Call Her Daddy - Rachael Kirkconnell: I Was Blindsided

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

Join Alex in the studio with The Bachelor’s Rachael Kirkconnell. Rachael details her blindside breakup from Matt James after four years together. She discusses why they never lived together, the insecurities she struggled with in their relationship, how the breakup conversation started, and what she thought of his abrupt Instagram announcement.

What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy. Rachel Kirkano, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank you. Obviously, you're going through a very, very public breakup right now. It's like not under the best circumstances that we're sitting down together. I think it was a shock to the world. We're going to find out today think it was a shock to the world. We're going to find out today if it was a shock to you, but just like overall, how are you doing right now? How do you feel about being a mother?

It's different every day. I'm doing okay. I would say some days are better than others. One day I'm feeling kind of empowered. I'm like, you know what? Yeah, it's okay. I'm excited to be on my own. And then the next day I can barely get out of bed and I just miss him and I'm sad about everything.

So yeah, it just comes and goes. It's different every day. I think that why I especially wanna talk to you today and what we're gonna get into though is even you just saying that is so relatable. Probably everyone watching this has been through a breakup and a breakup is not linear where you're like one day like, oh my God, I'm perfect again.

So like I appreciate you being honest because breakups are so emotionally devastating and hard, especially if you're the one getting broken up with. I obviously want to talk to you about everything that's happened. But first, I do think it's kind of important. We just kind of go back to like when you met Matt on the Bachelor Why did you want to go on that show? Oh my gosh, it's actually a funny story I didn't want to go on the show. Okay, did not sign myself up for the show. My friends nominated me and They didn't tell me that they nominated me. I think they put in just some you know, the

filled out the online thing and I got a call. I was grocery shopping. It was like middle of COVID. So I'm getting this call from a random LA number and I'm like, that's so weird. Like who's trying to reach out to me right now from LA? But I was grocery shopping so I didn't answer. Got a text from the same phone number, didn't open the text. I was like this, I thought it was like a job. I was applying for jobs everywhere. It was like one of those things where it was like, you know, I don't think anyone knew what was going on in the world.

So I just was seeing what could happen. And so I thought it was a job getting back to me. And then I got a voicemail. So then I'm like, oh my gosh, I need to call these people back if they're actually trying to set up an interview with me or something. So I get to my car and I immediately listen to the voicemail

and it's someone from The Bachelor saying they received an application from me. I thought it was a joke. I thought it was a prank. I texted my friends, I'm like, who did this? Like, what's going on? So three of my friends started freaking out and they're like, oh my gosh,

we filled out an application for you like months ago. So it's real. You know, I didn't think it was an actual thing. And at first I was like, I'm not doing that. I'm gonna be the villain or I'm gonna be like one of the crazy girls. I didn't know how it worked. So I was like, I'm gonna be, villain or I'm gonna be like one of the crazy girls. I didn't know how it worked So I was like I'm gonna be I don't know just not it's not gonna go well for me

So at first I was like no, I'm not doing that. That sounds crazy and then I Did have a call with them and they were like, you know what just Go with the process and just see like my friends were like, just see what they even want from you. I just wanna see the ins and outs. I was like, okay. So I started doing interviews and I still was really nervous about it,

really not feeling it, but it was COVID and it was just like, let's just see where this goes. Then they announced Matt in June, I think, as a bachelor. And that's when I was like, wait, okay. He's very, very attractive. He seems like a great guy and I would love to get to meet him.

Yeah. So that's when I was like, okay, actually this would be really fun if given the opportunity. And I don't think any of us found out, I think like two weeks before we had to fly out, we got like the okay if we were on the show or not. So I had two weeks to decide if I wanted to do it,

get all my shit together, and you know. Why do you think your friends applied you? Had you come out of a breakup? Were you chronically single? What was your vibe? I think at the time, a lot of my friends were in relationships and I wasn't. And my friends love or loved the show.

I don't know if they really watch so much now, but at the time loved The Bachelor. I think it just, who's season? I think it was pilot Pete's season right before that. Oh my God. And it was a shit show. It was great TV. So that was like peak Bachelor, I would say.

Oh my God. So my friends were like, we need to get one of our friends on this show. And I mean, it was like me and I think two other girls in our group were single and they just were like, we need to apply Rachel, we think she'd be great. Had you been in a serious relationship before the Bachelor? Honestly, not like an adult, like serious relationship.

I think my last relationship was a year before that. Honestly, not like an adult, like serious relationship. I think my last relationship was a year before that. It was about six months. And it was with like one of my best friends growing up. We were just always like, you know, had feelings for each other. So we gave it a shot. And it just was one of those things where we probably should have just stayed friends.

Classic. And it wasn't even him. It was just more so me. I was just going through a hard time or a weird time in my life and I was like, I don't need to be in this relationship, especially with one of my best friends. And now to this day, our relationship's weird. That's the worst when I have people write in all the time and they're like, should I go for my friend? And I'm like, my advice is just prepare

that it will never be the same. But I also like commend you for like going for it. Cause then also you then the other side is you always have the what if. Would we have been perfect? So I guess like hearing that though, like was there any part of you knowing how the bachelor works that you were nervous at all

that like this is something that ends an engagement after a couple weeks of knowing someone? I think like it was one of those things where I couldn't even believe it was happening, couldn't even believe that I kept making it through these interviews and that I got the call and that they actually wanted me on the show. I feel like, I don't know, I told myself like, I'm kind of boring, like I don't know if I would be good TV for the show. I feel like, I don't know, I told myself like, I'm kind of boring.

Like I don't know if I would be good TV for the show. I guess I was confused why they wanted me on the show. And so I think the whole time, even when I got there, I'll never forget walking the very first night, walking out of my hotel room and seeing one of the girls. She's so stunning, so perfect, her name's Sarah. I saw her and I was like, I'm screwed. All of these girls are so stunning, gorgeous, seem perfect. And I just was wondering why I was there really. And then it got to the point where I was like,

well, I guess I just hope I make it past this first night. So I never, I guess I didn't really think too much about an engagement only because I didn't think I would ever get that far. I think that makes sense. And I don't like, I think sometimes with the bachelor too, like people would be like,

so you weren't going in for an engagement? Like, I don't think anyone goes in with that headspace. I think it's kind of more your situation where you're like, I'm throwing myself into this situation. There's no way I'm gonna end up at the end. And then it's- Well, there was like 40 girls on our season two. So I'm like, what are the odds out of 40 plus,

or 36 to 40 girls, why would he pick me? I don't know. I was like, there's just no way that out of all these women That he would be interested in me of all What what was your first impression like in person of Matt when you met him? Um, I don't want to say like love it first sight, but definitely just like total infatuation like right off the bat I feel like we had a connection immediately and It's funny though because I'm sure all the girls say that

when they first get in like, we clicked or we sparked or whatever. But I think he would agree with that, that we both just felt a connection immediately. And it felt very comfortable. And like we were just talking to each other, like there weren't a million cameras and a million people around. We were talking about Waffle House

and just stupid things that they probably were angry that we were chatting about because they were like, this is not good TV. Right, they're like, let's ramp it up, either make out or get in a fight and you guys like, but Waffle House. That was like every conversation we had was just like, we were just talking about stupid stuff

that wasn't good for TV, but to us, it was just natural, normal, fun, easy conversation. Yeah, it's like the real shit in life. Exactly. It's not gonna be all glamor once you guys leave. You guys may be literally going to Waffle House, and you'll want to be chilling. The show is like, they're like,

"'Tell us your deepest, darkest secrets and your trauma.'" You know, and it's like, I'm sure you'll get there eventually, but I'm not gonna like tell someone that two minutes into knowing them, I guess. Right. You know, so. What was the moment that like really made you realize like,

oh my God, I'm fully falling in love with this guy? I think it was like, right before our one-on-one. I didn't get a one-on-one until like the fifth week of filming. I was pretty late in the game to get a one-on-one. And I don't know just like what little time we would have together. It was just so easy and I hadn't like clicked or just sparked with someone like that, maybe ever in my life, just right off the bat, just so into each other. And then it was definitely solidified on our one-on-one.

