Call Her Daddy - Michelle Obama: We Still Go High

Episode Date: January 21, 2026

Join Alex in the studio for a conversation with Former First Lady Michelle Obama! Alex and Michelle discuss the biggest roadblocks women face in today’s world and how to confront major issues like misogyny, double standards and objectification. Michelle shares her experiences from her time as First Lady and how those helped inspire her new book, The Look, as well as her honest take on what it would take to finally get a woman in the White House. Enjoy! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Michelle Obama, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Hey, Alex. Look at here. Call Her Daddy, I'm here. You don't even know. Cool set, too. Thank you. It is beyond an honor to be sitting with you today. How are you doing? I'm doing good. I mean, I'm personally good, individually good, feeling whole. But, you know, the world feels a little nutty.

And so there's, you know, that piece of it seeps in in ways. But I'm happy to be here. I'm happy you're here. Talk to me about your outfit. How did you pick it? My outfit, this is a Meredith Coupe original. And as we were thinking about promotions for the tour, there is a picture that a lot of people have been showing of me at Princeton.

and Meredith Coupe had the idea of updating this is the updated version It's on one of the first pages I remember when I looked at it. And when she brought it to me, I was like, you are so, look at this. I mean, it's a redo.

It's the next version. Oh, that's so good. My campus look, 2.0. Meredith. 5.0. Yeah, yeah. So we were like, this is the perfect place to do it with Alex.

I love it. So. Okay. I am going skiing soon and I heard that you are also a skier. I love skiing, but I'm kind of putting up my ski boots. You're done. I just feel like I am just one fall away, you know, because I am like a crazy skier. Like I can't ski a little bit.

I'm like skiing all day. Oh, you're going black diamond. I go black. Well, I go black. I don't go double black. Blacks and Blues. Are we doing moguls? No.

No, not yet. But when I ski, I'm still the former first lady with security. So I have sort of a ski motorcade. So there. Wait, I'm trying to picture myself. You can't tell, right? You can't? No, because the agents are, they're blending in.

You know, some are snowboarders and some are, but they're usually in the front and the back, right? so that no errant person just clobbers me, you know. So I don't really know what goes on behind me when I'm skiing. I just know we make it down. And I usually ski with an instructor. I ski an Aspen. Vance is my ski husband and I miss him dearly. Vance.

I've skied with Vance for 10 years and I hope he hears this. I love him. I miss him. I haven't skied in two years. But we ski, we made it a mother-daughter trip. every president's day weekend for the last 10 years. There are a bunch of mothers and daughters. We've all raised our kids together.

And we take the long weekend, go to Aspen and ski. So yeah. But you're done. I'm just worried that, you know, like I usually have one fall. You don't need an injury. You don't need to be in a boot. And then I can't do anything else. And we need you to do other things.

Anyway, so we need you. Okay, well, good to know. I was just wondering like hobbies. I'm a skier. I'm the similar way though, like as I continue to get older, I'm like, I don't want to be hurt from this. I want to enjoy myself, but I'm so competitive. This is the thing. I bet. What do you, are you black diamonds? I'm trying to go black diamonds. I'll start on a blue just to like feel something. And then you start feeling it. And then you're just like, yeah, yeah, no, let's do that black run. Let's do it. Or you do it once. And then you're like, let's do it once. And then you're like, let's do it. And it's like, no, it's after lunch. You just ate a lot. I always.

have one run too many. It is the one run where I say, I am done after this run. And then right in the middle of the end of the run, like, I'm not stopping. Like, that foot's not. You're getting lazy. Getting lazy. And then the form goes. Form goes. And then when I fall, you know, the looks on everyone's faces. It's like everybody has a heart attack. Yeah, I didn't even think about that. Like, you kind of have also have to worry about all these other people, like you said, everyone's behind you in front of you watching out for you. So if you're falling, feel and do, do they feel responsible? And it's a, sometimes you want to fall and, like, have no one's seat. You don't have that. No,

everybody's there. Ski patrol, doctors, you know, men with guns. It's like, I'm good, guys. Oh, my God. Get up from there. Okay, well, good to know. I just was interested in, you know, hobbies. I know you knit. I knit. I haven't been knitting lately because I've been reading a lot and reading and prep for our podcast. I'm reading people's books. So, And I still like books. So I don't do audio. And if you're holding a book, you can't knit. So I'm really reading a lot right now.

So I haven't knitted as much. But it's still there. It's in me. I have been trying to read more as well. I think just especially with the uptick in social media and the usage and everything, I just feel so uninspired. And so reading has allowed me to tap back into parts of myself that I do miss when I was in, education, right? And when you're in school, you're like taking it for granted. But then when you

leave, you're like, wow, what a, what a privilege. It was. Okay. So when I was preparing for this interview, I realized that there were kind of two ways I could go about it. Option one would be more OG call her daddy days. You know, talk some relationships. Try to ask you a couple questions about what Barack Obama wants to get reports on. You said, what? You're like, it's her show. I don't know. It's like, well, we just talking.

Right. So, you know, relationships and sex, which again, you're right, it would go viral. And poor Brock would be like, why? Literally have everything I've done. Why? But then there's the other side of this show. Yeah. Which is option two, which is hard but important conversations that are relevant.

to young women and girls all around the world. And so as juicy, as option one, would be. Or not. Or not. Actually, fair. I mean, it could have been like, that's that. I'm like, oh, right, fair. I just thought about it. I'm like, you sitting here today as one of the most influential and powerful women in the world, it would be too great of an opportunity not to have you impart your wisdom on the next generation who is watching and listening today. So we're going with option two. So I think we're going, unless you want to go option one. She's like, no, I think with that setup.

Yeah. You're right. Let's go with option two. And to anyone watching, you can all take a deep breath. This is not going to be about politics today. This is going to be about women. Yeah. Which I love talking about here on Call Her Daddy.

So, Michelle, are you ready? I am ready, Alex. Okay. So you recently released your book, The Look, Congratulations. Thank you. Thanks so much. Beautiful. And on the surface, it presents like a fashion book, right? But it's so much more than that.

It is about your values, uplifting women, building confidence. And we're going to get into all of it today. But first, I kind of want to set the scene of how we even got here. You have talked a lot about how we live in a world where a woman's appearance and our bodies are overly scrutinized. objectified. I'm going to quote you. You said, it is the habit of the culture of the world to put women in their place by attacking their physical being. Even after you went to Princeton and Harvard Law School, you were in the White House doing things like combating child obesity and advocating for girls' education. The haters still chose to focus on your arms and your hair. What was that

experience like for you and how did you navigate it day to day and not let it distract you? Yeah. Yeah. I think it became sort of the shock of the reality of that. I felt in the first year of campaigning. You know, when Barack announced I was hesitant, but once I was on board, I was on board, and I knew that I needed to be out there campaigning and introducing the world, not just to him, but to us. As the first potential black president and black family, we understood that there might be hesitations, misconceptions, people who, you know, weren't exposed to a broad diversity of people.

And so we knew that it was important for both of us to be out there, telling our story, helping people understand our values, what we cared about, how we were raised, who our parents were. To me, all of those stories are what connect us. So that's what I'm out there doing. You know, I'm in Iowa. You know, it starts out that I'm in people's backyards and, you know, in church basements. I mean, it starts out small because who are the Obamas? I mean, who were used to, right?

So it wasn't like people were climbing the walls. I mean, Hillary Clinton was the favorite. in Iowa, Barack was a distant fourth, but we worked hard at the grassroots and understood that we'd have to meet people in their homes and in their communities. And so I was kind of like not even a blip on the screen. So I was out there freely talking. And I never had a written speech. I just would usually talk from my heart and talk about us. And so slowly things grew and grew. And I wasn't in a backyard anymore, but I was in a school auditorium and it wasn't 10 people. It was 5,000 people.

And I think everyone was kind of shocked by how I was connecting in that way. But I always felt like this is who we are as Americans, you know? I mean, one of the best experiences I had in my life was leaving the south side of Chicago and going into rural America and understanding that we're, the same people, you know? It's like the food we eat, the things we care about, the way my dad loved his family, the pride he had in his family, you know, the working class nature, his work ethic. People would do that. They just shake their heads and nod. And what might have been, I'm not sure about you, became a, I know you, right? And that was the experience I was having.

But as my popularity rose, I was being covered more, right? And so the press enters the scene and there are now reports, right? And the first thing, after all this great conversation and connection, the top of the article would be she was wearing. You know, not my education, not my, you know, not my professional career, but it started with appearance. And it got worse as we got better. So I understood it as campaign tactics, right? I could separate it out and go, well, this, yeah, this is politics, right? It's like, what better way to beat a moving engine is to try and slow it down?

And so with women, what do we do with women? We start sort of talking about their strength. And there, so then I became, I was angry, not passionate. I was a misogynist. I wasn't joking about my husband and humanizing him, right? I wasn't athletic. I was scarily muscular, right? So it was a rolling thing.

And I attributed totally to politics. And I didn't write it off to what people really thought, because I had months and months of understanding that the people in those auditoriums and in those school buildings and at those speeches, they understood who I was, if that makes sense. It does make sense. And I think that's a great way to look at it, right? Because you're able to compartmentalize essentially that this is the name of the game. This is how it goes. But it still doesn't mean that it's sexist, right? They're attacking you. for your looks and they're not doing that to a man. They weren't doing that to my husband, right? They weren't describing him physically. And he was out there more than I was.

