Call Her Daddy - The Guide to Navigating Friendship

Episode Date: February 5, 2023

Why does friendship get more difficult as we get older? Clinical psychologist and friendship expert Dr. Miriam Kirmayer is here to break down the various roadblocks that arise within friendships and provide practical tools for navigating the difficult times. She gives advice for making new friends later in life, setting boundaries within friendships, and maintaining connection when two people are at different points in their lives. Alex and Dr. Kirmayer discuss friend group dynamics and how to navigate feeling stuck in the middle between two feuding friends. The pair also talk about knowing when it’s time to end a friendship and the different ways one can approach the conversation. Whether you’re looking to grow, maintain or repair the friendships in your life this episode has something for everyone.

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Dr. Kermeyer, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Hello. Thanks for having me. You are a clinical psychologist and a friend expert, and you are one of the few therapists who offers friendship therapy. One of the most frequently asked questions and topics from my audience is how to maintain and navigate friendships. And when we're kids, it seems pretty easy. Is it normal to feel like friendships become more difficult to navigate in adulthood? Yes. I mean, the short answer is yes, definitely. And I think that, you know, anyone who has had a friendship,

been in a friendship, has a friendship right now can relate to this to a certain degree. And not only does it get more difficult the older we get, our expectations for ourselves change. And what can happen is there can be such a mismatch between what we think our friendships should be like, or what we should be experiencing, or who we should have in our lives, and what that actually looks like. So I mean, we can go into all of this, but I do want to normalize it. Because one of the things that I see in my work is not only is it difficult, but there can be a real sense of loneliness and even shame that comes when we do experience a friendship challenge, whether it's difficulty making friends or maintaining friendships or going through a friendship breakup, which I know is

something that you've spoken about. Those types of experiences can be painful in and of themselves. And then even more so when we judge ourselves and feel like there's something wrong with us for going through that. It's so helpful to just hear that and normalize that because I think that probably every person listening, I know a lot of listeners are in their 20s and that is a huge stressor, right? I think some people think that the number of friends you have is synonymous with how likable you are and how great of a person you are, which we know isn't true. But what can you say to people who are feeling self-conscious about the number of friendships that they have? Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing to point out is

that we are very much conditioned to think about our relationships and our connections in that way. And I mean, obviously, the first thing that comes to mind here is social media, right, where we are able to quantify how many connections do we have? How many likes do we get online? And it does change our brains and it changes the way we think about our relationships and our interactions. So again, I think that normalization piece of this isn't something that you're doing wrong for no particular reason. It makes sense that our brains go to that place. I think what can be really freeing is recognizing that our sense of feeling connected, working through those feelings of loneliness, that

actually has very little to do with the size of our social networks. What's much more important than the number of friends we have is the quality of the connections that we hold on to. And I think the other piece that's important to point out is that number will be different for each of us, partly out of necessity, what we have going on in our lives and how many different directions we're torn in, but also just how many people we need in our lives to feel connected to and close and supported by. So there is some research showing that like this three to five number is ideal. But what I can say both from personal and professional experiences that, you know, it really is about how do I feel? How supportive do I feel? What I do really love that you're saying almost everything in life is

what works for you. And so obviously everyone can look around and compare themselves. Like how many friends does that person have? Or on social media, this person's posting that they're on another girl's trip and I don't even go on girl's trips. And so you're like, it's the constant comparison. But what we also know is why would we want to have what everyone else has? Like what works for you? So I love that you're kind of saying like, it really is dependent upon, do you just, maybe you just need one friend that can work for you also. I also think with social media, like people could be wondering like, oh my gosh, I am invited to weddings and I see other people are invited, but a lot of people I know or on social media are bridesmaids and I'm never

a bridesmaid. Like, is something wrong with me? What would you say to that for advice? Yeah, I think, again, to some extent, certain expectations and societal norms are at play here, of course. But to me, what that really potentially highlights is this desire for increased closeness and intimacy in our friendships. And I think asking ourselves that question of, is it really wanting to be a bridesmaid period that's important to me? Or is it having the

kinds of friendships and connections in my life where that would be something that would happen? And I think when we can approach it through that lens, we're much more motivated to take action, right? To think of how can I create that closeness in the friendships that I have? Or maybe that does mean going out and making new friends, which can be daunting in and of itself, obviously. I think it's also common to like look back and examine how our childhood impacts the romantic partners we seek. But I'm curious to know, how can someone's upbringing impact the friendships that they select?

Yeah, I love this question. And I mean, obviously, now I'm wearing my therapist hat a little bit, right? Where we know that early experiences and early relationships can impact how we see ourselves later on, how we see other people. And absolutely, there's very good research to support that early childhood experiences and friendships in particular can impact our connections later on in life. And what I think is important to point out is this can go in so many different directions. So certainly when we've had the experience of finding it hard to make friends when we

were younger, to find our place or find our circle, we can continue to struggle. And that can be extra painful because we feel like we've never had that close reciprocated connection that we really long for. But I also see the opposite. And I see this all the time in my clinical practice, where someone who had what they might see as a very successful quote quote unquote, childhood with respect to friendships is suddenly struggling because, because adult friendships are hard because we've moved and now we need to build a circle anew because we're entering into a relationship or having kids. And now again, we just feel so torn in so many directions. And that can be really challenging because it's this question of, well, what, what's wrong with me? What happened? What changed? What am I doing wrong that this used to be so much easier

and now I'm struggling? So I think that's one part of it. And then the second piece that I think we really need to do a better job talking about is this idea of friendship role models, right? How do our parents have and be a friend to others? How was that modeled for us? Was that spoken about?

