Call Her Daddy - SOS I Keep Arguing with My Partner

Episode Date: April 16, 2023

Everyone argues with their partner, it’s inevitable. But, many of us are getting it wrong…small issues turn into massive fights, we hold grudges, refuse to apologize, get defensive and say things we regret. Clinical Psychologist and relationship expert Nancy Dreyfus is here to teach how we can turn unproductive arguments into moments of connection. Alex and Nancy discuss the common mistakes couples make when arguing and provide tangible strategies to implement during conflict. Nancy addresses why apologies don’t always land, when it’s okay to walk away from an argument, how to figure out the root of the conflict and more.

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Nancy Dreyfuss, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank you. It's great being here. Nancy Dreyfuss is a psychotherapist and author of the book, Talk to Me Like I'm Someone You love. Relationship repair in a flash. You are an expert at helping couples transform unproductive arguments into moments of connection through communication and vulnerability. I want to go through some common situations couples may find themselves in during conflict and then discuss how, if navigated properly, it can actually bring the couple closer together. So the title of your book, Talk to Me Like I'm Someone You Love, is a profound one.

Can you elaborate on the concept behind it and share how it can transform our relationships for the better? How did you come up with this title? Sure. The first thing I want to say is have everybody imagine what they wouldn't say if they didn't say, talk to me like I'm someone you love. They would say, don't talk to me in that tone of voice, or I'm not going to listen to you. And the beauty of talk to me like I'm someone you love is that there's a dignity to it. And I'm treating myself respectfully and with love, not pushing, not criticizing you. And the basic premise of mine, Alex, is that people treat you how you treat yourself. So when I say, talk to me like I'm someone you love, I'm raising the bar.

Yeah, it's so interesting to hear you say that sometimes people just need to be reminded. I think sometimes when you're in a fight, you can almost go to a different place and you kind of forget your humanity and the person that you're in a relationship with that you love. And so that is such a mature way to look at it because you are setting a standard for yourself of like, I love myself. Do you love me? And if not, then that's a whole nother conversation. How do you define conscious communication in a relationship? Wow, that is a great question and no one's ever quite asked it. So let me just say this. Conscious communication isn't a technique and it won't work as a technique.

It requires actually being conscious. So let me explain to you what I would mean by that. And I want to talk a little bit here about childhood wounding. And the word wounding is unfortunate because it makes it sound worse than it is. I'd like to say childhood programming. Many people in this day and age hear about horrific things that have happened to children and they think my family was so normal. You know, there was none of that. And my parents loved each other and nobody thought of the divorce. And, you know, nobody was abusive. However, this is a scene that virtually everyone has experienced. The kid, you're five or six years old or even eight or nine years old and your mother comes in and says oh my god grandma's sick we have to go to the drugstore and get her prescription come on let's

go the most innocent well-meaning interaction but what's happened the mother hasn't said to the kid I see that you're involved in building your Legos or you're playing whatever you're doing. In that moment, the child gets a message that my reality is important. And not only that, you're supposed to know what my reality is. You're supposed to understand my priority right now. But nobody is saying to the kid, I am so sorry, I'm interrupting you. This must feel abrupt. And Alex, I have had grown men with no consciousness work who may never have cried since their father died 20 years ago. And I simply role play this. And I say to them, imagining they're five or six, I feel like a witch. I am so sorry to have

to interrupt you. And they cry. And the reason that they cry is because for many people, and we're going to now get to adult relationships, promise. For many people, that is the first time in their life, they experienced something that there were two realities. Mom wants to go on an errand. I'm doing something. And mom can hold both realities, and we're still friends. And in a sense, if you've never learned that a relationship can hold two realities, it becomes very, very difficult to negotiate conflict and to be able to hold two realities at once. So what is conscious communication? It involves ideally being aware of what one's own childhood wounding is and why we're getting reactive. And it also is holding in mind that we're holding

two realities at once. Just because I knew I was being interviewed by you, I reread all my flashcards in the last week. I must admit something I have not done for a while. And I realized something I had never realized before. I thought they were effective because there was no voice tone. And boy, voice tone, we all know is the killer. But it's that most of them are holding two realities at once. I know you're feeling nagged, but don't leave the room, I'll feel abandoned. And the very fact we're holding two realities at once is actually putting something in what I would call a relational frame. So conscious communication, which none of us do naturally, I teach this because I need to learn it, is being able to hold two realities at one.

Thank you for explaining that because it is complex, but it does make sense when you really start to try to wrap your brain around it. And it also is essentially being conscious that we are all living in our own bubble of our minds and we have to try, especially when you're trying to be in a relationship where you respect the person,

it doesn't have to be romantic. It could be familial. It could be a friendship. But like, if you want to have an honest and respectful relationship, you have to not just think about yourself and how this relationship is affecting you. Because at the end of the day, then that person's going to feel respected and then they will respect you back.