We spent the whole day together and I was like, okay, I can really see myself with this person. And you always have to ask yourself, like, is this bubble of, is this just infatuation because we're in like this romantic setting and we're getting, you know, all this incredible treatment and you're literally in a fairy tale. So it's easy to fall in love or fall hard in that situation. But even with all of that, like knowing that was in my head thinking about it, I still felt like, no, this is real.

Yeah, like you knew if we step outside of this, I still feel like no matter, if anything, like there's a chance you were excited to get out of that, to like live real life. For sure, by the end, yes. Right? Obviously your guys' season ended pretty unconventionally. You got the final rose, but Matt didn't propose.

How did you feel about that decision? So, you know, like I said, at first engagement wasn't even in the back of my mind. Like I just wasn't even thinking that was ever something that would happen to me. But then I think when we finally told each other we were falling in love with each other on our one-on-one, I was like, all right, this could be a very big possibility now. So it's definitely something that I have to think about.

But it was one of those things where it felt like it was out of my control because I still, I wasn't the one handing out roses at the end of the day. So it was one of those things where I told myself, like if we do make it to the end of this and he proposes to me, of course I would say yes. The proposals on The Bachelor are just interesting because I think you've seen plenty of couples,

I think you've seen plenty of couples, I think you've seen plenty of couples repropose and say like, this is the actual engagement. And I'm not saying that the engagements aren't real on the show, but I think now having been through it all, it would be so crazy to get engaged with someone you barely knew. And you've only known each other for a few weeks.

And so I was totally okay with that. We had a conversation off camera about not getting engaged. I knew that was coming. I didn't know if the show would convince him that he needed to do it or that he realized he should do it. So I told myself like, if it were to happen, I would say yes, but I didn't expect it to happen.

So you were like fully on the same page, like it's okay if he doesn't propose, like if anything, you're having conversations off camera. And he did he come to you and be like, Hey, I like what was that conversation like? So that was during fantasy suites. That's like the most time you get off camera. So we were just talking about what that final day would look like. And I think that we were both worried about production having like little tricks up their sleeve, which ended up us not getting our final date.

And I remember Chris Harrison showing up to my door telling me that Matt's really confused and he doesn't want to see me and at first I'm laughing because I'm like, this is so you guys, this is not him. But then I have a meltdown because I'm like, well, whoever it is, I don't get my last date now and we don't get our last moment together before all of this ends. And now I'm going into this proposal feeling terrible and feeling very insecure and just weird about the whole thing. Like it was a really heavy feeling on the day.

But I knew, yeah, I mean, as soon as he said he couldn't propose, it was one of those things where I was like, not disappointed, but I just was thinking like, okay, you're not proposing, but are we still gonna be together? I guess I was like, what's true, what's not true? Are you about to break up with me?

Are you about to, like, are we about to not be together? Or do you still wanna be with me? So then when he was like, I still want to be with you, I wanna try this out in the real world, I was excited. But the rest of the, felt like they were literally breaking down the set as we were still doing our final, they were done. They were like, waste of a seat. Yeah, they were just, it felt like a failure,

cause they didn't get an engagement out of it. I'm dying, they're literally breaking it down. They're like, fuck you guys, we wanted him down on one knee. But what I do, I think a lot of people respect about that. It's like, we've all seen people on social media now, and everything is less romanticized as maybe it was back in the day because of social media. And we get kind of glimpses behind the scene of what

actually reality TV is not. So reality moments. But I do think there was a level of respect maybe people had of like, wow, if anything, maybe that means he and her I do think there was a level of respect maybe people had of like, wow, if anything, maybe that means he and her will actually work out because they're literally going to do even more work off camera now rather than we have seen couples be like,

yay, and then they like don't even last two weeks past it. So I think that there was a sentiment of like, maybe he is more real for making that decision in the beginning. Well, that's what I thought at the time. Like when we're having that conversation off camera, I'm thinking like, wow, he's so level-headed. And I love the idea of like us one day getting engaged for us and not for an audience

and not for people that like won't care in a week or two. Yeah. Obviously then you guys film. And then as the show was airing, some controversial photos of you came to light and during the final episode, Matt basically made it pretty clear like he was gonna take a step back from the relationship. What was really going on with you guys? I think that he felt so much pressure with just how the state of the world was, or the state that the world was in at the time

with Black Lives Matter. And that was the year after George Floyd. And it was like just such a heavy, heavy topic in our country at the time. And then of course, all of the controversy within the show did not help. And I think he felt so much pressure to just make the right decision

and to stand by what was right for him at the time. And strangers and people that were really close to him in his life were saying, I don't think you should be with her. And so I think at the time he thought that was the right decision, just to take a step back and yeah, not be together. How did you feel about all that?

And like, how was it articulated to you? It hurt because it felt like he was doing it for others and not for himself. It felt like he didn't want to not be with me and he did want to be with me, but he just felt so much pressure from everyone to not be with me. And so even to this day,

I think a lot of people have a lot of opinions on that, what was the right decision, if he should have stood by me or not. And I never held that over his head, I never will hold that over his head because I don't know how he felt in that situation and I never will understand. And I know that he thought he was making the right choice and the right decision and I'll stand by him, you know

forever with that. That was okay. As much as it hurt, it was, yeah, one of those things where I'm like, you know what, you do need to do what's best for you in this situation, and I understand. So you guys end, but was it like, we're gonna take a break, but we're still gonna talk? Were you guys completely done?

Did you think this relationship is completely over? Like, what were the next steps after that kind of ended? So I was definitely shocked when he broke up with me, only because we were very happy together. Even with all of the chaos around us, when it was just me and him behind closed doors, it was amazing. It was so much fun.

We were so happy when we decided to not let the outside noise get to us. So, I don't know. It was one of those things where we broke up and he said we're broken up, but we did still talk like every single day. I think we went like a few days without talking at first when we first broke up.

And then after that, it was one of those things where we just started slowly speaking again. And it was one of those things for me where I was like, are you happy? Like, are you happy with this decision? Like, do you think that you'll be okay moving forward without, you know, at least just seeing if this is real, like, we both think it is?

Yeah. And, um, yeah, we slowly just started talking again. And I think after the final episode aired and there was a big group that was mad that we weren't together. Like there was of course the people that were like you know good job yes shouldn't be with her but then there was this group after the finale because there was a lot of speculation but no one was 100% sure if we weren't together or not until he said on the show. So I think when we saw how many people were like,

you should just be together, like what the heck? I think we both had to sit down and have this conversation of like, okay, let's put all of this outside noise aside, let's put everyone aside, what do we want? Like how do we feel? And we just came to the conclusion that we really do love each other and we really do want

to make this work or at least give it a chance like let's give it a fair chance even with all the craziness and we did and it was great even with I mean I think that first year was hard but I was gonna say like I think I remember like seeing things on um me chronically online, Reality Steve. I'm like, how do I even know that name? But I remember when you guys were kind of in what seems like this in between, I was gonna ask, were you talking to other people? Was he talking to other people?

Did you guys have an agreement? It's okay if we hook up with other people? What was the... We never really discussed that, I think. Like, I was barely getting out of bed, let alone dating other people. Like, I was just so not okay, and I just wanted to be with him to where dating,

that was just like so out of the question for me. Like, that wasn't even a thought I had in the back of my mind. And I felt like when we were talking, we never discussed it, but I felt like things that he said and, you know, us talking every day, it seemed like he wasn't either, but that was not the case. He definitely was. And that's okay.

Cause we were broken up. I just wish I knew. Yeah. Cause I found out, I just wish I knew. Yeah. How did you find out? Because I found out via Reality Steve. Well, he contacted my... Well, now she's my sister-in-law. But Reality Steve contacted my brother's girlfriend at the time, and she told me.

