Call Her Daddy - How to Spot a Narcissist in Dating

Episode Date: April 30, 2023

What are the signs of a narcissistic relationship? Is it possible to spot a narcissist on a first date? Clinical psychologist and narcissism expert Dr. Ramani joins Call Her Daddy to explain how to differentiate a healthy relationship from a narcissistic one. She talks through the differences between conflict in a healthy relationship versus conflict with a narcissist. Dr. Ramani gives advice on how to respond to gaslighting, how to preserve your own wellbeing and what types of people attract a narcissist. If you have been wondering if there’s a narcissist in your life this is the episode for you. Call Her Daddy Apparel is here. Shop the Spring '23 collection at  shop.callherdaddy.com

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Dr. Romani, welcome back to Call Her Daddy. Thanks, Alex. It's nice to see you again. So good to see you again. To remind everyone, you are a clinical psychologist and the go-to expert when it comes to narcissism. Today, I want to talk through how to differentiate a healthy relationship from a narcissistic relationship in dating. Before we dive in, what are some common misconceptions you hear regarding narcissism? So the common misconceptions are things like, this is someone who is in love with themselves. They're really vain.

This is just somebody who's just all about the selfies and the likes, that they're super confident. Those are the things that we hear. So it's really kind of, all we do is we focus on the superficial part of it or the kind of attention seeking part of it. And we miss all the rest of it because people will often think, why are you so bothered by someone who just wants a lot of attention or just likes to wear really nice shoes? And by making it that kind of superficial kind of mirror gazing person, we miss a lot.

Yeah, that's really helpful because I think sometimes like someone will look at a singular trait. That does not mean someone is narcissistic if they are just selfish. Like that's not just singularly the thing. Selfish is a common misconception. Like, okay, they're super selfish. They're narcissistic. Or a big one, Alex, is they're a cheater. Okay. So somebody cheats on someone. Everybody, he's a cheater. He's a narcissist. She's cheated. That's a narcissist. No, people cheat. And a lot of cheaters are narcissistic, but definitely not all. And so we want to be careful because what you might have, listen, I mean, you know, cheating, I often say is sort of a crime of opportunity at times, right? That people will

say, okay, you know, I had too much to drink. You have a very nice relationship with someone. They're actually a decent person. There's that drunk night in Vegas. They have an indiscretion. They even come clean about it and say, and they're genuinely contrite and that was unacceptable. And I understand if you leave me. If that person pivots and says, that person's a narcissist, I don't buy it. I think that they were indiscreet.

I think they were careless. Maybe they're too immature to be in a committed relationship. But I don't think that the sort of indictment of having this bigger issue of narcissism is there. It also applies with selfishness, right? There are people out there who, frankly, set up their lives in a way that works for them, and they make choices that they aren't bringing other people down. So they may say, I'm choosing to live alone.

I'm choosing not to be in a relationship. I'm choosing not to have children. Those are their choices. They're not hurting anyone with them, but people say, oh, so selfish, didn't have kids or didn't do this. And that makes them a narcissistic. I said, no, that might make them very focused on themselves.

But I'll have to be honest, if a person's being selfish, but they're actually accounting for other people saying, I work all the time, so I don't think it's a good idea for me to have children. I don't know that that's selfish. I think that it's really nuanced. And when people throw this word around, it really does an injustice to the people who are actually enduring these relationships. And it leads people to brand a relationship that might actually just have normal bumps in the road as being something far worse than it really is.

Yeah, I appreciate you explaining that because I agree. I have heard people like, oh, well, then he must be a narcissist. And it's like, because he cheated on you. Like, I think that's it's a little more complex than just someone cheating. And I think we're just quick to throw around the word sometimes, which is why I love what you do is like actually educating people on the difference between someone that maybe is just like a dick to you versus someone that's actually narcissistic. So let's get into the relationship aspect of like, what are the key differences between a narcissistic relationship and a healthy relationship? So let's start with a healthy relationship because I actually think a lot of people don't even know what one is. We'll start with that as a base. A healthy relationship is respectful,

compassionate, safe. You feel comfortable expressing your needs, your wants, and your aspirations without fear of being criticized, mocked, or humiliated. You feel as though you have a safe place to land. You feel that your sort of, if you will, reality, your experiences are and perceptions are respected and accounted for. So in other words, right now, if you said, hey, Dr. Romney, I'm actually really hungry. And if I said, no, Alex, there's no way you could be hungry, that wouldn't be respecting that space. It's a simple example. But if somebody even said, hey, Dr. Romney, I'm actually really hungry. And if I said, no, Alex, there's no way you could be hungry, that wouldn't be respecting that space. It's a simple example. But if somebody even said, I'm bored, and the other person said, no, there's no way you can be bored. You're a ridiculous person. That's not respecting another person's experience or perception. So it's sort of seeing,

being able to appreciate you're in a relationship with a separate human being, appreciate their point of view and perspective, recognize you can have one separate from them, know it will be respected, that you are in the relationship. There's a lot of back and forth that you're aware that in a relationship, there's tons of give and take, there's compromise, that there's sacrifice, but you do it knowing that there's a balance in the relationship. A healthy relationship is equitable. Again, it feels balanced. And above all else, if I had to choose one word that characterizes a healthy relationship, it would be safe. Okay? Now, let's contrast to a narcissistic relationship, which is invalidating, confusing, inconsistent, manipulative, and it can be dazzling, exciting, seductive,

intoxicating, and it can be gaslighting, and it can be abusive, and it can be dismissive, and mocking. The key to remember here, and if I were to say there's two words for a healthy relationship, I would say safe and consistent. Because the tricky part of a narcissistic relationship is there are good days. There can even be good weeks or good months. You happen to be on the same page. Life is going really well for the narcissistic person. They get the bonus. They get the promotion. They get the apartment they want. They get the new car they wanted. So when life is going the way the narcissistic person wants, they're great. And you'll feel like you're at something you feel. Not only do you feel seen and heard, it's exciting and it's fun and it's sexy and it's

great. And the tricky part then becomes that you start messing with your own head because you're like, well, last month was good and now it's not good. And they're telling me it's my fault and maybe it is my fault. And so you see how in a narcissistic relationship, you feel constantly off balance and consistently unsafe and you devalue yourself and you're being devalued. I like how you also said that, you know, there can be good days for a narcissist. And then I think to say like, you know, would someone be able to recognize signs on a first date? Like what might a first date with a narcissist look like? Okay. So this is where it gets tricky. You

know, everybody wants to talk about red flags, red flags, red, red. It's a dangerous conversation because there are often aren't any. And then people kick themselves saying, why didn't I see them? And I'm like, why is this all your responsibility to figure this out? First of all, but let's talk about what, let me give you two scenarios of a first date to show you how different it can be. First scenario, you've been, you've been texting and vibing and it's fun and it's sexy and you share pictures and like, my gosh, this person's so cool and they travel and I love their dog and I'm just so into this person. And then the time comes for where you're going to meet them. And they choose the restaurant and it's like a tough