So it's kind of this big cycle. Totally. Totally. Totally. But when you have had years of programming and a partner who annoys you, it's hard to get. But you just hit the nail on the head. Yeah. What is the number one mistake you find couples make when it comes to navigating conflict? I want to tell you how I typically begin a couple session, by the way, and I work with couples and individuals. Everything is really relationship therapy. And I would not do something that was a light if I sensed there was an affair, a suicidal child or a kid who was a drug addict. But if I sense it's something a little

more, excuse me, garden variety, this is what I do. I'd like you to be a stand-in. Okay. I say to one of the members of the couple, Alex, I'd like you to say something to me and use my name, Nancy. Say, Nancy, this is a little hard to say to you, but I think you have antlers growing out of your head. Nancy, this is a little hard to say to you, but I think you have antlers growing out of your head. You know, Alex, I'm not that vain, but I must admit I did look in the mirror before meeting today. You know, I guess that was hard for you to say. I looked in the mirror, but you know, I didn't see I had antlers growing out of my head, but my God, if it looked that way to you, that must have been so off-putting, the idea of the

therapist with antlers growing out of her head. The couple is now looking at me glazed. They're not sure they're in the right office. And then I say to them, you know why you're here? Knowing nothing, by the way, about why they're here. I say, you know why you're here? Because you can't do what I just did. You're still glazed. I say to them, you know what I did that you can't do? I wanted to say to Alex, are you fucking out of your mind? But I did not because I want to have a better relationship with Alex Cooper. And if I want to have a better relationship with Alex Cooper, I have to trust that she's seeing something I don't see. And when you guys are able to do that.

So generally in real life, no one is telling you, you have antlers growing out of your head, but they are saying, you were looking, I saw you at the party. You were staring at her breast. I saw it. People are saying things. You didn't forget doing that. You just didn't want to do it. I mean, people are telling you things all the time that do not fit your reality. And the first thing you want to do is set them straight. This is, this is the biggest problem in relationships, not being able to hear how it is for the other person. Do you, do you actually say that exact line? I do. You say the, Oh my God, that's so good. I do. At first I was like, where are we going with this, Nancy? Like, you know, I thought about this book to be honest. And you have said such outrageous

things. At first I said, can I ask Alex to do this? You have said such outrageous things. I figured this would be tame for you. Oh, it was so tame. It just took me out of left field because I was like not anticipating that. But it is so interesting to hear you say that because you're so right. The way that you responded back to me, I was waiting for you to say like, why I don't have antlers coming out of my head. And you're so right that even when you are a bystander listening to a couple fight, it's constantly just the person is speaking from their point of view and their understanding and their feelings about it. And they're completely neglecting the fact that there's another human being over there that's doing the same thing on

their end of their feelings and their view on it. And so in order to come to any type of agreement or solution, you got to merge the two and you got to be willing to compromise. But most people can't see it that way in the moment. Thank you for being a good sport, by the way. Of course, of course. I knew you were bringing it somewhere, Nancy. I just didn't know exactly where we were going with it. But now I see. You say we're not usually upset for the reason that we think. You write about that in your book. And it's not usually upset for the reason that we think. You write about that in your book.

And it's not the content of the argument. It's the context. So let's say that you planned on having dinner with your boyfriend at 7 p.m. But now it's 7.15 and he's running late from drinks with his friends, and you are boiling with anger. How does someone understand what is really upsetting them in this situation? It's a great question. Okay. Relationship is not the faint hearted.

I just want to say that nobody recognizes the work that's required. So what we would hope for in that situation, by the way, we do have some ground to be upset if we set a date and somebody isn't taking it seriously or not completely crazy, but usually it's the intensity of the reaction. So to take a moment and say, what is it that I'm really feeling? I'm feeling not respected. I'm feeling not taken seriously. I'm feeling you're not thinking about all the effort that I may have put into the dinner. So the actual event is what I would call the catalyst. But in the end, we're still responsible for our own reactivity. One way I have of describing my childhood is that I was before and my mother was here to put me into

after. I was a smart kid, got into an Ivy League school. My senior year in high school, I had to go to New York every Saturday morning. I had to get up at five in the morning to go to the Barbizon modeling school. I can do things with a lipstick brush. The problem was I was 45 pounds heavier than anybody who was in the Barbizon modeling school. So my mother was very interested in glamour and in looks. And part of my journey, which got me very interested in relationship, is in third grade, I wouldn't play the card game old maid with the other kids. I was already worried in third grade, nobody would want me. Okay. So I married to my ex-husband who was attracted to me. If I gained

