Call Her Daddy - Overcoming Social Anxiety

Episode Date: October 16, 2022

Anxiety sucks and we all experience it at some point. It can put a strain on your relationships, cause you to skip social events, and overall cause you physical and emotional discomfort. But we can’t allow anxiety to control our lives. This week, clinical psychologist Dr. Julie Smith is here with the answers. She provides tangible advice on how to manage all types of anxiety…from social anxiety to Sunday scaries to that moment when you are laying in bed at night with a million different thoughts racing through your head. You’ve come to the right place for some tools on how to ease and manage your anxiety.

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Dr. Julie Smith is a clinical psychologist, online educator, and author of the book, Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before? Today's episode is about anxiety, a feeling we all experience at some point in our lives. And I'm really excited to speak with you today. Welcome to Call Her Daddy. I'm really happy to be here. So let's just start with the basics.

How do you define anxiety? Okay, so anxiety is that feeling you get when your stress response is switched on. So all the time your brain is looking out for signals that you might not be safe or things might not be okay. And so your brain's job is, you know, well, we kind of think these days our brain's job is to keep us happy. It's not, it's to keep us alive. So your brain is constantly searching for any kind of signs that all is not well. And its job is to let you know, whenever it detects any kind of signs that you might be under threat to kind of gear your body up to move and do something about that really, really quickly. And anxiety is that feeling that we get when our body is gearing up for action.

So you get your kind of pounding heart, like you feel like your heart's going to burst through your chest sometimes, don't you? Or you feel like the butterflies in your tummy feeling or you feel sick and you might tremble and your muscles might start to kind of really shake even. And lots of people get like a dry mouth your body is working really hard to gear up so that you can either fight this threat off or run out of there or freeze and whatever it is you need to do so yeah it's just that feeling that we get the way that you just described those feelings too i'm like oh my god you did them so accurately i'm starting to get anxiety thinking about the symptoms i'm like, oh my God.

Something I've seen on social media that I think is really interesting is the concept of being introverted and someone cancelling plans because they don't want to leave their house and they're introverted versus having social anxiety of cancelling plans can you describe the difference and also is there any connection of do introverts have social anxiety introverts can have social anxiety just like anybody else but extroverts can as well so you know social anxiety? Introverts can have social anxiety just like anybody else, but extroverts can as well. So, you know, social anxiety, we would generally associate with a sort of fear of being around other people and fear of social interactions. And often that involves that kind of very inward

focus is sort of a worry about how am I coming across? Are people judging me? Am I getting this wrong? There'll be lots of sort of anticipatory anxiety leading up to some sort of social event. And then afterwards, they might come away thinking, oh God, I said the wrong thing. I must've come across terrible then. I wish I'd not said that. And you kind of berate yourself and it becomes this kind of cycle of anxiety that makes you avoid social interaction. Whereas, you know, introversion, extroversion is a description of personality traits, where somebody might, for example, with introversion, people often maybe prefer to be alone, or they find being alone, recharging and sort of energizing. So they can be in social groups and enjoy connection with other people, but it kind of depletes them

more easily. And I would definitely kind of relate to that. So I being with people, my job is about being with people, but it drains of energy. And then I find being alone recharges me ready for that. But I have to have that recharge in between where someone who's extrovert might thrive from being around people and connecting all the time? I'm so like you, I need my alone time or I feel completely exhausted, but that's really helpful to understand because I now can picture it perfectly. It's like the introvert is like, no, I just want to stay home because I want to be alone where the person with anxiety is like stressing out about what the social interaction will entail and the effects and the aftermath

and in the moment. So let's say someone with social anxiety is going to the party or going to the event or going to the job interview. What are some things that people can do in the moment to manage their discomfort? Well, something that I think is, I always found so fascinating and really helpful is, so people with social anxiety tend to have an inward focus in terms of how they think. So when you're in that social situation, you won't necessarily be focused on what someone is saying to you or about them. That focus will be, oh gosh, am I sitting right? Or have I had enough eye contact? How am I coming across? Did I say that right? Am I looking right? What are people thinking about me? And so there's this real sort of inward focus where you're

