Call Her Daddy - Penn Badgley: Dan Humphrey vs Joe Goldberg

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

Join Alex in the studio for an interview with Penn Badgley. Penn opens up about his early insecurities, his take on casual dating, and his unconventional approach to fatherhood. He also reveals how he really feels about his most iconic roles: Dan Humphrey (shoutout to those sideburns) and Joe Goldberg. Enjoy!

What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy. Penn Badgley, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Hello. Thank you. I'm so happy you're here. So you said this is not normally what you would wear. Is this what anyone would normally wear? No. What would you usually be wearing? I mean, just my clothes. Yeah. Like jeans? Sweats? No, no, no. I mean, no. I would wear, I would wear, so I mean, the real answer. I have like three pairs of pants that I wear on rotation. Two of them are in all of the TikToks I've ever made or in any of my pocket. I mean, it's just there's green pants and there's gray pants.

Okay. Everyone that follows you is like, oh, the green pants, I know the green pants. So I think I got them right before the pandemic. This is true. And then, you know, fatherhood, pandemic, the fact that my job, I'm never wearing my own clothing when I'm working. I mean, you know what they are?

They're J.Crew, unpaid. I wouldn't ever. He's a J. Crew boy. I'm not a J. Crew boy at all, but they're just pants, you know? Okay. Love that for you.

They're just pants. Yeah. Your wife is pregnant. Yes. With twins. Yes. Are you ready? Who could be?

This, yeah, as ready as we could be. When you found out that you were having twins, what was the reaction and emotion? We really got to stretch for this coaster here. I know, I'm like, I fucked up. I'm trying to stay. No, I fucked up. Yeah, no, it's okay.

I fucked up. It's okay, it's okay. Okay. Okay, reaction. Well, so my wife is a doula. So, birth is a big part of our world. You know, for me, a 38 year old man, I think I'm probably, you know, I happen to be, birth is just, it's like, it's in my, you know what I mean? So, so actually when we thought we

were just going to have one and we were close to being like, no, we're good. You know, we were, we were close. Then we decided, no, you know, let's try it. And I think we thought maybe one would be, you know, we know what it is. We have two, we're surrounded by children and people who are having children. That's just kind of, I think it was like we knew like, yeah, it's gonna be a lot,

but it felt like a known quantity. And then it was just, it was like, oh, this is how it will be very new. Here we go. Yeah. Yeah, adding two. Yeah. You guys are gonna do incredible, but you're brave.

Yeah, no, I mean, it's great. I mean, actually, to be honest, like when we see the sonograms right now seeing them together So first of all as an only child You know, it's very touching to see them already. So together. They're so together. They're just like There was one shot of them where they look like they were just hanging out in a hot tub because they both were like up like this Or at least in the sonogram. I don't know which direction was north or south here

because it's its own world. But they looked like they were having a nice time. But they looked like they were just, they were sitting across from each other. Just like talking shit. And just sort of like twitching. I mean, they're in a different position every time we see them.

What do you think is your best dad quality currently? What comes to mind is listening and then saying, I'm sorry. You know, those are two things that I think fathers are not, you know, when men are getting a lot of shit. And these days, when are they not?

Am I? I'm, but you know, men can be good people. They can be great people. They can be great dads. And these days, when are they not? But you know, men can be good people. They can be great people. They can be great dads. Dads can be great. And unfortunately, there are enough of us who have shown us otherwise, right? But fathers can be great.

And I think, but what we do not attribute to a father much, I think, is saying something like, I'm sorry, and really listening, and you know what I mean? Yeah, I think that's almost baseline. People are like, oh no, just go to your mom if you have a mom, because the dad's not gonna listen. So I think it's nice that you're acknowledging.

I'm trying to be opposite there. Just in those, at least, I mean, look, there are other things that I do. It's not like I can only listen and say, I'm sorry. That would imply I'm just constantly messing up and basically. I know, I'm like, damn, you're just constantly saying, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. I hear you and I'm sorry.

That's also what you have to do to your wife. That's whenever I'm having a problem with my husband, he'll be like, what was I even thinking? I'm so sorry, I love you. I've learned better. I like, what was I even thinking? I'm so sorry, I love you. I've learned better. I like what was I even thinking, that's nice. Okay, your podcast obviously focuses on people's middle school experiences, so I kinda wanna go back

a little bit today with you. Yeah, sure. Let's go back to yours. How would you have described yourself as a kid? That's actually, I've thought about this. I'm not sure exactly how I saw myself. I think, well, what I can be sure about is that I was in that particular period of 12, 13, 14,

I was a bit horrified by like, very, very, very self-conscious, very, extremely self-conscious. About what? I mean, probably mostly the way that I looked and then also the way that I sounded. So those are the two. How did you sound?

Well, before my voice changed, like anybody, I had a bit of a high and nasally voice. And so also I moved to LA to become an actor when I was 12. So I was simultaneously pursuing this career. And I mean, I had no idea what I was getting into, but I think that made me self-conscious. I think a lot of people go through this and a lot of times it just is what it is. I was pretty chubby and there was a period where I was fat, you know? And that happened to have a big impact on the way I felt about myself, it did, it really did. Because did you feel that way when you were alone

or was it a lot of people saying things about you? Because I feel like when you're at that age, it's always like kids are gonna make you realize things that you're like, wait, my parents made me think I was great. Yeah, yeah, well, and for me, you know, the truth is, like I was a pretty constitutionally skinny kid and it was this period where my parents' marriage

was falling apart. We lived, we were really isolated. We lived in the middle of, we were on a mountain in, outside of a town called Issaquah in Washington state. It might be quite developed now, but in the mid nineties it was not. And, uh, we had, we had moved very suddenly from

the East coast, very far away. So, uh, so, and my cat died on the third day of moving there, just didn't come home. So I was like eight, I think. And, um, and I was just, you know, had no social outlet vibe at home was, uh, yeah, it was, you know, had no social outlet. Vibe at home was, yeah, it was, you know, what happens when divorce is like quite needed. So yeah, I was sad as kids can be,

I think as many kids are as you're kind of coming into your consciousness. But also I feel like, cause I talked to my mom about this a lot because she was an only child and her parents didn't have a great relationship. So I feel like it makes you grow up pretty quickly because you are like,

it's almost like you're one in three adults, it feels like immediately. Yeah, that part definitely. Which is not normal. Yeah, well, or I mean, it's normal for, you don't know what's not normal. Yeah, so being an only child from your experience growing up, like what, how would you have described your relationship with your parents?

