Call Her Daddy - Understanding the Baggage I Bring to My Relationship

Episode Date: June 11, 2023

Join Alex and Lauren as they dive deep into their personal journeys and unpack the emotional baggage they brought into their current romantic relationships. Alex opens up about how her desire for independence unintentionally created distance between her and her partner, while Lauren discusses her previous approach to conflict and how it hindered her relationship. They explore the importance of compromise and the ongoing effort required for a healthy partnership. Alex reveals a relationship rule she and her fiancé follow, avoiding difficult conversations after consuming alcohol. Meanwhile, Lauren shares how her current relationship has shed light on underlying triggers from her chaotic upbringing. In this raw and honest conversation, they lay everything on the table, offering valuable insights for the Daddy Gang to learn from their personal struggles.

what is up daddy gang it is your founding father alex cooper with call her daddy i love this fireplace it makes it feel so cozy um okay we're cozy we're back oh we're back we're full from our pizza we're warm it's like a little cold out there but it's not as bad no this is like normally chicago's just gray and there was sunshine today love that for us love that for us so we're both kind of on the same page right now in terms of we're in committed relationships and i feel like you and i have both had very different experiences prior to our current relationships of pretty toxic tumultuous relationships that looked different for both of us but we were in them and now we're like seven years you had seven of them exactly Lauren

hitting me with the hard facts and I think it's important to everyone listening although you and I are sitting here being like we're both in healthy relationships while that can be true it can also be true that our relationships aren't perfect and I think it's always good to explain that because I think something on the internet I always recognize is I think a lot of people once they find that healthy relationship are embarrassed or ashamed to admit like we still fight I fight with Matt like we have our issues it's not perfect so even though you're in this like year relationship that obviously is making you so happy can you kind of peel back the layers of like but it's all not perfect it's not just like yay we met and we're in love now the first thing that I learned was that when you're in a healthy relationship

qualities that you're still working on within yourself become like very apparent very quickly so like things that like I maybe would have got to eventually work on within like my own therapy like I was like hit in the face with them like oh fuck like I gotta work through this shit because I'm like dumping it on him can you give us an example yes I guess like the way that I approached arguments, like when we would get in an argument, my mind would go to like, I have to prove my point. And like I wasn't listening to what he was saying

or where he was coming from or what was bothering him. I was trying to like out-argue and out-maneuver and like disprove him and like win an argument. When you're in a healthy relationship, it's not about winning an argument it's about seeing both sides I mean like how did we get here and why do we each feel this way and like moving from that perspective I feel like you're so right though and like there's such a difference when you get into a relationship that you're like I really really want to make this work like this is like right now I'm gonna prioritize this and I'm not gonna bullshit myself and I'm not gonna also give myself free passes of like well it's their fault because at the end of the day you want it

to work all of a sudden when you're having issues you have to always have like I remember Matt and I always would talk about this like no one is winning we actually have to just find a way to get back to like how do we move on from this and how do we each feel seen from our perspective and how do we move on and like in a weird way like learning how to fight yeah is like that's like a whole I feel like segment that takes a long time in a relationship to figure that out and like are you still kind of in that phase yes and that's like that's where it gets like really deep for me because it's bringing up a lot of like I guess it's I love how I'm saying I guess this is trauma it's Lauren it's bringing up a lot for me in my past about like learning how to fight because my dad was very severely mentally ill. He had bipolar disorder and he would be manic and I would be the one who'd be arguing with someone who's manic. And in my mind, it was like, well,

you're crazy and I'm right. And I guess similar to my last relationship, which is funny how they're like repeating themselves. It was similar where like I just like pinned it as like, you're crazy, you're wrong. And like anything like I can take no fault or like no accountability here. That's so interesting, too, because I think about like you got so good with your dad at like also compartmentalizing like you're you're wrong I need to survive so I'm gonna be right and then like I do think when you got into that seven-year relationship weirdly it like mimicked a lot of your relationship with your dad but I in a weird way also think and that's like anyone that has trauma, like you're not attracted to it, but it's familiar to you and you know how to survive in that environment.