constantly sort of doubting yourself and questioning yourself. And then that anxiety just builds and then it can be really difficult to sort of engage in conversation and things like that and concentrate. And so one of the really great strategies that I mean, I've found helpful in the past, but also other people, you know, clients and things is to focus on sort of turning that around. So you go from this this mindset of sort of judgment based thoughts to curiosity, but you also shift that curiosity outwards. So, you know, as you go into a social situation, when you notice yourself focusing on how am I appearing to other people, think about what is it I want to find out from the people in that I'm going to see, you know, maybe I haven't seen that friend for a while and she's been on holiday. I'd like to find out how her holiday was,

or I know that my other friend is suffering because, you know, she is grieving. Maybe she lost someone last year, and I should find out how she is really and how she's getting on. And, and so you kind of focus on what is it I want to find out about these other people? What might I find interesting? So what could I ask them? But also, how can I be there for that person? How can I connect with that person and, and thinking about what you can offer, and what you can find out, which is with a very different focus that enables you to, you know, can only focus on one thing at a time. So you can't be really focused on being curious if you're also focused about criticizing yourself. I love that advice because I mean, I remember I went to an event. I don't really, I kind of avoid events in my industry. And I went to one because my publicist was like, you need to go to this shout out.

And I went and I had almost an anxiety attack. Like I just was so in my own head. I was looking at everyone else, stressing about how I looked, what I was saying. And I immediately now hearing that advice, it's so, it's such good advice because you're so right. First of all, no one is looking at us as much as we're looking at ourselves and no one even knows we're having these spiraling thoughts. So if you're able to kind of outwardly start to focus on things that are in front of you, rather than yourself, it's one, it's a distractor,

but it's also just takes your energy. And I love that advice. And I did a video on the spotlight effect before, which again, I found fascinating when I first learned about it, because it's something we all do, right? It's something we all get wrong. So we all have this bias in the way that we think. And it's that we overestimate how much other people are looking at us and scrutinizing us. We all get that wrong. And people with social anxiety tend to do that more of the time. And so just being aware of that, that actually people aren't really, you know, they're all scrutinizing themselves, but they're not spending so much, you know, the only time that we get that right tends to be when we are on stage performing which can make it kind of I guess more tricky

for for people like yourself you know when you're in the public eye you suddenly uh it changes things and you start to wonder how much are people looking at me do these people know about me or what do they think of me and and so it kind of complicates everything. We all really are. There is that spotlight effect and you're constantly thinking about whatever your anxiety is in that moment, at that event, in that social setting. And if you realize for a second, like, Hey, what you're feeling, all the people in front of you are also feeling in some capacity about themselves. So do you have time to think about someone else? No. Cause you're so stressed. Guess what? Everyone else in the room is feeling that way. So they're even focusing on you. That's a really, I love that concept and that strategy. What if someone, so now they're going

out, they're trying to be social. What if someone realizes that they constantly need to have a glass of wine or two before a date or a social event in order to loosen up and ease their nerves is is that problematic I think it can be for lots of people and so I think a really good way to come at it is probably um to sort of the urge is to go down the judgment route but I would park that and always come back to curiosity again is is kind of looking at not so much is the drink good or bad, but why do I feel the need for that? What am I trying to sort of push down or cover up with that? You know, what feeling is it numbing? And why is that feeling there? You know, if it's nervousness about social situations, what's that about? Is that new? Is that old? old has it always been there what do I think that

might be about this is the kind of work you would do in therapy where you would just unravel it and work out what is going on there because the initial problem isn't the alcohol the alcohol is an attempt to cover up a problem or to make it better but essentially it's a terrible coping strategy because it works in the short term so it it's very addictive, but it keeps us stuck in the long term because then, you know, you go to a social situation, you have a few drinks, you instantly feel more confident and more relaxed. And then the next time you have to go to a social event, you increase your feeling that you need to use that tool again. So you lose confidence over time rather than gaining it, because then you start to think, I can't imagine going to a social situation and not being able to have a drink because what other coping strategies have I got? Whereas in therapy, we would work on other coping strategies you could learn that you've then got for life. So that whether you're

