Call Her Daddy - Insecure in Love: Exploring Attachment Styles

Episode Date: May 29, 2022

What is your attachment style and how does it affect how you view yourself and behave within a relationship? Before listening to the episode take the online quiz to determine your personal attachment style (free link below). Whether you realize you have a secure or insecure attachment style, this week Dr. Becker-Phelps, clinical psychologist and author, joins us to break down the role it plays within your life and provides tools to work towards a healthier way of relating to yourself and others. Dr. Becker-Phelps also discusses the concept of rejection sensitivity, how it relates to your attachment style and tangible ways to overcome it. Enjoy! Attachment style quiz: http://web-research-design.net/cgi-bin/crq/crq.pl

what is up daddy gang it is your founding father alex cooper with call her daddy oh my god i just there's something about a mini episode that just hits right hello daddy gang it is your founding father get it again for another mini episode of Call Her Daddy. As you all have hopefully become aware, whenever I read a book that fascinates me, I love to contact the author to have them on the show. I recently read the book Insecure in Love by clinical psychologist Dr. Leslie Becker Phelps. And I was obsessed. And before we dive into the episode, I kind of want to break down some of the main concepts from the book because I truly believe they can teach you so much about yourself and why you act the way you do in

relationships. I know I personally found it fascinating and very helpful. So have you ever heard of the term attachment style? No. Zero idea what I'm talking about. If that is the case, don't worry because so many people have never heard of it. Okay. So before listening to this episode, I think it's so beneficial to take a free online quiz and figure out your own individual attachment style. Literally just go on Google and type in attachment style quiz, and then you're going to get your attachment style. And then this whole episode will probably make way more sense to you. But that way, as Dr. Becker-Phelps is speaking, you're going to be able to resonate with pieces that relate to your personal attachment style. And I can post it on my

Instagram or just again, go online and Google attachment style quiz. So once you've done that, we can begin to have some fun. So Daddy Gang, time for a little lesson from your father. You're not in trouble, okay? But let me break this down. Every single person in the world has an attachment style. Your attachment style impacts you in two major ways. First, it impacts the way you relate to yourself. Do you see yourself as someone who is worthy, capable, and lovable? Or do you see yourself as someone who is flawed, inadequate, deficient, and unlovable?

So that's your relationship to yourself. Secondly, it impacts the way that you relate to significant others. So simply put, do you view significant others as emotionally available or do you view significant others as emotionally unavailable? Are you with me so far? Basically, we can relate to ourselves and others in either a healthy or unhealthy way. If you are leaning towards the healthier end of the spectrum, a psychologist would say that you, my sweetheart, have a secure attachment style. And if you're leaning towards the opposite end of the spectrum, a psychologist would say you have an insecure attachment style. We can break down insecure attachment into three different specific domains. Avoidant attachment style, anxious attachment style, or fearfully attached.

Now you're probably wondering, where the fuck does my attachment style come from? Is it just random? Like everyone's just born and given a different one? No, nope, not at all random. And as is usually the answer, your attachment style stems from where the fuck do you think, daddy gang, your childhood. It begins forming when we're infants and then into childhood and then even adulthood. Personally, it blew my mind when I learned that quite literally down to the way my mom reacted to me crying as a baby and how quickly she would pick me up and soothe me could then affect the way that I view myself and others as an adult. Okay, let's pause for a minute. So now what?

It's like, okay, this is a lot. Now what? I realize I have an insecure attachment style or I have some insecure tendencies you may be feeling. You may be now wondering, am I fucked? Just tell me, Alex. Rip the bandaid off. Just give it to me straight. No. Today, lucky for you, Dr. Becker Phelps is going to help break down the concrete ways that you can begin to improve within yourself and therefore your attachment style. So daddy gang, get ready.

Everyone loves to work on themselves on a Sunday. Don't have the scaries. This is a positive. This is going to help you whether you're single or whether you're in a relationship. If you're in a relationship, maybe listen with your partner. I think it's also fun to do the quiz with your partner. I had my boyfriend do it with me and it's a very fun exercise. And if you are scared to do it, that may be a red flag. So just lean in to the uncomfortable and enjoy this episode. Daddy gang, I give you Dr. Leslie Becker Phelps. Hi, Alex. Thank you for coming on.

