Call Me Back - with Dan Senor - Is Israeli Society Descending into Madness? - with Ari Shavit

Episode Date: April 24, 2025

Watch Call me Back on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@CallMeBackPodcastStreaming Notice:THE CHILDREN OF OCTOBER 7 — a new documentary film — reminds us all that Jewish children were slaughtered or taken hostage or made to watch the slaughtering of their parents in a systematic way not only in 1943, but in 2023. There’s a reason why antisemitism is called “the oldest hatred.” It’s also the most persistent. This is a difficult film to watch, but we are thankful to Montana Tucker and Eytan Schwartz for making it, and to Shari Redstone for finding it a home. That home is Paramount Plus. To watch the film, go to: https://www.paramountplus.com/movies/video/C3COr43yl99oKdjeWNsuo2Ma2OP4zvGv/To watch the trailer: https://youtu.be/LMC0Vef3V98?Upcoming Event Notice: Dan Senor will be delivering this year’s State of World Jewry Address at the 92nd Street Y (92NY) on Tuesday May 13 at 7:30 pm. To register: https://www.92ny.org/event/the-state-of-world-jewry-addressArk Media on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/arkmediaorgTo contact us, sign up for updates, and access transcripts, visit: https://arkmedia.org/Dan on X: https://x.com/dansenorDan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dansenorToday’s Conversation: On Tuesday, ​Shin Bet chief Ronen Bar submitted a newsmaking affidavit to Israel’s Supreme Court, claiming he was dismissed by Prime Minister Netanyahu for refusing to carry out politically motivated orders. Bar also provided a 31-page affidavit to the court which is classified. Prime Minister Netanyhau has responded in the press to Bar’s charges and has until Thursday to submit his own affidavit to the high court.In this episode, we discuss a number of the charges, explanations, and counter-charges. But the stakes here go well beyond politics. To understand the forces shaping this highly divisive debate, we are joined by journalist and author Ari Shavit, whose work has long examined the fault lines of Israeli society—most recently in his book, The Third Temple. {insert link}CREDITS:ILAN BENATAR - Producer & EditorMARTIN HUERGO - Sound EditorYARDENA SCHWARTZ - Executive Editor, Ark MediaGABE SILVERSTEIN - ResearchYUVAL SEMO - Music Composer

The country is spiraling out of control. And now think of it, we don't have a constitution, we don't have the tradition, and we are at war. And in my mind, it's an existential war. Think of how crazy it is that a month before we thought we may be attacking Iran and taking the most dramatic action in our history since 1948, we got bogged down into this internal crisis.

That shows you a country that lost its way. It's 4 p.m. on Wednesday, April 23rd here in New York City. It's 4pm on Wednesday, April 23rd here in New York City. It's 11pm in Israel as Israelis prepare for Yom HaShoah, Holocaust Remembrance Day. By the time you listen to this podcast, Israelis will have already stood for two minutes in silence as an air raid siren blasts across the country and it seems at least for Israelis the world stops. Every year Yom HaShoah is excruciating but following October 7th, 2023 all the more so for all the obvious reasons.

This is the second Yom HaShoah in which Israelis are still being held captive in Gaza by Hamas. I was reflecting on all of this last night as I participated in a screening of the documentary film, The Children of October 7th, which reminds us all that Jewish children were slaughtered or taken hostage or made to watch the slaughtering of their parents in a systematic way, not only in 1943, but in 2023. There's a reason why anti-Semitism is called the oldest hatred. This is a difficult film to watch, but I'm thankful to Montana Tucker and Etan Schwartz

and their team for making it, and to Sherry Redstone for finding it a home. That home is Paramount+. It is streaming now on Paramount+, and we'll post a link to the film in the show notes, and strongly encourage you to watch it. Now onto today's conversation. On Tuesday of this week,

Shin Bet-Chief Ronenbar submitted a newsmaking, to say the least, affidavit to Israel's Supreme Court claiming he was dismissed by Prime Minister Netanyahu for refusing to carry out politically motivated orders. Barr also provided a 31-page affidavit to the court which is classified. But among the claims from the affidavit that was unclassified, Netanyahu told Barr that in the event of a disagreement between the Prime Minister and the Supreme Court, the Shin Bet should follow the Prime Minister's orders, not the High Court's. Barr also alleges Netanyahu pressured him to use the agency's surveillance tools on anti-government protesters and to sign legal opinions shielding Netanyahu from testifying in his corruption trial.

Prime Minister Netanyahu has responded in the press to Barr's charges and has until Thursday to submit his own affidavit to the high court. We will discuss Barr's charges and Netanyahu and the government's response and counter charges but the important thing for the purposes of today's conversation is the stakes here go well beyond politics and go well beyond the Netanyahu bar skirmish. To understand the forces shaping this highly divisive debate, I'm joined by journalist and author Ari Shavit, whose work has long examined the fault lines of Israeli society, most recently in his book called The Third Temple.

Ari Shavit on Is Israeli Society Descending into Madness? This is Call Me Back. And I'm pleased to welcome to this podcast for the first time, Ari Shavit joins us from Tel Aviv. Hi Ari. Hello. Pleasure and honor to be with you. Ari, there's a lot I want to get into today, but obviously I want to start with the news that is driving the conversation in Israel, and then we're going to zoom out and try to understand. There's like what's going on. And then there's what's really going on.