offered a glass of wine or not, you don't feel you need it. It's an addition, but you've got enough tools that you can cope with whatever situation you're in. That's really interesting because immediately as you were speaking about that, it made me think of aside from alcohol or drugs, what if someone begins to realize that they only feel comfortable going out in group settings if their partner is able to accompany them, is that an issue? It can be because you, you create this sort of dependency. And again, you know, where you think the sort of alcohol is giving you confidence, you put your partner on that pedestal. So I can only go out when they go out. So it creates this sort of dependency on the other person, which puts a strain, can put a real strain on a relationship.

And you're stopping yourself from building your confidence because you never get to experience going into that situation, having it go well, and then thinking, oh, maybe I can do this. Right. If that person's always there, then you always assume it was because they were there. When you reference it, having a strain on the relationship, can you elaborate a little bit for someone maybe that's struggling with that? If you're in a relationship with someone and it gets to the point where you can only go out with them, then that's going to restrict both of your abilities to have an independent life relative to each other.

If one or both of you needs to go out to work or you have children or, you know, one of you wants to have time alone or needs to go away with what, you know, it restricts your ability to live. And, you know, you're in a relationship to be partners and help each other. So that doesn't mean you can't depend on each other. But I think depending on someone is different than having a dependency on them. So, you know, ideally we want to be able to build someone up so that they feel strong enough to manage that in their life independently, but also to then have a true connection with someone that's not one that depends on them entirely for your ability to live a meaningful life. Yeah, that's really helpful. I also think

just in relationships, what would you say to someone if now we're talking about a friend dynamic and someone says to you, you know, my friend has social anxiety and it's constantly canceling on me and leave me like leaving me high and dry. Is this a reflection of our friendship and that they don't care about me? I feel like she can only blame her anxiety on so much yeah I think this is this is a really interesting one and and one I've kind of experienced and it's really difficult because the frustration can be real and there is a very human tendency to take things personally and to start to think is this me does this person like me am I getting something wrong is it that they're kind of trying to phase me out and they don't want to spend time with me?

So you start to sort of question. And then when you start to question yourself and feel vulnerable, the urge is to kind of bite back and think, oh, well, they're not putting enough effort in or they're not doing this. And then you can kind of create this disconnect between the two of you.

And, but I think if you have that kind of friendship where you understand that they do have struggles with social anxiety, then you can always kind of pull back and think, you know what, the anxiety won this time. And you can kind of remind yourself this person does want to have a connection with me, but they also have this struggle that they're working through. And it won't necessarily last forever, especially if they're working on it. And so it's hard to be, but I would always advise someone who really values a friendship to just be patient because that person is likely to, if they're working on it, to get through that and make changes later on and really value the fact that you were patient with them. But at the same time, I would also say, don't expect yourself to fix it for them. You don't have to be their therapist and you don't have to be responsible for bringing them a social

life if they're struggling with that. Because there's that kind of fine balance isn't there between saying, do you know what, forget it all. And then saying, oh, actually let's keep you up because I've got to fix you. That is so helpful. I've had people write in being like, I don't know what to do my partner. And it just, you're right. There's a balance of not being someone's therapist and being supportive in kind of in that same sphere. If a friend or a partner tells you that they're feeling anxious and you're trying to be there for them, like what are responses to avoid that could minimize their experience? I guess anything that kind of invalidates their experience. So the tendency, and it's, it's again, a very natural

human response, but when someone expresses an uncomfortable emotion and we start to feel that with them, the most natural human response to do something, anything to just make it all better and make everybody feel OK again. And so often those kind of responses where it's sort of like, oh, don't worry about it. Let's just move on. And let's change the subject or they kind of flatten it. And those kind of things where it's an attempt to minimize your own discomfort, they can often be seen as sort of invalidating responses and the person, the person can feel a