Was the importance of that kind of centered in our family life? All of those conversations and just bearing witness to that can definitely impact how willing and able we are to prioritize friendships later on. Yeah, that's so interesting because obviously it's easier maybe in childhood to have a few solidified friends, but a lot of times that's not even your choice. It's because you are in school and it's a much easier environment to circulate a friend group and have it be consistent

because every single Monday through Friday, you're going to either a sport or school and you're seeing this person where the minute that we become adults, everything just dissipates and everyone just goes in separate directions. And so it's a complete different environment where then you look at your parents, right? And it's like most of the

relationships when you're looking at adults, the primary relationship is their children and their partner. And so friendship is something that I personally think can get kind of put to the wayside of like, oh, it's just an afterthought. But I agree if you watched your mom or your dad or someone really close to you have those like really close friends, you can either compare and be like, I don't have that yet. Or it can be a driving factor as to why you're able to maintain close friendships because it's just something that you witnessed growing up. Again, it all goes kind of like back to our childhood, which is great, but also a little scary. When we're then thinking about like, I mean, again, as an adult, I'm like, we're saying it's harder to make friends and we need help. What advice can you give to

people who maybe just like move to a new city or are going through a life transition and looking to make new friends as an adult and are feeling so just down on themselves of like, it's not working. Why is this not working? What can I do? Please help give advice. Yeah. So the first piece is not a sexy answer, but it's just channel that self-compassion, like recognize this is hard, not because there's anything wrong with you or you're doing it wrong, but this is hard, full stop. And then from there, we can take action. And I think what that actually looks like is challenging this idea that friendships will just happen, because we romanticize that this idea that we are going to meet this person, or even the circle of

friends, and we'll hit it off right away. And what we don't do is talk about the very significant amount of time and energy and effort that goes into actually building friendships. We do talk about that when it comes to dating, right? We talk about using dating apps and how exhausting that can be at times and how awkward that can be even, but we don't have those same kinds of conversations about making friends when it does require, again, a certain level of thoughtfulness in terms of who do I want to make friends with? What kinds of friends do I want to make and invite into my life? How am I going to meet these people? So I think that is really an important place to start. It's just accepting that this is hard and that you will need to do something that probably feels

difficult and uncomfortable and awkward and unfamiliar. Anyone listening, it's like, I love you the point of like, okay, wait, we have normalized that dating, dating is a motherfucker, okay? It's like, holy shit, why is this so difficult? And it's normalized. And so if you're talking about it with friends and family, no one is really concerned. It's just like, God, dating so hard

and everyone's like, oh God. But then with friendship, it's almost like shameful. And there's something that's not talked about as much as like, why would friendship be any easier to make new adult friends than romantic? If anything, romantic is probably easier because you are, it's a one-on-one and you're actually looking for a long-term partner. You're not, there's no one to be like, I'm looking for my long-term best friend. Like it's such a strange concept. So I think I agree. Compassion is so important to instill in

ourselves of like, hey, actually friendship is probably harder than romantic because we're not sleeping together and we're not getting those like certain benefits. It's actually like this mutual understanding of like, we're going to put in a lot of work to just have people around us that we can hang out with and vibe with and hopefully agree on things and enjoy certain activities together. But there's no real concrete dating app moment that you're like, let's go on our date and have a romantic evening. No, that's just not the case. Everything you are saying resonates. I mean, I think the takeaway is friendships are fucking hard too. Right. And the reason I think you were touching on this so clearly is that we don't have

the same norms, the same social norms, right? When we think about what a first date looks like, or even what we might say to somebody, how we reach out first, how we end a romantic relationship, what a healthy breakup looks like. It might not always go according to plan. We might still feel uncomfortable. We have some framework for what that should look or sound like. And we do not have that for friendships, or at least we're not talking about it. So that makes it, yeah, at all, frankly. So it makes it extra scary and again, isolating. And it can put a, yeah, just a lot of pressure on somebody to try and come up with the perfect opening or the perfect answer. And of course, there isn't one. There's so many different ways to strike up a conversation and build a friendship. But I think, yeah, a big part of that just comes from recognizing that this is going to be hard and we are going to need to get comfortable with

discomfort. Yeah. And I also think while you were saying that, it made me think of like, there's a reason you have your job and me think of like there's a reason you have your job and your specialty and there's a reason we're making this episode like if you're listening to this you're not alone this isn't just for one person that's like hey you're the one loser that doesn't have friends no no this is like almost like an epidemic of people in their 20s leaving college and not being close to their original friend group that was so instilled in college in high school. And now you're sitting there listening to this podcast being like, oh my God, I just feel like I'm the only one. Well, no, no, no. This reaches millions of people.

