Call Me Back - with Dan Senor - Naftali Bennett - Who Are You?

Episode Date: June 4, 2021

We thank the 92nd Street Y for hosting us then, and for this podcast episode now. You can subscribe to the 92Y podcast here:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/92y-talks/id905112228

70% of Israelis agree on 70% of the issues. Yet we have a unique talent to focus on the 30% and argue ourselves. We can argue for hours, days and decades. And that's what we've been doing. So we've had some chronic problems growing and we rather argue about the Palestinians instead of solving the problems. So we agreed to disagree on those 30% and continue disagreeing. But now let's focus on the 70%.

Welcome to Post-Corona, where we try to understand COVID-19's lasting impact on the economy, culture, and geopolitics. I'm Dan Senor. Today we're doing a special conversation tied to the news. Politics in Israel is moving fast. It's not necessarily about the coronavirus, but it's important in our geopolitics. We'll be doing more of these special conversations in the weeks ahead, but more about that project later. As for today, Israel may be on the cusp of forming a new coalition government comprised of seven parties from across the ideological spectrum, from Naftali Bennett's Yamina party and the New Hope party on the right, through Yair Lapid's party in the center, and then the Labor and Merits parties on the left. And thenid's party in the center, and then the labor and merits parties

on the left. And then there's the Arab Muslim party, Ra'am. Think about that. An Arab party is indispensable to a new Israeli government coming to power. So much for Israel being an apartheid state, and so much for the notion that politics in Israel has become so polarized that there's not a strong political center. Then again, in the days ahead, this coalition may fall apart because it's dependent on a razor-thin majority. It's still too early to count out Prime Minister Netanyahu. But if it comes together, the man who would serve as Prime Minister for the next two years, according to the agreement, is Naftali Bennett. There are a lot of questions swirling around right now about who he is, as he's relatively new to the international scene. Well, I sat down with

Minister Bennett a few years ago when he was the Minister of Economy, but that conversation is surprisingly relevant today. The discussion gives us a window into Naftali's worldview on a range of issues that are still front and center now. It was recorded while he was serving alongside Yair Lapid in a Netanyahu-led government. We spoke at the 92nd Street Y before a live audience. We thank the 92nd Street Y for hosting us then and for this podcast episode now. So in our conversation, Naftali and I had a number of topics. He talked about a service in the army's most elite commando unit, Sayeret Maktal, the same unit that both Bibi and Yoni Netanyahu served in, his experience running his high-tech startup in New York City when he was

called up to fight in the 2006 Lebanon war, his views on the Haredi, the ultra-Orthodox community in Israel, and how to integrate them into the modern economy and into the army. He shared his observations on the role of Jewish-Arab relations inside Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian track, including timely insights about Gaza and Hamas. And finally, his governing partnership with Yair Lapid, which began almost a decade ago, despite very different worldviews. They referred to themselves as Achim, which in Hebrew means brothers. Minister Bennett, it's a pleasure to have you here. I know you're in the midst of consultations or have been with the administration, with Congress, and you just came from Washington, D.C.

You told me a few minutes ago, ask me anything. Yeah. And I should feel free. Don't go soft on me, which I will respect that request, that wish. But before I do, I want to talk a little bit about you. And we heard about your career just a little bit now in the introduction, about your rise to political power in Israel, your chairmanship of Haba'i Teyud, your role in the inner security cabinet of the government. I want to go back and hear from you about the sort of two worlds you've lived in in Israel.

Because we just heard you've lived in this high-tech world before you reached political prominence. You lived in this high-tech world. You founded and helped lead a company called Soyoto, which was one of the leading anti-fraud companies dealing with anti-fraud technologies in Israel. You sold it for $140, $150 million. In 2005, 2006, you are in Sayyed Matkal,

one of the most elite special operations units in the IDF. And July 2006, you are getting ready to leave your company that you have just sold for a lot of money. You are a very successful entrepreneur, and the second Lebanon war begins. And you are, it really is, it's Israel. It's a sort of tale of two cities. Talk a little bit about that. Well, first of all, thanks for being here and thank all of you for coming. It's a Sunday. So yeah, I grew up in Israel, had a regular childhood in Haifa and served in this unit as a platoon commander, a company commander. Founded this company, actually moved to New York City for four years to run the headquarters here.

And incidentally, probably most of you are using, as we speak, my software, because whenever you log on to Chase.com or Citibank.com or BankofAmerica.com, Sayoda checks that you are you and not someone who stole your password and is logging in instead of you. Seven out of 10 North American online banking transactions go through this Israeli company. So startup nation, right? in transactions go through this Israeli company. Startup nation, right? We sold the company, and that's the point where I ought to have been in the Caribbean with a cocktail in one of those little umbrellas. We call it the exit. The same day that I left the company, the second Lebanon war started, and I was called in to command a group,

a search and destroy mission of missile launchers from Lebanon into Israel. Now, I had fought in many conflicts and wars before. This was different. First of all, I was a dad. It was the first time I had a kid. Yoni was one years old and my wife Gilat was pregnant with my second daughter, now called Michali. It's a whole different ballgame when you go fight and you leave children behind. But beyond that, something more profound happened to me during

the war. So I grew up in the 80s and I had a childhood just like all of you watching the same you know TV shows, eating the same fast food and we never thought that there's some existential threat in Israel. The 80s was a period where we took Israel for granted and suddenly I'm deep in Lebanon and these people, Hezbollah, are shooting missiles into Israel and I couldn't stop thinking, what do they want? What do these folks, what do they want? Do they have any territorial claim? Do they want a northern city? And I realized... And this was after Israel had withdrawn from southern Lebanon. Israel had withdrawn from the very last inch of Southern Lebanon. No soldiers in Lebanon.

