Call Her Daddy - My Friends Make Me Feel Like Shit

Episode Date: April 23, 2023

Is it necessary to have a best friend? Is it okay to be friends with colleagues? Do I really need a “friend group”? Clinical Psychologist and friendship expert Dr. Miriam Kirmayer joins Call Her Daddy to discuss the different types of friendships we can have in our lives. She gives advice on what to do when a friendship feels unequal and how to determine if you’re a good friend to others. If you are looking to reexamine the friendships in your life Dr. Miriam Kirmayer is here with the answers.

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Dr. Miriam Kermeyer, welcome back to Call Her Daddy. Thanks for having me back. This is great. To remind everyone, you are a clinical psychologist and friendship expert. And the last time we spoke, we had so much to discuss. And my listeners were like, can you please, please, please give us more on friendship? This is seriously a problematic area in my life. We need help. So we are just going to do another episode and we're going to keep going on it. Let's do it. So friendships come in various forms. From your experience, what are the different types of friendships that people may have in their life?

Yeah, well, this is kind of how we ended off our conversation last episode, right? We were talking a little bit about this idea of friendship types or friendship tiers. And there's actually different ways to look at this. And so I'm curious to know your experience here too. We can look at different types of friendship in terms of levels of closeness, right? So we can say, I have acquaintances, I have true friends, I have close friends, I have a best friend. And that's definitely something that I think resonates with a lot of us in terms of our experience when we look at our social networks, right? And the research in this area even typically uses that type of a classification system when we're talking about it.

But there's another way to look at it as well, which are the different types of people that I have in my life, right? And that's where we start to see ideas like childhood friends, into the picture, lifelong friends versus newer friends, more activity-centered friends, people that I do things with, but I might not open up to them about some of the challenges that I'm having in my life. Or those friends can be very context-specific, let's say. So there's different ways that we can look at it. And yeah, let's get into it. Sometimes if you are really focused, let's say like when I was living in New York City and I had gone out of really bad breakup and none of my childhood best friends were living in the city at the time and so I started to acquire a lot of these like party friends and at the time I was

like misinterpreting those relationships as these fulfilling friendships because I had no one to go out with at the time. I was like in a really toxic relationship that when I got out of it, all of his friends and my friends were really his friends when we first started dating. And so I lost a lot of friends. And so I had to kind of like come up with my new friend group system. And so these people were really just like a distraction on the weekends and we would we would only hang out when we were drinking but in my mind like I started to like kind of blur the lines between like are these actually my friends like would they even be there for me if something was going on with my family or would

they even be there for me if like I lost my job and I wasn't the call her daddy girl anymore like there were certain things that I started to have revelations of just through little moments of like texting someone on maybe a Sunday of wanting to go get a walk. And like, they're not answering me because they just want to drink instead of like having a normal relationship. So like, I think sometimes we can look at relationships, especially in our twenties as we're trying to figure out our life and where we are at in terms of like our needs. And then sometimes we try to force friendships into certain

like holes of like what works for us when really the reality is what is that fulfilling in your life? A lot of times you have to be realistic about how you feel about the friendship rather than what it's going to, what you want it to do for you. I was just going to say, I think you touched on a really important idea there, which is this idea of the needs that our friendships fulfill. Because one of the themes that I definitely hear and, and, uh, you know, can relate to as well as this idea of comparing relationships and not to say comparing the people in your life, although we can get into that too, right. But comparing the different types of friendships that we have in terms of, is there a better type of friendship to have, or do I need a best friend? And that's something that we were talking a little bit about last episode as well,

right? And the mindset shift here that I think is so important is to recognize that just as friendship is a non-negotiable, we really do need friends in our lives. We also need different types of people in our lives. And once we can kind of get to that place, then it allows room for multiple people to exist and for us to take the pressure off some of those connections, because we're no longer dependent on one person to meet all of our connection needs. Yeah. Can we talk about that a little more? Because my next question I wanted to ask, like, why is it so helpful and so many ways, that's affirmed by the people that we surround ourselves with, right? We're able to express different parts of ourself with different people. You know, I remember, I'm thinking personally now, one of my very first high