I'm telling you so many people are going to message me after this being like, thank you so much for this. So let yourself know you're not the only one. Yeah, I love that. I think we definitely underestimate the extent to which other people are also looking for friends. And then the other problematic thing that we do is we actually underestimate the extent people like us and people are interested in being our friend. And when those two things happen at the same time, we can close ourselves off from connections that might be really meaningful. And I think there's also this idea that the friendships we build later on in life will somehow be less, less meaningful or less close or less impactful than those friendships that we maybe had when we were younger that we longed for when we were younger. And that also we can throw out the window. That's, that's bullshit. We can absolutely is now or later if you're not ready. There's no, there isn't pressure, but I think, yeah, opening ourselves up to the fact that we can do something. We can create

those friendships that we've really been looking for. I love that. I mean, I always look at my mom has like a lot of different friend groups, but one of her best, best friends, she met, they, she like lived up the street from us and she was just having kids at the same time as my mom and they are inseparable and they met in their late thirties, forties. And I'm like, okay, let's listen to that for a second. Shout out Mary and Lori because they're like, I know they listen all the time, but like my mom's best friend, Mary

is just like her best friend and they met when they were basically 40. So I'm like, hold up. There is an opportunity in different stages of your life also where I do think adult relationships can be beautiful because, and not to say again, more beautiful than a childhood friend, but it's, they're just as sacred because you're also meeting someone at a time in your life where you feel pretty fully formed. This is a little bit of a different situation, but

let's say one of your good friends just moved to the city where you've been living for years, and you have an established friend group, you have worked really hard to get like a pretty good group. Meanwhile, you're the only person that your friend knows well, when they move to this new city, And it's beginning almost to feel like an obligation to include them in all of your plans. But at the same time, you do feel responsible to include them and make sure they're adjusting to a new city where they know no one.

So you don't want to be an asshole, but you're also trying to have boundaries. What advice do you have for navigating this? Yeah, this is a great question. And actually, I have to say, I do hundreds of these interviews. I don't think I've ever been asked this question. So I love that. I love being able to, you know, talk through these things. I mean, to me, it brings up two different sides here. One is you

hit the nail on the head, the issue of boundaries, right? What boundaries can I set? Do I feel comfortable setting might be helpful to set here to both, you know, preserve this circle of friends that I've worked so hard to create and to preserve this connection that I have with this person that I care about. And sometimes I think we need to reevaluate our relationship with boundaries because we think of boundaries and setting boundaries as something we are doing to somebody else. We're doing this and it's against them. It's at the detriment of the relationship or the friendship. And really what boundaries are about are preserving our connections and preserving the healthy parts of our connections. And so if you are feeling,

you know, depleted, or if you're feeling like you're just putting so much energy into supporting this person as they build their network, or you're feeling like this is somehow a threat to the other connections that you have, it might be important to set a boundary because that is the thing that's going to allow you to stay connected to this friend in a healthy way. So I think that's part of it. The other thing that I do think is important to question is why do I feel so uncomfortable with this? And not everyone will experience this, even if they're in the same situation. There are some people where introducing one friend to a circle of friends just feels really exciting and they're happy to suddenly be this cohesive group. But for other people and for other reasons, that doesn't feel so great. And that happens for a variety of

reasons. Sometimes that is about a fear of, I don't want the dynamic of this friend group to change. Sometimes that's about the fear of, I don't want this friend to take away these friends that I've worked so hard to build. And there can be a little bit of almost like this threat or this anxiety that creeps in there. And sometimes it's just about, you know, tolerance to uncertainty and just not wanting worlds to mesh. And I think that's especially true when we talk about, you were saying this before, new friends that we've built as adults and friendships that we created when we were younger. And so sometimes that blending of worlds can feel, again, really threatening. So I think getting in touch with your why, what, why am I feeling uncomfortable? What's going on here? That is an important step in

figuring out how you want to handle it as well. I really love that advice too, because when you talk about boundaries, I feel like I have personally gone through that. I have had it multiple times and I have been the one that has been in the situation where a friend is coming or even like a sibling or whatever. And I feel so I feel a lot of stress to make sure that they're integrating and finding friends. But I also think the boundary is so great, too, because it's like, you also want them to find their own group. And and sometimes if they're relying too heavily on you, they're not giving themselves a chance to see what they would have done if you weren't in that city or wherever you are. So I think that there's a balance of the boundary of being a good friend and making them not feel like

every single weekend, you're leaving them high and dry. I think there's times to do alone time with them. There's times to allow them to come to group things. And then there's also moments to encourage them of like, you know what really worked for me when I came, I got into this pottery class or I started going to this yoga class or whatever it is that you're into. And maybe you have very different interests

than that friend. So you're like, I feel like you are obsessed with X, Y, Z. Like I know a friend that joined a class, you guys should go together. So it's like, allowing them to do things on their own, but providing like, hey, I've been here for a little bit longer, let me give you some advice. So not leaving them high and dry, but also kind of trying to create the boundary of we also are individual human beings. And as adults, we don't want to hang out all the time. We're not in a relationship. So independence and having your own lane is important. Yeah. And I think, I think again, it's that balance between

