Call Me Back - with Dan Senor - Emergency Episode: ISRAEL AT WAR WITH IRAN - With Ronen Bergman

Episode Date: June 13, 2025

Watch Call me Back on YouTube: youtube.com/@CallMeBackPodcastSubscribe to Ark Media’s new podcast ‘What’s Your Number?’: lnk.to/DZulpYFor sponsorship inquiries, please contact: [e-mail] contact us, sign up for updates, and access transcripts, visit: arkmedia.org/Ark Media on Instagram: instagram.com/arkmediaorgDan on X: x.com/dansenorDan on Instagram: instagram.com/dansenorToday’s episode:Around 3AM in Israel, a nation-wide siren awoke Israelis to the news that the Israeli Air Force was conducting extensive strikes on the Islamic Republic of Iran. As far as we know so far, the strikes have targeted nuclear enrichment sites, military sites, the IRGC leadership, including Hussein Salammi, the head of the IRGC, the Army Chief of Staff, and leading nuclear scientists. Shortly after the blitz began, the IDF Home Front Command announced immediate changes to its guidelines, prohibiting all gatherings for educational, social, and workplace purposes. Israelis have been instructed to remain near bomb shelters as they await the Iranian response. It is an extremely tense moment for Israelis and Jews around the world. For years we’ve discussed the danger of Iran inching closer and closer to a nuclear weapon. The IDF said in a statement that in recent months it had accumulated evidence that Iran’s nuclear program was “approaching the point of no return.” Joining us to unpack the ongoing events that are reshaping the Middle East in real time is Ronen Bergman. Ronen is a staff writer for The New York Times and Senior Correspondent for Military and Intelligence Affairs at Yedhiot Ahronot. Ronen is the recipient of a Pulitzer price for his reporting on the Israel-Hamas war. CREDITS:ILAN BENATAR - Producer & EditorMARTIN HUERGO - Sound EditorMARIANGELES BURGOS - Additional EditingMAYA RACKOFF - Operations DirectorGABE SILVERSTEIN - ResearchYUVAL SEMO - Music Composer

You are listening to an art media podcast. The Iranians believe it was ground teams of Mossad that were on site or not far away from the site that launched them. It drove the Iranians crazy. I think, I don't know, but I think that we saw so many targets hit at the same time with such precision that I would assume that we will soon see reports about quadcopters. We saw what launchers and drones can do in the recent Ukraine attack on Russia. The Russians were helpless and I think the Iranians tonight felt the same. It's 1230 a.m. on Friday, June 13th here in New York City.

It is 730 a.m. on Friday, June 13th in Israel as Israelis start their day, but they're not really starting their day because most of them have been up much of the night. We are just about three hours after a nationwide siren awoke Israelis to the news that the Israeli Air Force has been conducting extensive strikes on the Islamic Republic of Iran. As far as we know, at this point, the strikes have targeted nuclear enrichment sites, including the Natanz nuclear facility military sites the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps leadership including Hussain Salami

the head of the IRGC and The army chief of staff as well as leading Iranian nuclear scientists This blow comes just two days before US Special Envoy to the Middle East Steve Witkoff was scheduled to meet with Iran's foreign minister in what looked like a final attempt to resolve the Iran nuclear crisis diplomatically. US Secretary of State Marco Rubio has said that the US had no involvement in the planning of the attack but there are contradicting reports about whether or not the US was collaborating with

Israel to deceive the IRGC in the weeks leading up to this attack. And in an interview with Bret Baer Fox News earlier tonight, President Trump said, quote, that the US will defend itself and Israel if Iran retaliates. Shortly after the blitz began, the IDF Home Front Command announced immediate changes to its guidelines prohibiting all gatherings for educational, social and workplace purposes. Israelis have been instructed to remain near bomb shelters as they await the Iranian response. It's an extremely tense moment for Israelis and for Jews around the world. For years, we've discussed the danger of Iran inching closer and closer to a nuclear weapon.

The IDF said in a statement that in recent months it had accumulated evidence that Iran's nuclear program was, and I quote, approaching the point of no return. Joining us to unpack the ongoing events that are reshaping the Middle East in real time is Ronan Bergman. Ronan is a staff writer for the New York Times and senior correspondent for military and intelligence affairs at Yediut Aharonot. He is the recipient of a Pulitzer Prize for his reporting on the Israel-Hamas war. Ronan, welcome back to the show and thank you for joining us at this late hour or early hour. Thanks for being here. Happy to be here. Ronen, welcome back to the show and thank you for joining us at this late hour or early hour. Thanks for being here.

