Call Me Back - with Dan Senor - Bonus Episode: Senator Dave McCormick & Dina Powell McCormick on Mentoring

Episode Date: March 29, 2025

Watch Call me Back on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@CallMeBackPodcastTo contact us, sign up for updates, and access transcripts, visit: https://arkmedia.org/Dan on X: https://x.com/dansenorDan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dansenorArk Media on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/arkmediaorgFor this special episode of Call Me Back, we sat down with two long-time friends, Dina Powell McCormick and Senator Dave McCormick, to speak about their new book, Who Believed in You: How Purposeful Mentorship Changes the World. We also discussed Senator McCormick’s work on Israel/Middle East foreign policy. Dina Powell McCormick is a partner at BDT & MSD Partners and was formerly a partner and member of the management committee at Goldman Sachs. She has served in various roles in government, including Deputy National Security Advisor in the first Trump administration, and in a number of senior positions in the White House and State Department under the George W. Bush Administration. David McCormick is a US Senator of Pennsylvania and Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on the Near East, South Asia, Central Asia, Counterterrorism. He is the former CEO of Bridgewater Associates and also served in high-ranking positions in the George W. Bush administration. Dina & David McCormick’s new book, Who Believed in You: How Purposeful Mentorship Changes the World: https://a.co/d/0uvZceYORhttps://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/who-believed-in-you-david-mccormick/1144556623?ean=9781400235919CREDITS:ILAN BENATAR - Producer & EditorMARTIN HUERGO - Sound EditorYARDENA SCHWARTZ - Executive Editor, Ark MediaGABE SILVERSTEIN - ResearchYUVAL SEMO - Music ComposerZIV GEDZELMAN - Additional Research

It's 2 30 p.m. on Friday, March 28th here in New York City as we get ready to transition to Shabbat. It's 9 30 p.m. on Friday, March 28th in Israel as Israelis and a week of the renewed war against Hamas and Gaza and as Israelis try to make sense of the images of Gazans seeming to finally rise up and protest against Hamas, a topic we'll be diving into in our next episode. And as 59 hostages are still being held captive by Hamas. Today for this special episode, we are doing something a little different.

We are going to have a conversation about a book, a book that's not about Israel and not about the Middle East, but it is yet a book that I think will be very relevant to many of our listeners and viewers, and I encourage them to read it. We'll be having a conversation with the authors. At the beginning of that conversation,

we are gonna touch upon some work that they are doing in the Middle East, but the majority of the conversation will be about their book. I'm sitting down with two close and longtime friends and dare I say mentors of mine, Dina Powell McCormick and Dave McCormick. By the way, I used to often refer to guests as longtime friends, but I've been told by many listeners, including Rachel Goldberg. Rachel, I'm looking at you who say that I dilute the term long time and close friend when I refer to so many people that way. But Dave and Dina, I am using it because they really are long time and close friends.

Dina has been a senior executive and partner at Goldman Sachs and at BT and MSD partners where she is today. She earlier served in government at the highest levels of the George W. Bush administration in the State Department and as the assistant to the president for presidential personnel, one of the most important positions in government that you've never heard of.

She's an immigrant to America from Egypt where her father was a captain in Anwar Sadat's army. Dina's most recent government position was as deputy national security advisor in the first Trump administration, where she played a major role in part that led to the Abraham Accords. President Trump actually recently appointed her

to the board of the US Air Force Academy. Dave McCormick has run many businesses in his career, including ultimately becoming CEO of Bridgewater Associates. He also served in several high ranking positions in the George W. Bush administration. He's a graduate of West Point, a PhD graduate of Princeton, a real underachiever. Dave served as a combat soldier in the first Gulf War. Today he serves as a U.S. Senator from Pennsylvania, where he was born and raised.

He was elected last November, as many of our listeners know, because as far as they were concerned and listening to Call Me Back, they'd think Dave's race for the Senate was the only race happening in America. In the Senate, the committees that Dave serves on include the Senate Energy Committee, the Banking Committee, and the Foreign Relations Committee. And I think especially interesting for the Call Me Back community, Senator McCormick is the chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on the Middle East, but more on that shortly. Dina and Dave are also the co-authors of a new book about mentorship, which is called

Who Believed in You, which will be released on Tuesday, but you can pre-order it now. We will post a link in the show notes for you to order it now. And we will talk about the book in a moment. Dina, Dave, good to see you guys. Hi, Dan. Thank you, Dan. Good to be with you.