connectedness and independence as you're talking about, and then also balancing the different types of interactions that you can have one-on-one time, group time, time alone, potentially meeting the new friends that this other person goes on to make. All of those things can be really helpful for kind of spreading things out and making it feel manageable and healthy. And the other thing is a bit of a self-boundary too, because sometimes what we do is we take on that responsibility or that feeling of, I need to help this person. I need to get them settled. I need to make them happy in this new place when they might actually not be asking for that. And so I think we really want to be careful about the assumptions that we're making too. Such a good point. Okay. I'm going to take that note for myself. What if two friends realize

that they really only speak when there's something difficult going on in their lives and otherwise they might actually drift apart? Is that problematic? I mean, that's actually a really interesting and complicated question in some ways. And I'll tell you why. Because from my experience, I think the closest and the healthiest friendships are ones that have a balance. Meaning, yes, we do feel comfortable opening up about the difficult things, the hard things, the things that make us feel scared and vulnerable. And we also have the space and trust to open up about the really great things. And I'll add that for some people, that actually feels more vulnerable and that feels scarier, to share when things are going really well. Because we worry for whatever reason that if

we put it out there, it's going to be taken away. Because we worry for whatever reason that if we put it out there, it's going to be taken away. Because we worry about creating a connection or dynamic that feels competitive. Because we worry about making somebody else feel inferior or that we're going to be coming across as boastful. All kinds of reasons, right? But I do think that there's something to be said for that type of balance in friendships. The interesting thing, though, about what you're saying is that both friends recognize that this is going on. And that actually is a little bit rarer. I would say, from my experience, it's more common that one person might be picking up on that dynamic. And for one reason or another, the other person isn't quite there. If you're in a place where both of

you are recognizing this, or you think that both of you are recognizing this, or you want to check in about that, I actually would encourage you to do that in a very non-blaming, open, curious kind of a way. And what that sounds like is something like, hey, you know, I've been noticing that we tend to do a really great job of supporting each other when things are tough. And I feel really connected to you and close to you when that's happening. But do you get the sense that we don't talk as much when things are going well? And why do you think that is? And approaching it from one, that place of curiosity, what do you think is going on here? And two, framing it as a dynamic. This is something that we are doing. This is a dynamic that we have created as opposed to you only show up for me when things are hard, or I only have the time for you when something really difficult is going on in your life.

So I think having those discussions and communicating about your communication, that's what we call meta communication, that's actually super helpful in our friendships. That's so interesting. And I love that advice because I feel like that's something that maybe you would start to work on in a romantic relationship. Yet again, there's all these rules and these guidelines of like, you got to communicate. But in friendships, there's not really that guide to being like, hey, if you like the dynamic, but you just want to check in with your friend, check in and just be like, how are you feeling about this? Because I actually am good.

I know our lives are so busy. You're like my go-to person when I'm going through it. I'm your go to person when you're going through it. Like that's kind of just our mo. What about kind of like you were talking about like let's say someone is upset that they have been feeling distant from their friend lately and they call them up and they say you know you don't really call me enough anymore and it doesn't seem like you're invested in our friendship the way that you used to be. It's like you forgot about me and I put in all the work. What is a better way to approach this type of conversation? Because I know a lot of my listeners feel this way and don't know how to approach a friendship when this dynamic is in play. Yeah, because it is really

hard, right? I mean, and frankly, doing that in any relationship can feel difficult, but especially in a friendship where, yeah, we don't emphasize that type of open communication and transparency. So it makes sense that this is hard. And oftentimes when you're in that situation, there's a lot of uncertainty about how the friend will respond. And I think what, I mean, nothing makes me angrier than thinking about this experience that so many of us have had, where you ask a friend like, hey, what's going on? Are you mad at me? Right? Or like, I'm just checking in and the friend says, oh, no, nothing's wrong. Nothing's wrong. And clearly something is wrong. Right? And that type of a response is something that tends to be much more common when

we're younger, because saying again, I am feeling resentful, I'm feeling jealous, I'm feeling anxious, whatever it is, that's difficult. And so people tend to be a little bit more conflict avoidant because those are skills we need to build, blah, blah, blah. But I think having had those experiences, it makes it a lot harder to then do this as an adult because we aren't always expecting a clear, transparent response, or we also fear what that might be. So I think, again, owning that this is hard. And the big thing here is instead of focusing on the friend's behavior, you haven't called me enough. You seem distant. You aren't supporting me. I really want to encourage people to flip the script and to instead focus on what are your needs? What are you experiencing in this moment? And frame it as an opportunity, not a challenge. I'd really like to be able to connect more often. I love talking to

you. I feel so supported during our conversations. Can we make that happen? And also, obviously, focusing on what you can do. So not necessarily expecting the other person to be the one to change or to be the only one to change, but how can I make our friendship easier for you? I know you're so busy validating that. Is there a way that we can connect more often or make things feel a little bit more balanced? So again, focusing on what are your needs? What can you do? And when you do talk about the other person, talk about it as a dynamic, not something that the other person is doing. I know I do really appreciate that advice. Because I think when we when the like our emotions get the best of us, we are like ruminating on these thoughts of like, she doesn't call me anymore. She doesn't text, I'm always the one. And so then you get in your