school boyfriends made a comment at some point, it really stuck with me, said something like, you know, you're different, you act differently when you're with different people. And at the time I was very insulted. I was like, what are you talking about? I am who I am. And I, you know, I feel good about that. And then looking back, I actually have a different view of that. I actually think, you know, so long as we feel very secure in who we are and we know who we are, that's okay that we're allowed to express different parts of ourselves with the different people in our lives. There are some people that we're able to go, you know, on adventures with and be a little bit more gregarious with. There's other people with whom we're just a little bit more reserved and professional and that works,

right? So partly it's about expressing the different parts of ourself and allowing there to be an outlet for that. The other piece though, is that it's very much protective for the different friendships that we have in our lives, right? When we can kind of diversify our friendship network, so to speak, then our individual friendships tend to be much healthier because again, we aren't consistently relying on one person, not only to meet all the different needs that we have, but to help us meet, you know, a certain level of emotional intimacy, so to speak. And it can just be really freeing in that way. Yeah, I love that you're talking about the boyfriend saying that to you, because I agree at first, I would be like, excuse me, like, what are you talking about?

Fuck you. No, I'm not. But I think it's so true where, again, when I now look back to that relationship that I had with those people in New York, I'm so grateful to them because what I also was needing at that time in my life was some reprieve of like, I wanted a social life. I wanted to go have fun. I wanted to have a group of people that I could just socialize with. And honestly, I realized that had I kind of stopped talking to my really, really close friends because I was so embarrassed about what happened to me with this ex-boyfriend. And I realized, oh, let me pick up the phone and call my childhood best friend and tell her what's going on. And then I'm not going to feel so depressed when I'm out and drinking with these people and socializing because that's the need that I need filled there. I should be able to have fun and be fun, Alex, and party and drink and take shots and like

have a great social life with these people. But probably these aren't the people also that like know me well enough that I would even want maybe their advice in terms of like the relationship I was just ending with. So it's like you have to also I think sometimes we have this idea that friends can fit all and that's just not what it is because we meet people in different environments. We have different needs. They have different needs. And so I agree it's so healthy when you can have like a very different balance. But do you think there are any negative consequences to having different levels of friendships? Yeah, let's, let's think about this. So negative consequences, the way I like

to think about that word consequences is to ask, is there a problem here or the potential for a problem when it comes to my own well-being, my own mental health, my own physical safety in some cases, right? Or is there the potential for negative consequences about the friendship? And I mean, in both of those cases, the answer can be yes. I mean, what we see is we know that if we don't feel fulfilled, if we feel lonely, especially when it's more chronic, if we feel fulfilled, if we feel lonely, especially when it's more chronic, if we feel disconnected, if we feel unsatisfied in our connections, there are very real consequences to our mental health and our physical wellbeing. I mean, there's a lot of interesting research coming out every day on this showing that our friendships and our need for

connection is actually one of the strongest predictors of how happy and healthy we are and how long we live, more so than things like diet, like exercise, even genetics in some situations. When you think about consequences of it, can it be stressful or can it, there can be negative things. I think what it is, it's same thing in romantic relationship, which is most of the time, two people are not on the same page. Exactly. Exactly. And this is that interpersonal piece, right? There's the potential for consequences when expectations are not aligned. When we are looking for something in that friendship that that person is not able to give us, and sometimes just not able to give us at that point in life, right? But when the kind of expectation and reality of that friendship are not aligned, that is a significant source of distress personally and, of course, can have consequences for the friendship and lead to conflict and distance and in some cases diss to ask the question of like my best, best friend recently, let's say someone saying is like, I give them so much of my time and

they give me so much of theirs, but I just have never felt like as an equal dynamic. I feel like I'm so much more invested in their life and I'm so much more willing to give them good advice. And like, I just feel like half the time she's half listening to me. Like how does someone without getting mad at the other person, because really it is about like looking inward, like how do you always help people navigate when a best friend situation feels very imbalanced? Yeah. Well, I think that idea of looking inward is again, the place to start here because all we have control over is ourselves. Right. And so if we can start by asking, okay, what is the need that's not being

met here, right? Can I get clarity there? Is it about, it seems like there's an imbalance in terms of the time we devote to talking about each of our lives, or I'm putting way more effort into this friendship, even though the other person seems really willing to get together, I'm always the initiator, right? The two choices we really have is, well, three choices. One is we can just continue with the status quo. And truthfully, this is what most people choose, right? Because we're afraid of being assertive for a number of reasons, because we have these ridiculous expectations about our friendships that our friends should just know what we're thinking and feeling, or because we shouldn't be assertive in our friendships. So that's one option. And it's often the option I