Hey, this is a real treat. If our book could be half as successful as the Genius of Israel, we would be so lucky. Well, you know, you're going to get, we're going to call this the call me back surge in sales. All right. Before we get into the book, I want to spend a few moments on the Middle East and Dave, I guess I'll start by saying what is rare for a freshman senator is to become a chairman

of a subcommittee, especially one as relevant to global geopolitics and as relevant to a very intense real-time theater of war for a number of America's allies. So just for our listeners to understand, what is your mandate for being chairman of the subcommittee of the Foreign Relations Committee that deals exclusively with the Middle East? What does that mean? Well, you know, Chairman Risch is the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, but this subcommittee really gives me a platform and an opportunity to focus on the issues

of most relevance to the Middle East, most relevance to the region, Middle East and counter-terrorism. And so this gives me the opportunity to schedule hearings, conduct codells, and bring in experts to talk about the most pressing issues affecting the region. And for me, we're thinking about hearings

and trying to focus on deterring the Iranian threat. It's a moment, well, I'm sure we'll talk about, where there's unique strategic opportunity given the weakened state of Iran, how to deal with that, how to press forward, keep the pressure on in a way that minimizes that threat now that the terrorist proxies are on their back foot. Counterterrorism in general,

how it's connected around the globe, where is the funding coming for these counterterrorists or these terrorist movements? How can they be dealt with systematically and completely? And then of course, picking up on what you said about Dina's role in the Abraham Accords, what is the next chapter? So those are the kinds of hearings

that I expect that we'll be able to do. Dean and I are also planning, along with some others, a CODEL to the region in May. CODEL is an official congressional delegation, and a CODEL is when an official congressional delegation makes a trip to a foreign country to do official government work in that country. And so it sounds like you're organizing

a CODEL to the Middle East. Yeah, to Israel and probably some of the key Gulf countries. So the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, unlike say the Foreign Operations Subcommittee of the Senate Appropriations Committee, that committee and that subcommittee have real funding power. The Foreign Relations Committee does not,

but the Foreign Relations Committee obviously plays a major role in holding confirmation hearings for key officials to get appointed to foreign policy related positions, Senate confirmed foreign policy positions like the Secretary of State in the US government by the administration. And then it also can choose to just put a spotlight

on issues. So you can use your hearings. So sometimes these subcommittees are kind of sleepy and the chairman are not that kind of energetic or entrepreneurial. It sounds like you want to use the subcommittee to put a real spotlight on issues that you think deserve more attention.

It's absolutely right. It's a fantastic platform for bringing key issues to the fore, bringing in key voices from around the world. When heads of state come to the United States, they obviously typically spend time in the White House. They typically spend time with members of the Foreign Relations Committee. If you look at the history of the Foreign Relations Committee, the people that have

come from there have had huge influence on foreign policy. One of the beauties of being in the Senate and being in this position is it gives me the opportunity to shed light on what I think are some of the most pressing issues facing the world, facing the region and facing the United States, one of them being the existential threat posed by Iran, another being how we should stand by our ally Israel in a time of true duress. So obviously in dealing with Iran, there's a lot of speculation right now. I don't know how informed the speculation is, but there's a lot of speculation about what approach the administration will take towards Iran, and there are some that are advocating

for a more hawkish role, or at least supporting the Israeli government in pursuit of a more aggressive approach to Iran. And then there's some talk that President Trump may go for some kind of, at least attempt at a negotiated deal over the nuclear program before defaulting to something more consequential. How do you see your role in the middle of all of that?

The Senate will obviously play a role working closely hand in hand with the president as he develops his strategy. My personal view on this is I think it's smart to approach any discussions, any end state negotiations with Iran with a great deal of skepticism. I think history, history would give us lots of reason to have a deal of skepticism. I think history, history would give us lots of reason to have a lot of disbelief. I think if you are dealing with a country that explicitly wants to destroy you and says so as part of their national strategy to destroy Israel, to destroy the United States, then you should believe them. And we see a moment where Iran is uniquely weakened.

