Call Her Daddy - Katie Couric: Sexism, Storytelling & Standing Up to Cancer

Episode Date: June 24, 2026

Join Alex in the New York City for an interview with Katie Couric. Katie discusses the milestone of becoming the first woman to solo anchor the evening news and the sexism, setbacks and double standards she has overcome throughout her career. She opens up about the loss of her first husband to cancer and how she navigated grief as a single mother. Katie also breaks down the inequity in healthcare and why women continue to face challenges when it comes to diagnosis, treatment and advocacy. Enjoy! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Katie Kirk, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. You are one of the most legendary journalists of all time. You are the first woman to ever solo anchor the evening news. You have literally interviewed everyone from world leaders to Taylor Swift. You have broken barriers for women, all while managing a lot of personal struggles along the way. And so I feel like we have so much to talk about today. And I'm very, very excited to be here with you. Well, thank you for having me. We do have so much to talk about.

And I'm going to have to resist Alex asking you a million questions. I was literally just going to ask you that because I was like, I know you're usually in my seat, getting to ask all the questions, getting to be in control. How does it feel when you have to be on the other end of it? I think it actually depends a lot, honestly, no pressure on the interviewer. No pressure. Thank you, Katie. But, you know, what I love about you is you're always really well prepared, which is so important. And I think it shows, I think, first of all, puts the person at ease. They feel like, wow, this person isn't just kind of sitting down.

They know something about me. They've done their homework. They have found little interesting things that they are, you know, interested in. And so I think when somebody's prepared and interested, it makes it a lot more fun. I agree. I think it's like it almost also feels safer because you're like, oh, you got me. Like you want to be here. I want to be here.

And trust me, I got you, Katie. Okay. Thank you. I was thinking about it. The last time, one of the last times I was in New York interviewing someone was Amy Schumer. Mm. And I heard from little Bertie that there was like a pretty bold person. prank that she played on you and your husband? What happened? So funny. God, I think we were at a

dinner. I think it might have been for Glamour magazine. I can't remember. This was, God, maybe 10 years ago or something. And I left my phone on the table. My husband was meeting me at this party. He was talking to his free pass, Carrie Russell. Who he knows because a friend of his is a director and directed Carrie and something. Anyway, so my husband is talking to Carrie Russell. And I'm like, I better go over and say hi to him. I'd leave my phone on the table. I guess it was unlocked. And Amy texted my husband.

I guess maybe my text messages were open and said something like anal tonight. No. Yeah. No. And so it was very funny. She used it in her stand-up. She talked about it on Jimmy Fallon. But I always said, Amy, you didn't tell anyone what my husband texted you.

back, which was again? No. Wait, and did you immediately know it was a joke? Or were you like, what is that? Okay. It was like so crazy. We're like, what is happening to me right now? No, no.

It was really funny and honestly gave her a lot of material for many routines. And you know what? That's the whole point of this. But it was embarrassing because I think, like my phone blew up. I think we went to bed right before like the late night shows came on. And the next morning, of course, everybody told us that she told that story. on Jimmy Fallon, but it was funny. You're like, lucky me. I thought it was funny. Okay, I feel like whenever you hear someone is a journalist, people have preconceived notions. They're like, oh, they're probably

going to be a little stuffy, a little serious. But how would you describe your personality? Like, what are you like? Ah, I think I'm really funny. I'm incredibly outgoing. Like, I will talk to this table. I never met a stranger. I think you and I have some similarities there. I sort of always hated the perky word because I felt it, that description sounds demeaning and sort of kind of somebody that isn't smart. Perky seems sort of vapid to me. You're right, especially as a woman, if you are fun and you're outgoing, I think a lot of people then naturally believe that you can't be serious or the intellect isn't there. Definitely. And I so relate.

People compartmentalize women. Completely. put them in these boxes and we contain multitudes, as Walt Whitman says. What a concept. You know, Katie, what a concept. We can have multiple different things about us and not be like one like singular focused woman. Right.

So I like that. Yeah. Okay. Love it. Having been on air for so many years, like I have not been someone who's doing live, right? I'm doing podcasting, but you have been in the trenches. Things have been thrown at you in the moment. You have to go with it.

If you have to just think at the top of your head, what is one of the craziest things that you've had to deal with on air in a moment? I mean, actually, probably, and this is obviously a very serious thing, but the most challenging time I was on live television was when 9-11 happened. Because Alex, you know, I was doing the Today Show. It was before the Today Show had expanded to multiple hours. It ended at 9. The first plane hit at 846. And we, Matt Lauer and I and Al Roker, I'll never forget it, were having to process what we were seeing, what was happening, trying to understand it, like in real time, in the most terrifying situation you can imagine. And just like everybody who was watching us, We had no idea what was happening. And it was so interesting to me. I remember having this magical thinking that, oh, it's before 9 o'clock, so a lot of people aren't in the office yet. And I remember thinking, I talked to somebody recently about this, and they thought the same thing.

Oh, it must have been a pilot who had a heart attack or something terrible happened because that had happened at the Empire State Building, like many years before that. something terrible it happened with a much smaller plane. So, you know, it's so interesting how you process these things and you kind of try to rationalize them and make sense of them. And then, of course, we were sitting there when the second plane went into the, you know, the World Trade Center. And I remember my hand was shaking. And I also remember Matt saying, this is an act of terrorism. That whole day was spent, you know, just it got worse and worse. And then the plane, you know, crashing in Shanksville. And it was just terrible.

And I've often said that that was a moment where I've never felt a greater sense of responsibility to viewers because they were desperate for information. Nobody knew what was going on. everybody was so freaked out and confused. Do you remember that at all? You must have been very young. I was. I was in second grade and I remember I will never forget. It's so chilling to hear you speak about it because now as an adult thinking about the position you were in and being someone in media, there's so much going through my brain right now because, number one, I remember standing in my living room with my parents and my neighbors screaming and everyone on our cul-de-sac was, running to each other's houses. Because you were in Connecticut, right? Pennsylvania at this time. And my mom and dad are standing in front of the TV and we're watching you.