head. And it's almost like word vomit when you get to that conversation but I really and I've done it but I do think that I've learned and you're giving the great advice of like if you can try to regulate the way that you're about to spew all that on to this person because you've been having all these thoughts they may not be thinking this or they have something on their chest that they want to get off and so always starting with an I statement I've learned in therapy is like the best because you really don't know what this person is thinking and you don't know what they're going through and more so coming from like a I love you so much and I so appreciate our friendship and I love hanging out with you I love being with. And I don't know if you

felt this way, but I feel like maybe we've been a little distant lately and keeping it the we and don't put it on them and say like, is there anything that we can do to try to see each other more? Cause I would love to see it. Also, I wanted to check in with you of like, how are you doing? And like, how are you feeling? Because all of a sudden they could be like, you know what? I've been really going through it. And they tell you this big, long thing, or they're like, you know what? I think I'm just like, we've just been growing apart. And you're right. Like, it's just not coming in a confrontational way because you're the one that's thought about this, not them yet. And you need to try to meet them halfway. Yes, exactly. And sometimes actually that last point is really

important because if, if this is a situation where you've been thinking a lot about this, maybe because it's more noticeable to you or you tend to be a little bit more self-reflective or you have more time, all the reasons, right? This friend might need some time to sit on it, to think about what do I really want? How do I feel about this friendship? How invested am I? Can I make this work? And so I think giving someone the chance to take that time, look, I know I'm, you know, I know I just threw a lot at you and, you know, put this up in the air. If you want a few days

or whatever it is to think about it, like I'm here and I'm not going anywhere and I'm ready to have this conversation when you are. Sometimes that's a really helpful strategy for making sure that you have a healthy communication. It's such a good point. Cause I think on the other side, we can all relate to whether it was romantic or a family member or a friendship coming to us and us not having any idea the bomb they were about to drop. And we're like, wait, what? Like, I didn't even realize I was doing that in the moment. You don't have the opportunity to collect your thoughts and like sit and think about it and be mindful. And so I agree with you. I think giving your friend the space, not in like a passive aggressive way of like, I also know I was thinking about bringing this up to you. And so I want you to have the same amount of time to think

about how you feel about that. There's no pressure. Just know I love you so much. I want to spend more time. And there's zero pressure on like saying whatever you're feeling now. Take your time and like let's get lunch next week and keep the conversation going. So let's say that two friends are very close and have an overall pretty healthy relationship. But recently, one of the friends has been absolutely going through it. Her boyfriend broke up with her,

her job laid her off, and overall, she's just been really down. And the two friends are normally there for each other during difficult times but the one friend that's not going through it is becoming so emotionally drained with all of the support support that is required for this friendship how do you approach a conversation that you care about your friend but you do need to put some boundaries in place because I can't like they like, I can't be your only person you're dumping on because it's getting exhausting and I'm starting to resent you. Yeah. So parts of this might sound a little bit like a broken

record, but I think this is important to emphasize and such an important question to ask. I mean, I think starting from a place of validation, I care about you. I care about our connection. I want you to feel supported. I know this is really hard for you. That is the place to start. There is no question in my mind. That is the place to start. From there, again, instead of saying you're too much, this is too much for me, I think shifting to that place of I really want to be able to support you and give you what you need because I care about you. And in order for me to do that, I need to. And that might look different. The response to that question of what do I need to do to continue supporting this person, that might sound different. That might mean setting

boundaries and not talking as often. That might mean going to get more support from other people in your life, which I would absolutely recommend. Anytime we're in that caregiver role, we also need our needs to be met. And sometimes that actually might mean, again, checking some of our assumptions. Because I think there is this belief that when somebody is going through a hard time, all of the effort and focus and attention should be on this person and that they are not capable of returning that type of support. And that isn't always true. Sometimes, of course, and we want to be sensitive to that, but sometimes we also want to show up for other people when we ourselves are struggling.

And that feels good to be able to contribute in that way. So challenging some of those assumptions, being present and really being intentional about seeking out what you need. And I would also say, sometimes those situations really warrant a conversation. And sometimes that boundary is much more internal, meaning sometimes I don't actually need to say anything to this friend. I am just setting that boundary with myself of, I know this is what I need. I am not going to pick up the phone in the middle of the night every time, or I'm going to put my phone on silent, you know, after 9pm because I don't want to get into this before bed, or I am going to

really go out and make sure that I'm opening up to some other friends about what's going on in my life. So it isn't, you know, I'm talking a lot about the importance of open communication. But that doesn't always mean it's a direct conversation. It can be. But we want to be clear about why we're bringing it up and what that might be like. We are our own worst enemy sometimes, and we can get so in our own heads of like thinking the worst. And so I love that you're also saying like, okay, first of all, maybe it almost goes back to if a new friend moves here and you're constantly feeling like the pressure, like you need to show them around.