Lebanon is for the Lebanese. Yet they started shooting missiles at us. And it dawned on me, what now seems pretty trivial, that they don't want us here. They just don't want us here. Whatever we do, how much we're nice or they don't want us here. When I left, when I finished the army, the war came back, I changed my path. I had planned to build another big company, sort of an Israeli Nokia.

That was my vision. And I decided I'm not going back to high-tech, but I need to do something about this. I joined then prime minister, then opposition leader Netanyahu as his chief of staff, had another stint in high tech and ultimately landed here. My drive in life is Netzach Yisrael, the eternity of the Jews. I'll do anything, thank you, anything to defend my country and everything to also strengthen Jewish presence all around the

world, including America, which is not an insignificant challenge. So that's my mission. I joined a year and a half ago, the Bait UD party. It was a tiny party with three seats out of 120 in the knesset it was for a hundred years predated israel it was the lobby party of the religious those with a knitted yarmulke in israel everything's complicated knitted yarmulke black yarmulke a black and knitted yarmulke you have the whole night my son just got a new york jets yarmulke. There you go. I'm not sure where that, sort of green, but it's, okay, anyways. So Israel's pretty complex. Anyway, so this party for 100 years was the lobby party that took care of the religious people's needs, of synagogues and mikvahs and kashrus and all of that.

But we no longer need a lobby party. And that's why this party that used to have 12 seats went down to nine, seven, six, three, and was about to evaporate. I came to the party and said, let's change the mission. And I competed to lead the party in primaries. First of all, let's open it up to non-religious, to secular Israelis. But secondly, let's change the mission.

We don't need a babysitter anymore, we the religious people. Our mission is exactly what I said, to restore Israel's Jewish identity. And I won. It was a landslide. And in fact, our number two contestant is an Israeli secular woman.

And she was, her name is Ayelet Shaked. She was elected number two by the religious, which means it worked. This message got through, and today we have 12 seats. We're the third largest party in the government today. So I want to come back to the mission of the party and your role in the government in a moment, but I first want to go back to the mission of the party and your role in the government moment. But I first want to go back to your time in the military when you were actually, you know, just out of high school and serving the IDF. In Startup Nation, we write a lot about these amazing units in the IDF that become incubators for Israel's next generation technology talent. Shmona Matayim, Tal Piot. What's interesting about the unit you served in is it typically is not a breeding ground for these technology

entrepreneurs. What did you learn in Seyret Matkal that actually groomed you to be a future very successful entrepreneur and business leader in Israel? That everything is possible. You can do anything. Seret Makal is the unit that conducted in Tebi, where you might recall there was a hostage takeover of an airplane. Air France, they flew it to Uganda, a thousand kilometers from Israel or something to that extent.

And the unit flew, pretended to be the Ugandan force and the Ugandan president Idi Amin took over the airport, released the hostages, blew up all the planes and flew back. So what we learn in the unit is that anything is possible. You just have to figure out how.

By the way, it is a breeding ground of entrepreneurs. I know of at least five or six successful founders of high-tech companies that are ex-sayer at Matkal. And I see here a soldier of mine, right? No, you look very similar. All right. You're bald. And it's unfair. I've got this and I'm bald too.

And I'm balding. But you're in better shape now. So, but it's not only that. There's another element. And it's not necessarily the Sayeret Matkal unit. It's any combat unit. So at the age of 22, I find myself leading behind enemy lines a group of 80 soldiers. 22 years old, you're leading a company, which is three platoons.

And you've got all this responsibility. You have to makeshift. You have to solve things quickly. And there's not all this responsibility. You have to makeshift. You have to solve things quickly. And there's not too many rules. So there are constraints, but you're sort of free to. And I always recall in my company, Syota, when I went to pitch a bank and we were all nervous, I said the worst thing will happen. We won't get the deal. No one's going to die.

And it sort of puts things in perspective. And I think that is a dramatic contributor to the startup nation. So what is your assessment of the startup nation today, of the state of Israel's economy? Because the backdrop, the mood music, if you will, right now in Israel is this. it's a very heavy time. It's a very heavy subject. The Arab world is in complete disarray. There's a big debate about what the future of Iran's nuclear program will be. And against all that stress and apprehension and pressure,

there's this booming high-tech economy. And you have responsibility for playing a major official role in that now in government, in that high-tech economy and you have responsibility for playing a major official role in that now in government in that high-tech economy how how is how is this mood music if you will the external factors impacting what you're trying to do on the economic front i think you you hit the nail on the head it's this uh we've got a storm going on in the Middle East, right? From Pakistan to Iran, from Libya to Yemen, from Syria to Tunis. The Arab Spring is evolving into Muslim Winter. And it might continue for the next 50 or 100 years. So it's here to stay.