And we're watching you tell us what's going on. Me learning in real time right along with you, right? And it was so, it was so scary. Honestly, there was a moment that morning I felt like the world was ending. That, you know, you just didn't know how many planes had been high. act. You didn't know sort of who was behind it. I remember during, like, when somebody else was doing an interview, I ran into our production area and I called my parents. And my mom and dad at the time, they've since passed away, but they lived in Northern Virginia, not far from the Pentagon. And I

remember calling them and telling them to get in the basement. I mean, it was so scary. You just didn't know kind of how bad it was going to be. It was so surreal as a child. And I remember not fully understanding because my aunt had lost someone in the towers. And so there was crying and screaming. And I just remember watching my parents being so scared. And it was one of the most horrific times. I agree for this entire country. It's going to be, I think, now almost 25 years. Five years this September. But it was so, it was such collective trauma. It is one of those things that like living through that you will never forget yes even as young as whatever i was or younger like you will never forget where you were and to think about you as a journalist on air the

news was on 24 hours a day like you when do you think you even process what was happening because all of us are looking to you like you're like our our journalist slash therapist at the time being like tell us what's happening you you go into basically fight or flight mode just be like i have to do my job. Your hands are shaking, but you have to be locked in. When did you process all that had happened? I think it took a few days, honestly, because I think I stayed the whole day. I did the evening news with Brian Williams that night. And then I remember going home and Lori Beth had gotten Ellie and Carrie my daughters. And we lived on the Upper East Side. And I remember coming home and the acrid smell, a burnt plastic and electrical wire had come all the way up to 91st and Park

Avenue. And people were kind of walking around our neighborhood in a complete days holding candles. Isn't that so weird? And even for days afterwards, we'd see, you know, F-16s flying sort of close to New York City. It really did feel like a movie. Yeah. Yeah. And like the end of the world. I, again, everyone's family is watching anyone that had been affected. Like, we were with you and we think about you. And it's crazy because even like, I feel like we both just had tears in our eyes when we were just thinking about that moment, like 25 years. And it also still feels like it was yesterday.

Also sitting in New York City doing this interview right now. Like, it is remarkable, though, how much our country came back from that moment. And to see the way the resilience and the past. and the passion and the pride for who we are, especially those New Yorkers. But my God, we as a country were so resilient in that moment. You know, I think back at that moment, too, and I think about how unified we were and how apolitical the whole thing was and how countries around the world supported us. And, I mean, yes, for all the families who lost people they love, I have a lot.

a friend who lost her fiance and her brother in 9-11. I've kept up with a number of people I interviewed that day. Then I've thought a lot about what motivates people. And I think in a way, they come to honor the lives lost to say, this person met something. And I want to show the country who this person was. It's such a good point, Katie. It's like when it is something that has so deeply affected your life, I think in a way, the way that also we as human beings survive is by sharing our stories and connecting with others, right? So to sit and self-isolate, you're only going to ruminate on it more.

You're only going to feel whether it's shame or guilt or scared. And to actually like almost like break bread with other people and talk about it, it gives some not even levity, but just like it honors it in a way that it. I agree. Yeah. You know, that's interesting, like the role of storytelling in, you know, since the beginning of time, right? This need to share and to, you know, validate a life lost. I just think it's so interesting because so many times throughout my career I have spoken to people who are just so anguished and have experienced something horrible. and yet and yet they're willing and almost anxious to come on and talk about it.

I just think it's so interesting. I can't help but think, like, yes, you've become obviously one of the most famous anchors of all time. Which is hilarious to me. No, no, but you like going back to your origin days, which I think is so fascinating when people are like looking at you. Katie Kirk, oh my God, you're telling us these moments that you've been in these huge moments. early days, a major executive looked at you and told you that you shouldn't be on air. It was even worse than that. Tell me the story because of like, what?

Well, you know, I think because I looked kind of young and wasn't the prototypical news anchor person type, when I got into the business, I always wanted to be a reporter because I've always loved to write and that curiosity thing. to be able to talk to anybody about anything kind of made, I thought, me a perfect fit to be a reporter. And, you know, I started out. And when I was 22, I looked probably 16. And in fact, the Bureau Chief of CNN in Washington said, we're going to give you a break kid. You're going to go to the White House and you're going to report. You're going to say what the president is doing that day, what's on the schedule. So I was very excited. I was like practicing all night in my. talking to my hairbrush like Marsha Brady and terrible diarrhea because I was so stressed out. I get to the White House. I give the whole spiel like, today the president is meeting with National Security advisors, a big new Bruchensky. I had like a spamped suit on, you know. I was very, very professional. You're like, I know it to a T. What I was doing, what I was saying. And then I knew I wasn't very good. You know, I hadn't done it really before. And I came back and I

asked the assignment editor. You know, the camera crew was like, yeah, that was fine. So I could tell, like, I went back and this guy named Bill Hensel, who's such a doll, I said, how did it go? He goes, well, Rees-Schoenfeld, the president of CNN at the time, he called and said he never wanted to see you on there again. I was like, great. What did you feel in that moment?

I felt obviously so deflated and defeated and wondered if I was doing the right thing, even pursuing this as a career, you know, full of self-doubt. And then I kind of picked myself out and I thought, okay, that sucked. And I looked around the room and I was like, these people are smart. What do they have that I don't have? Experience. They've done this a lot more than I have. And I thought there's no reason I'm, you know, baseline as smart as they are, that I couldn't, with some practice, become good at this. And that's what I figured. And that's when I decided I just have to keep doing it. That is such a good attitude to have, because I'm not going to lie, hearing from the head of CNN being like, girl, get off my screen. You're like, I don't know. I actually think it's painful that he knows my name now because I wish he didn't know my name.

in that capacity. I think there's a lot of young women who obviously watch my show that could take some advice from this moment because I think we can all relate in some capacity to the idea of feeling like, oh my God, I messed up a moment. And yes, it is because I'm young and I'm inexperienced. But sometimes these fields that we're walking into, it doesn't feel like there's any time for gaining the experience because it's like you're shoved in and it's like, do it right or get off. Yeah. Do you have any advice for anyone who has gone through a. A setback. Yeah, setback and how to regain that confidence. Yeah, I mean, I think you have to take an honest look at yourself and say, okay, what did I do wrong? What could I do better? And how do I get from A to B, right? Like, how do I get so that in another situation, so that might mean learning more, reading more, talking to more people, figuring out what you missed and how you can make up for that.