That's an interesting question. Cause I, cause from 12 years old on my memories feel a bit void of parents, even though my mom was present. I mean, I moved with my mom to LA. In fact, when I visit here now, it's surreal when I'm in places that I used to be when I was very young. So you moved when, and your parents got divorced

around the time that you moved here for acting? And did your dad stay? Yeah. And your mom picked up and left with you? Yeah. I mean, a lot of actor kids, this is the case. Cause like, why is a kid gonna truly pick up and leave with one parent?

Like what's, you're not leaving like a flourishing family life behind. So that tended to be the pattern. Is there like a core memory that comes to mind when you think about like a moment from your childhood where you remember being like, oh, my parents don't have the healthiest relationship? Yeah, I mean, it's so early, so early.

I don't even know. When I was 14 I I saw my My parents dance together was long after they've been divorced It was a function for a show I was on it's like a And they danced together for one song. And they sort of hugged. But what it was, it demonstrated a closeness that I didn't realize until years later when I was like, why do I remember this and think about it every now and then?

Because it made me uncomfortable. It made me feel a type of way that I couldn't identify. But that is to say they demonstrated a closeness that I had never seen them have. There are two people who they came together like their parents and the parents, they're a generation where they had so little modeling of like, not only did they not have modeling, they didn't have, um, like the consciousness that we have now around, you know, relationship dynamics, like listening and I'm saying, I'm sorry. You know, like there was, these things didn't exist. Um, you know, they just, they like,

it's amazing that they stayed together long enough to have me and that they were like, yeah, and also let's keep doing that. They don't have a good answer for it. That's really interesting about the dancing thing because I feel like I've talked to people before who are like, I literally, because obviously you either replicate

or try to do the opposite of what you watch your parents do from a young age. So for you to like watch a form of intimacy at 14 years old and be like, what are, this is so strange to watch them dance and like hug and be cordial. Like when you were younger, did you ever have romantic relationships

that you felt comfortable being overly affectionate? Yeah, well actually, so this is, I think, at least for boys, I don't know. I know that it's not just me. I mean, I actually was, because I was starved for many kinds of intimacy, the one kind that I understood, didn't understand it, was sexual and romantic intimacy. So I mean, I think as soon as those, I was gonna try to think of a word other than juices,

but you know, those chemicals were flowing. That's when I just craved that, and again, show me a teenager who doesn't really. I mean, I think it's of course quite typical. But I think particularly for people who grow up in homes where there isn't a lot of intimacy, I think what they crave is that, you know, you crave what you see in the notebook or whatever, and we didn't have that then, but the Titanic.

You know, I'm not a romantic movie or a romantic comedy person at all. Really? Feels like you are, Ben. But see, but the Titanic you know I'm not a romantic movie or romantic comedy person at all but but see but the Titanic or no it's a Titanic isn't it it's not the Titanic Titanic Titanic like I loved and I didn't see it a bunch of everybody did but I just thought like I could good lord I wanted that you know that you want you love comes in so many forms, so many forms, and it's actually tragic for us all that we have conflated it so completely with just sex, but you know, I mean, from a very young age,

that's what I wanted. I think that also makes sense because, because you didn't have anything like that at home. Then I think once you taste it and you like feel it, okay, where these analogies are. The juices. The juices. Let me just go ahead and reach over here for my tea and bring it on the long

trip around. Bring it, fuck. But I think then once you probably felt that you're like going to crave it because it's like, I can't get any of that at home. Whereas maybe someone like was like, okay, I've seen it. I know it's out there again, where once you've had- I'm gonna go right there, I want that thing. Yes, yes.

Now being a father, I'm curious if there were any behaviors that you witnessed as a kid in your house that you never want your kids to experience. Yeah, well it would be just the, it would be the, the vibe, there's the, calling it coldness, it feels a bit unforgiving to my parents, it's not, cause that sounds like there's intent behind it,

you know, an awareness, but it's just, there wasn't a lot of just a just a there wasn't a lot of life at home. There wasn't a lot of life. But I get what you're saying. I also think it's like as you get older, I'm sure you've realized like it's weird when you have resentment of your childhood. And then as you become a parent.

So I've heard it's like, oh, wow. They were all they were really doing the best that they could. And it doesn't mean that you didn't experience what you experienced, but it also puts more in perspective. Like it wasn't so fucking personal. Sometimes, I can't speak for everyone's experience. Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's of course

plenty of nuance in there, but the basic principle you're pointing to is what I was saying, like that's all it is. It's like you're constantly, as a parent, you're constantly being brought in touch with, oh, yeah, I didn't have that. I mean, I've said this elsewhere a few times, but the first time that I felt that I needed

to say I'm sorry to my now four and a half year old, I think he was three, maybe freshly three. It was a minor moment. He would not get in the car seat, as any parent knows. Anybody who hasn't had kids is like, oh, shut up about the fucking car seats. Yeah. Is it really? Yeah.

It's like, yeah, it can be hard. It's a battle. It's really, and by the way, it's reasonable for them to not wanna get in a car seat. They're strapped in, they can't, and if they think it's gonna be two hours, like to them, that's a lifetime. That is a lifetime.

You see how many phases a kid, a three-year-old goes through in two hours. You want them to sit strapped in the entire time. Good luck. I mean, so I'm with three-year-olds on this, but I had to get him in in and I started to get impatient, you know, go figure. And, but the key thing to remember were for me,

like fatherhood, parenthood until about two and a half, it was like, in terms of losing my patience, like it didn't happen. It didn't happen. I'll lose patience with my wife. Hi baby, sorry. Love you. Love you so much.