bit crushed. And, but at the same time, I also recognize that, you know, not everyone feels uncomfortable talking about things. And so it's okay, I think, to be that friend that supports in a way that doesn't involve talking about it all the time. You know, I know lots of people that I've worked with over the years, who have friends that they wouldn't necessarily talk about their problems with, but they so, so valued their connection time that was based on distraction and making them laugh and, you know, doing things on the, you know, sort of frequently and regularly that they could depend on and gave them a bit of time out from how they're feeling. So it's okay to not talk about it, but if someone is expressing it, I would say, hold back on judgment, hold back on trying to squash it and just allow it to be

there. Focus on being curious and trying to understand and just communicating to them that it matters to you if they're not okay. Yeah. If, you know, I've heard about like high functioning anxiety and how some people talk about how they feel it actually can help them achieve their goals and get things done. Can that be problematic for someone with high functioning anxiety? Yeah. So high functioning anxiety is like a term that has been sort of swimming around the internet has, it's been all kind of socials and stuff. And it's not a clinical term and it's not a diagnosis, but I think it's a term that people have been using to kind of

express that, you know, there are lots of people out there who deal with high levels of anxiety all the time, but they function really well day to day. So it doesn't necessarily stop them from living the life that they want to live. Often it can be an expression of, you know, an unhealthy lifestyle. So, you know, if there is overworking. So it's kind of interesting to me, it gets my kind of therapist ears up when someone might say that maybe anxiety helps them live the way they want to or helps them achieve. Because I would always see that, you know, it's hard work that helps you succeed. It's not the anxiety. The anxiety will hold you back, essentially. So it's a misconception that you can, you can be driven by that threat response, but that essentially will lead to anxiety and depression, where you can be driven by a sense of self worth, and a sense of passion, which is a very different experience, you still succeed,

and you still work hard. But it's a much more enjoyable process so yeah that kind of gets me all kind of oh loads of questions around wow what was it how much is that really really helping you so yeah I think even even perceiving anxiety to be that way could yeah be detrimental yeah someone maybe that's listening and was like okay I currently either I'm not in therapy or there's just reasons that they can't access those resources. Today, is there a way that you can provide some like simple ways that someone could calm anxiety in the moment that they can keep with them moving forward when they go out in the world and social settings, et cetera? Yeah, I think my absolute favorite and probably something that I'll often teach people within

the first few sessions, because often people would come with anxiety and panic or say, okay, but therapy is going to take ages. What can I do now between now and next week? And the quickest thing to learn is, is the breathing technique and it's the quickest response. So when you're anxious and you're starting to panic, your breathing will get really fast and shallow. So it's like a, and you can actually almost kind of generate that anxiety response if you start doing that over time. And so your heart and your lungs are connected.

And if you slow your breathing down and you change the way you breathe, you're going to change your heart rate as well. And if you slow your heart rate, that slows the whole response down because your, your heart is fueling the whole thing. So I would say no shallow breaths. It's the big, deep breath. So take a deep breath, then take one other small breath and then do a long out breath, try and extend the outburst. You're breathing out for longer than you breathe in for. So it doesn't matter, you know, we used to do like seven, seven in 11 out kind of thing, but you can, it doesn't matter what your numbers are. Just try and do a long out breath. So you're slowing the whole thing down. So I would do a kind of, and, and just keep doing that. And really only have to do that for sometimes 30 seconds couple of minutes and

it really shifts I will use that all the time if I'm nervous for something that's the one thing I will use if I'm able to I will also use music actually which is some people like that some people don't but you can really shift an emotion state with the right music I think you have to choose it really carefully but the breathing will really start to bring that heart rate down. And then also you can do kind of reframing as well, which probably takes a bit longer to learn, but you're using the language that you use to reframe something from a threat to a challenge or, you know, fear to excitement. So fear often has similar symptoms your sort of bodily reaction is similar to that feeling of excitement it's your body getting ready for something it's