And I was with Matt. What did he say? So he basically said that there was a girl that reached out to him saying like, Matt and me have been speaking, he's been trying to get me to come over and hang out, and I just saw that him and Rachel were seen together in New York

when he was literally just trying to hang out with me like two days prior, and I don't think she knows, so I just want her to know. And so I was given that information, and I was just, I was really, really upset just because I felt like it was definitely kept a secret from me. He technically didn't lie, because I never asked,

but at the same time, I never would have, well, maybe he did lie a little bit. Now I'm trying to think about it. Maybe there were some lies in there, because I was very, very, very upset when I found everything out, and I just remember telling him that he lied to me. So with all of that,

I just remember storming out of his place, and I was like, don't ever talk to me again. We're done. Because I just found out a lot of stuff all at once. And yeah, I just was definitely a little bamboozled, for sure. So then like we go another week without talking and long story short, he ends up being in Atlanta for work

and I'm at my friend's apartment and the hotel they put him in is right next to my friend's apartment, like, could throw a rock at it, you know? And yeah, I think he saw my location, he saw I was like literally 100 feet from him and he was like, I understand you probably don't ever wanna talk to me again, but can we meet

just so I can apologize and just, apologize and just share my side of things? And I said yes, and we sat in my car. I wouldn't let him come up to her apartment. Classic. So I met him downstairs and we sat in my car and talked for like six hours, just sitting in the parking garage. And he explained everything, I heard him out.

And it was just one of those things where he was like, just give me a chance. I'm sorry. And I do love you. And I do want to be with you. And I'm done, you know, playing these games. Like, let's give this a real shot. Let's get back together. So I said, okay, I gave him the chance, because I loved him. When you got back together, coming off of that, coming off of the dynamic on The Bachelor, like, did you have a hard time trusting him? Thousand percent.

So I told myself, like, he has a lot to move on from with me and then I have a lot to move on from with him so we both need to decide like if we really do want to be together we need to forgive and move on and I think that's a lot easier said than done. I just was really insecure the first year of our relationship. I think it was everything that happened of course but also that power dynamic like him being lead of you know a dating show and me just being a contestant and yeah I felt like there was always that, that just not imbalance

of power, but it definitely felt like he was like the star and I was just, you know, his little like groupie or something. And it's not like anything he did. It was just, I think that probably every couple that comes from the show might have a little bit of difficulty in that area of like, you were this person that 40 women were fighting over and that everyone's obsessed with and then I'm just some girl. That's how it felt.

And so, and then even, yeah, going out publicly, it seemed like I told myself that the world hated me, that everyone hated me, but everyone loved him. And so I feel like when we would go out, it'd be like, oh, Matt James and Rachel, like, I don't know. And I don't know if that was in my head or not, but that's just how it felt. So I definitely felt, and it was one of those things

where I'm like, he could get anyone, he could have anyone, like, why is he with me? And so when he would go do things without me, I'd be like, there's probably like someone hotter and cooler and more fun than me hitting on him right now. And like, why is he even with me? Yeah, just really, really insecure. I felt like I had a hard time trusting him

because of what was happening when we were apart. And that girl coming to reality, Steve and everything, I'm just like asking myself like, are you still doing this? But I know to this day, like, and I even see this online now, he's not a cheater. You know, I never actually had to worry about him cheating on me. Because technically if he was ever with other women, we were apart. So I can't, you know, call him a cheater or worry about him cheating on me.

Was that the only time that you guys were apart and he was with another woman or was there? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So the whole, so from your understanding, the four years of your relationship, he was faithful to you. Yes.

I think I see a lot of that right now because I reposted a funny video on TikTok of like some girl, I don't know, doing something to her best friend's ex-boyfriend and so now everyone's thinking that. There was. But that was before we even broke up, so. So the first year was difficult, but then there's three years to come that,

and again, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but like seemed like you guys were so happy. Every time I opened Instagram, you guys were in a new city or a new country and you were trying different foods and you were, you know, being thrown into these beautiful other cultures and experiences. And it just felt like you guys were on this whirlwind together. Like, how did that lifestyle of just constantly going and traveling together feel? I think at first it was so, it was so fun. Like, I couldn't believe that my life was what it was.

You know, I just went from being this normal person to going on this crazy dating show, actually falling in love, being with the guy, and then we're doing these really fun experiences that I would have never done otherwise. So it was so much fun, even through like all the insecurities and everything. But insecurities and everything, but I think for the first like two years it was just fun dating, not really too worried about like a proposal and marriage. I mean we definitely always had those conversations, but I don't think either of us were in a rush yet. Like I think those first few years, it felt like a normal relationship. You know, when you, I think in like the real world,

dating for a few years without a proposal or marriage is normal. So that's what we were both telling ourselves, like we just want to have the most normal relationship possible because it definitely started out very unconventionally and it still is crazy just having strangers care about your relationship. It's great sometimes but yeah, other times it's a lot.

So it was just really not, it was, I hate saying it wasn't too serious, but it was just more fun and really getting to know each other and just dating. And then I think like last year, our third year, well I guess that was two years ago now yeah. So I guess our third year of dating was when I started to just ask like, okay, so where is this going? Like what, I didn't ever want a timeline of things. I never wanted to know like when a proposal was coming.

I think like some girls these days, like they want to know when it's coming. They wanna pick the ring out. They wanna pick their outfit out. And I always told him like, I don't wanna know anything. I wanna be so shocked, so surprised. But I do want to know that that's where your head's at and that we're on the same page.

So. And what would he say? He seemed like he was on the same page. Like that's why it's, trying not to cry. It's okay. It was like, just confusing to look back on now because when we would talk about things, he always seemed like he was on the same page, privately and publicly, you know, whether we were doing interviews or whether he was replying to people in comments, talking about getting married and everything like that.

So yeah, I guess it's just hard to think about, it's just one of those things that you replay a lot over and over again, because the words were there and, you know, us talking about taking the next steps, all of that was fine, but, you know, the actions obviously weren't there. I was gonna say, like, from my understanding,

obviously you spent four years together, but you never lived together? No, so, like, that was another thing. He said that he didn't want to live together until we were married, and he's a very religious man. He said that he didn't want to live together until we were married. And he's a very religious man. So I was like, that's okay, I can do that.

But at the same time, I'm a little confused because we're still traveling together, staying in the same hotel. And it was like we were living together. Like half of his stuff is still at my place in Georgia right now. But he always had an apartment in Miami or New York. So we were either in New York, Miami or in Atlanta.

And I think at the time I just didn't worry about it too much because it was fun. I feel like whenever we would talk about our life, we would say like, we want multiple homes anyways, like to be, or just, you know, a little space here and there, like a home home somewhere. But it'd be fun to have to keep the apartment in Miami or keep the apartment in New York.

And so I think that I was making excuses for it because it was one of those things where we were saying that that was going to be our life anyway. So I guess I just didn't think too much on it. But I also think it was me trying to justify it just because I didn't want to worry like, well, is this like fear of like, you know, taking the next steps? You know, of course you don't want to admit that to yourself. So now yeah, looking back on it, maybe that's is what it was, but.

Did you have any friends or your family be like, Rachel, how are you guys not living together yet? No, only because. The religious. Yeah, well, it was like, we basically did live together, at least in Georgia, it was like our house. Like that's where Homebase was for us, I would say. Like that's where most of his stuff was. That's obviously where all my stuff is.

And whenever we weren't traveling, that's where we would be. Okay. So it did feel like we were living together, but at the end of the day, it was my place. I don't know. Yeah. So it was just one of those things where looking back, probably that was probably a red flag, but I just tried to tell myself that it was okay.

When you say that you guys talked about engagement, do you mind sharing just like, how detailed did you guys get? Like, did you talk about how many kids? Did you talk about where you were? Like, can you share? Yeah. I honestly think we talked about family and kids more than anything

which is like That sucks more than anything I think cuz I think when you picture your life or you have an idea of what it's gonna look like and now I'm like, I have no idea what life looks like from here on out and Yeah, it's sad to Like think about these I'm trying to laugh at myself, but like Yeah, I'm like picturing these kids that are obviously like

No longer a thing Which like kind of sounds crazy. I'm not trying to sound like an insane person, but- You don't sound crazy. That's yeah, that's probably like one of the saddest things about it is just picturing your life with someone and thinking like that is how your life's going to look. And then now it's just all taken away. But yeah, we talked about rings. He told me a few months ago to start, you know, saving some things, picking things out, or that we should go look at some. And that was a big deal, I would say, for him to say.