10 pounds, it was fine with makeup, without makeup. And one day he's looking at a magazine, I will say a fully, people have asked, a fully clothed woman. And he simply says to me, I'd love to see you in peach lipstick. I was a banshee. I mean, you wouldn't have wanted me to be the janitor in your building. I mean, I needed to know that my reaction was inappropriate. But how it felt to little Nancy was that someone was saying I wasn't attractive enough. So the best way to be able to really understand what you're upset about is to take ownership

of the wound, but not deny that somebody did something. So here's my rule of thumb. If you're upset with a partner, a boyfriend, anybody, you probably have a legitimate grievance, Alex. The intensity of your reaction is the pre-existing one. That would be the best thing that I would have to say. So in the situation with the dinner, I would say to my partner, a part of me wants to kill you. I feel so disrespected. You can come home, the dinner will be on the table, but I will not, whatever you want to say. And another part of me is aware that the intensity of my reaction is also something I bring to this. And what happens is when you really know that somebody has done something that's off, it's really hard to want to take responsibility for your own wound. Yeah. That's so interesting. I appreciate you sharing that, like thinking about the peach

lipstick. If you went at your ex-husband in that moment, I'm sure he was like, I'm just said a fucking peach lipstick would basically look actually nice on you. I would love to see you in it. But to you, it was those childhood wounds of not being good enough. And your mother having you do these things that you were always feeling like down on yourself that immediately you felt like, oh my God. And then I'm sure you spiral to of like, how often does he think these things? Like, does he not like the way it just begins? And so I love though, you're saying of like, how often does he think these things? Like, does he not like the way it just begins? And so I love though, you're saying your reaction, what is the intensity level?

Because I agree everyone listening. It's not that he's 15 minutes late. It's that maybe your parents never showed up for the things that you loved, whether it was your soccer game or you're at school and every parent's there and your parents are never there on time to pick you up and you feel abandoned. And so there's like themes within yourself that you have to try to own, not to say, which I love that they didn't do something to you. What you can't do in order to resolve it is say, I'm pissed that you're 15 minutes late and keep going in circles about the 15 minute gap it's really hey

you know about my childhood that i've shared with you this makes me feel really unloved and abandoned and i feel really insecure that i put myself out there and you didn't show up so it's like trying to get it underneath for yourself and being able to be vulnerable and articulate it to your partner then allows them to not go into a frenzy and a spiral of like, why the fuck is it a big deal that it's 15 minutes? It's not that big of a deal. It's not about the 15 minutes. Correct. And to say, I know I'm overreacting, and this is why we'll immediately soften something. It's hard to take responsibility for women's own insides. Alex, if you and I had an upset and the world agreed, everybody agreed,

your mother, your father, your boyfriend, that it was 90% your fault and only 10% mine, I still have to take 100% responsibility for my 10% if we're going to heal this. Yeah. I mean, usually it's not just on one person. It takes two to have something happen. An instinctive reaction during an argument, as we're kind of discussing, is defensiveness. I know I'm guilty of it at times. If we can feel ourselves being defensive, what is the best way to redirect the conversation and the way that we're speaking? Well, the best way to redirect it is to actually be with it. And I love that you even talked about your own awareness of your defensiveness, which trust me, puts you ahead of the game.

The first thing to say is to say, I'm feeling defensive. Look at the difference. And this is really why I love my flashcards. Although my greatest mission in life isn't for people to walk around with flashcards. It's to try the flashcards so they actually see that non-defensiveness works and then just get inspired to want to do it themselves. To say that you're being defensive is relating to somebody. If I share with you, I'm feeling defensive. I've moved out of an adversarial stance. I'm actually being vulnerable with you. The problem isn't that you're defensive. The problem is that you're not taking ownership of it. So once I say to you, I'm aware I'm feeling defensive, that's one step. And then what I

might say is, I really want to hear you. Can you say that in a less attacking way? Can you take some responsibility for your part? So that I now have a new problem, not that you initially attacked me or criticized me for something, or I thought you said something that was unfair. I am now reframing the problem. How can the two of us right now work together so I can listen to you? It's a very lovely thing to say to someone, I really want to listen to you. And it's hard to listen to you when I'm scared of you.

That's so helpful because then my immediate next question would be, let's say someone is not even, maybe they're not able to do that themselves, but when we're sitting in a fight, what if we feel our partner is being defensive? What's the best way to redirect the conversation as you're watching them be defensive? Like, what do we say? What do we do? I'm laughing to myself. I want to like ask whoever is listening to this. Have you ever been with someone who was defensive? Yes. Okay.

So I've given this great thought and I have some good techniques about it. One is to say to somebody, I want to ask you something right now. Are you feeling attacked? Why would somebody be defensive? Because they're feeling attacked. So let's say, say, they say, yes, yes, you are attacking me. You are. And I've just said, I'd like to see you in peach lipstick. I say, well, thank you for telling me how it feels to you. And let's say, they say, I say to them, are you feeling attacked? And they say, no. I said, well,

then I'm wondering why you're defending yourself because you're acting like you feel attacked. So if somebody is being defensive, we need to go to why they're being defensive. They're feeling attacked. So I would go directly to that area. That's one thing to do. Another thing to do is to possibly say to somebody, I'm hearing that this is hard for you to hear right now. I might be, if I'm in a generous mood, I might say to someone, well, you might, might. What's hard about hearing that? Usually what's happening is that people are feeling misperceived. That is the biggest problem in relationships. I can't listen to what you're saying because it's putting me in a poor light. And that is called lack of differentiation.