Happy to be here. So, Ronen, let's begin with what we know as of now. Again, just after midnight here in New York City about the attack that took place in Iran tonight. What actually happened? What was taken out and who was taken out? Before the attack took place, there were numerous signs signs not interpreted right by the Iranians But probably we'll talk about this later

But everybody talked about what Israel will do can do to the Iranian nuclear project This was everybody were talking about that can Israel do the same damage like a joint Israeli US strike Etc etc because throughout the, it was the nuclear project that was seen as the main threat. And therefore, if Israel wants to attack Iran, it was sort of like natural given that it will attack the nuclear sites and only the nuclear sites. Now Israel preferred to do something slightly different and attack and still attacking and will attack in the next few days a much bigger variety of targets.

And because that variety included a list of top ranking Iranian officials, among them the Chief of Staff, the Deputy Chief of Staff, the head of the National Security Council, the head of the Revolutionary Guard Air Force, the head of the Revolutionary Guard and top nuclear scientists and these people did not see the time as dire, did not see a need to go to a safe house and Israel wanted to take them by surprise in their homes that basically dictate the first round to be taking out these individuals in their homes. Because if you do it in a reverse sequence, you do something else, then of course, these people will know they will go into some kind of an emergency status

and go to headquarters to go to a safe house or go to a bunker. So it wasn't just that they hit the people, the personnel before they hit any particular sites or infrastructure, it was that they hit the people, the personnel, before they hit any particular sites or infrastructure. It was that they hit the personnel in the places that the personnel would least expect it. Yes, and at the time that they least expect it. If it was, let's say, the nuclear facility in the towns that was first, or the air defenses, an indication to something else will happen afterwards, then naturally these people will get a call, even if not fearing for their lives, they will go to headquarters. So it was that first round, together with some of the air defenses, as we know. And after that, started to take out

different targets throughout Iran. And these different targets include storages for ballistic missiles, laboratories like the one in Prachin. This is a place where Iran used to hide some of the most important experiments into developing high explosives that are a needed component in the manufacture of a warhead, the famous sites in Natanz and Fudu, and taking out the remaining air defenses guarding Iran, just to remind our viewers and listeners that in October Israel already took out the sensitive, most capable strategic anti-aircraft batteries, taking them out allowed Israel to get much closer to the needed sites. This will basically strip Iran naked from any kind of air defense.

We are talking about few waves of attacks deepened through the night. We still need to see what are the results, especially on the more fortified bunkers where the centrifuges, the storages for the enriched uranium. But as far as IDF sources, intelligence sources claim, those who I spoke with, they believe that the targets of tonight were achieved quite successfully and that it opens up an option for the continuation of the strike in the next days. And can you tell us a little bit about the attack forces that were deployed and their

methods to the extent that you know how they were deployed? The Iranians believe, I don't think that they are absolutely wrong, that in many of the covert actions that were taken against different parts of the nuclear project like factories producing the centrifuges. These sites, these factories, these laboratories in many of the cases were hit by quadcopters carrying relatively small amount of explosives but enough to destroy a building and a quadcopter by nature has very limited range so they could not be launched from Israel and the Iranians believe it was ground teams of Mossad that were on site or not far away

from the site or maybe in the worst case in the neighboring country that launched them and it drove the Iranians crazy. I think, I don't know but I think that we saw so many targets hit at the same time with such precision that I would assume that we will soon see reports about quadcopters. What's a quadcopter? It's a small drone with four propellers that is capable of carrying, relative to its size, significant amount of explosive, but still it's not one-ton JDAMP and it can be launched secretly from a car From a ship from an airplane with very low signature on radars

Especially if it comes from the ground and it is his in a truck or in a car This they need to have a nearby deployment But once deployed once launched there's very little the Iranians can do to stop them because they are very hard to detect. And the range is very, very short. So it's like if it's being launched from the next neighborhood and then the team that launched it just leaves the site and cannot be found.

These are very hard to, to, to locate. We saw what launchers and drones can do in the recent Ukraine attack on Russia, right? The Russians were helpless and I think the Iranians tonight felt the same Was Tehran and some of these other parts of Iran crawling with Mossad operatives and other types of commandos I mean was there was there a lot of on-the-ground penetration either tonight or that had been in Iran for some time the radians believe it from the numerous attacks that they suffered from in the recent six, seven years.

They believe that indeed there is a Mossad agent under every bed and above or around every corner. To an extent, the answer is yes, but of course at the end of the day, you need an airplane or you need a quadcopter with a team that would actually deliver the bomb and destroy the facility or kill this individual. Ronen, could you give us a sense of what was actually hit? I mean, there was senior level personnel, so leaders of the regime were hit in terms

of infrastructure, military infrastructure, nuclear infrastructure, and where there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of reporting about an operation against the nuclear infrastructure in Natanz, but there's nothing, I'm not hearing much about Fordow, so I just think we're trying to understand what so far has been hit that we know of. Yeah, so I think we are talking about 10 to 15 individuals that were targeted, most of them in Tehran, at least six cities among them, Tabriz, Isfahan, Kashan, Iraq, Ahwaz, and Tehran, and facilities, part of them for storage of missiles, air defenses, and nuclear sites, Natanz and Parchin. There's still unclarity about the famous, used to be secret facility inside the mountain near Fodou, which is considered to be the most fortified and hard to access enrichment site.