So I was like, okay, well, this is where it comes from. It's like, wow, whoever is doing this, when it comes to how we put women in their place, it's like, okay, there wasn't common about the substance that I was saying. It was like, why did she wear this? And was that appropriate? And what does this mean? and it's all about how we look. And the more you pay attention to that, you see it not just happen to me,

but even having other female candidates, other wives, other, you know, other celebrities, other people in the public eye. So I tried not to take it personally and understand that this was a game. And I definitely didn't want to assume that this is what America thought. like being able to separate out what is politics and media and where people's hearts are. And I think sometimes we struggle because the game is still happening. You know, we're still dividing each other up when my truth was that no one ever in my face in any community was unwelcoming or rigid or closed minded, right? not in person, right?

It was all about what was being fed. So I didn't want that to, I didn't want that to color my heart towards this country. Even you speaking, right, we're talking about objectification because we as women experience that every day. And then you're dealing with it on the world stage. I also love it because you have a pattern of challenging norms. And you refuse to shrink or to conform to the. patriarchy, which I love. And in your book, you talk about learning that, quote, if you can't beat them, work their fascination to your advantage. It's one of my favorite quotes, truly, because it's so

relatable. Like, from a very young age as women, we learn how to shape shift essentially. And we constantly have to. We have to. It's unavoidable, right? Biologically. To survive. Just to survive. But that when you're you're talking about leaning into the fascination. Can you talk to me about how you personally learned to navigate it and how did you know, Michelle, when to lean in and when to pull back? That's a good question. I think, again, on the campaign trail, and as in those first months of being in office, you know, you just, you see what's written and you see the, you know, you look up and there was a whole website, Ms. O, that, you know, focused on. And this was all, it's, this was complimentary.

It was exciting. I could see the fun of it, right? I get it, right? But I kind of thought that I understood that fashion and appearance for women is so powerful that if I spent too much time talking about it, maybe nobody would hear anything else I'd have to say. And I came in wanting to say so much and do so much substantively. I knew what I wanted to do going in. And it was interesting. I'd always get the question leading up to the campaign, well, you know, how did, what do you want to accomplish as first lady?

And my first answer was, first of all, I want to make sure my kids are whole. So me being a good mother in this, me and Barack being good parents in this, like it didn't mean that we weren't going to work hard, but if you want to know what my priority was, like, a lot of parents is making sure that my kids weren't destroyed by this thing we're doing, that they ended up whole. And I thought by saying that, that that wasn't controversial. It was just like, like, we have kids. And they've got to go to school. They have security. And so I'm going to have to focus on that, just like all of us as women mothers do. We're multitasking. And we're doing it all the time and I was doing it before I landed there. But it was always interesting and people would be like,

well, how do you know what to do in this role? And to me, it was clear that, oh my God, you, you don't, you don't know anything about what I did before I came here. Like, you don't, like, you know, and you don't want to, but I was like, well, I went to Princeton and Harvard. I mean, I practiced law. I was an assistant to the mayor in Chicago. I ran a nonprofit of 501C3. I've been doing this. I was a vice president for community relations at the University of Chicago hospitals. I was a dean of students. I was like, oh, you guys, all of that just disappeared in the course of this whole election.

And you now see me as just Barack Obama's wife. So that made me say, what, that quickly, my shoes become the most important thing about me. Right. And again, not unique to me. It can happen to the best of us. So I shied away from fashion leading the conversation, but I knew I couldn't, I didn't completely control it. So let's lean in. Let's lean in with what we do. Let's make sure that we have a plan and a strategy in place for how fashion, just like everything we did in the White House would have meaning and impact. That's makes so much sense because again in the book you're talking about the now the behind the scenes

of the designers you were choosing and people that you were choosing to work with was so meticulous on your end but speaking about it you can now speak about it but at the time I understand it's like I cannot be reduced to the dress and to the shoe and to the hair and the whole thing I want people to hear what I'm actually saying I have a question because I think this is pretty applicable to my audience, because it's tough for women, obviously, when we're even talking about fashion. A perfect example. A young woman is going for a job interview. And she gets the lowdown, oh, this boss is a full misogynistic pig. So she wears the dress instead of the pants because she is so acutely aware, and maybe it's subconscious, that if she, she leans into her

conventionally feminine aura, then she probably will have a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of better chance at getting the job. But is that okay? Or are we abandoning ourselves and are we compromising ourselves? Like, what do we do? You know, look, life is full of compromises, just period, right? I mean, what I always say is that you've got to pick and choose your battles. We all do. And the personal question becomes, where are you in life? Right. If you're a young woman that needs a job to pay off her loans and to, and it's your first job and you know, you have less leverage than I do as the former first lady to wear what you want and have this empowerment and say what you want to do. Like my advice to young girls is, first of all,

make sure you can pay your rent, you know, and don't make decisions so rashly when you don't have the leverage to keep yourself safe, right? But in the midst of that, you don't want to compromise yourself so much that you lose yourself and you are not safe, right? So you may wear the dress because it's professional and gives you an edge, but then you want to be very careful of who this person is that you're now working for, you know, and whether, so now you have to be smart. It's, it has less to do with what you're wearing, but who is that person? And do you trust him? And can you trust him? You, you know, women don't have to dress a certain way to lead on somebody who has misogynistic, you know, a lot of times we blame ourselves and say, well, if I, you know,

look, you leaned in because you wore that dress and you, you know, but, but it is a tricky balance because, you know, if you're in a professional setting and wearing a dress or a certain, if that is the standard, then you are a little, you know, you do have to be thoughtful. So we have to think a lot more. I mean, it's just, this is also what I'm saying in the book, right? I mean, to strike that balance and to be thoughtful about what messages we're sending, giving, receiving. Men don't do that. My husband wasn't doing that. Same suit. Put on blue suit, white shirt, different tie, you know. I mean, we're on a trip where there's 8,000 things happening

in one day. You know, we're on a safari and then we're at a meeting. And then, you know, even the way they structured the day, it's like, this is a man's schedule, you know. And all he has to do is take off his tie. Unbutting the top, top, take his jacket off. Now he's casual. Now he can talk to kids. Now he's at a meeting at the UN, throws that jacket back on. And I'm following around. And it's like, I get heels and flats and cobblestones and sweaters and blazers and blazers and tops and your skirts that are too short. And now you can't stoop. That's me, but that's all of us, right? We, we, we, so many, there's so much work that I think we, we, we do it so easily as women. It is just a part of waking up. And it is a lot of work. And I want us all to start owning

that it is a lot of work and that it does take strategy because, you know, and for men to pretend like it doesn't, that this isn't part of the game, you know. And if we don't name it, you know, if we keep trying to pretend like, no, I just woke up like this, you know, I want you to know how much more. I want my, I want my husband. I made sure he understood me traveling with you and you traveling. Different, different burden, dude. Different burden.

It's so refreshing because, again, I've seen, obviously, critics online being like, oh, my gosh, this is just, this isn't for the time. need to hear about the nice dresses you're wearing and I'm like, that's the complete, that's, you're actually feeding into why she had to write the book because that's the exact point that you're still just seeing it at surface level. Well, it takes people to read the book, right? And this is what politics are, right? I mean, you know, I've been in the political world. I am affiliated. I understand it. You know, it's like, you don't know me, right? So you see the book. Anybody who's known me, my career, my life, the other books I ever, which is why this book is the third book,

not the first book, because I was like, yeah, talking about fashion, you know, you got to lay a foundation for it. You got to ease them in. Got to ease them in. But it's also, like, if you know me, you know, I'm just not that person. I'm not the person that's just going to talk about some dresses, right? No, you're not, Michelle. It's got to have a meaning behind it.

So what I would just say to people is pick it up and read it first. That's all, as opposed to reading a review about it or reading a review of somebody who would never like me, who has already as a predisposed opinion, which exist in this country. This is really a book about self-determination, who we are as women. how it's about the team of people that help us and it's an industry and a business and it's a billion dollar business and what stylists and makeup artists do is not just this fun little thing you know that many of us don't have the time the luxury to do it but this expectation is still there so we if we don't talk about if we don't have to talk about fashion then let's make it

irrelevant, then why are their dress codes and why are people commenting about people's hair? Why, why are we doing any of it? You know, it puts us in a trap in a way, but it can also be fun. With, I know, it's like such a good point. It's like it can have such a fun freedom to it, but we would be remiss to not acknowledge everything that you've said in this book. So brilliantly of just like, yes, but guys, we have to acknowledge that when, you're, you know, women just have such a different standard that we're held to. And I appreciate you acknowledging that yes, there is a different level of privilege as the two of us sitting here right now and the outfit choices that we're making, yes, we can decide to send a message to what we're wearing. But it,

a lot of times right now in our position, we are not being held to, well, you wore that so you're not going to get the job now. But if you rewound to our lives, like when I was a younger girl, I did dress a specific way because I knew I was in a male dominated industry and I knew I would have a better time if I wore a tighter shirt because the guy would maybe give me more attention. What I did with that, though, is so important. And I appreciate you acknowledging that. It's like, don't lose yourself to the game of the misogyny that we all get wrapped into. And I want to talk about social media with you because this plays into it where that's the newest arena where women are being objectified. And I emphasize newest. We've been objectified forever since day one. But this is new.