And there's nothing we can do to change the fact that there is a storm. My vision of Israel is a lighthouse and a storm. And a lighthouse and a storm, think about it. A lighthouse has strong foundations. So we have a history that dates back 3,800 years. We have a very strong economy. We've got the most powerful military in the Middle East. So a lighthouse has strong foundations, but a lighthouse is more than just a tower. It actually projects light. And my vision of Israel beyond being a democracy

where women can drive, people can protest. And you think that was a protest outside? That's nothing compared to what you get in Israel. You may have seen Naftali brought a few of his friends. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we have 1.7 million Israeli Arabs with full equal rights, and I'm vehement about strengthening them within Israel.

But in terms of the economy, what we're evolving from a startup nation into what I call a lighthouse nation. And I'll explain. There's five areas of technology where we can do good for the world. It's water technologies, agriculture and food, cybersecurity, energy, and medical devices. And we're focused on China, on Africa, and India, and Eastern Europe, and actually all around the world. I just came back a few weeks ago from India. So I visited this small farm, one of a dozen model farms that Israel set up across India,

where we train Indian farmers and share with them our advanced agriculture methodologies and farming methodologies, and by the way, sell them some good Israeli products. But so I visited this farm two hours out of Delhi called Karnal. This PhD, this Indian PhD, about 35 years old, his name is Dr. Yadav, he told me, listen, until two years ago, we grew one kilogram of cucumbers

per square meter per year. now we're up to 10 and i don't know what to do with all these cucumbers so i told him pickle him um but now very jewish we absolutely that's right and then then sell them in the lower east side. And we train at each of these farms, 20,000 farmers a year. So this is what Israel is about. Israel isn't about conflicts all day. Israel is the lighthouse nation. and we're doing this in water all around the world. You know, Israel produces half of its municipal water is desalinated water. 85% of our wastewater, the sewage, is recycled, not into the tap water, it's okay, but to agriculture. Our water is great.

So we're a miracle. It used to be an issue. Water is no longer an issue. In 1967, war was a result of water problems between Syria and us. We've solved it. It's no longer a problem. Same in agriculture, same in medical devices. This morning, on the Upper West Side, Riverside Avenue, it's the Upper West, right?

There was a run of 40 paraplegics that ran with a system called Rewalk. It's an external skeleton for people who cannot move. And they actually ran today, 40. That's Israel. It's an Israeli company. It's an Israeli company. That's what Israel is about. Doing good, projecting light, even when we can't solve all our problems.

And we're gonna get to all of that stuff. We're an imperfect nation. I don't wanna say that we're perfect, but we try hard and we're trying to do good everywhere we can around the world. And that's what Israel is about. So... around the world. And that's what Israel's about. So it seems to me that there's this increasing isolation of Israel in the political and diplomatic arenas with the BDS movement and various

chancellories and ministries around the world, which aren't saying that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, but there's a big debate about whether or not Israel should have an outsized role in the region and in the world and its bilateral relationship with the United States. And there's all that you're describing, which is all this good stuff coming out of Israel, Israel truly making the world a better place. And yet one of my frustrations is it has not seemed to actually flow into Israel's geopolitical strategy. So there's this amazing contribution that the world needs innovation, the West needs innovation, and Israel's got it. And Israel is not, though, when the prime minister goes to meet with his fellow,

you know, heads of state around the world, why isn't there an innovation czar sitting from Israel, sitting next to him? So when the governments, when foreign governments are sitting down with Israeli leaders, one of the first things they learn, one of the first things they understand, the sort of the gateway, the doorway into a discussion about Israel is how Israel can help that country. Well, you're sitting next to the innovation cz are. That's my job. That's my job. And you just phrased it exactly right. Here's what's going on. So I became minister of economy eight or nine months ago, and diplomats and governors and ambassadors started coming.

And I was all prepared for the usual, they're going to talk to me about the settlements and the conflict and this and that. And one after another, they come and they ask me, they tell me, we're stuck. We don't have growth in South American country. My state in the West, in the United States, needs better cybersecurity. We need your innovation. They keep on coming. How do we do this thing? How do we inject this innovation thing of yours? And what I realized is precisely there's two different narratives. Now on the conflict narrative, we're always losing, even

though we're right. And we will get to that, I assume. But as much as we try and explain, certainly in Western Europe, they don't want to hear us. But there's a whole different field, which is the field of the and 2000 model farms in Africa and 500 water centers in Africa. Africa is not going to be talking to us about the conflict. All right. And likewise. So that's exactly our vision. Now, this is not philanthropy. We want to do it for business because that's the only sustainable way to do it. But I envision Israel as a Mecca of lighthouse technologies where we have Indians and Africans coming and spending two years in Israel, learning the innovation and vice versa. Israelis coming to China, living there. This, you know, we always talk about free trade agreements I'm trying to insert free talent agreements because today it's really complicated I want people to just flow and we want to give and enjoy it's a win-win so this is exactly what we need to do however we still have the version 1.0 diplomacy, the old let's go to Oslo and talk with, you know, the EU folks about the settlement over here and over there.

