someone new that's attracting your attention, do you think that's real? No. I think for some people it's helpful. And I always recommend that as soon as you feel ready, yes, start dating. Are you going to be the most emotionally available person? No. But you can tell them. You'll take it slow.

You don't have to misrepresent. But the minute you start putting yourself out there, reminding yourself there's more life to be had, other relationships to be had, then it does help move forward. When will I know when I'm ready to date again? Okay, here's my answer. If you're going to wait until you know you've waited too long, here are my criteria for when you're ready to go on a date. Okay. If you can get through the date with A, without talking about your ex,

B, without sobbing into the martini, you're good to go. If you can get through it without crying. All right. You know what? It sounds so simple. But guy, I have bet I have cried into the martini. I mean, I didn't let my date see it, but I ended it short. And I went home and I sobbed.

And I remember when I look back at that breakup, I was so embarrassed. I'm like, why am I crying? But I was like, maybe I'm not ready. that's okay but like you're right maybe if you sob afterwards give yourself more time don't regress I know I think if you sobbed afterwards you were good it's when you're sobbing during that's the problem yes that's what I'm referring to and the same thing with sex by the way if you can get it. If you can get through it without crying or vomiting, maybe that's okay. Okay, wait. So what I did was okay.

The fact that I cried after the date, it's okay. You got through the date without crying. Yes, I did. And hopefully without mentioning your ex. And that means that, again, back to the process part, the date after that will be a little bit better. And maybe you want to give yourself a little breather between them. But I think that that was successful. That was good enough.

I mean, that's a great benchmark to have. Ladies, don't cry on the date and don't talk about him. And if you got through that, we're on the up and up. This is amazing. We're feeling great about ourselves now. Oh, wow. OK, that's that's very helpful. So let's say you have a client about to go on their first date following a major breakup. What would you say to them aside from that two-step of no crying in the martini and no bringing up the ex? What would you just say to them to give them some confidence going into this date when they have such a wound from that heartbreak? I say the same thing I say to parents who just had their first kid and are trying to go on a couple's date night. I say, you're not going to have a really good time at all, but it's important you go.

Because how are you not going to think of your ex the first time you're on a date or the first time you have sex? Of course you're going to. And how is that not going to make you sad? Of course it is. But it's like, you know, you need to get that out of the way. You need to start getting back into it. And again, if you can get through it without crying or being semi-present for most of the time, that's great. That's a triumph, if you ask me. So consider that a success.

Your only goal on that date is to do vetting about, like, let me see what I think of this person. Let me get to know them a little bit. Let me see what I think of this person. Let me get to know them a little bit. Let me see what I think of them. How, what they think of you should not be a relevant question right now. A, you're not that emotionally available and B, use it to kind of, what do I think about them? Not what do I think, what do they think about me? Hey, it's normal to have that comparison moment. It's like if you leave your job and you go to a new one, the first day you're comparing it to, do I like this as much as my last job? Like that's the normal human function

to just compare experiences in our life and look back and reflect. So you eloquently wrote in your book about these expectations. You know, a lot of people will set expectations before a date, but we don't recalibrate those expectations after a date. Well, it happens after a single date when you haven't had a lot of luck in the dating world or you kind of felt like, you know, you really, you know, you don't even want to put yourself out there because you're pessimistic and you've avoided it. And then you meet someone and it starts to work out and you start to feel like and how many people I know that sit on the first date and what's going through their minds is, oh, my God, they seem nice. What if this works out? Oh, and what if I don't have to date again and I can just finally be done with all of that? And what if this is my person and I find them and I can finally be happy?