Its proxies, the Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis, to some degree, are all weakened and on their back foot. And Iran, we have seen, is also in a state of weakness, which can create great opportunity, but also a great danger in that weakened state. And so my view is that we should continue, and I think President Trump said this in many ways, a maximum pressure campaign through sanctions

Through tightening the news and peace through strength and that's the moment we're in I know the president has a strategy and is moving forward on it and I'm I'm hoping it will continue to be along that path Dave I mentioned the confirmation role that the committee has and During the confirmation hearing for Senator Rubio now now Secretary Rubio, you asked him a question about work you two had done or a piece, I think you may have co-authored before he was appointed Secretary of State, that I think was an early reach, shall we say,

an early window into what is a very hot topic right now. I just wanna briefly play that clip, and then I want you to just at least respond to that exchange with Rubio, because it very relevant you know as it relates to what's happening now. You know since October 7th there's been a disturbing rise in anti-semitism, pro-terrorist violence in our cities on college campuses. You and I had the opportunity to write an op-ed together and in that op-ed we called on foreign nationals who support Hamas or other terrorist organizations to lose their visas and

And to be sent back to their home countries as Secretary of State, of course You'll be responsible for overseeing the issuance of visas. How will you enforce our laws? To ensure that we remove supporters of terrorist groups from our country Listen, my view on this is one of common sense. If you apply for a visa to come into the United States and in the process of being looked at it comes to light that you're a supporter of Hamas, we wouldn't let you in. If we knew you're a supporter of Hamas, we would not give you a visa. So now that you got the visa and you're inside the U.S. and now we realize you're a supporter

of Hamas, we should remove your visa. If you could not come in because you're a supporter of Hamas, we should remove your visa. If you could not come in because you're a supporter of Hamas, you should not be able to stay on a visa if you're a supporter of Hamas. That's how I view it. And I think that's just an issue of common sense. And we intend to be very forceful about that. So Dave, is what we're watching now with the action

that the administration, the State Department, ICE, other agencies are taking, what you had envisioned? Yeah, it really is. Senator Rubio and I, he came and campaigned with me and we shared the belief that much of the horrible activity, the intimidation, the anti-Semitism we were seeing on campuses across the country, in Pennsylvania, University of Pennsylvania, were precipitated by outside groups, agitators, people that were coming in explicitly trying to stir ferment on our nation's campuses. And we both agreed and came to the conclusion that if you're here on some sort of visa, that comes with a certain set of conditions

that you're not going to violate the law, which many of them were, and that you're not going to encourage violence. If we knew in advance through the application process that those young men and women were going to be doing that, we wouldn't have allowed entry into the United States. So he and I both staked out a very strong position on that together in an opinion editorial. And I'm happy to say that that has come to pass, I think in part because of his leadership.

You know, those hearings bring focus. Yeah, they matter. Dina, two questions related to the Middle East. One is, first of all, you have always been, for as long as I've known you, a cautious optimist about progress in the Middle East. And obviously the peak of that optimism was the Abraham Accords, which you,

much of the work you had done in the administration played a role, a contribution to that outcome. And then also the enthusiasm you and I and others had about the possibility for normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia that was obviously on some kind of positive course and then was upended by October 7th, you know, God willing, the path will be resumed. You've always been an optimist and the darkest I've ever seen you as it relates to the Middle East was when you and Dave took a trip to Israel in the months after October 7th and

you were in a pretty dark place. I mean, as I said at the beginning of this conversation, there are still over 50 hostages being held. We're about to celebrate Passover. I can't believe I'm saying this. Pesach, the Jewish holiday. It'll be the second Passover. Terrific. That Israelis are being held chained and as we now know from those who have been released, tortured in the dungeons of Gaza. So I guess my question is, can you describe how you felt at that time

and then how you are now? Shattered is the right word and I'll let Dave speak to his reactions to our trip. We went to Israel after October 7th, went to Kfar Aza, we met with hostage families, we met with many of the injured, just sweet young girls that reminded us of our daughters who had gone to a music festival and lost limbs, were brutalized.

I remember calling you and saying, I now know what the face of evil is, but it isn't just evil, it's barbarism. And I was really not the same for quite some time because sitting with the hostage families, them being the same age as our children, and knowing they did not sleep a wink, all they were imagining is what is happening to my daughter, what is happening to my son, what is happening to my wife or husband. I just almost could not believe that that kind of evil exists in our world. And then to come full circle, you know, I met Hersh's parents, the Goldbergs. Yeah. Rachel and John.