And so even though I remember I used to always say to you, like that relationship is safe to you. That's why you're not leaving. It wasn't safe in any way. You weren't being like respected. You weren't, it wasn't healthy, but to you, you knew how to do it. You knew how to have someone be going through illness or whatever. And you could like easily combat that. Like it was like second nature to you you knew how to do it you knew how to have someone be going through illness or whatever and you could like easily combat that like it was like second nature to you because that was like the wall

that I had like built so deep that like if in my mind I can justify that like I think you're being crazy whatever crazy means that like it doesn't cause me to feel anything because it doesn't make sense to me so like I that doesn't upset me or like that doesn't bother me or like I'm not jealous about that or like go do whatever you're going to do. And like I'm my own person because like that is the mentality I had to have my entire life to survive. I appreciate you sharing this on the podcast, too, because I feel like every time someone does open up in that way, the amount of dms I also get

from people being like okay fuck maybe I do need to work on myself because like I had something traumatic happen to me when I was younger and I haven't worked through it but I keep like having this I'm hitting a wall in all of my relationships and daddy gang I hate to say it but almost 100% of the time it's going to be because you haven't resolved shit from your past. And so you're like need to unlearn the shit that you may have been survival mechanism. Yeah. But they're like so ingrained in you. Like I remember we were having a conversation, you with money.

Oh. And a trigger for you is like you are always, you're in survival mode of like I need to take care of myself. Like I remember you at like six, 17, having to like learn how to do your entire family's taxes and like take it over. And I'm like now I think in your every relationship you have this like aversion to like instability because you don't want to feel it again. So you like only can rely on yourself. I don't know if I'm saying that correctly. No, you are. And like I didn't realize it was like such an aversion until I got in this relationship.

And my boyfriend was like, I'm confused. Like you're being very unempathetic in these situations and you're like grilling me. Like for example, he would come home and say that he had a bad interaction with someone at work like a very normal thing and I would start like interrogating him unconsciously because my mind is going well is he doing bad at his job is he gonna get fired is he gonna be on the streets am I gonna be providing for the two of us like I didn't like consciously really realize at first that's where

my mind was going and like I was like well, did you do what you're supposed to do? Like, why is she mad at you? Like, are you doing enough? It just made me realize like this is so it sounds so backwards. But until you get into a relationship with a partner that's willing to like try to make it work and be a healthy balance and you're like a good fit for each other you actually never have to acknowledge all like your baggage and your demons and all the shit that we all have that's like our flaws or like what we should work on because when you're in toxic relationships and even if it's not toxic even if it's just like they're not the one you're not that invested you're not that upset if it doesn't work out you can keep kind of moving the way you

do and letting all of your past just like this is who I am if you don't like it get the fuck out then when you meet someone like your new boyfriend that's like wait Lauren hello where did you go like this is not who I'm used to seeing and like think what you just yeah like what you just said like obviously this still exists this trigger and this like fear of like financial instability like still existed because growing up there was a time when like all of a sudden one day like the electricity was off and like we didn't know where we're gonna live it was like that level of like and I thinking back I remember just like feeling like fucking scared and like that innate feeling like can come back so easily and like when it was just like me being

single like that was still there but I was just overcompensating it for a way of like being a super high achieving in my job out of like fear of like well I can never lose a job and you were the only person that could disappoint yourself exactly and I was just like I won't disappoint myself so then when you let someone else in that you do love, and then like, I think you're like, you're saying like, my boyfriend's coming home with like pretty rational, normal things happening and your triggers. And had it been maybe your last relationship,

you would have been like gone off on him and not actually heard his side because it wasn't the right relationship. It wasn't gonna be a healthy situation you knew in the long run. Now it's like, it's encouraging, but it's also scary to think that it's okay if you're sitting at home daddy gang and you maybe haven't found that like

clicking healthy relationship yet because that means you're probably not ready for it yet like I look back at my past and like the partners that I chose are so we're so fucked up of like so much chaos and drama and just like everything was like high stakes and like high strung and it was so much back and forth and like it was just because I wasn't ready to like actually look inward of like my personal insecurities and I always held myself to be like I don't need you like I can leave at any second when really I was like in love and like hurt. And I, but I could never show my emotions. And I think that goes back to the whole bullying thing of like, just wanting people to like me.