I'm so excited. Thanks so much for having me today. If someone experienced a stable home environment growing up, yet they still have an insecure attachment style. How is that possible? Good question. It is absolutely possible because, again, first of all, the ranges, right? So nobody's home is perfect. You can grow up in a wonderful community with wonderful parents, but you might have had something traumatic happen.

And that can interfere. Also, let's say you have ADHD, right? That's the popular thing. We all hear about it. That can interfere with your ability to slow down enough. It interferes with their ability to connect. So there's a lot of ways that this could happen. Why do some people really struggle to get close to others? And how is that connected to the attachment style?

So anybody with an insecure attachment style, whether it's more dismissing or more preoccupied or fearful, they're all going to struggle with getting close. That's like almost the nature of what that means. If you relate to yourself as again, unlovable, unworthy, you're going to feel uncomfortable in you. You're going to have a lot of anxiety around that. If you think others are not emotionally available for you, you might be able to like say, well, I don't have to worry about it, right?

Be dismissing of it. Oh, I don't have to worry about that. I'm just goinging of it. Oh, I don't have to worry about that. I'm just going to rely on myself. And on a level you will feel strong, but on another level, in order to not have that bother you, because frankly we are wired to connect. So to not have it bother you, you have to be overriding the need to connect. So somewhere inside, you are dismissing your own experience. You're going to feel rejection, but you're going to quickly dismiss it or avoid it. Or maybe you just, in order to not feel it, you're blocking off a whole part of yourself.

So now you're not able to relate as deeply to yourself or as deeply to other people. How would someone with a dismissing attachment style view themselves in a relationship? So if you're struggling, you're having a hard time, you're not going to turn to your partner for help and support because you don't expect that they're going to be there for you. So you're just going to turn to yourself. So what happens sometimes if someone's with a more dismissing person, at first there's fireworks and you're having fun or whatever and then you start to realize that they're not really respecting what you have to say or you're not you're talking to them but the

person who's dismissing style is keeping it superficial not talking about their feelings not getting really in depth not being vulnerable the other thing that often happens is let's say the person who's dismissing is going through a hard time, right? Their partner, when you have a partner, you want to be supportive of them, right? Caring. The dismissing partner might start getting annoyed. Like, I don't need to hear your advice, or they're pushing them away, because it makes them vulnerable. If they needed their partner, that goes against how it is they functioned, right? They functioned by saying, oh, I can't trust others. Now this person's trying to be helpful. If I let my guard down and I take it in, that goes totally against

how I've come to view the world. Right? I can't even imagine being in a relationship with someone that's dismissing and someone that's preoccupied. It's a common pattern. How would a relationship like that work? Not well, but it's really common, really common dynamic. Cause what happens is all right, there's fireworks, right? Everybody's all excited. We all want to get close. Now the dismissing person's feeling smothered. So they take just a step back. Now the preoccupied person is like, Oh my God, they're going to leave me. They're going to leave me. They're rejecting me. And they take a step forward. Then the dismissing person goes, oh, I can't breathe.

They take a step back. So they do the stance, right? Right. Let's say overall, they find a way to make it work. And they actually marry. They do this in a lot of little ways. These are the couples that sometimes like 20 years into the marriage, finally, the woman's like, she's changed.

It's usually the woman who's the pursuer. Sorry, but it's just generally the way it works. woman's like, she's changed. It's usually the woman who's the pursuer. Sorry, but it's just generally the way it works. She's like, you know what? Raised the kids, did the thing. I'm starting to get a better sense of me. I don't need to keep chasing this down. I don't need it. Now she backs off. She backs way off. Now he's like, oh my God, but it's too late. He doesn't even know what hit him in the shorter term that will happen in smaller ways. So then she's like, I'm done pursuing it. And then they came back. Well, so now they must really care. So they came back and then they're pulled back into the same darn dynamic and they keep repeating it. Wow. That's so interesting. So, so a question, let me just throw this in.