And stayed a bit in touch with them. And I got really emotional with them, actually. And I was almost embarrassed. The lowest moment for me, I landed in Pittsburgh from a work trip I had. And I landed to reading about Hirsch and I just, I was sobbing so much in the airport, somebody actually asked if I was okay. This was when the news that he was killed. Yes. I just, I don't know, I just kept feeling that Rachel, the faith that she kept and the

hope that he was going to come home. And then to read that he had been so strong throughout it all and so wonderful to the other hostages that he was gonna come home. And then to read that he had been so strong throughout it all and so wonderful to the other hostages that he was with. Right, he became like this inspiration for the other hostages. If you know the line he used, if you know the why, you'll figure out the how. That's right.

Like almost coaching these other hostages on how to survive. Yeah, I think that was why this became such a big part of the campaign. You know, we live in Squirrel Hill around the corner from the Tree of Life. The synagogue where the killing of Jews occurred, it was like a mini program. Yeah, six plus years ago, we made this visit. You know, every Sunday there's a vigil in Squirrel Hill to remember and encourage and

focus on those hostages to send prayers to those hostages. We campaigned across Pennsylvania, we, you know, at University of Pennsylvania, we, you walk through the campus and you see this horrible examples of antisemitism and University of Pittsburgh, which is probably a mile from our home, a young man who was on our campaign,

had a McCormick shirt on and was carrying Israeli flag and American flag flag was assaulted. And so, you know, it wasn't one of those things, you know, sometimes when in political life, you're trying to figure out where am I going to focus my attention and energy and what is my messaging? This, this wasn't something we had to think a lot about. This was just a very genuine experience that we were having, which was, this was so horrific, what we saw there,

so terrible, so connected to the people in our neighborhood, the people across Pennsylvania. What was happening in our nation's campuses was so outrageous. What was happening around the world in many ways, in terms of embracing Hamas was so outrageous. What was happening in our own country on campuses was so outrageous that what was happening in our own country on campuses was so outrageous, that it just became very easy to be a voice of clarity

and conviction on these things because it was so heartfelt. And as listeners to this podcast know, it has made me crazy and I still can't get my head around the fact that there are, were Americans and there are Americans still being held, American citizens still being held. They should be household names. They're not, I know Dave, I think you've been working

with the hostages forum in Israel. Yeah, that's another thing I should have mentioned. That's one of the other benefits of this subcommittee, which is, we're gonna host a bipartisan meeting with my colleagues to bring focus to the hostages I've met with, we've met together, Dean and I, with many hostage families over the last year and a half, we've had a number come to visit us in the Congress,

but we're gonna hold an event and a briefing in the next few weeks. And unless something changes, we'll have Keith Siegel, who's an American hostage who was just released in February, Aviva Siegel, former hostage, his wife, Lea Horne, a released hostage whose brother is still in captivity, Etan Horn,

Ilya David, brother of current hostage. We're gonna continue to try to make sure that we bring focus and attention. We must not forget, we must bring these hostages home. It's, I know it's a very important goal of the president and we need to bring attention to it. And I'll just add to that again, Keith Siegel and Aviva,

specifically our American citizens. I think you're doing the event with Senator Rosen, and we need to bring attention to it. And I'll just add to that, again, Keith Siegel and Aviva, specifically are American citizens. I think you're doing the event with Senator Rosen, Jackie Rosen, so the bipartisan. Right, right, absolutely. Okay, that is extremely important, and I, at least, thank you for it. I wanna talk to you guys about your book,

and so I will make a semi-abrupt transition to that topic, but so be it, we can handle it. This book is about mentorship. The book, as I mentioned, is called Who Believed in You. The two of you each individually have been mentors to so many people, your podcast interviewer included, but I've never really thought of mentoring as like a social science.

It's almost like you guys approach this like the study, it's both anecdote and biography. These individual, you do these individual biographies of a bunch of fascinating characters who we all read about and know about in politics and business and military life and in the entertainment industry. These are all people we know in different contexts,

but you actually focus on who they think helped made them successful, but they're the people who helped made them successful that we would never know about. So it's partly anecdote, the book, and partly, almost like, as I said, the social science of mentoring, and then also, I think, an advice book for people

on how to mentor or how to be mentored. So I guess my question is, why did you want to write this book? Yeah, well, I think that this was not, it didn't start as a book. That was the first thing. We were in the middle of COVID. The book's been written for a couple of years and we put it on hold

because we were in the middle of a, of a little busy. Yeah. A losing campaign. In fact, I'll start by saying, if your marriage can survive COVID, a losing campaign, a winning campaign, and writing a book, you're off to a good start. And when we were with our six daughters together in COVID and they were disconnected from their family and friends and teachers and, you know, it was just very isolating. You know, we were through some of this with you, Dan. And we started to talk about the importance of those human connections and the

fact that in my case and Dina's case, literally there are a couple people that changed our lives. Had they not existed, had they not come into our lives, who believed in us, saw something in us. In my case, it was a high school football coach who, I was a sophomore in high school, not a particularly good football player. He saw something in me, elevated me, made me co-captain of the team,

and it literally changed my life. I ended up being an all-state football player, and that helped me get into West Point. Without him, I wouldn't have been on this path. So we started to talk about that and talk to others about it. We talked to many of our common friends, and these are very prominent people, as you said,