And we just need to speed up diplomacy 3.0, which is lighthouse diplomacy. I want to talk for a few minutes about some of the domestic issues you've been dealing with. So you formed an unlikely alliance with Yesh Atid, with Yair Lapid's political party, on a number of issues you seem to agree on. You don't seem to agree on peace process issues, but you agree on market- related issues and some economic reforms. And then most controversially, the issue of army service, mandatory army service for the Haredi Israelis. So talk a little bit about what, so you represent a national religious party and you, and maybe first talk about the growing role of the national religious Israelis in the IDF

and then why that movement that you represent would want to form an alliance with Yair Lapid's very secular party and very secular movement on this issue. So indeed, Yair Lapid, just to educate those who are not aware, he leads the secular party called Yesh Atid. We were the two surprises of the elections, if you will, sort of the next generation, the next thing. I didn't know him before the elections until the day after. I'd met him once a few years ago, but insignificant. And we formed this alliance that together represents 31 seats, which is a

quarter of the whole Knesset. It was for tactical reasons at the beginning, political tactical reasons, I admit. But it morphed into something more profound, which is what I call the 70-70 rule. 70% of Israelis agree on 70% of the issues. Yet we have a unique talent to focus on the 30% and argue ourselves. We can argue for hours, days, and decades. And that's what we've been doing. So we've had some chronic problems growing, and we rather argue about the Palestinians instead of solving the problems.

So we agreed to disagree on those 30% and continue disagreeing. But now let's focus on the 70%. One of the huge problems, this is a time bomb, is the Haredi issue. Haredi are ultra-Orthodox Jews. They today represent 32% of the first graders in Israel and that's fine there are brothers and sisters I love them but they don't work and they don't serve in the military and this is a problem it's the military is doing fine by the way we're we're good but the economy cannot sustain that because it's sort of like carrying a stretcher where less and less people every year

carry it and more and more are on the stretcher something's got to give you can't continue it's unsustainable and no one was willing to touch this we got together and we're driving through a bill that'll be done and finalized through all the process in about three weeks by the way this Ayelet Chaked the secular woman she's the chairman of the committee that's getting this bill through, which essentially will, over a timeframe of about eight years integrate the Haredim into the workforce and into the military.

Now, there are some subtlety and nuances. I am much more focused on getting them to work. Lapid, it seems, cares more about getting them into the army. These are nuances. They're important nuances. I'm, as Minister of Economy, I'm in charge of labor. So I've built a national program to train them

because many of them don't know basic math or english so israel the state of israel will fully subsidize one year of study for every haradi at anywhere he wants to learn a job you know vocational training and we've formed incentives for businesses to take them in because there is a degree of prejudice people are sort of reluctant to by the way i'm doing the exact same thing for another group which is the arab women arab women are underemployed in israel only 25 israeli israeli arab women there's 1.7 million arabs and i want them integrated in society The Arab men work and it's good. I'd like even more, but it's reasonable. Only 25% of Arab Israeli women work for cultural reasons.

Sometimes their husbands don't want them to work. Sometimes they're too far away. Sometimes they don't have the skillset. I want to break these glass walls. There's also prejudice. There must be. I figure that if an Israeli works side by side with an Arab woman and a Haredi, things will solve themselves. But right now they're not working together. So we need to tear down all these walls. And I'm obsessed with these two populations to get them into Israeli society. So in the areas where you and Minister Lapid don't agree, the Palestinian track, talk a little bit about your view because you have very strong views on issues related to the future of a prospective future of an independent Palestinian state.

Those issues were given a big spotlight during the campaign. And yet you're part of a government now that is committed to a two-state solution. And that is, you know, relatively deep into a process that has been given the strong, you know, support and facilitation by the U.S. Secretary of State. So talk a little bit about how you reconcile your views with your government's views. Sure. So Israel has a parliamentary system and indeed Prime Minister Netanyahu is very focused

on moving forward towards founding a Palestinian state within the land of Israel. And I vehemently oppose it. Yet I realized that his government is founded on this basis and I joined the government. So the framework to allow this sort of impossible thing to exist is the following. I don't think there's much chance

these negotiations will bring upon the peace. I can explain. Ultimately, the Palestinians have two entities, one in Gaza, run by Hamas, with about a million and a half Palestinians, and one in Judea and Samaria, a.k.a. the West Bank, run by the Fatah, by the PA. Now, let's even assume, I don't think they're going to reach a deal. I don't think anyone thinks they're going to reach a deal by the way, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis, but let's assume they do reach a deal with Abu Mazen for Judea and Samaria. Does it also

cover Gaza or do we have to give up all of Judea and Samaria? And then we're left with one and a half million people who say this deal does not, we're not part of the deal. We still want to kill you. It doesn't seem to me good business to do that. And so I said to Bibi, to the prime minister, go ahead, send it to Bilibni. When she goes and brings peace, we'll talk. Let her bring peace. but based on the parameters. Now, the second part is we're also passing a bill