So when I would like get the prize, when I would get the guy, I then also didn't want to get rejected because that's how I felt in my childhood all the time rejected by guys. And so I was like so insecure that my defense mechanism was being like I don't really give a fuck and then I go home and cry alone after like breaking up with someone because I thought they were going to break up with me and it was like I was constantly running from the fact that I was like I have feelings I do have insecurities and I need to find a partner that makes me feel safe that we can have conversations that when those insecurities are coming up and when I don't feel good enough like the conversation like when this is going down

like my boyfriend wasn't like Lauren like what the fuck like what's wrong with you yeah it was like let's take a pause something feels off here like are you okay like what's what's this bringing up for you I just feel like we're we're both getting to a place and I think everyone will have that moment like I didn't really envision what it would feel like until you're in it where weirdly healthy relationships take so much fucking work if not more than your past like flings or situationships or toxic situations because you're like able to just you're only giving yourself and you're not actually having to I don't know like I'm not saying for every relationship but most of my situations were like I wasn't really

compromising I wasn't really compromise oh my gosh don't get me started on compromise right I was not good at compromising and now you're finding yourself being like fuck like two people i don't give a fuck if it's romantic if you're in a job if you're in a friendship like yeah if you actually want two human beings to work in a situation you have to do a given pull and that i think is like the beginning of a healthy relationship is finding that balance and it's fucking hard at first what's a compromise you recently made in your relationship I'm really good at communication in terms of like in the emotional moments of like connecting with my partner but in the day-to-day I think that I can be very individually focused that I had to start thinking about Matt of like every fucking day Matt goes downstairs he gets me coffee he

brings it up he asks me what I need that day he'll go to work he'll text me cute things and like we may have different love languages that's not it it's like I feel like I was not really giving him the like mutual respect of like hey like you're my partner like I can communicate not just when it's hard like I feel like I'm like so good in moments like even with friendships I feel like when someone's going through shit I'm like talk to me like I'm in it but then the day to day I realize I need to compromise on like being selfish of like I'm an individual I love my job I'm in it I never would like he would just be like sometimes you could just like send me a text like when you're coming home like it

doesn't have to only be like the morning and the end of the day like it can life can exist in between yes my therapist always says that to me like I'm very I'm working on it a lot and I don't know how to explain it kind of it's like I'm very like it's all or nothing so I've had to like work on communicating better to him and having respect for his time and his schedule and like what he's up to he's I never don't know where Matt is like he's so just good at communicating in that way and I feel like sometimes I then become unloving of like I'm a little cold in those moments where he's like, hello, like. Is that something like, did he, how did he bring up this conversation to you?

Like, did he express it as like, I need a little bit more from you? Like you're making me feel. Yeah. Yes. Matt, what like is so his mom is a therapist. So he's been in therapy. That was like the one thing I was like, yes. Like he's very in tune with his emotions.