Oscar-winning producer, captains of industry. So Brian Grazer, for instance, and then Steve Schwartzman. Exactly, Alex Skorsky. Sachin Adela from Microsoft. Exactly, all of them, same story. A couple people in their lives changed everything. And so we started to think we're onto something, and it's a moment where there's so much distrust

and anxiety and polarization and it's overwhelming. What do you do? And this is something we can all do. So the message of the book is, you know, we can all make a huge difference for individuals, for our communities, for the country, by mentoring others. And we've been the beneficiaries of that. And we want this book to not only be a fun book to read,

an inspiration to read, we want it to be really something that catalyzes a movement where people ask themselves, what can I do? Who can I mentor to help the next generation? I was thinking about that point as I was reading the book because you allude to it that COVID really suffocated the opportunities for mentor-mentee relationships. People don't talk about that enough.

It goes way past our kids in this generation missing high school graduation, college graduation prom. If you think about it, they missed two to three years of meaningful human connectivity, mentorship, high school internship, college internships, first year of work. And you think about how much those first few years were so seminal for all of us as we learned, you know,

how to be successful in life. And we really think that that's had an impact. And as Dave said, we're in this divided moment and people want to do something. This is about people, not politics in a moment that is very tough. And I think it's the belief that Dave and I have, you can invest in one person and you can change the world

because that one person can have that outsized of an impact. And that's the stories that we tell in the book. The impression I got from the book is that as you were interviewing all these very, again, people we all know, anyone listening to this podcast will know virtually every person you write about. That once you got them talking, they were like,

this was a topic they're happy to talk about, right? Like, because they get to talk about the people that they never, who they feel a great debt of gratitude to, but they never get a chance to honor, actually, in any kind of public way. It's true. And in many cases, it's never before told stories. And they wanted to tell them to honor those people, but they wanted to really say, this is an example of, you know, what you can do to help find the next Condi Rice.

I mean, Condi is an amazing example, Dan. You and I worked with her. There's a couple of stories she tells she's never told before, where, you know, I'll tell you the two very quickly. I mean, one was she was at the University of Denver and thought she was going to be a classical pianist, went to a conference and realized a lot of the 12-year-olds were already better than her. She had to very quickly figure out something else to do. She was gonna be a city planner and she realized that was way too boring. And this professor, she took a class on foreign relations. We don't want to insult your listeners that are city planners. Yes, not that there's

anything, I don't mean that rudely. But Condi's passions were different. And she took a class with this professor, Joseph Korbel, a refugee from Czechoslovakia. And he said, you are that smart, this should be your career. You should do a PhD in national security and be a professor. It is what led her to the career that she had, having never had the confidence or remote background.

And Madeleine Albright once told me, cause guess what, that was her dad. Professor Corbell was Madeleine Albright's father. She told me once that before he passed, he said I had two daughters that were secretaries of state. Wow. You think about the impact that that one man had. And then she tells another story

that I was involved in actually. She and I were obviously at the White House on 9-11. The whole world changed that day. I was honored to not only serve President Bush at that time but then went with her to the State Department. And we would travel all over. I remember so clearly, this is one of the most searing memories of my mind and had such impact on me. We were in a capital in the Middle East in one of the grand palaces sitting with a leader and he starts out the conversation by saying, I hope you didn't come to preach to me, Madam Secretary, about democracy.