We'll say it's like, well, why does he keep backing off? If he really wants a relationship, we are biologically wired to need connection. That's the thing. They can feel smothered or they're afraid of being close because they're going to be let down. So they back off, then they feel alone. Well, they don't want to exactly feel alone and they get pulled in. So that's part of the answer. When people say like, well, why that's part of what's happening. You may think your partner is being distant and they're acting a certain way when really they could just have a dismissing attachment style, which means you need to find a balance. There's got to be a middle ground, but I get it. If you don't know that about your partner, then you're going to be like, why do they

hate me when they really don't hate you? Or they may, they may, but in this case, they don't, they just need their space in certain moments. So that's, I guess, good to know. Well, you know, this, this is tricky stuff because it's not, it's just, there's a lot of nuance to it. So you might be more secure in one relationship than another. You might be, you know, more anxious if you're with a particular kind of person versus not, or over the course of your life, you might become more secure. And so you have some of the anxieties, but you feel more solid. You write about how obviously sex life can be impacted from specific attachment styles will often approach their sex lives with a drive to gain

reassurance and avoid rejection. Can you speak a little bit about each of the insecure attachment styles and how that relates to their sex life? Right. So if you are anxious, you're anxiously attached, you feel like you need to earn the caring, the love so an anxiously or preoccupied woman might try to look for ways to sexually please her partner or her her spouse or whoever and so she especially the more anxiety the more she might be doing that and it can at certain points in life look like promiscuity like oh she's just throwing out there, but it's because she's trying to get the love. Interesting with men, if they perceive the women that they're interested in are not aggressive or more of that traditional kind of role, they might hold off longer from sex. The anxiously attached guy might be extremely sensitive because again, he's trying to do what he thinks the other person

wants. The way it plays out in sex is you're not knowing what you want. It's all about what the other person wants sexually. And then you kind of become that thing where you try to do that thing. Really interesting. So it's almost like you are making your decisions based off of what you perceive the other person wants. Exactly. So unhealthy. So unhealthy. And the more insecure you are, the less insight you have, you may not even know you're doing it. And if you pay attention, and again, for your listeners, you think about your relationships. Were you different sexually across different partners? And what was going on? Did your interests really change? Or was your interest really aligning with each of your partners? If

that's the case, you may want to think about was it something I really wanted to do? Or was I just looking for a way to try to get love from that person? Really interesting. So if that is the preoccupied, what would an example for the dismissing attachment style be? So again, dismissing attachment style, they are dismissing of closeness with others. They're not really looking at the closeness. So they're likely to separate out the sex from the relationship or keep the sexuality kind of just more on that physical level and the behaviors or whatever, you know, like along that line, but it's not deepening the emotional connection for them so much. When we think of emotional closeness,

one thing that comes with emotional closeness is vulnerability. And honestly, the dismissing person isn't going to get vulnerable because they're going to be rejected. They're pretty sure the other person's not going to be there for them in some way. So they're not going to be vulnerable. The preoccupied person, if you remember, if they let people really see them, then they're going to be rejected because they're not lovable. The dismissing person's like, well, I'm just going to kind of enjoy this, but I'm not going to open up.

They're not thinking this. It's just people are playing out. No, that is interesting because I've had partners where there were some men that were so not in the dismissive category that they were really able to like, you can feel it when there's a real genuine, like emotional connection in intimacy rather than I had another partner that was fully dismissive and sex was just like, it was, even though I knew we were quote unquote in love physically for sex, it was, you couldn't make love or whatever. It was too hard for him to like, look at sex as a form of intimacy. It was just the act. And I was able to recognize that in both partners of how different than the intimacy level