So I think it can be a setback, but it doesn't have to be permanent. It can just be sort of like an early warning system saying, and you know what, the thing is, if I had been thrust into a situation and made to cover certain stories, I wouldn't have been ready. And in a weird way, he did me a great favor by saying, you're not ready for this. And that as a result, I went and I worked in low. news. I covered, you know, bodies and trunks in Miami and drug deals gone bad. And, you know, I interviewed Ray Charles in Atlanta. I did, I think I even, did I interview Boy George. Yeah. All these different people. And I did a whole variety of work. So, and then I covered the Pentagon, which was really a challenge because I didn't have, my dad was in the Navy, but I didn't have this great military expertise. But what happened. was I worked really hard and when this opportunity to anchor the Today Show came along, it was like I was ready. I was seasoned and I had confidence and the experience. What Malcolm Gladwell says,

you have to do anything for 10,000 hours to become good at it. And in a weird way, I think it can be really motivated when you're told you're not good enough. I have another funny story, my news director who I really like and who hates this story when I was at Washington at WRC at the NBC station in Washington. I asked if I could anchor because I was just like this little street reporter and I was, you know, very aggressive little street reporter running around D.C. and and the whole Washington area. And I said to him, hey, can I try anchoring? Because I just wanted to expand my abilities. And he said, sure. So I anchored the morning cut-ins. Those were like the local news in between the Today Show like at 825 and 725. when they'd go to your local station.

Well, I had to run the teleprompter. I had never timed something. I was awful. Like, I kept talking and the commercial had already started. You know, I was terrible. So I said to him, hey, you know, what did you think type thing? I knew I was awful. And he's, he's, I said, do you think I could anchor again?

He said, well, maybe if you go to a really, really, really small market, you can try. Katie. I was just getting punched in the face. But it was actually really funny because when I ultimately ended up at NBC, I filled in for the nightly news on a Saturday night, you know, during a holiday when they were desperate. But I remember I ran into, you know, aforementioned news director. And I said, hey, is the whole country a small enough market for you? And he was like, ha, ha, ha, ha. He's like, ha, ha, shut up.

Don't remind me. But it is sort of hard. Like, you know, when Reese Schoenfeld said that, I should have probably called him when I was named the co-anchor, the Today Show and be like, yo, remember Reese? I figured it out. I figured it out. And they're all like, yeah, you did. Okay, you got us.

But it can be motivating. It can. And obviously it was. I was going to say, obviously, the executive ended up being wrong because now, again, look where you are. you went on to become the first woman to solo anchor the evening news. I need you to explain to me, like, and more also to my audience, like how historic that was at the time. You were the first woman to ever done it. This had been the territory of sort of white authority figure, somebody who could be considered, you know, worthy of delivering the evening news was always a man.

So when I have this opportunity, I thought this is such an important thing to do for all the little girls and the little boys out there to see that, and we're still struggling, by the way, with taking women in positions of power seriously. But I thought this is an opportunity I can't say no to. And that's why it was sort of a big deal. And I remember I had taken my daughters to the Galapagos Islands on a spring break or whatever. And this mom came up to me and said, this was after I had done my, I guess I'd been on the evening news for maybe about eight months or something. She said, it was so exciting when you became the first female anchor of the Today Show. I picked up my daughter from soccer practice. In fact, I didn't even let her stay for the whole practice because I said to her, we're going to.

going home because this is an extremely important moment in history. We're going to watch the first woman to solo anchor an evening newscast. And I said, that is so nice. She said, so we went home, we watched you, and we never watched you again. Wait, what? Katie, these stories, I'm like about to cry. Then you're like, and then she, wait, why did she say that? You're literally about to cry. You're like, thank you. So what the fuck. Is that so crazy? Wait. And I was like, what? I was like, wah, wah. I'm so confused right now. I know. Me too. How did you even respond to that? Were you just like, I just remember. I mean, I was so moved and then I was so insulted all in like 15 seconds.

But it was funny. All right, have a good day. No way, it is. People are funny. I'm sure, I mean, Listen, I'm sure you've experienced a lot of weird comments. Like, oh, you look so much better on television or you look, no, they always say to me, you look so much better in person. Oh, and you're like, the backhanded cobblins and you just stand there and you're like, thank you, question mark. Yeah. Moving on.

Oh, my God. No, but it does that even slash out the last part of the woman's statement, the how important it was. And I agree with you, it is difficult to sit here and also know, like, we've made progress. We haven't really made progress. Some of it, some not. But to know how transformative it was in that moment to have a woman sitting there alone. And it was you. Like, did you feel pressure?

My heart felt like it was going to come out of my chest and land on my script, on my desk. I'll never forget that first night of doing the news. And, you know, it was very exciting, but it was really hard because as a friend of mine said, you know, when you're a trailblazer, you get burned, right? When you're the first of anything to do something, then it's kind of open season. So it was really tough because, you know, it's funny. I was listening to Michelle Obama talk about this and how with you and how no matter what she did, people talked about what she was wearing. They didn't talk about how smart she is, her professional. accomplishments, you know, her education, anything. It was always such a shallow perspective. And that sort of happened to me, too. People wrote about my makeup and my hair and the way I held my hands at the desk and all these other things. So it was challenging. And, you know, I also think I had had this mandate, they wanted me to kind of change up the way the evening news was done. They wanted it to be sort of less good evening, you know, the voice of God kind of thing. They wanted it to be

more accessible, but what they didn't realize, i.e. Les Moonvese. Les Movese. was ahead of CBS at the time, was that that audience is very old. CBS is the most traditional network. And they didn't really want a change up. They didn't want to change. I don't think, I think probably. just having someone delivered the news wearing lipstick was jarring enough. But then we were sort of, I was brought there to kind of change up the format. So viewers hated it. Internally, I had a lot of of people, naysayers and people trying to sabotage me internally. And it made for a really challenging time in my life. And I tell this funny story. I think I wrote about it in my book that But I was eating dinner with Ellie and Carrie and Lori Beth, our nanny, who I love, who was like my wife and really another parent to my girls.