advise against, although of course you can continue to do that, right? Next option is to actually say something, to label it. And again, being curious, I'm noticing this. What is this like for you? Is there something going on? Very often there might be something going on in our friend's life that has nothing to do with us, right? Or maybe they just have a different need and threshold for that type of intimacy in a friendship. And so it didn't occur to them that we might need something more or something different. So having a conversation can be very helpful. The other piece here though, that can be really helpful in some situations, And this is again, where the idea of context is so important, but for some people, my advice is actually to scale back

and not to do that in a passive aggressive way, right? But to ask ourselves, well, why am I giving so much, right? Because one way to restore the balance is to encourage the other person to do more, but we can also create a bit more balance by scaling back. And again, that's not withholding respect or love or attention and effort, but really just dialing it back to a level where things feel a little bit more balanced. Because one of the themes that comes up very often is this belief

that I need to be in giving mode in order to feel connected to people or in order to have people stay in my life, right? And so if we can chip away at that idea, not only do we have a lot more energy to devote to our other relationships and friendships, right? We can restore the balance and end up feeling much, much, much more secure in the friendship. I love that advice so much because I also understand it's obviously so hard to do, I feel like I bet there's so many people listening to this today that are gonna feel like shit like I definitely am the one that's always going to my friend and I feel really negative and I almost feel resentful towards my friend now

and you have to look at a daddy gang like well wait why are you putting in such an effort if someone else isn't putting in the effort and And I get it also, if there was something like serious that recently happened, like maybe, you know, your friend went through something and they're depressed. And so you're trying to like keep on them to allow them to know, like, I'm not leaving. I'm here for you. Like there are certain situations where I understand like going to your friend to show support is different. I'm just talking about the day to day. If you're like, Stacy never calls me and I'm always going to her house and I'm always the one initiating. I love the advice of stepping back because at the end of the day, it's like what my mom said when I was growing up, she would always be like, why would you want to be friends with someone that doesn't want to be friends with you?

And I know it hurts, but it's like, why are you going to give someone so much more energy if they're showing you what they want the dynamic to be? How much more impactful for your happiness if you can then go find someone? It doesn't mean you don't have to be friends with that person, but you can now go find someone that's going to meet you there and hold your needs because there are definitely other friends that would love to sit and talk for hours about what they're going through. Or there are some friends that would love whatever your need is. There's going to be another person, you just have to recognize the person in front of you is not meeting you where you're at. And you keep trying, maybe stop trying so hard. Yeah, no, that's exactly it. It's not about having unmet needs and just being okay with that,

right? It's about asking ourselves, well, how can I have this need met? Because this clearly isn't working. And again, I want to depersonalize that, right? Very often, that's not a reflection of you. That's a reflection of the other person's capacity for intimacy or the amount of time that they have to devote to their friendships during the week or something else entirely. But when you can depersonalize that, it can be very freeing and open up space to actually have that need met in a way that's going to preserve both friendships, right? It potentially deepens the other connection with that new person you're reaching out to and takes a little bit of the pressure off that

initial friendship that probably will benefit from that if you're already feeling that dynamic. It's such a good point. Do you think it's beneficial to have a friend group or do singular friendships serve the same purpose? Yeah. I have to say this is one of the number one themes that comes up when I'm talking about friendship or doing any kind of speaking engagement, even working with clients, this idea that our friendships and friend groups in particular should look a certain way, right? And I lump the belief that we need a best friend in this category too. But second to that is this idea of I need the friend group. What we see is this, having, again, different people who meet our different friendship needs, that can be just as beneficial as having the core friend group.

So you're not, you know, necessarily missing out on any of those kind of psychological benefits or health benefits even to having connection in your life. The difficulty is that this is an experience that people really want and crave and perhaps had in the past, right? When we think back to high school or college days, maybe we had that. Maybe it's harder the older we get because it is, because of course. And so I think there also needs to be space to kind of just accept and process that, in some sense, grief, right? And that sense of loss that can be there. The other piece that is true is when you have people who are part of a common group, it can make it easier to stay connected, right? Because the responsibility of making plans, reaching out, sending something in the group chat, that responsibility is shared.