And I got so tense and I thought, first of all, he can't deal with the first black female secretary of state. That's obvious. And the second was, oh boy, what's Condi gonna say? She's pretty fierce. And she looked at him and she said, you know, your highness, how could I come preach to you when my own country treated me as three fifths of a man? And yet our country is so much stronger than yours

because on our imperfect journey, we have learned to recognize the voices of our people to respect human rights. And that's why we'll always be more successful. In just one fell swoop with humility and strength, she took him down. And Dan, the one thing I just say on this is, it's just what you said,

when people got into the stories that would just flow and there was so much gratitude and For your listeners one of the things that a number of people said I remember Christine Lagarde almost teared up But she said, you know This person changed my life and I you know, I don't think she ever knew it I don't think she ever knew how important she was to me. So one of the takeaways is think about who believed in you and make sure you say thank you. Beyond that, who's gonna say that about you?

And what are you doing to sort of pay it forward? And the connections in the book, like you start asking these questions, these crazy dots start to connect. But here was a crazy one that I don't think many people know, but Sati Nadella was, grew up in India, played cricket. There was a cricket coach, captain of the cricket team that took a real interest in him.

And we wasn't a great, you know, early on a great cricket player. And this young man helped him, but he joined Microsoft and he joined Sun Microsystems and Microsoft. It was sort of a mid-level guy at Microsoft. And his new boss, they, Microsoft acquired a company, his new boss really took an interest in him, helped him grow and really saw the promise in him, met his parents, went to India with him at Microsoft and he was on the rise and this gentleman left

Microsoft, his name was Doug Burgum. Right. So Doug Burgum, who was governor of North Dakota and is now secretary of the interior. So he was running a software company, his software company, Microsoft acquires it. And Sacha Nadella, as you're saying, gets effectively layered by Doug Burgum. And Doug Burgum winds up traveling all over the world

with Sacha, including to India. And he meets the barons. Who, by the way, are Marxist. Right. You know, like the story just goes on and Doug left. But when they were thinking about who to select as the next CEO of Microsoft, when Steve Ballmer stepped down, there were a number of calls made around.

And one of the people that was not in the most likely circle but was under some consideration was Satya. When Steve Ballmer reached out to Doug Burgum, Doug Burgum said, this is your guy. This is your guy. You've got to do it. And I think by most measures, he's arguably the most successful CEO in the country

and Microsoft has been on a tear. And here you have this incredibly humble leader. And it's just one more word about him because the stories are so nuanced. He would point to his wife as one of his great mentors because they had a severely disabled child, their first child Satya talks about this in his book so I don't feel like and it's in our book and Satya just struggled with it.

Why me? Why did this happen? Why did this happen to our family? Why me? And his wife took him aside and gave him some coaching and said what about him? How do we make his life great? And he said it just turned everything on its head where he was much more needing to focus on his son and how to help his son have as good a life as possible.

He says, I realized it wasn't about me. And that later as a CEO, it really profoundly made me put myself in other people's shoes and have an empathy that I don't think I otherwise would have had. I will tell you the experience of reading this book, what I've found myself doing, which I did not intend to do,

is I sat there writing down all the people I would describe as my mentors and who made key decisions or gave me key pieces of advice or modeled for me things that I have since carried on. And by the way, one person in particular, who when I was at the Carlisle Group in 2002, after 2001, 2002, after I graduated business school, it was after 9-11, and it looked increasingly likely

the US was gonna be at war with Iraq, and I, as you know, Dina, you were involved, I was getting recruited to join the Bush administration, and I remember talking to some of my colleagues at Carlisle, and every single one of them was like, are you crazy? You're gonna leave Carlisle, you've got this, you're perfectly set up in private equity, you've got a long career ahead of you,

like you're crazy to leave, you're gonna join the government, what are you thinking? And there was one person, a senior person there, I won't say his name, who said, nobody here is gonna think it's a good idea for you to go, for your own career, they're all gonna think it's a terrible idea. He says, and you should absolutely do it.

He's like, you don't get that many opportunities to serve your country, and you should do it. And that person, sadly, who I kept in touch with, gave me the best advice, and I did it. He was the only person there who gave me that advice. He sadly passed away. And so I keep in touch with his son, and every couple years I wind up getting together

with his son, if he's listening to this, he'll know. I'm referring to him, because my only way to honor the old man who gave me this piece of advice. But it's just very powerful once you go through that process. And it's very fulfilling, which is you guys get to in the book, it's very fulfilling to mentor. But that said, we have a lot of young people who listen to this podcast. We have a lot of college students. I am often approached, as I'm sure, I know you guys are,