It's actually emotional fusion. No, I'm telling you what my experience is. But we hear it as a commentary on ourselves. That's so fascinating. Right? Like they can't differentiate the fact that you're actually just asking them a question, but their mind is going to such a different place that they're riling themselves up. Like sometimes, I mean, even I've, I've had it in a moment where I wasn't even being essentially accusatory. I was asking an old partner and I didn't know that he had been cheating on me. So there was this defensiveness that started coming

up. And if anything, it was a red flag to me because I was like, whoa, whoa, wait, what is this about? Like what's happening? There must be something under there for you because I, what are we talking about? And then it came out that he had cheated. And I was like, well now, so sometimes it can be something to be aware of if your partner gets overly defensive. Right. Like what are you feeling guilty about? Yes, yes, yes. But that's the unhealthy, healthy side, Nancy. We're trying to say healthy. Well, let me give you a seemingly benign example. I say to my partner, you say to somebody, I was worried that you were late. I was worried. And he says, there was a lot of traffic. He hears it as a criticism rather than me being worried. This is what basically occurs in relationships. I'm simply saying it's a declaration of love. There's no criticism.

I was so worried. I was so, I was so worried. Well, there was a lot of traffic. That's the moment to say, could you just hear that I'm worried and I wasn't blaming you. Right. And then because the reaction could be, I'm okay. I'm happy that I'm home. And maybe next time I'm sorry, like I could call you and just give you a heads up, but I'm fine. I actually have a great quick example of something to share with you. Yes, please. A client comes in, couple for a session. The night before she had come home from work, they're both hardworking professionals with

a six-year-old kid. And all she had wanted to do was go to the supermarket. And nicely, she says, you know, most days I would love to do that. My heart is set on going shopping and cooking tonight. And he says, well, thanks for ruining our day. Okay. Okay. Alex, it happens. So they're now in my office. And I say to the guy, I'm going to make up his name, Mark. What were you feeling when she didn't want to go to the park? Well, he said disappointed. So I said to him, as I'm now going to say to you, Alex, and who's ever listening, you're now going to get the secret to life. If you had simply said, Oh, I'm disappointed, you would have gotten laid. Okay. Oh, my God. Well, when you said you've ruined our day, who are you making responsible for your disappointment? I mean, if anybody is

going to take a nugget from this conversation, that is the difference between heaven and hell. Be disappointed. Does anybody see me thinking he shouldn't have been disappointed? But if he had said, oh, I'm disappointed, that is what is meant by taking ownership of your own feeling. Was she the catalyst? Yeah, she was the catalyst, but she wasn't responsible. It's up to him whether he's going to say, I'm disappointed or thanks for ruining our day. That's it. You're so right too, because had he been like, oh, I'm disappointed or thanks for ruining our day. That's it. You're so right too, because had he been like, Oh, I'm disappointed. Like I miss you. I want to spend time with you. Like, but okay. I understand. Then maybe she's like halfway out the door and she's like,

well, fuck. Like, all right, actually I'll, I'll go in an hour. I want to go with you guys. Of course, of course you're hitting the nail, exactly. You are now seeing how love flourishes rather than how it destroys. Right, but it's so interesting because it requires vulnerability, but it's so obvious both sides are showing your hand, which is, thanks for ruining our day. Did that really ruin your day, Mark? No, but it's, again, it's your reaction and the level that you took it to of her just wanting to go to the grocery store. Like it's not that intense,

but your intense reaction is showing how hurt you are. So instead, why don't you, instead of saying a rude statement, why don't you say, oh, I'm hurt. I want you to come with us. Well, now I'll tell you why. So you actually, if you were in my office right now, I'd have you ask me the question. I won't do that. Why is it he didn't just say he's disappointed? That's

the $64,000 question. Why? Okay. Why? Because for most people, there's such deep interpersonal disappointment. There is so much pain, Alex, that so many people are sitting on. They don't want to feel that because it's a line in to every time his father wouldn't play catch with him. You get that? It's a line in for every time his mother wouldn't let him cook with him in the kitchen, cook with her in the kitchen. It's almost like their defense and survival mechanism. But in order to have an actual healthy relationship, you have to let someone in and you have to start to break that down and not treat your partner like they're your father. What a concept. Welcome to my world.

You're like, this is your wife, not your mother. Okay. I only have a flashcard that actually says, I am not your mother. And then there's a blank. I'm Alex who loves you. We actually have, it's a popular flashcard. It is crazy too. Cause I do want everyone listening to know like half the time that you are frustrated with your partner more than half the time, probably all the time.

It is basically you getting triggered from something that happened in your childhood and it's bringing something up for you. I had a very embarrassing situation probably 20 years ago. I don't think it would happen now. I was with a very annoying, mom. No, no. He's like, what? I'm not your mom. Well, you're acting like it. That's so good. Oh my God. you know we're talking about like going out someone or trying to adjust our language but when is it okay to step away from an argument with your partner? In what moments is it productive? And in what moments is it giving up? It's a great question. I'm not sure I can answer 100%. It's giving up if you're not going to come back to it. That's to me. And what I would say is that physiologically, I'm saying this to every male and female listening to this. Physiologically, women can get energized in an argument and men get what's called flooded.