place to get into and they get a great table and they're already there. They look great. They're really lovely and welcoming and generous and fun and sparkly. And they listen to you and you even say, oh gosh, dating has been hard or whatever. And they're so, you just feel empathized with and heard. Turns out like you kind of come from the same, like you, you know, have common friends from school or whatever. Like it feels magical. That is very often a first date with a narcissistic person who's charming and charismatic and well put together and looks good and sounds good. And you feel heard and seen. Another first date with a narcissist could be a lot of those things, but in there, there might be sort of, they're really distracted. Like you notice that they don't make a lot of eye contact. They're constantly scanning the room, kind of checking their phone a

lot. There's a fidgetiness to them. Maybe they're a little bit, I don't know, a little bit too familiar or flirty with a server that feels like, that doesn't feel like a datey behavior. The dinner though seems pretty good. Like you're like, okay, there's a couple of things, but that's a first date. It's awkward. You get outside and the valet is taking 25 minutes to bring the car around for him. And then he gets really snipey, like, oh my gosh, like you guys better not have messed up my car. Like that's a new such and such car. And you know, every time I come to this dump and you're like, ooh, that's not very nice. And then you kind of cock your head a little to the side. And

they say, Yeah, that's okay. I wasn't being that graceful. Like today, we had to close this huge deal at work. And, you know, I'm so sorry, I should I should have brought a better game. And then you think, Oh, they're aware they did that. So my point is that even if they're kind of, there's red flaggy things, the pivots they do kind of make sense. And 80% of the date was good. And when 80% of the date is good and it's a first date and you're attracted to this person, you're probably not going to take that 20% and say, danger, danger, I need to run away. That's really interesting. Yeah, it does. And I remember, I think it was a YouTube video you did. You said there may be an initial hyper

communication. Like, did you make it home safe? Good night, good morning. Or there's inconsistent communication where like a flurry of texts and then radio silence. Like what is that about the narcissist? Why do they do that? So I'm sure, Alex, because you cover dating better than anyone, you've talked about attachment styles on Call Her Daddy, right? So attachment styles matter here. And narcissistic people typically have anxious attachment styles. So there's just sort of this, they kind of get a little flustered at the goodbye, or they seem a little clingy at times. But the problem is a lot of people who date narcissistic people have anxious attachment styles too. But what we forget is a lot of narcissistic people alongside that anxious attachment have an avoidant attachment. And an avoidant attachment means when somebody starts

coming in too close, they pull away. So you're in this dance where, and this is a really toxic cycle that people get into in narcissistic relationships, is they start to learn that if I lean in too much, this charming person who also is kind of red flaggy and concerning, but also I really like them, pulls away. And you reach in and they pull away. So you start trying to play a game and you're like, okay, I'm going to play it cool. I'm going to pull back. And then they start chasing and then you pull back more, but you're not being authentic, right? What you're trying to do is pull the chase out of this narcissistic person who has this sort of attachment style that's not healthy. And if you yourself have an anxious attachment style

and you're sort of wanting to do that kind of gamesmanship because it feels good to be chased, narcissistic people love games in dating. They love it. Again, that's why you'll see the hot, cold, lots of texts and then radio silence. And it's almost like you're playing this kind of sick game of chess.

And I think the problem is we've sort of over-romanticized that sort of chasey dynamic, which is actually not good. What we're striving for is a secure attachment, right? Where you feel safe. You feel that goodbyes mean that they'll, you know, you'll come back together, that you feel comfortable in your own skin. When you come back with the person, you're really happy to see them. Narcissistic people don't have secure attachments. A lot of us may not have secure attachments. And so that's when this whole thing gets messy. And it is a game for narcissistic folks. And the game, like any game, gets boring after a while. And if you end up sliding into a relationship with the person, so you have your chase, you have your back and forth, it goes on for a while. And then you're sort of like, okay, we're committed, we're in a relationship, we're sort of out there

on Instagram, or we're moving in together, or whatever it may be. It's at around that time when it becomes ultra committed, probably within six months to two years after that, their interest starts to drop. Because narcissism as a personality style is, we call it novelty seeking. They always like new, new, new, new. It's excitement seeking and new things are exciting. So they do start getting bored with you, with the person they're in a relationship with. And then you may find yourself in that dance of, oh, I'm going to do what I did before and I'm going to pull back. But no, not so much. And so the inconsistency really puts people on their back foot and it confuses people and it turns it into a game that you may not be looking to play when you date. But I think

that's really how it is with a lot of narcissistic folks, because you're trying to figure out how do I win this charming person back over again? That is, thank you for explaining that because I do think that's something that, I mean, I even, I know when I was like in college or high school, like there is, it's the classic chase or like the we want what we can't have. And so it does tiptoe on the line of like, of course, when you're going on a date with someone, you want to not play all your cards right away. And you want to, you know, still come off a little mysterious. Like, I understand that. But there is a there's the differentiator between healthy like playing a little hard to get and like not being like i really like you when's our next date versus like very calculated manipulative like i'm not gonna text them and i'm gonna make them feel insecure and i'm gonna like it's just a little too thought out and calculated whereas naturally as humans we're like, maybe I should wait to text them just so that they don't like, there's a different level of manipulation going on,

obviously, with the narcissist that can clearly get masked, though, in the beginning stages of dating as just a casual, like, Oh, my gosh, he didn't text me now I like him more. So obviously, first dates or the first couple dates, like, if you're not dating a narcissist, they still can't be perfect. But like, can you explain on the contrary, what would a healthy first date look like? So a healthy first date could look a lot of those other, you know, the ways I could describe that narcissistic first date, that's what's so challenging. I think that a healthy first date, though, would feel collaborative, right? Not something that's fully happening to you. It certainly doesn't feel nice if somebody says, hey, I'd love to meet you. Great. You come to a date

that you agree on. And then it does feel good if a person says, okay, well, I have this wonderful restaurant I know. How about a 7.30 reservation on Saturday? And if somebody actually has a suggestion and if they say, is that okay with you? That's already a good start. Like they're not saying, okay, you got to meet me at eight o'clock at this place. And with no consideration of, is this too far for you? Does this kind of food work for you? So you want to look for that kind of collaborative sort of, does this work for you? You might've by then they might know you're vegetarian or something and say, there's lots of vegetarian stuff on the menu. So you see that there's an awareness of distance, of practicality, of all of that. Okay. So there's

that piece of it. Then it would be attentiveness, Alex. I think we can learn so much. Everyone talks this big mindfulness, mindfulness. What's mindfulness? It's being fully present with another human being when you're with them and not working the angles, right? So you're just really present with the person. You're listening to them. There's a back and forth. One person isn't monopolizing the conversation. There are gentle attempts, usually an awkward humor, as we often see on a first date. There is obviously, you know, you would also someone, because of this mindfulness, people will be somewhat careful on that first date. And when I mean by careful is,

they're going to tender opinions carefully. They won't come in with some sort of brazen, inflammatory, I don't know, heaven forbid, it could be anything from racist to political to something. And that gives you a pause. And then they come back with you like, what are you? One of those people who everything has to be oh so careful. So you want to look and see if there's contempt, if there's dismissiveness. How do they treat other people? A healthy first date would be someone who is warm, but not inappropriate with a server, who is appropriate with other people you might run into, the person who seats you, the person who may get your car, the Uber driver, whomever you're interacting with.