You've talked about how women and girls are demeaned, devalued and disrespected, especially online now. And we have studies to back it up, right? Mental health issues, body image issues, self-esteem issues. One really sad reality of this is that it's not just men tearing women down. This is women. It's more often women tearing each other down. And that's even more painful.

Yeah. Because it's sadly, I hate to say it, we expect it for men. And so it hurts that much more when it is another woman doing it to another woman. How did you deal when women came at you and do you have advice for women who are victims of, you know, being unfairly targeted? I mean, it's, you know, surprisingly, yeah, it would hurt more coming from a woman. because it's like, wow, you know, you know what we're going through. But here's what helps me. And it doesn't, you know, it takes time, maturity to kind of come to peace with this.

But in order to keep myself sane in the midst of this on all levels, I just try to wonder what's going on in the mind of the person who can go there. Right. And when I think about women attacking women, it is always rooted in the insecurity and lack of self-esteem that it is rampant in our culture. Like we're set up to feel badly about ourselves, right? And then to turn against ourselves. and then to turn on each other.

It's a doggie dog world out there. So I try to humanize my victimizer and say, something happened to you. Something is, you know, something is tearing away, and it doesn't have to do with me, right? I might have been the closest, easiest target for you at the time. But let me, so that I can stay sane and wake up, and show up well with people.

Because as first lady, that's ultimately my job. I mean, I couldn't let something break me to the point where I got so cynical and despondent about the whole of this country. Like, to me, it's like it was, it's my job to believe in America, to believe in our utter deep goodness, because that is true. That is the, you know, and when people go astray, it's. It's because of something that happened to them, a brokenness. And that helps me right size my feelings. I agree with you because I think especially with therapy and, you know, we have psychology, right?

We know through psychology that women that are attacking other women, it's like there is an insecurity, there is a pain. And a lot of times, I think online especially, the conversation does stop there, though, of, oh, she's just jealous or she's insecure, she's going through something. I mean, I think the term mean girl, for the millennial and Gen Z generation, it has been so present in their vernacular. It is at the forefront of the way that they speak and they look at each other. She's a mean girl. She's a mean girl. She's a mean girl.

I guess my question, though, to you would be, if we know this, if these people are in pain, then how do we solve this issue? Like, how can the women who are bullying and abusing redirect that anger and that insecurity, not onto other women, but to where? Yeah, yeah. One of the reasons why I focus so much of my energy in the White House in my post-White House years on just working on issues of women and girls and their empowerment and self-esteem. You know, we're not focused on that strategically or politically when we, you know, we haven't had conversations in a long just about education and the education system or what kind of after school opportunities are there

for kids. I mean, you know, we as a society aren't talking about a lot these days about how we are nurturing and protecting our kids. So now everybody is taking it on individually, right? So what do I do with my girls? I'm trying to make sure that they feel seen in their household. because they, you know, and I'm trying to sign them up for activities that make them feel strong and to build confidence. And, you know, I'm doing that for myself and I'm staying healthy. And, you know, but how do you deal with the problem systemically? Yeah, that's where government and taxpayers and people caring about one another and caring about our kids. It happens because we give wonderful places for kids, girls to land, you know. I think, you know, kids need to,

young girls need to be in groups, you know, Girl Scout groups and opportunities. They need to be able to play sports and they need to be able to, they need to have access to things that get them out of their loneliness and off of their phone and get their brains and bodies working, right? So it's a, I think it's just such a big, you know. I know. We could be here for weeks and days talking about this because you're right. It is such a systemic issue. I couldn't help but think, too, when you're talking about, you know, bring women together.

And I know how you talk a lot about your kitchen table girlfriends and how integral they have been to your life. And I think every woman can feel that when you have your girlfriends, like you say, you know, love Brock, but they're your. sanity. Those girls, we get each other. The flip side, though, is still living in this patriarchal society. It breeds competition between women because there is not enough room for all of us. So there's 90 people in the room and the three women are coming in. How can you not feel competitive? And then I think about you in this situation. It's like by society standard now, you are the friend to be jealous of, right? How have you worked through the competitive dynamics with girlfriends and tried to keep it not competitive? Well, some of it is like how you pick and choose, right? So in the light,

when I talked about the kitchen table, it's like you've got to be really smart and selective about who you let in, who you let stay in, and who you let out. You know, who, who would ready to follow the path that you want to go on, right? And that's, that's practice, right? One of the things that I say to my girls and to young girls, it's like, don't be afraid to make friends, you know, be open, stay open. And I always wanted my girls, no, what they were going through. It's like, try on new people and let them in because you're strong enough to deal with somebody who might disappoint you, because sometimes people disappoint you. And if they disappoint you in a way that's dangerous, let them out quickly, you know, slow ghost, get a move on.

And the more you practice it, the more you recognize it quicker, you know. And so for me, I think I choose well, first of all. And so it starts there. And again, that takes practice. You learn that over time. You learn yourself. And once my friends are in, in my journey, we're all going together, you know. I mean, it's just, it's not, it's never just my journey. It's like, you're coming, you know, let's do this, you know. I had to do that really proactively, it's first lady, because we lived in this bubble. And if I wasn't proactive about maintaining my relationships with my friends, everybody could

have easily slipped away. You didn't have my phone number. walk up to my door and just, girl, what's you up to? It's like, nope, you got to go through eight rounds of security, you know, hand in your social security card. You got to, you know, you get a, it's a whole to do. You know, it's like, hey. You're a high man in's friend, Michelle. I would understand. It's like, you know what, I give up. So, you know, it's a good point. So that's why I said, even making friends as First Lady, I didn't like write that off. I was like, I'm going to have to really extend myself for a new mother to be like, okay, Sasha's coming over for a sleepover. We're going to need to know your

Social Security number. There's going to be a sweep of your home. They're going to find out they're going to want to know about whether you have guns in the house or drugs. They won't take them from you, but they need to know. There will be men standing out. So what time do you want her to come by? They're like, I don't know anymore. So you, you know, that kind of helps you. It's like, okay, You ready? You ready? You ready? Let's go. So I, just for me, I just take my friends with me as much as possible.

So you're coming with me. We're doing, you know, we're doing boot camps, you know, once a quarter. We're going on trips. We're planning the mother-daughter ski trip. And a lot of times I would take the lead because you, you know, you can't schedule me. You know? No. So realizing those limitations.

And I think when you're all kind of, even if people aren't rising or doing the same thing, I found that if my friends feel like I see them and I'm like, I want you on my journey. And we're all going to enjoy this together. It's not me and you. I found that that's the way I've kept this sort of, am I the friend to be jealous of? like, we're all going up this mountain together. I mean, I think that my audience needs to hear that because I think it's very present right now. And a lot of people's lives, we've got a lot of, you know, 18 to 30, 40 year olds listening. And it's like, you're leaving maybe college. Did you get

the job? Who's moving? Who's got the boyfriend? Who's got the thing? And there's so much clouded competition because you think, oh, God, she got married first and I haven't yet, or she had the kid and I didn't yet. Well, because this is what we're doing is we're checking boxes, right? And social media kind of, you know, it exacerbates that because now you know what everybody is doing and everybody's only posting the good things that they're doing. The thing that I want the listeners to know young women is that the value of cultivating friendships is important. It's as important as important as the degree that you got in college.

It's as important as the job title and the salary or the dude you're trying to, you know, catch or the length of your veil on your wedding dress. Like that, all that stuff comes and goes. I don't even remember, I remember my wedding, you know, I have the pictures. It was a wonderful day. But my friendships, those relationships are important. And I just want, you know, in the advent of technology and social media, it's almost like we're telling people you're okay by yourself. All you need is your phone, some apps, and success. And what I'm saying is, no, you need friends.

And you have to work on that. That means you have to be a good friend. That means you have to put down your stuff and prioritize your friendships if you want to have them. Let's talk about that because there's so much pressure on women to present as perfect, right? And then get validated for it. And especially you just said on social media, but you think back in the day, two magazines come out a month. And it doesn't mean that there's not scrutinizing and comparing and everyone looks. looking at it, but it's endless now. It is 24, seven. Every day, all day. The Photoshop's an airbrush

and we're curating and we're carefully, you know, designing how we want people to think about us. Can you talk a little bit to perfection and how so many women and girls feel like they need to reach this unattainable goal? Yeah. I mean, I'm generationally kind of, that's, it's the experience that young women, girls are, you know, having now, it is foreign to me. I, you know, I didn't, my, I'm going to be 62. I'm an old lady. I'm like my grandmother, right? That's how I'm counting the days and going, you know what? When I thought my grandmother was old, she was my age, right? Stop, Michelle. No. But with as fast as things have changed, we are in the midst of one of the, a major industrial revolution. It was, it's like the creation of electricity,

right, the TV. Like, this is new, right? And I'm of the old guard, right? So I don't, I don't have the habit. I'm not hooked on it. Like, I'm still picking up a book. I'm still calling a friend, right? I don't even know why you would want to be lonely. Like, why are you alone? It's like, don't do that, you know. Sounds so good when you say it. Go to the coffee shop, you know, don't order the thing in. Just get out, right? Go to the gym, you know, just because you can be by yourself.

Don't do it. So that it is foreign to me the pressure that you guys feel. But I get it. I get it. What I want to tell people young women is get off the phone. I really do. It's like it's a habit. It's not a need.