But with a child that small, I mean, they're just like, what are you gonna do? So I noticed that I was losing my patience in a way that was like, I was speaking to him in a way that I'd never spoken to before, which is kind of short, you know? Like a little dickish, you know? I mean, he, let's not talk about his behavior.

Dick of the century, okay? He was being crazy. But he's allowed to be. Yeah, he's three. You gotta keep it together. You're the adult. Yeah, so I was starting to, like I was starting to take it like as though he's not three and that's what we all do His parents eventually you lose perspective and you're like treating them like somebody who's much older and that's not fair

That's not fair to them at all So I was being really impatient with him Getting him into the car seat. I don't at this point. I don't remember what I I I think I definitely wasn't being like You know, I wasn't doing that, that's a bit rough, but I was speaking in a way that was just, you know. Not as loving dad as you usually are. And then I think I realized that as I was doing it, because it was a new thing.

And I just said, I'm sorry. I'm being really impatient with you, aren't I? And then he just went, yeah. And it immediately broke. And I said, you're right. I don't like the way I was speaking to you. You still have to go in the car seat? Yeah. And I was like, would you two gotta get in the fucking car seat? No, no, no. Oh my God. It was really, it was like he relaxed.

So real though. Buckled him in. And you guys went on your journey. Yeah. See? But when this happened, I realized like, oh, you know, in terms of my mom, like, she probably, I don't know, I'm not sure.

But certainly in terms of my father, I think I, just their generation, the way they parented all of us, I was just like, oh, that was new. Me apologizing to a three-year-old as his father, I was like, that's new. Right, you're like, I taught myself that while my dad never taught me that. Right, and that was a beautiful moment.

That was like, you know. That is beautiful, because it means you're like changing generationally what you're gonna now instill in your kid. And then if he ever has kids, he hopefully will do that. Yeah. You though talking about going at 12 years old to Los Angeles with your mom, I feel like whenever people think about actors, you sharing, you know, you're like, I was chubby, I was going through it, my voice like, I was chubby, I was going through it,

my voice, like I was insecure. Then people would be like, so what the fuck are you talking about? Then you become an actor, like people associated with like actors who like love the way that they look and like to look at themselves. It's like a lot of vanity. But then I feel like in a beautiful way,

what are you talking about, Penn? No, but you know what I'm saying? And then I think the beauty of having podcasts like this is you learn things about most people get into the arts because it's a way to find themselves. Totally, yeah. A lot of times people pour themselves into it because they're running from something else.

Absolutely. So when you go to LA, were you still quite insecure? Oh yeah, oh yeah. Well, the insecurity hadn't even really found its full expression until I moved here because I was 12. And, you know, I hadn't yet started making money in a livelihood, a practice, a craft that would come to depend more and more on the way that I looked. How did you even get into acting? So when we moved to that mountain outside of Issaquah, having lost my cat, wasn't enrolled in school because it was the end of the school year, and so the long summer was ahead of us.

Again, parents, like not the tightest. My mom clearly saw like, oh, this is, Uh, my mom clearly saw like, Ooh, this is, we need something, you know, we need like neighbors, our, our, our closest neighbor was a mile away, like our, our, um, driveway was like two dirt tracks up there. It was like a real mountain. That's why the cat died. There's cougars and bears and all kinds of,

yeah, I mean, And you're an only child. You're sitting in a house, Your parents are basically mid divorce. You got no cat. Yeah. You're not feeling too good about yourself. Yes. Thank you.

So just, just to remind you. Thank you. No, putting it all together. It was awful. And then we need to find Penn something to do for the summer. So auditioned. I don't know what the competition was like. No memory of that. I got the role. Winthrop, a music man, it's a significant role. He's a boy with a lisp who's very quiet and shy.

I was very quiet and shy, but he comes out of his shell when he learns to play something in a band. So I loved just the camaraderie of, and mixed stages too, you know, it's like kids and adults and everybody in between. And it was, it was just like, it's not like going to school at all. It was, it was really, really exciting. It was, and on opening night, just getting that feedback, you know,

the excitement of being on stage, you know, it creates stakes and structure, which everybody I think needs a bit of to thrive. I loved it. I loved it. I actually said that night, like I want to do this for the rest of my life. You know, that little boy was not aware of all the implications, what it would take or there was even that it was ever feasible That it was actually delusional and like basically not feasible but yeah, so and and people very quickly and Why do they do this? I don't know but If you're in any town close to like a major city like a satellite for LA like there's Seattle

There's there's Florida, like Tampa, a lot of kids come from Florida. There's other places, maybe Chicago. But if you're in a certain town, people will say, you should try going to LA. I mean, it's not good advice. It's just not good. Why? Are you going to make it? You did. Are you going to? Yeah. I mean, it's, I'm not. You're like, I'm the 1% Alex. No, it's, it's a, but this is the thing though. It is to a degree of fluke. It just is.

You think? I'm not saying there's no talent involved. I'm just saying those of us who make it are something of the exception that proves the rule. Cause the rate of failure in this town is high. It's high. It's high. It's, it's a bit tragically high for people

who want to make art and want to do things, want to perform. And it's like, you know, it's a bit tragically high for people who wanna make art, and wanna do things, wanna perform, and it's like, you know, it's to me, it's not just, it's not a meritocracy, you know what I mean? I don't know what industry would be, but. When do you think you started making money off of it? I know when I did, I was 12. Oh, were you?

I started working that summer. Off of acting? Yeah. Was there a point in your life where you turned into the breadwinner for your family? Yeah, very early. How early? 15.

How did that shift the dynamic? I mean, so not the whole family. And I wasn't, I mean, my mom was fully capable of working, but she needed to be present, so it was like this dynamic. I mean, I was financially independent by 15. I wasn't always the breadwinner, and but then, you know, by the time, but like I've

always needed to and wanted to provide support for my parents since then. Yeah, that's really nice. I feel like you then kind of from what I've researched, like you went on to really do a lot of like the awkward nice guy roles, like pretty consistent. When has that stopped? I guess it hasn't stopped until you became a murderer, but- Yeah, but he's the awkward nice guy roles, like pretty consistent. When has that stopped? I guess it hasn't stopped until you became a murderer, but we'll. Yeah, but he's an awkward nice guy. No, he's, okay, yeah, that's actually fair.