And so it does take off a little bit of the pressure and the energy that's needed to maintain our connections. And so there is a benefit in that sense. The flip side of that is that there are also more opportunities for conflict when there are multiple people involved. And so it's not necessarily as rosy as it might seem and certainly not as perfect as it appears on social media. I love that you're saying that because I write as yours about you right when you said it is easier when you can to stay connected. I was about to say I'm like when I think back to high school or college, you're immediately put into these friend groups that it's just by proximity and it's just by that you're all in the same place in your life. And it's just like half the time it's like, would you really be in that friend group in your 20 group? Probably not, which again is fine. But I do just want to make people feel better that maybe I think it's really hard in your twenties and your thirties and your forties and so on to maintain friend groups because then people's lives start to drastically change just with regard to like, maybe people start

having kids. Maybe people are getting married. Like there's just, everyone starts to go in a different trajectory and the pacing is much different and so having friend groups and proximity and jobs and relocations it all starts to spread everyone out and it's normal and I think if you're struggling today being like I miss my friend group that is normal and that is a nostalgia for the like schooling that we were brought up in and you're constantly with people your same age going through the same thing as you but I agree though it's like yeah but then you can't get really as close

with people in times and it is sometimes a freaking disaster so there's always pros and cons but exactly something I was going to ask you when I was thinking about how we kind of talked about like we can't expect one friendship to meet all of our needs. But what if someone is like listening today and is like, Miriam, I feel like all of my friendships, I'm just constantly being let down. Like every friendship I have, I'm just unfulfilled. Like I don't feel happy. Like what could you maybe instead of having them talk about how they're unfulfilled by other friendships, like, do you know anything maybe internally or they can personally work on? Cause a lot of times it's like, well, what's going on with you? Yes, exactly. I mean, and this does happen, right? And it can happen to different degrees. Sometimes it's that we find ourselves in friendships and frankly, all of them just feel unhealthy or, you know, I'm using air quotes now, toxic, because I think we need to dismantle a little bit how we use that

word. But there can be certainly that felt experience of like, this is just not healthy. Sometimes it's a little bit more subtle, right? It's this feeling of, yeah, I have these people in my life and I appreciate them, but I'm still feeling unsatisfied. My advice here is, firstly, again, get that clarity. Okay, what is missing? Can I label it? Meaning, is there a part of me that I'm not sharing that I don't feel is being affirmed or seen? And do I need to show up differently in my friendships? Do I need to be more vulnerable and more open about what's really going on, both in terms of the shitty things that are happening in my life and also the really fucking amazing things that are happening? Because maybe that's what's missing. Maybe I want to be celebrated because that too is what we

experience in our friendships, right? So do I need to take responsibility to really show up in a different way? That's a possibility. Another possibility is who am I letting into my life, right? And we talk a lot about the energy that you're putting out there and who you're attracting. And that's certainly a part of it, right? Who is attracted to you? What is the kind of, yeah, energy and overall feel that you're putting out there? But it's not just about who comes to you. It's who you let in and who you let stay. That to me is the most important piece. And for many people, this is rooted in different types of insecurity, right? About our worth. That's like a scarcity mindset too of, okay, well, I don't love this friend group, but if I let go of these people, way can actually have profound implications on our connection in our current relationships and our ability to make new ones. repeat for everyone forever listening to that. That's so helpful. I took a lot from that listening. I'm like, oh, wow. I think a lot of times, yeah, you have to look at like, why am I,

I think a lot of times we can outgrow friends. And I think that people feel like, oh my God, did I do something wrong? Did they do something wrong? Like not all friendships have to end in this like big animosity war, this blowout fight, like who you are maybe, or who you were when you were in college. And now you have this job or you're in a serious relationship. Like people change and, and change is so good. And, and it's okay if you both change and you're such different people now, because it's like you had that person in your life for a reason, but maybe you don't need to be as close. And it doesn't need to be like, we can never talk again. This relationship is over.