Well, did they ask? Maybe this person's coming to you because you're constantly being like, how are you doing? How is it going? And so they're like, well well let me dump because sure so it's like first recognizing are you setting any boundaries and then I also do think like communication in a positive way of like I know you're going through it and I am also dealing with my classic own shit and I really want to make sure that when I can't fully be present, whether I'm dealing with

work shit or my own personal stuff, that you have the support. And I think that last point was so good too, of just like, hey, boundaries, like you don't always have to answer. You can be so present in the moment when you decide to engage, but you also don't have to answer because you're a fully formed human being that has their own life and their own job and their own shit going on. Let's say one friend is single and going out every weekend and the other friend is married and looking to start a family. What is your best advice to maintain friendships when people are on completely different pages and at different points in their lives? Yeah. I think being honest with each other about what those situations or life stages or experiences mean practically,

because there can be very practical considerations that come with that, right? Um, you know, my mom, I have two little kids, like talking around the five to seven window is generally not going to work for me because my kids are losing it and I am losing it. That is just the pattern that we do. That's the dance that we do, right? So being honest with somebody else about this is what life looks for me at that moment and doing a little bit of that problem solving of like, one, I want to know what doesn't work so well for you, but also here's what does work for me and let me know what does work for you. And maybe that's again about the time of day that you're connecting. Maybe that's about the kinds of activities that you can share, certain days that are just easier than

others or whether planning ahead works really well or making last minute plans. So talking about all of that is really important. And I also think, and this is something that you touched on earlier, we really want to be intentional as much as possible about preserving some of the sacredness of our friendship that existed before, before this life stage, before this experience, before other people came into the picture. And so what that means very often is, can I carve out one-on-one time to connect in a really present way? Can we continue to do one of the things that we used to really love doing together, like going for walks on the weekend or going to the market or the flea market, whatever it is, like, can we prioritize that? Maybe not every week, maybe even

not every month, but making an effort to at least communicate that that's important to you and that you value that even with all the changes that are going on in one of your lives. So talking about friend groups here, I mean, they are difficult. And when you're in a friend group, I'm curious if you have any advice about like, what if two people in the group do not necessarily get along and you feel stuck in the middle? How the hell do we navigate this? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are, there are, I don't want to say there are no good answers here, but it can sometimes feel that way, right? Because it is a really sticky situation. And actually part of the work that I did when I was in graduate school, getting my PhD in clinical psychology was to research adult friendships. And one of the questions that we were looking at was what are the different interpersonal challenges that come up? What are the different difficult situations

that people experience in their friendships? And this conflict of being caught in the middle is one of the more common and difficult friendship challenges that we go through. So you're like, you're onto something if you're finding this difficult. I think, again, this is where boundaries can be important. And sometimes those are more personal boundaries. And sometimes that might mean more interpersonal boundaries and saying, look, for example, I love you, but I also, you know that I love this other friend and I'm finding it difficult because I'm feeling like I'm a little bit caught in the middle because I want to support both of you again, focusing on yourself. And so what that means is for right now, I really am not comfortable hearing about this

conflict, right? That might be a step that you feel the need to take. But people differ, people differ depending on what the situation is and whether this is a feeling of being caught in the middle or whether the people around you have certain expectations of you in terms of taking sides. And so how you handle that will, will differ. But it is, it is challenging. Yeah. I love that you're saying like, it's really hard. And I do think some advice also can be like, the issue is not with you, but getting caught in the middle is very difficult and so I would I think that communicating immediately like hey I get it you guys have your thing going on and I I really hope you guys can hash this out but I I want to be so transparent that I really enjoy both of you and I

don't want to be put in the middle because I don't want either of you to think that I'm going and talking shit on you and then bouncing back and forth. So like, I totally get it if you need to vent and talk to someone, but I feel like I'm the wrong person because I don't want either of you to think I'm betraying your trust if you share something with me confidentially.

Then it kind of removes you and they're like, oh, well, shit. Okay, so I agree. It's almost creating a boundary for yourself because everyone's going to have issues with people at some point in their lives. But being stuck in the middle is just almost a placeholder for someone to just end up getting hurt themselves when the issue is not even yours. And I get it. There's a difference between then being someone that is like, I don't have a side. I'm just going to stay in the middle. Like, don't be that annoying person that just like,

doesn't have a backbone is like, I like everyone, but then is like also listening when the one friend is talking shit. And then you go to the next friend while they're talking shit. That's not fair. So I think creating a boundary for yourself and to them verbally will allow them to not feel like you're double dipping. Yeah. I mean, this is easier said than done, but your comment made me think of it. I think you don't, you don't want your friends to feel like you're not taking a side. You want your friends to feel like you're taking both of their sides. Because at the end of the day, you love them both. You want everyone to come back together and have a great time. Yeah, that's it. But this brings up another really important point,

which is that friendships do change and friendship dynamics and friendship groups do change. And so sometimes, yes, sitting in it and being in it and working through it is possible. And you get back to that place where the conflict has been navigated and people are close again and everything's sunny. And sometimes it's almost like this is the beginning of the end, right? And I think that this is really common again in friendship groups and in friendships in our 20s where those changes are playing out. And so that can bring with it like quite a bit of sadness too, of like things are changing. And this is, this is the beginning of this friend group as we knew it. That was about to be my next question of