So let's just start with the what's going on before we get to what's really going on, Ronan Bar, the head the what's going on before we get to what's really going on. Ronan Barr, the head of the Shin Bet, Israel's domestic security agency, has filed an affidavit, filed a document with the court accusing the prime minister of a number of things. If you could just summarize the basics for us, what is Ronan Barr accusing Prime Minister Netanyahu of?

I'll take a step back and I'll say, Act number one, Netanyahu fires the head of the Shin Bet two months before he's planning to attack Iran, according to the New York Times. Act two, the head of the Shin Bet refuses to be fired. Act three, it goes to the Supreme Court and we have the most chaotic, crazy day in the Supreme Court.

Act four comes the epitaph that you talked about. The main three charges, as I see it, one, Netanyahu asked him to follow, to gather information on leaders, activists of the protest movement. Two, Netanyahu tried to force him to sign a paper that will not permit him to give his testimony, evidence in his own trial. And number three, he actually demanded of him to be loyal, should there be a constitutional crisis, to be loyal to him and not to the Supreme Court.

Again, there are several other issues, but these are the three core claims and the more dramatic claims of Ronen Barr in his statement. Okay, I want to get to Netanyahu's response, the government's response to Barr's charges, but before I do, from the perspective of a veteran journalist that you are, what in Barr's affidavit jumped out at you is either particularly damning or revealing or illustrative of the bigger picture concerns that you've been so focused on? As far as I'm concerned, the most troubling one is using the Shin Bet in order to follow,

to gather information on political activists. And if I may, I'll try to give you an American metaphor. The immediate clash that we see is between the nightmare that Netanyahu is becoming Richard Nixon and what he asked the head of the Shin Bet to do is Watergate in even a larger scale because using the government intelligence apparatus, a Secret Service, to do Watergate kind of activity against his opponents. The fear on the other side is that Ronan Barr is J. Edgar Hoover. That actually you have a secret service that is becoming too powerful, that in a way, if

you wish, Edgar Hoover activated. That it's actually rebelling, in a sense, against an elected government. So before you ask me about my own opinions, if you want to be fair and to describe why this is so dramatic and why this is so important, it's because this is not talk, this is not rhetorics, this is a profound constitutional and institutional crisis where seriously half the people, if not more, fear that Netanyahu is Nixon at the very least and half the people, roughly speaking, fear that Ronen Bar is becoming Jared Gerhuber in a very dangerous way.

So there's disproportionate attention to the charges in Bar's affidavit. I mean, obviously they're worthy of attention, but I'm struck how little coverage there is of this other half, roughly speaking, as you said, of Israeli society, the Israeli electorate, whatever you want to characterize it, that think there's something deeper going on. You've laid out the three or four things that are in Barr's affidavit that are most damning or troubling. Then the government's response, and when I say the government, I don't really mean political

actors, but I mean this other part of Israeli society. How do they respond? Why do they believe what Barr is doing is so irresponsible and unreasonable? Like, I just, there's a tendency, I just want to say there's a tendency over here, and I think probably among many in the media in Israel, to just say, oh, this is just politics, and this is just Netanyahu fighting for his political survival, and that's what this fight with Barr is about. I have found this on other issues too, the same thing during the judicial reform in 2023. There's something much deeper going on.

And so can you explain the people who are, who use the J. Edgar Hoover characterization of Barr, what are they more concerned about? What are the deeper issues they're concerned about? You know, if it was not so horrible, and if it wasn't our beloved nation in danger, it's a kind of fascinating, amazing political science laboratory. So let me use now another metaphor and then I'll answer to you what the Netanyahu people

feel. The next metaphor that I want to use is not so familiar to your American audience, but quite familiar. The clash in Israel is between the liberal Israel that is really afraid that Netanyahu is aradwan and he's turning Israel into a new Turkey where he destroys the judiciary, takes over the military, takes over the police, takes over the secret service, and turns it into a dictatorship de facto, even if there are elections. The great fear on the Israeli right is that Israel is old Turkey being controlled by judges

and generals who don't respect the people, who are trying to create an enlightened regime, but actually without having what is so basic for every American which is the people have spoken. This is the profound clash in Israel in the last few years. Again, one step back. It all goes back to 1977 when the Likud took over in 1977 headed by Begin. Just for our listeners that was really a political earthquake when Begin won in 1977 because by Begin. Just for our listeners, that was really a political earthquake when Begin won in 1977 because from Israel's founding in 48 through 77, Israel had been governed by one party, by this center-left to socialist secular Ashkenazi elite and a huge swath of the Israeli population felt completely

unrepresented and disconnected from this elite, and it was just assumed that this elite would have a monopoly on Israeli politics indefinitely. And then Begin comes in, hard-right, ideological, deeply religious, wears his religion on his sleeve, wears his nationalism on his sleeve, speaks in deeply religious language that was uncommon for Israeli political leaders up at that point. It was a shock to the system in 1977. It's transforming Israel from its Israeli identity to its Jewish identity in a sense, okay? But Begin was a liberal, so what happened here, he never took over all the centers of power of the

country, and he actually respected the judiciary, the civil service, all these elites and all these institutions. So not only did we have checks and balances, but we had checks and balances more than ever before. So there was a kind of division of power for most of the last 30, 40 years where the right wins most of the time the elections. In the last 50 years, I think Likud is in power like 40 years. Okay, so this is important. So Begin wins in 77 and then other than short period.

