Call Me Back - with Dan Senor - What we know about captivity in Gaza - with Glenn Cohen

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

Share on Twitter/X: https://tinyurl.com/3rnj5dz7 Since October 7, there has been a debate inside Israel about what cost Israelis should pay as a society to get their fellow citizens home, or, what the cost would be to Israeli society if their fellow citizens do not return home. One perspective we have not heard is that of a professional who led the debriefing of every single living hostage upon return, including children, women and the elderly; those who were held in underground tunnels and those who were held in apartments above ground by Gazan families; those who were held captive alone and those who were held captive with other Israelis; those who were medically treated, and those who were tortured. Glenn Cohen is that person. He made aliyah to Israel from the United States as a young man and joined the IDF. He had an impressive and improbable career in the military (which we chronicle in Chapter 12 of THE GENIUS OF ISRAEL - https://tinyurl.com/4hpxsx2x). Glenn was an air force pilot, a Mossad officer, a hostage negotiator, and a special forces psychologist. He served in the Mossad for 25 years, retiring as the Chief of Psychology with the equivalent rank of Colonel. During the current Israel-Hamas war, Glenn served for over 100 days in reserve duty as the head psychologist of a team that debriefed the hostages upon their return. To reach Glenn Cohen or learn more about his work, visit: https://www.glenn-cohen.com/ Rachel Goldberg Polin's speech that was featured in the episode, can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZX79M3k-L4 To learn more about Hersh Goldberg-Polin: https://m.facebook.com/BringHershHome OR IG: Bring.Hersh.Home

The mission of somebody who is in captivity, whether it's a soldier or a civilian, is to find a way to maintain control. And one of those ways to maintain control is a sense of orientation, to understand your whereabouts, where you are, what time of day it is. And so many of them found ingenious ways to keep track of time. And one of them was a teenager, a teenage boy who was given three dates a day, and he saved the pits every day. He put aside three pits and he kept track of the days according It's 7 p.m. on Thursday, May 30th in New York City. It's 2 o'clock a.m. on Friday, May 31st in Israel as Israelis wind down their week. It's an understatement to say that the experience of being a hostage is impossible for anyone to imagine. It's unfathomable, except for the very small number of people who have tragically experienced it themselves. At the same time, Israelis are wrestling with making a collective decision about the cost they are willing to pay as a society to get their fellow citizens home. Or the corollary, Israelis are wrestling with a collective decision

about the cost to Israeli society of their fellow citizens not returning home. One perspective we have not heard yet is a professional that has actually debriefed hostages upon their return, including children, women, and the elderly, those who were in underground tunnels and those who were in apartments above ground being held by Gazan families, those who were held captive alone and those who were held captive with other Israelis, those who were medically treated in captivity, and those who were tortured. Glenn Cohn is that person, and during the current war, Glenn served for over 100 days as the first psychologist to debrief hostages upon their return. Glenn made Aliyah to Israel from the United States as a young man. He's the product of a Jewish day school education here in

New York, and he joined the IDF. He had an impressive and improbable career in the military, which Saul Singer and I chronicle in our book, The Genius of Israel, Chapter 12. I encourage you to read that chapter because you get the totality of Glenn's extraordinary career. Glenn was an Air Force pilot, a Mossad officer, a hostage negotiator, and a special forces psychologist. This ultimately led him to the Mossad, where he served as chief of psychology in the Mossad. Glenn Cohn, on what we know about captivity in Gaza. This is Call Me Back. And I'm pleased to welcome my longtime friend, Glenn Cohn, from Israel, who joins us from his Moshav, somewhere between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