And I'm not saying get rid of it. I'm just saying you've got to get off of the phone and start investing in your in real life stuff and experiences. But can we go as far to say like it's an addiction? Yes. Think about this. It's intended to be an addiction. No generation prior to. to this had four-year-olds being addicted to something, five-year-olds, six-year-olds,

10-year-olds, we have addiction right now that we cannot stop. I am hoping, Alex, that the learning curve is going to be quick, right? Because we didn't know, right? This is so new, you know? And now we're starting to get the statistics in on depression. This is real. It's, the dip and the rise in depression is directly connected and linked to the creation and rise of social media. And I'm hoping that the society parents will start understanding that this isn't just a free for all thing.

They're great things about it. But there are a lot of problems with it. So we have to stop. We have to start regulating. Well, we have to start regulating also because I've, you know, I've interfaced with some young kids and I'll be like, why? do you want to have this phone over this phone? Or why do you not want to take your phone and put it away for a while?

And they're like, because if I don't see it, then I go to school tomorrow. And I am the only person in the class that is not aware of what the entire rest of the class was talking about. So then there's like a bullying element and there's an alienization that's happening where you're like, I don't want to be the only kid

that's not clued in and tapped in. So then it cannot be one kid trying to lead the pack. And it can't be. Right. And that's some of the experts have said it. Jonathan Haidt, Scott Galloway. A lot of people who've written books about it have said that it would be a lot better if parents and communities made these decisions together, right?

So that you, you know, but we're still a long way from that. We're still figuring that out. In the meantime, I don't know that I have a, my message is the old school message of no one is perfect. That stuff isn't real. It's not real at all. It is just not real at all. And so why I write this book and try to talk openly is that if people are listening to me

and I'm saying that, look, this face, it takes work to do. And I'm not trying to have a full face every day. You know, I wear makeup when I'm going to be on TV, right? No one is living these great lives. It's just I know that because I live a really great life and it's not always perfect. It's a message that I don't know lands because it's rooted in what I know is the truth. And all I can say is how do I know because I know? And so don't feed into it.

Don't feed into it because and I can also say I know a lot of these people that you're looking at. I know a lot of these celebrities. Girl same. Right. Trust us. Right. It's like. It's not exactly what it seems.

And this is work. They're getting paid for it. Right. And I think something. that you, you know, talking about even just like there needs to be actual change and we need to organizationally come together. It is similar to what we're talking about with women and change, right? And I think especially with social media, the amplification of aging and the conversation about aging around women, there are billion dollar brands that are pushing anti-aging,

aka saying as a woman gets older, it is a bad thing to age. Meanwhile, it is a privilege to age, but we have been warped to believe. Put this cream on or inject this thing into your face. And then you will be deemed more worthy to society. In your book, you talk about aging, right? And embracing new seasons of life rather than freaking out over, you know, a gray hair or a wrinkle. But how do we as a society fight this demonization of aging women? How do we as a society fight this demonization of aging women. Well, I always say that we just, you know, men get older and wiser and esteemed, right? Women, we just get old, right?

Yeah, it's crazy. But the truth is that, like, I, my 60s are the best time of my life. That's all, it's the canary in the coal mine. I'm just telling you. ladies, girls, like, it gets better and better and better, you know. Yeah, the youth and your skinny waist when you're 20, yeah, but you have no money. You don't know what to do with it. I mean, it's like, man, it's, and it's hard, you know, you're confused all your 20s and 30s. And I'm just telling people, you're right, yes, it's confusing and it feels painful. But it's, it gets better.

And so for me, I'm also, you know, what we don't do is celebrate the wisdom of older women, right? I mean, there's so much that older women know for sure. Like, it's like, we were there. I got the answer. I can really, like, I know. I did it, right? I'm not saying I know because I'm smarter. I just tried all that.

I failed. That doesn't, you know, you can. literally go, that's not going to work for you. Doesn't mean you're not going to try it, but when it doesn't, like, I can tell you don't feel badly that you failed because it wasn't ever going to work. And there was only one way to learn that is that you did it and it's okay that you did. Like there's so much we have to offer, but what do we do? We, instead of, you know, podcast and blogs and social media being run.

by really wise women who actually have facts, right? It's a bunch of kids who are like, you don't know. I know you don't know. I mean, like, I love a parenting blog for sure, you know, when it comes to the best bottle and the new contraptions because that stuff is better. Yes. Like, I'm like, wow, I wish I had that stroller that you can just pop and close.

But, like, who do I want to listen to on, like, childhood behavior? stuff. I want to talk to a woman, a parent, not just woman. I want to see what your adult children look like. I just want to meet facts before I figure out whether I'm going to follow your theory. Because when you're young, you don't know. You're just living it. You're seeing if it's working. You're testing it. And so I think the social, you know, the social connection of young mothers or young parents struggling, that's a cool thing. But guess who has some real wisdom around? like I tried this and it failed. Like this really, but where are those bloggers?

Where are those conversations happening? And where are young women just coming to ask to say, well, let me, you know, sit down with my moms and my aunts? It's such a good point, Michelle. But then again, I think because of the competition and the misogyny and how warped our brains are, I see women in the comment section saying, aren't you too old to be doing that? Aren't you to be old to be doing this? And so, but again, it's all projection.

It's the fear of getting older. It's like how can the absence or the presence of wrinkles on my forehead dictate the, like, words that are coming out of my mouth and how much you actually respect them or don't respect them? And so aging for women, it's this fear when really, again, like you said, for men, it's like, we're washed up, they're wise. Yeah. It gives them integrity. Yeah.

We're irrelevant. And so there's this push and pull that I think at some point you're right. women have to look inward and start to say, why am I not tapping into this older generation who is looking down, being like, the hands out, we got you, girls. And I think those are great conversations for young women to have with one another, right? Because I think I haven't met an older woman that isn't like any, like you want to know, you're asking? Yes. Sit down. Let's talk. I don't want you to fail. I want you to be better than me because now I really am not competing. Like all that stuff that was going on, we learned it didn't help. It didn't. It just messed up a lot of stuff. So now,

you know, we can really look at that generate, at least I know I'm in that place. No, it's a great point. Like it's the favorite thing I have to do, which is impart something that I learned to somebody younger. That's why speaking of, you know, you have this wisdom. You have talked about the gender gap when it comes to confidence. As women, we are, you know, often doubted and underestimated by others and ourselves. We struggle with imposter syndrome while men walk around with what you call unearned confidence. As someone who has been such a symbol of strength for women around the world, when did you doubt yourself the most and how did you get through those periods? Wow. You know, your 20s and 30s are tough times, right? Because I always, I've learned or felt that women were less, or at least I was less likely to claim what I knew because I was always, there was always, maybe I don't know. And well, and I don't want to, I don't want to sound too pompous or let me not cut you off.

You know, we're more socialized to don't step on toes because then you're bossy. You know, there's also a little smackdown of it, you know. It's like, well, if you're a little too aggressive, now you're aggressive. You're not. So sometimes those labels happen and we get them. I mean, my own mother, I was, she was like, you're a bossy. I'm the bossy one, you know. It's like I felt like the bossy one my whole life.

And I know a lot of outspoken young girls who were labeled as the bossy ones in their family when they were probably the ones that like had good instincts and were organized and had opinions. And, you know, so that stuff is actually happening to us. It's not in our minds. Right. It's like self-doubt because you are young and you are figuring it out. And so the imposter syndrome, I, you know, in your book, I love how you talk about this. because you talk about the tension that we often face as women between wanting to be viewed

as both a woman of substance and a woman of style. And so, right? In other words, it's like you want to be respected for your brain and you also, you want to be cool. You want to have a career and you want to have a romantic relationship. You somehow managed multiple identities at the same time. You were an attorney and you were on the cover of Vogue. You were known as mom-in-chief and you were meeting with the leaders of foreign countries. How did you nurture all of those identities and stay whole?

Because this is so relevant to my audience right now. They're struggling to be multiple things at once and feel confident about it. What I've come to learn is that can you have it all? Yes, not at the same time. And I think that we beat ourselves up because here's what. There are a lot of women who are listening, a lot of women, period, who I will call 120 percenters. That means that just showing up means we're not just showing up. We're excelling because we've always had to do that.

To get a seat at the table, we have to be smarter and brighter. And we kind of do, because if you slip up, you know, you don't necessarily get a second chance or the benefit of the doubt. So we've been trained to do that. So now we're operating like that and trying to do it with every. everything that we're doing. And 120% plus 120% adds up to crazy. And a mental breakdown. Exactly. So one of the things I had to learn is that, like, a lot of times my 50% is good enough, but I have to first be okay with it. Right. So when it came to raising my kids and keeping my job when I felt the push of I don't know if I'm like am I there

for my kids like I want to like I had to stop breastfeeding and I had to do this and I had to go back but I like having the salary and being able to pay up down our student debt and why walk away from that what I realized was like okay I can't be driving hard at my job at this time my husband is in politics, he has three jobs. Somebody's got to take it down a notch. So I've learned to stay in the car, keep your foot on the gas, but just don't floor it all the time on all things. You don't, that doesn't mean you have to break. That didn't have to pull the car over and get out. It just means that there will be aspects of parts of those, yourself, that you can't go 120 percent. And then that means that we as women have to accept a little bit less from ourselves

than we're used to. And that takes, you have to just get used to that. And it's all in here, right? It's, it's all the internal message. Like, if you have a job, maybe you aren't going to be able to make homemade baby food, you know, and guess what? Like, I loved the jar face. Like, There was nothing better than that dinner. I was like, whoa. When they started needing real, real food, I was like, oh, curses. I got to cook. But that stage, you know, sweet potatoes.