Years of Rabin, Nehud, Barak, it's short periods. Basically, it's a Likud country. People vote Likud basically. While the central left maintained power in the judiciary, in the civil service, in the media, and in the military. Not to dwell on this, but I think it's important, because I was just reading something actually about Begin taking power, and him in 77, and him knowing that the Shin Bet over the previous decades, while he was in the opposition, had effectively been spying on him or some of his supporters in service of whatever Labor Prime Minister was in power at the time, these leaders in the security establishment offered their resignation when Begin came to power and he said, no, I'm keeping you in power. So there was

this moment where he could have really shaken things up and he didn't. Look, Israel is past continuous. The's the past never ends, okay? All these things are very relevant. Okay, so let's go back there. So what happens, Begin proves to be real liberal, and actually during his time, not only because of him, because suddenly there was a balance. The right had the Knesset, and the left had so much other centers of power.

And this is how it worked. There was a kind of division of power in a sense, and no one planned. At a certain point, I think Trump had an influence here. The Israeli right is fed up and is not willing to accept this. And they say, we vote right, we get left. The real power stays with these secular Ashkenazis in Tel Aviv who still run the country. This is before there was even talk, you know, I think in America so much about the deep state. That was a growing sentiment in the new populist Israeli right. That led to the 2022 elections and to the Netanyahu extreme right government with the Aliv Levin, Smotlich and Benglia. What happened then is the right said, we are not having it anymore.

We are taking control of everything. And at that moment, what they didn't realize, they woke up the liberals and the liberals went out to the street feeling that there is an existential threat to their Israel. So what we've seen since November 2022 and definitely since January 2023 is a kind of real conceptual civil war, where basically, one, it's between the more Jewish identity and the more democratic identity, but it's also about what is democracy. And this resonates with Americans and some other people in the world,

because basically the new right, contrary to Begin, the new Netanyahu, contrary to the old Netanyahu, is a kind of Trump or ban kind of attitude and basically said the people vote, it's the majority, we want power, all the power, we won't be stopped. The people on the other side said, you guys, we lived with your rule for decades, but now you're going to destroy and lighten this road. You're going to take us to the dark ages.

And therefore everybody feels they are endangered. Everybody, both sides feel that there are victims, both sides feel endangered and then the Ronen Baal crisis brings it to the climax because now you're not arguing about some decision of the Supreme Court. You are talking about the strongest, decision of the Supreme Court, you are talking about the strongest powerful organization in Israel. If I may describe it to you, if Ronen Ba was here, he would tell you, Dan, Netanyahu is out of his mind. This is what he would say. The Shin Bet is extremely powerful, much more powerful than the FBI because of the conflict. It's enormous. If Netanyahu will put some un-normative guy at

the head of the Shin Bet, it's the end of Israeli democracy. So, Ronen Ba feels that it's a real existential threat for Israel democracy and he feels that if he leaves, Israel will be gone. Netanyahu, if he was sitting here, he would say, dear Dan, you are an American, you understand democracy. These guys in this shtetl, they never understood democracy. They don't understand what's respecting the people and respecting an elected government. And I've been having all this trouble 30, 40 years. The media haunts me. The judiciary sends me to a ridiculous trial. The military doesn't listen to me, I'm fed up, I want to rule.

Now, when you have such a clash between such two powerful individuals with two powerful organizations, you're in real trouble. Specifically answering your question, people will claim one, some of the allegations are false, two, they will claim the Shin Bet used to be invo... Even if something is wrong,

the Shin Bet say during the disengagement in 2005. So 2005 Israel withdraws from Gaza and Ariel Sharon is prime minister at the time. Israel's pulling settlements, thousands of Israeli families, Israeli citizens pulling them out of Gaza. Very tense time for not only those who are citizens of Israel that are living in Gaza, but many other Israeli citizens around the country on the right who are opposed to Israel withdrawing from Gaza. And there was deep divide in the country. I mean we talked about protests today on Kaplan Street. There were massive, massive

protests against the Israeli government policy. And as you just said, Ariel Sharon instructed the Shin Bet. policy and as you just said Ariel Sharon instructed the Shin Bet it wasn't just that he instructed the IDF to go to door-to-door in Gaza to pull Israelis out of their homes which was actually you know the Knesset voted for disengagement so there was a Democratic political act but he also is what you're saying which is I think forces that are sympathetic to this government are arguing right now Sharon activated the Shin Bet to conduct surveillance on protesters living in Israel who are opposed to disengagement. I guess what Netanyahu or people sympathetic to the government would argue is this is a very selective accounting of the Shin Bet being used for political reasons.