I think people get really wrapped up in the idea of friendship and how to navigate when you're feeling like, maybe I want to pull away. It can get really daunting and scary because friendship also can kind of have a huge toll on your self-worth at the time of like, if I don't have friends, who am I? And I love what you're saying of like, sometimes you have to recognize like, why are you so insecure to like, maybe be without friends for a little bit? Like maybe you're going through something. Maybe you aren't a good friend right now. Maybe that's why you're having, like, I had a conversation with a friend recently of like, she was like, I really want friends. Like, I feel like I, you know, she was in a toxic relationship and she's looking for new friends. And I was like, listen to me, I so hear

you and you're going to get there, but are you ready to be a friend back? Or do you want someone to just listen to your problems? Cause that's why you're in therapy girl. So it's like realizing it takes two. And so don't be mad if someone else can't give, but also recognize, are you even giving into a friendship? Are you your best self? Because sometimes we need to pause and be like, I'm really going through it. I can imagine it's annoying as hell to listen to me right now. Like, I just need some time. And that's okay. Well, and this is, again, where I think that idea of levels or tiers of friendship is so important because maybe you're at a point in your life where jumping into a really intimate friendship doesn't make sense because there isn't the time there. You can't really think of who that person would be, but that doesn't mean that you still don't need to feel connected in that moment. And that doesn't mean that you can't still benefit from seeking out acquaintances, right? Or more of those friendships of convenience,

as we call them. And so I think that no matter where we're at, we do need to feel connected, but we do need to take ownership over what we have the capacity for in that moment. Yeah. I think to some people listening, people will relate to this because I don't know why this just popped into my head, but I think there's sometimes in friendships that there's a friend maybe let's say that is like the cool girl and someone listening is friends with this person but like kind of never feels good around this person but also does feel good because they feel cool when they're hanging out with this person but it's always about the other person it's always about their life and like you're almost just feeling like you're in this person's shadow and maybe you've been friends with this person since

high school or college and they've always been like the cool hot chick that you're like I love hanging out with her but you just never feel great about yourself and so I'm wondering if you have any advice for someone that's kind of like in that weird dynamic where they semi feel fulfilled because status wise, it brings them such fulfillment to just at least be in the rooms that this person gets to go into. But on the other side, it's like, how do you actually feel? And how does this person make you feel? And it's actually pretty shitty. Yeah. Well, and I think that that is the crucial question when we're talking about loneliness and healthy connection is how do I feel? How do I feel

when I'm with this person before I spend time with this person, after we spend a night going out together? How do I feel? It sounds so simple, but rarely do we take the time to really ask ourselves that question. And if we really lean into that and are truthful with ourselves, very often we find our answer there, right? The other piece to really keep in mind is that people differ in terms of how much they're seeking status or popularity, and that potentially becomes less important as we age, right? Although not always. But what I can say is that that is not a road to connection. That is something different. And if that's a value of yours, that's okay that that's a value of yours, but that's independent

from connection. And you still are going to need other meaningful friendships in your life. And the last thing that I want to say here, and I think this is really interesting research that came out not too long ago, there's something called ambivalent friendships where we feel ambivalent. There's a part of us that really values and appreciates this person and who they are and what it's like to have them in our life. And there's also a big part of us that really fucking hates that and feels really uncomfortable with that. And actually, ambivalent friendships are some of the most consequential for our health. They are potentially the ones that are most difficult to be in, to manage, and potentially the ones with the biggest negative impact on how we feel in our

life. And so it is worth asking that question and it is worth considering, is there something else other than status here that's keeping me in this relationship? Yeah. I love that you're just, you're just putting it out there and saying like, and you also may hate them and like, or hate it, the dynamic. But like, I just, I really do. I've been in those situations. I'm sure you have where like, there's just someone that is just, you know, it's such a negative relationship and I feel like also with experience and you know getting maybe more mature like I look back at certain relationships in my life when I was in high school or my 20s and like I do oh I am in my 20s hello um in my high school and college years where I think it's okay sometimes to have these surface level friendships when

you're when you have a need like there's no better time than high school and college to like you're focused on your ranking and what parties you're getting into and where you're going and so like but as long as you're being honest with yourself of like I know this person and I get along in terms of going out together, but I'm not going to expect this person to be there for me when it's 3am and I'm crying on the floor over a breakup. Like, so it's like setting the expectation within yourself so that you're not let down when it's like, oh, right. She only cares about herself. And this isn't a real friendship. This is a more surface level going out friendship. But I do think that as you get older, it gets easier,

just like anything to like start to recognize because eventually you're going to end a friendship at one point. And I remember ending a relationship that was so toxic and I just felt so drained. Like every single time this person, I was with them all the time. And it was just like, I feel like I'm just constantly giving to this person to prop them up and making them feel good and talking there through their issues. And I'd be exhausted every single time I left this person. And I'm like, I don't think that she asked me one question about myself. I was just there for her. I was just giving, I'm listening. And I'm like, yeah, but why did I do that? Why do I keep doing that? And so there comes some type of accountability you have to get to, and it takes a while.