And I have some more reporting about two factories that are producing centrifuges and one other factory that is producing what they call the planetaric mixers that are massive, massive mixers for the production of solid fuel and explosive. You cannot make ballistic missile without mixers. It crippled the ability of Iran to produce ballistic missiles. Any sense for Israeli resources that were deployed? For instance, back in the October of 24, I was given some estimates that something along

the lines of like a third of the Israeli Air Force was deployed for that operation. Any sense for the scale of what was involved here? I believe that this is much higher much bigger We're talking about much of the Israeli Air Force taking off One of the reasons by the way is to make sure that there is the the airfields are empty fearing Iranian retaliation, but we're talking about numerous quadrons of Fighting jets together with quadcopters,

together with long range drones. Much of that fleet needs either aerial or ground fueling in other areas of the Middle East, on the way to Tehran, to Iran on the way back. So you need fueling tankers, you need intelligence vehicles or intelligence jets, and command and control jets. I would assume that we are talking about many many thousands of

soldiers and intelligence operating back in Israel monitoring, helping, communicating, commanding the operation from a far away, keeping a close tap on what is happening in Iran every minute. So that specific IRGC leader is in the room where Israel is planning to target and to have everything synchronized, to have so many people being monitored because Israel is aiming to kill them. It takes a lot of manpower and for days, much of the IDF has been dealing with nothing but gearing up towards the attack While many of the soldiers and the officers Not sure until the last moment the decision that the decision will indeed be taken and the strike will be launched

Was there anything that you from your understanding that Israel was trying to take out at least in the waves Tonight that they weren't able to achieve? First of all there is one target that is or could be potentially very very important on the target list that as far as I know was not chosen. The supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei as far as I understand he was not targeted. I think it's a matter of decision to go for decapitation of much of the Iranian leadership, but leave the leader in his place. And maybe as a signal or as a symbolic message to say to him, listen, we could take you out as well. We left you alive. You should not continue to any kind of retaliation because you could be next.

Are we aware of any IDF casualties so far? I don't think that there were. Based on your reporting, how did Iran respond? Before we get into what we think Iran's response will be, just how did they respond over the last few hours? What were they doing? The anti-aircraft defenses of Iran were on high alert for a long time. They have tried to fire.

They were ready to extend. But the S-300 has a range of something like 700 kilometers. Israel developed secret weapons that can take them out from 1,500 kilometers. So nothing that the Iranians could match. Now without having the S-300, enabling them to take out the remaining few dozens of batteries of tactical air defenses. And while Israel is conducting the operation, given that as you said that Israel started by taking out key personnel in the command structure and the command hierarchy of the Iranian military, of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, of other parts of the Iranian security apparatus.

Did that completely disrupt? Because this is comparable to when Israel took out Nasrallah and Hezbollah and Hezbollah leadershipers first take out the decision makers so that they didn't know what to do because Israel had taken out the leadership. Was that the same idea here? The same idea was to really destabilize the whole Quranic control system and leave the organization in the Hezbollah case or the country or the regime in the Iran case in total

disarray. But there's something more that I think makes the perfect comparison between the two cases in a way similar to what happened to Israel on October 7 where Israel believed that they know the enemy better than the enemy knows itself. Look at what happened in the world in the 24 hours prior to the Israeli strike. I think that there were very few people in the Middle East and Europe and the US who didn't know, didn't suspect that Israel is going to strike. But the Iranians kept on publishing statements saying, we know what the Israelis and Trump are doing.

They are just flexing muscles in order to put pressure on the negotiations towards the negotiation on Sunday. And so Israel took them by surprise and took advantage of the fact that they don't see a need to go to an emergency status. And what are the expectations for Iran's response now? I think that is like unanimous assessment. We should be expecting hard days for Israeli citizens everywhere in Israel. Iran has a fleet, remaining fleet of ballistic missiles.