So I'll tell you to summarize what you said and what I said. Look, I'm a passionate centrist. My ideological biography is moving from the moderate Zionist left to an extreme Zionist center. That's my passion. We have an expression in Hebrew, milchama labait, we fight for our home. So when we fight the Hamas for our home, when we fight for the Iranians, it's one thing. But now there are two Israels, each one fighting for its home, and then you have a house divided. Look, I try to be hopeful, but I find myself

reading more and more about America in 1850s. I hope it won't get there, but you understand how these things happen because it's a house divided in the most profound way and you don't see leadership neither here nor there that takes responsibility to prevent what is like an emerging dramatic crisis, not to say catastrophic. While the liberals in Israel have every reason to be concerned because they are faced with a very aggressive attitude from the extreme right, there is a kind of end justifies the means attitude and people don't look at things at the

perspective so they don't think what actually Rabin actually did as prime minister and Ariel Sharon did as a prime minister all prime ministers I assume all leaders have very intimate and complicated relationships with the heads of Secret Services what happens now when there is a divorce suddenly you know all the dirty laundries out there, and you hear about things that probably some of them happened during the tenure of other prime ministers as well, and they were never discussed. So this is the kind of whirlpool of extremism and almost lunacy that we are caught in that is so dangerous.

So Ari, in a sense, I think what you're saying is there's always been this complicated relationship between the prime minister and the head of Shin Bet, between the elected government and the domestic security agency. And this is not the first time the Shin Bet has, let's just say, colored outside the lines in terms of how it's used,

because it's always a judgment call. What is actually a request of the domestic security agency that is in service of a prime minister's political needs and what is actually in service of the country's policy and security objectives? In the case of Sharon in 2005, he could plausibly argue, look, the Knesset has voted. We are pulling out of Gaza. This is the policy and there are people who are trying to disrupt our policy and they pose a threat to our country and our government because they are standing in the way of the implementation of Our policy which we've determined this is you know the flip side to that by the way some on the right will argue

Well, the government may have voted but you can still have protesters who oppose the policy and why is the Shin Bet spying? They would argue, on these protesters? I want to refer to something, two points that I think are very important. One, what you see here is an old Israeli malaise that intensified, which is, not only don't we have a constitution,

we don't have enough of a political tradition, and when everybody feels that the end justifies the means, you break the rules the means, you break the rules and after you break the rules so many times, the rules are broken. So I'll give you an example. Rabin, Osler one, was totally legitimate because he had a majority. Osler two, there was a very slim majority. It was a problematic disengagement.

There was a majority in the people, but Sharon broke the rules as well. The settlers broke the rules when they created the settlement. So for years, we've been forcing each other and not respecting the rules. But now it came to a climax. Why did it come to a climax? And here, if I may, I'll share my own opinion

after trying to be objective. I think there is a genuine justified view that we lost sadly the old Nathaniel who was a Republican American and we got a new Nathaniel who's a French monarch. Nathaniel believes Leta Emua, the state in me, and this is a very dangerous state of mark This is a good idea you have in America of having two terms for presidents and you are flirting with the idea of changing that Keep it because there is no resemblance between the Netanyahu the last few years and then Netanyahu of ten years ago 20 years ago. Okay, so there is a kind of feeling

that Netanyahu himself, there is a justified fear. I'm not saying it justifies every action. There is a justified fear that democracy is in danger because there is a very powerful leader who doesn't respect the rules and institutions. And because we don't have a constitution and our institutions are weak, there's a real danger to this Aradwan. I don't think Netanyahu wants to be Aradwan, but there can be a kind of Aradwan-like process.

So one of, although I have criticism of the hypocrisy of some people who when the right-wing government does something, it's triffe, but when our guys did it, that was kosher. But today, there is a good reason to be worried about the extremists in government and about a kind of state of mind of Netanyahu, of the end of keeping me in power. Basically, Netanyahu feels he's so greater than Israel. No, he should have been president of the United States. Why he's stuck with this little shtetl. Why is that?

You know, God was unloving and this is a dangerous state of mind, okay? And that creates a kind of suspicion among decent people. Look, I think that Onenba is making some mistakes. I have no doubts he's a decent guy. He's not only a great warrior, he's a good guy. He's not a dark guy. He's not only a great warrior, he's a good guy. He's not a dark J. Edgar Hoover, but the dynamics lead even decent people to take problematic actions. And this is

kind of the Greek tragedy is that it is now endangering the Israeli entity. I want to get to the Greek tragedy in a moment, but before I do, just staying on this for a moment, I spoke to someone yesterday who's in the Charedi, the ultra-orthodox community in Israel, and he said to me, one of Ronan Barr's charges is that Netanyahu was asking Barr, the head of Shin Bet, to conduct surveillance on various leaders of the protest movement, and that was clearly a political act that Bar was being asked to operate in service of. And this person in the Charedi community said to me, do you realize there are whole teams, in fact an actual division within the Shin Bet, that is monitoring the ultra-orthodox community? Now I think

he was being loose with his character. I think they monitor many in the settlement movement but whatever. And he said, this person said, say what you want about the I think he was being loose with his character. I think they monitor many in the settlement movement, but whatever. And he said, this person said, say what you want about the protest movement, because I was pushing him pretty hard. I was like, and he said, say what you want about the protest movement

since Netanyahu has been back in power. But some elements of the protest movement have gotten out of control. And the incitement has gotten out of control. And there was an attack on Netanyahu's home, his weekend home in Kaysaria in November of 24, I think, and there were flares fired and it was dangerous. And this was like the protest movement.

