Call Me Back - with Dan Senor - The *real* tensions inside Israel — with Micah Goodman

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

Over the past 16 weeks, Israel has experienced one of the biggest protest movements since its founding. On the surface, these protests were about proposed judicial reforms. But was something deeper going on -- for both sides of this debate? On a recent trip to Israel, Dan sat down with Dr. Micah Goodman to better understand the forces shaping this debate. Micah, who has been on our podcast before, is on the speed-dial of a number of Israeli political leaders. He hosts the most downloaded podcast series in Israel and his books include bestsellers like Catch-67: The Left, the Right, and the Legacy of the Six-Day War and, most recently, The Wondering Jew: Israel and the Search for Jewish Identity.

The right feels, for the past 75 years, we were screwed by the left. The left feels, during the next 75 years, we're going to be screwed by the right. It's not just an argument about constitutional law. It's a clash of emotions between a tribe that's terrified that Israel is becoming an Israel they won't want to live in in the future, and a tribe that feels like, for the past 75 years, it should have been different. And now that's what we have here, a clash of past and future. Over the past 16 weeks, Israel has experienced one of the biggest protest movements since its founding.

On the surface, this was about proposed judicial reforms. But was the debate really about judicial reforms? Or was there something deeper going on? That's why I wanted to get together with Mika Goodman when I was just in Israel. Mika, who's been on this podcast before, is on the speed dial of a number of Israeli political leaders. He is a polymath, having written books ranging from biblical lessons for the modern age to Israel's geopolitics. Mika also hosts the most downloaded podcast in Israel. His books include Catch 67, The Left, The Right, and The Legacy of the Six-Day War,

and most recently, The Wandering Jew, Israel, and the Search for Jewish Identity. Not only have all of Mika's books been bestsellers in Israel, and some of which have been big sellers in the U.S. as well in English, but he essentially created a new genre, books that bring core texts of Jewish thought to a general secular audience. Mika Goodman on the real story going on in Israel right now and its lasting implications. This is Call Me Back. And I'm pleased to welcome back to this podcast my longtime friend Mika Goodman. We are sitting here somewhere between Jerusalem and the Dead Sea in Israel.

Mika, thanks for coming on. It's great to be here. Mika, he has many affiliations, but the one affiliation I'm most interested in today is you are the host of Mifleget HaMachshavot, the Israeli podcast, Hebrew language podcast, which the translation is party of ideas or party of thoughts. And what's most interesting to me about this podcast is, one, I have friends on the Israeli right who are infuriated by some of what they hear on this podcast. And I have friends on the Israeli left who are infuriated by what they hear on this podcast. So whether they're angry or happy or whatever, they're listening. This podcast has become a platform or a convening place for

these ideas that whether people agree with them or disagree with them, they feel they can't be ignored. It is the opposite of an echo chamber. And most importantly, it's the number one podcast in Israel. To be clear, I remember a while ago, this podcast was like number one in politics. It was the number one in kind of politics and news. Now it is the number one podcast. You're like the Joe Rogan of Israel, okay? I know, you don't want to be compared to Joe Rogan,

so maybe I won't compare to you. So before we get into the substance of what's going on here, that may actually be the best entry point into what's going on here. What are you talking about on this podcast that is making it where such a big conversation is happening and where all these people from all walks of political life and ideological life – and when I say political, I mean point of view. These aren't professional political people that are listening to it necessarily. Why is this where they want to be having their conversation? Well, I think, first of all, it says something about Israelis. If this podcast is the number one podcast, what does that say about, not about the podcast, but about Israelis?

Because this is not a podcast about politics as a horse race. We don't try to describe what's the secret ambition of Bibi and what does Gantz really want to achieve. It's not about personalities. It's not about ambitions. It's only about ideas. And the success of this podcast, me and my colleague Efrat Shapira-Roseberg from Beit Avichai, the success of our, says something about the power of ideas. Israelis are attracted to big ideas. It's a podcast about the big ideas that are behind and are energizing the small politics. Always or in this moment?

The entire podcast is about ideas. And now, and once we start discussing the big ideas behind this moment, our podcast became number one. Everyone is trying to analyze what is the secret agenda of different politicians. What's their weaknesses? It's usually podcasts and pundits discuss power. Me and Efrat, we discuss ideas. And shockingly, that attempt to discuss the ideas behind the politics became very popular in Israel.