for a national referendum. So if Israel is required to concede land and to kick Jews out of their houses, which I think is profoundly immoral, to kick anyone out of their houses, Arabs or Israelis. But if that comes to bear, let's go to the people. It's such a dramatic thing and we are going to get this bill through over the next six weeks. It's progressing and there's consensus to get. So I say go bring peace. there is peace right we'll go to a national referendum if

the people of israel support it i will respect that even though i disagree one last point i i passed by this um protest outside and they had a sign saying occupation stop the occupation i want to share with you something. I brought something along that I thought would be of interest for everyone, if I may, if it's here. So, okay. They're talking about anything beyond the Green Line. The Green Line is the area that we released in 1967. It includes Jerusalem, most of the ancient city in Jerusalem. Here's a coin, an original coin from year 66. It was the second state of Israel. We had the first one 3,000 years ago.

King David founded a kingdom. Then the temple was destroyed. Then 70 years later, the Jews returned, and we had a second state run by Hashmonaim and later on the second temple. So here's a coin from year 66. There was a rebellion against the Romans who were about to destroy Jerusalem and ultimately did. And it reads, Freedom of Zion. Just think about this. This coin, physically, I'm holding a physical coin

that was found outside the Green Line, what's called the Occupied Territories, where two Jews were probably doing business, and probably good business for that matter. They are Jews, after all. Turning cucumbers into pickles. Right. And they were

speaking the same Hebrew I speak today, living at the same very place that I work today. And it's my direct ancestors. Now you tell me, can I occupy my own home? So there's two issues that you raise. This very moving anecdote that you shared as a motivation for your view on the feasibility of an independent Palestinian state, or just the impracticality that you spoke to a moment ago, which is two governing bodies, one in Gaza and one in the West Bank,

regardless of what comes of it, it's just not workable. The politics of it won't allow it. Which is the primary motivation for you? It's a combination. Look, I have four kids. I dread the day, Yoni's already eight years old now. I've got Yoni, Michal, Avigail, and David. I dread 10 years from now when Yoni will go to the army.

I'm willing to fight as much as necessary, but I don't want him. And it's scary. I don't want to fight. There's nothing worse than war. And I'm saying it as someone who's been in the first Intifada, the second Intifada, in southern Lebanon, in Operation Defensive Shield, in the second Lebanon war. It's bad. Wars are bad. There's nothing worse in the universe than war. So we want peace.

But wanting peace doesn't bring peace. What I think we need to do, I realize, by the way, there are 2 million Palestinians living in Judea and Samaria. They're not about to evaporate. They don't love us. We don't love them. But there's growing realization on both sides that everyone's here to stay. No one's going anywhere. There's 400,000 Israelis living in Judea and Samaria,

aka the West Bank. 400,000. Another 300,000 in post-67 Jerusalem. So over the green line, there's 700,000 people in cities, huge cities. Maale Adumim, Jerusalem, Ariel. It's not a little tent with a guy with a beard and a uzi, as you might think when you watch TV.

So what do we do? First of all, there's no perfect solution. It's a very complicated situation. What I think we need to do is allow the Palestinians to have full self-governance. I don't wanna govern them. They need to vote for their own parliament, educate their kids the way they want.

Currently they're educating them to terror. I would hope that one day they'll just educate them. They can build their houses as much as they want and govern themselves. We don't wanna govern them, but we do need to retain security control. You know, the year 2012 is the first year in the past few decades

that there was not even one Israeli that was murdered by a terrorist. Why is that? Because we retained security control. So in the West Bank, there's two areas. There's the Palestinian controlled area where there's 2 million Palestinians and not one Israeli lives there. And there's the Israeli controlled areas where 400,000 Israelis live and about 70,000, that was a Canadian about, I don't know how it came out, And about 70,000 Palestinians live there.

My plan is different. My plan is for the, in the Palestinian controlled areas, they govern themselves fully. We don't roam around. We don't, they govern themselves, have full freedom of movement, live their lives. It's less than a state in the sense that they can't have an army and it's demilitarized

And you provide and the IDF is responsible for security along Prim and I'll add one more thing when we know of a particular terrorist who's preparing an attack We go in and pick him out and that's how we prevent the need to come with with a sledgehammer. Look at the irony I'll just complete the plan. The Israeli area, where there's 400,000 Israelis and only 70,000 Palestinians, we would apply Israeli law and offer full and equal Israeli citizenship to those 70,000 Palestinians. They'll be an equal citizen as I am. I know some Israelis are very afraid of taking in more Arabs because it might hurt the demography. It's insignificant. 70,000

out of 7 million population. It won't change much. And it's a reasonable solution. I don't like the word solution. That's too optimistic. It's a reasonable way for us to live with this conflict. Now, I'm sorry, doesn't that set a dangerous precedent if you start selectively providing citizenship to some Palestinians living in close proximity to Israelis? Right now, the number is inconsequential, but what if the number were to grow? Well, no, because we're creating two different areas. There's the Palestinian-controlled area, which is theirs. Take it.