Look for those appropriate interactions. If, perchance, you're getting into a car with someone on a first date, something I actually never recommend, if you do, pay attention to how they drive. There is research actually showing that narcissistic people are more likely to be much, much more dangerous drivers. So if they drive in a way that's dangerous, that would be a problem. So if you're looking to see they drive nicely or safely. But I would say that in a healthy first date, they're actually going to recognize what would feel comfortable. Do you want to meet someplace closer to your house? Do you want me to get you a car? Do you want me to walk

you to your car? Whatever it may be, that there's an awareness of things like of safety, of comfort, that there's not a boundary violation, that if you've sort of made it seem like the evening's done, you've had a nice time, but you want to go home, you're not looking for a first date hookup, that there's a respect for that and not an insistence like, oh, come on, we've been texting for two months. This isn't even really our first date, not healthy. But a person saying, this is so nice to meet you, an appropriate maybe end of the night text that you get, but not 20. You're looking for appropriateness, mindfulness, good boundaries, watching how they treat other people, that they're not monopolizing the conversation, that they're not saying things that could be alienating or

hurtful or any of that. And that I mean, it's pretty simple stuff. Yeah, no, I love that you touched also on like the respect aspect of like, I understand that there's obviously certain situations where you go on a first date and maybe someone's so nervous that you can tell they can't stop talking and it's not out of like this grandiose behavior and they're so in love with themselves. You're like calm down, like you can tell to first date jitters. So I think also to everyone listening, Daddy Gang, it's like, when if you're on a date, and you realize, like, they didn't ask me one question about myself, all the way from like, you said, to the start of what we they picked the place. Now they're talking about their job. And the only questions they're asking me is actually to really

tie it back to themselves. That is not healthy, obviously. And that's also not a partnership that you want. It's called a partnership for a reason it takes two but I also think there's something to be mindful of which is there is I have been on it with my now fiance where our first date was magical and it was it started out so respectful and then it's just heated up and we realized we had so much in common and we we had a spark and there was a connection and so I don't want people to mistake a spark and a connection versus when a narcissist is using this like glitzy, glamorous lifestyle. Because the difference between a spark is you feel connected. You feel yourself. You're on fire because you're like, oh, this person has the same humor as me.

And we are getting along and we're talking that we like the same movies and the same shows and our taste in music versus a narcissist, you can be swept off your feet. But in the sense of, did it really even take you to do anything other than sit there and watch them put on a show that you were essentially just watching? Right. Absolutely. I mean, I agree. First of all, congratulations. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you you but i think that what gets tricky is even the spark piece of it right because i often say it's this do you feel like you're in your body do you feel like you're showing up as your authentic self you know versus do you actually feel like you're having to put on a show right or do you feel like you can just bring your like yeah well i'm in my third job in a year it It's been tough. I mean, nobody wants

to bring their B game to a date, but that you think like, I think over time I can be much more open with this person. One of the, I mean, I am a big fan of what I call slow dating. I think in this era of narcissism, it's just slow way down that when we take things slowly, you can learn a couple of things. And it's a really great sort of narcissistic deterrent. If you take things slow, a lot of narcissistic people lose interest because you say, Hey, I want to take more time before we have sex, before we take a trip, before we do something that feels a little too quick. They may then try to gaslight you and say, well, slow, like what the heck? Like, I don't know. You don't seem that committed to this honor that slow piece, because that's a common gaslight move

of like, I guess you're not that into me. If you don't want to do these things that feel like they're going too fast, but they'll pathologizing you like, Oh, you're not, you don't want commitment. And by being slow, you can say, if they're trying to push the accelerator like this, this may be a sign to, you know, honor my slow approach here. And then accelerator like this, this may be a sign to honor my slow approach here. And then this may not be my person. It's a hard thing to do because a lot of people feel dating is already so hard. I have this person who actually wants to spend more time with me. They want to do really cool stuff.

Am I sabotaging myself? And I think that the slowness is not going to be the same for everyone. Listen, there are people who might go on seven dates in two weeks, and there are people that might go on two dates in two weeks. Obviously, seven dates in two weeks, you're going to learn more about the person, you're going to learn more about yourself with this person. So it may not seem that out of left field that you would go on like a weekend trip after four or five weeks because you have spent a lot of time together. Again, so much of this is honoring yourself and where this gets tricky is in people with a variety of backstories, whether you've experienced complex trauma,

post trauma, familial abuse, narcissistic abuse in your family, prior abusive relationships, those things can kind of scramble your signals. So you don't even trust your ability to say, do I feel like I'm in my body? Like, do I feel safe? What is this? And this is where I always tell people, please be gentle with yourselves. This isn't about a gotcha, like, oh, you couldn't tell they were a narcissist by the third date. I often tell folks like it is not unusual for even people who know what narcissism is, they've got it figured out to take almost a year to figure out if this is a narcissistic person, because the first six to 12 weeks of

a relationship with anyone can either be magical, exciting or engaging because of this whole chasey thing. And then you're kind of getting into more of a rhythm that feels good. By the time you have enough data of unhealthy, disrespectful, manipulative, gaslighting, invalidating patterns to take, to get enough data for most people to feel like I got to go, especially if you at all, like the person can take one to two years. And I'm only saying that here, Alex, because I think you may have a lot of listeners who think, why does this take me so long? Because it takes a long time. Even for me as a therapist, if I have a narcissistic client, I'm going to be frank with you, it can sometimes

take me three, four months to fully... And I'm on fast forward because I'm not even dating this person. I'm just paying attention to their patterns, right? So if it's taking me a minute, it's going to take you a minute. And to have that self compassion, because a lot of people don't want to leave a relationship too fast and say, Did I let a good one go? Yeah, it's a lot better to say, Okay, I'm very clear that this is not for me. I love that you're explaining to like, in the beginning, let's say like, by your 10th date, be graceful with yourself. Because again, when you're in this beginning phase, that is also the honeymoon stage of the dating phase

of just like getting to know this person and understanding them. So everything kind of feels still fresh and exciting. And so with a narcissist, that's just amplified where it feels like it's very exciting, but really it's probably love bombing and this seduction phase that they are completely elevating to a different level than a normal person though. But a normal person, if they're not a narcissist, they're also trying to impress

you by the 10th date and they're trying to keep it spicy. And so I think it's important to let people know that it is very difficult, I think, especially in the beginning dating phase to recognize a narcissist, because naturally within normal dating, you are trying to court this person and you're trying to show your best self and you're trying to be impressive to this person and you want them to like you and you want to, you know, show your best side of yourself. So be easy on yourself. If by like, in a couple months, you're like, how did I not know? Well, usually the idealized phase is still with normal people. We're still wearing maybe a little makeup to bed because we're nervous.