And he said, is that, look at some of the worst things we've done and our certain people and our certain extremists in our movement, he said, obviously the worst was assassinating the prime minister. But he said, had these protesters been successful that attacked Netanyahu's home, they would have incinerated his home. And so, now I don't wanna start getting into a debate here

and equivalence, but his point was, there are elements within the protest movement against Netanyahu, however legitimate the criticisms are against Netanyahu, however legitimate the grounds for the protests are. There are some, not all, that are getting out of control, and those merit monitoring by our domestic security intelligence.

Generally speaking, you have this extremely powerful organization generally run by good people who did not use their power in the last 40 years. They used, under, in the socialist time it was used in a horrible way. In the 50s and 60s I'm a Ben-Gurion admirer but what Ben-Gurion did with the Shabak I don't want to remember. Okay, so the Shabak of the 50s and 60s was very problematic. Since Eshkol became prime minister and Begin became prime minister for 40-50 years I think there's good reason to be proud of that organization, because, again, it has so much power, and on a large scale, it did not abuse its power. Perhaps things happen here and there. So I think that the kind, again, ironically, there are elements in the right who, rather than be conservative, became anarchists. So they are

against all institutions now. So they are against the military, against this, the world is crazy and everything is upside down. So I say relax guys. On the one hand, I want the Chieng Bet under control. I want an elected government to rule, but I don't think there is a reason at this point to think that the Chieng Bet did outrageous, crazy things. And I understand the concern Ronen Barr has that if he will be replaced by someone unworthy, then we can be in a very dangerous spot. And that has to do with the fact that not only do we have to solve this crisis, but we need institutional solutions for all these problems. The constitutional issue, there's too much TNT under the Israeli political structure. And it's really explosive and really dangerous.

And ignoring it, and here I say to my, our friends in the Jewish diaspora in America and elsewhere, you too have to be involved not only with a Palestinian issue, whether you are right or left, these issues of maintaining the Jewish democratic state as a healthy living body is a mission for all of us and the Jewish democratic state is now facing a serious internal threat. I want to come back to that but before we do because I think it's an

important point you're making even though I disagree slightly but we will get into it. I want to talk, Ari, about there's some confusion. We hear the term a lot that Israel's headed for a constitutional crisis. And I often remind people when they throw that term around, you know Israel doesn't have a constitution. I'm not so sure how you have a constitutional crisis

without a constitution. And so even this crisis we're watching right now between Barr and Netanyahu that's playing out in the Supreme Court Those were sympathetic to the government are basically saying look we have the Supreme Court which is unelected We have a government that's elected if there is actually a crisis Where the two bodies disagree your job the head of the decision bet is to be responsive to the body That's elected as opposed to a bunch of these unelected judges. So it's a crazy situation but in absence of a Constitution this is like the Balagan.

This is the mess. It's complicated enough when you do have a Constitution as we're learning right now in the United States but then you throw into the mix when you don't have a Constitution. So if I may, again we're getting into deep waters here. That's OK. We can handle it. The historic problem is the following. The liberals, headed at the time by Judge Aaron Barak, especially, said Israel doesn't have a constitution.

It doesn't have democratic traditions. We'll step in and we'll make a very powerful supreme liberal Supreme Court that will give the country the constitution it doesn't have basically and the norms and we if you wish will maintain a civil society where we'll take care of the politics is so muddy and crazy and vulgar will be the mandarins who will maintain this on the one hand they gave us liberties they did the amazing. On the one hand, they gave us liberties. They did an amazing job. On the other hand, there is a fundamental legitimacy problem here,

which leads to the crisis. And for decades, the right accepted it, the different right, the ultra-orthodox right, the national right. Now they don't, and this is why we have to fix this problem. I was there watching this process because I was very supported of the court, of the liberal court. But I was aware 20, 25 years ago that they are taking steps that will backfire. And now it backfires in a big way.

In some ways, we have to find, if not a constitution, but we need to agree on the rules of the game. We need to look for the common ground because the country is spiraling out of control. And now think of it that again, you have your own problems in America, but think of it that we don't have a constitution, we don't have the tradition and we are at war. And in my mind, it's an existential war. Think of how crazy it is that a month before we thought we may be attacking Iran and taking the most romantic action

in our history since 1948, we got bogged down into this internal crisis. That shows you a country that lost its way. I love Israel so much. I'm a passionate patriot and a passionate Zionist. There is so much wisdom here. Wherever you go, you wrote about at least two books. There's so much genius, talent, everything.