There's kind of a through line, even though he's a fucking psychopath. But that through line is like pretty consistent, right? That's fair to say. Were you looking for those roles or did they naturally just come to you because it's a little bit of who you are? No, who wants to be?

No. Well, so here's the thing. those roles or did they naturally just come to you because it's a little bit of who you are? Who wants to be? No, well, so here's the thing. That's true starting at 20 years old. So I had eight years of near financial independence, professional work. I was working, I was tired of television by the time Gossip Girl came around. I famously said, I don't know famously But I've said many times

You know I initially turned the roll down and I didn't and I didn't just got kind of turn it down I mean I said I said so Grateful you thought of me. I wish you well but no thanks and they went on to try and cast the whole thing and cast Dan and and They and they and they evidently could cast everybody but Dan. So, you know, by the time, the point is not about Gossip Girl, the point is that by the time I was 20,

I was like, I was feeling real disillusioned and dried up and tired of being in Hollywood, of acting. I've been doing it my entire, since I was 12. When you're 20 years old and you've been doing something professionally since you were 12, that's your life. That's like your whole life. And I was, I was, yeah, I was. You were done because you didn't like it anymore?

That also, I just was not, you know, I came real close, really close to like a number of great roles in these great independent films and I wouldn't get them. And I was like, okay, great. But you know what? I really wanted to try my hand at music. That had been my passion since, you know. But the point is I was real... I had a tiredness about me at 20 that I think is not typical for a 20 year old because I've been working for so long. I feel like every time I've talked to like child actors, that's something that is lost I think in the way that we look at these young kids. Like I always look at like Lindsay Lohan.

I'm like, it's incredible how long she worked while all of us were picking our noses and being in school and doing fucking nothing, essentially, but just being a child. And so to have worked your whole youth and then into adolescence and then all of it, I'm sure you're like, I never wanna work another day in my life.

I'm so exhausted when you were supposed to be having fun, you were working. But then to turn down Gossip Girl is like, what now we know what a success it was, but at the time, like, were you also uninterested in the role that you were gonna play, or was it just because you were like, I'm so fucking tired, I don't wanna do this anymore?

With all due respect, and I mean, I told the creators this at the outset, so it's not, and it's not no shocker, like, I was not interested. And that's, you, so it's not, and it's not no shocker, like I was not interested. And that's, you know, that's just, I think that's fair to say, that's fair to say. That's what I have to say about that. Okay, so obviously-

You can ask me more, but I'm not gonna- No, no, no, no, you obviously ended up changing your mind, so like what changed? Well, I was close to broke. Although that was not, I was looking forward to like figuring that out. I'd had a pretty Spartan year behind me. I was like, I was enjoying my way of life, but the future was real unknown and I think, you know, it's not like I could go live with my parents for, there's mistakes. Mistakes is high, right?

So and you know, a few people, I mean, my manager certainly spoke about it in a way that he thought it was a good idea. Few key people close to me. And then it was New York City, getting to live in New York City where I've now lived since, which is my home and I'd always wanted to live there You know you also think about a show like that It's hard to grow beyond it I'm gonna be 40 next year. Wait, I'm 30

You lose track at some point. Yeah, we're Eight am I 38? I'm 30. You lose track at some point. Yeah, where are we? I'm 38. Am I 38? I'm thinking I'm 38. So I'm gonna be 39 this year. Next year, I will be 40. I will still be answering questions about this show I decided to do when I was 20. You know what I mean?

And whatever, that is what it is. Certainly, that's fine. But it sets you on a certain track that you have to in a sense resist. You have to learn how to work with it, interface with it. Otherwise it just sort of takes you on its ride. So you're kind of playing, you're taking a huge risk, I think, in a way, actually.

It's gonna set you up to do only some things and you're gonna have to fight to try and do other things. I think that's so understandable for people. I think people in this industry really get that and I think people that are consumers don't see that whatsoever. They're like, there are going to be people that watch this and then are like, Penn, what the fuck are you talking about?

You run the biggest show in the world. Like I will forever love you. Like, Oh my gosh, that show I rewatch every year. But to you, I think a lot of actors understandably have that. We're like, you don't want to be typecast into this, like one thing that people think of you as, right? Cause then you want to, you want to keep growing. Yeah.

You, yeah, you want to have some autonomy and you sign. So also signing onto a television show, what you do is you have to sign a six year contract, there's no other way to do it. You don't, you know, you haven't seen any of those scripts. You're just like, all right. So, you know, yeah, I mean, it's. Yeah. all right. So, you know, yeah, I mean, it's yeah, I mean, I chose to do it because it felt like it could be an exciting new experience.

And and I'm yeah, no, I mean, look, I'm grateful for it now. It took but it took some time because I because keep in mind, I started in a place where I was like tired, disillusioned. I was literally compared to the others like oddly, I was like tired, disillusioned. I was literally compared to the others, like oddly I was like a veteran, you know? And I was just kind of like, eh. Here we go. This fucking show.

I mean, I'd done like four series before that, you know? Okay, something that I love though, is I think what we, and this goes past acting, is like there are stages in your life where you have to have time to step away from it, to have any bit of love and respect for what you did at that time. There are people that look back at what they did in high school and they're like,

actually fucking stab me and kill me before you even bring that up, please look away. But then all of a sudden you look back and you're like, oh wow, with now more perspective and time, I like look back and I can see positives from that. So let's pay a little bit of respect to Dan. Yeah, yeah. We'll go back to the childhood.

I mean, how long we got? Childhood, no, no, no, we're gonna go back to it. We're gonna get into trauma, we're gonna get into all of it. Dan's gonna be a breeze. Dan is gonna be a breeze. You're gonna be like, let's talk more about Dan Humphrey. Rufus, okay, in what ways did you relate at all to Dan Humphrey?

I mean, it's not that hard. He's like, he's, isn't he kind of, he's not quiet, is he? Like he kind of was, but then- He's TV quiet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The same way he's TV like ugly and poor. He's the quiet, ugly, poor kid.