We don't want to wake up next. You know what I mean? It's like you just be graceful with yourself. If someone was previously in a relationship with a narcissist, is it common to feel bored dating someone who is healthy and not toxic? So you bring up an interesting question, which is this idea of, it kind of goes in a couple of different directions, right? First of all, there's that whole idea of trauma bonding, right? That a relationship is a place that is supposed to be hot and cold, up and down. Love means chaos.

Love means inconsistency. Trauma-bonded cycles typically start in childhood and typically because somebody had a negating, invalidating, rejecting, potentially narcissistic parent, right? But that's not always the case. A person might have come from a very, very happy family and felt very seen and heard, but then they meet someone who's really charming and charismatic and exciting and all of that. And they really fall into like, whoa, this is actually sort of a fairy tale. This is everything I wanted. This is what I've been waiting for. And then they, and then, but the hot, cold up, down inconsistency sort of feels like,

oh, I guess this is what a romance is. Right? Now, people who are, who do have these trauma bonded cycles, especially when they're from childhood, it's a little less so when they start in adulthood for the first time, there is this sense that sort of a steady, steady, steady, not this, but this relationship feels uninteresting. And as a result, there's a sense of, I'm not feeling a spark. Maybe this isn't love. I kind of am bored and might even say, sense of I'm not feeling a spark. Maybe this isn't love. I kind of am bored and might even say, like, I'm not even very nice to this person because I'm bored. Right. They're not getting the kind of same sort of fight that they'd get in a narcissistic relationship.

And the person that the person in the stable relationship is kind and nice and compromising all the things we want. And the person will even say, I don't get this. This person's so lovely. So what you're describing is definitely something we do see in people who've been through these trauma bonded sorts of cycles. And then it becomes really important that a person does whatever work they do, whether it's traditional psychotherapy, trauma therapy, just sort of figuring out what this chaos means to them. What does it mean when you're not chasing someone? What does it mean when somebody is there and loves you? You may not even trust it or you may even devalue it. So there's a lot of deep diving that a person has to do. I hate to say it, but I think steady, not up and down relationships don't have a good

brand. I mean, we don't make movies about them, right? If we have a movie about two people meet and they're really respectful and nice to each other and they're kind, nothing dramatic happens. And then they fall in love and then they decide they're going to spend their lives together and they keep going steady. And who watches that movie? They maybe, but nobody else is going to watch that. They want drama. They want triangulation. They want infidelity. Not that anyone wants to be cheated on, but when we're entertained by relationship movies, we want excitement. And I think that sometimes that boundary between what we need in our real lives and what we're sort of drawn to, sure, watch an exciting movie about a

relationship, but that doesn't mean you should be in one. Listen, we watch movies about war. It doesn't mean we want to fight in one. So I think it's the same thing is that we have gotten so many twisted messages about relationships and that can really, really be pronounced for a person who's had these cycles their whole life. I don't even want to call these relationships boring. I think that's unfair to them. Stable, consistent, predictable, secure. Those are the words I would use. Yeah. And I agree with you. I think they've gotten a bad reputation, but I also think again, like everyone listening, there is a difference where I have in the past met such an incredible guy or many guys that were great. And I did find it boring, but because there wasn't a

spark there where I was, whether I wasn't sexually attracted to them or I didn't feel a spark when we kissed, like that is the differentiator between didn't argue but the point is is that there's a consistency of respect and there's a consistency of who we are when we show up to the relationship I don't wake up one day and look at my partner and be like who are you wait like you're acting completely like so there's stable in the sense that you don't have constantly a pit in your stomach and you don't constantly wonder who you're gonna get that day that you don't have constantly a pit in your stomach and you don't constantly wonder who you're going to get that day that you're dating. And it's that there is like something so romantic about being able to then explore all different parts of life with someone that you actually know is solid and respects you. And there is, there is a bond between you that is not based off of

the craziness of a fight. And then we get back together in a fight and we get back together, because actually, how do you feel when you're alone at night and you're sleeping? Like, you're just thinking about your next move and your next text and the next fight. So it's actually way more fun to have a stable relationship because then even when you do argue, it's healthy arguing. It's you want to get to the bottom of it and come back together where toxic arguing is like where are we going with this we're just getting off by it just to get off on it and we've become addicted to something that does nothing but deteriorate our self-worth and our self-esteem right and it's it's a toxic cycle so agree. It's like stable is the word,

but even stable relationships aren't stable at times. You go through shit, but it feels better and it doesn't feel so life or death. And it doesn't feel like you are no longer a full human being and it's chipping away at you every fight that you have. That's right. And it takes a minute to get there because like I said, we do that, that kind of volatility really, really does get associated and kind of stuck with this idea of love. So there's a whole process of separating out that this kind of stability is so, is so good. And listen, there are other things to consider, you know, many, many, I'm, you know, many of you, I'm a mom, but my kids are teens now. How, what kind of parent would this person be? Right? So this volatility may be sexy and bad, but do you want this coming at your child? If they spill a glass of milk,

really? I mean, you may, if you don't want kids, that may not be that conversation. It could be pets. Do you want this person screaming at your dog or your pet? No. And so it's really asking yourself that if you can sort of extend that out. But there is also too, Alex, the other struggle that many people go into dating not valuing themselves, not holding, and Matthew Hussey talks about standards, not holding those standards for themselves because they don't think they deserve them. They don't think they almost deserve a healthy, respectful relationship. And there's a sort of a risk of, well, maybe this is as good as it gets. This is how I grew up. There's this, maybe this is all it is. And if I don't go along with this, then maybe I will be alone forever.

And I got to tell you, having worked with people who have survived 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 year narcissistic relationships, most of them would say alone forever would have been so much better than having endured this. I couldn't agree more. maybe also to help because we're talking you know dating and it's a little hard to be like is this person narcissistic like maybe they had a bad day like i don't know let's talk about fighting what do fights look like in a narcissistic relationship? So funny you're asking me this question. This morning I was preparing a deck for a seminar during tomorrow. It was exactly on this question.