That's when I was like, wow, okay, he really is like on board with this. Like that was such a green flag to me. And I felt like the longer we were together, the more he was able to talk about it. And I think at first I could tell it was something that did scare him a lot, or it was like a really hard thing for him to talk about. And it just seemed easier and easier as our relationship went on. So I felt like that was a good sign. And yeah, I don't know. I just, I think when he started talking about kids and picking out a ring and wedding food

and where we want the wedding, like stuff like that, I used those things to just hold on, if that makes sense. Like, I don't know if there were any actions following those things to just hold on, if that makes sense. Like, I don't know if there were any actions following those things, but when you're told these things, you just like wanna hold on to them. When you look back at those conversations, do you see any like patterns or themes of like when he would engage in it?

Like, was it when you were like, you know what I mean? Like, was there any like like, him engaging being like, I want you to be the mother of my children. Like, I want to have a wedding. Like, did you ever see a pattern? I definitely would. I'm sure I would bring it up more, but it wouldn't ever be in like a pressure kind of way.

It would just like come naturally in a conversation. But he seemed more than happy to talk about things too. And I don't know, it wasn't like a pattern of... I think for at the end of the day, when I think about things, like the words were there, but the actions weren't yeah Like they weren't matching so he would say these things but then Okay. Well, what are we what are you doing to? get this if that makes sense like what are we doing actively to

Have an engagement and plan a wedding and all of this stuff. You know, like you said that we can go look at rings, but okay, is that gonna happen? Because it was one of those things where I was like, okay, you said that, but I'm gonna see, I'm gonna let him bring it back up if he meant it. That's tough. Because from what I'm hearing from you too, it's like you're again kind of like waiting for him to engage in some capacity.

And it's like kind of on his terms. And it's like that's really hard. I'm sorry, because it's hard to break then that pattern of like when someone is kind of the one in control to get to just feeling like we're in a partnership. And it's not me kind of like tiptoeing and seeing if you're interested, like it's hard to break that cycle. Yeah, it's just, it's such a weird thing to begin with because at the end of the day,

like it's mostly men who propose. Yeah. Like it's of course different for everyone these days, but everyone's like, yeah, she's on his timeline, she's on his timeline. And I'm like sitting here, I'm like, what am I supposed to do? Like, I don't know.

It's one of those things where at the end of the day, he's the one that needs to get down on a knee. I think in a beautiful way, and this is what I know we're about to get there, but like just cutting to the other side of it for you is like, I've been there where I get there, but like, just cutting to the other side of it for you is like, I've been there where I felt the same exact way, where I was like, he talks about the house

in Westchester with me and we're like together, but I still like, nothing has happened yet. Like I can tell you now having a partner that it does feel super like 50-50 and everything with my husband. I wasn't surprised at all when, oh my God, his name is Matt too, when Matt would bring things up about future or let's go ring shopping together. Like we're in previous relationships I was and I think I recognize cause I had never had it

which I'm like hopeful for you to experience of like it was, we were so in lockstep that I could have gotten down on one knee. You know what I mean? And like, I like, so I think I get what you're saying. And I think a lot of women experienced this where like we condition ourselves to believe what is his decision at the end of the day.

And I think unfortunately, that's not how it should be. Yes, the gesture for him physically getting on the knee is so romantic and fun, but you should still have a say in whether it's gonna happen or not and not have to wait for someone to do that for you. And I think a lot of women are going to be sitting listening to this interview being like, fuck Rachel. Like there may be women listening to this that are realizing right now, Rachel, like they're in the same situation as you is like,

he keeps saying these things, the words are there, but the actions aren Yeah. I'm curious, like, over the course of your relationship, we're talking about engagement, we're talking about a wedding. Did Matt ever express any doubts about your guys' future together? I think there were times in our relationship where, I don't wanna say he seemed scared, but I think that he felt the weight of marriage. where I don't wanna say he seemed scared,

but I think that he felt the weight of marriage really heavily on him. And I think that's for him to discuss why he felt like that. I never knew if it was because there was something wrong with me or not wrong with me. I keep trying to tell myself that there's nothing wrong with me or like not wrong with me, I keep trying to tell myself that there's nothing wrong with me,

even though like of course it feels like it sometimes. But I ask myself like, is it me or is it him? Like is it something that he needs to figure out? You know, is there something that scares him? Is there something that he went through growing up that, you know, he has this trauma now? Or am I just not like his perfect person? So I would just say,

I still don't know. I think like time will tell. And I think that he'll have to answer that and figure that out, but. Obviously every couple has their problems. No couple is perfect. For you and Matt, what would typically trigger an argument? We really didn't argue a lot. We really didn't argue a lot. When we would argue, it would more so be like someone did something to piss the other person

off and then, I don't know, it was like we both, I guess we were both pretty stubborn. So we both thought that we were in the right and that they were in the wrong. And we just had a hard time seeing eye to eye sometimes. I was always trying to remind him, sorry, I was always trying to remind him that we are on the same side and the problem is the problem. We're arguing like this when it should be like, okay, we're a team, here's the issue, how can we fix this together?

It was either that or it was just acting out of, like in the moment, acting out of anger and not meaning things. So then it was one of those things where I was like, okay, if we're ever annoyed or irritated, let's just take a breather, let's not talk for a second, and really try to figure out what the actual problem is, like where this anger is coming from,

and then we can discuss it. Was there someone in the relationship that would apologize first more often? This is what's crazy is I feel like I was apologizing a lot. Even if I was the one that was mad about something, we would sit down and I'd be like, I'm annoyed about this. And then at the end of the conversation, I would be the one that would be saying sorry.

And I started feeling crazy. But at the end of the relationship he basically said that I have a hard time taking accountability and apologizing and I'm sitting here I'm like I'm going crazy because I feel like I do say sorry a lot for things that I'm not even like sure what I'm saying sorry for you know but that's maybe that was his argument that I'm not even like sure what I'm saying sorry for, you know? But that's, maybe that was his argument that I wasn't understanding. I think that we just had... No, Rachel.

...hard times understanding where we were each coming from. And now I still feel crazy, you know? I'm like... First of all, you're not crazy. And what you just said, one of my really close friends just went through where she was like, I'm always the one having to take accountability. And he's getting so mad at me if like, I don't own it. But I'm like, we put like, I didn't, am I like, yeah, why am I?

I didn't do anything. We're in this fight because you did this and somehow I'm upset and then I'm having to, that's like, that's not healthy. That's not fair to you because when you look back, why do you think you were so quick to take accountability and arguments even if it wasn't your own problem? Because he was just so adamant that I have a hard time

admitting I'm wrong or taking accountability. And so when your partner is telling you those things, like you wanna believe them, you wanna be like, okay, if this really is like a problem I have and something that you're really upset about, then of course, like I wanna try to do what I can to fix that. But yeah, I don't know.

I don't know if I'll ever know. The feeling of leaving an argument and not feeling like you both won, there is no winning. It's like, oh God, like you kind of said, we came together and we saw that together. How did you feel a lot of times when you would apologize and then you walk away from that situation after the 50th time, did it start to weigh on you?

I would say it didn't weigh on me in the sense that it made me angry, but it almost worried me that he was gonna leave me or break up with me or that I wasn't good enough. I think like when you're told that you're the one in the wrong then you're like okay so what can I do to be better or be a better partner? Yeah now looking back on it you have to I have to ask myself like was it deserved or not?

I don't know, but yeah, it was one of those things where I went into the conversation irritated with him and then I leave the conversation hoping that he's not irritated with me and that I'm sorry and I want him to not be mad at me. You start to lose your mind a little bit. Let's talk about the breakup. ["Done Now, I'm Sorry"]

From what we can see online, when your relationship ended, you were in Tokyo together. What was the state of your relationship when you were going into that trip? It was great. I mean, we were literally talking about engagement, marriage, all the things on that trip. We had been together since I think it was like January 3rd, I met him in London. So we were in London having a great time and then we went from London to Tokyo just because we had the time and we had these like flight vouchers that were expiring for like an international flight. And Japan is like my favorite country in the entire world.

So we were like, let's just do it while we can. So it was very unplanned, very last minute trip, but it was fun, exciting, you know, everything was great. There was nothing wrong. Okay, so we're in Tokyo, everything's going fine, what happens? So, it's just so hard to grasp because I still, I don't even know if like,

he knew it was coming, like or if he, or if it was like, he at the moment, I don't know. So everything was fine. The night before, we didn't have an argument, but I was feeling very overwhelmed. I was like trying so hard to find like a good dinner spot

for us because the spot we ended up wanting to go to was closed or something. So we were scrambling and I was putting so much pressure on finding a good spot because he cares like this is like his Career, you know like going to good food spots So he would do like a review if you guys got there of like food any anywhere we would go if it was good like literally every We'd eat anywhere we'd go if it was good. Literally every single meal that we would have, we were filming.