was because I could never get past it with this one person because he, he could not look at sex as anything other than the physical act, which is hard. Then it was hard to progress emotionally in the relationship. Now, it could, and there's different ways that this can look. So it could look like the guy just cares about how, you know, that he's getting off and he doesn't care. But he could care about you, because sometimes it'll look like I'm trying to be a success. So people are dismissing are often successful in many ways in life. So if it's like, oh, I've earned something by getting hurt or orgasm, then he's going to be really focused on like succeeding in that way. But it's not necessarily emotionally connected. It's that vulnerability piece that you're looking for a more secure

relationship. Does that make sense? Yes. That, that, that makes a lot of sense why is it so common for people to date the same kinds of people over and over again tell us um you know i think that first of all if you don't have the insight you're just gonna keep doing what comes naturally for what you're interested in what attracts you're going to keep repeating it that makes sense um so i think that's a big part of it there's also something that we're needing and we're looking to a partner for so if you are insecure within yourself you're going to look for people who are going to, who are going to be reassuring towards you, right? They're going to do that. But what's, what's fascinating is if you always come back to understanding yourself, if you're insecure, right? And there's somebody who's

caring in those moments, that's great. But if they're overall, like they're really, they're like, they listen to you and they see you and they really give a sense of caring for you. That's not going to go over well. You're going to be like, oh my God, it's really what I want. Why don't I, why don't I like this? It really makes me uncomfortable. Well, it makes you uncomfortable because you have this underlying experience of yourself as unlovable. So if this person comes forward, they're securely attached, they actually love you. Now it's like that undermines your whole experience of who you are. That's really hard. So what happens is, yeah, maybe I don't love them so much, or I'm not going to allow myself to get close. You end up getting close with people who are both distant in some ways, but also can be caring. And then you're stuck in an unhappy relationship. And that's also helpful to hear you explain that because it's, it reminds me of just the concept of projection. Like say you are very insecure about a specific aspect of yourself and you're looking for a partner to fill that void or to make you feel better about that. Really? It's like

you're choosing that person out of bias of like, I want them to, you're projecting your issue and trying to find someone that perfectly will fix it. When really it's like, if you work on yourself, which we're going to get to, then you probably wouldn't pick that person. Cause you're not biasly looking at it like, Oh, I need them to fix this issue. Then you can unbiasedly look of like, who am I just attracted to as a whole? I'm secure in myself. And now let me go find a partner that works for me as opposed to trying to find someone that specifically pinpoints and fills your own insecurity. That's it's, and it's everyone.

It's hard though, to recognize like, why am I actually attracted to this person? Is it because it make me feel good about myself? Cause I feel like shit. Well, maybe work on yourself first. You don't need someone else to fix your problems. First, you got to fix yourself. Right. And you know, but I have had people say to me or ask me, you know, do I really have to just work on myself and I have to be secure before I can have a good relationship? And the answer is no. I mean, you some degree yes i mean if you really are that negative towards yourself then you're not going to accept anything but we all live in shades of gray so if you can see the bias and then you can be like you have a partner who really is caring and you've been rejecting the care and you're like oh wow i can see that i'm rejecting it maybe i can be open

to it and so then you can learn, you can practice taking in the caring. So sometimes it can help you to heal, to be in a particular relationship, but person can't do it to you. You have to be part of that process, right? How difficult is it to change our attachment styles towards a more secure attachment style? It varies. Like, right, isn't that the answer to everything? You know, it depends. It depends. If you are in a, if you're in a loving relationship, and you're insecure, that's going to help pull you towards being more secure. If you are in a domestic violence situation, chances are it's going to be very hard for you to get to be more secure because you're being pushed down. And we're talking about intimate relationships, but attachment styles

affect all aspects of our lives. Let's say that you are in a career and the career is really feeding your soul. You have a hobby that's really that you are in a career and the career is really feeding your soul. You have a hobby that's really feeding you and you're feeling better and better about yourself. You might then be able to transfer some of that into your relationship because now you're feeling, you know, you're feeling stronger. And so then you're more likely to be able to, you know, ride that wave and work on it within yourself. Can you explain compassionate self-awareness? Yes, absolutely. That is, that is my thing. Um, I, cause I, I just think that's what we need.