Oh, beautiful. Yeah, so great. So I'm set up for this. Okay. So in a healthy argument, and I want to tell you another interesting thing about the research on relationships is arguments actually mean a relationship is good because it means you have enough skin in the game

to get into it with someone. When a relationship is sort of dead on the vine, you're like, I actually don't care. You go, go, go sleep with someone else. Like I'm good. Like just not with, don't, don't be here. That's a relationship that's done. But to argue with something means that there's, again, there's skin in the game. There's a goal you can perceive. Now, all of that said, in a healthy argument, you use I statements. You never start a sentence with you because that's always going to be accusatory, right? So ideally, at least 90% of your sentence, I feel angry. I feel heard. I feel unseen. I feel frustrated. And using feel statements too, because that is sort of taking ownership for your experience in it. Never, ever, ever using disparaging,

verbally abusive language. You're a B word. You're an effing A, all of that. You don't want any of that kind of obscenity kind of thrown at someone because it is abusive. Obscenities during an argument actually do qualify as that. Now, some people say, listen, that's a language we bandy about in our relationship. Okay. But then it's going to get leveled up to obscenities that you don't ordinarily account for in a relationship. So there's that piece of it too. I would say, obviously, anything that even is in the neighborhood of threat. And what I mean by threat is not that they're going to pull out a weapon, though that could happen, but it's also things like, I'm going to go harm myself. I'm going to

storm out. I'm leaving here and I'm not coming back. I am going to make a mess of your life. I'm going to tell your family the truth about you. I'm going to share whatever secret you shared with them or the other people. There's a menace that's put out there, even if they don't act on it, right? They don't harm themselves or they don't share your secrets with others, that they keep bringing out that menace. Like, oh, I wonder what your boss would think about if they knew da, da, da. And so it's almost like they've always got this collateral intel on you that they are implying that they'd be willing to use. It's bringing back old grudges. I can't, 10 years ago, you did this.

15 years ago, you did that. Six months ago, you did that. When it's constantly cycling back to these old arguments, that's unhealthy. Deflection is unhealthy. Okay, so I see. We're going to talk about me working late. Let's talk about two years ago at your friend's engagement party when you didn't call me back. Well, no.

Actually, we're talking about the working late schedule and how that threw off our houseguest. So we could file that away, but that constantly trying to pull you off into these other directions to throw you off the course. Gaslighting is not healthy. Telling you that never happened. I never said that when they did. And then they treat you as though you're insane. There's something wrong with you. You're disturbed. You need help. All bad, bad, bad arguments. Now healthy arguing is the I. The I feel, I am. You communicate from the perspective of I. You let them speak without interrupting. You do not roll your eyes. You face them while you talk. You do not look away.

They do not talk at your back. You are paying attention to them eye contact as they're talking to you. So there is that form of, there is a place of connection. If you feel it's escalating to a point where you're saying, I'm having trouble actually hearing this and processing this, give yourself, say, I'm not, I don't want to, never storm out, never slam a door, but say, I need a minute. I'm just going to step outside for a second. I just need to, I need to catch myself. I don't want to say something hurtful.

So like find how, find those places where you can regulate. But it is about holding space, taking ownership, taking responsibility when you need to, not always, but with a narcissist, a healthy argument is literally impossible. If you start taking ownership, they're going to say, yeah, everything's your fault. So you've kind of painted yourself into a corner. If they start gaslighting you, I don't think there's a healthy direction you can go into except to disengage. So healthy arguments are actually quite great. Like it's really a sense of, and I'm not saying you're being nice to each other. You're doing things like still facing you, but I am having a really

hard time with what you're saying. How can you have screwed up this holiday? I just said you, and then, because we're not going to be perfect. And they'll say, how did I screw up this holiday? And say, we talked 17 times about how this Christmas we were going to blah, blah, blah. And we even made the reservations. I am so confused by this. This was really important to me. You're taking ownership, taking ownership. This was important. This wasn't okay.

But you're exasperated. It's showing on your face. I'm not saying you need to look like you're totally composed the whole time. You're going to look exasperated. You might sometimes make use statements. If you can get 80% of it right, you're doing well. But it is not possible to have healthy conflict with a narcissistic person. It's just not possible. And so people

end up blaming themselves saying, I did everything you said. I used the I statements. I took a second to breathe. I kept facing them and it didn't work. I'm like, oh, this is not going to work there. Right. No. And I also love how you said, like, of course, when you're in a healthy dynamic and a stable relationship, you're going to argue. But if you're also seeing this pattern, like someone listening, like, do you ever feel like you leave an argument? And you felt like you both took some ownership? Or is it always on you? Are you always the one that did something wrong? And you like you are the problem, like, then you're Are you always the one that did something wrong and you like you are the problem like then you're not in a partnership that that person is allowing you and themselves

to own what you every whenever there's an argument like so you can take some ownership usually in it, especially in a partnership. And even if you don't want to, like I just find like there's always something of trying to understand your partner try, there's compromise, there's having like an understanding and empathy for them if they fucked up or whatever it is. But with a narcissist, it feels like every single time the person in the narcissistic relationship is just going to feel like, I guess it is my fault, or I and you just and because they want to keep chipping away at you and then you just start to become like not your full self and then every argument you lose a little bit more of yourself if you keep believing what they are saying about you everything is my fault I maybe I am not good

maybe I am a bad partner maybe I don't give him enough attention and it's like whoa hold on that you just came to him because he cheated. How are you the one at fault? You know what I mean? You brought up gaslighting. And that obviously is a word that a lot of people are using these days. And if you are in an argument, let's say with a narcissist, and they are gaslighting you, because I can imagine so many of my listeners are women who may be in a relationship with a narcissist. And they're like, I don't know how to handle this. Like, what is the best way to respond? And you mentioned disengaging, but can you talk a little bit more about that and what that means and looks like? So you're never going to win with a gaslighting

person head on. You're not. Because it's a tactic for them, right? And they're not, it's not a, let me put it this, let me go backwards a minute. If someone's lying to you and all they're doing is lying to you, you may actually be able to get them on the same page as you. Okay. Cause not all lies are malevolent or, you know, or, or harmful. Some, but you might say to someone, hey, you said you were going to, I don't know, you were going to get this thing done by Saturday. I never said that. And then you pick up your phone and say, here's the text. That's why I didn't make another arrangement. And they'll say, oh my gosh, I totally forgot that text. That was irresponsible. So they denied it at first. That first thing they said, I never said I'd help you on Saturday. And then you go into the text and you show them the evidence and they don't lose it on you.

That's not gaslighting. That might literally be, we do this to people all the time. They're saying, didn't you get my email? I said, I never got your email. And you go into your inbox and like, I guess I did get your email. I'm so sorry. Right. But we immediately take ownership. We apologize and we'll say, I'm so sorry. I did not check. I should have checked first. When that happens, that's not gaslighting, right? That is sort of the normal mind slippages we have. And we'll say, I'm so sorry. I did not check. I should have checked first. When that happens, that's not gaslighting, right? That is sort of the normal mind slippages we have. And you immediately take ownership when it's brought up, or even if you don't have the evidence, an email or a text, and someone says, Hey, I sent you an email and say, you know, I don't remember getting it, but you said you did. So I'm sure it's in here somewhere. So you don't even go

look for it, but you say it's plot. You're telling me you did this. So it's possible. I'm not saying, no, you didn't, because I don't remember seeing it. So those are not gaslighting situations. And many times, not many, sometimes when you show a liar the evidence, they'll say, well, I didn't, you know, you caught me or listen, that was gross of me to lie about that. I was really anxious about, I thought you would, I thought you'd get really mad at me or I thought you'd break up with me or whatever. They'll give you the reason and they'll say that wasn't okay. I did lie and I shouldn't have.