So yeah, I think I just put so much pressure on myself to find good spots if I'm the one that's finding a spot. So on top of that, I just started my period, I felt terrible. Just was having a rough few hours, I guess. And I remember asking him to help me find a spot. And he was like, no, I think he was doing something else on his phone, he was like, it doesn't matter where we go,

we can go literally anywhere, just pick somewhere. He kept saying, it's not a big deal, it doesn't matter. But I felt like it was a big deal and that it did matter. So we get to this place, it wasn't what I thought it was gonna be. And it was just one of those things where I'm like, tired, cranky, emotional, on my period, feeling terrible, overwhelmed with looking for a dinner spot for like an hour

and then we get there and it was a disappointment. So then I started tearing up at dinner. Two tears. One, two, we're done. Didn't, you know, allow myself to get upset after that. Just tried to calm down. We went home and... Did he say anything? No. Didn't say anything. But in the past, if I have a little meltdown like that, or if I'm feeling overwhelmed or anything, he just lets me move through the motions, get it all out of my system, and then, okay, I'm ready to talk. Something like that.

So dinner, did you guys have normal conversation? No, we didn't even talk. We just sat there, had dinner, gotten to the Uber. Wait, Rachel, why did you feel so upset about the menu not being good? I felt like whenever we would go somewhere and it was bad that I... It was just disappointing because I think we're on trips, it's like every meal counts. Like every dinner, everywhere we go, it counts. Or it just, it's important. Because you only have so many meals in the day.

And this sounds crazy, but as like a food person, I'm trying to just make sure that he's getting good content for our trip and stuff. because I know like it's important to him and that it's something that we'll both post about. So I'm just feeling bad I guess that it was a bad spot and then um... Are you feeling like you're disappointing him? Yeah, I guess. I guess. Yeah. Disappointing him or just, yeah, like, I think he was just like, what is the big deal? So we finally get to the hotel and I give him a hug.

And he I could just tell like he was just like, you know, not very comforting. And I'm like, are you mad at me? me and he was like I'm just so confused like why you were so upset like what was that and I explained him I'm like I felt like I'd let you down like I felt like that was disappointing and I hate going to a place that isn't somewhere that like you could post about I I feel like it's a waste. And he just was trying to tell me like, it's not that serious, like it's not that big of a deal. But then he was concerned about me getting so upset.

He was like, that was like, there was no reason for you to get upset like that. And he found it concerning that I got that emotional I guess and so then I was and he just was trying to express to me like if you get emotion about little things like this like what is going to happen in life when something really terrible happens like how are you going to be able to react to things that are actually really scary or disappointing or sad?

and I think like I don't know. I just hurt to hear because I'm like I probably would react to Things that are terrible in a sad way. Like what do you mean? I don't know I felt like I was being punished for crying. I was just so weird, I don't know. Still don't really know that whole situation. I just was really confused by his reaction. And in the past, how does Matt usually respond when you are upset?

He'll let me, he'll give me my space. Do you want space? No, no I don't. I want to be comforted, but for some reason Matt always thought that I'd need space and then we'd talk about after even though I would tell him like, I don't want you to like give me my space because then I feel like I'm not getting any support, you know, or like comfort from you. But that was just something that he thought like he just needed me to calm down and then we would talk and everything would be okay.

So this happens and then is literally the next day the breakup? Yes. So you wake up the next morning what are the vibes? Is he tense? Are you guys acting weird? Like, take me through that whole day. Everything was fine. Like when we went to bed, he was saying, like, it's okay, it's okay. So I just let it go. He let it go. It was totally fine the next day. Okay. And I think it was one of those things where, I mean literally a few days before we're talking about how he feels lucky to have me as a partner and that there's just like so many qualities

that he loves that I have and that we see relationships with other people where they deal with a lot and are put up with a lot of things. And he's like, it's just so nice that, you know, I just feel like very lucky that I can call you my partner. And that was so crazy to think like, that was like two days before the breakup. And that morning, everything was fine. We were in good moods. And I think it was one of those things where it was just a little,

maybe a little arguments open up a can of worms. So we were on the way to get some food and I was like scrolling through my phone So we were on the way to get some food and I was like scrolling through my phone showing him a bunch of videos. I guess I was bothering him. I was annoying him and he didn't snap at me but he basically was like okay kind of snapped at me to where I got mad at him because I was like you know even if I'm annoying you like don't treat me like that and so then it seemed like we were both kind of like mad at each other or annoyed with each other so when we got to this place,

it was just this big market with a bunch of different food and everything. So we get there and I just walk off and go do my own thing for a second. I'm picking up like chopsticks and things for my friends and he's going to find this like matcha spot that he was really excited to try. So we kind of just get there and split up for a little bit,

which wasn't, you know, normal. Like, usually we would be doing these things together. And how do you feel in that moment? Like, are you, do you have a pit in your stomach? Are you like, some things off? No, I just was like... I didn't think anything serious, like, too much of it. I really didn't. I just was annoyed with him, that's all.

I was annoyed with him and he was annoyed with me. It really didn't even seem that big of a deal. It was just one of those things where you're just like, at that point we had been together nonstop for like three weeks and I think you just get annoyed with each other about little things. And I think that's where we were. We were just irritated with one another with little things. And I think that's where we were. We were just like irritated with one another

with little things, but I didn't think anything of it. It just, it was what it was. And then we had some food, we got back in the car and I just was being really quiet. And he was like, you know, can I ask like why you're being so quiet? And I was like, I'm just, I feel like you're irritated with me right now.

And I don't really like want to say anything if I don't have to say anything because I just don't want to bug you. Like, I just don't really want to chat right now if there's nothing I have to say because I just want to try and like give you your space because I feel like you're annoyed with me right now. And that is just like what opened up everything. And we had gotten into an argument right then

and there like walking in the street. We skipped lunch. We went back to the hotel and just ended up having like a bigger conversation. I think that's what I was saying like can of worms where it wasn't a big deal We were just a little irritated with one of them another But then it was like Okay now that We're back here again. We're like you're annoyed with me. I'm gonna with you. I feel like you're in the wrong You feel like I'm in the wrong

He really just kind of let out everything that I guess he had been feeling for a while. I don't know. Can you share some of that? Yeah, I mean he just... He said that at the end of the day He said that at the end of the day there were just qualities about me that he worries about having in a wife. Like at the end of the day, like, there are things that we aren't compatible with and

like the whole accountability and saying sorry and all that was really the main thing. And yeah, it was just one of those things where he I think just had this realization that I should want to propose to you by this time. Like at this point in our relationship I should be wanting those things and I Should be ready for that, but I'm not still I still don't feel like we're ready or I don't feel like I'm ready I don't know if I ever see myself Proposing to you. I can't actually see myself married to you." He said that, you know, maybe one day he would get there but he doesn't feel ready now. And I told

him, I said, well I feel like four years, you should know or you should feel ready. And if you don't, then that's not a good thing. We probably shouldn't be together if you don't feel like that after four years because you know me better than anyone. I know you better than anyone. So you should know by now if you see this for the long haul or not. And it was just one of those things where it was like, do you want to make this work? Like, do you think that it's me or is it something with you? Like are you scared or is it really me? Like is is

your perfect person somewhere out there, you know, is it not me and Yeah, he came to the conclusion that he didn't think it was me and That he um He said like he just didn't want me to end up presenting him by like wasting more of my time if it wouldn't happen and yeah he just said you know you're you're beautiful smart and funny and you'll find someone, you'll find a guy that will love you for you. But yeah, he just didn't think that it was him.

But it was just really, it was just a lot to hear at once because a few days before, you know, I'm hearing the opposite. In that moment, Rachel, were you like vocalizing, like anything in terms of like, why have you, why have you been so vocal? Like I've seen him on podcasts and he's commented in random like fan accounts being like, engagements coming soon.