He's very in tune with his emotions he's very emotional and he was like I just want you to understand like it doesn't feel great to me that I feel like I'm always trying to take care of you and be there for you and like there's just times where I feel like you're not it takes like two seconds to send me a text to like check in and just like even when I'm on a trip I used to like go to bed and like sometimes I wouldn't even text him but it would just because I wasn't thinking about it and it's like be more thoughtful like because he's in bed like wondering like I hope she's safe and those were things that I was like why do you need to know I feel like I was like moving through my life so focused on my independence and so like I can survive alone that like letting in a partner was like really difficult for me to like aside from like logistical shit like being more thoughtful

to the other person's feelings I can be laser focused on something but then like yeah it's a deficit of mine to like I look around and I'm like oh like I haven't like texted anyone today like I was literally working on the podcast for 12 hours and I'm like that's great for the podcast but then I have like my personal life still exists outside of the podcast and that's what Matt used to say to me he's like life is going on and you're literally in your editing bubble over there and I think yeah I think that's something that I've worked on is like, there's a lot that goes into this job that is very like, there's a lot of pressure. It feels very isolating at times. And so I sometimes just kind of like close off and I'm like, I can't have distractions. I need to get it done.

And I think I've just been that way through a lot of things in life. And I, but I do, I have talked about it to my therapist of like, I think that there's a lot that goes back to like being so insecure and getting bullied when I was younger I would go into my room close my door and not let anyone know that I was like in pain so I have a lot of that that I'm still working through like it's okay to like cry in front of Matt oh I, I'm the exact same way. Like I literally, I think I said this on like another episode. When I first started therapy, my therapist made me print out an emotion wheel so that I could like, she'd be like, you're telling me how you're feeling with like logic, like say an emotion.

I'd be like, she's like, look down at your chart pick an emotion and like i think that you with your bullying and like wanting to handle that alone and me growing up with like such instability in my home and like being the parent of my home and like the oldest child in like feeling like i was like keeping everyone like the one like keeping everyone up and like I didn't have anyone I could go to for help like I had this like distrust of like if I ask for help like it's not no one's gonna help me so like any problem is like on me which is like both of us have these like individual like things get bad I turn inward when you're in a relationship that makes someone feel like hello like do you even like yeah like what like I'm over here yeah I know so many people are probably gonna listen to this and the difference of how we where we're coming from

and yet there's such similar themes of how we like act in relationships I think I'm sure so many people are like I am this way too and I think I mean then we we both have friends on the other side of the spectrum that are like heavily emotional and that also is like totally fine we're like I feel like we're more like these ice queens that we yeah why are we not like lovey and sweet like I'll fight like not like fight like I'll be in disagreement with my boyfriend and he's like Lauren like you're being silent like you're not saying anything in my mind I'm like trying to like force myself to be like say something and like feel something and

I'm like I'm working it's about to come out give me a second it's like the Grinch. It's literally the Grinch. So what if like you're ahead of me, I think a little bit in this process, you've been in a relationship longer in moments where you and Matt are in disagreement or you're not seeing eye to eye and you're feeling like ice queen, come on. Like, like I just want to walk out the room or like,

I just want to ice you out. Like, what do you do now in those moments? Okay. So it's so funny because Matt and I were talking about this the other day. The only time I would say in the past year that Matt and I get in fights is when we drink. And I usually instigate the fights. And I don't know what, like.

Are they like a similar theme or just all over the place? Random. Like something will happen and I'm like. And it's not every time we get drunk. But the only time throughout the past year I can think of like four fights and it was when we were intoxicated and so now Matt and I have basically created a rule and like when we're sober I'm like the rule is so good I love the rule it's such a good boundary when I'm drunk what's the rule so the rule is that if we're fucked up we go to bed we do not try to have a fight while we're drunk and i don't care

if we're like only tips or whatever we're not thinking clearly and so when i'm drunk though i'm like wake up like i'm like talk to me because then i'm like you can't just go to sleep and so i'll be like trying to talk to him and he now knows alex we've talked about this and every time i wake up in the morning because he literally will roll over and he'll just go to sleep and in the morning and I'll be like mother fuck and then I'm like okay good night and then I like pass out because I'm drunk and then in the morning every single time I'm so relieved that we stopped it there because prior to that the year before we would go at it when we were drunk and we would just spiral and we're like what are we even talking about now and so now matt is so good at like upholding that rule because then in

the morning he's like i feel so fortunate he's like the most loving person i've ever met in my life he'll come to me even if he was the one that kind of like instigated it he'll kiss me on the forehead wake me up and be like, good morning. I love you. Let's talk about what happened. And then we have this rational conversation of like, yeah,

I don't know why I was doing that. So it's like having, I think when you're fighting, it's, there's an endless route that each of you can see where you want it to go, especially when there's alcohol involved. It's never fucking smart to fight when you're drunk. It's never going to work out. That is the worst feeling when you're it to go, especially when there's alcohol involved, it's never fucking smart to fight when you're drunk. It's never going to work out.