What Ben-Gurion understand, Ben-Gurion said, the Jews are the most talented people in the world, but they have two problems. One, anti-Semitism. They hate us. They want to kill us. We have to be strong. Two, we are self-destructive. We have a gene in us or a bug or something that led to the destruction of the first temple and the second temple and did not enable us to fight the Nazis together in the Warsaw Ghetto. There is something in us that leads to extremism

that becomes destructiveness. So what he did is to create a very powerful state. Okay, that was his solution. We call it Mamlachtiyut, republicanism. And the moment that collapsed, we don't have a new structure that holds us together. And I think, again, trying to be an optimist and being an optimist, I think we should take this crisis, the war and the internal crisis, and we need to move quickly into establishing

new kind of Israeli republicanism that brings us together. Where is my hope? I think there is a silent, vast majority in Israel that is reasonable, sane, moderate, doesn't want this extremism. We've been taken hostage by extremists, while the vast majority of Israelis are reasonable center-right people. And this is the mission. We are facing this immediate crisis, but that's a mission for our future. OK, so sorry, I want to talk about your most recent book,

The Third Temple, that gets into what you're talking about right now, that the state is at risk of collapsing under its own internal contradictions. I mean, I guess you sort of did it there without saying it was your book, but is there anything, I just want, for listeners who haven't read the book, can you just lay out the outline? In recent years, I published three books

that were not translated to English yet. The more comprehensive one is Third Temple, published in 2021, anticipating the war, by the way. Both you and I are kind of amateur historians of Israel, among other things. When you think of Israel of the 1950s, it's the most, I have tears in my eyes. I mean, what the Israelis did in the first decade, no other nation did. I say to Americans, imagine America absorbing 500 million immigrants in three and a half or four years.

I mean, you have some issues with seven or 10. While building a system, a court, a Knesset, five universities, 20 hospitals, 300 villages, 30 towns. I mean, what they did here in the first decade was superhuman. I'm not a religious or mystical guy, but it's mind-boggling. And it was that Mamlukhtiyut that enabled it.

It was that republicanism that enabled it. What was the problem? It was too secular, too socialist, too oppressive, and too Ashkenazi. So the people did not find their place under this regime that was so successful in many ways. And that led to what should have happened in 1977, Maapach, when Begin came to power.

The problem was that we never created the Israel 2.0 Okay, what happened in the last 40 years that each one of the Israeli tribes or communities? Had a kind of rebellion against that old regime each one You know the ultra-orthodox the Arabs the nationalists the liberals the Russian speaking each one Wanted its place under the Sun to use a famous book by Netanyahu, but all these processes went too far and no one reorganized the system. So in a sense, you know, I'm very worried about Iran. I've been worried about Iran for 20 years, but I say even more than I'm troubled by the Iranian centrifuges, I'm

worried even more about the Israeli centrifuge. Because we created a system that the centrifugal forces are so strong and there is no center, not in the center of a centrist part, there is no center holding us. So what I claimed in my book, first of all I described process, again, trying to be fair to all tribes. I try to understand the narrative of each one of the tribes of Israel, not being judgmental. I try to understand what was the pain, what was the process, what was the change, and then basically I said, we need the new Mamlukhtiyut, we need a new republicanism,

which will not be so Ashkenazi, not so secular, not so oppressive, and definitely not socialist. So we need to create a kind of strong center that respects the different minorities, the different communities, creates, enables what you have in America, which is a kind of hyphenated identity that you can be an Israeli Haredi, an Arab Haredi, a liberal Haredi. You have to bring the country together because if I'll say something about the books you and I wrote, it took you and your partner to see the greatness of Israel because Israelis

are so cynical they didn't see what you saw, which is this amazing startup nation and the genius of Israel. We have to take that into politics, because what we've neglected in the last decades, the economy was so great, high tech was so amazing, we didn't deal with the fundamental political problems. I say about the Netanyahu era, that Netanyahu talked about economical strength

that creates military strength, that creates political strength, what he called the Iron Triangle. But I said, we are Jews, we need the Magandavid. And what Netanyahu missed is an effective state, not a big state, but an effective state, like Singapore, a united society and the Neshama. We need Neshama.

Okay, Neshama, soul, soulfulness. We need an ethos that will hold us together. Again, I'm not talking whether Centennial is for others. This is what happened in the last 20 years. That's what led to October 7th. We were so successful. I mean, it's not only the economy is so great and the NASDAQ and the startups. It's not only that. We make more babies than any other OECD country. And that's... Saul and I did a whole chapter on the baby boom in Israel. And right now, US policymakers in the United States, the Trump administration, they're literally, as we're sitting here recording this,

there are deliberations in the administration about how to promote policies in the United States to encourage people to have more babies. And in Israel, they don't need policies. It's the most impressive indicator. It's such a difficult place, a challenging place. And you know, it's not only, it used to be Arabs and ultra-orthodox.

Now it's, you know, the gay community in Tel Aviv has a gazillion kids. So it's such a powerful statement, the energy. And then one of the distinctions I make in my book is between real Israel and political Israel. Real Israel is miraculous because we created a meeting of East and West of tradition and modernity, if an individualism and family values of community.

It's the warmth and wisdom of life here. But political Israel did exactly the opposite. They took even minor differences, turned them into grand canyons, and they make political capital of this division. So the challenge, and I wrote about it back in 2021, I believe it much more now, we must take this terrible crisis and problem and bring all this energy of real Israel to transform political Israel, because we cannot just be an economic success. We have to transform our politics and unite our society.