The second thing I think that we have to understand here, that we discuss what every idea represents. We give it the best argument. We see every idea from all sides in its best light. That's, I think, the only way to really understand ideas is to be the fan of every idea you discuss. If it's an idea from the left, we're a fan of the idea from the left. If it's an idea from the right, we're fans of that idea. And that's how we bring the best out of these ideas. And this podcast might have an impact

that's trying to heal polarization. Because I think the best, the most healthiest way to heal polarization is to turn the other side from threatening to interesting. And the way to turn the other side, if you're a right winger, so it's the left, and if you're the left, so it's the right, the best way to turn them from so threatening, people feel like they're threatened by the ideas of the other side, is not by convincing them that these ideas are good ideas, but showing them they're interesting ideas. And when I feel less threatened and more curious about the other side, I think that could have an effect that could heal polarization. So those are the two important things I have to say about this podcast.

It's about ideas and the fact that Israelis are listening to it means I think Israelis are searching for, in this very polarized moment, for a sense of unity behind ideas, not behind personalities. Okay. So before we get into trying to diagnose, which you do a lot on your podcast, diagnosing what's really, you know, they say in Hollywood, you know, every movie there's like, there's like the story and then there's like the real story, right? Right.

There's like, it's like, it's, so there's the story of the judicial reforms and then there's like the real story, right? Right. There's like, it's like, it's, so there's the story of the judicial reforms and then there's like the real story. And you on your podcast, I'm talking about the real story, like what's really going on underneath the story. Yeah. Can you define first who we're talking about? And what I mean by that is you say the left and the right, who,

who's the right? Okay. Cause this, this also gets the, the punditry tends to make it a very one-dimensional conversation. That's right. So we shouldn't use the words left and right anymore, especially not discussing the debates we're having in Israel today.

We have a camp in Israel, which is not a small camp, not a very large camp, that supports the judicial reform of Yariv Levine. And Yariv Levine is the justice minister in the Bibi Nathanael-led government. He's a member of Likud, senior member of Likud, and he's been one of the two key architects of the judicial reform.

That's right. And then we have a very large camp. I would say almost all the people that support the reform are right-wingers, hardcore right-wingers. But then there's a camp that's against these reforms, and these are not only left-wingers. These are left-wingers, centrists, and some right-wingers are very much against these reforms. So right now, Israel's not divided right versus

left. At this moment, it's divided pro-reform or against reform. I think that's how Israel's divided today. And both sides make very interesting arguments. Both sides are very threatening, I mean, to each other. But in my podcast trying to show, they're also very interesting. Okay, now where, just defining who fits in where, where does the religious segment of the right block fit into this? So the ultra-Orthodox, Sephardic and Ashkenazi, very pro-reform.

Very much pro-reform. Okay, and then the national religious, Smoltrich, Ben-Gvir. Yes. I think the religious community in Israel is kind of split around these reforms. The political representation of the national religious community, Smotrich, they are very much pro-reform. But there are—I don't think there's a small amount of religious Israelis, Kippah-wearing Israelis, who are actually against these reforms. Right.

And we've seen this in the protests, but specifically in Jerusalem, where you see Kippah-wearing Israelis, are actually against these reforms. Right, and we've seen this in the protests, but specifically in Jerusalem, where you see Kippur-wearing people who very likely could have voted for Likud or voted for the national religion, and are against the reform. Okay, so now in your podcast, you talk, trying to understand, like I said,

what's going on and then what's really going on, there's a tendency to just do an x-ray of the Israeli public. That's right. But with an x-ray, you miss a lot. That's right. Right? And unlike an MRI, with an MRI, you get to see like the soft tissue that's really causing the pain. Whereas the x-ray, you can completely miss what's really going on.

So you try in your podcast to do an MRI. That's right. So let's do an MRI. This is a great observation of my colleague Efrat in my podcast, which he said, okay, we're discussing ideas and the clash of ideas, but is that what's really happening? Clash of ideas, that's the x-ray. But maybe there's something bigger going on.

And here's, I think, the MRI. It's not only a clash of ideas, it's a clash of very passionate emotions. Now, if you listen to the words, to the narratives of both sides, you see two very different narratives. That's what we'll try to do now. You listen to people on the right, people that are very much pro the reform, and you ask them, why are you for this reform? Why is this reform so important? So some people might give you some kind of a sophisticated constitutional answer that Aharon Barak's judicial revolution in the 90s, he went to four, we have to correct it. Okay, you might have that nerdy academic constitutional scholar

answer. But most people will answer very differently. Some will mention the Al-Talina. Okay, so you got to explain what the Al-Talina is. Okay. Some will mention the moment in 1948 where David Ben-Gurion shot at a boat filled with immigrants, olim, and guns. That was of Menachem Begin, of the Etzel, of like back then the Israeli right. And that was a traumatic memory. Some bring back- Well, hold on, just to stay on that, just for our listeners.