If you can develop compassionate self-awareness, then you are on the right course in life. So the way this works is we just enact so much of our experience without even thinking about it. So to be able to make a change, first we have to know we have to make a change and the problems within ourselves. So we have to be able to look within ourselves. That means becoming self-aware, really getting what's going on inside of you. So you can look at yourself and you can do it in different ways.

So I'm sure plenty of your listeners are very experienced in being self-critical. Oh, I know all about myself. I do this wrong. I do that wrong. And boy, am I an idiot? And I'm, you know, whatever. Sure, they're self-aware, but it's with such a bias. So with compassionate self-awareness, it's being able to view yourself with compassion.

So the more you understand yourself and where things come from, the more empathy you can have with your experience. And when you can empathize, hopefully you empathize with a sense of caring and now you're your greatest supporter and comforter and you help yourself move forward. So the empathy piece is huge. And in order to empathize with anybody, you think of it, Um, so the empathy piece is huge. Right. And in order to empathize with anybody, you think of it, people don't tend to think of

it with empathizing with themselves. But if you think of empathizing with someone else, you have to know what they're going through in order to empathize with them. Right. Same is true for ourselves. So, um, the more you can do it, this is where the compassionate self-awareness is centered. So you want to develop your self-awareness and at the same time, you're going to be developing, or along with it, you're developing your self-compassion. I feel like in the world,

we try to empathize with others. And the one relationship we don't really empathize with is ourself. I'll look at someone and be like, wow, like I can tell they're trying really hard or, oh, they're, and, and, but maybe for yourself, you never give yourself that benefit of the doubt, or you never look at yourself and give yourself a pass on like, I was trying, like, it's really hard sometimes. Cause I feel like we're not really taught it that often. It's always about do well unto others and empathize as you should, but also like, Hey, the most important relationship in your life is with yourself. Look inward. Are you being compassionate towards yourself? And I love how you talk about compassionate self-awareness because I actually

did a segment on self-awareness recently of just, you know, you can kind of tell when someone's unselfaware, maybe they're hijacking conversations and they're not a bad person. They're just not emotionally in touch with they're probably maybe hijacking the conversation. Maybe they're not a bad person. They're just not emotionally in touch with, they're probably maybe hijacking the conversation. Maybe they're anxious. And when they're anxious, they word vomit. And if you're not aware of like, okay, I know in social situations, I do this. So let me be cognizant of that emotion. So I can be aware of how I'm acting for self-awareness though. Cause it's such a, I always try to get a tangible way to explain it to people if they're like, okay, I want to work on it. I I'm feeling called out right now,

Leslie, I need help. Um, what are some concrete ways to practice compassionate self-awareness every day? Um, so the trouble with self-awareness is a vague term, right? Like self-aware, what does that mean? I use an acronym called STEAM. And it's very helpful because a lot of people really don't even know what to be self-aware about. So STEAM, the S is for sensations. What are you sensing in your body? A lot of times people don't even know. You know, are you having a churning in your stomach,

a tightness in your chest? What are your sensations? What are your thoughts? Not only what are you thinking, buturning in your stomach, a tightness in your chest? What are your sensations? What are your thoughts? Not only what are you thinking, but what do you think about your thinking? So just because you have a thought doesn't mean you have to believe it. You know, I'm thinking of such an idiot. Well, do you really believe it? Well, no, I'm not really an idiot.

Okay. So what are your thoughts? What are your emotions? S-T-E, emotions. This is trickier than you'd think alex because so many people don't know what their emotions are i'll say what do you you know what are your emotions what are you feeling well i'm feeling like i don't know what i'm talking about no that's a thought so it can really help honestly to get a list of emotions um and look at the list of emotions and

to know that it's not just what you could feel, multiple emotions. They can be conflicting emotions. There's so much. You get more nuanced the more you can identify your emotions. So practice it. What am I feeling now? Have a list. Look through it.