He's been overly vocal more than you about telling the world, oh, it's coming. It's coming, which is a little odd, I'm not gonna lie. In my opinion, I was like, how much he was speaking about it and yet now what you're sharing for him to just quickly be like, nevermind. in that moment we were like then why have you been saying this why did two days ago you say I was like the perfect partner with you I think because he

I think it's cuz he did love me or does really love me and I think he wanted it to work out and like I think he wanted to picture it and it was one of those things where it was like well it would definitely be easy too like it just wouldn't make sense and that was like the next steps naturally in our relationship and like the next steps naturally in a relationship and he does love me to where I think he just wanted it to work but I guess at the end of the day like as much as he wanted it to work and as much as he loves me he still just doesn't think that I'm like the person for him. And so I think maybe he was just trying to see if he could get there or convince himself that it was the right thing.

But yeah, I'm at the point now where I'm like, I still don't know. I don't know if he reacted out of anger or spite or if he didn't mean it. And to be totally honest with you, if he didn't post it so publicly like right after he broke up with me, I don't even know where we'd be right now. Because I think when someone tells you that to your face, like I don't think you're my person and I don't ever picture us getting married, it's your time to walk away. Like I can't stick around after that.

Even if I want to, even if it's hard for me to let go and like I love him so much and I wanted him to be my partner. But yeah, I think when someone says that to you, it's like what else can you do? Yeah, you have to give it up at that point. When you were hearing him say all this to you, like what was going through your head? Um, honestly, And um honestly I think like I was worried that he thought that for a little while. Like I guess in the back of my mind I always wondered if he had doubts or like yeah just had doubts about me being his person. And I only had those doubts because, you know,

the actions, like I said, weren't following up with his words. So I'm like, I feel like I just wanna be with someone who like is so excited to be with me and wants to marry me and is excited to, you know, start a life with me. And I feel like it was definitely one of those things with him where I could feel like he was

nervous, but I just always told myself he was nervous because of like how he grew up and he didn't want to end up like his father or just didn't want to like end up in like a broken home and That he took it really really seriously Which he would probably say the same thing that he just put so much weight on it because he never wants to Do

To his family what his dad did to them. But I also told myself that I think like sometimes that put like a hindrance on our relationship. relationship and I always wondered like is it me or is it something that like we need to like work through together so at the end of this conversation is it like okay so we're breaking up and ended with him saying you know you're beautiful smart funny you'll find someone I'll never say a bad thing about you. And yeah, we're done. And I literally said, okay. I said, okay.

Didn't say anything else. I just said, okay. And then I got my suitcase, went down to the lobby, got in a car, went to the airport. Did you have a ticket? Yeah, so I had to leave a day before, okay. I was trying to make it home for a baby shower that I did not end up going to. He did this right before he knew you were having to go to the airport to fly from Tokyo to Atlanta. Yes. Mm-hmm. So that was, yeah, just, I just like couldn't believe it.

Going to the airport, I was like, what the hell is happening, you know? Yeah, like were you in shock, were you crying? Both, just like pure shock, so much confusion. Obviously sad because of everything he just said to me, very, very hurtful, which here's the thing. He's allowed to feel like that. If that's really how he feels,

you're so allowed to feel like that. I wouldn't want someone to propose to me and be married to me just because they felt like they have to, even though they didn't feel like they wanted to. So at the end of the day, if that's really how he felt, then he is so valid to feel like that. And at least we figured that out before

we were married or anything. Also doesn't take away from the fact, Rachel, that it seems like you were completely blindsided. I mean, yes, it was definitely out of nowhere. I don't think he was planning on doing it. I think that it was one of those things where he just Came to this realization and our during our argument. I don't know so we have to talk about His breakup post Because without a doubt, it is one of the weirder cryptic, I mean, people on the internet

like this is this is going to go down in history as like one of the weirdest Instagram breakup posts I've ever seen. Can you talk to me about like, where were you when you saw this post? So I had just gotten to the airport and, you know, check my bags, everything got on the flight. Okay. And I'm in my seat and for some reason my phone, I think it's because I downloaded a

VPN on my phone a few years ago and now for whatever reason it cannot connect to plain Wi-Fi. Okay. It just can't. I don't know why. So whenever I take these long flights, I'm off the grid. So we're literally getting ready to take off and my phone blows up, it's one of my best friends

and it says, Rach, with a bunch of question marks. And as soon as I saw that, I'm like, oh my gosh, how does she know? And then she texts me again and said, I saw Matt's post is this real life. And that's how I found out that he posted. So then literally the plane is taking off and I see his post and that's it.

I don't have any service or anything for like the next 12 hours. So I'm freaking out because, you know, just got broken up with and now a few hours later, it's like for the whole world to see. And I'm still like trying to process it. Like I'm still in like total shock. So then knowing like the whole world is seeing this, I'm like, this is so crazy.

I can't even wrap my mind around this right now. And I think that's why, you know, I didn't say anything, still haven't like made a statement or anything because I'm processing this just like everyone else is. Like I'm a week out of this, you know? So how, what would you say like two hours after? I would say like, yeah, two or three hours. He posted that. When you read the post, what went through your mind?

Like, what did you think of the post? Um, I don't know. I honestly didn't think, I guess I was so freaked out About the breakup itself and then just now knowing that i'm gonna have to navigate this very publicly um That's kind of all I was thinking I wasn't even like analyzing the post like everyone else was yeah So I guess It was kind of funny just to see what people had to say like people thought it was weird that It was a bachelor photo because we definitely what people had to say. People thought it was weird that it was a bachelor photo

because we definitely tried to remove ourselves from the show. And yeah, it was interesting to see the caption only because I feel like there was no, I don't know how to explain it. I guess it almost seemed like saying it like a prayer was the easier way to say it than to say something real.

Not that a prayer is not real, but just something authentic authentic to like our actual relationship. But it's very him. Like, I guess it didn't surprise me that he said it like that. I guess I was just surprised that he said it at all, that he posted that. Why do you think he posted that? I would love to know. I don't know. I don't know if it was out of just him being so worked up,

if it was out of anger, or if it was one of those things where he felt like he needed to do it to really like finally just like put a nail in the coffin. But I have spoken with him since all of that. And I do know that he definitely acknowledges that that was not the right decision. So we're gonna get to that,

because I'm just thinking one, was there any part of you on this 12 hour plane ride, one that wanted to be like, sir, can I borrow your phone? Like, were you, I would have been like, like just to even see, like, were you worried about what people were saying or no, you were just still like, I don't know. I was worried.

It's definitely, yeah, it was one of those things where maybe this ties into my insecurities from the very beginning, but I just felt like there was gonna be people like celebrating and breaking up with me. I don't know. I don't know. I definitely didn't think that or just like people just sad just like, oh, like, so sorry for you guys, like sad to hear this, but like wishing you both the best moving forward. I didn't expect it to be this like people getting mad about the posts like that. I mean, I'm not gonna lie,

like sitting here and listening to it. I know there's, like, different steps, basically, to, like, grieving a breakup, but I can't help but be... mad for you because... you guys have been together for four years, you've traveled many times together. That man knows that your phone doesn't work on Wi-Fi on long flights. Yeah, no, I mean, it's like when I step back and really look at everything, I'm mad. Like, yes, that's fucked up. Like, he should not have done that to me after

four years. He shouldn't have, like, he didn't even text me to give me a warning, like saying, like, hey, I'm posting this so it just hurt to Know that like that's how my friends found out and my family and like my little sister and that I didn't even like get to talk to them about it or Just like grief privately for like a day, you know, so Just like grief privately for like a day, you know, so Even like landing was just so scary just like the anxiety that came over me and knowing I was like about to get service back and I

didn't know what I was about to see and I just knew my phone was gonna be blown up from all my friends and my family and everything So that hurt. What happened when you landed? Did you get an Uber home? Who did you go to first? Who did you talk to? I landed and I did have my car at the airport.

So I was driving home. And at this point, I think the post went up like 6 a.m. U.S. time or like New York time. So I think I landed at like 6 p.m. So it had been like all day. My friends were waiting to hear from me. Rachel. I got in my car and I just like did a voice memo and just let them know what happened. And yeah, I just went home, and, you know, by the time I got home,

it was like eight or nine o'clock, so I just went straight to sleep because I was exhausted. And when I'm depressed, I just, like, completely shut down, and I just sleep, and I don't get out of bed. So I did that. Did you text him? Like, what the hell? You didn't text him of bed. So I did that. Did you text him? Like what the hell? You didn't text him.