But like, why did I keep doing that? Maybe because I was hopeful she would change. I don't know. Well, and again, the three choices, right? Well, do nothing, right? And the friendship at a certain point, because it just doesn't feel balanced in a way that we really want it to. Say something, you know, label it. I really want to feel, there's something I really want to share with you now.

And, you know, it would mean so much to me if we could talk about that or, you know, being explicit in that way, or carve out the space, right? Try it out. Cause this is, again, we're not necessarily talking about those really unhealthy friendships here, but there are moments and there are friendships where we don't feel like we have that space and it's because we're not stepping into it. Right. So can you take that initiative and try it out? See how the other person responds. Sometimes it's a bit of a cue. Oh, okay. Yeah, there is. I do want to hear more about that, right? And then we can kind of validate that effort.

Oh, thanks for asking me. That felt so good. I really felt seen, right? Sometimes we put it out there and it's not met with the response that we want. And that's telling, especially when that happens time and time again. where do workplace friendships fall and like what should we be mindful of when it comes to being friends with colleagues? This is bar none, my latest favorite thing to talk about. And, you know, I think it's because it's so important, like friendship across the board, which we kind of under appreciate and undervalue the importance of. This is especially true at work.

There was this outdated view that we should separate our work and our home life and that, you know, we have colleagues and we have friends. And certainly that works very well for a number of people. And it's partly a function of where we work and who we're surrounded with. But the research here is completely clear that having social connection at work, feeling connected to our colleagues, to our mentors, to our supervisors, and actually specifically having friends, people that we would really label as a friend, that that improves basically every measure or outcome that you would be interested in in the workplace. Sense of belonging, productivity, retention, focus,

profits for the overall company, fewer sick days, less absenteeism, fewer workplace accidents. Really across the board, social connection is at the heart of healthy corporations and organizations. And so I just can't say enough about this in terms of the importance. And this is really, you know, a message that I think is worth sharing widely. And organizations are doing more and more to talk about this. And it's definitely something that I think is worth sharing widely. And organizations are doing more and more to talk about this. And it's definitely something that I'm speaking more about. But I also think that we as individuals have a responsibility here, right? Because our companies and our organizations can do a lot of this work to offer and propose speakers on the topic and employee resource groups

where you have the ability to connect and kind of, you know, we call them here in Montreal, sainte cassette, right? After work drinks. That's great. But we as individuals also need to be willing to take that step to foster those connections.

And even though I am saying that friendship is so important at work, there's also certain considerations, right? We need to be a little bit more mindful of boundaries and space. And there's a little bit more hierarchy sometimes at work, which ideally should not exist in our friendships. And so how do we manage that? There's so much to say about this, really. You're so right. Like, on the one hand, I can imagine and I know from personal experience that And so how do we manage that lunch and to to or to talk about work and to be able to like bitch about what's happening and like kind of confide in each other

over whatever it is it starts to become sometimes some most of some of the most incredible relationships because it starts with such boundaries and such respect that you kind of can build something that is long lasting and even I know when people leave jobs and stuff like you stay friends with that person and there's this rapport that you build because it's so multi-dimensional right like you also are invested in the same type of career field or whatever it is but on the other hand I think like you say you know going to drinks with your colleagues like you do have to have more boundaries set because unlike going out with your girlfriends from high school or college like it's not going to be a good look if you over drink and you're blackout and you

get in a fight with someone from work, like then all of a sudden that's impacting your professional life. And so it's like there is a delicate balance of making sure that you still have your guard up to recognize that this is a professional setting. And in most cases, the job does come first. And again, it depends on your job. Maybe you guys are like, we want to leave here. This is an awful workplace. Like, let's get out of here. But if you love your job,