Sensations, thoughts, emotions, actions. What are my actions? What am I doing? You can see what you're doing. Not just what other people are doing. What are my actions? What am I doing? You can see what you're doing, not just what other people are doing. You know, what have I done? So if, if my partner's yelling at me, was there something I did that triggered it, you know? And then the mentalizing is, it's a jargony term, but it basically means really getting where someone's coming from. If you can understand somebody's thoughts, feelings, emotions, desires, fears, if you get all of that, then you understand their actions.

So you can mentalize yourself or you can mentalize someone else. I know you asked me, what can you do to develop compassionate self-awareness? I gave you STEAM because each one of those gives you something to work on and it can give you a portal in. I love that. I'm all about self-awareness over here. So that's very, very helpful. Your other book, Bouncing Back from Rejection. It really builds and expands on these concepts that we were just talking about, and then highlights the connection between attachment and rejection. So let's start with what is rejection sensitivity?

Okay. So bottom line is nobody likes rejection. It's not like anybody who's out there be like, woohoo, I want to be rejected. Yeah, right, exactly. But some people are more sensitive to it. And that means either small rejections. I kind of say a small R feels like a big R. In other words, I don't know, your friend didn't call you back today. Somebody you've been friends with for years

and you feel like, oh my God, they don't like me anymore. You're like turning it into this huge thing. And it was like, it just, it doesn't make sense. So things just get out of hand. So sensitivity, rejection, some people just small things become huge or they're not even there. And you just, if it's an ambiguous situation, you're going to read rejection into it. That would be another example. Got it. What is the relationship between attachment style and how we react to rejection? So if you're securely attached, you're going to be able to handle rejection better. So you'll either just have a better read on what happened. Like you, your friend, you're waiting at a restaurant um post-covid you're waiting at a restaurant for your friend to show up and um and they're late they're 10

minutes late 15 minutes late somebody who's securely attached will be like wow this is really unlike her i wonder what's going on as opposed to somebody who's insecurely attached be like oh my god they blew me off whatever when it When it's somebody, you know, really cares. Got it. So that's someone who's securely attached to be able to read the situation better. Or let's say there is an actual rejection. You go on a blind date. The guy's not interested. The woman's not interested. That's a rejection,

but somebody who's more securely attached will be like oh that doesn't feel good you know what i didn't really know them they weren't really the greatest person anyway and they can kind of cope with it right when you're insecurely attached it's a different it's a different ball game so um if you are have a preoccupied style and the blind date isn't that into you, you'd be like, oh my gosh, what did I do wrong? I must've done something really wrong. And now you're like spiraling about the rejection when there wasn't even enough of a chance to be rejected on a big scale. Like you're this horrible person. That's how it would look different. Yeah. Because I think obviously when we talk rejection, I think a lot of people listening will just immediately go to, I got broken up with. And obviously there are so many

other examples of experiencing rejection in the dating relationship realm. Let's say you're in a relationship and your partner, you want to go on a date night and your partner is like, I'm sorry, I don't have time. I have to work late and I can't. Let's go through how a preoccupied attachment style would react to that. And a dismissive dismissing. Right. So, you know, preoccupied, it's like, oh my gosh, why not? What's wrong? What did I do wrong? What can I do? Can I change something? You know, like you just don't, you can't let it go. Or another thing you might do is like, oh, he doesn't really love me anymore. That's it. I'm sure our relationship's over. And then you like implode around it. Right. Let's talk about what are the types of dysfunctional reactions

to rejection that you discuss in the book? Right i'm actually i'm getting into that now right so it's you might um overreact like you really blow it out of proportion you might you might get angry right because you're taking it as a rejection when it's really i mean i guess technically it's a rejection but it's not going to work out so you might get really angry that's another one you might be you know oversensitive you try. So you were saying like with dismissing, it might be like, oh, it doesn't bother me. It doesn't matter, you know? And when in fact it really does matter. So you might just try to kind of ignore the signs. That makes me think about, I definitely, when I was younger and wasn't in a lot of therapy, maybe would veer more towards