like, if someone is wondering whether or not they need to end a friendship, what types of questions should they be asking themselves? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, this is, I think, one of the most important friendship experiences that we need to be talking about because there are very few people who have never lost a friendship. And the reasons why we lose touch with friends or we go through, you know, quote unquote, friendship breakup really differs. Sometimes, yes, it is this big, what I like to call a transgression, right? Somebody has done something to really violate one of those friendship norms. And that just feels like, I can't trust you. That's a betrayal. I'm out. But more often than not, it's actually the kind of gradual growing apart of, I don't feel as close to you. I don't

feel as connected to you. I've changed. And so we no longer connect the same way we used to, or just life circumstances make it so that we can't keep in touch. And that can be even more complicated sometimes because when there's a very clear transgression, we almost feel like we've, it's easier to give ourselves permission to let go, right? Well, yes, of course, I'm going to end that friendship. They did this terrible thing and, you know, screw them. But when it's, well, we just don't really connect the same way, or I just don't really feel as close to them, or we just don't share the same values, or we don't live in the same city. We can really feel like we need a permission slip to end a friendship. And I think for me, one of the most telling

questions is, do I want to stay in this friendship or do I feel obligated to? That to me is so powerful and something that we don't often check in with ourselves about. And those shoulds, those obligations can come from so many different places, right? Our ideas about what it means to be a good friend or a good person. There's a lot of talk, I hear this all the time about like, you know, how beautiful and special childhood friends are. Yes, absolutely. But only when you still feel close, not when this isn't somebody who you really would ever choose to be with. Right. So I think, yeah, that, that question of choice versus obligation is important. And really, and this actually comes back to what we were first talking about, how do I feel, right? How do I feel when I'm with this person, when I spend time with them, when I see my phone ringing or a text

message, am I dreading that it's them? Or do I feel a little bit of a spark? Those questions are so important. And balancing that with this idea of patterns or history and chronicity, because yes, there are always going to be moments where our best friend says something that pisses us off. And I don't feel great in that moment. Don't say that fucking thing. Right. But if we're feeling that all the time, that is telling. That is really telling. So looking at the overall big picture as much as possible and looking for patterns, that is key. It's such good advice. And I guess one of my last questions, though, is like I could see people listening and being like, oh, my God, I do relate to that. But do you feel and I guess it is circumstantial of like, when is a conversation warranted to end a friendship?

And when is it okay to just slowly let it burn out because you're both kind of on the same page or like, we're not really talking anymore? Yeah. Oh my gosh, I could talk about this for far too long. So this too was one of those things that I studied actually, like what are the different ways that we do end our friendships?

And yes, having the explicit conversation is one of those ways. And that is one of those social norms, again, that we have in our romantic relationships. We want the conversation. We expect it. We need that for clarity and closure very often. But we feel very differently when it comes to our friendships. And actually, this is so interesting. A lot of people crave that or will report that they crave that. And I do these polls in my online Instagram community all the time talking about these kinds of things. And the vast majority of people will say, yes, I want that clarity. I want to know that this friendship was over. But when you ask them, well, are you doing that for other people or do other people do that

for you? No. And so there's such a mismatch between what we actually want and what's actually happening. I would say very often the slow fade and fizzle out is what happens. And that works well until it doesn't. And very often what I see is that people start to do that. And when both people are on the same page, great. But when one friend is still kind of one foot in, one foot out, and we're really invested in the other person is just checked out, that doesn't work so well. People want answers. And so sure, try the slow fade, but you might still end up at the conversation. And so I think we need to be talking about how do we have those conversations? Yes. And how do we have those conversations?

You're like, oh, do you have five hours? I don't know. No, that's a very fair follow-up question. People really differ here. It's funny you bring this up. There was something that went very viral on TikTok a couple of weeks ago. I don't know if she was a therapist or someone modeling this type of friendship breakup discussion. And people were so split about like, that is really respectful or that feels completely robotic. And I would just feel horrific if that happened to me. I think, again, this is this is going to be painful. And I think owning that there is probably no one right way to do this, where people will leave feeling like that was fun, I'd have that conversation again, right. But sometimes it does need to be had, because we want to one, make it clear that this is the ending of this

connection that I can't invest in this friendship in the way that I used to or in the way that you want me to, to make those expectations clear. And that's really important when somebody continues to reach out and we feel like they're not getting the message or we feel like this is just taking a toll on our wellbeing. So being clear about what you're able to do and what you're expecting or what you're not able to do, that's important. This idea of having mutual friends, this is also important, right? Because sometimes it's not just about that one friendship ending, it's what that means for the friend group. And so sometimes having a discussion about like, how are we going to, you know, share custody of our mutual friends? Like what's going to happen here? Those kinds of conversations

might need to be had. And sometimes there are also friendships where we're ending it, but we potentially want to pick this back up. This isn't because again, somebody has done something egregious or we just really dislike the other person. It's just not right now. And so sometimes those conversations are like us closing the door, but also leaving it a little bit ajar so that we can pick it back up if or when it makes sense. I agree. And like, not that I want to be like bread crumbing friends here, but I, as you were saying that, I do think there is something to be said for if you feel like a conversation is warranted and you don't want it to be as dramatic as you genuinely feel in your heart, you can always say like, I just feel like right now our