No, no, I just felt like the best thing at the time was just to not talk to him. And because he didn't give me the decency to like give me a heads up or even just give me a few days. Like it's one thing to, I don't even think you should post a breakup announcement the same day you break up. But let alone, you know,

not even give me a warning that you're doing it. So yeah, I just went home, slept for like what felt like you know 48 hours and then finally woke up to my sister coming in my room. She has a key to my house so she like let herself in and like woke me up and hung out with me for like the next few days and then I finally like told my friends I could see I could see them and hang out with them on Saturday was the first time I saw some of my friends just cuz I just needed just to be by myself for a bit and just not talk about it or think about it. I just wasn't ready to debrief. And I think when you talk about it,

it just feels more real. So I just wasn't ready to accept it, I guess. When breakups also happen, I think one of the biggest mind fucks is like, you're sitting there, you're laying in your bed, you're so upset, and the one person that you want to talk to is the person that just hurt you. Yep.

Who reached out first and like... Yeah, that was so hard. I completely agree with that where it's like. I'm laying in bed and I want him to comfort me, but I'm, but he's the one that hurt me and I'm so mad at him. But I'm also still like so sad. And of course, like I still love him. So yeah, just a lot of emotions to work through and

I Woke up like at 1 in the morning and I had a missed call from him this was I don't know like Bored five days after maybe in the post And so I called him back Because I just didn't know why he was calling me. I didn't know if he was giving me a heads up about something

or if he needed something or if he was just calling to talk, I didn't know. So I called him back just to see what he wanted. And he just asked how I was doing, which I'm like, what do you think I'm doing? Like what? Right. And then, yeah, I confronted him about the post.

Said like, you know, that really sucked. And that's when he was like, yeah, I fully admit that I could have handled this a lot better. And he apologized. admit that I could have handled this a lot better and he apologized. And you know, sometimes people when they're in a really bad state or they're really, really angry or really, really upset, you know, you make mistakes or you don't handle things in the best way you can. But I don't think that I just, I don't want people thinking that like he's this bad guy or that he's like not, I don't know, considerate of my feelings or whatever because he is a

good guy at the end of the day, but obviously he made a mistake doing that, but I think he knows that and I think he regrets it. So yeah, it's just hard because I'm like, I probably wouldn't even be sitting here if he didn't do that. So it's just a lot to process and work through. Well, no, and I also just wanna say, this is why social media is so confusing

because on one hand, I agree, it's like we probably wouldn't be sitting here if he didn't post that, but also it's like knowing that you are going to at one point have to speak. And I think we kind of like, we're talking about that before this of like, maybe it is nice to just like sit down

and even though it's still so fresh, like I think there's a chance you're gonna look back on this interview in a year, even six months, and watch some of your responses and be like, oh my gosh, like I didn't see it then. You know what I mean? Like everyone has that Rachel. Like I've literally done that in every relationship

I've ever been in and so does everyone in the world. Like you are still in this like grieving period clearly and you're still even like, understandably, like the way that you're defending him, I'm not saying it doesn't, he doesn't warrant it. It's actually just like, when you're getting out of a relationship, you're still kind of in the relationship. Like that you were together for four years.

It's what been what, two weeks, one week? Not even. Not even two weeks, yeah. Not even two weeks. So it's like, I think a lot of this is on one hand, there's the part of that me feels bad of like, we're having this so fresh, that like, of course, you're not going to have like, all the answers or the insight or whatever. But I do think hopefully this conversation is going to like alleviate you from, listen, Bachelor Nation is amazing. They're also very intense. And I feel like every single thing you would type would get picked apart.

Like there was no, we talked about this. There wasn't gonna be like a perfect Instagram post or caption or comment you could leave that would like leave people feeling like they have an understanding. Not that they deserve it, but people feeling like they have an understanding. Not that they deserve it, but they feel like they do because of the way

that your guys' relationship started so publicly. So I think it's this like mixed bag of emotions. When you were finishing like that call with him, like where did you guys leave it? Like what did you say? We left it like, it's so weird. I was about to say like, I just wish we could somehow be friends, because he was my best friend

and it hurts to not have him as my best friend anymore. But that's like how we left it. Like we were just talking like everything was okay. You know, I asked him like how his last day was in Tokyo and like, you know, he filled me in on like what he he did and then um Yeah, we were just talking like, you know, everything was fine Yeah, we were just talking like, you know, everything was fine. And he ended up falling asleep because I called him back at like 1 a.m. because both of our jet lag was so crazy at the time.

And yeah, he ended up like falling asleep and I just hung up. And that's that. How long was the conversation? It was like, it was pretty long. It was like over an hour at least. Did you guys talk about like, are you gonna do no contact for a little bit or you? No, we didn't discuss that.

I don't even, I think like that's something that we probably have to do. We haven't talked a lot. Like he's called me every like few days just to make sure I'm okay, but I told him that he didn't need to do that. The last time we spoke, I was like, you don't need to call and check up on me. I'll be okay.

And so that was that. But yeah, I don't know if he's feeling bad or he just wants to see where I'm at. I don't know why he's, I don't know if he's feeling bad or he just wants to see where I'm at. I don't know. In your head right now, like if you're being really, really honest with yourself, do you think there's any chance you guys ever get back together? I don't think I can, which is sad. I don't think I can because I think when someone says those things that he said, you know, like I don't think you're my person

I don't see us getting married. I think that's when you like have to call it quits. And then yeah, just the way that he handled all of this and his posts and everything like I forgive him, but I forgive him, but I just don't think I can be with someone that I felt like he disrespected me at the end of the day doing that. So yeah it's just one of those things where you like have to stand up for yourself even if you don't want to. Like of course there's part of me that wishes that we could just get back together and pretend none of this ever happened. But yeah, that's not the case.

And I think as hard as it is, I think the right decision is to just stand up for myself and be on my own. I was going to say, I'm so impressed by one, just like how you're handling everything, because I think, I think a lot of people listening right now, understandably, are gonna like dissect what you've been saying, and they're going to judge certain things you've said, they're gonna try to analyze things you've said. I've even been trying to do it. I'm like, oh, I have an opinion on that and that, but then I'm also like, it's not my life, this is your life.

And I also, again, recognize like, this is so fresh for you. I do just have to say in the most painful way, and I don't think the way he did it was right, I do think you're gonna look back and you are going to be so fucking grateful that he posted, not how he did it, not the way he did it,

but the fact that he did it and put it out there because I think we all can feel it when there's love and when there's history and when there's not something huge that happened of like cheating or whatever, it's so hard not to go back. It is easier to go back than to stay away because it's your comfort. It's the person that you love. It's the person you've cried with. It's the person that you've envisioned having kids with and a life with and a marriage with and

a wedding with and all the best things that come with life. You've pictured it with this person. You've spoken about it with this person. So the fact that you now have to be kind of just cut off from this, I do think it will be a blessing for you, Rachel, that like, you will look back and be like, I don't know anyone that maybe would have been as strong if that post didn't go up to not go back. You know what I mean?

Because like you said, you're like, I don't know if he did it in the heat of the moment. I couldn't really tell if we were really breaking up in that moment or if he was just angry. Like, you do deserve someone that without a doubt wants to be with you and wants to start a life with you and wants to build a family and all the great things. And you're right, it doesn't make him a bad person,

but just from like another woman sitting across from you, like why I said, it'll be interesting if you look back on this in six months, it's like, there are a lot of things you're saying that as a girl sitting across from you, I'm like, babe. I'm like, stand up. You deserve so much fucking better. And it doesn't mean he has to be then deemed a dick.