just be mindful that like, if boundaries are crossed, then that can make things a little bit more complex and difficult for you in your everyday work life. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I'll just share this. We don't have to, you know, belabor it. But one of the other big considerations that I see playing out in terms of workplace connections is, again, very often the people we become close to are people who are at our level, on our team, right? Kind of our peers, so to speak, at work. What happens when one person gets promoted, right? And now suddenly it becomes, again, more hierarchical and there are certain new boundaries or barriers that have to

be put into place. How do you maintain that closeness while also respecting the demands of the job? It's a lot. It is. It is. One of my last questions, because I have had some people write this in and I'm empathetic towards this, but what about a parent who you view and treat as a best friend? What complications may that bring? So let, let me, yeah, let me expand this for a second because one of the, I hear this, um, and I also hear this in the context of romantic relationships, right? My partner's my best friend. My mom's my best friend. I think that's communicating something quite lovely, right? Which is, again, that you don't just love this person, that you like them, and that there's this kind of mutual desire to actually have fun together and talk about some of the

things that you would speak to your friends about. And so I think that friendship is a healthy element of friendship in any of our relationships is actually a very positive thing. My concerns are like, you know, my, I get a little bit of a spidey sense when I hear this for a few reasons. One is because I think we can very easily convince ourselves then that we don't need other friendships or people in our life if we have this wonderful parent, if we have this amazing partner who we see as our best friend or a close friend. And so very often we're actually closing off other needs that we have. And again, investing in those other friendships actually enhances

our relationship with our partner, with our parents. And so it's not either or, it's both and. So that's one concern. The other concern, and again, without having details, it's hard to really speak to this, but sometimes that also is hinting at the possibility of a little bit of enmeshment, as we call it, right? And if we hear that that is a dynamic that's been there from day one, again, there's potentially absolutely no problem with that. It's beautiful. Or it can also be a sign that there maybe weren't the necessary boundaries that we really needed as children. And so it's hard to say, but I think it's simultaneously a beautiful thing and potentially something to think a little bit further about. I completely agree because I think, you know, as a parent is at a different stage in their life.

And I think that anyone listening, if you are wherever you're at, like it is important to make sure that almost kind of back to like the workplace thing. Weirdly, there's there's an importance to make sure you also have your parent as your parent and someone that, you know, raised you and you have dynamics like that, but like, it is important to make sure that you're maybe not just relying on that one person because they also provide a different relationship, AKA your parent. And so as much as they're your friend, um, sometimes you just need your parent and then it's hard to flip the switch of like, Oh, we're not friends right now tonight. We're not doing girls night. We're doing, I need my parent and so it's just like recognizing again like there is room to go and make other friends that can just be purely friends and not your parent and there's just I think it's just healthy again to have different levels of friendship so that you're not putting everything into one dynamic yeah because

that's when I think people get hurt and people get lost and people start to feel unfulfilled and they feel pigeonholed into trying to put all of their time and effort and things going on in their life into one dynamic. It's just not healthy. Yeah, exactly. Well, and I'll add this actually, I think we've talked a little bit about this in the last episode, but part of what makes our friendships different from our other relationships is that they're voluntary, right? We choose who our friends are. Like I was saying before, we choose who we let in, we choose who we let stay. And it's that choice specifically, that ongoing choice that makes our friendships so impactful for our sense of self-worth and our wellbeing. And so when we blur the lines between a friendship and for example, a parent relationship, um, our, our, our parents by no means chose us, right? Like we, we, we are who we are.

And so we're, we're not necessarily benefiting from that aspect of friendship and not to take away from that experience, but again, just to highlight that there is much to be gained by creating other types of connections. Oh, my God. I mean, we did it again. This is so fun. No, I can't thank you. I can't thank you enough for coming back on because it's I think sometimes when you just lightly touch on a topic, it can get people's wheels turning and spinning and people are

thinking about things. But I do think this is a nonstop conversation and thoughtful issue that people have in their lives. And dynamics are changing every day. People are growing up. People are changing. And I think it's important to just constantly have conversations about one of the most important relationships in our life, which are friendship. And so if anyone has been struggling with friendship, that's listening. We see you and it does get better, but I do think a lot of it can start with yourself and looking inward and, and assessing the dynamics in your, your life and trying to figure out what makes you happy and what doesn't feel too good. Well said. Miriam, thank you so much. The Daddy Gang loves you. And this was so helpful. Okay. Let's do it again. Thanks so much the daddy gang loves you and this was

so helpful okay let's do it again thanks so much take care