That is the worst feeling when you're like, wait, what are we even fighting about anymore? But now I'm just like fucking pissed at you and like, I just want to keep going. Yes. And that's where I think, again, like trying to create, and when I say I'm in a healthy relationship,

it's not like forever now. It takes every fucking day. You have to make an effort to feel like it's healthy and again it doesn't mean it's perfect it just means I now have the ability to like know that no matter what Matt is always trying to work shit out with me because we love each other and we want the end goal to be let's get back to being good and so and our interest is not in just our individual selves anymore it's like this is a partnership like did I hurt you in any way did you hurt like let's talk and I just think there's like it takes a time though like past relationships I would be

like fuck you like I'm drunk like go fuck yourself like talk to me and if you if you go to bed right now I'm leaving like you're just like there's just immaturity there yeah you don't see the end goal correctly like i feel like that made me think of like like that's stupid that you're sad like i don't get why you're sad like why are you feeling that way like the other day my therapist was like lauren emotions are not logical but that doesn't mean that someone's not feeling them you can't disprove someone's emotions because you don't like that they're feeling them. And I was like, oh, that must have like hit you so hard. You're like, don't tell me that. Yeah.

So now are you do you find yourself being able to like be more loving towards your boyfriend when he is coming to you with an emotion? I'm legitimately currently working on it still because this is like deeply rooted in me and like I think another part that if you grew up in like a chaotic household my dad was very verbally loud and aggressive when he was going through things and towards my mom and I there are instances where like since he was like the breadwinner of the family and like at like through his illness like very very bright I would identify with him and when he would tell my mom like shut up like stop crying and so like I learned to identify that like emotions are like feeling sad and sorry like I learned to identify that like emotions are like feeling sad and sorry for yourself or like stupid and they're not going to get you anywhere and like

pick yourself up and like keep going so like I have that reaction towards other people like even something happened with a friend the other day and I was telling my therapist and she's like where is the empathy and I'm like yeah you're right but I think like my advice for daddy gang you can always take accountability for something always in every type of disagreement you can own something and like once you make that first like concession it opens up the conversation for like a much more I agree vulnerable dynamic and what I learned is saying I'm sorry but it's not an apology because I would say well I'm sorry you're feeling that way but like I don't really see why you are because I actually didn't do that and like I did do this instead and I didn't mean to make you feel

that way so like I get that you're feeling that way and I guess you're feeling sad but like I don't really know what you want me to say because that doesn't make sense to me. Okay. And this is a perfect example. I'm like, Lauren, this is a perfect example of if you were not in a relationship with someone that you actually loved and was a healthy dynamic of him being like, Lauren, like you're being mean. Yes. I think that's like, we were talking about that, me and you the other day where like,

it sounds stupid, but I think there's power in any type of argument whether it's a partner a friend a family member instead of like trying to disprove what they're saying or tell them not to say it like just saying like that hurt my feelings what is someone gonna say to that so true we were we were talking about that in the car we were like there's just moments where if you don't know what to say and you're trying to express yourself to your partner again this is all predicated on if your partner is also like respects you respects you like if someone's like that hurt like you've like right if i said that hurt my feelings and i was like well that's fucking stupid right that's like then you're in the wrong relationship