Like, okay guys, sure, sure, sure. Talk to me about the sideburns at the time. Oh my goodness. If I could have seen in real life the side of my head, I guarantee you, I would have never, never. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not just like give Dan his flowers. Let's give Young Penn a little bit of something here too. In the early 2000s, it was like bootcut jeans with the low rise waist. There's a look to a sideburn that I always wanted, like the second I could grow facial hair, which happened to be early, it was like I wanted them.

It was just an aesthetic thing that's like, I only see my face from here. I only see just this little bit of contouring. It gives me some age. Have a baby face, always wanted to look older. Now those sideburns, why didn't anybody say- They were so large and thick and the width. Well, and by the way, I didn't like do that. That's the way they are.

Yeah, yeah, but they were kind of like pronounced because you didn't have a beard. It just sat. Because I had to shave every day on that show. You know, it's like, I was never allowed for gradation or, or, or a little bit of growth. So it's like, look, this is me starting to shave here. To the point though, that someone could assume that they were a prop.

Like you stuck those bad boys on every day. No, they were so pronounced. I mean, who allowed that? So many people allowed that. It looked amazing. I definitely focused on it quite often in like the first season, that shit was popping. Oh my God. Okay, so we relate a little bit to him.

How are you different than Dan? I mean, in every way. Yeah, fuck him. We love Dan. Do you? He went through his phases where I would be like, fuck him. We love Dan. Do you? He went through his phases where I would be like lonely boy. Like I do love you now. And then I'd be like, Dan, shut the fuck up.

Like when he dated Georgina, I was like, you're so done in my eyes. I hate you. Can I ask why? I'm like, it's Georgina. And meanwhile, you're like, Serena, like I love her. She's great. And I wanted to just, but then you came back around.

To be honest, I can barely remember those storylines. Like there's a lot of them. I'll walk you through them. Don't worry. We've got a lot here. There's a lot of them. Who's worse, Dan or Joe? Well, that's not, I mean, it's Joe.

I'm sorry. Was, was, was Dan masturbating in the street and strangling women? I'm sorry to say it so like pronounced, but I mean, why do, why am I, every was like, he needs to chill. I'm like, no bro, bro, you watched it. It's what he does. Why, why when I say it, is it worse than watching it happen? The worst Joe did, or what's his face?

Dan, the worst Dan did was. What's his name? Shut the fuck up. The worst Dan did was, I mean, he did like, what he did was sociopathic just in terms of being gossip girl. Sorry. Yeah. No, actually sociopathic.

Can we talk about that? Yeah. Where were you, what were you wearing, where were you sitting or were you standing? What was the energy in the room when you found out you were Gossip Girl? I was in the hair and makeup trailer room. Don't remember what I was wearing. JFK was not assassinated on that day.

It was just me being Gossip Girl. But I remember just being like, I can't like, huh. Okay. Like if I'm trying to, I'm trying to math it, it's tough. All right. And we've got to shoot tomorrow. Cool.

Okay. You know, I mean, I found out real late, real late. You have to tell me who you think should have been gossip girl You have to tell me Who you think should have been gossip girl?. It wouldn't have made sense for anybody. We all wanted it to be Dorota. Without a doubt. Dorota would have slapped.

They needed it to be a series regular. Sorry. What about Rufus? Series regular. That little. They needed it to be one of the core six. Otherwise, nobody cares. Oh my God.

You get to call yourself one of the core six. I am. I'm sorry. That's like a badge of honor. I'm not just the core six. Otherwise nobody cares. Oh my God. You get to call yourself one of the core six. I am. I'm sorry. That's like a badge of honor. I'm not just the core six. I'm gossip girl, baby. I didn't write it. It's on the wall like that.

You are daddy. I am gossip girl. These are facts. Okay. Facts. That's just like the promo right there. It's a sound bite. Yeah.

Thank you. I just gave you, I just gave you everything you wanted. Thank you. You're welcome. Okay. Thanks. That was just like the promo right there. It's a sound bite. Thank you. I just gave you everything you wanted. Thank you, thank you. You're welcome. Okay, wait. When I interviewed Nader Chabald, AKA Chase Crawford, he told me that he and Ed Westwick

would throw these rooftop parties at their apartment. Did you ever get invited and did you ever go? Did I get invited? Of course, it wasn't like they were sending out invites. Yeah, I mean, but I didn't go much. I was not a partier. Okay, what were you doing during your rise to fame in New York City?

Just sitting at home. Yeah. Good question. Just had a different friend circle. Okay. I did. What were you doing? Would you go out? Good question.

I mean, it didn't go out as much. Where did you live? Gramercy. You weren't going to One Oak? I did go to One Oak way after everybody. I'd heard about One Oak a lot. I remember the first time, okay. Okay.

I remember the first time that I had to pay for a bottle. And this was years later, years, years, years later. I took somebody out. They really wanted to go out. They're from Thailand, right? They like, they wanted to party like they saw. And I was like, okay, we'll go. I go to someplace, I don't even remember the name of it.

I've been too many times. I bought a bottle and I was like, I'm sorry, come again? What? Wait, whoa. You know that meme of the guy being like, in the math, just playing like this? I guy being like, and the math was flying like this? I was just like, so not only have I been getting free bottles my whole 20s, completely unaware,

again, we're talking about upholding the artifice. This is, this is, I was just like, people pay for this, this much? And you could go to the grocery store and get a bottle of Grey Goose for like- It's criminal. I was like, yeah, I feel good about not having done this a bunch.

I mean, stunned me. It stunned me. I was like, people have to save up to waste it this quickly. I mean, good Lord. Wait, but did you have people like, as you had from Thailand, did you have people thinking because of your life in New York City, being this it guy, you had this access and this lifestyle

that you like weren't living in Gramercy? Yeah, certainly for gossip girls, certainly certainly because of. You know, the early 2000s celebrity city thing. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think, well, look, you know, and Crimean River, it's not a big deal. What I say is as a witness to it, not as a complaint, but I think one of the aspects of celebrity that you deal with constantly is just like,

everybody just thinks you're somebody or not. And, you know, again, so that's, so I think that's just like everybody just thinks you're somebody or not. And you know, again, so that's so I think that's just always. So how long did you do Gossip Girl? Six years. For six years, you're living in New York City, you're in your early 20s. And I feel like a lot of the character that you were being, you were kind of had parallels, right? You were like living in New York City. Sure. You were also living in New York City at the time for the show.