Govern yourselves. You know, for the next hundred years. So it is what it is. We already have 1.7 million Arab Israelis, and it's fine. It's working. Life is improving. There's things we need to fix. But by and large, Israeli Arabs enjoy full equal rights.

So that's my approach. It's not accepted today in Israel. Still, everyone, not so much the Israelis, but the politicians, and certainly in the international arena, everyone is spellbound. Everyone is stuck in this conception of the Palestinian state in the heart of Israel,

even though it's not working. Look, over the past 20 years, every time we pulled out of a particular piece of land, within seconds or days or months, there was this big whoosh sound and Iran entered. We pulled out of Lebanon. There was supposed to be peace. In fact, we pulled out again in the second Lebanon war. There was a security council resolution, 1701, that said not one missile will enter southern Lebanon. There's a hundred thousand missiles in southern Lebanon targeted at my parents' home in Haifa.

So it doesn't work. We pulled out of Judea and Samaria. And from the very places that we pulled out, the cities, in the years 2000 to 2003, there were hundreds of suicide bombers that killed over 1,000 Israelis in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. It was hell. Living in Israel was hell. I was living in the States back then until we couldn't continue this.

So we recaptured those cities. I flew from New York back to Israel to participate in that operation. And friends died. I'm not willing to do that again we did it again though in the gaza strip we kicked out by force physically pulled 8 000 israelis out of their houses against their will destroyed their houses left gaza gaza is a jew area. There's not one Jew living in Gaza. Eight days after we left Gaza, they began shooting missiles from Gaza. They've shot over 8,000, 9,000 missiles on Be'er Sheva, on Sderot. What do they want? We pulled out.

Paris said it's going to be the Singapore of the Middle East. It became the Afghanistan of Israel. So how many times do you have to be duped? How many times do we need to try the same thing? And, you know, it was Einstein who said, you try the same thing and expect different results. That's the definition of insanity. I'm not willing to do that.

I'm not willing to risk my children's life for some experiment that some American or European thinks is the right thing. I'm not willing to. Okay, so I want to jump into some questions here because you have a number of them, as one would imagine. They're all over the place. That's a book. We'll see a book here. We're not going to get through all of them. But I'll start with the first one.

How will the energy development change Israel's political situation and global relations, that gas discovery? So just as a way of background, we found gas. And Israel actually was blessed for the past 65 years to not have had energy. It forced us to innovate. Now it's good timing to discover gas. We've discovered an immense amount, a huge amount of gas in the Mediterranean. What we need to do, first of all, is not let it corrupt us and funnel this money into education, into next generation things, and not into just

irresponsible spending. But this is huge news because what I envision now is the startup nation jumping on this new industry called energy, which was never available, and sprouting hundreds of new startups that use energy in innovative ways. Now, we never had this opportunity. So combine the Israel lighthouse nature, the startup nature with gas, good things are going to happen. And yes, it'll make us energy independent. By the way, I don't know if all of you know, but America within a very short timeframe is going to be energy independent. You're not going to be dependent anymore on Saudi Arabia and Middle East oil. This is huge news. That's because of shale oil fracking and all of that.

America, it turns out, has huge amounts of that. And you are going to be energy independent. We're going to be... This is good news. This is huge news for the world. How do you think that'll change America's geopolitical interest in the Middle East? If what you were saying is true, and I tend to agree that the United States is heading on a path towards energy independence, how does that impact America's posture to the region?

Well, certainly it reduces the dependency on the Arab world, OPEC and all of that industry. But you'd think potentially America can disengage, and it's pretty evident there's a movement in America, by the way, a bipartisan movement, a sort of semi-isolationist type movement. Like, we've got our domestic stuff. I don't want to care about the world. You wish, and I'll explain why. You can run away from the world, but 9-11 taught the world and you

that you can't run away from terror. If you don't address problems where they start, they'll come after you because Iran, Israel is not Iran's problem. America is Iran's big objective. You're the big Satan, not us. And so being a superpower, being the world's strongest country,

and it's going to continue that way with all the discussion about other. Still, America has the ethos of renewing itself. You have unique responsibility for the world. And I think America understands it. a security foundation in in this very difficult region that i can't share with you all the degree of cooperation and intelligence and security and building new technologies like iron dome imagine that shooting this is uh science fiction coming coming. All of this stuff, Israel and America are saving lives one of another, of each other. And I emphasize it's mutual. Intelligence that we're providing is saving American lives.

Intelligence they're providing is saving Israeli lives. So we have a very meaningful relationship that serves America well america well and certainly israel another question on the domestic economy how do you try to solve high cost of living high cost of housing uh and certainly in the context of the increase in the social protests what is your attitude uh towards the new wave of immigration from israel to germany in the united states is that part of the high cost of living? Some would say the prohibitively high cost of living inside Israel.

Well, you're right. Israel is too expensive. When I lived here up to 2004, New York was way more expensive than Israel. Now Israel is way more expensive than New York, than New York City. It's unbelievable. And it's prohibitive. You know, you go to the army, you pay your taxes, you're doing everything right. You get married and you can't, ends don't meet and it's wrong.