So Begin was the leader of an independent, shall we call it, political movement during the founding years that had its own militia. And that militia- Yeah, it's very, very- I know, I don't want to get into it, but I just want people to understand why the soon-to-be prime minister of Israel... He already was a prime minister of Israel.

So people may wonder why the prime minister of Israel is shooting at a boat bringing in arms... For the army. For the army, for Jews in Israel. That's right. So just 30 seconds on that. So I've been studying this. David McGurran misunderstood Begin completely. He thought that Begin is bringing these guns and he might use

these guns against McGurran himself. He misunderstood. He projected onto Begin his own anxieties and he shot down. And I think this is a common theory of what happened. And he tried to shoot down, his soldiers try to shoot down that boat. I think 16 people died that day. I might be confusing that. I think it might be a little bit more. So at least 16 people die. And that is a very traumatic memory.

And that memory of the Al-Talina is a part of the painful memory of the Israeli right. You listen to people and ask, what's the relationship? Why is the Yaltalena back when we discuss the reform? So you have another question. There was also a period, by the way, doing in the 1940s, where people from Ben-Gurion's movement

were handing over to the British, people from Begin's movement. It's called the Sezon. It's a very complicated story, but it's movement. It's called the Saison. It's a very complicated story, but it's also a traumatic story for the Israeli right. So during the British occupation of this area, during the British mandate, Ben-Gurion was turning over to the British authorities members of his Jewish rivals' movement. In a small period called the sezon, the season, the hunting season, actually.

He was doing that. Now, he might have had good reasons. I don't want to judge Ben-Gurion. He's a giant and I admire him, but that's the narrative. So all these painful runes, and now they build up. And then you have another painful rune, the Mizrahi Jews coming from Arab-speaking countries to Israel, and they feel like they were incredibly mistreated by David Ben-Gurion's left-wing labor movement.

And so you have this frustration being accumulated from the way the Mizrahim were mistreated, from the way the revisionists were mistreated. The revisionists are Began's people. And now there is, now a narrative is bought in. They also felt like in the Oslo Accords, they were mistreated

and Oslo was politically stolen from, like there is a narrative. I don't think people... Oslo meaning the peace process between the Israelis and the Palestinians under Rabin and Perez. And they think that

the way Oslo was passed in the Knesset was in a way that was not fair. They were cheating. Yeah. And while they were cheating politically, the press and the Supreme Court didn't say anything about it.

Right. And then as the narrative moves... Before we get to that even, from 48 up to, you know, Begin's election, say, in 77, you had the labor movement having super majorities in the parliament. 70, 80 seats.

So Israel was effectively a one-party state. That's right. And if you weren't that party, you felt really shut out of... Exactly. And then the disengagement from Gaza, which is probably the most important open room for the Israeli right.

So 2005. 2005. And while there was a disengagement of Gaza- And just again, so Ariel Sharon announces he's going to unilaterally withdraw from the Gaza Strip, which meant uprooting thousands and thousands of Israeli settlers- From their homes. From their homes who had been settled there by governments of the left and right going back decades.

That's right. And suddenly- That's right. There was a consensus that these settlers should be living in Gaza. And one day, the Israeli government says, we're pulling you out of your homes. We're digging up cemeteries. And literally...

And it's traumatic. But what's also traumatic is when they were protesting against this engagement. So there's stories. Now, I didn't check if these stories are true. It doesn't matter. They build up to a narrative. 14-year-old girls are thrown into jail.

So they appeal to the Supreme Court. And as an Israeli journalist, Amit Sekhla says, we called the Supreme Court and no one was at home. No one would listen to us. 14-year-old girls. Thrown into jail. For what? For protesting, for blocking roads. For blocking roads, trying to fight the disengagement. And the Supreme Court enabled the police to use that kind of violence against protesters. So there's a net. And so you see there is, I would say, 75 years of frustration are built up. And now it's all bursting out.

Now, if you want, in a nutshell, the Israeli right, this is what it feels. When we weren't in power, you used your power against us. Now, when we are finally in power, you're taking our power away from us. That's the whole narrative of the judicial reform. That once the right gets elected, so power shifts from the elected bodies to non-elected bodies to the Supreme Court. So this is how the narrative goes. When we weren't in power, you abused your power.

You used it against us. Now we're finally in power. You're taking the power away from us. So this is a narrative of a tribe. It's called the political tribe of the right that feels like for 75 years, the political tribe of the left has been abusing it, has been humiliating it, and all these years of frustration have built up. They're saying, now it's our time.