He is prominently featured in mine and Saul Singer's most recent book, The Genius of Israel, where you can even hear more about his background and bio than we discussed in the introduction. But for today's conversation, we are going to jump into the work he has been doing mostly since October 7th. Glenn, thanks for being here. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. I mentioned in the introduction that you were the chief psychologist for the Mossad for most of your career. Before we get into October 7th, what is the chief psychologist for the Mossad? Well, as you can imagine, being in the Mossad is a very intense experience and we take people really to the edge, pushing their envelope. And what the psychologists

are in charge of is to actually select the right people to see who's got the right stuff to do this kind of intense work. And after selecting them to help train them psychologically, give them the proper tools to be able to work under extremely stressful situations, I compare it to being an astronaut way out there under extreme conditions, hostile environment, the slightest mistake, game over. And after training them to work with them and their families and their teams to bring them to peak performance. And so that's what I did for many years until I retired about eight years ago. So you retired eight years ago, but you're still a reservist, right? Yes. For the past 20 years, I've been in an IDF special unit

that deals with hostage situations for the past 20 years. Now take me to October 7th. We all remember what we were doing as we were learning the news of October 7th. Tell us about your experience that day. Yeah. For me, it was waking up with the family to all the sirens and the barrage of the rockets and in our safe room. And very quickly, I got contacted by my reserve units, and they called me up to come in to deal with different hostage situations. And the first situation, this is already about nine o'clock in the morning, we get a notice that there's a mother who had informed the unit that two of her young boys were actually kidnapped. And so she described to me in an incredibly calm manner what she had heard from her son,

who called her from a phone saying, Ima, Ima, they're kidnapping us, as he and his brother were being dragged across the fields towards Gaza. And we kicked into action and tried to help. Unfortunately, it was already too late. And at that stage, pretty quickly, we realized that there are over 3,000 missing people. And my job at that stage was to try to help reduce the number of missing people. And it took about two weeks until the first hostage release occurred. And then I actually shifted into a different mode where I became the first psychologist to actually meet the two hostages who were released by Madh Hamas on October 20th. So there's no real protocol or precedent for this kind of event. How did you

define your specific role in this crisis? Well, so what happened was once the first hostages were released, we actually kicked into action and met them. But what my part of it was, it was decided and rightfully so that it's a good idea to have a psychologist meet them. So I was chosen because of my background as a specialist in captivity. I was appointed to be the first mental health professional to meet them as they arrived in Israel. And so I met them there. As they crossed, I realized then that we're not geared for this and they're women and children, young children. There's never been a case like this ever. I was in contact with the White House.

The Americans were very generous with their information and their knowledge. And their personnel. You've told me this, that there's a special envoy for the U.S. administration for the president that deals with hostage negotiations, and they have a whole infrastructure and team, and you had access to these resources and these people. Yeah. The problem was that they have a lot of experience, but not And that became my job the next day on October 21st. After I was involved with the first two, I realized I really need to make order and to find a way to accomplish two really important tasks. One, most important, is to give the hostages a soft landing and to give them a virtual hug as they return. Of course, it's not a good idea to actually touch them without permission, but to give them a virtual hug,

give them a soft landing, that's most important. By the same time, there's another task that we have to be able to find out what's happening with the other hostages left behind. And so that was part of the protocol that I put together. And in coordination with the Army and the security forces and the Ministry of Health and the hospitals, I found myself putting together this protocol that would help them and help us achieve these two important tasks. And as they arrived, when the hostage deal was put into place, another 105 hostages were released. Now we actually operated according to this protocol that we actually had to create. So two months into the war, at the end of November, 105 hostages were released in that exchange deal in exchange for a pause in fighting. Tell me about what you actually did as they returned. Yeah, so we had a couple weeks to

prepare. I was leading a team of about 30 psychologists. As the hostages arrived to the hospital, and at the hospital, they met with their families and the staff of the hospital. And at the hospital, they met with their families and the staff of the hospital with kid gloves. And then my team kicked in together with another intelligence officer to sit with them and to actually hear each one of the hostages who were released to hear their story and to give them the opportunity to talk about what they went through. And this is upon arrival. It could have been two in the morning, four in the morning, over the course of seven nights, spread out over six different hospitals. And so there was a lot of motivation. There was a lot of adrenaline. And it also helps them initially make sense of the experience that they went through.