Their nervous systems get overwhelmed and it is almost like physically painful for them. Even though men can be combative and they can scream, it is extremely uncomfortable for them. And for men to be able to, a man to be able to say to a woman, I'm feeling flooded right now. I need a timeout, but please, please add, and I'm going to, I'll come back. That's the problem. People leave. They just need to know you're going to come back. That's all. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. I mean, I've, I've been in arguments before where the person storms out and you're just like, it doesn't feel loving and it doesn't feel like a solution. But if they, someone said, and I have one of your cards here

and it's like, I'm frankly confused about what's going on between us right now. And I just need a little time to sort this out. Is that okay with you? It's allowing people to know that you aren't oblivious to the fact that they have feelings and that they want to have this conversation as well but you're also respecting the relationship and you're it's actually a respectful thing to say like I'm not my best version right now this is we're not going to get somewhere because I'm going to take accountability that like I can't something is not working for me where I I'm a hard time. Can you just give me some time? I don't think that's negative at all.

I think that's a healthy version. Well, I love that you chose that card. I mean, what you're describing is really what I've been pointing to. The card holds two realities. It holds my reality. It's your reality. I'm being respectful. Is that okay with you?

It's holding what I would call a relational vibe. For my own experience in therapy, I've learned the power of taking responsibility in a situation and saying sorry. But why don't the sorries and apologies always land? Like what are people getting wrong when they're just saying sorry? Oh, I love, I love that you're asking me that question. It's one of my favorite topics. So let everybody listen to this. We're going to imagine that right now, unbelievably, Alex Cooper has hurt my feelings. Okay. And I'm going to respond to Alex in two different ways. And we're going to see the difference and Alex will see the difference. Alex, I am so sorry. I am so sorry that I hurt you. Did I say you hurt me? Well, that I hurt you. And I'm going to be apologizing right now. I am so sorry that I hurt you. I,

I wish I hadn't done that. Okay. That's the, I'm sorry. and that's the apology. And then we have this one. I am so sorry I hurt you. I can understand why you'd want to get away from me. What am I doing in that second one that makes it more appealing? I'm doing, I've been talking about, I'm entering your reality. And so what happens is who hasn't heard, I said I'm sorry. What else do you want from me? I apologize apologize and you feel guilty because the person did apologize but something still isn't feeling good why because you're not just wanting the apology you're not needing that person to say

i'm a bad person who did a bad thing what you're actually wanting is for somebody to care, to enter your world and feel what it's like. I told you what I do, how I often begin a couple session. I'm going to tell you how I often begin any session, an individual session, very quickly. And everybody listening to this, you can do this. Imagine you're 10 years old, you're in fifth grade, and somebody who you really like, the same sex kid, is having a birthday party you weren't invited to and you're crushed. grade and somebody who you really like, the same sex kid having a birthday party, you weren't invited to and you're crushed. Do you go to your mother and tell your mother you're crushed? That already can tell you light years if you wouldn't have gone to your mother. Most people would have gone to their mother, not all boys, but most girls would.

Think about what your mother would say. You go, mommy, I'm so upset. Brittany was having a birthday party and I thought we were close and she invited the other kids and she didn't invite me. Almost universally, what parents will do, a parent might say, oh, honey, I'm sorry. Or even that that might hurt. But what most parents do immediately is they want you to feel better. So they recontextualize it. There'll be other parties.

Maybe she could only invite six kids. I knew she wasn't a nice kid. I never liked her mother. That was my mother. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. That's where this comes from. But the parent, what is the parent doing? The parent is trying

to make the child not feel what she's feeling. It is a very rare parent who does what we're all craving, which is that must really hurt. I know how important to you she was. That must have been confusing and embarrassing or whatever to be with the child in the misery rather than want the child to see it differently. And again, I want to be a spokesperson for people not turning away from childhood wounding because their families seem more or less normal. Unfortunately, this is the innocence of the wounding. A mother who says, oh, honey, I feel badly. Let's go to the movies. That is not a toxic mother. But it's still help. It's still creating a child who doesn't know

that someone really entering her reality is what's going to hit the mark. So then you grow up and your partner just says, I'm sorry. And you don't have the ground inside of you because of your childhood programming to say, I just need you to say to me, don't even mean it, but just say to me, I can see why you wanted to get away from. You don't even know you're allowed. Right. of whether whatever the situation was whether it was rejection whether it was something they said was hurtful whether it again abandonment or embarrassment or shame or whatever it is it's like allowing your partner when you feel like you've hurt them by just saying you're sorry half the time it's like what are you sorry for and a lot of times people are like I don't know but I know I'm supposed to say this when really if you have a partner that can be thoughtful,

it's like, I'm really sorry. I know I hurt your feelings and I feel awful about it. And I understand why you then wanted to get away from me. Yes. And now I'm coming to you and I want you to know that like, I really am sorry that I did that. Yeah. Do you feel better, Nancy? I do. We can keep going with the interview. You're not going to cancel out because I heard you. But if I said, sorry, Nancy, get over it.