And then you decide what you want to do with that, right? Gaslighting, whole different game. So when a person gaslights you and that never happened, I never said that, you know, and then you say, but you did and here it is. And then you show them the text and they say, wowie, wow. So now our relationship is the Supreme Court. Is that what it is? You want me to go dig up all the other evidence on you?

Great. I've done paranoid before. I'm not doing this again. Now you're dealing with this onslaught of you're in a crazy person because you showed them a text. Now you're defending. No, no, no. Listen, it's not that I'm

trying to be like, gotcha. I just, I want us to communicate. Now the whole thing's deteriorated because you were trying to get this thing worked out for Saturday. And now you're having an argument about how you're a paranoid, crazy person, right? Doesn't feel good. If at that point, you turn to the person and said, Hey, you know what? When you do this, you're gaslighting me. They won't say, well, golly gee, I never meant to do that. I don't want to harm. No, they're going to say, oh, is that what you're doing? You're watching videos.

Did you learn that on Instagram? Is that where you learned that? Oh, yeah, I'm so abusive. No one could date you. You are a ridiculous person. I feel like a babysitter, not a boyfriend. So now you're like, ah, that made things worse. So really, it's so simple. You'd never call out a gaslighter. So what do you do instead? Number one, you got to register. I'm dealing with a gaslighter. Now, one gaslight does not a narcissist make. One gaslight does not a gaslighter make.

People might do things, again, to save face, to get out of a situation. The really noxious part of gaslighting, though, isn't the denying the thing happened. It's the going after you. That part is hard to, if you experience that even two or three times, you've got a problem. And then you've got to decide what you want to do with that problem. Because I've rarely seen chronic gaslighting improve in a person. And when they get feedback, they shout at the other person. So there's really no getting anywhere with them. It's how, it's how that person maintains their sense of identity. I'm great. You're not. So, you know, you're going to do whatever you,

the narcissist is going to do whatever they need to do to protect that sense of greatness. So I do think that with gaslighting, there isn't much you can do. And what happens sadly is your sense of reality starts to erode. And the only thing that often sets the ship straight for people who are being gaslighted is A, if there's a witness, right? So somebody watches it. B, they come into therapy. The amount of times I've just sat and read people's old text messages, my client will say, yeah, no, you did say that you were gaslighted, you know, that they come in for confirmation or you have a friend who will say, you're being gaslighted. It can feel good to have that confirmation, but it still feels devastating that not only is it happening in your relationship, there really isn't a lot you can do. So by disengage, I do mean at those times, if it's very clear, you're being

gaslighted, very clear that that's a point where you're like, okay, for you, this conversation's largely done. Now, what your bigger problem now is to figure out a solution for Saturday, whatever that thing was like, we had to get new boxes or whatever. Don't waste your time. There will be waves and waves of grief of, oh my God, I'm in a relationship with a gaslighter. I might be in a relationship with a narcissist. What am I going to do? And I got to move the boxes on Saturday. But in that moment, getting into it is just going to make it worse. And then it's really about weighing out what does this mean? But my, my, I know a lot of people can't just snap out of relationships. Obviously, it's an early dating relationship.

Pay attention. I mean, if you can get out without too much damage, you don't have kids, you're not living together, you're not married, get out. But if you've been in it for a long time, a lot of people don't have that option. And then it's that grief of realizing, you know, how am I going to, I've been enduring this for years,

really, what's the path forward? To the degree it's early in the relationship, this really, really needs to be a wake-up call. It is not sustainable or tenable to have a meaningful, deep, healthy, close relationship with somebody who is a gaslighter. It's just simply not. You can have a relationship, but it's just not going to be deep. It's not going to be safe. And it's not going to be trustworthy. Even hearing you when you were giving an example of what it would sound like if someone was coming at you and gaslighting you, it's triggering to even hear. Because it's such a manipulation and distortion of your reality in the moment. And you're and you're so taken off guard, because again, they will weaponize their communication of you're talking about one thing. And again, then you're like, well, no, you texted me this. And then they spin it back on you

somehow. And then when you were somehow bringing up something that they did that hurt you. Now, all of a sudden, it's your fault. And so I just feel so bad for people that get into these dynamics, because every fight then again, chips away at your self esteem, because you're constantly not being able to hold your reality as a reality, because they're taking it away from you. And they're making you feel it almost can drive you insane and crazy, where you're like, wait, what, how is this now my fault? And then you can just keep going. And usually, I feel like if you get into that cycle, and you don't disengage, you can just start to really become depleted. But then again, it almost weirdly becomes, I don't want to say intoxicating. But the more that you linger and you allow it to continue to distort your reality and that becomes normal, it's so, so difficult to get out of that cycle because your self-worth is at an all-time low.

And then, as we know with narcissists, then they'll pick you back up to then drop you back down. And you don't have an ability to regulate your own ability to know your reality and and your worth. It's all kind of like predicated on what they're feeling that day. And it's, it's sick. I mean, can you just I know, we've talked about this before, but to anyone that's new listening here, like, what types of people attract a narcissist? And I hate saying attract because it's not their fault, but like just someone that may tend to happen to get into a relationship with one. Yeah. Your timing is so great. I have this healing program for people healing from narcissistic abuse and every so often, you know, and people want to check it out. They can dive,

but this month in our program, we've been talking about is literally on this issue of what are the backstories and vulnerabilities that make you vulnerable to these relationships. So here's the thing. When I, if I were to tell you all the things that make a person, if you will, vulnerable to a narcissistic person at the end of the day, it's everybody on the planet. Really it is because you've got, you've got one side of the story, which is our backstories, which could be anything from coming from a narcissistically abusive family, having a history of trauma, coming from a happy family, being a rescuer, being a forgiver, being very positive, being in a time of transition, you move to a new city, being in a rush, I have to have a baby. All of these things make you vulnerable to a

narcissistic relationship. Why? Because they get you stuck. The getting in, Alex, we're all vulnerable. As much as charismatic people scare the hell out of me, I think we're not ever going to get to the era where people are like, stay away from charming, charismatic people, right? It's just not going to happen. It's considered a really valuable quality. And so it's almost the pay attention. So what happens is all these backstories we have, these things about us, all of us are attracted to them. It's this stuff that gets us stuck in them. And the stuck is bigger problem than the attracted, if that makes sense, right? Attracted, attracted, right? I'm attracted to you. I've met you. I've spent an hour with you. Ew, I'm out. Okay, fine. But if you're making excuses and you're trying to fix things, you're trying to rescue them and you keep forgiving

them and your own wounds and your own trauma bonds are at play, that's the stuff that means you're not going to see the red flags or you're not going to see the warning signs or you're going to make excuses for them, right? So it's a stuckness thing. We also have to account for personality. There's interesting research out there by folks like Sandra Brown and stuff who talk about this idea of agreeableness. Now, an agreeable personality is a personality of somebody who's empathic, modest, humble,

kind, helpful, follows the rules. I've taken the test i'm a very agreeable person so what's the problem i loved it i i wish i could just create a whole world full of agreeable people never going to happen and in fact the opposite of agreeableness is antagonism which is narcissism the antagonistic people are narcissistic people love agreeable people because they can get away with so much. And the agreeable people are so sweet. They're like, wow, you're so smart. You're amazing. You're so cool.