It's just like objectively, you deserve so much better. Like you annoying him or he not like all these little things that I know we're only getting like basically 1% understandably. You're not going to like share your whole relationship, but like you deserve so much better. And you should not have to feel like you're in doubt you should not have to feel like you are second to him and like there's a power imbalance like you shouldn't have to feel like that and i know i don't need to like preach to you but i just want you i can tell yeah it's hard right now no i mean yeah i completely agree with everything you're saying like i definitely have an attachment to him right now. I mean, how can you not when you spend, you know,

every day with someone for four years straight and I do love him so much, but yeah, it's just one of those things where maybe in another universe we worked out and things were okay, but it just really sucks to like step back and look at how things ended up for us. It's just heartbreaking. But yeah, I just think I do need to just stand up for myself and

tell myself that what he did wasn't okay and that I just need to try and move on. I also think to everyone listening and even us having this conversation right now, like I almost started crying when you were like, like those like children that we envisioned creating together like no longer will exist. Like it's devastating. Like it's absolutely heartbreaking. But I also think when you get broken up with and you're forced to move forward, I think you're going to have a lot of beautiful reflection, not even on that relationship, but of yourself.

Even just in the past almost two weeks, has there been anything that you looked at where four years is a long time, do you think there's any part of yourself that you compromised or you lost within that relationship? Because when you're in a partnership, you do compromise? Yeah, I'm sure. Um, I think that's something that with time, I'll start to realize. But I think like, when I have talked to my friends about it, I think that they definitely said, like, it just seemed like you were always like giving 110%, but it was difficult for him to like reciprocate it at times.

Like it was like pulling teeth to try and get him to come to a wedding with me and just like little things like that. And I love to think I'm this like, you know, like badass independent woman, but I definitely Would say that I like compromise my values at times because I felt like That was the right thing to do in the moment It was definitely like, you know, he was like not the one in charge or anything,

but you know, he definitely took lead and I just wanted to support him through everything, whatever that was. And I didn't mind, you know, letting him have the spotlight, I guess, if that makes sense. That's more wording, but. I know, I get what you're saying,

just to back you up there, a lot of what you've shared with me today is like, a lot of it's been on Matt's terms. It's like, if it's good for Matt, then you're being a supportive partner, but at what point is it like, what does Rachel want? And why don't you get to call some of the shots? And like, what would make you happy?

And like, why are you having to beg him to do certain things? And then when he ever wants to do things, you're like, I'm ready to go. Like, I think that's where I can feel it. Every woman in America watching this is gonna be like, Rachel, I cannot wait. And I know this is so premature to even be saying, but like,

you've said it to your friends before. We've all said it to our friends when they go through a breakup. And because I've lived it and you're about to live it where it's like, you're going to feel the difference when you meet a guy that is all about you and has no doubts. And it doesn't take away from what you and Matt had, but like he said, you are so beautiful and smart and interesting and you're like a great person. I can already tell, we just met. And I'm like, you're great, you're great. Someone's gonna be so lucky.

And that is how you should feel in the relationship where it's like reciprocal, not you keeping like, wait, wait for me, like, wait, what about that? Like you deserve that. Everyone deserves that. Again, it doesn't make him a bad person, but maybe this is like the biggest blessing that needed to happen in order for you to finally find that partnership that is 50 50, where you do feel like you have a voice of value and you get to

stand up for yourself in moments and be like, Hey, no, I don't need to take accountability because why are we having this conversation? Cause you made me upset over this. a voice of value and you get to stand up for yourself in moments and be like, hey, no, I don't need to take accountability because why are we having this conversation? Because you made me upset over this. So you know what I mean? It's like little things that will come and I'm still working on it and I'm married. You know what I mean?

So it's like, it's tough though. Why did you want to speak on this today? I know I've spoken a bunch, but like, why did you want to speak on this today? I feel like, well, but like why did you want to speak on this today? I feel like Well when you reached out to me I I just really thought about it and I felt like It needed to have a longer conversation than just You know a little story or a caption or there it was just there was so much to it and a lot to break down and I wanted to do this for me.

I felt like I needed to do it to get some closure with everything and I did wanna do it for, you know, anyone else who cared. Like you said, like we did have a very public relationship and we did have a lot of people supporting us and I know at the end of the day, like the only people who really matter in the relationship is you and the other person,

but I did just, I saw all these rumors and the speculation and the theories and all this craziness, and I just wanted to get the true story out there and just share my side of it in case anyone is going through anything similar or if they just feel lost, confused, blindsided, anything. And if anyone can take something away from this, then, you know, I'm glad I came. But yeah, I just really wanted to do it just to help myself move on and get some closure.

And I just feel like after four years and after all this craziness, something just needed to be said. No, I really appreciate you being so open because I'm aware, like, if we had this interview even in like a year from now, I bet if I asked you these same exact questions, maybe 75% of the answers could be really different,

which is the beautiful part of life and time of you just being like, you're in it right now, you're in the grieving stage, and slowly more things are going to become more apparent to you, and I really respect how thoughtful you're being about the way you speak about him, and I think daddy gang listening, like once you go through a breakup,

now you get to just fully focus on yourself. And I know that probably- I am excited for that. Yeah, and I know it probably feels weird a little bit because you've been in a partnership where for four years it's been like me and him, me and him. But now I think in a fun way, it's like taking this and knowing all the things

of how he didn't make you feel good or when moments where you felt like shit and then the good. Yeah. And basically know like what you want next in a partner. I'm sure there's things that you're like, oh, I have to have that. Matt had that one thing of whether he's funny or whether it's that and you're going to look for that. But then let's be real. You got a list now of things that you're like, I will not put up with that in my next relationship as you should. Yeah, as you should. Is there anything else just in terms of whether it was like rumors that you wanted to just like dispel that you've read that you're like,

wait, that's so not true that you were like, should we just put an end to it? I'm trying to think like I've seen so much crazy stuff. I try not to look, but then when I realized we were doing this, I was like, okay, I definitely just wanna see what is being discussed. And I think the only thing that made me really sad reading was people saying that he cheated or that I insinuated that he cheated

because he did not cheat. I don't think he ever cheated. I don't think that, you know, at the end of the day, he's at least a good enough guy to be faithful. Like, I never worried about that. And so I just don't want people thinking that he was this like unfaithful guy that, you know, broke my trust or cheated on me or anything.

But it's also kind of fun to like tell myself that, you know, I can find myself again and get back to just, you know, loving me and finding my own confidence because I think it's been missing for four years. I'm not saying that's his fault, but there was probably a lot of stuff that I needed to work through from the show that I never have. So yeah, I guess in a way I'm just excited to work on myself. I also will say just girl advice. Don't let him keep coming back in.

I so know what you mean by you want to be friends because how can you envision a world not only not him being your friend, but like without him? I get that. You're gonna make me cry. No, I know. I'm gonna cry. Because we've all been there. It's like, it's unfathomable to be like, Matt's not in my life anymore. But what I will say is like, from experience, I feel like sometimes the person that ends the relationship has the guilt. Like there's guilt that and he keeps calling you to check in. And unfortunately, it's going to be on you to have to be like, one, he's moving on, right?

But he's also checking in on you. It's going to prolong you being able to actually be like, okay, I have to cut ties. And sometimes it does take no contact because it's like, how can you have someone in your life that you did everything with, you loved all of it and still be cordial while you're trying to move on? I don't think that it doesn't mean you can't in a couple of years, like see each other out or at a bar and so be cordial.

But I don't think, in my opinion, I don't think friends, at least in the very beginning yeah is gonna allow you if we're being selfish for you for a minute to move on yeah you got it no and that's why I told him I said you know you don't have to call me and check in on me like I'll be okay um because yeah I do agree I think that like even just hearing his voice on the phone it's just really hard you know and it makes me miss him. But- I promise you the best part,

and everyone that's gone through this, you know what I'm talking about is like, you're literally like, no, I literally can't live without him, like how is my life gonna go on? Like he's my best friend, he's my everything. And then when you do no contact, all of a sudden, whether you're like at the nail salon one day, or you're walking down the street, or you're at a friend's birthday one day or you're walking down the street or you're at a friend's birthday party

or you're having a wine night with your girls, you're gonna like smile to yourself and you're like, oh my God, I haven't thought of him in like weeks. I haven't thought of him or even if it's days, you know what I mean? Like it's slow winds, but then all of a sudden you move on. So thank you so much for coming on. You are such a sweet person. And I'm really, really, really sorry

that this happened to you. But like I said, like girl, girl, girl, we're getting back out there. It is only the beginning. Well, thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Thank you so much. ["Sweet Home Alone"]