So we need to fix it. What we're doing is going to the source there's housing and there's the rest i'm dealing with the rest the prime minister and yara lapid and the housing minister they're dealing with the housing thing i'm dealing with all the rest as a common minister so let me talk about the rest we're breaking up monopolies example, we broke up the flight monopoly. We have open skies now for the first time in Israel's history. You're going to see flight costs over the next year. It takes time for new competitors to enter, but you're going to see it go down. We had a cement monopoly since the founding of Israel.

There was one company called Nesher. One. Why? Because. So, no, I changed that. monopoly since the founding founding of Israel there was one company called nesher one why because so no I changed that now we're gonna have competition supermarkets we're lowering the barriers to entry of imports I support imports I want to see competition I want price pressures. So we're doing all of that. We're trying to effect reform in the ports. It's tough. We have to do it so there'll be more of a flow inward. We're doing all of that. On housing, it's pretty simple to understand.

93% of Israel's land is held by one monopoly called the State of Israel. So only 7% is being used. So you can imagine why it's so expensive. We just have to market much more and not to the highest bidder, but to the bidder who will provide the lowest cost housing. So we're working on it. It's wrong. The situation right now is immoral. It's wrong and we're fixing it. How do you think religious pluralism and access to the Kotel are impacting the relationship of diaspora Jews to Israel? So this is, you want to talk a little about that ministry hat you wear with regard to the diaspora?

So I wear three hats, I'm the first guy who's ever been both diaspora minister and minister of religious affairs. And suddenly the problem meets. And I'll explain. In Israel, the Kotel is not a big issue. It's not being discussed. It's not something that is Israelis basically right now just want prices to go down and to live okay that's all they they want to to survive and and have a decent life but here abroad I was not aware of this and you know I it's shameful but I was not aware of the huge importance that the diaspora ascribes to the

Kotel and the Kotel historically had the men's plaza, the women's plaza, and that's it. And then you have groups of reforms and conservatives which in America are the lion's share of the Jews, who cannot exercise their religion at the Kotel. So this has been going on for 25 years. The Kotel became an area of fighting and bickering. And Natan Sharansky, who's the chairman of the Sohnut, came up with an idea to build a third plaza. But it was being talked about for years and no one did anything. Three months ago, I called the CEO of my ministry and I said, his name is Deville. I said, go build it. He said, what? I said, just go build the thing. Go build it. And he said, all right, you certainly want to bring it to the government. This is a big issue. It's a sensitive place. I said, no, go build the goddamn thing.

And key phrase, goddamn. Right. So within five days, we built it. It's up. There is a third plaza. It's open to anyone. Anyone can come. Reform, conservative men and women together.

It's 50 meters south or to the right. When you're looking at the Kotel, you have the men's, the women together. It's 50 meters south or to the right when you're looking at the Kotel, you have the men's, the women's, then you have the Mugrabi, this stairway to Temple Mount. And right on the other side, there's a beautiful plaza on a platform. It's actually, I think it's more beautiful than, you really look like one of my soldiers. It's funny. You should come and join the army. So, and it's open for anyone as of two months ago and the Haredi are criticizing me, the women of the wall are not happy, no one's happy, which means it's a good solution. Another question here reads, Israel is a country of miracles, making possible unheard of achievements.

But yet, why is it not possible for you to make a difference in PR, in Israel's public relations? You yourself have said it's a problem. First of all, you talk about miracles. We had a wonderful writer. His name was Ephraim Kishon. Ephraim Kishon, he was sort of the Dave Barry, or the Seinfeld, but 50 years before Seinfeld.

Funny guy. So he once said, in Israel, we don't believe in miracles. We depend on miracles. Regarding PR, yeah, we were pretty lousy at that. First of all, we're Israelis. Israelis don't tend to listen. In fact, in Israel, it's considered very impolite to let the other side complete a sentence.

In Israel, we have unique physics. Listen to this. When there's an elevator and the door's open and it's filled with people, you can actually enter the elevator before anyone leaves the elevator it's just magic first of all here i have to praise you because the book you wrote did more for israel's pr than anything i can imagine since the 16th war. Thank you. And your book represents precisely what we need to do.

Look, there's a battlefield of the conflict. Let's call it the conflict narrative. And we have a stronger case. We're right, but we are right. And I showed you the coin and it belongs to us. It's our home. There are two million Arabs and we have to figure out how to live together, etc., etc. But somehow that case is extremely difficult to make. And there are some audiences more hostile than you, usually in Europe.

And so there's two options. One is to, in this battlefield, to add new weapons, to invest more money, which we probably need to do. But there's a much better option. Change the narrative. Change the narrative. By the way, there was a book in the business world called The Blue Ocean Strategy. Basically, if two companies are,

you're a mug company, all right, a blue mug company, and you're fighting another blue mug company, and you add another handle, and they write 90-second why, and you lower the price by 10 cents, and they by 20, it's bloodshed. So the good solution, the bad solution is to continue fighting. The good one is to start selling this thing and change the market, change the narrative.