but I feel like if you had said that to your past boyfriend he would have probably said something similar to that and same with me to my exes and I said to my current partner that hurt my feelings and he was like oh my gosh Lauren like and just like hugged me and you're like oh my god this is what it feels like to be allowed to feel feelings. I was going to say though, but then Lauren, next time he says that you need to get up and hug him. No, that's another thing I learned. So like when I'm struggling to have feelings and emotions, I have to be like,

it's like a body thing. Like I have to like reset, like my like nervous system because like something is triggering me where I'm like entering this like fight or flight mode. And like, I don't have like rational reset, like, my, like, nervous system. Because, like, something is triggering me where I'm, like, entering this, like, fight or flight mode. And, like, I don't have, like, rationality. So I have to be, like, let's pause and, like, we literally, like, hug. And, like, it, like, takes my, like, arousal state down. And I can start to be, like, okay, like, now my thoughts aren't kind of, like, spiraling into, like, he's going to lose his job and be homeless. Now I can be, like, okay like okay like let me listen as like

a rational person now as much as you may want to be like get away from me in the middle of a fight it like physically does something for you to like be like let's pause and like hug each other you have such and I know it's gonna always be an ongoing process for you of like unpacking understanding but if someone is sitting here relating to you in terms of having a fucked up childhood where's the alcohol if someone is sitting here that has whether it was like an abusive parent or a mentally ill parent do you have any high level advice of like where to begin repairing your individual sense of self that was so hurt and affected by that parental figure? Whoa. I think it's less my sense of like for me to speak on like repairing is less my sense of self and more of these like learned reactions and like

unconscious like states that I go into and being able to recognize when I'm in those. And I think that's what we've been talking about this whole time of like me reacting and like wanting to like disprove them or win an argument or me reacting and wanting to literally run away like when we initially started fighting when we were first dating I'd be like I'm leaving you're leaving and I'd be like I'm out like I'm leaving I home. And like, like why, like why did I like, I think it's understanding like your reactions and these states that you get into and then like working backwards from there. And it's a lot of work. Like the other day I was telling my therapist, I was like, fuck, like

this is a lot. Like, am I going to be like dealing with this shit forever and she was like i am so sorry but probably oh my god that makes me cry lauren but i mean i think there's like a sense of empowerment in it when it's like i've like i have like when you're aware to the most degree you're more in control of it and like I think it's I take pride in like how much work that I like put into myself and like my relation are you crying no I just like think I a little keep going sorry I just love you and I'm so proud of you and I feel like I've seen like I remember the day that you were getting into therapy because you were like really going through it and I remember like you realizing you're like I think I've been like dissociating from my emotions for and then you

like almost spiraled because you're like I don't know how long like how many years have I been like not connecting and I remember like I think it was I think it's always been like strange and I I just feel so like fortunate that you have been so like watching you get into therapy and be so invested in like fuck this like I'm not gonna allow what he was doing to like fuck up my whole life yeah but like you said it takes so much because you have to relive it first yeah you have to relive like the trauma in order to be like okay the trauma goes here it never leaves you losing a parent that's taking their own life to mental illness is like there's like all those feelings like I think we've kind of talked about of like anger and like also like feeling like weirdly relieved that comes with guilt of like all the things watching you it just

makes me so proud of you because it's like you're doing all the fucking work in your 20s right now. And you're going to be able to have like a healthy life because you're putting in the absolute shit work, which most people don't fucking start to later. I was just going to say like, I mean, like I would never know this, obviously. But like unless I had that one really tangible thing, I was like it was like I I mean like I should probably go to therapy because this happened to me like it feels like something I should like maybe do I don't think I would have like actually gotten in therapy if like I didn't have that one like very like concrete thing that happened and like I definitely just feel like I live my life as like a better person like not better as like I don't do bad things but better as just like aware of what I'm doing at least yeah and I feel like it's also important to say like I feel like we're all so funny because like to every single person in our

friend group or like you have to get into therapy like it'll change your life like I don't care even if maybe you don't have a specific isolated like if you're like sitting at home and you're like I don't think I have trauma like it's so interesting then have it be like a fun experiment if you're able to like put yourself in a situation of finding a way to get into some type of therapy obviously i know like there's different like accessible versions and everything but like you all of a sudden start to unravel and you're like, Oh wait, that's why no one's fucking upbringing was perfect. I don't care if your parents are perfect.