I understand the big picture you're painting here. I do wonder, because I read the Israeli press right now, and it seems like it's hyperventilating, histrionic. The country's at the breaking point politically, not societally, to your point, but politically it's at the breaking point. But political breakingally to your point, but politically it's the breaking point. But political breaking points can lead to a break in society. So I don't wanna underestimate the,

or I don't wanna sound Pollyanna-ish about the risk. And it seems that you right now are screwing from the hilltops, saying we're at the breaking point, we're at the breaking point. And you mentioned our book, The Genius of Israel. Saul and I have a chapter in that book where we go through almost every decade

since Israel's founding. And if there was Channel 12 nightly news and Haaretz, and I mean there was Haaretz, and let's say TikTok, and you know, every, and all, you know, social media and hot takes and everyone chronicling everything that was happening in real time, you could have said, whether it was the debate over whether or not Israel should accept reparations from Germany in the 1950s, and the insane protests, you had massive turnout proportionate

to Israel's population at the time, as big if not bigger than the protests happening today. And even worse actually, because you had a mini, close to January 6th style event where Begin, who was in the opposition at the time, calls on the protesters to storm the Knesset, storm the Knesset to prevent the vote that would prevent the vote that would allow Israel to accept reparations. That's in the 1950s. We can go to the Lebanon War in the early 80s where Israeli soldiers were fighting and

then coming back on weekends and joining protests huge numbers these Amazing protests in terms of size that ultimately resulted in one of the anti-war protesters anti-government protesters getting killed by pro-government activists we mentioned 2005 the Gaza withdrawal how much it divided the country I mean honestly almost feels like almost every decade we were at one of these breaking points and is the difference now That we're watching it all play out and it's so visual and so we think oh my gosh Israel's never been there before when in reality Israel has been there So here perhaps we have a bit of the again. I share your attitude in the sense, you know, I'm a believer again

I'm not a religious Jew, but I'm a total Jew. I'm an intense Jew, and I would say I'm almost a fanatical Zionist. But because I admire so much the Zionist movement, the genius of the fathers and mothers of Zionism, that they were always aware that catastrophe is around the corner, but it didn't make them desperate or bitter or sour.

It drove them to be exceptionally good. We did wonders not because we say it'll be okay, yeah besedo, we said it may be a catastrophe. We are not French, we are not Swedes. If we created such a miracle against all odds, we have to work day and night to maintain it. And we don't have the luxury of being mediocre. We are really, there is American exceptionalism, there is Israeli exceptionalism.

We are an exceptional nation with an exceptional challenges and exceptional, unique challenges. We must bring unique solutions. What troubles me so much, we were never in such a low point is where our leadership is. And I'm not talking about Justin Netanyahu as everybody. The people in government, the ministers, now we are losing a lot of the civil service. We didn't have anything. We had amazing leadership, amazing leadership on right and left. And today the political crisis is worse than it. Now, bottom line, I'm not into despair. I'm into exactly that Zionist approach. Let's understand. I think the coming year is really a

make and break year. Because on the one hand, we had the war expose our weaknesses, our flaws. Two, the war created a horrible trauma, which we didn't overcome yet. Three, the war created an amazing opportunity because we woke up to see the reality around us, and there is amazing positive energy among the people. But we cannot sit at our couches and say it'll be okay, it'll take care of itself. There is a need for dramatic change. So I encourage every Jew, every Israeli, every lover of Israel to understand that the next year, the elections of 2026 are the most dramatic since 48. We will need a fresh beginning.

And if you ask me what it should be, I think we need the country to be led by a Zionist Alliance. I say Zionists unite. Mark said workers unite. I say Zionists unite. Let's get over our differences, right, center, moderate, left. Let's get over these because we must create a strong Zionist Alliance that will lead a new government that will create, build that center I'm talking about and begin the process of rebuilding the country. I think that because of the talent here and the potential,

if you just fix the politics, if you have a political restart, the energy that will come out of Israel will be amazing. The sky's the limit. But we cannot sit at home and say, it'll be okay. We have to be active, proactive, and lead with our own hands. I mean, that's the Zionist ethos.

We have to take our destiny into our own hands and restart Israel. You said something earlier, you alluded to it now, you said something earlier about the diaspora has a role here. I'm somewhere between not sure I agree with you to strenuously oppose what you're saying. So I will lay out my reaction to the diaspora getting drawn into your Balagun after you lay out why they should be drawn into your Balagun. Look, I think we should have known it before, but we were attacked here in the most vicious

way ever on October 7th, and you were attacked on October 8th. People didn't die and were not raped, thank God, but you saw that the old ancient beast of anti-Semitism is there. And at the moment where we were the ultimate victims, before we did anything, before one bomb was dropped on Gaza, they, the vicious forces hating us, came out hating all of us.

So the old slogan of we are one is relevant. Now I'm not saying there are differences. We are not one. We are somewhere between brothers and sisters to cousins. I think brothers and sisters. But the Jewish diaspora will not have a future without a strong Israel that is a kind of lighthouse that generates the energy of Jewish life that young Jews in the diaspora can identify with. And we will not have a life if we don't have a strong diaspora supporting us in many ways. So I think I adamantly oppose Jewish isolationism.