Finally, we're in power, and we're gonna keep the power. The power will stay in our hands, in the legislative body, where we're the majority, and not move somewhere else. It's not just about what's the constitutional ideal structure of Israel. It's 75 years of built-up frustration being exploded as we're talking right now. Now when you look now, I'm gonna change I'm gonna I'm gonna I want to listen to the other narrative, right? There is something else happening in Israel.

Then we had the reform and now we have the reaction to the reform. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis leave their homes every Saturday night, carry an Israeli flag, which by itself is extremely impressive. Maybe we'll discuss that later. Protesting passionately against these reforms. Their sense that Israel is going through a hostile takeover, that once, that they are actually canceling the ability of the court system to cancel political decisions of the governments, of the executive branch of governments,

and of the Knesset, of the legislative branch of governments. And if you listen to them, they're speaking about how this reform is dangerous, how it might turn Israel into a dictatorship. But you listen deeper, there's something else going on. You see here a tribe, let's call it the more liberal tribe of Israel. They see Israel becoming more and more Haredi, more and more ultra-Orthodox. And they're reading what different demographers are saying, that in a few years,

Israel has a very ultra-Orthodox future. They also see the Israeli right, sometimes extreme right, like Itamar Benvir, is getting stronger and stronger. They see how... Well, they look at this government and they say... Yeah.

And they look at this government and say, oh, yeah, and they look at this government They say well, this is how Israel's future looks like demographically, right and they are terrified and This reform is unleashing all that anxiety. They're fighting against a reform, but actually they're expressing their tremendous anxiety So we have here two camps with two different sets of emotions. One camp is filled with frustration.

The second is filled with anxiety. The frustration of the first camp of the right is built up frustration from our past. The anxiety of the second camp is anxiety directed at our future. Okay, let me ask you. You say on your podcast you make the best case for each side. I want to at our future. Okay, let me ask you. You say, I mean, on your podcast, you make the best case for each side. Yeah.

So I want to do that here. You're not getting into the rightness or wrongness of the right's position. You're saying the right is frustrated, has experienced some humiliation. Okay? Yeah. Do you think there's there there substance for them to be frustrated and humiliated about? Yes. Yes. Yes.

So can you? I do think it's exaggerated. I do think when social media builds a narrative, so there's no subtlety, there's no nuances, but I think there is truth to the fact that when people on the right feel like that when they weren't in power, power was used against them. Sometimes it was abused, was used against them. I think there's truth there. And it's also not a coincidence that once the right is in power, power was used against them. Sometimes it was abused, was used against them. I think there's truth there. And it's also not a coincidence that once the right is in power, power is taken away

from the legislative branch of government. Now, after saying that, me, I'm personally, I'll come out now, I'm against these reforms. I'm against these reforms. I think they're too radical, too fast, too quick. And they're creating unintended consequences. Do we need to reform the judicial system of Israel? I think we do. You know what else thinks we do?

70% of Israelis. But here's how the consensus we see in polls in Israel looks like. Most Israelis want a reform. They don't want these reforms. They're too quick. They're too radical. They're too dangerous. They'll have unintended consequences.

That's what 75% of Israelis want. It's true. In the deep left, they think the status quo is sacred, unintended consequences. That's what 75% of Israelis want. It's true. In the deep left, they think the status quo is sacred, is holy. We can't touch it. Right. And in the right, they want a radical reform. And now, most Israelis want a moderate reform. It needs to be gradual.

And most important, it needs to be a kind of reform that most Israelis could agree with. And on the right, having some legitimate issues or legitimate gripes, concerns, frustrations, among them is lack of representation on the Supreme Court, right? From these communities that are not Ashkenazi, you know, elite. There is a sense that the only body, political body in Israel that is heterogeneous is the Knesset because that's, the K Knesset whether we like it or not represents who Israel really is and Israelis look at the Knesset and they see themselves

and they look at the Supreme Court and they don't see themselves that is true and the Supreme Court because it had a hand in the justices in choosing their own that has contributed to this sense but that has also gradually changed in the past.

Ever since, I forgot when it was, Guillaume Salle's reform. Yes. 2008. Ever since 2000, that has also changed. This is changing. It's changing naturally. It's changing gradually. And now, you see, we're living in a reverse world.

After the French Revolution, being a leftist means you're for change. And being a right-winger, you're for status quo. In Israel, because that's whoever sat to the right was for freezing the status quo in the National Assembly in France. And whoever sat in the left was for change. And ever since then, we have those metaphors. The more left you are, the more you're for change and you hate the status quo. The more right you are, you're against change and you're for status quo. In Israel now, we're upside down, where the left is for the status quo and the right is for radical change and status quo. So right-wingers are thinking like left-wingers and left-wingers are thinking like right-wingers. But most Israelis, 70% of Israelis, they're not that conservative like on the left.

They don't think we should conserve the constitutional status quo in Israel. We should make adjustments and changes, but they shouldn't be radical like Yariv Levin, like what the right started to promote. Okay. So now you acknowledged some of the legitimate concerns of the right. Let's do now on the left. Well, think about it. Well, Israel is suffering

from a democracy deficit. It's a very specific deficit that's unique to Israel. We don't have many checks and balances to begin with. We have a deficit in checks and balances. Think about it. If you're the Israeli prime minister, so it's like the president of the United States, the decision he makes, there's some decisions that the governor of Texas could override right? Because there's bodies that are small in the state than the country. They're autonomous We don't have any autonomous by it's smaller than our government If you're you're other than national than national government, right if you're your there's no state governments There's no that's right if you're not part of any kind of confederation like you right? No If you're European- ED HARRISON So there's no state governments, there's no- CESAR GAVIDIA That's right. ED HARRISON And you're not part of any kind of confederation,

like the EU. CESAR GAVIDIA Exactly. No, if you're European, there's a body that's larger than you. ED HARRISON Right, right, right. That's what I mean. CESAR GAVIDIA So that's what we call vertical checks and balances. If you're European, you might be, there's a balance because you're part of the EU that's larger than you that might limit, that will limit the power of the government.

In the United States, there's governments that are smaller than the national government. In Israel, all power is concentrated in one place. So you ask, okay, but maybe the legislative branch will be a balance to the government. In Israel, it can't balance the government because every government in Israel, by definition, has a majority in the parliament.

If it doesn't have a majority, it wouldn't exist. So what could balance the power of government? Only one body, the Supreme Court. And that is why these are two facts. Here's two facts. The left is always saying we have a deficit in checks and balances. All we have is a Supreme Court, and they're right. The right is saying we have a very, very dominant,

activist Supreme Court, and they're right. They're both right, but it's connected. We have a very dominant Supreme Court, maybe more than any other country in the world, arguably, because there's nothing else to balance the power of government. So if we want our rights to be protected, not by the goodwill of our political leaders,

but by the structure, the structure of government itself, we need a Supreme Court that can override decisions of the government and decisions of the Knesset. Now, did they overstep? Yes, they did. Is there a sense that when you're in government, you're not governing, you're just trying to please the Supreme Court in Israel?

Do some politicians have that feeling? Yes. Does it have to change? Of course. But Yeriv Levine's reform are de facto canceling the power of the Supreme Court to override decisions of the Knesset. So now to understand the anxiety of people protesting in the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, let's think about this.

You know that if Yariv Levine's reforms pass, our rights, our liberties are only protected by the goodwill of these politicians. And then they look at these politicians, and who do they see? Itamar Ben-Kvir. Right. And they see some statement that they make, and they have a panic attack. It's a panic attack I could definitely sympathize with. And they feel like, okay, Israel is going through a hostile takeover. Our rights will not be protected.

And this triggered all the anxieties they have anyway from Israel's Haredi future and ultra-Orthodox future and right-wing future. And all those anxieties that existed anyway, we only had one reform. All those anxieties were unleashed. And now we have a clash between the frustration of the right, which I sympathize with, and the anxiety of, let's call it left, it's not only the left. And now that's what we have here in the streets of Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and all over Israel, a clash of frustration with anxiety, a clash of past and future. The right feels throughout, for the past 75 years, we were screwed by the left. The left feels, well, you know what?

In the next, during the next 75 years, we're going to be screwed by the right. This is what we have here, past versus future, frustration, classes with anxiety. I think that's the MRI of Israel. That's where we are. It's not just an argument about constitutional law. It's a clash of emotions between a tribe that's terrified that Israel is becoming an Israel they won't want to live in in the future. And a tribe that feels like for the past 75 years, Israel wasn't the country we should have lived in. It should have been different. So you have past versus future, frustration versus anxiety.

That's our best attempt to try to offer an MRI of what I think is really clashing in the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. You have been an observer of Israeli politics and political movements as much as anyone I know. Have you ever seen anything like these protests? These are incredibly impressive protests. I've never seen these kind of protests. And I also think that these protests are unique also on the world scene. These protests have three very unique characteristics. think that these protests are unique also on the world scene these protests

have three very unique characteristics one they're extremely passionate extremely passionate and then they're not violent at all now that is a tremendous unique asymmetry think about it throughout the world where you like we see people protesting now in France and we could compare right? So when protests the more the protests beginning summer of 2020 in the United States So I think I would say the basic law of protest looks like this. It's so obvious. It's even embarrassing to say The more passionate protest is the more violent it is and if it's not violent, it's probably not passionate in Israel we have this shocking asymmetry between passion and violence very passionate not violent at all That is an Israeli startup

We were with I was with ambassador nights when I was here US ambassador to Israel and he pointed out Take a step back and recognize regardless of where you stand on these protests No arrests nobody killed unbelievable now by the way take a step back and recognize, regardless of where you stand on these protests, no arrests, nobody killed. Unbelievable. Now, by the way, when is this podcast going to be? In a week from Monday.

A week from today. Okay. I hope. I mean, I just want to be on record saying, until now, we've enjoyed this miracle. Until now,

we've been enjoying this miracle of this asymmetry between passion and violence, which is very unique. And I think it shows something about the resilience of Israelis. A second characteristic is that it's a very patriotic protest. Now, this is something. When people protest, they lose subtleties. They lose nuance. And the most important nuance we have a tendency to lose, and we see this throughout the world, it's a human weakness that we have, is that when you hate a government, you start hating the country itself.

We have this tendency, what I feel towards the government becomes what I feel towards the country Here we have protests of people passionately protesting against the government or against some of the policies of the government and The holding the flag of Israel. It's the most powerful image by the way. It's the most powerful Not just I mean sea of flags a sea of flags sea of they're singing Hatikvah. And they're singing the national anthem. It's so patriotic. So the ability to hold that subtlety, to be passionately against the government, and the same amount of passion for the country, loving the country, that is another Israeli startup.

I looked at the protests in the United States after Trump was elected. Nationwide protests. Or after his government was sworn in, or he was sworn in as president. You look at the Black Lives Matter protests in the U.S. after the George Floyd killing. Regardless of what you think of Donald Trump, what happened with the charges of police brutality, whatever. But the protests turned into not just a critique of a particular politician or policies, it turned into an indictment.

Of America. Of America, the founding, the founding of America, what the founding represented, and what has been institutionalized and become systemic in the history of America since its founding. They were literally like backing up the truck and loading, what else can we load in there in this? As opposed to saying, we love this country,

we have a real problem with this particular issue, and that's what we're protesting against. And that, I think, here created a space for people to come in because it didn't feel alien to them. Exactly. And also, when people get very passionate and rallied up, they lose nuance. That's what happened in America.

This is passionate protest with a tremendous nuance. We can't stand the policies of this government, but we love this country. And that is also enough now. And that is, I would say even more, you would, like, I see this with American Jews. Many times American Jews that have a hard time with the Israeli government, they start not liking Israel as a country. We see that many times. And we also saw this in certain parts of Israel's left, where their anti-right-wing government started turning into an anti-Zionist sentiment. And now what these rallies are doing, they're bringing people in from the left, some of them for the more extreme left, and now finally

they found their Zionism. Can you imagine a camp that finds its Zionism while it's protesting against the government? It starts loving the country more than the past while it's hating the government and its policies policies just like the past That is another Israeli Israeli startup and finally If you close your eyes and you imagine okay such a patriotic protest With flags of Israel singing a tikvah celebrating our founding document McGill atat Ha'atzmaut, which is a declaration of independence, which itself is a tremendous document.

And all this patriotic symbols. Around the world, when you see so much patriotic passion, it's almost always not liberal protests. And many times, when you see throughout Europe, passionate patriotic protests, many times they're even anti-liberal. They're against immigration, against certain rights, and vice versa. When you see very liberal protests, they're not patriotic. And this is what we have here. One of the most patriotic protests in our history are for liberal values, or to protect human rights institutionally, not just because of the goodwill of the politicians. So this is, I think, this is what we found.

Israeli protesters managed to strike this yin-yang where we are simultaneously very national and very liberal, very patriotic and fighting for our individual rights. So that itself is another tremendous achievement. So those are three achievements of this protest. The asymmetry between passion and violence, protesting against government, not against country, and the yin and yang of being very national and very individualistic,

very patriotic and very liberal, that yin and yang. And after saying all that, this triple miracle, I don't want to say it's a miracle. The miracle sounds like it's just a fluke. No, I think these three characteristics offer us a window into Israeli psyche. Like these protests are a window into Israeli psyche and Israelis are as we're talking

Pulling off something pretty amazing I don't want to jinx this it might not continue. There might be violence. It might become it all this could change This is Alice could change. I hope it's fluid. It's very very fluid. Yeah, but as like but but but When are we? April 2023. Right. Okay. We managed to put together this triple miracle.

And after saying that, there is, I think, a dark side to these protests. There's one dark side, which is a stain on these protests, I think. And that is while they're trying. And I sympathize with the cause because I myself, I'm against these, I'm for reform, against these reforms. And how they're going about it. And definitely how this government is doing it. As protesting against reforms,

they started using the army, our military, as a political weapon. And this is how it goes. In the Israeli, I think majority of Israeli pilots are in reserves, are in Milui, right? And in order to stay qualified, they have to come and train at least once a week. And think how amazing that is, Dan. You know these people, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

These are people with busy jobs. They're venture capitalists and business and met doctors. And every Thursday or whatever it is, whatever day their day is, they leave their job in the afternoon. They go fly F-16s for an afternoon. And they do this into their 20s and 30s. And if they don't fly for a while They're not qualified

So and then they come out And some of them say not all of them If these reforms are not frozen We're not showing up Now that's a very serious problem Now I don't want to measure that ethically I just want to think about what this means about the future of Israel The fact that that threat Was legitimized in Israel's public,

it was legitimized because Israeli's former chief of staff, Ehud Barak, supported it. I think another chief of staff, Dan Haros, I think, I'm not sure, I think he also supported it. So it's not like a very marginalized group. It was backed. A lot of former major, Amos Yadlin supported it. A bunch of these former senior military. Yadlin supported this threat? Yeah. He supported the Air Force.

The Air Force. Wow. That's hard. That's okay. So it was legitimized and it was very effective. One of the main reasons why these reforms froze was because Galan said, if these reforms pass, we might not be able to protect ourselves. And what he meant was the pilots and other units

saying we're not going to show up. So think about, while we're talking, there is an event happening in Israel, but there's also a memory being created. And what's going to affect the future is not only the event, it's also how we remember these events. Here's how we might remember this. There was an attempt, a certain group of reserve soldiers

made a threat and it stopped the reform. So it legitimized the threat, and the threat was effective. Okay, so now, 10 years from now, the government wants to evacuate seven settlements in the West Bank in order to deal with the Palestinian question. Will it be able to do? Well, here's what's going to happen. With not low probability. People on the right will say, we're not showing up. Right.

And it's legitimate. So you could have national religious right-wing reservists in the military saying, we won't do it. Well, it could have happened in the, I mean, if you rewind and go back to the future with the Gaza disengagement in 2005, Israeli soldiers said.

And in 2005, they didn't do that. And now they say, well, it's legitimate and it's effective. So if it's legitimate, I'll do it. And it's effective, I'll definitely do that. And now they say, well, it's legitimate and it's effective. So if it's legitimate, I'll do it. And it's effective, I'll definitely do it. And then you'll find, because that's the memory that's being created now. And which means no future government will be able to evacuate any settlement in the West Bank. And if you just take this further, which probably means Israeli future governments cannot implement controversial decisions.

Now, since almost by definition, great decisions will be controversial, maybe what's set in stone now that Israel can't do great things anymore. If great things are always controversial, and you'll have a tribe that's passionately against it, and it could use the military in order to stop it. So that probably means that Israel can't do great things anymore. So that's my analysis of these protests. They're beautiful. They're amazing.

They're unique. They're passionate and not violent. They're for country and against government. They're liberal and they're patriotic simultaneously. That's the power, that's the beauty, and there is a stain. The stain that I think that people who are using this threat,

I'm not sure they're thinking through the future results of this threat. It might mean that Israel, Israeli governments will not be able to make great, they'll be able to raise taxes, to lower taxes. They'll be able to do small things, but will we be able to raise taxes to lower taxes. They'll be able to do small things But will we be able to do census military operations fine fine, but anything that's contra anything that's big Which will probably be in common in historic wills or will probably mean controversial

It'll be it will be hard to do in the future So that's my analysis of the beauty of these protests and the stain Yeah, sort of the promise and the peril. Yes. Where do you again crystal ball? Qualify this, you know a thousand times. We don't know it's April of 2023 where do you think this is all going? Do you think this protest movement and and they and the conversation it stimulated lives beyond what is the probable death of the judicial reforms. At least the probable death of the judicial reforms as they were introduced. Yeah.

Okay, go ahead. I don't mean to- So it could end with a compromise that now President Herzog is trying to put together. My guess is there'll be compromise. Benny Gantz, observe Benny Gantz. He's going to be the player that will enable this compromise. And we might find himself with a compromise

that 70% of Israelis can live with. And a compromise meaning you have most or all of the Bibi-led bloc vote for it, and then you have Gantz's party vote for it? Probably, yeah. And it might, and by the way. So suddenly you're talking about it passing with 70, 80 votes as opposed to votes. Maybe, that's possible.

As opposed to 64. That's possible. Maybe Lapid will join if it's a good compromise. That would be, that would be, and that would be, I would say, that would end the turmoil we're in, but the demons, they were unleashed. That's what I'm trying to get at, right. The demons, the energy, the frustration of the right is still alive. The anxiety of the left is still alive. The beauty of these protests,

they're bringing, that are enabling so many Israelis to feel like this is their country, they own it, they're fighting for it. That, and the stain of these protests, the fact that we used the army one time and it was effective when we, when in order to block a political move, all this will stay with us for many, many years.

The light and the beauty of these protests and the darkness, all this will be staying with us for many, many years. So that could, and the question is, can we channel this energy to build a great Israel in the next 75 years? Channel this energy. That's, I think, our big,

that's the big question that we're facing after all this is over, but it could also have a very bad ending. I want to end on an upbeat note. Okay. No, no, no. I'm going to ask you this question. We're on the eve of celebrating Israel's 75th anniversary.

Yes. I was recently reading a couple of essays by Barbara Tuchman. One she wrote, I think, in 1958 about a visit to Israel. Another one, I think it was right after 1967. You read these essays, and she nails it. I mean, she nails Israel, and even, she doesn't nail it in the moment. These are essays. These aren't, she wrote these, like, you know, she nails it looking back, you know, decades

later, you kind of, it resonates with you what she she nails it looking back you know decades uh decades later you you kind of it resonates with you what she's writing even now yeah so israel's about to be turned 75 75 years from now just big picture looking back what what like are we going to look back saying you know what happened here like okay so here here's what I think is happening. And again, this is a prediction, and I'm probably wrong. But I think a large memory is being created. And that is, we had an experiment of a government that is very extreme.

That Likud, that we have the most extreme version of Judaism, ultra-Orthodox, the most extreme version of Israeli politics, extreme right-wingers like Itamar Ben-Gurion and Likud. And for many years in the right, this government was a fantasy. One day, there'll be a pure right-wing government

with no centrists, no liberals, nothing there to block us, and then we'll see what happens. And it was a fantasy. It was really called a government, a right wing government, which is pure right. No, because there was always, Bibi's government, there was always someone to the left there from the center to balance him. So he had Gantz in the government, he had Sipi Livni in the government, he had Gideon

Saar, right? And the best way to- Now he's the most left wing member of the government, he had Sipi Livni in the government, he had Gideon Sarre. And the best way to- Now he's the most left-wing member of the government. That's right. Now the best way to destroy a fantasy is to implement it. Now I think what's happened is this government has turned a fantasy into a bad memory. In the future, this government, I mean for years this government was a fantasy of the right.

Now for years to come, I think it will be a traumatic memory for many people including in the right now What happens when you turn a fantasy into a wife for including on the right? Many people on the right feel very very disgusted by this government. I see okay Not all people right, but many people on the right and and and this government Might be seen in the future as one of the worst governments Israel has ever had. So that itself is very interesting because Israel had very pure left-wing governments in the past. And the left implementing its pure ideology, this is a very strong Israeli narrative, has led us to the second intifada. The second intifada brought destruction to the political left. I think what we might see now is a bad memory being created, there'll be destruction to the fantasy of a pure right-wing government. But Israel is not going back to left-wing ideologies.

What the second intifada did to the left, I think these moments might be doing to the extreme right, which might mean that Israelis that are now past not one trauma, but two bad memories. We have one bad memory of what happens when the left turned and took its pure ideology, a two-state solution, blind to reality, and trying to implement it purely, what we had was the second tifada.

Now we have right-wingers behaving like left-wingers, taking ideas, trying to implement them, not listening to economists, not listening to some military leaders, not listening to all the signs, trying to implement it, not seeing reality, and now reality rebelling against your own plan. What we might see, this is for the right

what the second tifada was for the left and if we're lucky, this will lead us to strong centrist governments in the future. Alright, we will leave it there. Mika, thank you as always for taking the time

and getting my head popping with like a thousand other questions I want to ask you but I won't ask you now which means I'm going to have to have you back on happy Independence Day thank you that's our show for today to read any of the English

language versions of Mika's book you can track them down on your favorite bookstore or at Barnes & Noble. That's barnesandnoble.com or at that e-commerce site, which I think they are calling Amazon. Call Me Back is produced by Alain Benatar. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Senor.