Right. Which is what most people, which is what most people, not most people, what a lot of people do. People do. Really a lot of the time. What if someone feels like the norm in their relationship is that they are always the one who apologizes first in order to fuse the arguments? Like, how does someone go about shifting this dynamic? It's very common, actually. It's very common. If I were that person, the immediate apologizer, I might do this.

And again, I'm being a little strategic, I must admit, but we're wanting to create some change. I might say to somebody the next time this happens, I said, I noticed something. I was just about to start to be conciliatory. I can't stand the distance between us. And I'm aware I've done this so often. It kind of makes me feel I'm in a one down position. So I just want to share with you right now, a part of me can't stand that we're so far apart. But it's starting to feel a little humiliating that I'm the one who always initiates. It would make me feel cared for

if I felt you were caring for the relationship. Nancy, you're good. You're like, I know. Oh, wow. Well, I want to say something to you about me being good. First of all, I want, I can't believe I'm saying this publicly. My ex-husband on, with whom I'm on friendly terms, is a psychiatrist. And he tells me that I am always supposed to tell people this. Sometimes Nancy is brilliant and sometimes she's just having a notion. Okay. Okay. So I want to give you the warning bottle, the warning label. Okay. But the other thing that I want to say about me being good is when I was a teenager and you've heard enough, you know, about my family, I would watch couples that I thought were normal, like the cool couples.

And I would actually have the thought, how do they know what to say to each other? Is there a book somewhere? I had no idea. So I had a, to the degree that I am good, it's simply like anyone else, Alex, I had to learn it. Yeah. There's a lot of work that goes into it. Right. I had to learn it. I knew I was in, I knew I was in trouble. No, and I appreciate you sharing that. That's similar. It's, it's interesting hearing your experience. It's and I appreciate you sharing that. That's similar. It's interesting hearing your experience. It's very similar to the way that my mother describes her upbringing. And it's like almost exactly the same with her mother and her father. And then everyone always looks at my mom now and is like, how does she know all this? And my mom's like a lot of work. Like I did

a lot of therapy and a lot of, you know, and I wasn't always perfect, but it is nice now though, obviously that you're able to share this like wisdom with, you know, the younger generation, because it is like, you now do see it more clearly. So I appreciate you. You know, I would like to share something with you along these lines, how my growth process got started because it I'll be, I'll be brief. I am, this is a second career for me. I used to be a journalist and I was in what I wouldn't have known at the time was in a me too situation. I was 21 involved with a 50 year old well-known writer and he was going to further my career. He was a New York writer.

It was all very exciting. We would go to showings, but it was in this day and age, it would have been a me too situation and surprise of surprise of all surprises. He was a critic. He began being abusive with me. He was quite abusive. And that's what got me into therapy. In fact, he hit me once because I disagreed with a review.

And I said, what's a nice girl like me doing in a situation like this? So I started therapy. And this may sound a little controversial. Maybe not. When it was pointed out to me why I would be in such an abusive relationship. I had a mother who was a nonstop critic and a father who never talked to me. So a little girl looking for a father figure. And when I realized it was abusive, I actually wanted to confront him, report him, which eventually I did confront him. But I want to

tell you what my therapist told me and what my therapist did with me. And I had unwittingly shared something that was a little embarrassing that I loved. I'm even a little embarrassed now telling you. I loved elevator music. You know the kind of music people roll their eyes like music? It's just like homogenized uninterrupted it was soothing for me I grew up with chaos now I can tell people I like new age

music but we didn't have new age music then and this is what my therapist said someday you will confront him but first you need a self and he told me my first therapeutic assignment was to tell three people who I thought would judge me, who had defined musical taste, that I loved elevator music. Are you ready? The rock critic of the biggest newspaper in Philadelphia, a cellist in a jazz quartet, and somebody in my gang who saw herself as the second coming of Joni Mitchell. Three people who were really into music. I had to tell them I loved elevator music. I wanted to run out of the office and I thought he was crazy. By the way, I did it with all three of them. None of them said to me, oh, Nancy, we so admire your transparency. They all looked at me like I had two heads. But he said something to me that was profound. And I say this to anybody who might be in a similar situation. He said, if you had more self love, and you accepted yourself more, you wouldn't have been a match for this man. What I first needed to be able to do was to love all parts of me.

That was my first therapeutic assignment. And then when I confronted him, which I did, to be able to say he took advantage of, it was a few years later that, you know, certain ways I felt used. It wasn't confronting him. It was just sharing with him what my truth was. It wasn't a battle. Because there was more Nancy in the soup. Wow. I really appreciate you sharing that because it's so interesting to hear. Like I'm sure people that maybe aren't in therapy are like, wait, like you had to go and talk about music? How does that have to do with like a Me Too situation? But it's like finding it within yourself of like who gives a fuck what anyone thinks about