And that's actually part of working with trauma. You want to help people shift their control from more cerebral context, that shifts the control to the neocortex and to actually talk about it in a cognitive way and making sense of it. And the difference in experiences, just generally, of the 105 hostages that you debriefed, the difference between male and females in their overall experiences? Yeah, well, there's definitely the main difference is what category you fall under as far as if you're a child or elderly, a mother, a woman or a male. Yes, there is a difference.

And first of all, not many men were released. So we do know to say that for sure the assumption is that the men were still held in captivity, are being treated in a much harsher way physically. Any male who is of fighting age, whether that's under the age of 50 or if it's a male soldier, the assumption is that they are going through a very difficult period of physical abuse. That's definitely something that we can say for sure. But there are males who are elderly males. And so the chances of them being physically abused are lower. And so it really depended what category you were in. But in general, I can say that all of the ostriches experienced some type of abuse, whether it be psychological, physical, or sexual. Even children, even though in general,

most of them were held together with a family member. There were some children who were held alone in an apartment for 30 days. There were some children who were subjected to the GoPro footage of the atrocities, and they were forced to watch that at gunpoint. Some of the children were beaten up a bit and also some elderly. But I would say that in general, almost everybody went through some type of psychological abuse. There was one case of actually a woman who was physically attacked and tortured physically and interrogated in a very, very harsh way. And she was also sexually attacked. And that's actually the worst case scenario of the 105 or the 112 who actually returned. Glenn, I want to transition now to a video that you and I discussed and that we're going

to play here, which is a speech that was delivered by Rachel Goldberg, who is the mother of Hirsch Goldberg-Polin, who has been held hostage since October 7th. And his story is well known. And we will include a link in the show notes to his story for those who want to learn more about Hirsch. And his parents have been just unbelievably courageous and extraordinary in every way one could possibly imagine. And it's hard to imagine, obviously, what they're going through. I had a conversation with him when I was last in Israel, which we played on this podcast. But I want to play this video.

It's a seven-minute talk that she gave at the National Library of Israel in Jerusalem. It was a few weeks ago. So let's listen to that. And then I want to respond to some of the things she said. My name is Rachel and I'm the mother of Hirsch Goldberg Poland. Hirsch is 23. He's a dual American Israeli citizen. He's a civilian who was at the Nova Music Festival, as you all know, on October 7th. And before being stolen and kidnapped into Gaza, his dominant arm was blown off at the elbow. And for the last 166 days, I live on a different planet than all of you,

all of us hostage families do. Every morning I get up, and just like in the spirit of Purim, which is just around the corner, I put on this costume of a person and I pretend to be human. Because if I do what I feel like doing, which is lying on the floor and weeping, I can't save my only son and I can't save anyone. When thinking what message I would share with the diaspora at this moment in our Jewish story. I think of Ishmael from Sefer Breshit. When he and his mother Hagar were cast out into the desert, you know Ishmael runs out of water and he begins to die. And the text describes him crying out to God to save him.

And just as Hashem is about to save him, our Meforshim tell us that the Malchei Hamlachim say to God, God, what are you, bananas? Do you know who this person is going to be the father of? Don't save him. He's going to be the father of all the future enemies of your people. He will be the father of Amalek. He will be the father of Haman.

He will be the father of the Nazis. He will be the father of all the future enemies of your children. But our God is a God of mercy. Our God is a God of compassion. Our God is a God of grace. And he saves him. He saves the future father of all of our pain. We are created, B'tzelem Elo pain. We are created,

B'tzelem Elohim. We are told in Vayikra, be holy, Hashem is holy. We are told in Devarim, walk in God's ways and be God-like. And I think to myself, if God saved Ishmael, who he knew would be the progenitor of all of our future enemies,

how much more so, would be the progenitor of all of our future enemies, how much more so, must we save our people now? In Gaza right now this morning, we have grandfathers, brothers, sisters, fathers, spouses, sons and daughters. Remember, there are still 19 young women in Gaza who are all presumed to be pregnant now because of the abuse they have suffered. We need to save our people. We say we are an am kadosh. Kadosh is a funny word. It's always hard to explain. In English, we like to say it means holy, sacred, hallowed.