You were dating Blake Lively. You were dating Serena on the show. Did you feel like you were able to like separate your actual job from your reality and actually able to like grow in your 20s? Or did it all feel like it was kind of merged? I mean, that's a great question because it was the struggle.

You know, the difference between, there are many differences between film and television. One of them is that when you do a film, you do it once, you know, and you kind of give it your all and then you move on whether you want to or not you know you do when you're doing it constantly. Because of the nature of that show and because of celebrity culture at that time especially it was like, you know, I remember like, you know, suddenly the influx of interviews being asked about, like, I remember doing something for, you know, Cosmo Girl or something. That's a thing, right? It's not Cosmopolitan. Is it?

Oh, girl. Like it's like the younger version? It's not Cosmopolitan, is it? Oh, girl, like it's like the younger version. Yeah, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah. Like Teen Vogue, that just came out. You know what I mean? Like I remember doing interviews for those kinds of publications

and being asked about like, you know, dating advice or like, by the way, like, think I've been on one date in my life, like spent most of my time just sort of either in a relationship or not. And I remember just the feeling of not knowing, but it is this thing,

you feel like you're constantly, even though no one may be actually asking you to do this, you feel like you're constantly needing to prove yourself in some manner. Otherwise, what are you doing? What is the space? This kind of thing has evolved over the course of however long, but we didn't have podcasts like this back then where you could explore things at length and depth. They were looking for a quick sound

bite and it was just like, uh-huh, okay. Yeah. All right. Okay. All right. Uh-huh. It's like, you don't interfacing in that space can actually feel really crazy and you suddenly feel the need to perform and you're just like, why can't I just say something fucking normal, you know, like why can't, and so what starts to happen when you're in this one role for a long time, you know, the aspect of celebrity being a part of it, a huge part of it, there is not enough separation, I think, for anybody. You're seen as this person,

you're called their name out on the street. You also constantly have to be that person at work. And I was 20, I was 21, 22, so I didn't have the emotional maturity to understand, to how to differentiate myself, just in terms of self-worth. What people seem to think of Dan seem to be what people thought of me.

And now I had enough sense, enough intelligence, enough self-worth, enough just, you know, like I wasn't like losing myself, but it bothered me. Well, and I feel like that makes a lot of sense too, because even as you're saying that, I'm thinking about very specific people could look back at their time in like Hannah Montana, for example, that is the biggest mind fuck for Miley

where it's like you're playing yourself, but you're secretly a pop star and then you actually become a pop star. Like you guys were playing these characters that were actually physically living in New York City and it wasn't like you guys were like superheroes. It was like an actual thing that people could believe. You're like, excuse me, Dan again,

gossip girl bitch. But like, you know what I'm saying? It's like people, it's easier to believe the Friday Night Lights characters and the Wintry Hill characters. Like those were just normal characters that people could believe you are as opposed to this like, you're playing a doctor.

I guess even still Alan Pompeo was like, people went into fucking surgery because of me. But like people merge it too much. And so when you're walking and you're like, am I more like this or am I this character? It can get fucking confusing. Definitely. How did you approach your dating life in your twenties?

Okay, so going back to what we said earlier about that need for intimacy and really wanting a love that transcends the body truly. I mean, that's what we all want, but never had an approach. I've had a handful of long relationships and that's about the extent of it. I really did not try to found it,

I really did not date, tried, found it, not, what's the word, I don't even know, I mean, fulfilling, satisfying, I don't know, I was not good at what felt like dating is. Dating is a bit of a performance, I think, right? Isn't it? Like, I mean, it's initially, like that's, and I think that just like really stressed me out. I never had an approach. So trying to like, I really longed for that kind of connection, that kind of intimacy. I think just as anybody else, you know, kind of something that my show, You, has been about, which is like the, the,

the really toxic misconceptions we have, like modern love mythology, the way that a relationship should be, the way that you should feel, um, like it does to watch Titanic. You know what I mean? Like that, like, so I, so I wanted that. And so it's, so I also had a very long and difficult relationship in my teen years. That marked me and I actually remember thinking when I got out of it at 19, I was just like, that was a way to start it all. I wonder what effects it's gonna have on me. But then I found myself in my twenties, three different long-term relationships. The third one was with my wife and it's... Can we talk a little bit about modern dating culture? Because I know you're kind of saying

you have obviously very strong opinions. I don't know anything. The truth is I don't know anything about what it's like actually, but I can only speak as a person who hears about it. OK, casual dating. Yeah. What do you feel about that for people? Here's a platform upon which

to skewer yourself. Just go. Sure. Casual dating. What do you feel about that? For people? Is it ever casual? Show me somebody who really, really truly

is casual about it. I'll wait. I'll wait. Not that they act casual about it, that they feel casual about it. I'll wait. Please I would act casual about it, that they feel casual about it. I'll wait. Please, I would like to see it in the comments. I think that some women would ask back to you, Penn. I wish he didn't feel like it was casual.

I'm telling you that he doesn't understand the ways in which it is not casual for him either. Because he may just actually be like, oh, I don't like you. What about that? That whole thing. Yeah, that's sorry. So I, you know, I am sorry to women on that one.

I can't apologize for men, but I'm just saying like, that is the whole like, what is that too? Like he's just not that into you, that whole thing. That like, what is that? Okay.'s just not that into you, that whole thing. Okay, so if I venture something here, one of the reasons I didn't like dating was because of what it seemed like young men, boys, men need to sort of, how they need to behave and act, which always felt real corrosive and toxic and coarse and just calloused.