the dismissing. And I think a lot of times I would see if someone, it felt like rejection. I understand what you're saying where you pull back and instead of healthy being like, Hey, well then let's find a time to have a date night. I feel a little disconnected. We haven't had quality time in a while. When you pull back and you know it does hurt, you then, I feel like you even retreat even further because you get in your head of, they don't like me as much. And so now I'm gonna really pull back

and I'm not gonna show as much vulnerability and I'm not gonna show as much effort. And then it starts to spiral where it's like, if you can look at rejection, a lot of times it's not personal. It's really about the other person and what they're going through. And it's hard to not look, take it personally. I mean, a breakup is a breakup, but what we're talking about here is the rejection sensitivity. How the heck do we work on this? You know, how does someone who's like hearing you right now, I'm like, you know what? I think I do this a lot in my relationships. What do I do? How do, how do I take steps to a healthier relationship to rejection? Well, I would begin with the

compassionate self-awareness piece because you need to understand what's going on. And instead of beating yourself up, like, Oh my God, I'm such a horrible person that I do this. What's my problem? To be able to develop the self-awareness, be compassionate, like, okay, I'm not choosing this. It's not like I want to be feeling this way. How can I help myself? And then depending on your circumstance. So if you're in a relationship with a caring partner, you might practice effective communication. So in other words, you might say, hey, wow, that really hurt. I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but this is how I took it. And then they can share with you what they're saying. You could do it with your partner. You could do it in your own head. So let me take a breath. Let me step back. Do I really think

she meant it the way that I took it? Do I really think that that's what's going on? And this is actually a good thing for your listeners. Sometimes people will say, like, no, if I step back, I don't, but it feels true. So something I work on with people is just because it feels true doesn't mean it is true. Okay, this is my emotional thinking. Oh, they don't love me. This is what I think when I kind of step back from the emotion. No, I don't think that's what's really being said. Okay, just because it feels true doesn't mean it is true. And you want to

start separating those two things, how you feel from what you really think or believe. And that sometimes is very helpful. It won't, it won't like turn off the emotion. It won't be like, oh, now I feel great, but it will take a lot of the power out of what you're feeling is true. It just won't feel, it won't feel as true. That's really helpful. That's a really helpful exercise. I'm curious, what inspired you to write a book about rejection? Well, you know, it's interesting because the book bouncing back from rejection is not about relationships per se. It's about rejection sensitivity. So it's in all areas of life. Like if you're an actor, if you're in real estate, you're like, it could be anywhere. And a lot of when I talk with people or, you know, you read, it's just the rejection is so huge.

And it's a difficult thing to cope with. A flip side of talking about that is resilience. People who are more securely attached tend to be more resilient. It's just the way it is. the attachment struggles and zooming in on this, the rejection piece and helping people to focus there and develop greater, greater resilience or understand their rejection sensitivity so they can develop the greater resilience. If someone hasn't read this book yet and they're like, oh God, I feel like it's going to be, it's going to be calling me out. It's hard to read. What are some of the main points that you would like to hit to really encourage someone to give this book a chance and read it? It's really the approach of honestly, both books is one of self-understanding and my hope with bouncing back from rejection is that when you consider the rejection sensitivity,

you're going to be doing it from the perspective under having empathy for yourself. Like getting to the point where you can say, oh my gosh, of course I'm sensitive to rejection. Of course I would be, given these things that have happened in my life. How could I not be? Oh my gosh, it makes me sad that I feel this way

and I really want to grow and get better. And so that hopefully is, it's not so intimidating, right? It's just, it'll feel like a supportive friend. If you have trouble taking a step back, one thought exercise, which is really helpful, is to think if this was a friend of mine, how would I think about it? How would I react? Or even more so if you have a child, if this was my child, how would I respond? You know, would I have empathy? And I think that sometimes when we can't do it for ourselves, we can do it for someone

else. Then you can practice saying, okay, well, it's for them. I'm doing this. What's going on for me? And you just kind of practice transferring that to yourself. So helpful. Also to wrap up one of my last questions you wrote in your, in, um, insecure and love in chapter two, I had written