But actually, kadosh means different, separate, special. Part of being different and special is that we will do things that seem extraordinary. For example, we will pay a high price to get innocent people back because we value life and we think it's precious. And that is what makes us a holy people, a different people, an am kadosh. And so paying a high price should be something we are proud of and we lean into and we embrace. As my husband John has said, the price to bring home these people will be high, but the price not to bring them home will be higher because we will never recover as a people. We will no longer be the nation who can claim to value life. And we will have to look our children and our grandchildren in the eye and say to them,

I love you in sweet dreams. But if someone comes and drags you from your bed in the middle of the night, we are not coming. And then we really will have lost because we will not coming. And then we really will have lost because we will not be recognizable to ourselves. We will look in the mirror and see a stranger blinking back at us. People are getting comfortable with the idea that there are hostages, and that is absolutely unacceptable.

To be Jewish means to make hard choices that are righteous. To be Jewish is to embody compassion. To be Jewish is to be godly. Now is the time to use your voice. Now is the time for the diaspora community to speak resolutely and with conviction to the men who are in power, who will be deciding the destiny and identity of the Jewish people going forward forevermore.

We stand here at a crossroads from which we can never undo this next choice. Now is the time for the diaspora to tell the leaders of this country who are not thinking straight because they are still speaking from a place of continual, unending, throbbing, sharp, ongoing, guilt-ridden trauma. This is the time to act the most holy we, the Jewish people, have ever acted in our history. This is the time to do something out of the ordinary, the likes of which have never been seen in any people's history. Now is the time to save 134 innocent souls for no other reason except that it is holy and it is the most Jewish response to October 7th that can possibly be done. solitary and only way that our entire people, our entire nation, will ever heal from the agony and shock that has torn the soul of our nation to its core. I pray with all my heart and soul that the next time I see all of you, Hirsch will be right here next to me.

He will actually love it here because he loves to read. Now go out, my friends, and be holy. So Glenn, there's a lot to unpack in this speech. Let's start with the general perception and assumptions the Israeli public is making. One of the most gut-wrenching moments of this talk is when Rachel says that the women are assumed to be pregnant, meaning impregnated by their Hamas captors or by those who committed the massacre on October 7th, presumably through rape. I hear this a lot in the Israeli just general public discourse. You see this a lot in the Israeli press. What Rachel's saying is reflective of this perception, this

sentiment. But we don't actually hear anything authoritative from the government on this particular issue. What do we actually know? Well, first of all, I need to say that in general, this goes very deep. The way we perceive captivity is not just from October 7th. This is something that runs very deep in our ethos and our DNA of Israeli culture and Jewish culture. And it goes back to Masada 2,000 years ago, where most Israelis have a preconceived notion that it's better dead than to be in captivity. And that's something that I see over and over again, civilians and also soldiers. Many, many soldiers will say,

I'm keeping the last bullet in my magazine for myself in case I fall in captivity. And that is something that I feel a need to debunk certain myths about the way we perceive captivity. And that is one of them, because as terrible as it is, and of course it is, and it's traumatic, and it's hell, captivity is hell. At the same time, though, 112 people, they went to hell and came back to tell the tale. And I'm sure that if you ask them, they'll say they're happy that they didn't die on the way to captivity. And they're happy that they didn't keep the last bullet for themselves or that somebody else didn't kill them. Because there are people who say, okay, if I see you being taken into captivity, they

make a deal amongst themselves. Like I'm going to kill you to save you, to spare you captivity because people are assuming worst case scenario. And again, what we saw on the 7th of October with the massacre and the rape, that was the scenario of the 7th of October. In captivity, we're not assuming that that's what's happening. We're not assuming that everybody is being massacred and raped. And so it's very important that we get a balanced approach to the way we perceive captivity. Of course it's very very tricky and very sensitive because on the one hand of course we want them to be brought back today and now and we have to do everything possible to apply pressure and to make that happen.