And that's exactly what we need to do here because it's virtually impossible. I've made the case again and again, but these people don't want to listen. They don't care about the facts. They're stuck in a narrative, stuck in this narrative. We just need to invest almost all our effort in the startup nation narrative,

in the lighthouse narrative, but not only talk about it, do it, do it, and talk about it. Another question here. You speak of Israel being a lighthouse nation. Can you speak about your plan to improve education in the school system to become a lighthouse to the next generation of Israeli citizens? So I'm not the minister of education, and we have a good minister of education. His name is Minister Shai Piron, and we're fortunate to have him, first of all.

What we need to do is, at the end of the day, we don't need more technology there. We don't need, it would be nice to have smaller classes. We need better teachers in education the the single factor that's most important is the quality of teachers i built when i was uh chief of staff to netanyahu a reform focused it was called the good people to teaching that's pretty cumbersome in English, but in Hebrew, it's called like the highest quality people should go be fighter pilots. And I have a whole plan around it. It's not

being implemented right now. I need to be education minister to do that. But ultimately, it's all about the quality of teachers. You were asked a question here. This is a technical question. What is the difference between the Minister of Economy and Minister of Finance? It's a good question. Minister of Finance is the fiscal guy. He's in charge of the budget.

OK, Minister of Economy is the execution guy. He's not the guy who kills people, he executes in employment in industry in high tech so the chief scientist reports to me the um antitrust guy reports to me employment industry and um and trade so also we're in charge of all the trade agreements. So we're basically the executive branch of the economy while he's the budget guy. He's stronger because he holds the money. Your job is better. It is. It's much more fun.

Everyone winds Tim and I get to do the fun stuff. Two questions before we wrap up that I have. I'll use the prerogative of the moderator here. One is, your political view is not typical from what I've seen to come out of the Tel Aviv, northern Tel Aviv, Ertzeliya, Israeli tech scene. And yet you've lived in this world of high tech and very successful entrepreneurial Israeli free market success? By the way, three weeks ago, I sold my second company. Three weeks ago?

Three weeks ago. $100 million. God's with me. This is excellent. What company? It was called Saludo. I didn't found it. I ran it for a few months.

It does remote fixing of computers. So you sort of click a button, right? You have your grandmother who always calls you, you learn software, can you fix my computer? And so grandma pressed this, that. So instead now on your iPhone, you can do, you know, install an antivirus and it just installs and it's cool stuff. So how common is your, it seems to me it's not very common, your political views on

the peace process in particular, on the Palestinians, in the high-tech, the burgeoning, modern high-tech scene in Israel? Not very common. And yeah, my company, I was always a desperate minority in the political discussions. Though things are changing. People are more somber. People, is that the right word? Yeah, sober. Sober. Sober, somber, both.

Whatever. I'm always trying out new words. They're both. People are more realistic now. They're less fluffy. I grew up on all the songs of peace, and we thought that if we sing enough peace songs, we'll actually have peace. It doesn't work that way. We're in this region that nice songs are not really appreciated.

I think very few people think there's a perfect solution to the Palestinian-Israeli thing. We have to sort of live with it. We have to improve lives on both sides. And by the way, lives are being improved for the Palestinians and the Israelis. The economy is growing. There's more joint businesses of Palestinians and Israelis. This is huge news. People are not aware of it. There's 30,000 Palestinians working together with so-called settlers. Does anyone know of it? Do you know that 20% of the Palestinian economy is supported by this sort of businesses? Do you know that never before, but now, there's a chain of supermarkets and shopping centers,

Rami Levy, where Palestinians and settlers shop together side by side. There's good stuff going on. So my thesis is let all of them go, you know, tippy go to Annapolis and negotiate. We'll build the economy. We'll make lives better for everyone. And we'll pray to God. I believe in God also.

Last question before we wrap. If you and I were sitting here one year from now, what would we be talking about? What do you think is going to happen in the next year? also. Last question before we wrap. If you and I were sitting here one year from now, what would we be talking about? What do you think is going to happen in the next year? You've got this peace process with the Palestinians. You've got a very tense situation, standoff, if you will, diplomatic standoff over Iran. Where are we going to be in a year? I think Israel's on a very good trajectory. I think Israel's exactly heading to the right direction. We're building the south, the Negev. We're building the Galilee. We're creating a cybersecurity capital. We're becoming a water empire in terms of technology. We're doing good. We just need to do more of it.

We need to connect to Yahudut. We need to connect to the Tanakh, the Bible. We need to connect to Yahadut, need to connect to the Tanakh, the Bible. We need to strengthen our roots, but also project light there. We will always be talking about the conflict even 100 years from now, because that's what you do. It's like chewing gum. But we can live with the Palestinians side by side and have de facto peace between the people, even if we don't have official and formal peace between the diplomats.

Minister Bennett, thank you for an illuminating discussion. It was a real pleasure. He used the term illuminating. So just remember, next time you're asked about Israel, it's a lighthouse and a storm. Thank you very much. That's our show for today. It's striking how many of the things Naftali Bennett said are still relevant, if not even more relevant now. Let's see what happens in the next 10 days. If you have questions for future episodes, tweet at me, at Dan Senor. Post-Corona is produced and edited by Ilan Benatar. Until next

time, I'm your host, Dan Senor.