your taste in music if you like it but again we now know your taste in music because of the chaotic household you were brought up into and so then as you do work not to say that you couldn't love elevator music when you were all you know whole and and in therapy but you may be interested in a couple more genres as you do the work on yourself because it won't be so triggering but again it's like that step towards loving yourself and accepting yourself then you're able to walk into a room to someone that was essentially abusing their power over you and you were able to advocate for yourself in a different way than maybe how you thank you for appreciate thank you for appreciating that there are a lot of people who are standing up for themselves

in a way that's not coming from their strength it's coming from weakness or self-doubt or even self-hatred that they are avoiding I think it's also something to be said, especially for women of like, you are not less than or weak if you need to take time in order to like, confront something in your life. It still can be so powerful if it takes you five years, 10 years, 20 years down the line, like, you're not stronger if you face it head on in that very moment or the next day. Like make sure you're good with yourself before you move forward with something that could potentially be very triggering to you. And also make sure you're good with yourself because you'll feel that much better about it when you have the knowledge that like, oh, I can do this and I'm going to be okay no matter what that person's reaction because I'm good with myself. So I think sometimes people get shame of like, well, why are you bringing it up 10 years later? Because I need the time. I wasn't able to do it then. I love Alex. I love what you're saying. Besides the fact that I feel understood right now. I love what you're saying. And you're appreciating why I would even think to share that story with you. I feel, I feel very lucky that that's what he had me do because it

put me, it put me very much on the path of self-acceptance. And when you're really, really accepting yourself, you don't have to be strident. Yeah. And it does go back to what we're talking about today. Again, it's like everyone listening, like you're in these relationships and, and if you're having a hard time and you're in these fights with your partner and you feel like you quite literally are like disintegrating in moments because you don't know how to act. You don't know what to say. You don't know how to go about it. You feel stuck. You feel like the same issue keeps coming up. A lot of times, not to say that your partner is not doing something wrong, but a lot of the times, a lot of this can be solved by you just looking

inward and really trying to connect the dots for yourself. And then all of a sudden, you're going to be able to be a different, better person in that relationship, because you're going to be mature enough to own something that you did. And then you could actually in a great way be the person that's the catalyst towards a healthier relationship. Because if your partner sees you constantly owning things, naturally, as human beings, they're going to try to replicate what you're doing, because they're going to feel like, wow, you're being so vulnerable, you're connecting this to your childhood or to an insecurity or whatever it is. Now I want to share. And so I really appreciate you sharing that because it is very intertwined into the conversation we're having today. And I think a lot of women, unfortunately,

but fortunately you being here, like probably can relate to that situation, Nancy, and are gonna be like, well, shit, like I've got work to do, but it's exciting to know what's on the other side, which is clarity and a voice for yourself. I love you're making a big deal about it because it isn't an easy thing to confront an abuser, but sometimes it's harder to tell somebody where you're like, you have, it's a post argument standstill, let's say,

I'm sure we have all been there where both sides have said, sorry, everything is technically fine, but you're sitting on opposite sides of the couch, not really speaking. It's like, oh, we got over it. Like we, we talked it through. We're fine. How do you regain intimacy and closeness after an argument that clearly doesn't feel resolved? That is so human. We've all been there. That is so human. You know, one of the things I say about my book and my thinking is how easy it is to go from cozy to crazy. Like you can be in the most loving space with someone. I promise you, I'm going to address your point. You can be in the most loving space with someone and they just look at their cell phone for like a nanosecond and the evening is ruined. I mean, it's the unbelievable, the speed, it's the speed,

Alex, from which we go from cozy to crazy, or the person is telling a story and they've gotten a detail wrong. And every, okay. It is takes so long to go back from crazy to cozy. And some of that is really because our fight or flight response has gotten activated. And so I am a big believer that the fastest way to get where we want to be is to also be where they are. So I might say to a partner, I've certainly been in the situation and you can see, I have a number of tricks on my sleeve and in the spirit of full disclosure, I can't tell you, I immediately have the trick from going from crazy to cozy. I just say, I'm not completely back yet. I would say maybe 71%. And then he says, I'm back maybe 72%. And you join with each other around your not being back. So that you just be with what is.

We just, where I might say to my partner, we're not back yet. We got pretty activated. My nervous system has not calmed down. Is there something I could say to you right now that would make you feel cared for? What could I say right now that could be soothing to you? What could I say right now? I love that because most of the time there's something either A, lingering, that you can just speak up and it's like, well, I guess I'm just having a hard time because this keeps happening. And you keep doing this one thing that's hurting me. And I'm trying to understand like, how is this not like, there's going to be something that you're holding on to that then maybe and now that it's more settled, and you're now more, you're in a better place

where you're both kind of not activated that then you're maybe your partner then can really say, I hear you. And I'm really going to be more conscious of when it can get to that place that I'm going to make an effort. And then maybe they because it's like, almost like I find when your post fight, you're sitting on opposite sides of the couch, and it's awkward, you then both want to fix it. But that's also kind of a beautiful place where weirdly the conversation can become what you wish the initial conversation was. Where you're both more relaxed. You're both willing to be like, okay, how are we going to sit here all night and do this? Like, let's connect. Let's find our way back. Those are kind of the most beautiful moments. But I agree. You have to,