down because it was really impactful. You wrote your experience in adult relationships is very much related to how well each of these functions were met by caregivers during childhood. And the three functions are proximity, safe haven, and secure base. Can you explain those to the listeners so they have a better understanding of how impactful their childhood and upbringing has an influence on their attachment styles? Absolutely. So going back to the beginning, when you asked me to describe attachment, I said, you need to board into the world. We have an attachment system because we

need to be taken care of to be safe in the world. So the basis attachment system because we need to be taken care of to be safe in the world. So the basis of that is you need a caregiver who's right there. That's the proximity. Someone's got to be right there. Now, as you get older and you kind of wander away from your caregiver, whether you're toddling away when you're little or getting out into the neighborhood or going further out, you have to be able to hold a sense of that person within yourself. We call them mental representations, but a sense. So as an adult, you have a sense of proximity, even when you're halfway around the world from your partner,

because you carry them in you. So that's the proximity part. And that's something we learn to do over time. So that's proximity. Safe haven is, again, you imagine like a little child, that if they're really upset, that they can turn to mom, dad, caregiver, and help them feel safe in the world.

Hugely important to feel safe in the world and to actually be safe in the world, right? To actually be a safe haven. And then finally, when you feel safe, if you have a child who feels safe, and safe also means again, psychologically, emotionally, I feel accepted, whether I'm crying or angry, or, you know, or happily playing, I'm equally accepted and cared about, then when I go to explore the world, now that means looking around my environment, exploring the things I'm interested in, that I am supported. That, you know, so then you have a secure base.

So you can look to your caregiver, your significant other, and they'll support you in exploring yourself. Proximity, you feel close. Safe haven, you feel secure, you know, safe and secure base. You can explore yourself out in the world. And it's so helpful when I was reading that, because I remember in the book you talk about, it's as simple as like, when you were crying as a child, how quickly did your mother react and go pick you up? And like that act will literally affect how you feel in terms of what you need out of a partner in the longterm of your, I guess, would that be prop like proximity? Cause I'm thinking for someone listening, like when you're talking about safe Haven,

if someone was raised in an abusive environment, they didn't have that. And so that's going to translate into their adult life and into their attachment style and just like proximity if their parents were always gone and you were always alone as a child there's these little things that if you look at it unbiasedly you can have more empathy for yourself recognizing like oh no wonder i am like this it's not just the the the outward signs of it that's important equally important is the inward so it's not just the, the, the outward signs of it. That's important. Equally important is the inward. So it's not just, did they pick you up? What was the quality of that? So were they, when your caregiver responded to you crying, did they show a sense of concern and then were they able

to do it in a calming way? So if they do it in a way like, Oh my God, I'm so worried. And then they're starting to flipping out. You learn to anxious. If they don't respond and they're not there, you feel left alone. If they show up, they show like, oh my gosh, you're hurt. Oh, poor baby. And they're calming. This is a more secure response. And you can see how, if that happens again and again and again, each day, several times a day over the course of your life, you would come to expect that you would be accepted for whatever's going on or you'll be disregarded or there'll be a hostile response. And you'll also come to layered again, experience upon experience, how you experience yourself. Right. So if it's always hostile, you're going to feel like, oh, what's wrong with me? You might be angry with them, but also like something's wrong with you. So that it's so helpful because it

all plays in. And I can't thank you enough for coming on and explaining all this because it truly relates to every single person listening, experience something in their childhood. And we all have our certain attachment styles. And it was so helpful you also explaining, you don't have to pigeonhole yourself. You're not fully dismissing. You could have secure tendencies and you could also have moments of dismissing or moments of preoccupied or fearful. And it's also inspiring to hear you say like, but you can reach being secure if you take these certain steps and it's in our control, not anyone else's. What was out of our control was our childhood, how we were raised, how we were treated, but it is in our control, how we move forward and how we care for

ourselves. So I can't thank you enough. The daddy gang is going to love you. And this was so helpful, truly. I'm excited and I want to continue the conversation. And next time you write another book, you're coming on. All right. Alex, thank you so much. You're a delight to talk with, really. Thank you again. That was amazing. Thanks for your time, really. you