just how you frame it in your mind is how you then categorize that for example when I did sort of more recently I've been doing a few things on like live tv and stuff like that and you'll have that moment before where you think this could be awful and then I'll always try to shift that from this could be awful, but this is a great challenge and trying to kind of shift the language and how I describe what is coming up at the same time as breathing. That always, yeah, is a key for me. How do you combat feelings of anxiety when in three days, let's say this person is having a conversation with their boss to quit their job and they're feeling really anxious about it. How does someone manage anxious feelings leading up to a conversation like that? I think there's probably a couple of things. And, you

know, one is to be as prepared as you possibly can in terms of knowing what is it I need to do? How do I want to do that? How do I want to show up for it? But also be really clear on why. Why am I doing it? Why am I putting myself through this? Why is it so important to me? Because when we have that clear sense of why we're doing something, if it's based on your

values and it's going to lead to a more fulfilling life, then it's easier to face those fears when that's happening. And so, you know, arming yourself then with the, okay, how exactly am I going to do this? Even when people are kind of, you know, nervous about going to see a doctor and how am I going to, you know, fit everything in and say all the right things at the right time in just five minutes, write it down, prepare it, get everything, you know, it's okay to do that kind of work because then you don't have to try and depend on you know memory to kind of get through these really difficult moments when anxiety might hinder that so you know do all the prep work but then you know once all that's done and you're

really clear on what I need to do and why but now I've got three days to go and I'm worrying about it. The key is to stay present that, you know, the worrying about it now and through these three days will do nothing to change the event other than probably make you more anxious. So it's all about staying in the present and do it, focusing on the now in whatever ways you can to get through and to stop that anxiety from rising and rising and rising. And I remember doing this actually when years ago, my son had quite big operation and we knew it was coming and I could feel myself in a few days leading up to, and all I had to do was kind of create this list of, I know what I need to do to prepare. And I know what my jobs are each day. And I'm just going to focus on those each day that each day is my focus of what needs to happen today or the next hour, the next two hours.

And then, you know, you can focus on the next step in front of you, but if you look up at the whole mountain, that's just way too much. So narrow your focus. That's such good advice because I think there's something that you said that really hit me about like writing it down and being prepared. I think a lot of people, I remember my mom always gave me this advice. I've had to have, as we all have, really difficult conversations, whether it's with a coach, whether it's with a professor, whether it's with your boss. And there's something my mom would always say of like, bring notes and tell them, hi,

I brought notes. I wanted to be prepared for this meeting. And even if you want to share, I was nervous. I didn't want to forget anything. There's no shame in coming prepared and having notes for a conversation that you know is going to be hard for you. What you don't need to pretend like I memorized this off the top of my head. Obviously you can't do that for like a test in school, but in life, if there's no shame in having your notes and being prepared, because it also will make you feel comfortable and make you feel safe because you have all the prep work right in front of you that you did. And it can hopefully help your anxiety. I know it's helped me. That's great advice. If someone finds a K me, if someone finds that when they go to bed at night and they're trying to go to sleep

that is when they're the most anxious worrying about everything they have to do the next day the next week this year what do you suggest at night time people do yeah right our brains have that ability to just switch on let's think about everything you've never thought of before but need to worry about now yeah and it's it kind of is a real big problem for people because as soon as you're not sleeping then the rest of your health deteriorates as well so the most helpful thing that I find is a worry list and it's because it's just so simple as well but you know half of it is that idea that I need to be worrying about this right now and solve this worldly problem right now before I go to sleep and and you know three hours in you're still thinking about world peace or whatever and you know it's kind of you know and all I do is I just keep a pad of paper by my bed with a pen

and if something comes up and I can feel it kind of churning over and then I'm not going to sleep I would just jot it down like a you know a few words bullet point whatever and then leave it but that note that becomes a commitment like a promise to myself I am going to make time to think about this in the light of day tomorrow, when I can think clearly about it, I can genuinely work on solving it or work out whether it's not solvable. And so I can kind of, you know, let it go. You're much more able to do those things during the day when you can really sort of think things through. That's so helpful because I think a lot of us need to hear that because it's like, no, I'm just going to do it right now. And it's like, if anything, I feel like the feeling of anxiety is exacerbated by