At the same time, it's important that our minds don't run too wild and for us to be paralyzed and for us to have more of an accurate picture of what's happening there. Because I've heard many stories of people who've come to me, even as a psychologist, who've sat, they've come here to sit on my couch and say that they're traumatized, even though they didn't know that I dealt with the hostages. They just knew I was an expert in trauma. And I've heard people come to me and say, I'm traumatized because I heard from very reliable sources that every woman there is being raped and so much so that they committed suicide, for example. So there's a lot of misinformation that people, it's not malicious and it's not disinformation, but it's misinformation because people hear different rumors and people are assuming that

every single woman who's there or who was there was and is being raped on a daily basis and that they're all pregnant and that there are abortions and suicides and a lot of stories and rumors that they're just not accurate. And so it's really important that we get a balanced approach. And again, it's very, very tricky because like I said, it's hell and they need to be brought back now as soon as possible. But we don't have any concrete information about people who are pregnant or abortions, but we are prepared for that worst case scenario. And it's important to be

on the one hand prepared for the worst case scenario, but it's important to be, on the one hand, prepared for the worst case scenario, but still have hope. Be prepared, hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst. And I think it's an important message also for all of us so that we're not paralyzed by this and not to assume the worst case scenario that everybody's being raped and everybody's pregnant and abortions and et cetera, et cetera, and suicides. That's just not accurate. There are certain cases of rape, but it doesn't mean everybody and it doesn't mean worst case

scenario. And then the same thing is true about the numbers of how many people are still alive. Most people are assuming that hardly anybody's left alive. By the way, Glenn, that particular point, every single conversation I have, not with officials, I mean, with regular Israelis who are civilians or folks I speak to in the US, they all assume most of the hostages are dead. And it was only based on a conversation I had with you some time ago where I reflected that view. And you're like, based on what?

Like, why do you think that? So can you talk a little bit about that? A, why we think most of them are dead, how that information gets out there, and B, why you're skeptical of that conclusion. It's a great example of the misinformation, how people hear like one bit of information and another bit, and then one and one becomes three, and then it becomes a fact, and then people are traumatized by facts that didn't really happen and events that didn't happen. For example, with the number of hostages, people about a month ago when there was talk about another deal brewing, the number of 33 came up as a number. And people hear the number 33, and in

people's minds, they assume, okay, that means that there are only 33 hostages alive. But no, 33 is the amount of hostages that we're talking about in the humanitarian category. The humanitarian category is children, women, elderly, injured either physically or mentally. And so that's, you know, they're talking about 33 alive in that category. But there are other categories of men of fighting age, which is up till the age of 50, and men soldiers. And so there's more than 33, and it's just hard for us to realize that because we hear a number and then we assume worst case scenario. So that's another great example where we need to be, there is room for more optimism to realize that there are a whole bunch of hostages that are still alive, and we need to do everything possible to bring them back, and we need have hope and and trust them and and their coping abilities to be able to to get through this

so glenn what one point there soon after october 7th a member of the war cabinet had said to me and i've heard a version of this from senior members of the inyrgyz in the defense ministry, that their operating assumption, they, meaning the war cabinet and the security establishment, was that both they and Hamas had an interest in keeping as many hostages alive as possible. That was the one area where their interests were aligned, obviously for very different reasons, but that they assumed that Hamas wouldn't want these hostages dead. Exactly. And again, that's the difference between the 7th of October is the same goal as captivity.