I'm often approached by college students who listen to this podcast, who want guidance either in their career or want guidance in how they should be engaged in the world from a policy and political activism perspective. And I'm often struck by the range of approaches that people take when they approach someone like me or people like you,

because it's all over the place and there's no real playbook, maybe this is the playbook, there's no real playbook on how to actually cultivate mentors. So in a nutshell, Dina, what would you say to young people listening to this podcast who are seeking out advice and possibly mentors

in terms of how to approach them, how to engage them, how to develop a relationship that's not so burdensome on the mentor that it makes it like almost impossible from a practical perspective. Well, the book talks about that. And I'll let Dave kind of talk about the four elements that really are central to a mentoring relationship. But we actually did a survey, the first of its kind,

1200 young people that the Yale School of Management and Morning Consult did, and we learned so much from that. But one of the most interesting things we learned is that people don't want quote transactional mentoring, they want transformational mentoring. So it isn't just about get me the job or nominate me for this thing or that, that's all important. But it's someone that really cares enough about you

to give you tough feedback, to give you constructive tough love, which is gold, by the way. I think young people don't realize the greatest gift you can have is a mentor that you can be vulnerable with who can really give you the tough love. And the key for you is to actually know what it is you're trying to get out of that relationship.

Like the worst thing you can do is call Dan Seenor and say, Dan, I want to be like you someday. Can you mentor me? No, it's Dan. I want to understand how maybe I can work both in government and the private sector. What kind of internship should I have? Are there any people you would suggest I meet? If you're a realistic mentee and effective with those people's time, it will be transformative

for you. If you're like, Dan, can I have a three-hour lunch? It's not going to happen. And then that person can more easily stick with you. I have so many people that have worked for me in the past or that are mentees of mine. They know if you text me and say, I need your advice, here are the three options I have.

I will respond. And I am so excited to do it. Now, obviously those are deeper relationships I started, but I worry that this generation doesn't know how to be what we call an effective mentee. I'll end with saying one important thing that came out of the survey. Men and women want different things.

Men want access to power and influence with a mentor, no problem. Women who have less mentors because they're scared to ask for them want authenticity, and they want to feel like that person is really going to be connected to them. And finally, male-dom like finance, frankly, if you're a woman in a male dominated industry, guess what?

You need a male mentor because they see the perspective of everyone else sitting in the room that you don't see. One of those for me was Lloyd Blainfein, the CEO of Goldman, who was my boss for 10 years. He's one of my dearest friends. I used to say to him, oh, that's pretty rough what you just said to me, but you know what, you're a good mentor.

And he would say, or should we say tour mentor? Because he told me stuff I didn't want to hear. And I'm telling you, Dan, there's no way that I would have improved in that pretty tough environment without that kind of mentoring. Yeah, just one more word on that, Dan. Despite the difference between men and women, and by the way, if you're a man having a woman mentor, which I did, Ann Coralogo, so you may remember her, was a great,

great person. It was a cabinet secretary during the Reagan administration. Yeah, under Reagan. She was Reagan, Secretary of Labor, I think. Exactly. An amazing woman who has since passed. But across the board, there were four things that we learned which are critical to great, successful mentoring relationships, and by the way, mentoring relationships are very satisfying on both sides. It's not just for the mentees, both, but the first

is a trusting relationship, because you gotta be vulnerable, you gotta be honest with people, you gotta believe that there's something here that you can be a real self with. The second thing is it's just values. So the difference between transactional and transformational is you're talking about not just the next job on the promotion ladder, but who you want to be, the kind of life you want to lead,

the kind of values you want to guide you. The third is mutual commitment. As Dina said, it doesn't mean you got to sit down for two hour lunches. It does mean that if you're gonna be with somebody as a mentor or a mentee, it's gotta be a commitment to engage, particularly when the person you're mentoring needs you,

because the challenges and opportunities don't come on us in a certain timeline. And the final thing is you've gotta have someone who can help give you confidence. Because one of the things that I think we all know that those of us who have been around a while, that failure is inevitable, risks are inevitable, and you've got to have someone who can help you

take on those challenges, take on those risks, and overcome the inevitable failures. And Dean and I both in the book talk about our failures, and many of the people we interviewed, these wildly successful people, you never have heard about their failures before, the mentors were most instrumental in helping them deal with failure

or deal with their weaknesses. We don't talk enough about failure, Dan. I mean, and a little bit of it is we live in a bit of a cancel culture, like, oh my God, I failed, I'm never gonna be able to. The truth is you never grow from success You only grow from failure you only get that next job because the thing that stung so bad in the moment is Really what helped you became a better leader and probably got that next promotion for young people today