the concept of everyone's asleep. I'm supposed to be asleep. And you keep looking at the time and then you're spiraling. And it's like, just do it in the morning. Nothing is happening between then and then. So that's great advice. The term Sunday scaries has recently become extremely popular and it's associated with anxiety. Why is anxiety often exacerbated at the end of a weekend, especially if drinking has been involved? Yeah. So if drinking is involved, then that can absolutely be associated. And that would be my first sort of like, what's going on there. But because, you know, alcohol will lead to, you know, it's a depressant, so it will actually lower your mood, and you're likely to feel low in mood after drinking, and also more prone to then feeling anxious. So if that is part of the weekend,

and then you're feeling anxious I would definitely make that connection and think about kind of shifting that but also you know I think it's normal as well like if you have a really active week and you're really kind of energized throughout the week and then you kind of crash at the weekend and you just have a kind of very slow weekend you've then got this shift from being totally relaxed to knowing I've got to re-energize tomorrow. And it can create that sense of dread, you know, like almost like you get with a workout. If you're really relaxed and you're in bed, you think, can I go and run 10K? No, absolutely not. Yeah. Like your brain is like, no, keep resting. So you kind of, some of it can be that dread of

like a shift into being energized again. And sometimes that's just a, you know, you want to use that skill of like acting opposite to the urge. So the urge is to stay in bed and be all snuggly. And sometimes it's like act opposite to the urge to just get energized. And then, you know, you're going to feel better. Like if you know, you feel good generally during the week, but it's just hard to shift into that, then you know it's just a hump to get over. But if there's something going on in your week that you're dreading, that's making you feel stressed and anxious because it's not a happy week and it's not good for you, then that's something to look at with a bit more curiosity, I think, and think about how can I make adjustments there so that I don't have to live

in dread of each week. Absolutely. Last question is when someone is experiencing symptoms of anxiety, at what point do you recommend that they seek professional help? I would say any time for anyone who has access to it. I mean, that's half the battle, isn't it? Is is depending on what country you're in and things like that, being able to access someone. But anyone who has that ability to any time that you are concerned about your health and your mental health, ask the question, you know, seek, seek the support. And, and I think about this with, with physical health, that anytime that something's going on with your body that you're not quite sure you go and ask the question, right? You go to the doctor and you find out and you, and they help you come to a conclusion about what might be going on. Like as soon as you feel out of your depth with it and you know that something over the counter isn't going to help, then, then go and find out and and I think it's exactly the same with mental health or at least

it should be that if at any point you feel like you could benefit from some extra support here or you know another brain on this then go and do that for yourself because the benefit is just huge and and it's okay I mean I've worked with lots of people where we the deal is we do an assessment and we work out is this for you and it's okay if it's not or if if actually you're doing okay keep going with this this and this and then you know see you later kind of thing so it's okay for that to be the conclusion you don't have to engage in a year of therapy just because you've gone for consultation it's so I can't thank you enough for coming on because there's I mean I feel like it's a universal feeling and at times I think with social media and everyone giving different opinions it can be a little overwhelming of like where do I I start? What do I do? How do I tackle this? I'm

unhappy. I feel like I can't get ahold of this. And the fact that I feel like today you came with very practical, tangible advice that really just starts and ends with yourself of retraining your brain. And again, it's so much easier said than done, but just having those couple tools that you gave us today, I feel already personally, like I'm going to take something from this because it is an isolating, weird feeling that there is shame around it. And sometimes it almost makes it then worse. And so I can't thank you enough for what you're doing because it is so, so helpful. And it's going to be so helpful to all my listeners. Thank you. And that was the whole reason that I got started really. Cause I sort of, I mean, we talked about introverts and stuff like that. That's me. I was, you know, in my therapy

room with one person at a time and I was happy with that, but I just felt like there's so much useful stuff in therapy that people learn, like educational material that people learn and find life-changing. I just felt like I couldn't keep that hidden. I had to sort of make it accessible to people. So all of my videos are really around and the book and stuff is all around sharing that really useful set of tools that people can use. Dr. Julie Smith, thank you so much for coming and calling our daddy. It was truly a pleasure. Thanks for having me. you