you have to make an effort to say, I don't feel like I'm fully back. Right. I am not a believer. I'm probably there. I know there are exceptions to what I'm going to say. I'm not a big believer in fake it until you can make it sometimes, but in general, it's not a great policy. So simply to be able for both of you to bond. I remember once my partner said to me, I know you hope I'll never do this again. I know that in itself was coming. I know you hope I will never do this again. I cannot promise that. I'm sure I will do it again, but I'm trying. And that was coming for me. It was real. Him saying, I will never do this again, wasn't as common. Take it in. Him saying, I will never do this again, which is really about see me in a good light,

see me in a good light. I will never do it again, wasn't as common as I probably will do it again. But I want you to know, I want to get better at this. Wow. Yeah. It's just like meeting your partner. And again, that does again, validate, like they know that you're stressed, that they're going to do it again. And we're human. We can't ever make promises that we won't do something again. That is a behavioral thing that's been kind of ingrained in the relationship, but you can tell them you're going to try your damn hardest to make sure and to not try to hurt your partner again. That feels pretty good. I like that one. What if someone is listening, Nancy, and is thinking, this all sounds great, but my partner

and I never, ever, ever fight. Is that at all a red flag for you? It is. It is. And I must admit, it's a prejudice. And I am sure there are some very, very evolved something couples. I don't buy it because what that says to me that that's a couple where they're living in a sense of fusion, emotional fusion where we have to be aligned. I'm sure there's some exceptions. I just have never seen them. Yeah. No, I agree. I feel like naturally as human beings, we're individuals, even as you can be the most in love and a great partnership, like as human beings, we have just different needs and wants and interests and reactions and emotions and traumas and history. So it's like conflict is normal and it is natural.

Actually, you're making me think of something about it. What a relationship is, is a container to be known. And if we're not having any conflict, it's not important enough for me that you know me, and it's not important enough for you to be known. And that, that makes me nervous. That's a great point. Yeah. It's like, to not be known, it's like, why aren't you, because as you grow and change as human beings, especially in a partnership, you're going to have to adjust because one person may be growing at a different rate than the other one person may be seeing things about their past their childhood that they're working on that the other didn't recognize and so there's like a constant push and pull that's happening

where naturally as human beings we're trying to fuse our lives together, but it never should actually be fully fused because the beautiful part of a partnership is it's a partnership where there's two people that are complete individuals that come together and bring things different to the table. Naturally, there should be conflict in moments. I guess my next question though, is when it comes to fighting, I know there's no number that you can give, but like, how can a couple evaluate if the number of arguments they get into is unhealthy? I would have to say some of the happiest couples I know, myself from time to time, there's conflict. This is the question, not how much conflict, but how much goodwill and positive interactions do

you have? So that it's a, it's much more of a ratio. It's not how much conflict is there five or six times as many interactions where you just crack up or you make kind of shared eye contact over some private language or some private symbol or moments of intimacy. And if you have that, the conflict is not so scary. I really appreciate you coming on today. I feel like I could have gone for like a whole nother hour, two hours because, and I would love to have you back on. I think you obviously have such a great way of talking about relationships with yourself, with a partner. And I think that a lot of times breaking down specific instances like we did today, sometimes you're like, Oh my god, where are we going with this, but it really is so ingestible for someone listening, even the horns

coming out of your head, Nancy, like it now all makes sense of trying to be a better person for yourself and a better partner in your relationship starts with you taking ownership. And that also then forces you to look inward of like, why are you the way you are? What happened in your childhood? And that is a really big path to begin on. If people are not in therapy, like I understand why people are hesitant to begin opening that Pandora's box

of what happened when you were younger? Why are these your triggers? But what I can say and what is helpful, what we talked about today is it's the beginning of you taking ownership and not being fully affected by just what your parents did when you were younger, you can now have autonomy over your life the minute you start to recognize.

So I can't thank you enough for coming on. This was like such a beautiful, great conversation that I think is going to help. I totally, I totally enjoyed it. One of the things I was a little nervous about in the spirit of vulnerability, you know, we're different generations. You're very hip. I'm a recovery bookworm. I was worried I would sound like Eleanor Roosevelt, but I don't think that's what I was worried about. Oh my gosh, Nancy, that makes me like, I think that's also the beauty of what probably, I mean, you do and I do like in different capacities. Like it makes us better people when we meet people that maybe we don't know are going to be like minded or similar or we're going to be a little insecure.

Like in my point of view, I was nervous because I know how much of an intellectual and how smart you are and how much you have done in this field. And I'm just beginning and trying to keep up. So like, I appreciate you giving me the space to have a conversation where like, Oh, thank you. It would be a pleasure. It would be, it was just lovely talking to you. I feel really received and I look forward to take two. Yes, we should. Maybe we can be in touch again and we can come up with even just like more specifics. Even if I tell my fans

to write in specific things they're going through with their partner and we could just come back on and do another episode to just keep the conversation going. Yeah, I have an idea about it. I'll let you know.

Oh, great. OK, Nancy, thank you so much. You are so welcome.