relationship is not serving either of us in the way that it used to. And I've been feeling like drained. I'm going to be honest with you. Like if I get a text from you or something and it could be on me, it could be what I'm going through. I don't like, you know, I know you're going through stuff, but like there's just something right now where I think I need to take a break from this. I don't hate you. I love you. Like I wish you the best, but I think right now I'm not in a place right now to be putting as much into this friendship as maybe we used to be. And that's that. And then what ends up happening

though, is you're not like, we're never going to be friends ever again. Like it's more just, they'll get the hint because you did sort of have this direct conversation of saying, I can't put more into this. And then if they are, if they end up texting you the next week, you don't have to answer. And if they then continuously text you, then they're pretty unselfaware. But I mean, I also, it brought up for me and I know we're coming to the end here, but I did end a friendship like right before I went to college. And it was with someone that I was like, so, so close with, but it had gotten to a point where I just felt like I kept being used for certain social things. But then when I needed the person, it was like blowing me off in like moments where

I was like dressed and ready to go to the party. And she was, she actually like never answered me because she wanted to go and have all the guys and like never answered me because she wanted to go and have all the guys and like not invite me. All these crazy things just kept happening that in my mind, I felt so burned and so hurt. And then there was a big thing that ended up happening right before college where she didn't pull through and show up. And for myself, I knew if I'm going to go to college, I, this could be a good opportunity for me to get some distance from this person that I'm so close to. And I had that conversation. I said, listen, this whole, these past two years have just been, I feel like I'm getting really

let down and maybe I'm putting myself out there too much. Maybe I'm, I feel like maybe I've been doing a little more and you're, you maybe are at a different point in our friendship. And so I think I need a little bit of a break so that I can not, I don't want to have resentment towards you. And so I think sometimes again, it's like owning it yourself. There's nothing to say from the other person. If you're like, I kind of feel like I need a little break. Maybe I just feel like maybe I'm not getting what I want out of this. Like you can almost act a little selfishly because then there's nothing for the other person to say and you're taking care of yourself and your boundaries. Yeah. It doesn't become a conversation where they're trying to convince you otherwise. And some of that might happen, but it's not the same flavor as it might be. Totally. And I think you're not going at them

saying you did this and you did that. Then they can defend themselves. If it's how you feel, no one can tell you how you feel. Only you can say how you feel. Exactly. And I think you, you sharing that example is so helpful because it sounds like that happened at somewhat of a transition period. And we do see that friendships change during transition periods. Some people lose touch, some people become closer, but I think to your point before about like, what questions should we be asking ourselves? We also want to ask ourselves, is the energy that I'm putting into this friendship that like really isn't serving me, is that taking me away from other connections, from other relationships and friendships that I have right now, from other

ones that I might want to build, from could be, would be friends. That is really important because we all will need to make new friends throughout our lives. Like there's very cool research showing that as we grow and when we become adults in our twenties and beyond, we lose half our friend group every seven years, but we also lose half our friend group every seven years, but we also replace half our friend group. And so there's this constant fluidity in our friendships where we are ending connections, but also in a position where we are tasked with making new ones. Such a good point. And just to also wrap up that story, I was thinking like, we now talk after we didn't talk all of college and she reached out after college and we have like

a totally mutual friendship and it's like there's no bad beef and it's now though at the expectation that I think we both are comfortable where I had enough time to heal from constantly feeling like I was being fucked over or left behind and I was unable to focus on other friendships and now in our adult life we're not course, as close at all, but there is a mutual respect and an understanding. And I do think that is really healthy. And I agree. I've made so many friends in my adult life now

and have my childhood friends that I'm still close with, but it's understanding that they're all gonna evolve and they're all gonna change, but you have to be self-aware enough to know what part you're taking in that change and that evolution. And I know it's sad and I know it's scary, but knowing, like you said, you will find new friends and maybe they will be even stronger because you're meeting them at a time and it's a different time in your life where you feel more you than you ever have. And so I just, I love everyone listening and I want you guys to hopefully take a lot from this episode because I know friendship is a vital part of surviving and

living and feeling like you have self-worth and you have a purpose. But let's normalize that it can be very, very difficult and social media makes it look like everyone's got a million friends. That is not the case and you are not alone. So Dr. Kermire, I cannot thank you enough for coming on. We definitely need to have another conversation at some point because we probably could have talked for five hours. I don't want to shut up. You just said that. And I'm thinking like, oh, we should talk about levels of friendship. There's so many other things to talk about. We should, we, you know what we should, let's connect and we should do an episode about levels of friendship because again I think this is like a multi-tiered episodic theme that really I think

everyone would love to hear more and more about just because even sitting here today it gives me a lot to think about I'm sure you thought a lot about your personal friendships and I think everyone listening would love to keep the conversation going so thank you so much for bringing your expertise but also don't go away because we should do another episode soon. Okay, that's good. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun.