Call Me Back - with Dan Senor - On Sexual violence and… Silence - with Shari Mendes

Episode Date: January 18, 2024

Having recently passed the 100 day-mark of Hamas’s massacre against Israel, two events in recent weeks occurred that should have occurred some time ago. The New York Times published a major investigative piece on the details and the scale of Hamas’s use of sexual assault in its warfare against Israeli women. And, in recent days, Pramila Patte -- the U.N. special representative on sexual violence in conflict -- has finally agreed to come to Israel to lead an investigation of what Hamas did on October 7. In this episode, we are joined by Shari Mendes (who was quoted in the New York Times investigation and also spoke at the U.N. on Hamas and sexual violence). Shari is an immigrant to Israel who has raised four children in Israel. She is an architect, the founder of an innovative non-profit in Israel to help cancer patients, and an IDF army reservist who serves in the unit responsible for preparing the bodies of female IDF soldiers through all the steps in advance of burial. Shari has seen firsthand what the world seems to want to ignore. In our conversation, she shares some of her observations, as well as her broader take on Israeli society as we pass the 100-day mark.

There were two rooms we worked in. One was the identification room, where there was a lot of activity. It was our job to remove clothing if needed, to take off jewelry, to give back to the families. The medical professionals didn't do this. We did this. We would wash off blood. But once the body was cleared for burial, we went into a different room. And that room was our room. It was just for our team. It was just for the women attending to these other women. And it had a very different atmosphere in that room. Most of us had or have army age children. And these could have been our daughters. And we loved them so much. We knew we would probably be the last people to see them. We had to give these women the love and the honor that they were not showed by these barbarians and

their death. And it was important 17th here in New York City. It is 5 a.m. on Thursday, January 18th in Israel as Israelis get ready to start their day. As we have recently passed the 100-day mark of Hamas's massacre against Israel, two events in recent weeks occurred that, well, they should have occurred a long time ago. The New York Times published a major investigative piece on the details and the scale of Hamas's use of sexual assault in its warfare against Israeli women. And in recent days, the UN Special Representative on Sexual Violence and Conflict has finally agreed to come to Israel to lead an investigation of what Hamas did on October 7th, and hopefully an investigation of what they have been doing in the tunnels of Gaza since October 7th.

That these events are even newsworthy is a sad statement. After all, they are obvious and long overdue. But they are newsworthy because four weeks since October 7th, despite the mounting evidence, the United Nations was silent. Listen to CNN's Biana Goldriga interview Sarah Hendricks, who is the Deputy Executive Director for UN Women. UN Women describes its mission as, the UN organization delivering programs, policies, and standards that uphold women's human rights and ensure that every woman and girl lives up

to her full potential. Here is the U.N. women representative. Is there a reason, though, Sarah, that you can't specifically call out Hamas and the mounting evidence now over seven weeks that Israeli investigators have collected that we've shown our viewers about the atrocities they committed specifically on October 7th? Because I think that's the crux of the issue here. It's not just condemning sexual violence against women and in any war in general. It's specifically what occurred on October 7th, perpetrated by Hamas. Indeed, UN Women always supports impartial, independent investigations into any serious allegations of gender-based or sexual violence. And within the UN family, these investigations are led by the Office of the High Commissioner of Human Rights.

And just to provide a little bit of context in terms of UN Women's role, UN Women specifically provides and has extensive knowledge on gender-based violence and provides and supports investigations as we do with all UN investigations. And so consequently, in this context, and within the UN system, it is the Independent International Commission of Inquiry, which for us has the mandate to investigate all alleged violations. That was quite a word salad. Like numerous women's organizations, there was a shocking and creepy silence in response to the systematic sexual assault and mutilation of Jewish women, or efforts to confuse the issue through moral equivalence. Here was CNN's Dana Bash interviewing Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, a progressive leader in Congress. I want to ask you about sexual violence.

And it's kind of remarkable that this issue hasn't gotten enough attention globally. Widespread use of rape, brutal rape, sexual violence against Israeli women by Hamas. I've seen a lot of progressive women, generally speaking, they're quick to defend women's rights and speak out against using rape as a weapon of war, but downright silent on what we saw on October 7th and what might be happening inside Gaza right now to these hostages. Why is that?

I mean, I don't know that that's true. I think we always talk about the impact of war on women in particular. In fact, I remember 20 years ago, I did a petition around the war in Iraq. Have you talked about it since October 7th? Oh, absolutely. And I've condemned what Hamas has done. I've condemned all of the actions. Absolutely. The rape. Of course. But I think we have to remember that Israel is a democracy. That is why they are a strong ally of ours. And if they do not comply with international humanitarian law, they are bringing themselves to a place that makes it much more difficult strategically for them to be able to build the kinds of

allies, to keep public opinion with them. And frankly, morally, I think we cannot say that one war crime deserves another. That is not what international humanitarian law says. Okay. With respect, I was just asking about the women, and you turned it back to Israel. I'm asking you about Hamas, in fact. I already answered your question, Dana. I said it's horrific, and I think that rape is horrific, sexual assault is horrific. I think that it happens in war situations. Terrorist organizations like Hamas obviously are using these as tools. However, I think we have to be balanced about bringing in the outrages against Palestinians. 15,000 Palestinians have been killed in Israeli airstrikes,

three-quarters of whom are women and children. And it's horrible, but you don't see Israeli soldiers raping Palestinian women. Well, Dana, I think we're not, I don't want this to be the hierarchy of oppressions. Yes, what happened on October 7th was awful, but there needs to be appropriate contextualization, so these leaders had argued. Enter Sherry Mendez, an immigrant to Israel who has raised her four children in Israel. She is an architect by training. She's the founder of an innovative non-profit to help cancer patients. She herself is a survivor of cancer. She's also an IDF army reservist who serves in the unit responsible

for preparing the bodies of female IDF soldiers through all the steps in advance of burial. Sherry, this child of a Holocaust survivor, has seen firsthand what the world seems to want to ignore about October 7th. On the eve of the arrival of the UN Special Investigator, Sherry Mendez shares what she has seen with her own eyes. She also shares her broader observations about Israeli society as we have just passed this 100-day mark. While we continue to learn more in horror what has happened to Israel, both in the massacre and the war fighting, the stories about hostages in captivity, and in the global backlash against Israelis for objecting to being slaughtered, mutilated, beheaded, burned alive, and sexually assaulted. But in addition to the horrors, we have also been in awe of the Israeli people. When one asks, as I'm often asked, how does Israel do it?

How do Israelis bounce back? How does Israeli society demonstrate resilience? The answer is in people like Sherry Mendez. Before we move on to our conversation with Sherry, one housekeeping note. I have been genuinely moved by many of you who have reached out and told us how meaningful this podcast has been for you. Some of you have rated and written reviews at Apple Podcasts, which has had the effect of these conversations reaching more and more listeners around the world. So your ratings and reviews are having a real impact. For those of you who feel that it's important that these conversations are heard, we ask that you join in providing a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And now to our conversation, Sherry Mendez on sexual violence and silence. This is Call Me Back.

And I'm pleased to welcome to this podcast for the first time, Sherry Mendez, who joins us from Jerusalem. Hi, Sherry. Hi, Dan. in a unique position to discuss what has been reported to be sexual violence perpetrated by Hamas on October 7th. It is so dark and so endlessly sad and sadistic that I think even for Israelis and for people engaged with Israel, who support Israel, who care about Israel, it is often a step too far into the darkness to listen, to even imagine. I actually know Israeli journalists who have told me that since the New York Times article came out following that two-month investigation, that they couldn't, they couldn't even, they're on the front lines of reporting these stories, and they couldn't even read the article because it was just too difficult. You know, everyone knows someone in Israel who's somehow connected to these horrors.

And so it's quite difficult. But it's also important to have these conversations because it's one aspect of October 7th that illustrates that it wasn't only about the decision for Hamas to unleash this massacre, and it wasn't only about the scale of it, but it was the nature of it, the nature of how they chose to fight. And so there's a lot I want to discuss with you, including how you found yourself in this unimaginable position of having to deal with this as a reservist in the IDF and what life has been like for you since then. So I want to just get into it and first talk about the IDF unit in which you serve. And this unit was called up on October 7th. Can you start by explaining what is this unit that you're in and how did it come

into being? Sure, Dan. I am a member of a reserve unit in the IDF. It's a special unit that was started by the rabbinate, and we are tasked with all of the procedures that are required after a female soldier dies. That is identification and preparation for burial. Now, this unit was started in 2010, and why would a unit like this be necessary? What happened was in 2010, the Army was thinking more female soldiers are volunteering to be in combat units. If they die, God forbid, it would be more comfortable if women dealt with them because in Jewish tradition, burial societies wanted to be able to have women dealing with them during identification and preparation for burial. So I was drafted into this unit,

first as a volunteer for many years in 2010, and then finally now as a special reserve unit within the Army Rabbinate. And Sherry, where were you on October 7th as you were learning about the unfolding of this massacre? Like almost everybody, we were home. It was very early in the morning and there was was a siren, and we ran down to our basement shelter with everyone else in our apartment building. And, you know, one aberrant rocket can happen. So nobody was too nervous with the first rocket. But as there were sirens

repeatedly, we kept having to go downstairs. It was a Jewish holiday. It was Simchat Torah. And people kept getting more and more ready to go to the synagogue, but then there would be another siren. And we were in our miklat, that's what the shelter is called, and people started to see news reports about what was happening. And it was horrific. We were all together. And as time went on, I realized that this could be the mass casualty event that we trained for, but never thought would happen. And we don't usually use our phone on the Sabbath, but we all turned on our phones, and we saw that there was an emergency call-up. and we started to go into the Rabanit base, which is in Shura, in the middle of Israel, near Ramleh, not too far from Tel Aviv. We started to go there pretty immediately, Saturday night, teams within our unit. And then talk to me about what you saw or learned on October 8th. I just want to be so clear to you that most of the women in my small unit were not medical professionals. And we came to this more out of a sense of volunteerism to help with preparation for burial identification.

And we were suddenly in the midst of a catastrophe. But I want to tell you that I am not going to overstate or understate anything I've seen. I'm just going to tell you what I and people in my unit saw with our own eyes. So our main concern, especially in the first days, was identification so that families could be notified, and only then preparation for burial. And I showed up with my team the morning my rotation started on Sunday morning. Another team had gone in the night before and they had already started to prepare us, but nothing could have prepared me for what I came into the scene I came into the base and it was unimaginable in two ways. It was unimaginable in terms of scale, in sheer numbers. When I got there, body bags were piling up, and there were refrigerator trucks lining up for almost as far as you can see. They couldn't even come in. Many of the body bags just kept coming, and they were oozing liquids, and the floor was wet, and the smell was unimaginable there. It's indescribable what we saw.

I can't overemphasize the number of bodies and the sense of shock and despair that we chanced into. We were there around the clock, sleeping there for the first two weeks. We've been working there around the clock since the war started. And we're a very small country. So we feel a lot of responsibility toward the families, which is why I think we've been there so much. What was, I mean, what you saw, did it have like an organized, the nature of these attacks, did it have like an organized, I know the whole operation of October 7th we know was October 7th, was organized and there was like an intentionality to it. But this kind of violence that you were seeing the product of, the effects of, did it seem to you to have an organized and an intentional aspect to it?

You know, we were all dealing with victim after victim after victim, the coalescing of the whole experience. We still haven't, I guess you would use the term processed, but yes, there seemed to be an intentionality in the way that people were victimized. We saw a lot of repetition of certain kinds of brutality. It was unspeakable. Our unit were tasked with doing any of the non-medical examinations. So we opened body bags. We were the first to see, and often we were not warned about what we were going to see. If someone had no legs, for example, it was a big

surprise, and that was a pretty scary moment for us. Some of the things we saw, victims were often shot in several places in the body, and then many times in the head. Heads and faces were often covered with blood. They were shot in the eyes, face, and skull many times, and almost everyone had blood still dripping from their ears, noses, mouth sometimes, even days later. It was often impossible for families to be shown faces of their daughters or sisters or wives. And it seemed to, you asked about intentionality, it seemed as if mutilation of these women's faces was an objective in their murders. At what point did you realize or notice that there was a sexual violence aspect to a lot of this? In other words, some of what you're describing, one could say, oh, it's grotesque, it's brutal, it's barbaric. It could still be all those things, but not have this sexual violence aspect to it.

When did that become a reality? Because I will remember, Sherry, I mean, I was following events minute to minute on October 7th. It wasn't right away that we were learning about this aspect of it. When did you learn about this aspect of it? I have to say that's correct. I think at first we were just stunned by the brutality and the violence of what we saw perpetrated on these women's bodies. I think that we started to notice, because we were dealing again only with female soldiers, women arrived sometimes in very little clothing. Their clothing was often bloody, shredded rags or sometimes just in underwear. Their underwear was often bloody, shredded rags, or sometimes just in underwear. Their underwear was often very bloody. Our team commander saw this, you know, when we would do rotations, we all briefed each other when we shift, when we went from one rotation to another.

She saw several female soldiers who were shot in the crotch, in the vagina, in intimate parts, or shot in the breast. This happened repeatedly, and it seemed to be a systematic genital mutilation of a group of victims. That's how many of the women came to us. And that is when, I mean, there are many layers to this, and probably perhaps many moments, and i've heard this from israelis who deal with who've been dealing with other aspects of this war there have been many moments where they said wait this is different october 7th is different it's it takes the notion of an of unconventional warfare to a whole other level and i suppose that was probably your version of that. It was an unfolding catastrophe. The onion was being peeled.

There were more and more layers. Again, we dealt mostly with soldiers. We did not deal with civilians who were at the Nova party where a lot of the testimony is coming out. Many of them came to us with their hands clenched, their eyes open, their fists terribly tight, their mouths in grimaces. And that was very difficult to see. But they were clearly tormented when they came to us. I have to say another thing we saw, because this is hard to describe. Charred remains arrived, and they had to be identified and prepared for burial. These bodies were burnt beyond recognition, often without arms or legs. They didn't resemble anything human anymore. Our only means of identification was by DNA, and that is made incredibly challenging if there's little tissue

left or if they're very badly decomposed. But these people were burnt so badly and at such high temperatures that it was almost impossible and they had to bring in special teams to extract DNA. There are still parts of people that are not identified. We would sift through these ashes, and these were buried, and they would disintegrate as we touched them. We saw several severed heads, one with a large kitchen knife still embedded in the neck. Their brains were sometimes spilling out, and they had to be collected for burial. Jewish law requires that every single body part be rescued and buried. Even the cloths we used to wipe faces are buried with the person. Every single body part is buried with the person. I should also say that they're buried in a very

respectful way in Jewish custom. I remember one soldier whose arm was broken in so many places that it was difficult for us to lay her arm in the burial shroud, her leg too. In her case, the entire left side of her body was shredded open, most likely from a grenade. And since it's customary to place a body in a burial shroud. We really tried with her. I can remember it to this day. I can still feel it. Her arm was like little pieces of marbles, and her leg too, and we just couldn't do it,

so we placed a pure white linen sheet on her as opposed to dressing her in this pure white linen shroud, and it was very sad to us that we couldn't do that, but that happened often. Another time, I have to say that some bodies could not be recovered until much later, because their communities were dangerous for many days after October 7th. I think this should be pointed out. So we saw bodies in very advanced stages of decomposition. And more than one occasion, I want to also add that this was dangerous for all of us who were working there in the morgue. On more than one occasion, our practices of our unit, to never leave the person alone, accompanying the person. The body. The body, yes.

I'm sorry, I hate to call them bodies. I know, I know what you mean. I know, and they were bodies. But to us, they were still our daughters, and it was so hard to separate from them. But they would come around and people would scream, run, get out, get out. And we would have to leave them alone. And that was painful for us. But why did they tell us to run? Because some bodies that were coming in, they were booby trapped. And it was dangerous for us. And they had to bring in sappers to actually clear the way back in. On a more personal

level, there were times when there was no color after a while. Everything was dark, dismal colors. It was dark brown or gray or dark green in these body bags and these people. And suddenly we would see a flash of color. And we would wonder, what is that flash of color? And it would be a beautiful manicure on these beautiful hands of these young women. And we as a group of women would be so moved by that. I just want to digress for a minute. There were two rooms we worked in. One was the identification room, where there was a lot of activity. We were working with a lot of experts. It was our job to remove clothing if needed, if there was any, to take off jewelry to give back to the families. The medical professionals didn't do this. We did this.

We would wash off blood. That was a room that was very busy. There was a lot going on in that room. But once the body was cleared for burial, 100% identified, we went into a different room. And that room was our room. It was just for our team. It was just for the women attending to these other women. And it had a very different atmosphere in that room. It had an atmosphere of, if I can dare say, holiness. We would sort of slow down a little bit. We knew that we had to give these women the love and the honor that they were not showed by these barbarians and their death. So we, as women, you know, most of us had or have army-age children, and these could have been our daughters. And we loved them so much. And we took a moment. We didn't have any extra time, but we would take a moment and pause

and just hold them in our hearts for a moment. We knew we would probably be the last people to see them. And it was important to us to pay homage to them. And when we would see these beautiful manicures, it was part of that. It was part of women relating to women. We all know that a manicure is a sign of hope. Women make themselves beautiful. And, you know, it was a sign of we're going home for the weekend and we're going to be with our loved ones and we're going to celebrate or just look beautiful. And we were there at the moment of the death of that hope. And that was very sad for us. The New York Times investigation reports that there were seven locations

where there was evidence of versions of what you're describing. Without getting into seven or six or eight, I think there's this impression out there that what you're describing mostly or exclusively happened at the scene of the Nova Musical Festival. But what the Times piece makes clear, according to the reporting, is this was happening in many of the sites all over the place. I mean, maybe not in every single place, but certainly it wasn't just like one area, one group of terrorists doing this. This was in multiple locations. I'm sure that's correct. We came in, we were not at the collection sites, we were at the delivery site. I do have to say that there were many women who, female soldiers who came to us, not from the Nova Festival.

They came to us from the army bases that were in the area. Those were attacked early because these women who worked, the female soldiers who worked at many of these bases, their job was to be lookouts. So they were among the first victims of October 7th because their job was to watch the Israeli-Gaza border. And it seems that taking them out first was an objective. Sherry, many of us over here in the U.S. and the broader diaspora have, and I hear this from friends of mine in London and Toronto and really all over the West, this whole notion of the, it's been like a political statement against Israel, against Zionists, against the Jews to tear down posters of Israeli hostages. And there seems to be something similar with the, we hear from certain corners, the denial that there was sexual violence, sexual warfare,

mutilation, a sense that, oh, that's all untrue or it's misinformation. What is your reaction to that? I mean, given that you're not someone who's just reading about what you saw, you saw what you saw. Just as a human being, what is your reaction when you hear prominent people around the world expressing skepticism? Dan, I cannot tell you what this denial does to me personally. I saw this with my own eyes. I'm a regular person. I came into this army unit brought in for my civilian life. I have a family, I have children, I have a job. No one asked for this. But even more so, I have to say, I'm a child of a Holocaust survivor, and I grew up with the worst. I think we had every kind of Holocaust story that you can imagine. We had family who died in concentration camps, who died in death marches. I had an uncle who died in the Sonderkommando.

He was 20. They pulled bodies out of ovens for six weeks, and then he knew they would be murdered. He was in the crematoria uprising at Auschwitz. How do we know that? We know that just from witness testimony. There was no social media, there were no cameras. We trusted their testimony. I grew up knowing that that's the only way we knew what happened to our family was because of eyewitness testimony. And there has been Holocaust denial, and that was already a trauma to our family. I don't understand how people can question whether or not this happened. You know, I am an architect in my private life, my profession, and my first job, I worked in the World Trade Centers, in the Twin Towers, and I worked on the 74th floor.

I was right out of architecture grad school, and I was close to the people I worked with. This was a long time ago. And I wasn't still working there when 9-11 happened, but many of the people I worked with were, and many of them were killed. And I remember, as I'm sure you remember, as I'm sure all of your listeners remember, that we didn't question, most people didn't question what happened. We trusted testimony. We trusted the pictures we saw.

We didn't question were those people pushed? Did they jump? Did it really happen? It's a sign of evil. It's a sign of re-victimization to deny me what I saw with my own eyes. I never thought that I would be victimized as a child of survivors and now again as a witness to atrocities. Why are these atrocities denied? Yeah.

I think there's an element of—we've had Yossi Klein-Halevi on this podcast who made the point early on that the tearing down of the hostages, and I think it applies to what you're describing, is there's this cognitive dissonance. If you have in your caricatured frame that Israel is the oppressor, then these stories, in a sense, give lie to that. And so you can't accept it. There's some of that going on. But you alluded right now to your personal story, you're a child of a Holocaust survivor, as you said, survivors in your family. I want to talk a little bit about your story. Where did you grow up? How did you wind up in Israel? Just can you tell us a little bit about your background? Okay. I spent early childhood in a small town in Pennsylvania, in the Poconos. And we gradually made our way to New Jersey. And I studied, I went to college and graduate school in Manhattan. And I only wanted to move to Israel

my whole life. I visited Israel when I was 17. And I fell in love. And I said, I'd like to live there one day. I even studied architecture because I thought it was a practical profession. Everybody needs houses all over the world or buildings, so I thought it would work here. That's been true, by the way. And somehow life got in the way. It took us a little longer. I met my husband, David, and I wouldn't date anyone who wasn't willing to move to Israel. He actually was born in Israel. He's very lucky. He's a Hebrew speaker. That comes in very handy. And at a certain point, when our oldest son was 13, we said, it's time.

It's now or never. We have to go while we still can before our children don't want to come with us. As it is, it was hard for them in those ages, but we did it. We moved about 20 years ago. We moved to a town in Ranana, and I actually was able to move my private practice, and I practiced architecture in Ranana for many years.

About four years ago, we moved to Jerusalem, and that's where we live now. Our children are all still here, which is wonderful. Everybody's gone to university and is working here. We're very, very blessed with that. I also started a charity, to tell you the truth about my life. Yeah, so can we talk about that, about the health setback you faced that was the catalyst for you starting this charity? Yeah, that's another example of a place I never expected to find myself.

I have been a person who has been surprised often at the places I found myself, but maybe that's a good thing. When life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. About 13 years ago, I suddenly was diagnosed with breast cancer. Routine mammogram, if I can just put in a pitch for everyone to schedule their mammogram because it saved my life. I know that's a little off topic, but it's an important topic. It was a terrible year, but thank God I'm fine all these years later. I had very good care. But during that year, I saw that it was very expensive to be sick. Israel's medical care is nationalized. It's very good.

But there are some very, very poor people in Israel. And if you are a widow or divorced with many children, or you're just getting by, social services takes care of your medical expenses and your basic living expenses if you're very poor, but you need a bit extra when you're sick. And many other countries have breast cancer emergency relief funds, because breast cancer happens to be a disease that has one of the longest periods of treatment. It often hits women when they're in their career years, their money-earning years. And if you're a single mom or for any reason, you have to stop working for a year, it's very rough. So I started this charity to give emergency financial aid a grant within the first year while women are in treatment. And it's been a labor of

love over all these years. And I'm happy to say that the Lemonade Fund, that's what it's called, the Israel Lemonade Fund, is working throughout the country. And we give to women of all ethnicities, religions, all you have to be in is Israeli within the first year of breast cancer. And we get referrals from all the hospitals in the country. And it's very satisfying work. Sherry, so you're involved with so many areas of Israeli life. You, like many Israelis, made the decision to make Aliyah. You've made the decision to raise children in Israel. You, as we're talking about now, built an organization to help other women in that area. You are serving in the reserves now, as we've discussed, during a war. This episode, this conversation we're having, is the first in a series of conversations we will be having to mark 100 days since the commencement of the war, since October 7th.

I still can't quite believe it's been 100 days. And it's not clear where it'll end or how it will end. But how has this war changed you personally? That's a great question, Dan. I should start by saying that we Israelis are very resilient. I consider myself Israeli, I'm proud to say. And we're very strong, and we have survived setbacks, challenges. This country was born. Holocaust survivors built this country when they had nothing to lose. If they could do it, we can do it. We will be okay. That being said, I have to say that on Tuesday, when the news came out that four soldiers were killed,

our nuclear family knew three of them. This war has been so sad because it's so personal for so many of us. How can it be that one family goes to three funerals in one day? Everyone in Israel has been touched by this war because we're such a small country. You go to the doctor. I went to the doctor recently and I said, how are you? Just for a checkup. And I said, how are you?

And he said, I'm fine. But my cousins were kidnapped to Gaza. As if he was saying I had cereal for breakfast. That's how pervasive it is. All of the businesses have been impacted. The Lemonade Fund, we have two part-time young men who work with us, students. They were both called away to reserves, so other people are filling in. That's a microcosm of what's happening in almost every Israeli business. I ordered glasses today, and they said, well, they probably won't be in quickly because there are so many people not working right now because they're in the reserves. Everyone knows someone who is related to a soldier who's serving, unfortunately, a soldier who's died, or someone who's been kidnapped, or a soldier who's been injured, or a survivor of the massacre. There are posters everywhere. There's a square in Tel Aviv where people gather. It's called Hostage Square. We can't forget about this. We don't go an hour

without being reminded. I'm sorry, 10 minutes without being reminded of this war. Yeah. You and I were talking the other day, and I mentioned that the closest we have here in the US and relatively recent memory is 9-11, as you and I were talking about earlier on this conversation, and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, there was someone, I was in Iraq in a civilian role for the. government, but I worked closely with the military, and one individual, his name is Lieutenant Colonel Chad Buring, who worked in a department that I worked in, a civilian military department in Baghdad, who was killed in the fall of 2003

in an attack against the Al Rashid Hotel in Baghdad, which was in the Green Zone. And he, I think about him, he came from a community that was highly concentrated by military families. And so when you get to know some of these communities, what you're describing is actually quite common, or at least during periods of American wars, it's quite common. But it's2 million people, as you say, but between the hostages, between the sexual violence, between the deaths, between the soldiers getting killed or injured in responding to this war, everyone's one degree of separation from one another. It's, no one lives in a sort of safe cocoon. When I say safe, meaning safe from just hearing about the horrors from people you know. I want to add also that since October 7th, there has been almost nonstop.

It has lessened in the last month, six weeks. But we were under rocket fire almost nonstop. So especially in certain areas, still in the Gaza envelope, either the entire population, either from the north or from the south, has had to run to shelters because of sirens. So it's even, there's that too, that has factored into people not wanting to go out. Restaurants were closed for a long time. I mean, there was no normal life for the first two weeks, for the first month, for even the first six weeks. There is still no normal life. But it has been a very abnormal time all the time. sexual violence, sexual warfare will not be unveiled or made public for years to come.

My understanding is due to legal protections for their privacy. What do you think the implications are of that? Because Israel's gone to great lengths to memorialize the lives of those who were lost during war, and it has obviously a responsibility, I'm sure we'll have a commitment to do the same here on the one hand. On the other hand, because of the way so many of these lives were lost, in many of the ways you're describing here today, it makes that process more complicated because there are all these privacy issues. I think it's important to note that that may be part of it. But from what I've learned, it seems to be also a psychological component that women who have suffered sexual violence often don't come forward, sometimes for many years, 10, 20, 30, even 40 years. I heard a story recently of a woman who was 85 who, on her deathbed, mentioned rape by Russian soldiers in the concentration camps. It took her 65 years to mention that. She had never mentioned it before. Added to that is the fact that there's

denial. And what victims of sexual violence need more than anything is support. They need to be validated. And they are now getting the opposite of validation. So many of them are saying, I've heard this. Why should we come forward with our stories if we're not going to be believed? I heard a woman in a rape crisis center once say, the first thing we do for these women is we believe them. That's the most important thing we can do for them. I see now that these women are not being believed. Also, it's important to note

that many of these victims were shot. They were raped and killed. So we don't have their testimony. Their testimony died with them. Unless someone saw that happen, we will never know about the extent of the sexual violence. Some of it was filmed by the perpetrators. We have that evidence, which I don't understand how that can be denied, but that's a separate issue. I don't know what this will do to Israel because this is a very painful thing to talk about. There is also an issue in Israel of protecting the families. Do families really want to know about the horrible ways that their daughters were victimized? And their privacy, just so that we can tell about the horrors, so that we can shock the world into believing us. I, to the world in regards to the sexual violence that we know about, at least, that was perpetrated on October 7th? I would say to the world that this is a kind of warfare that we haven't seen in this

struggle. And I hope it's against Islam. I believe it is. I know it's against civilized behavior. It's against peace. I just hope so sincerely that people will accept our testimony as truth because I saw it with my own eyes. It happened. Many people saw this. They're talking about it. It takes such courage to talk about this. Dan, I have to tell you, it's not easy for me to tell these stories over and over again to people who need to hear it. I do it because I grew up knowing how important testimony is. It's all we have with many of these stories. And it's, I hope people will give us the benefit of the doubt and believe us. Sherry, thank you for this.

I know it's not easy to talk about, but your are all blessed that you and someone like you with your not only smarts and insight and capabilities, but also just your humanity are, I don't wish this work on anybody, but we are truly blessed that you, someone like you and your colleagues are doing this. So thank you for being here, and thank you for everything you do. And God willing, we will have some positive news, a positive outcome sometime before we hit another 100-day mark. Thanks for being here. Thank you, Dan. Thank you very much. Thank you. That's our show for today. Just a reminder for those of you who feel that it is important that these conversations are heard, we ask that you rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts. I didn't realize how

much of a difference these ratings and reviews make, but it really does. Call Me Back is produced by Ilan Benatar. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Senor.