And I started crying at the dinner table because I was under so much pressure, both internally, externally, just everything. And talk about self-doubt. And I was like, I don't think I can do this job anymore. And they're like pretty startled because I didn't do that a lot in front of my kids, you know? And they said, what's wrong? And I was like, everyone is just no mean to me. And Ellie and Carrie, who was 10 at the time, said, Mom, remember what Samantha said and sex in the city? And I was like, oh, Jesus Christ, this is really bad that I'm allowing my daughter.

Hopefully she didn't watch the funky spunk episode. So she goes, Samantha said, if I listen to what every bitch in New York City said about me, I'd never leave the house. And it was so funny. And she's such a good mimic that I started laughing and everything was fine. You're 10 year old fully clocking you. You're like, you're right. Also, why are you watching sex in the city? I know, exactly.

Go to your room. I'm a terrible mother. You should not be watching that. That it? I mean, it is so crazy, though, to hear you talk about how you were put in this position. And it also makes it pains me for you because I've dealt with things like that where you're like, you're being told to do something. And then it's all your fault. America's watching and they're like, why the hell is she doing this? And you're like, I am literally, the man paying my paycheck is telling me he wants to shake it up a little bit. I'm just trying to do my job. But it's all

falling on you publicly. Yeah, that was tough. As much as you can, like, I think there's something, um, kind of like the underbelly of the industry, even you just saying the sabotage. Um, as much as you could share, just like a moment you remember where you're like, oh, these people, there are people here that fully want me out and how any, any example, or even just like an, like an isolating moment where you felt like I'm so alone right now. Well, there was a story, you know, 60 Minutes was sort of my dream.

You know, even if I hadn't been asked to anchor the evening news, I think that would have been a great job for me. I love the show. I've watched it ever since I was a little kid. And the head of 60 Minutes at the time, I think maybe because he wasn't really consulted about bringing me over and you know, I was sort of seeing somebody from a different network coming in and sort of muddying the waters. And I hadn't come up in the CBS system. So I don't know. He just, he just didn't like me. And I remember saying to the people who work on 60 Minutes, I've got this great idea. Because I always felt like 60 Minutes was a little behind on like big cultural moments. I said there's this incredible singer. and I think she's going to be the next Madonna.

She's so interesting. She went to Catholic school, but she's so outrageous. And she is huge. And she's got, you know, a huge number one song. I think we should do a profile of this person, Lady Gaga. And they're like, and so the producer, who now is a good friend of mine, called me and said, you know, I talk to Jeff and he said, it's not for us. And I said, okay, flash fast forward a year. And she calls me and says, hey, I think we should, guess what?

Jeff wants to do the piece on Lady Gaga. And I was like, okay, well, she's kind of overexposed now. She was on the cover of Rolling Stone. She wore a meat suit to the Metball or whatever she did. Remember that all this stuff? Oh, God will never forget. Anyway, but she had kind of exploded. And I thought, you know, wouldn't it be nice to get somebody right as they're about to pop

instead of a year later. But I said, okay, well, that's great. Maybe we could do a different angle. Maybe we could talk to the nuns who educated her at Sacred Heart and kind of talk about this juxtaposition of her background in education and this outrageous singer she's become. So they said, great. So I was all excited. I went back over and they had a whiteboard at CBS and they had the name of the correspondent and the story next to it. And I see Lady Gaga, Anderson Cooper. And I was like, what? Like, this was my whole idea. Like, what do you mean? It made me crazy. But that happened again with Hillary Clinton. They said, Jeff Fager, the executive producer, said, Katie, we want you to do a profile of Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State. I said, that's awesome. Maybe I could really focus on

the work she's doing for women and girls all around the world, suddenly my producer is saying, the State Department called, they're very confused because Scott Pelly and his team are calling about Hillary. So I go to Jeff Baker and I say, I thought you wanted me to do Hillary. You told me explicitly that you wanted to assign that story to me. And he said, yeah, we decided to change things up. It made me insane. Oh, I'm pissed. Oh, I'm pissed. I'm like, oh, and what's so frustrating is also when men decide, oh, no, this man should talk to this woman. Oh, and you don't think the woman talking to the woman is going to be a better outcome? Like, it's, and then also the woman who came up with the idea. Well, that's, I think, the point, you know, that that it was sort of a bald face lie. And then it was being done

behind my back, like without even the decency to call me and say, guess what, we've decided to reassign this story and this is why. Instead, I have to find out because the State Department spokesperson tells my producer. So like stuff like that was, you know, talk about getting gaslit. I mean, to me, that is the definition of it. And so those were some of the really tough situations I had to deal with when I was there. I think also something that people maybe can misconstrue is we see you on television, right? And understandably, I think there's so many people in the world that are like, you've made it. If you're on TV, you've made it.

And there's almost this feeling like if you are making it and you're on television, then all of the problems of sexism and misogyny, it must go away. You're powerful now. Katie, you're at the top. And I remember in your memoir, you talk about. an early moment in your career where an executive made a comment about how you're only successful because of your body. My breast size. I was going to say, yeah, or your boobs.

How did that conversation go down, Katie? It's so funny because my husband and I are rewatching Mad Men. Have you watched Mad Men? I have watched some of it. And it's so funny because my mom just said, you have not watched the whole thing. You need to sit down and watch it. It is such a good show. Okay, I'm going to watch it now.

It is really amazing. And it's like, you know, I guess it takes place from the late 50s to maybe 1970. And it's so well done. And the acting is so incredible. Everything about it is, and it's just beautiful. But I watched some of the stuff that was going on back then. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I kind of came of age in this Mad Men era. It wasn't as bad as it was exactly.

But I think about, well, I graduated from college in 1979. And so I started working in television news in the early 80s. And just the way the behavior and the way you were spoken to and diminished, it was like not all that. That's a good story about the CNN guy. But even before that, I was an intern at a radio station in Washington. And I walked in. I went back to say hello, you know, because I was graduating and I was kind of trying to maintain relationships. I wasn't quite sure what I was going to do. And the general manager of the station, I went and said, hi. And he said, are you on the pill? And I said, excuse me? He said, well, your breasts look much bigger than they did last summer. Can you imagine? You know what? I was going to say no. And you know what's even sicker?

Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine, Katie, because these men. And I remember, like, my whole body, you know, like when something happens and you get hot. Because you kind of freeze. Yeah. And you don't know what to do. I was so taken aback. And then at CNN, the story you mentioned is I walked into, like, an executive kind of story meeting, you know, a production meeting in the morning.

And I was filling in for the producer who was on vacation. And I walked in, I don't know what they've been talking about, but he said something like, that's not like Katie. She's been successful because of her hard work, her writing skills, and her breast size. This was like a table, big table surrounded by male executives. You know, a lot of them pretty young because CNN was kind of a bit of a startup back then. And it was just so crazy. But I had this really incredible moment, this anchor I worked for named Don Farmer, and he was married to Chris Curl.

Don has passed away. They were a husband and wife anchor team. And I came back and I was so flummoxed. I said, I said, this just happened. And he said, sit down. We're going to write him a memo together. And he got on his little Smith Corona typewriter. And together we wrote this memo saying, what you said to me was inappropriate, insulting, sexist, and totally unacceptable. I expect an apology immediately. If you do that, we can keep this between us. In other words, I'm not going to go to, I didn't even know if they had human resources back then. You're like, I don't know who I'm going to do. I'm not going to go to anyone. But how great that that, my friend, Don Farmer, said, you do not have to put up with that. We are going to write him this memo.

I mean, what makes me just so hopeful is like I do believe there are men in this world that actually will be allies. And I remember talking about that with Michelle when we were talking. I'm like, what do we do? And she's like, we have to bring the men in because they are the ones in the positions of power. So we can't completely alienate them over and be like, we hate men. It's like we need them to be allies and to help advocate for us in those moments. So the fact that you had a man also in a position of power who looked at you and was like, let me also help you in this moment. Right.

It's invaluable. I don't think I would have known what to do. And I mean, honestly, I'm. I am so grateful to him because not only did he help me in that moment, I get kind of emotional. He helped me realize the importance of standing up for yourself. So it was a life lesson that extended way beyond that incident. And I really owe him a lot. And I've always really been grateful to him for that.

It's so incredible also, I think, like the power and numbers when you are, going through something and to have someone stand by you, not to be isolated, but to be able to turn to your left or right and have someone. Because I think as women also, like, it's real. Like, people can ask you, well, why didn't you, you know, like, why aren't you going to say something? You're like, because I'm, it's scary. You didn't know if you were going to, like, lose your job. And you didn't know what's going to happen. I didn't know who to talk to even, you know, I didn't know, is there somebody I can go to? Yeah.

So it's really it's interesting Katie and I think this is why I knew it would be so fascinating talking to you because it's like the comments about your body the you know the the sexism just in the language of I remember one of the nicknames people had for you was America's sweetheart and while yes that's endearing to some capacity it does kind of remind me of the word perky you brought up earlier because it it's fluffy it's diminishing it diminishing. Diminishing somehow. You're covering the most serious topics in the world. You are talking about stories. And then in one sentence, in one phrase, it's kind of making you sound not serious. Right. I mean, I think also morning shows are particularly challenging because you have to be kind of warm and welcoming. People have to sort of feel comfortable and develop this parisocial relationship with you. but then you're called on to do serious news. So one of the reasons I think that I was so well suited to do the Today Show, because what we've talked at the very beginning, it kind of allowed me to show all different sides of who I am. I could have fun. I could, you know, fly across the plaza as Peter Pan on Halloween.

But then I could cover 9-11 or interview Tony Blair or do, you know, go cover the Iraq War. And, you know, so, or the person. Gulf War at the time. So, you know, it really requires you to flex so many different muscles. But I think also people who don't see the breadth of your work can sort of say, oh, she's cute and perky and fun and America's sweetheart. And they discount the more serious stuff. I'm curious to, in your opinion, And like, why do you think people are so skeptical to trust women in a position of power and they're so trusting of men? I think it's, I do think it's kind of changed. I think we've been culturally conditioned, you know, I think that our, I read this book called Blindspot because I did a documentary about sexism in Silicon Valley.

in the tech world. And, you know, from a very early age, our brains are taught to associate certain images with certain roles. And I think those things are really hard to unspool. And so I think that for so long, all of our images of people in power have been male. And I think it just takes us like, you know,

different framing. to respect women in that role. And as we mentioned a couple of times, and I know you interviewed Kamala Harris, I think that people are still, for whatever reason, have a hard time still accepting women in positions of power and authority.

I do think it's changing somewhat, but I still think it's there. I think that strain still exists. I agree. when Michelle said that she doesn't think that we are ready for a female president, what is your take? I thought it was a really sad statement that is probably true. I think particularly right now where there has been, I think, so much backlash and regression in terms of the progress that we've made in so many different. areas. I think right now, I think that's probably true right now. But I don't, I hope it's not true

for my lifetime. I really, really, and I really thought Hillary Clinton was going to be elected president. I truly did. And I think she would have been a magnificent, a magnificent president. She is so scary smart. Have you interviewed her? I have not. You have got to interview Hillary Clinton. You will be blown away. She is just brilliant. And she would have been wonderful.

But I hope, you know, I hope that I'll see a female president. I know like Michelle said. She's like, prove me wrong. I'd love to be wrong. I was like, shit. Yeah. And I also think it's always not that we need to, but important to clarify for all the women listening. It's not because a woman, a woman's not ready.

It's because of the sexism and the misogyny and the patriarchy that's so ingrained. That's like the woman can do the job just as good if not better. And I think that's something that's been really apparent. And I was having this conversation with my mom the other week. We were talking about how it's so fascinating when you look at the way that we speak about women from a young age of like our brains develop faster and we are more mature and we are the class presidents. and we are the ones leading. And then you get to college and there's like the frat boys

and then the women are like at the time doing these men's homework and they're succeeding and they're driving. And then we get out of college and somehow like he gets the job over the woman that was the president of the entire organization. You're like, wait, so if we're always saying

men are so immature, they're so immature, it takes them longer to mature. All of a sudden we're like, had they leapfrog, wait, how did that happen? I think it's because if, I think it says self-fulfilling prophecy in a way. I think that people,

hire people who look like them. And until you break that cycle, you have men hiring other men who they can relate to, they want to go the golf course with. And I think that it's this sort of cycle. And that's what we have to break. And then, you know, we have to make sure that women want to bring up other women too, you know. And I think that's so challenging. I've always been fascinated. Like, if you're ambitious and competitive, how do you both compete with your female colleagues and support them at the same time? And I think that's such an interesting conversation that really deserves to be had. I agree. I think it's something that has so much nuance. And I do think it is the right time to start having that conversation because there is headway in there is not just one woman in a room anymore.

Right. There's all women in this room. You know what I mean? So it's like, but then how do we now get into phase two? Okay, now there's a couple of us in the room. Right. Fabulous. We made it, girls.

Now what are we doing to actually ensure that we're all lifting each other up? It is hard because no matter what, even if there are a lot of spaces, right, a lot of spots and it's not, you know, like what do they call it? Scarcity mindset, yeah. That it's still, you know, competitive. And men are very competitive too, right? and it's just a really interesting conversation. As I mentioned in the beginning of this interview, I know that during your entire career, you also were going through a lot personally. Your husband back at the time was diagnosed with colon cancer.

You had to deal with it privately, but you also had to deal with it publicly. Like, looking back, how did you navigate both of those dynamics? It was terrible. You know, it was so out of the blue that I remember I got a call from, we had an Irish nanny named Nula. And she called me and she said, you have to come home. Jay is doubled over in pain. And something is seriously wrong. And I remember meeting him.

He didn't even have a doctor. You know, he was 41. So many men, you know, don't go the doctor. or I hope they do now more than they did, but he didn't have a regular, you know, internist. And so we met at my internist, and I remember he said to us, don't worry, it's not cancer,

even though it obviously was. And, you know, I went from, like, having this happy marriage, normal, you know, I'll see you when I get home, situation to your husband has stage poor colon cancer and it's all over his liver and the prognosis is bleak. Like in a nanosecond, everything changed. So he was sick for nine months and it was hell. It was hell. It was, you know, our girls when he was diagnosed were one and five. And it was crushing and heartbreaking. And to see someone young and healthy and smart and

vibrant and loving and incredible father and husband suddenly facing this, what was ultimately a death sentence was just excruciating. And so, you know, you get through it because you have no choice. was horrific, horrific. And I kept working and I, the only respite I had, honestly, was when I was on the Today Show. It's the only time when I wasn't thinking about it 24-7, you know, if I had to do an interview, my brain just couldn't, couldn't contain two thoughts at one time. I had to really concentrate on what I was doing. But as soon as it went to commercial, I would just be devastated again. And so it was really, really hard. It was really, really hard.

And then there was the whole tabloid aspect, you know, people writing about it. You know, I remember a nurse, Jay had to have some surgery and a nurse came in with the National Inquirer and said, look, you're on the cover of that National Inquirer, like Katie's private pain. And I was like, why in the fuck would you do that to me? Like, why would you bring that in to our hospital room to show me? Like, what an idiot. So it was like trying to maintain his privacy, our privacy as a family, being a public figure, and obviously just doing everything I possibly could to try to figure out if there was any kind of treatment, you know, anything that would even treat this disease like a chronic illness.

But back then, there were very few therapies available. and, well, you can imagine, imagine just seeing somebody you love at such a young age, get sick and get sicker and sicker and sicker and not being able to do anything. No, and that's the thing. Like, you're like me. You know, you're probably like, I can fix it or I'll, let's figure this out. And that's what I kept saying to Jay, we'll figure this out, we'll figure this out. And the thing is, there was nothing to figure out because there was nothing to do.

And I think, obviously, there were so many levels of this that were hard. But that feeling of not being able to do anything about it was just, you know, so hard. And I think there's something, it's like you do that too because it helps you feel like there's some, you have some semblance of control. like because what else are you going to do? Just sit there. Right. Like you're trying to convince your pals. Like we're got this.

Like we're going to figure this out. And it's like it's to help you try to stay motivated during a time where it feels like there is there is no light at the end of the tunnel. And you're stuck and you don't know what to do and you're incapable of helping the person you love the most. I can't imagine the pain. Well, that's why I became like a maniac. I would call pharmaceutical companies. All my friends at NBC pretended like we were doing a campaign. cancer special, which is probably so unethical, but they would call, like, you know, to find out,

like a biotech firm, to find out about clinical trials. I would search the internet every day. And we had, and, and unfortunately, like, there was just nothing. And he was sick for nine months. That's all. And, um, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Yeah. It was terrible, honestly. But so many families, You know, so many families go through this. I talk to so many people who have dealt with cancer, but also other terrible diseases like ALS. And that's why medical research is so critically important. And it just infuriated me, Alex, that all these millions of dollars were taken away from scientists. That will be devastating to the progress we're really starting to make. And cancer research, other really terrible diseases. Right, because it's like when you're in it, you see it so clearly of how much we need to understand how to solve something. Yeah. And you're sitting there, like, screaming in to a void and no one can help you. And cancer is really a very complex disease. You know, it's like a million diseases and a million different biologies. And my sister Emily,

you know, just a couple years after Jay died, she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And she, it's so weird because I had, I had, I had never. never had anything bad happened to me. Like Jay, my husband used to say I was born on a sunny day. You know, I was just a very, and I still am, believe it or not, but a positive person. And then, like, Jay died and then my sister Emily died. And it was just my 40s were really, really hard, you know. I also think about you in that moment. You know, I know you said they were one and five. And then when your husband at the time passed, they were two and six. Yeah. You're a single mother. You're a working woman. You have to show up as a mom for these young daughters. But also like, how did you handle also grieving? And like, did you ever give yourself

the grace to grieve and to be upset and to be like, fuck the world, this isn't fair? Or did you just go kind of into autopilot mode for them? I mean, I think the grieving process started when Jay was diagnosed. And I knew the prognosis was so tough. even though I tried to be hopeful and I tried to say, we'll figure it out. I think I knew in my heart that this was a very challenging diagnosis. And I think what was helpful to me is I think when something like this happens, it's so isolating. But I think, believe it or not, being a public person, I got so much support. Like I got, I had bins and bins full of people who had written me sympathy cards and sent me

mask cards and all these things, just complete strangers who I think. And that was so comforting. And I think if absent of that, you know, I think it could have been an incredibly lonely, isolating experience. That's why I think it's so helpful when people get together and support groups and people have had similar experiences. But in a weird way, that was extremely helpful because I had so much support, even from people I had never met and will never meet. Wow. I think also there's such a difference between moving on and then moving forward. And as you then progressed,

you went back to work. You're finding, you know, your new normal, your family and being a single mother and eventually putting yourself back out there. But like, how did you move forward without feeling guilty? Yeah. I think it took a while. I kept thinking of this Thomas Jefferson quote. He said something like, the earth belongs to the living. And I remember thinking if this had been, happened to me and Jay was the surviving spouse.

that I wouldn't want his life destroyed to. And I think I just thought, you know, I always say we're all terminal, right? We all have a finite amount of time on the planet. And I wanted my children to be happy and healthy. I didn't want this to destroy our entire family unit. And so I really made a decision that I was going to find joy and find and and create a happy home life for my girls. And then ultimately, I was like, I'm a very traditional person. I would like to ultimately have a partner. And so, you know, I at some point started dating and everything. And, you know, it was a very strange thing because people would write about like if I went out with somebody or whatever it was it was hard but I ended up being single for a long time and having serious boyfriends that didn't work out for one reason or another and now I've been very happily married since I know I was thinking about that 2014 yeah yes it was so it was like about 15 years after you lost Jay that you end up getting remarried how have you you been able to hold space for both of those really major core relationships in your life?

What's great about John, and I've often said this, he has never felt threatened by Jay's memory. And that is a beautiful thing. You know, he also, he says, you know, he understands there's room in my heart to hold two people at the same time. And that's a real gift, you know. Oh, that's also someone that loves you so much that, like, so much of who you also are is because of that first marriage and how much you loved that person. Yeah. And it also allowed you to find your new husband. And so there's so much positive in that. That's really beautiful. Yeah. And that's, I mean, if you can find somebody like that. And, you know, I also think we idealize people who have passed away, you know. And my relationship with Jay wasn't perfect. We had challenges in our marriage. And I think kind of being clear-eyed about that, too, has made me, you know, made me much more receptive to being with somebody else and someone like John with whom I have a different relationship, but a wonderful relationship. So I don't know.

I think just all about perspective. and, you know, I feel really, really lucky. When I think about also, you know, you're talking about how you had never had anything bad happened to you. And then the series of events started to spiral. You are a major health care advocate and you are, you co-founded the organization, stand up to cancer. A few years ago, you were diagnosed with breast cancer. Right. And I'm like, Katie, I'm like, poor Alex is like, when will it?

No, I just feel, I'm like, oh my God, to go through what you went through with your first husband, then your sister, now yourself. Like, how did the work that you had done in the space and the experiences that you had had with cancer affect the way that you approach this diagnosis and this moment in your life? Well, I think when you are diagnosed with cancer or somebody you love is diagnosed with cancer, it is like being thrust into a world that with a vocabulary you don't understand. It's like suddenly being thrust into a foreign country. You don't speak the language. You don't understand what's going on. I feel just so fortunate. And I kept thinking, I'm so lucky.

I have access to these extraordinary doctors. And when your health care really depends on your checking account and your zip code, which I think is such a travesty that all people don't have access to the best medicine has to offer, I did. And I was so grateful for that. I mean, now being cancer-free, congratulations. My audience is primarily women, as I've mentioned. I know you've been working on a film hormonal. Yeah. Which discusses how inequity in medical research funding has directly impacted women's health.

Can you share what has been the most shocking or illuminating thing that you've learned during the project? There's so much about this that is shocking. I started to really pay attention to this about five or six years ago. I think, you know, my spidey sense is really good. It's kind of seeing these issues that are kind of bubbling up because I read, I just am reading. all the time. And I started noticing that there started to be a lot written about health care and these inequities. And for a while, it really focused on menopause and how menopause had been such a taboo topic. But I realized that really from puberty to old age, women have been dismissed.

and marginalized, and the research about them has been so underfunded. It is so, it was maddening. And I kept reading, honestly, statistic after statistic. And I saw how this impenetrable sexism had really shaped our medical establishment and how scientific research has been conducted for decades, for decades, where women were really treated as small men with boobs. And they weren't really studied because it was thought that their hormonal fluctuations would screw up the research.

So, I mean, I have had so many aha moments, like, this is insane that women weren't required to be included in clinical trials until 1993. It wasn't until 10 years ago that scientists even differentiated between men and women in their studies. You know, gosh, what else? This is a really great statistic that really, you know, makes me pissed. That erectile dysfunction, which affects 19% of all men has gotten five times as much funding as PMS, which affects 90% of all women. Let's just take a minute, Katie. Doesn't that say it all? Like, I don't even...

Women have been so ignored, dismissed, marginalized, and I think one percent of global research dollars and investment or innovation. is invested in women's health other than cancer. I mean, honestly, women take an average of four extra years to be diagnosed than men. We've been looking at endometriosis. The average time frame for a woman to be diagnosed with that is 10 years. 50% of women who have it are walking around and haven't been diagnosed. And, you know, you look at the women's health initiative and estrogen replacement therapy and how that was all screwed up. And for 30 years, like, for example, because I have

estrogen receptor positive breast cancer, I can't do HRT anymore. And can I tell you, enjoy your estrogen while you have it, honey? Because it is a wonder hormone. I mean, it is, it's responsible for making you feel like it's, it's a mood elevator. It's a lubricator for your joints and a lot of other things, if you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And, um, And yet I can't take it now and I can't tell you how much I miss it. And because I cannot take extra estrogen and I can't help but wonder if this women's health initiative hadn't been, you know, prematurely stopped, if they would have figured out a way to have estrogen that would not be necessarily adhering to or exacerbating my breast cancer, right? Well, they definitely would have figured it out if it was affecting men. Right.

They definitely would be like, oh, my God, well, if this is affecting men, like, it's so, it's infuriating. It's infuriating listening to that. But I do think that's why I am so happy we're talking about it. It's great. And we really hope to change hearts and minds and public policy because, you know, like there are other other statistics like 80% of autoimmune diseases affect women. And I don't, you were an athlete in college, ACL surgeries, more women get them than men. And they've now thought that the rehab that they have needs to be different than, because all the research has been on men and ACLs and not on women athletes or just women in general in ACL. Here's the other one that really bugs me. Tell me, Katie. Sorry, and then we'll move on to something happier. But I am really excited about this.

Well, let me tell you the statistic really quickly, but two out of three people with Alzheimer's are female. And yet only 12% of research dollars goes specifically to female Alzheimer's, which is crazy. And the reason why your hormones, these chemical messengers that really are responsible for your whole body's health, you know, have a big role in all of this. Like, what role is estrogen or lack thereof playing in Alzheimer's? In autoimmune diseases, as I said, 80% happen to women. And so I'm really excited about this because I've read about it. I'm sure you have in a million different places. But I don't think anyone has really connected the dots.

So I'm working with Don Porter, who is an Emmy-winning lawyer-turned-documentary filmmaker, and Esther Deere, who's an Emmy winning director. And we are trying to kind of like show the past, present and the potential for the future if our aperture on women's health changes. And, you know, only half of medical schools even teach courses in women's health. And I was reading about crash test dummies because I think this is so emblematic of the problem. for so long crash test dummies were men. And they realized that more women were injured and head-on collisions. And so they finally have female crash test dummies. But I was reading about it. And they're only required to be used in testing by 2028, which is just so insane. And I just think that it just shows the tentacles of, of, of, what a patriarchal system leads to and how it touches so many different aspects of our lives.

But, you know, I just think that this documentary is going to open a lot of eyes and put the pieces together for people. And there are a lot of green shoots. You know, we don't want it to all be gloom and doom. There's a lot happening in the space that is really exciting. I think we need to get more venture capital in women. health and startups, et cetera. So I'm just really excited about the project and we're, it's going to be great. It is incredible what you're doing. And I think it needs to be talked about also because there are people who are ignorant even when you say like women are not equal to men to this day.

And people will say, well, what are you talking about? Like that's not. And you're like, listen to what you just said. we are an afterthought. We are second-class citizens to men. They are used as the option for every single decision that has been made in this country. And then it's like, oh, and then we'll throw women in there. Or, oh, we'll eventually get to that. And so, but we are so different than men. Like you just said, they think, they think of us of just like a man with boobs. It's like, no, no, no. Do you have a, there's uterus and this. And that, like, there's so much that we have that we need more information on that we haven't had. And we're not privy to this information. And until, probably women start to be like, we demand this. Why would they change anything? It's all in their favor.

Right. And it's exciting that more women are going to medical school than men. But I think this deeply entrenched sexism has a long tail, you know? And this cultural conditioning, which I talked about, it just takes a long time to unravel. And, you know, I think I do see it changing, but we're hoping to give that change a little gasoline. And to make people, we want to, I mean, some of it is funny and crazy how, you know, women have been treated by doctors for so long. So we don't want it to be, as I said, all gloom and doom. And we want it to be hopeful and we wanted to be fun and entertaining. And we also want to make people mad. and say, you know what, this isn't right.

We're not going to put up with this. We demand change. Well, you pissed me off. I'm over here literally like, I'm pissed off. I'm infuriated. And I just want to play that clip over and over and over until everyone finally agrees. Like, yeah, maybe, maybe. You're right.

Maybe you are. Like, we need, we need change. And I love that you're talking about that. I'm excited for this project for you and for women. And it's needed. So thank you for doing that. You are now an independent journalist. You're no longer working with a major network.

What has that shift been like for you? Well, you know, I don't have anyone sort of over my shoulder saying this is what I need to do. I feel that when I see something, I can say something as they say, you know. And I think that this is a time where there's so much misinformation and disinformation. and there are so many people who are getting their news and information from a self-constructed ecosystem and echo chamber that, you know, I hope that people who have watched me since they were in second grade see me as somebody who is a straight shooter, somebody they can trust, somebody who as painful as it can be can call out, you know, speak truth to

powers, they say, and call out when I think things are really wrong with what's happening in our country and what our leadership is doing. And, you know, but also call out when I think, you know, kind of across the spectrum, things aren't right. So it's been incredibly liberating. I think your career has been such a testament to someone who has been, you know, you persevered, you prevailed in the face of a lot of adversity. You have rolled with the punches. You have been someone who has really made a name for yourself. And although you in moments had to, yes, conform slightly to what a network was saying, you really

have found your voice in all of that. And I think as a woman who loves to interview women, that's why I was so excited to have you on today because I think there are so many women who listen again in different fields than us, but who are looking for people like yourself to hear from that it's like it's not easy. It's going to be challenging. But we are sitting in a situation that hopefully is going to be a little bit better. So our next generation that we bring up also has a better time, just like you said, like the madmen days. Like things have. have gotten better since then. And we do have to look at some of the positive. And so I just so appreciate you talking through the personal and the work and all of it today because you're such an inspiration to so many people. And you're so wise and you've gone through so much. And like, thank you for sharing the vulnerable sides and just going down this long journey with me. I was like, I think we could have talked for 10 hours. The cameras are going to shut off because they're like ladies. But no, seriously, thank you, Katie, for your time and everything.

talking to you and I think, you know, I think it's hard. I think there are a lot of challenges. And I do still think it's it's still hard for for women who have careers and want to start families. And I still think the division of labor between men and women is still not equal. And again, I think it's that cultural conditioning that we just need to really, we're working on it. But I also think, you know, I feel really lucky because I found a career that I have loved so much. And that is really the crux of it for me. Like, how can I keep doing what I love to do? Or how can I use it in service of others, not to sound too cheesy, but like with my cancer work? And, you know, and for all the technological changes that we bemoaned. and social media and there are a lot of negatives to it, let's face it. Like, it has opened up a world for me that has allowed me to continue to do what I love.

And I'm so grateful for that, you know. So I wish for everyone listening or watching that they find this thing, that they enjoy, that they, that gives them purpose. And like you have, you know. And that's such a gift. And I think that if you focus on like, what is it that I love? What am I good at? What do I want to do? How can I contribute?

That you'll figure out all the other things that are happening and a way to continue to do what you love. And seeing. Katie Couric. Thank you for coming on Caller Daddy. We have to end on that. Boom. And good nights. Katie, thank you.

You're welcome. That was so fun.