Social media is part of this, but it's not only social media. There's such a like career life professional life death sentence There's such a like career life professional life death sentence consequence to what otherwise we growing up would think is normal setbacks And then it's setbacks that you can overcome and part of life is overcoming setbacks a disappointment And I just think I worry about that with the young people today just that as stakes seem so high Guys before we wrap up we have a lot of fans in the call me back community as you can imagine for Dave for your colleague in the Senate senator back community, as you can imagine, for Dave, for your colleague in the Senate, Senator John Fetterman, given that one of the focuses he's made his time

in the Senate, which is Israel, especially post October 7th. And I recently interviewed him, as you know, and I asked him about a piece that was written, that Selena Zito had written for the Washington Post, about your relationship with him, and she interviewed you both in his home outside of Pittsburgh in Braddock. And in a sense, it's kind of sad and almost tragic

that it's such a big deal that you have two senators from two different parties from the same state who actually, dare I say, like each other and can work closely together. And I just want to play you a clip of this exchange. And just before we wrap, I just want you to respond to it. I just want to before we wrap, there was this piece that Selena Zito did in the Washington Post about the work

that you and Senator McCormick, Dave McCormick, as you know, we've discussed it as a close friend of mine. He and you sitting in your home in Braddock working together. I got so much feedback about this piece, people saying how surprising it is to see two senators from different parties not only working together, but actually becoming friends. Were you surprised by that reaction?

Initially, you know, immediately after I said, look, undeniably, I miss my friend, but I look forward to making a new one. Right, you miss meeting Senator Casey, but you look forward to working with him in his role. And of course, I was happy to welcome him into my home and have like an ongoing dialogue. Because we both won wins in Pennsylvania, we agree on some policies, undeniably. But honestly, if I'm being honest, I was concerned when that, when I knew that was going to drop,

that it's like, he's talking to Republicans, he's getting along with the Republican. I'm not stupid. I know what's selling right now. But it is not leadership to yell and say provocative things on social media. That doesn't solve anything. And if your goal is to change for a different outcome in the election, well, you've tried that shit and it never worked.

Pennsylvania decided we want one Democrat and we want a Republican and you need to work together. I don't know why that's controversial. To know what's selling right now, I refuse to just be a part of that kind of noise or whatever that is. Dave? Well, you know, we've had a number of meetings.

Dina and I had a dinner with Senator Federman and his wife, Giselle, which was which was great. And we agree on a number of things and we disagree on many things. We're going to focus on what we agree on to serve all Pennsylvanians. And there's only three states in the country that have senators that from different parties, Republican and Democrat. And I feel fortunate that I've got a Senator in Senator Fetterman that I think I'm gonna be able to work with.

And the best thing I can say about him, and I mean it as a real compliment, I think he's completely authentic. I think what you see is what you get. You know, when we disagree, we'll do so agreeably and we'll disagree a lot. And when we agree, we'll work together, we'll take whatever heat comes our way

to get things done for Pennsylvania. And that's what we both got elected to do. I do agree with you about the authenticity. Post these messages on X, I noticed the ones that are about Israel and Hamas, and they're pretty provocative in a good way. And I asked him about that and he said, oh yeah, I just banged them out myself.

It's just like right from his mind, right to the keyboard. Like there's no, it's not like staff doing it, it doesn't go through any clearance process, it's like what you see is what you get. All right, Dina and Dave, thank you for doing this. We will post who believed in you in the show notes and encourage folks to order it, and order it for a young person you know.

That would be my unsolicited advice advice is not just get yourself a copy but get it for a young person who's navigating this incredibly complex world thank you guys thanks Dan that's our show for today if you or your organization are interested in sponsoring call me back we'd love to hear from you. You can reach us at callmebackatarkmedia.org. That's callmebackatarkmedia.org. If you found this episode valuable, please share it with others who you think may appreciate it.

Time and again, we've seen that our listeners are the ones driving the growth of the Call Me Back community, so thank you. To offer comments, suggestions, sign up for updates, or explore past episodes, visit our website ARKmedia.org. That's A-R-K media dot org, where you can also find transcripts with hyperlinked resources, which will hopefully help you deepen your own understanding of the topics we cover. Call Me Back is produced and edited by Alain Benatar. Additional editing by Martin Huérgaux. Archimedia's executive editor is Yardena Schwartz.

Research by Gabe Silverstein. Our music was composed by Yuval Semmo. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Sinor.