And you're 10 minutes in. You don't know this person at all. At all. You don't know this person in a month in, let alone 10 minutes in. But you just set up these expectations. So now, unless they do something truly horrific during the date, you've already assigned them like potential for Mr. Life Partner or Mrs. Life Partner. And you're like, that's a lot of expectation to put on somebody after the first date, but that's why your heart gets broken after a first date. What you lost wasn't the first date. It was the life partner you built up in the expectation and the

thoughts that happened afterwards. And so, you know, you have to understand there's a lot, a lot of vetting that has to happen before you really, really know someone. On the first date, and for the first 10 dates even, I would say, your only criteria should be, did I had a good enough time to see them again? Period. Do I want a second date is the only question, not do I want marriage? And then do I want a third? Not do I want to move in? Just take it one step at a time for a while. Because when you rush, it's like you're going to try and paint the Mona Lisa by having five dots on a canvas, which you're connecting with amazing brushstrokes, but you have no idea if that actually corresponds to who the person is. So stop with the painting, just stay with your dots until there are enough of them to truly get a picture. It's so helpful when you, so many of us are like, oh my God, guy, you're calling us out.

Stop. I feel targeted. But it's so helpful to hear it because it's almost like you go into that date and you're projecting your wants onto them and you're seeing if they can fit into all these things you want. And it's like, hold on. What did you, what did you learn about him tonight? Some people could be like, oh, I don't know. You're like, oh, cause they were attractive and you kind of liked them. And so now you're planning your vacation with them this summer. What's their last name? You don't even know probably. So it is helpful to have that, the of okay it's exciting you're back in the dating game but let's keep it realistic and if anything write down what did you like about them because

if you go back the next day and you're writing like I like that they want to travel it's like okay because that's what you want to do this summer and you just want a buddy to travel with like let's stay a little bit more realistic than just projecting our wants and our needs onto someone. Oh my gosh, this is very helpful. I guess that my last question would be, if someone is listening to this right now, Guy, and they are in the thick of heartbreak, just a lasting statement to someone to help them push through. So first of all, I know that you're in real pain right now. And as we described here, it is real, real pain. And so it feels horrible and it feels hopeless and it feels like nothing in life matters but that person.

But recovering from heartbreak is that I'm quoting. Recovering from heartbreak is not a journey. It's a fight. You cannot be an autopilot. You have to be very mindful and intentional about what you do and how you think and who you talk to and how you're going about things because you are trying to heal. This is an active process, not a passive one. So get the tools, get on the program and shepherd yourself through this.

Don't just wait for yourself to float through it. It takes much longer and it's much more painful. Guy Winch, you're so wise and you have such a great perspective on such a topic that is not discussed enough with empathy and compassion and like a guidance towards how to actually solve it rather than just get over it. Like you're giving such tangibles that I appreciate everything you're doing. And it is such an honor to be able to have an hour of your time. I can't thank you enough. Alex, this was great. And I want to tell you something. You asked really good questions

and you really do get it. And it's, and I speak to a lot of people who don't really, and I'm, you get it. So, but, and you get it really, really in a sophisticated way. So I'm really grateful for that. And it's been such a pleasure. And I think you've had so many points, which is so good. I think you really have a great grasp on it. I'm glad you're in a relationship and not having the grasp based on, you know, bad experience at the moment. But I'm so heartened by how, you know, like, you really, really get it. And so I hope your listeners also get it. And I hope they heal quickly. All right, Daddy Gang, that is it for this week's mini episode. I hope you guys

enjoyed it. I hope you found some type of comfort in this and you learned something or you took something from this. Maybe share this with a friend who's going through heartbreak. It's a very light, I feel like, listen, but also gives such good advice. And also, a little update. This upcoming Wednesday, I'm having a friend of the show on. We're edging towards summer. It's spring, right? Is it spring? It's spring. It's spring. It's spring currently. We're edging towards summer. And I just feel like summer needs to be light, fun episodes, drinking excessively, just having fun. So I have a friend of the show coming on. I don't know if you can guess who it is, but we have a very fun episode coming for you on fun. So I have a friend of the show coming on. I don't know if you can guess who it is,

but we have a very fun episode coming for you on Wednesday. So make sure you know the motherfucking drill. I will see you fuckers on Wednesday. Goodbye. Bye.