What was your sibling dynamic? What was your relationship to your cousins? Your neighbors can be so like minuscule as like, there are moments where it feels felt like my parents favored my brother over me or like my parents were really busy and like we're both doctors and they didn't get to come to my sports games. Like that type of stuff. Like it doesn't get to come to my sports games like that type of stuff. Like it doesn't have to be like my parent died.

Like, yes, that type of stuff can like deeply affect you. Yeah. And then significantly affect you. And not only the way that you speak to yourself, feel about yourself, but fucking so affects you when you then have to get into a relationship with someone else where those things actually are like triggered and exacerbated when you start to like engage with someone that pokes these places that you're not even aware I didn't know we were gonna be preaching therapy today but you know that's like our bread and butter that's where our heart and soul lives and like even like I know you probably have these interactions on like the daily, but mine are more far and few between. But last summer I was at a restaurant eating and the waitress came up to me at the end and was like, I literally want to tell you you're the reason that I'm in therapy. And like, oh, like.

Damn. Yeah. Because she heard the episode. Yeah. One of them. one of them that we were preaching therapy yeah yeah no and I think it's like I always want to be careful because it's like if they're in a in a beautiful way therapy is completely getting way more normalized now now but it's a privilege and it's also a very individual decision that takes a lot to even just email or make the call because it's like the beginning of opening up pandora's box and like like, what I will say is like,

I really, really encourage if you're able to find whatever within your means you're able to do, do it. So I think what would also be helpful is at the end of this episode, I'm going to add a clip of us talking about how to find a therapist, how to find resources. Um, and you can go to the end of the episode if you want to listen to that. So you want to pour a drink now? I know I'm like, can you give us kind of like that two minute spiel that you were saying of like how to begin finding someone so there's different levels of professionals that you can seek your your psychologist has a PsyD. Mine has a PhD. Both are doctorate level clinicians,

typically more expensive, most likely may not accept insurance and will be out of network. You could see a social worker or clinical social worker or a licensed mental health counselor. And if you have insurance, I advise you to call your insurance company and ask what are my in-network mental health benefits and what are my out-of-network mental health benefits and you'll figure out what insurance will contribute. Or if you don't have insurance, I know that there's certain organizations

that you can connect with. I just, I don't know off the top of my head. That can help set up like they have like a therapy fund for people who can't afford it. And honestly, like it's kind of like a crapshoot. There's some really shitty therapists out there. And the best, best, best way is word of mouth. I agree. I feel like, I mean, that's how we both found our therapist is from word of mouth.

I think the minute, first of all, what's so great is if you ever hear anyone in your orbit talking about therapy, there's no shame. And then you go into them being like, hey, I know you mentioned your therapist. Like I obviously would love even if they can provide the therapist's email and you can send an email to that person. If you don't want to call, it's fine. But if you provide an email, they will, they will get back to you most of the time yeah i mean it's unethical typically if they don't yes so i agree a lot of it is based off of word of mouth because

again if you're not in the area then they'll be like oh i know three friends of mine that i went to my doctorate program with and now they are in Chicago or wherever or they have licenses there and then they can provide you that information but I agree I feel like in a beautiful way now so many people are getting in therapy that when you are able to find someone that is in therapy that is actually like the first beginning of the journey to finding that therapist because if that person likes their therapist then that person is probably qualified and is then going to have a network of therapists throughout the country that they're able then to spot you wherever you are.

Yeah. And you might have to call 10 people before you find one. I called seven. It is a lot of work. But again, as we talked about in this episode, like it's so fucking worth it. So if you feel like you're ready. Dive on in. Dive on in.