I loved it. And I'd just go to the grocery store. I'd be like, look at mom, figure you're going to have a little beef here, a little carrot in a jar. I, you know, I mean. I love it. I love it. It's so real, though. So you have to be kind of okay with, that's not going to kill them.

Or maybe you can't breastfeed for a year because you can't. You don't like it. Your body isn't able to. You had to go back to work. Baby's going to be fine, you know. I mean, our parents didn't even breastfeed. I mean, there was a generation of women that were told, Simulak, here you go. I am a formula baby.

5-11. Brain's working just fine. Just a little. Just a little bit. Just a little bit. Wow. So, you know, we have to take some pressure off of ourselves. It's like, why are we trying to bounce back?

What's the bounce back? What's the, you're going to have a baby. Your whole body is twisted up. And then you want to be back at the gym doing solid core. Why? Why are we doing this to ourselves? And I think the comparison for women, when especially mothers, I've seen, again, because social media, it just is nonstop.

we don't know what everyone's going through. People are lying. Yes. They're lying. And so when you're saying you're popping the jar open and you put it on the plate, you're taking a picture of the plate, you're like, look at the feel I did. And you know, it's just like, let's not do that to each other. Let's be more honest about the struggle.

I try to do that, you know. And I am constantly telling young mothers like it's coming, right? You don't have to get off your career track and I don't even recommend it because, because kids grow up fast. And then they're gone. Like, you've sacrificed everything. And you know when they leave, they leave. They close the door and act like you never sacrificed.

They're like, I remember you. I don't need you anymore, right? So I'm like, you better have saved something for yourself so that when that period comes and they're ready to move on. And you're also not holding on longer because now what am I'm going to do? I devoted everything to you. And I need to, now I've got to fill my time. So I encourage people to hang in there and keep something for yourself throughout this process.

But that means you don't, maybe you're not going to be VP in five years. Like if you have in your mind that there's a tract and there's only one way to do it, that's what trips us up a lot of times. Like, I'm going to be partner by the time I'm 28. Hey, look, if you live until you're 80, 90, there's so much time. There's so much. And I tell people, look, I had to get off a track and take pay cuts and come back, sacrifice, because my husband was president, you know. Yeah. And that was kind of a, you know, so. But in the midst of that, I still manage to be a lawyer, run a nonprofit. I can run down the list, be an author.

You know, I raise really sane kids who, you know, aren't perfect, but they're really, really good. So there is time, but we have to give ourselves a lot more grace in the process. That's what I've learned. Giving myself grace, it's like, yeah, I'm not. I'm not getting it all right. And then we as women have to be, we have to support each other. We just really have to stop being a part of the fantasy, you know.

It's not serving us. It's not true, you know. And it's okay to not be happy sometimes. Like, that's also a thing. You, you know, like not being perfectly satisfied and in the, exact place that you want. Every part of your life, is that's what life is. Yeah, that's what life is. And I love how you said, like, but I understand that society makes women feel like they have to be perfect. That's right. It's very uncomfortable at first. When you're like, I'm not succeeding and I'm

not doing the best. Like, it reminds me in your memoir how you would tell your girls to always start dinner even if your husband hadn't come home yet because I didn't want them to ever believe that life began when the man of the house arrived home. We didn't wait for dad. It was his job to now catch up with us. I think society puts such a pressure on women to prioritize finding a man over finding a career and a life that they love. As women, I would love your wisdom and advice of like, how do we prioritize finding fulfillment within ourselves first before finding fulfillment in a marriage or a partnership. I think it starts with the subliminal messages that we send our girls.

And I'm really, I have two beautiful daughters. And you know, you find yourself slipping up and going, are you dating anyone? And it's like, let me not make that the first question or the second question or a question at all. Like, let me, you know, because I hear it being asked. You run out of stuff to say to a young girl. It's like you're dating anyone. You know, it's like I just, in our girl group, when it comes up and we do that, I try to talk to my mom friends about it and what that's doing.

What are our own insecurities as mothers, like that we're like, well, you seem happy and you're on a track, but do you have a boyfriend? Like, that, you know. So bad. It's just a, it's a, when you break it down like that, it's like those are the little things that no matter what. And then despite what your parents say, it's just a social pressure. You see everybody getting married. So I think we have to be mindful of the way we craft questions to our, not just our daughters, but our sons, how we talk about what happiness is.

and we have to work hard to separate our fears and insecurities as parents. We have to separate that from our kids, right? Because we're still carrying these old images. We are still programmed. We are still of a generation where that's what women did. We did go to college. We were different. There was the expectation that you went to college.

We all got our degrees. But everybody started getting their MRS, as they called it, out of college. and that was also a part of it. And you'd have a career, but you'd do it until you got pregnant. You know, so we have to admit that women of my generation, there was a, there was a path. And we carry that with us. And we imprint that onto our kids as like, this is the way that I know that you'll be happy so I can stop worrying about you.

And I can know that you'll have a good life. It's such a good point of like, you know, putting the former beliefs and system onto the new generations. Because like you even think about it. Like, why do women have miss, misses, and then miss? And men never change from mister. They are. You're just, you're always you. Once again, you don't have to evolve.

See, we're even evolving. What do I call myself? We're changing up here for yourself. You know, it's like I went through that too when I got married. I was like, okay, I'm going to meet Michelle. Robinson Obama. Right? And I did that.

I was in a real career. And I felt like this is a lot of name. It feels like a little silly. Michelle Robinson Obama. Hello. I did that for like a month. And I was like, okay, that's, I'm tired. You know?

I got to write that down. That's long three syllables for three names. Too much. It's too much. So I was like, okay, let me pick one. And I stuck with Obama because. I had a brother. I didn't come from a family that my father was like,

carry their name. It was like it's a name. And I was like Obama's really strange name. So let's all just be this strange name together. You know, let's just all take it on. It's a good name. I'll take it.

I'll take it. But that was the thought. It's like, let me just pick. But he didn't, he wasn't going through this. He wasn't changing his license and his social security number. And, you know, he, you know, So, yeah, another way that we evolve. And it's another way to send a subliminal message that it is up to us to do the evolving.

It is. And I love how you've spoken about society's expectations we're discussing, obviously, of women to stay nice and to stay passive and small. And how hard it is if you are a driven, ambitious woman trying to make a big impact. When we talk about dating for my audience, so many women. I think then if they are going against the societal norms and they're like, okay, I'm going to focus on myself. I'm going to pour into myself. I'm going to focus on being an individual. I don't need a man. I want a man, but I don't need a man. Then it brings the whole caliber of, oh, God, then you have to potentially shrink yourself when you do find a man because you're so sure of yourself and that is terrifying for most men.

And so they're threatened and you're kind of trying to play the game and you can't be your full self. did you ever feel like you had to do that when you first met Barack Obama and you were an experienced lawyer and he was, you know, a summer associate. Yeah. Fortunately, it was one of the things that drew me to him. You know, like I didn't have to, I didn't have to change my fundamental self. I think it helped that we started out that summer with me not seeing him as a potential because I was his advisor.

And I was like, yeah, no, we're not going to do that, right? And why? You know, he's cute, but I have a lot of friends. And so I think that helped, right? Because I wasn't, we didn't start up our relationship as, oh, I'm going to try to, yeah, you know, it may be, it would have. but I think we kind of entered it, you know, as peers, you know, and we developed our relationship because we had the same kind of humor and we'd make the same kind of jokes and we'd find

the same things kind of corny, you know, and I was being fooling myself, cynical in ways, and, you know, I'd pick at it and pick at them and be like, that's weird, why do you do that? I mean, so the fact that that made him think we should date, right? It's like that meant that like that didn't repel him that was like he was like and I was like no we shouldn't date because that looks tacky and it's like I don't care what people say. So it's like you know so what do I tell a lot of young girls like dating different people helped me to to see the difference in who Barack was when he showed up. I don't you know if he had been the first person I dated because I I just didn't date. I might have taken that for granted. I might have thought, yeah, well, these are buddy vibes, right? I had learned enough to know this is different in an important way. And I just think that's the experience of dating different people and noticing. In the

end, it's, I want young listeners to focus more on their internal feelings. It's like really, instead of what is happened, what the world is telling you to feel, really start trusting your gut and building that internal gut of how you feel about other people, how you feel about yourself. Because I think in the end, the work is still within. Like the only thing you really can control is you in this world. And even in my marriage now, you know, you're going to. go through the period of I want him to be different. I want him to do this differently. I've grown

to know I don't have control over him just like he doesn't have control over me. So let me do my work and let him do our work. And together we come together as whole people. And so I want our our listeners because they're mine now too, right? Bring him in, Michelle. Like let's do the work on self. Like start feeling good about yourself. Start working on your health. Start feeling strong within yourself. Start practicing self-esteem. Start working on building your relationships and your friendships. You know, work on being as whole as you can be because you can't control who's going to love you, who's going to like you, who's going to give you a job, who's going to see you the way you want to be seen. because everybody has their own stuff.

And so you can't define yourself by other people's stuff. So, like, how do we become more confident individuals? We have to practice that, work on ourselves. We have to know, pick apart those aspects of our childhood that we carry around. I am a believer in therapy. I am in, I go to therapy. We've been in couples therapy. I believe in the practice of having those conversations.

with objective people who help you piece through that stuff. And it's a constant, it's constant work. You don't get to a point where like, I'm there, I'm done, I'm good. It's over, right? And then so I don't want people to be intimidated by, like, this is what life is. We are ever growing, evolving, improving. There isn't like a finish line where you get an A. And you're now a whole person perfectly.

I'm 62. It doesn't happen. My mother was 86 when she died, and there were parts of her that she was still building upon. And so it's not in your 80s. I had a great conversation with Jane Fonda and Bethann Hardison on my podcast about aging in the public eye. They're still having those conversations with themselves about evolving. And I think that that is the power that we have as women, is that we know we have to keep evolving. And so we do. A lot of men don't, they don't. It's so true. They're just like here and proud of it. Right. Because they've worn these same pants for 20. It's like, don't say that. Like, that's not cool. It's not impressive. It's not impressive. It's not impressive.

Not impressive. No, it's so inspiring the way that you are speaking about this because I remember I was so fortunate I got to interview Jane Goodall. And she talked a lot about how she was still pushing and she was still going because she still wanted to learn. And I think having an appetite to learn means you want to change and you want to evolve and you want to grow. And I agree with you the power of the system basically fucking us being like, you're not enough and you need to be this. It does force us to constantly have our head on a swivel. So in a beautiful way, you have to find the positive. we're forced to be so multifacitive and we're forced to know who we are in so many different lanes and we're also forced at average 18, 21, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, we have to constantly be thinking how we're evolving

because society is forcing us to do that. But if we can use it to our advantage, that's when you become unstoppable. And we can give ourselves grace in the process. Because in the end, I think we're all just too hard on ourselves, that it starts there, right? And so you're your first fan. And if your first fan is, like, you're just kicking your ass. Like, of course you're mad and bitchy and want to beat the other woman. Of course, you're competitive within yourself, right? And so that's where it splatters out onto everything else. And I think that women, we need to be kinders to ourselves. Really, gentler, you know? The anger that can come up with the double standards, I just want to make sure we hit on this

because I feel a lot of, in a beautiful way, yes, there is a lot going on with these generations, but we are vocal and people are saying how they feel. But it is crazy how the world still punishes outspoken women and judges us more harshly than men who literally say the exact same thing as us, right? At the beginning of your husband's first campaign, you were labeled an angry black woman because you were speaking assertively and honestly. And passionately. Yeah, you referenced that earlier of how they turned passion into anger. What advice would you give to strong women in this upcoming generation right now who are listening who have been labeled a bitch or too much or too passionate?

And they're doing the same exact thing as their male counterparts. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's, you know, there's still strategy in all of it, right? You know, what I found that I had to do, I had to be more thoughtful about my tone. I didn't agree with it, right? But I was like, until people get to know me, okay, let me smile a little bit more. Let me make sure I smile, right?

Because sometimes I'm talking and it's like, and that's the photo they get, right? So that's on the front page. I was like, I didn't feel that way, but that was in the middle. And I don't, I don't, I didn't like this. But I'm like, okay, we're, we still live in a society that has a different standard for women. So it's just like with fashion, let me, let me, let me understand the game. And let me, let me, let me, let me, let me play the game. All right.

So instead of being angry about being called angry, I was like, okay, let me be careful about, doing extemporaneous speaking, right? Because I can do it, but then I launch, right? That's why I do more speeches publicly, because I can take time and think about what I want to say and how I want to say it and sort of think about, you know, how I come off. I think now the more people have gotten to know me, right, at this stage in my life, I feel like, this is why I say, okay, if you know me, you know, you've heard me enough. You know my heart. You know, yeah, I can be funny, but angry. Nah, not really. I'm not that angry about that. I am angry about stuff. I'm angry about injustice, unfairness. I hate bullies. There's a lot I'm angry about. And I feel justified in being angry about it. So, all right,

you got me. I am angry about some things. But generally, right, but it takes some time to earn that. right? So as I'm talking to younger women, it's like understand how people are going to come at you, you know, and then think about how you want to deal with that because it's not going to go away. So what's your strategy of understanding that this is part of the game, that it doesn't define you? But if you're like I think it is more important for me to get the point across, than to be right about how I do it, especially in the world that we're in, which was, it's the country, right? So it wasn't about me.

It's not how I feel. Like, to me, that's what you, the responsibility of being a leader. That's not your feelings anymore. Like, I can have my feelings now because everything I'm doing is about me. But when I was first lady and when I'm doing public things, it's like, okay, my ego. So how do I get this to work? You know, that's what I think about. And if I'm delivering something in a way that makes the message fall short on some

ears, then I'm going to change it because I want people to get the message. It doesn't matter how I feel. I'm okay with making some changes to get this thing done. It's such good advice. Michelle, like even for myself, personally, I'm, I feel like a sponge right now. I'm like, keep talking, just keep going. Like how much more time we have? Because it's so relevant to the way that women live right now. It's like there are more ambitious women than ever, which is amazing. There are women working. We finally are allowed to vote. We all have credit cards. Great. Now we actually

have ambition and we're trying and it is an uphill battle. But we are being met with like, we, I just said the same thing as him. Why didn't that? work. It is, we have to acknowledge the game. And I think for a while potentially, especially with feminists and everything, we felt weird being like, no, play the game because it feels like we are twisting something and we're being sneaky. And it's like, no, no, no, no, we are the other. We are the other. So when we are coming in, it's, we're always playing someone else's game as women. We are the other sex. So it's okay if you are trying to move a certain way because we live in a man's world. And so you have to sometimes play cake.

and smile and do these things. But if you get your message across, that's kind of all that matters. If you get what you wanted to get done. And the other piece of that is that when we do have power, let's just not become male versions of the thing that was, female versions of the thing that was broken, you know, because a lot of this has to do with leverage, right?

So if you don't have the power to change it, then you've got to work to get the power. and sometimes there are compromises that have to be made to get the power. And then when you get the power, when you're the boss, when you're running your own thing, then how do you behave as the leader? That like then, like because this is your culture you're setting, when you're in charge of the culture, and if you're still, if you're perpetuating the game then you're a problem and not approving it.

Yeah. You know, that means that then you lost the plot on the way in. So, like, as we're being ambitious women, when we do get that thing, then who are you in it? How are you changing culture? How are you shifting? Are you just repeating the mistakes that made you play the game in the first place? The game is to get the power to have impact to broaden the aperture of what is possible. But when we do have the power, if we're oppressing, if we're shouting down, if we're not including, if, you know,

if you're in charge of the dress coat, change it. You know, if you are the head of HR and there are ways that you can make life easier for, you know, working mothers and families, then be the advocate at the table and don't say, well, I had to, you know, I didn't have this when I was there, so you have to pay the same dues. Be the change. Yeah, be the change. And don't, like, you don't want everybody to have to pay your, dues. If you know the dues were there, then open it up for your, the next generation. Make your seat,

the seat that makes it easier for others like you to be there. Something as you're saying that to bring men into this conversation, which I was watching your speech in 2016 today when you were, the whole speech was really about women and you were, you know, there for Hillary. And it was such a beautiful moment because you're like, and men, men listening. And I think sometimes I don't want ever to have men leave the conversation and be like, oh, I guess. That's not about me. Yeah, it's not about me. And it's us against you and it's a whole thing. So I think to bring men into this conversation, you've talked about some really important male figures in your life. You've talked about your father, your brother, your husband. How do we bring men in and make them allies and partners to help

solve these issues because women cannot do this alone. We need them. No, no. I mean, look, I, as the older I get, I realized how blessed and rare my existence was as a woman in the world to be surrounded by so many amazing men where I was always safe. Like, like, in realizing that, like, that's more unique. like abuse, neglect, none of it. I had uncles and brothers and, you know, both of my grandfathers, right? I now understand how rare that is. Like it's sad and it makes me sad

to know that so many of us women and girls don't, can't say that, that they had someone in their life that that harmed them in some way. They were harmed at the hands of a man that they couldn't trust. I didn't have that. And I feel blessed. And I understand that's unique. So in that sense, we can't lump men into a category, right? Because there are a lot of allies, you know. They're different from us that, you know, we can joke. It's like, you're not that good at that. And you're, you know, but I have, I've grown up with wonderful men who my, the men in my life may help me with this confidence, you know. I was always a part of the, of the crew. I was never the little girl out. My father always thought, he's going to learn a box, you're going to learn a box, you know.

My brother protected me, right? So we can't forget that there are so many good men that, you know, it isn't an us against them. And we're the ones raising them still. Yes. You know, we have so much to impact into how our young men are shaped as mothers and as women in the world. And so we have to see them as essential allies from the moment they show up in the world. So, but we can't love them into complacency or incapability. You know, we're always building the men that we want.

And so my message to those men, you know, when I'm in a room full of CEOs and men, the thing I say to them, assuming that I'm talking to all the good ones, it's like, I know you love your daughters, right? Because we're of a generation now where the way my father, fathered me is not unique anymore. Like now we have fathers who want their little girls to be CEOs. Like, you raise them and you want them to believe that they can be anything, right? And so now you're in power. So the question is, are you building the world that you told your little girl existed, right? Are you, can you look around the C-suite that you run and say,

that the little girl that I put all these thoughts and ideas in, that she'll be safe at this table that I've created and that I control. And I'm hoping that if men think about the tables they're creating, and they're not just looking at the women they don't know, women that are not their children, you know, it's like men don't raise us, right? So maybe they don't see us as part of them. But maybe if you see your daughter at the table, that you'll do the work to make the table a place that will respect and honor the world that you

told her she could have. Because I always say, then if you don't, you were lying to her. Because she's going to enter this world with the beliefs that you built her up. You built her up, you set her up. And that can be crushing. And it's interesting when I put it that way, Like those rooms can go a little quiet in a way that I think. I don't know that there are men thinking about that allyship in that way. Like putting themselves in the role of their daughters that they're raising, right? But that's why even just this conversation, Michelle, it's like I can already see it just like clipping that, having that out there for people to consume what you're just saying. Like I do think I can recognize as a woman as much as you can think, oh my God, like I hate these

freaking men. That is going to help all of us get closer to this goal of we do deserve to be equal to men. We really do and we still aren't. And so it's like you have to allow the people who are in the position of power to let us in. And so to completely alienate them. I think a lot of men in this generation are like, I don't even know what I'm supposed to do. I guess like women just fucking hate me. I'm just going to sit over here.

It's like, no, no, no, no. Do not, we cannot lose their attention. And I think this message is important. Yeah. You said that not going to Trump's inauguration was an act of getting even more comfortable with saying no, regardless of what people think, which was so powerful because as women, that's how we're trained. People please.

Say yes at all costs. Has getting comfortable with saying no changed your perspective about your very famous line when they go low, we go high. And do you think that the message still applies, given the enormity of what women are up against today? Yeah. You know, in the light, I tried to, I tackled that question. Do we still go high?

Right. And I start by saying, like, the point of, what going high means to me is what, We talk getting to the solution. It's outcome determinative, right? Like, what are we, what is our strategic goal? And going high means that we are working strategically towards that goal with a plan and some objectives and it's not purely emotional, right?

That doesn't mean that emotions don't exist because they do. I do feel anger. I do feel pain and hurt. but if my anger is leading and it doesn't work, then what's, what are we doing? Now I'm just indulging myself. Now I'm just having a tantrum, you know, and some people want that. They're like, I want to see you have the tantrum that I want to have, right? I was like, but if the tantrum's not going to work, then what is the point? And when you're a leader in my mind, you should have a point other than self-indulgent, you know, indulging your anger, right?

Because we can get lost in that. So going high to me is feel the feelings, but where are you trying to go with them and let that lead? That's what going high is, thinking before you talk. I mean, we teach our kids that. I mean, that's what it is. It's like count to 10, you know, because like how I feel at the kitchen table, like, Like that's what the kitchen table is for. Like get all that out.

Say all the things you want to say. And then look at it and say, is that how you really feel? Because usually after you step back a little bit and it's like, yeah, well, I would take that out. And I said all of them and always, I used a lot of absolutes. That's not true. Now that I'm on 10. So let me refine that a little bit. let me take that. And then you'll find out that half the stuff you threw out there in anger isn't even

true. And it's not how you really feel. So now you should go out and communicate what you really feel really clearly that you think will, that's what going high is. So yeah, I think we should always be trying to go high. And I think is anybody with a platform, a powerful platform, it's a responsibility, right? Because that platform is powerful. Like the word you say, move people. And you can move them to productivity, or you can move them to division.

You can move them to hate. It is like anybody with a platform can do that. So now we now have a responsibility. If you want the platform, then be, it's like a gun. Like, learn how to use it. Put the safety lock on, you know, because you can cause a lot of damage,

but you can also do a lot of good, you know? And that's what going high means. And yes, I still think that. But have the feelings. You know, I'm not telling people that you're feeling, just like us as women, yes, it's not fair. It sucks. The standards are double. We're killing ourselves, you know. We're inundated with messages that are wrong. Feel that. Don't feel like you're crazy for feeling it. Wrong is wrong. Like, you know, bad is bad. And going high doesn't mean to ignore that. And we need to feel those feelings to act. But how we act on those feelings is the going high part, is my point.

Michelle, I need to hang out with you more. Okay. Wow. I'm just like, I'm going to like watch that back every day what you just said. Holy shit. I want to ask you about a recent comment you made about a female presidency. You said, don't even look at me about running because you all are lying. You're not ready for a woman.

You're not. As a country, what do we need to do to be ready? Like, what is it going to take? Look, we've come a long way. You know, and what my husband has said, and I agree with, change takes time. And context matters, right? 50 years ago, we were,

fighting for the equal rights bill. You know, I mean, just that's in, there are people alive today, you know, that, you know, couldn't marry the opposite race, you know, couldn't love who you loved. I mean, this is recent history of a country that's been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's been going along this way and then, boom, there's a lot of change. It just happened. But that means that the remnant.

of what has been there and what we've been socialized is really deeply embedded in who we are. And whether people really feel yet that they can follow a woman as president, like we would just be silly to think that there aren't just some gut kind of, I don't know. Like, we're not even analyzing what those feelings are about because we're trying to pretend like, it's all better. And I just think, well, how could it be all better? You know? I mean, we've been feeding off of this bone for so long. It doesn't just go away.

It takes time. Right. But we're moving. We are moving in that direction. So that statement was, you know, there was the humor of it. Like, stop looking at me, right? You know, so it's also my wry humor. It's like, come on, people.

You know, there were people who there are men out there that we're not going to vote for a woman. You know, that's, though, you, people have had those conversations, right? Let's just be real about it. And let's put that on the table and talk about, well, what's that about? Let's not be mad because I made the statement. Let's look at the fact that we've had two really qualified female candidates. One who was First Lady, Secretary of State, well-educated, you know, my husband beat her.

Right? People were more comfortable with him as a newcomer, right? And now we just had the former vice president. You know, we've had qualified women and they just, you know, again, if they're not perfect and they don't cross every T and dot every eye, there's a falling shortness that is happening that I, you know, I'd say, well, why can't we talk about that? Why are we pretending that that didn't just happen. I want to also just let you know, I agree with you, Michelle. I agree with you. My question back to everyone who's like, oh, no, we're ready. It's like, how could a woman hold the highest seat in the government when she has less rights than half the population? Yeah. Yeah. How would that even be, how would that work? We don't have legally equal rights to men. How would a woman

sit above met? Like, it does, we're not there. And so there were some people, even within the Democratic Party that disagreed with your statement publicly. People came out and just said, you know, just because we didn't like the candidates, that doesn't mean we aren't ready for a woman. Well, I hope so. Like, yeah, great, you know. And look, that means, that doesn't mean that women should roll up their sleeves and call it a day, you know, like, we're still growing, you know. So yeah, I think it's going to happen. Are we ready now? I don't know. Let prove us wrong. I would love that, right?

Michelle. If this incentivize everyone to prove us wrong, I'd be like, really? It's like, all right. And I'll be the first, be like, you're right. You're right. Statement. My bad.

We're like, we piss them off so much. They're like, no, we'll show you. Yeah. And they're like, let do that. Please. And look, for all the young women that we're talking to, keep climbing. If you want to be president of the United States, doggone it, then yes. Yes, you can. Right. So yeah, this isn't about slowing down.

You know, we keep fighting and growing and developing and evolving and learning what happened there. Why didn't that work? But let's really talk about it because it hasn't worked. We've had women governors. We just haven't been able to crack that ceiling with really great candidates. So let's figure out what what's what's going on. And in the meantime, what I'm telling all young girls is keep going, y'all. Go to college, get your education, continue to build those skills, continue to be good, be kind to yourself, go into politics. I am not a politician. That was also the other point, you know. It's just a reminder. He's like, I am not a politician, not interested in it, you know.

Just it's not who I want to be. But I do want a lot of young people, a lot of young girl. I want those who want to do it. We need you. We need you to want to be. So don't take that message as you can't. You should keep trying, keep proving the opportunity in this country's face, you know, but just be strong in it and know that you make.

come up short because maybe we are, maybe we aren't. But keep going. Well, it's like our whole conversation today. I think, again, there's so much to do for women to get to that place where we are ready. Okay, this is, I mean, let me know if you'll answer this one. I'm just going to try. Okay. Let's have a little fun. Okay. We're, I'm talking about the future here. So the future is whatever we want it to be. Okay. So it is. It. This is all hypothetical. If Trump does change the law and ruds for a third term, hypothetically do you think your husband would consider running? I hope not.

Michelle. I would actively work against that. You know. The whole world starts crying. I would really, I wouldn't be, I would be at home working against it. And maybe a lot of people will be like, good, we don't want them anyway. And I'm like, yeah, that's what I, right. Okay, so you're like not interested.

You know, I do believe in the need for new vision, right? I mean, the two terms is not just about we like them and we want it. It's just like the, we're changing and growing so fast. This is a hard job. And it requires new energy, new vision. all the time, new ways of looking at the world, right? So I do believe that eight years is enough. Like, you know, so, and there's so many talented people out there.

Like, why are, why will we keep going with the same people, you know? I would be a proponent for how, and how are we going to build young leaders of the same people keep doing it again and again and again, you know, now's your turn, now's my turn. Now you did it again, I'll do it again. And it's like, and there's all these young, smart people who are just looking outside with their ideas as leaders get older and older. You know, the older you get, you just live a different life as an older, established person. And I think there's room for that wisdom, but there's room for new ideas to come in. You know, so I am, I think two terms is enough for everybody, you know, and it's not a question of what order.

it's just like, we've heard and experienced your ideas. This country is constantly evolving. What are the next thoughts? People with a new set of experiences, a new set of a new take on the world. This new generation is coming up. They travel more. They know more about the world. They're exposed in a different way.

Like, I am really, really curious about their perspectives on how to fix some of this stuff. like we don't have all the answers and that's okay that's why we move on yeah it's a great point it's a really great point um to close us out yeah two more questions yeah i want to end on a message of hope because this is it's heavy stuff but it's like in order to change in order to grow we have to have hope we have to believe that there is room to move forward so first what advice do you have to women listening who feel scared and angry about the current state of things and where we are headed as a country? Oh, it goes back to something that I've said throughout this conversation that we have to be mindful of the context of where we are. And even this time feels

difficult, I would argue, because we've had a lot of unfettered growth, right? This has been a unique time of just no war. There's been no great depression. I mean, if you look at the history of the country, that's this little period, it's been, you know, not free of, A lot of problems, right? But it's been a real, it's been a continued shot upward. And now we're kind of leveling off a little bit, maybe a dip here or there, and that feels scary.

But as Brock said, the arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice. It means that you don't get to the place in a straight, direct route, that there bends and curves along the way. and we may be in a time where we're experiencing a bit of a bin, a bit of a dip, but we're still moving forward. And that is true. That's not like, that's factual, right? As Barack says all the time, if you could pick any time in human history to be alive, when you think of disease and poverty and science and equality and openness and access, would you pick any other time to be alive than right now? I know I wouldn't knowing what I, you know, we can fantasize about Hogwarts and, you know, I don't even know what time that took place because that's not a real. I do fantasize about it, but, you know.

Right. But there is a lot of stuff that was broken that we didn't have, that we didn't learn, and we've learned it now. And we're struggling to get to that next phase. But that struggle doesn't mean that we're not making progress. The other thing that I will say is like I, my experiences throughout my life, particularly as First Lady, I have seen this country up close. I really have been to many towns and communities, mourned losses, been on military bases,

you know, been in homeless shelters. have seen great joys and great pains, but rarely am I disappointed as a whole with who we are as a people. Like, that is my experience, because I've gotten to be out there in a way that most people, let alone most Americans don't. We live in our little corners of the world. We live on our blocks in our neighborhoods. That's how we are. We're humans. We are packed. We live in our small tribes. That's how we are, and we don't know about other tribes, right? We know what we know. I've had the chance to experience other tribes, and I don't care what your political affiliation, what religion. We're all really, we really are wanting and moving towards the same thing.

You know, we want to live in communities where we get along. You know, we want our kids to be safe and have a good education. We want them to maybe be a little bit better off than we have, we were. But people aren't fundamentally greedy, you know. My father was a working class guy. He never wanted to be a millionaire. He never wanted to be a tech giant or an influencer. You know what my dad was, which is like most men, black, white, blue, green.

He wanted to be able to pay his bills and feed his kids and take care of his family and maybe have help. health care, you know. He's like, he wasn't competing to be the richest of the rich. In fact, he was like, you can have that. That seems complicated, right? I'm good. To me, that's most Americans. And we can get there because most people don't want that much, but we do have to support each other. You know, we do have to protect one another and we have to, you know, have policies and principles that protect the greater good. And I think with the right leadership,

we're right there. You know, when it doesn't feel fair, people aren't happy. You know, they don't, they're not, they don't feel comfortable watching other people's pain. I know that about this country. It's just a question of how do we get out of this? And it's complicated.

And we like answers that are quick and easy. But most of the stuff is really, really hard. And it takes some time. I don't know if that's hopeful. But to me, it is. It is all possibility. It is hopeful. I think it's what we needed to hear because I agree with the immediacy.

Everyone now is looking for such the answer immediately or else they're just like, so we're doomed. It's over. It didn't work. Yeah. And I think my last question when I was thinking about that is yes, at first I was kind of talking about women. But like, our world does feel or a country does feel very divided today. That's a fact, right? Some people, we can't even look at each other anymore.

And the hate and disgust and vitriol, it's so bitter. Like, the divide is so big. It almost feels unfixable. And sometimes I think it feels like we've turned away from seeing people's humanity. that it almost feels like to the point that we've almost lost our own humanity because we can't relate. We can't see even if we are divided on what side we're on. And so to leave us with this, I guess, and I know it's, you'd be like, well, do you have 10 hours? But in the opposite of what you said, where I'm like, can you give us a quick answer, Michelle?

Can you, though, somehow explain in your opinion how you think we begin to repair a, not only what we have lost, but create a new future that is actually inclusive, equal, and respectful of each other. Because right now, it does not feel like we are close to that. And don't you get a sense that people are not content in that? Yeah. Right? So let's, you know, I think more people are starting to be outspoken about it and realizing,

is this what we, you know, and a lot of people are like, I didn't. sign up for this. That is us speaking. That is us, you know, that's our real hearts kind of coming to the fold. I'd like to think, you know, it, you know, didn't have them right away. But it's not like it's been a long, long time. We don't, we're not, like, I just, if everybody looks inside, this isn't what we wanted. We want parts of it. There's some things we want that mix didn't work, but this, I don't think we're, we're happy in this state. And I think that's a good sign, you know. I mean, if everybody were like, yeah, I'm good, yeah, I feel great. Merry Christmas, right? I mean, maybe I'd be like, okay, right? But, you know, I'm assuming in

your conversations, people are starting to really, we're figuring out what is it that we do want. You know, we were defining a lot. I don't want that. I don't want that. But the work is, well, what do we want? And I do think, I don't think that this young generation wants to go back, have less freedoms, less possibilities of who they can be in the world, who they can marry, who they can love, who's in and who's out.

You know, I just think we've come too far to go that far back. that's what that's that's what I have faith and I'm choosing to have faith you know and so that those are choices and now for all our listeners it's like now we've got to do the work to look inside and figure out the parts of this that are working and what is it we have to really start having conversations about that that's hard to do at a time when you know our our our our our algorithms are feeding us what we want to hear, but now we know that. Now we're aware. It's like, okay, you can't just get your information from your phone or your TikTok

because it's feeding you yourself. And so if you want to learn something else, you may have to talk to people. We may have to start coming out of our phones and back into communities. And we have to give each other the benefit of the doubt. It takes a little time because we've been so mad. But it hasn't been that long. It hasn't been that long. So we can remember what it felt like when we felt more connected.

It's such a great point. And I think that's why I just was so excited to talk to you today because I feel like, especially understandably young people, I think, have just like an aversion to politics right now. It's just like, oh, my God, it's all this like marketing and propaganda and like, oh. And then again, with social media, we've lost the way we're, we don't really know who to follow right. now. We don't know who to listen to right now. And so that goes back to the beginning of this interview to close it out. It's like, I knew that we could have fun. I know you're funny. And I know we would have a good time, Michelle. Okay, trust me. It's like round two. You'll come back

again one day. But it's like, we could have fun. But we needed you. I needed to hear from you and we needed to absorb this right now because I just felt it. And I try to have such a pulse with my audience on what they're needing. And I felt this. It's like going into this new year, we need this fresh perspective. And so I genuinely cannot thank you enough for gracing me with your time. I know you are beyond busy. But no, but let me say, Alex, that part of the solution are folks like you young, you're still, to me, you're young, you're baby. And it's like proud baby. Way to go. But you've evolved. And you're building, you understand the power that you have to have different conversations.

And, you know, you've got this amazing audience. They love you. They're, you know, they're intrigued by you. And there's a reason for that. So that's power. And now you're in the, you're in the power seat. So what do you do with that? You know, how do you, how do you, you know,

take what you've learned or you're learning and you know about the folks who follow you and help them see more and see things differently. And you're doing just that. People are listening, right? You know, they may come in for the burger, but they leave with, they leave with a carrot. Carrot of wisdom. And that's because you're choosing, you know, to really think about your platform and modeling something new and that's what it's all about. Look, I love talking to people, but I also don't want to be talking to people forever. It's like your generation, it's time for you all to sit in these seats and get right what we didn't get right. And it's okay for us to admit that our generation, we figured a lot of stuff out, but we didn't fix it. And that's not what

that it's a marathon. It's a relay race. I'm passing the baton to you, my friend. And you can do it. Maybe a couple more side conversations just to like give me a little bit more more. Okay. We'll keep talking.

We'll stay in touch. We'll stay in touch. But I am proud of what you're building and how you're using your space. And that's going to make a difference. So keep doing what you're doing. This has been so much fun. And I'll talk to Barack and make sure that next time I come in, you know, does you want to talk about option one?

Barack, option one. The headlines from this cannot be as crazy as what option one would be. So anything you're stressed about PR-wise, babe, don't worry. It would be fine. It would be right there. Michelle Obama, thank you, thank you, thank you. It was an honor having you on Collardot. It's great spending time with you.

Thank you for having me. And more to come. More to come. More to come.