At a very young age, if I'm representative of anything that can be generalized, it seemed that it was important and necessary for me as a man to like, you know, it's such a dumb old term that so many young people will be like, what did you just say? But like, so your wild oats, you know, it's such a dumb old term that so many young people will be like, what did you just say? But like, so your wild oats, you know, that kind of thing. I don't know, what would you say now?

What would you, I sound like an 80 year old. What would you say? Wait, say that again? So, I'm not gonna say it again. You're like, okay, say it one more time for me, please. And make eye contact with the camera. Wait, I actually don't know if you said so. So your or ones.

So your oats. Your wild, it sounds so dumb. So your wild oats. When I have to say it slowly and break it down. No, now break it down, someone Google it. Yeah, so your wild oats, like to have sex with a lot of women. That's probably how they would say it.

Sure. To have sex with a lot of women. That's probably how they would say it. Sure. To have sex with a lot of people. With a lot of women. Yeah, like they're fucking around. Yes. Not the oats. It's more just they fuck around. Well, we think of it like this.

You're a gardener and you've got a handful of seed and you're just casting it out into the wilderness. Yes, okay. Now see, this makes more sense. Maybe someone will start saying that in Gen Z and you're gonna trend it back upwards. Okay, this is good. I might have that power.

Maybe. Maybe. Okay, so how do you feel about casual sex? Not now, obviously. Again, again, show me anyone who's able to have it. Truly, and I'm saying, I'm not just saying who does it. Yeah. Plenty of people do it. Show me someone who's actually, what about it as casual? What about it as casual?

Again, I'll wait. I think it's a great question to pose to the girls listening. Yeah. People obviously like always say relationships are hard. They're hard work. They're a lot of work. But what does that tangibly look like to you, to work on a relationship? I feel like you have to always be learning

new levels of listening. Because when you get past the, you know, it's anywhere from the six months to two year mark when the juices, so to speak, the chemicals have like sort of run their course. You may have had something that could be like wildly intoxicating. In some cases, that's true.

In some cases, it may be less or somewhere in between. But you know, studies show about six to six to 24 months that runs its course. Then you have to enter into a different kind of relationship. One that we don't see a lot. We don't see it modeled a lot, hardly ever. For reasons that have to do more with what it takes to tell a good story than reality in movies and TV and books and stuff. So then you have to think to yourself like, well, what is a relationship for? Not just like, what am I in this for? What is a relationship for? That's also a question I pose. What is a relationship for? Not just what is it doing for you? What is it? What is, what are relationships for, you know?

And at some point, I think you just have to realize that like you, what is it, what is, what are relationships for? You know? And at some point, I think you just have to realize that like you, you're developing your own narratives and biases that have to be kind of constantly reshaped, to reach, you know, you have to check in with them. And so it just means, it's just another level of listening. You, you know, you, and then once you get into parenting, it's, it's, it just adds like a level of complexity that's, that's really beautiful and rewarding.

So when you're parenting actually, sometimes it can be really practical stuff. We have to schedule time for any kind of intimacy we want to have. If we want to go out, that needs to be in that calendar. And you have to find childcare. It's all this stuff. It's very real. And that can actually be a B in that calendar. And you have to find childcare. You have to, it's all this stuff. It's like, it's, it's very real.

Um, and that can actually be a surprising amount of work. Like, cause I was going to ask, I know obviously your wife has a child from a previous relationship and when you were starting to date, that takes another level of commitment and stability. And like, how did you know that was

something you were ready for? Well, I didn't. And I mean, I think, so like the, when we first met, it was kind of, it was immediate. And before we had time to think, I think we just, we wanted to be together in the deepest way. And I wanted to be there for her son

in whatever way was best. His father's always been in his life. But then the cultural dating laws, which I never abide by, I never understood, but you were pressuring me. I was like, I need to sell my wild oats. What am I doing with this woman with a child? But I was 28, I think, maybe 27. And I really did think, is it right for me to be getting into a relationship with a woman who has a child. Like that, you know, so the stakes were always significant there. We both felt that. And so we both actually, after an immediate, intense connection and like, not thinking about it, we then sort of like, you know, we need to think about this more.

And what I only felt that I was ready once I felt confident to like, leave all that, all these notions about what it is to be a man, what it is to date, what I needed to do, who I needed to be sexually, once I was able to start really leaving that behind. That's beautiful. I also love like, just like hearing the way that you talk about your relationship.

It's so nice to hear, again, almost back to the way that you're parenting about like listening and apologizing and doing things that are like not typically what you would think like a man is leading with. I think it's really refreshing to hear because I know even you've talked about with your wife that you guys like early on in your relationship took breaks.

And I think like so much of what you've shared is quite helpful to people because I know there's people listening who are trying to figure it out and I think people obviously look up to you so when you're more open obviously with what you're comfortable, I think it's nice to hear when you are willing

to share that kind of detail about your relationship because I know that there's people like, holy shit, can I be a good mother or father to another child, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's, there's a spiritual component to this, which is really the thing that allowed it to happen. So she and I, we happened to sort of become sober around the same time.

We were picking up meditation and prayer and really trying to live with a different sort of framework, you know Independent of one another but this was happening kind of at the same time And I think that was what even created like the opportunity or the conditions for us to be like We're dealing with a lot of ways of thinking that are not our own Some of those ways of thinking are

putting a lot of pressure on us to conform in a way that we've seen before. To either be together in a way that we've seen or to not be together in a way that we've seen. And so and I think I think like maybe the world is ready for a lot of new relationships, like where people are discovering something. And I think in some way, like we did, we discovered something. Uh, like if I, if I had advice for young people in it, it risks being simplistic. You could take it a lot of ways and I guess it could be misused but like I think young people now we

waste a lot of time worrying about relationships rather than like being in them and trying. We waste a lot of time in fear and hesitation and trying to imagine what the other person's thinking like when is that ever going to happen? You don't know. You've never known. Stop trying to act like you've ever known. Never once have you read that person's mind. It's not gonna start now. I don't know. The way that relationships function, at least from a pop culture perspective, I think is so crazy dysfunctional. That's a good point. It's like definitely a, it's definitely become something that I think people almost like aren't even noticing. And it's like these games and it's like,

we don't have to do any of that. And I definitely felt like I did it. I was a part of the cycle. I was like in it heavy. That's how I literally started this show. It's just like. You don't say. Yeah.

Well, the name, yeah. I was like, Oh, we're going to flip it on its head and we're going to like do what men do to us. And then eventually when I met my husband. It doesn't make them happy either. Exactly. And then I literally met my husband and I was like, Oh my God, I'm literally not.

I'm going to call him daddy. Yeah. No. But not, sorry, not a, not a. Never. I will always. Scratch that from the record. Strike it.

Strike it. Take it out. I want to talk to you about you though, because I do think there's a lot of themes. Sure, the show. In it that are. It's all this. Kind of, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe is the embodiment of not realizing any of this. Before we get to that, is it true you also almost turned this role down? Yeah, it's my thing. Penn, what, why did you almost turn this down? Same reasons, different, different, you know? Are you overacting? Are we done?

Am I overacting? Is this your retirement podcast? Am I overacting? Yeah. I'm, no, I mean, I think if anything, I feel like I'm finally coming of age as an actor, maybe, we'll see. Well, this is the last season, so. Yeah, but I'm not done. You're going to keep going.

Yeah. Okay. So you, you eventually were like, yes, I'm going to do it. You said before that you think- I should say it was not such a resolute no. Okay. I was interested in the premise far more because it was, yeah, it was a different kind of role. I mean, people love to draw the similarities and I'm responsible for drawing some of them between Dan and Joe, but I mean, they're not the same like I like

Joe is the show he is the lens through which everything happens So being in that position is a completely different experience as an actor you get to do a whole lot more and because of The depths to which he goes there's just a lot a lot more of the spectrum to explore as an actor. So it was a, you know, I knew it was an incredible opportunity when I saw it. At the same time, I wasn't sure that I wanted to give expression to this kind of character

for an undisclosed period of time. Had it been a film, be like, all right, three to six months, done. I do though, as I was just listening to you say that though, it just made me realize like, I, was just listening to you say that though, it just made me realize, which is incredible for you as an actor, I do think this now is holding a light to Gossip Girl, where it's like, you now are really known.

You could be on one side of the street and someone's gonna know you as Gossip Girl, and then the other side is gonna be you, and I actually feel like that is the hardest uphill battle to, like we were just saying, to do, to have people not just think of you as one character. Yeah, so now I just want them to think of me as two. Now you got two.

Now we got- Gotta work on three. Dan and Joe. Yeah, yeah. Now we need another basic name for the third. Who's the third gonna be? Dan, Joe, N? Tim.

Tim, Jim. Matt. Matt. I said Tim N? Tim. Tim. Matt. Matt. I said Tim, but yeah. Carl. No, I hate that. That's not. Okay, a huge theme is obviously toxic masculinity.

How have you approached being a character that is like completely toxic? I mean, beyond toxic. Is it a weird head space to be in? Sometimes no. I mean, at this point, like, you know, I'm done, which is crazy by the way. Wow.

It became real easy, even early on, but easy even the way like, you know, you might be a marathon runner, but by the end of a marathon, you're like, I'm about to fall over, you know, that's the way it was easy. It was, I mean, he by the end of every season, by the middle of every season, I usually had back problems because all the expression of rage is just like a lot. It was like running. Yeah, it was like running a marathon is highly athletic every time.

Very physical, you know? A lot of, not a lot of speaking on camera. So a lot of just, you know, coming into my body, physicality of performance was really lovely to explore over the years. And then the voiceover was interesting too. Finding that. I feel like I really found it in the sixth episode of season one, where that episode was almost all voiceover and then silent acting. And I actually had a mask of prosthetics on because he'd been badly beaten

at the end of that, of the previous episode. Okay. So what was your question? No, he was just asking like, is it weird to get into this character that's like really fucked up? So actually I would say in some ways it's quite fun, there's levels to it. Day to day basis, kind of fun, kind of taxing, or it can be

very taxing, really interesting moments of strangeness that are fun to explore. Overall, it's been quite an endurance test in a way because of just the level of commitment that it takes. And then choosing to speak about them in a way publicly because of just the level of commitment that it takes and then choosing to speak about them in a way publicly, which I think like just adds a level of responsibility to the whole thing. So, you know, it's just it's like it's a it's a it's a it's a lot. The final season. Do you think fans are going to be happy with the ending? I mean, it's not without it's you know, anything is going to be, you cannot land a six season

or five, five season series. You're going to fumble here and there, but I think where it really matters now, unfortunately here I can't talk about it in a way that's like more substantive, you know, because I wouldn't want to spoil it for you either. Please don't. Um, but it's, I think it's very satisfying for a lot of meaningful reasons. Okay. I'm going to end the episode the same way you end some of yours. If you could go back and talk to your 12 year old self, what would you say?

I would want to give them a really long hug. I would want to give him a really long hug. I would want to be the man, the male figure, the role model in his life that he somehow did not seem to have up until way too late. I want to hold him first so that, you know, that Lady Gaga Bruno Mars song, it's been stuck in my head so much. I want to hold you just for a while. Maybe you're going to bring the band back. Fuck acting.

I would love to play music, but you know, but I gotta find the right people for that. I would hold him just for a while. And I would have to get back into the time machine so then I would die with a smile. I don't know that I could say, what a 12 year old needs to hear and will actually listen to is not necessarily what we would say.

So I don't know. I mean, the essence of what everyone always says is basically like, it's gonna be okay. Like you're gonna be okay. And I would wanna communicate that, but I don't know how he would hear it. So I think I would just hold him

and just let him feel like, not only that you're okay, but like, this is the point. If you haven't, if there's anything you're missing, if there's anything you're feeling, a way that you're hurting, this is the point. If you haven't, if there's anything you're missing, if there's anything you're feeling a way that you're hurting, this is the point. You have to learn somehow. Yeah. You know?

It's beautiful. Yeah. Penn, thank you so much for coming on Call Our Daddy. That was truly a pleasure. I appreciate it. It's really nice podcasting with podcasters. Yeah, right? So much easier.

10 out of 10, thank you. Thank you, thank you so much.