Like that's what an agreeable person does, sweet people, right? And so that personality stat, it's not that the narcissistic person is like, let me find all the agreeable people in the room. But when they find someone who not only are they attracted to for whatever reason, but they also know they can shape them, agreeable people are vulnerable to that, to being shaped in that way. So those are the things that make us sort of vulnerable to these relationships. But the other thing that makes us vulnerable is we're told charm, charisma, confidence, success are all the most important things, right? You've had, you know, this Alex better than I do is how many times have people say, what's on your list? What's your checklist? What are you looking for? And I'm like,

everything on this checklist is not good. Like I need your checklist to be respect, compassion, kindness, mutuality, holding space. Um, or I. That's what I need your checklist to be. When the checklist is likes to hike, went to a certain university, has a certain job, makes a certain amount of money. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to be out of a job. And this is just going to keep going, right? I mean, I'm always imagining like agreeable people Tinder. Like what would that look like? Like kind of just helping people, not so hot and just nice.

And like, how can I be respectful of your boundary? Like I want to start agreeable people Tinder. I'm telling you now. And that no one would be hooking up because everyone would be so respectful. We're going to look online soon. And Dr. Ramani is going toney's like i launched a new dating app you have to number one have at some point in your life been in therapy

you have to be constantly working on yourself to enter honestly that is like actually wow alex you're the one can you imagine launch an empire it's all you so you do that make sure you mention me and send me a check every time i will i will you're gonna have equity but is that like can you imagine if you had a dating app where only people with agreeable score agreeableness scores over a certain level were together would actually be kind of great because those people if an agreeable person finds an agreeable person they're not gonna have a lot of money because agreeable person finds an agreeable person, they're not going to have a lot of money because agreeable people actually make less money, but my goodness, they're just going to be good to each other and kind and loving and sweet. And it's actually

harder. Agreeable men have a harder go of it because they do make less money. They're often minimized for emotionality or being a sucker because they're being nice to everyone, but they're just good. They're good men. They're good people. And there are a lot of good men and good people out there and they're agreeable. And so all of that, because of the charm and the charisma, we're all attracted to them. So I don't even know what they're attracted to us. So it goes to the next level. The thing that they're attracted to in us is it could be things like how we look or, you know, physical, our physical attractiveness, our status that we bring to the relationship. Did you go to a fancy university? Do you have a big job? Do you have a lot of money? Did your

family have a lot of money? Do you live in a cool part of town? Do you have contacts that are cool? Are you like, there's something that draws them to you that brings up things, like I said, status and all of that, and that they're getting some juice from it. It could be a person who's a lot older, who stakes out a much younger partner that they know they can dominate and control, and that would look good to the world. It's somebody who might be having a moment of fame, whatever it is, when a narcissistic person is sort of seeking someone out, it's usually on the basis of status. Yeah. I'm just curious, and you don't have to answer this, but did you have anyone, because obviously you're such an expert on this, did you have anyone very close to you in your life at some point that was a narcissist?

Girl. Let's go. Family, romantic relationships, workplace relationships, friendships, pick a category. You know what's fascinating about it too? People are like, is that why you got into it? I'll say, what's so bizarre is when I first got into it, it was like a research issue. And then I was had a private practice and I never was connecting my experience to theirs. So I actually find that disconnect. It wasn't like I am going, I was hurt by someone. I have to tell you, it wasn't until ways down the road and I was in a particularly narcissistic relationship that it finally dawned on me like, Ooh, this is, wait a minute, let's connect you back to this. And it was almost like the final puzzle piece. It was like Tetris and

the whole thing collapsed. And I'm like, now I get it. But it's, it's been in so many areas of my life and they still are like, someone will say, Oh, Dr. Romney, you must not have any narcissistic relationships in your, in your life. Hell, I don't. Lots. And I mean, some for cultural reasons, I can't remove these people from my life or familial reasons. Some, I've got to work with them. In some, I don't know. It's sort of like I am able to do some cherry picking and saying like, oh, I'm not going to share my, I'm not going to share my confidences with this person. I'm definitely not going to go on vacation with this person. But I think I could probably have a civil conversation with them for an hour. I don't particularly like them, but it's not like I

can't function. And I have to function with them because they're like a friend's partner, or they're like a friend of a friend, or you know, someone is someone is my kind of like in a workplace affiliation. So I have a lot of these people in my life still hurt me. And I but I know I can't get out. And when I'm hurt, as I will tell anyone who is in a narcissistically abusive relationship, you've got to be kind with yourself. I mean, it's something where you have to remind yourself, I recently had such an experience and I had to say, okay, Ramani, you just went through it. You know what this is. Do what you tell them to do. And it might be go to sleep early. It might

be read something I want to read. It might be just cry it out. It doesn't feel good. There's a lot of grief and that can be really profound if it's a family member or an old, old friend or a sibling, certainly if it's a long-term partner, but any of these relationships can be contaminated. I can't tell you, for example, Alex, how much it's a long-term friend. Like we've been friends since junior high and now it's clear this person's really narcissistic, but we've been friends since junior high. They feel like a keeper of my history. I don't know. I'm ready to just sort of let this person go, but my gosh, they're not nice to me. I appreciate you sharing that because, and maybe we can even do another episode at one point on like one having, it made me think of like, if your boss

is narcissistic, and it's a huge job that you have, and you obviously have to navigate having someone that you have to report to that's narcissistic. And then also, I think having narcissistic parents is something that we could do a whole series on. But my last question for today, I think, is like, aside from just romantic relationships, someone that's listening that is really relating to you right now, like, I have a lot of relationships in my life that I'm realizing are, yes, bordering narcissism. And I don't really know how to begin to even like navigating boundaries and how to, can't cut them fully out of my life. But like, how do I alleviate a little bit of the pain that I'm feeling from this person? Like, what advice do you have?

Yeah. So a couple of things. I mean, there are some, first of all, know what it is. It's not the gotcha of like, I need to know, is this person a narcissist? Actually, no, you don't. If you're feeling invalidated, manipulated, gaslighted, not seen, not heard, and really frankly, in your body, like I feel off balance after I spend time with this person. I don't feel good about myself. I feel uncomfortable. Not saying that they're narcissistic per se, but they may really be an unhealthy person for you. Pay attention to that. Just like if somebody put like a contaminated drink of something in front of you, like, I don't know that I trust that. I'm not going to drink it. It's the same thing with people.