Now it's true that you don't have a vote in the Knesset, your sons and daughters are not endangering their lives the way most of our sons and daughters are endangered theirs. So it should be done in a wise way. I want Jews throughout the world to feel Israel is at the very least their second home. I think Jews should have rights here. And definitely I think it's my role as an Israeli to fight, to bring about a government that will care about every Jew in the world, whether it's reform, conservative, orthodox, or ultra-orthodox. I couldn't care. This is the home of the Jewish people. And our terrible politics in the last decades has

led to a process where Israel is not doing enough. I'm being very gentle to face its commitment to all the Jewish people. So I think, yes, so first of all, this is the ideological claim. Practically, we won't have enough forces. Again, because insanity is everywhere now, if you want this kind of sane, responsible, center-right Zionist alliance to emerge, you need the partnership with the Zionists and the committed Jews throughout the world. Otherwise, we'll be crushed, both here and in the Diaspora,

by the extreme forces that are smaller, but are very effective. My concern with this approach, while at a very abstract level, I think sounds reasonable, is for a number of decades, there have been political actors inside Israel who have tried to draw in the diaspora, and often it comes in the form of trying to leverage

the diaspora to pressure the US government to put pressure on Israel. This is... I know, no, but this has been, come on. I was never there and I totally... No, I would think we need actually a body, some sort of, you know, upper house, perhaps under the president or something like that,

that will have some sort of Jewish diaspora representation. Your voice must be heard here. It's not equal in the elections and in decision-making. You won't have half the seats in the cabinet. But I think we have to find to make sure that the needs and the values and the concerns of the Jewish diaspora are seriously represented here. Not just as a kind of mission coming for a visit

for three days in the Hilton in Tel Aviv or some meetings in Jerusalem. No, I want to institutionalize the commitment of the Jewish state, the Jewish democratic state to the Jewish people and the presence of the Jewish people and its interests and its values in Israel, within the state, sadly, look, there are many wonderful Israelis. There aren't enough Sabras, Israeli-born Israelis, who care enough about the diaspora and understand the concerns of the diaspora. We must deal with that.

I mean, one of the lessons of the five, six lessons of October 7th is that we are lonely in the world. We had the best time of Jewish history for eight years. five, six lessons of October 7th, is that we are lonely in the world. We had the best time of Jewish history for 80 years. I say you created the perfect diaspora. We created Jewish sovereignty. This golden era is challenged. Both are challenged.

And in order to deal with the challenges of Jewish life in the 21st century, we must build our relationship and really work like brothers and sisters to guarantee the Jewish future of our children and grandchildren. Ari, I got to tell you, I don't think I've ever done this, but I'm going to end this conversation by inviting you to come back on because where I want to wrap is actually an invitation to a future conversation, which is that I'm not that worried about Israel. I'm much more worried about the diaspora.

I can visualize the rebuilding, the call for rebuilding, the rebuilding moment, the rebuilding ethos on a range of fronts for Israel after October 7th. But there's also a rebuilding of the diaspora. And there are some cracks that were exposed, major cracks. And it's not just antisemitism, although antisemitism, the rise of antisemitism is probably the most visceral and alarming aspect of the post-October 7th world for Jews outside of Israel. But there's some really big cracks that speak to the health, the lack of health, depending on how you look at it, of Jewish life outside of Israel.

And I think there's a lot we need to work on. And part of it is, I take your point, part of it is maybe in partnership with Israel or learning from what has worked in Israel. But I don't think the sole focus of the diaspora can or should be, we just got to fix Israel. Even though fixing Israel has to be a priority. And by the way, fixing our own, you know, addressing the cracks in the diaspora will actually ultimately help Israel. A strong diaspora is important to Israel. But I think Israel has problems? No question. But there are really big problems over here too. I'm aware of them. Personally, I'm like committed to the cause. I think it's so important. The last pages of my book, The Third Temple, I say Israel must be a lighthouse nation.

It has to be first of all for the Jewish people. We need it for us, that's us. We need a mission in this world. We cannot be just about being. So we need a mission for us, we need a mission for you, and I think we should have a role for humanity. I mean, the beauty of the Zionist movement, we came to solve our own existential problem, but we

wanted to contribute and lead humanity in some ways for a better future. And I think it should be done and it can be done. Ari, we will leave it there. Like I said, wrapping this conversation with an invitation to a future conversation. Thanks for doing this. Thank you very much. If you found this episode valuable, please share it with others who you think may appreciate it. Time and again, we've seen that our listeners are the ones driving the growth of the CallMeBack

community, so thank you. To offer comments, suggestions, sign up for updates, or explore past episodes, visit our website, ARKmedia.org. That's A-R-K-media.org, where you can also find transcripts with hyperlinked resources which will hopefully help you deepen your own understanding of the topics we cover. Call Me Back is produced and edited by Alain Benatar. Additional editing by Martin Huérgaux. Archimedia's executive editor is Yardena Schwartz.

Research by Gabe Silverstein. Our music was composed by Yuval Semo. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Sinor.