So the bottom line, Iran is expected to retaliate. The question is how, for how long, and will it lead Iran to explode the negotiation, leave the negotiation, not coming to discuss a possible solution with the US on Sunday because identifying the US and Israel in Kohut behind this attack or understanding that not negotiating could lead to even more catastrophic results which could potentially threaten the sole existence of the regime. I think many of us believed it was probably just a matter of time before Israel would target Iran's nuclear program. But what's clear from tonight is that Israel has been much more ambitious than strictly

targeting Iran's nuclear program. It has targeted parts of, not the entirety of, but so far from what we understand, parts of the Iranian regime. Now maybe that is in service of taking out the nuclear program. But there's also the possibility of the regime just crumbling. I mean, I think what we learned from from December of 2024, from the fall of the Assad regime in Syria, a regime that had been in power for 53 years, and then it meets a little bit of resistance. And in a matter of 13 days the

regime crumbles in a way that it couldn't crumble after like 13 plus years of civil war and then in 13 days there's this revolt there's this uprising and the regime this regime that been around for over half a century falls and we were all sitting there saying wait a minute this regime was far more wobbly than we expected. So if the Iranian people who are frustrated with this regime ever thought there was a moment where this regime looks weak, I would think it would be now. I believe this is the weakest moment in Iranian modern history. So since the revolution and the establishment of the Islamic Republic, it's weaker and seen

weaker more than in the toughest days of the Iran-Iraq war. There were tough days there. There were people in Israeli intelligence that for a long time, how to destabilize the regime and take it down. I assume that these people are looking at the moment, if not directly involved in the planning, and thinking what else Israel can do to accelerate pressure. I would assume Israel is also aiming to suggest or convince the US to take a part here, not just standing aside and helping Israel in case it needs defense, but having a crucial

part in finishing this task. I think this could be another goal for Israel now, is to convince the US to take a much more decisive role, use the robust American military capabilities that Israel doesn't have. For example, the B-2 bombers potentially launched from Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean. These can carry few of the mob, the mother of all bombs, that is like 11 tons of explosive or bunker busters that can be dropped and destroy even the most fortified, the most deep Iranian sites.

This is something Israel cannot do. They don't have the bombs and they don't have the bombers to carry it. And I could see Israel now after something that is at least for now looking as a great success militarily and intelligence-wise, operationally, I could see Israel potentially lobbying with the US, trying to convince the US to enter. Ronan, what should we expect in the days ahead in terms of will Israel continue with further waves of attacks for, you know, I've heard estimates of like another week of this? Yeah, a week is more or less what was planned before the attack started, four days to a week.

But there are two sides here. It depends also on Iran. While we speak, there's news coming about 100 drones that were fired, that were launched from Iran, so suicide drones. They're on their way. Takes hours for a drone, a slow vehicle, to get to Israel, but they're on their way. I assume this is just the beginning and Israel also has targets, more targets to hit in Iran. I think we are looking at a week that is going to be a tough, very tough week for the people of Israel.

Last question, roughly speaking, how many years in the making was an operation like we witnessed tonight? It started in 2008. First they wanted to take out Natanz. Roughly speaking, how many years in the making was an operation like we witnessed tonight? It started in 2008. First they wanted to take out Natanz. Then they discovered Fordo. Then they did the massive cyber operation, Stuxnet, Olympic Games, that delayed the process there. So we are talking about two decades of collection of intelligence, translation of that intelligence into an actual, and all

of that reaching a peak in the last, let's say, three years when the penetration, the intelligence penetration into Iranian ranks was, I would say, not less extensive than the one against Hezbollah. We saw what were the achievements, what excessive against his Bala the ability to monitor Iranian officials in real time Israeli intelligence in the previous two attacks in April and October of last year when the Iranians attacked Israel Israeli intelligence knew what will be launched and what? really intelligence knew what will be launched and what precisely what hour. And then during the last year,

the Air Force started to make more and more drills. And one of the things that alerted the Iranians, but yet not alerted them enough because they still didn't believe, were massive drills of hundreds of Israeli airplanes taking off, flying into the sea, doing all sorts of drills during aerial fueling, et cetera, and coming back.

Now, this is not a demonstration. This is not in order to go and visit someone's yacht. This is, it's clear, there's only one thing they can rehearse, which is striking Iran. But in spite of all that, and Iran sees this, like nobody, you cannot miss it. Iran saw it There was alertness in Iran. There were even some suggestions in Israeli intelligence that Iran might strike first

which led to the Total total evacuation of many many military sites in Israel in the last 24 hours But yet luckily for Israel the Iranians didn't get it. They thought there's no way that Israel would launch the attack. All right, Ronan, I'm sure we'll be speaking to you again in the next, uh, you know, in the weeks ahead, thank you for doing this at this, uh, at least odd hour for me and you know, keep in touch. We'll do. Thank you then.

That's our show for today. If you found this episode valuable, please share it with others who might appreciate it. Time and again, we've found that our listeners are the ones driving the growth of the Call Me Back community, so thank you. And to offer comments, suggestions, sign up for updates, or explore past episodes, please visit our website, ARKmedia.org, that's A-R-K media dot org, where you can deepen your understanding of the topics we cover. Call Me Back is produced and edited by Alain Benatar.

Sound and video editing by Martin Huérgaux and Mary Angeles Burgos. Our director of operations is Maya Rakoff. Research by Gabe Silverstein. Our music was composed by Yuval Semo. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Sinor.