So number one, to be aware that it's not about the, I need to know if this person is this thing. No, you don't. You already know that this doesn't feel good. Okay. But so now you have to, you have to have to, you have to have interactions and you have to have encounters with this person is first of all, if you are starting to suspect that this is who this person is and you do need to have an encounter with them, prepare for it. Like you almost like sit in the car on the elevator on the way up, whatever it is, you sit, you sit there and you think, okay, we're going in. I've got to stay focused. I cannot get into the whole gaslighting, all that. In fact, I often give people a technique. We might have even talked about this in our first conversation together. I say, don't go deep. If you get into it with them, don't defend yourself, don't explain yourself, don't engage with them, and don't personalize it. It's not about you. This is what they do to everyone. But then, you know, like, okay, if they start going in, I'm not getting into this with them. So you prepare, like, I know what I'm getting into.

I'm going to be mindful. I'm going to be on my game, but I'm not going to let myself get sucked into this. After these kinds of encounters, you don't feel good, right? So after the encounter is done, you may find yourself then feeling wrung out and depleted and your bandwidth is shot. So do something like say to yourself, okay, I can't just walk right back into the office. I shouldn't take a high stakes meeting right now. I might need to maybe take a drive or take a run or take a nap or talk to a friend or call my therapist, whatever it is you do at a time like I've been totally stretched too thin. In fact, I'd even say I've told clients of mine, if you can get the time with me, if you are going to have a really narcissistic thing happen, try to schedule me for within the

hours after that. It can help to process it. It's not always possible for everyone. I get that. But do something afterwards. You need to recognize that you just went through something and your nervous system needs to come down. That sort of bookended approach can really, really matter. Another thing is surround yourself with good people. Having social support is such a hedge against the harm that these relationships can do to us. When you have your sane people and you have your healthy people, and here's what's so interesting to me about narcissistic abuse. People say, well, maybe the person's just depressed just because they're in a bad relationship. What I see with folks who go through these relationships is they can actually be laughing and having a wonderful time when they're with healthy people, but it's only with that narcissistic person that they're like this. A depressed person would actually be having a hard time all around if there's a difference. And so I think that when you have good people, you feel seen, you feel heard,

you feel valued. There will be grief that it's not happening in this other relationship, but these other healthy spaces can buttress you, can help you feel stronger and healthy. So cultivating those, because it's very easy to become isolated and feel ashamed if you have narcissistic relationships, cultivating those other spaces can really, really be so important in terms of having a hedge against this. And again, that not personalizing it part is big. This is really them. It's not you. This is how they are with everybody. They do a number on everyone. It's their stuff. They have the option to work on it. If they choose not to,

you don't need to be their emotional support animal. You do not need to be their punching bag. That is so helpful because I love also how you just said, like taking a minute before you see that person that, you know, again, we don't have to be like they are narcissistic. And like, do they make you feel really bad about yourself? And you somehow feel like, oh my god, I spiral every time I'm with them. I'm just defending myself. And it's like, if that's the case, take a minute before you go into that room. And also, I love that you say don't go deep, don't get into the weeds, don't let them pull things out of you that when the minute you're like, wait, I didn't want to talk about this. Sometimes you can just be silent and just nod your head and let them just spiral. But don't use your energy because actually your energy fuels them even more. And then it just elevates. So you trying to keep it like my therapist always said, the calmer you are is always better, especially when you're dealing with someone that's heightened. You just stay steady and calm. But I'll say an aside to that,

though. I totally agree to stay calm. One of the struggles people have, though, is they'll say, I stay calm, and the narcissistic person gets really worked up, right? They don't like when you're calm and they're frothed up because now they're the ones who look like they're all over the map. That's not a good look. Remember, narcissistic people are about perfection. That's why in dating, it's so tricky because they want you to be perfect. They want the relationship to be perfect. Everything has to be perfect, perfect, perfect. So if they're screaming at you, that's not perfect. So they're trying to get you to get into it with them. So you look as unhinged as they do, right? When you don't do that and you're

staying calm, a lot of people will say, they start coming for me. They start saying terrible things and they'll say, a common one is like, oh, is that your little calm voice? Did you learn that from your therapist? And it's that kind of dismissive contempt that sometimes people feel like this is almost making it worse. They're saying meaner things to me. I always tell folks, if you can get over that kind of tidal wave of them getting meaner,

then at some point they're going to get bored. Yeah. Because you're not giving them the stuff, the juice, the supply, and then they're going to sort of be like, so they, but that could take months or even years to get to. And it's hard.

And I once had a friend say to me, she said, you know, Dr. Ramani, it's tough for me because you're telling me, sometimes I feel like this doesn't feel good to not actually stand up to this person. I'm a stand up to this person kind of gal. That's what I do. What do I do? I say, listen, if you're a stand up to this person kind of person and you feel going calm or quiet or disengaging is not your authentic self, go ahead and get in there, but recognize this is going to be a cage match.

This is going to be the fight of your life. If you're up for that, then I don't want anyone to feel like I have to cease being myself, which you kind of do if you want to survive in one of these relationships. Some people happen to be built for a fight. Even some agreeable people, it's pretty rare, but some people are built for a fight. They're scrappy and there's nothing wrong with that. So they feel like I'm not holding back. I said, yes, but it's going to be a storm. So I say things like, make sure there's no kids around. It's really overwhelming for children to see this. Make sure you're not like messing up someone's wedding or party. You know what I'm saying? But that, you know, not everyone can do this.

And so I think staying calm is great, but it can escalate. You have to be prepared. Totally. No, and I appreciate you explaining that because I feel like I would be the type of person that was like, I can't be calm and I want to just go at them. But again, just reminding yourself that you are very sane and you have empathy and you have emotions and you have like an understanding and self-awareness and so when you're fighting with someone that doesn't have that you eventually sure you're going for five minutes you're fighting you're fighting you're fighting eventually you are like we're not getting anywhere and i feel like the narcissist is like oh exactly let's keep it going let's keep not going anywhere i'll stay here for 20 fucking hours because it's like they're

they're basically like verbally masturbating on you. They're getting off to this. This is like, this is so exciting to them where then a sane person starts to be like, hold on, hold on. Like now we're not getting anywhere. Exactly. So go in and do your fight, but don't maybe have any expectations of clarity or closure other than for yourself that you stood up for yourself no no no no and in fact to your masturbation kind of people there's something i always tell people what they're doing is baiting you they're trying to bait you into a fight they're masturbators yes yes oh there we go there's a t-shirt there's a t-shirt i want some like i'm letting you do this, Alex.

You got this. I am not that person, but I will definitely show equity on that on YouTube. I love it. I love it. If I ever do it, I'll send you your check. Seriously, Dr. Romney, thank you so much. It's always such a pleasure talking with you.

And I think it's always great to just have these conversations because one episode, like I i said earlier is not enough this is a constant battle that people are in and sometimes people need to just be reminded that this is happening to a lot of people you're not alone there are ways to get out of it but just starting the conversation is helpful to recognize like you could be in a narcissistic relationship you deserve better than that but we're also not going to negate the fact that it is really fucking hard.

And we're here for you. And we will keep talking about it. So thank you so much for coming on. This was, again, just a pleasure. Bye.