And yeah, in captivity, they have an interest to have bargaining chips, live bargaining chips because they know how much we value Jewish lives and how we will do so much and pay very high prices to bring them back. And so for sure, that is the assumption, that there is an interest to keep them alive and not to massacre the hostages. One thing Rachel said in that speech was, there's one question she asks, basically, that really got me as a parent, where she paints this picture of tucking your kids in bed at night, before they go to sleep, kissing them goodnight. And the child basically asking, I forget exactly how she frames it, but basically asking,

if they come take me away in the middle of the night, will you come get me? And it's obvious why she poses that question. And it's very powerful. Based on the hostages you debriefed, did they think Israel was going to come get them? And the come get them could mean anything. It could be a military operation. It could mean a negotiation, which had a, you know, a massive trade, you know, in their minds, it could have been something like the deal for Gilad Shalit in 2011, where one Israeli return was returned for 1,027 Palestinians released from Israeli prisons. I mean, did these Israeli hostages believe Israel was going to come for them?

Or did some worry that Israel was just, was in a new era and they were going to not come for them or not give up? Well, so that's part of, you know, the whole way that the hostages coped. And there's so many examples of their coping mechanisms. What I saw across the board is that one of the most important coping mechanisms was their belief. What's really interesting to see is that despite what happened on October 7th, and we saw, of course, the colossal failure of the IDF and the whole security establishment to actually protect them. Of course, there was a huge crack in their armor and in their beliefs, but even so, despite that, across the board, the hostages believed that they would be released.

And either there were some who believed in God, that God would save them. Even seculars, that was interesting to see, secular people who became much more religious there. And like they say, there are no atheists in the foxholes. And there was that belief. But most of them actually maintained the belief in the idea and in the country in those Jewish values that Rachel Goldberg talked about. And she talked about being holy. And that is so much about what our Jewish values that Rachel Goldberg talked about, and she talked about being holy, and that is so much about what our Jewish values are about. The redeeming captives is the number one most important mitzvah and commandment,

according to Maimonides and the Rambam. And they believed in that, in that DNA and that contract that every Israeli has with Israel, with the state of Israel, that we will bring our boys and girls back home. And they believed in it. And it was interesting to see that. A lot of them said, oh yeah, two or three days, we'll be out of here for sure. And then when they saw that few days pass and they said, hmm, you know what? Maybe we need to realign and readjust our belief

not to be too optimistic. And they said, you know what? So they said 60 days. And sure enough, those who thought that they got out after 60 days, but they believed it. And there was some other 70-year-old boy who said, okay, what do I know about captivity? Who was in captivity? Gilad Sharif. How long? Five years. Okay, I'm in for five years. One day earlier, it's a bonus. Imagine the mindset of a 70-year-old kid to be able to say that. He said, okay, I'm ready to be in here for five years. And eventually, I'll be just like Gilad Sharif was eventually brought out. I'll be brought out. But he was ready to go the long haul. That was really interesting to see that they all, to one degree or another,

maintained that belief, even though there was a lot of pressure from the Hamas. They tried to brainwash them. It wasn't too hard to brainwash them, to tell them that the country isn't going to come get you and doesn't care and is not capable because of what happened on October 7th. But despite that, those attempts, the hostages, most of them maintained that belief. It doesn't mean that they weren't angry or furious. a lot of the hostages were very, very angry and rightfully so about the sense of being abandoned and not being protected on the 7th of October. But despite that anger, they still maintain that belief. And I think it shows resilience because they managed to regulate their emotions

and to have the proper mindset to enable them to actually survive the captivity and to cope. Again, I know there's not a all-encompassing universal answer to this question. Different hostages dealt in different ways. But is your sense that based on your debriefing of them that they were able to keep track of time? I've often wondered that. How does one in captivity keep track of time? First of often wondered that. How does one in captivity keep track of time? First of all, what's amazing is that these are civilian hostages. And I heard 112 stories of civilian hostages who came back. And I'm an expert in captivity, an expert in POW training. And I know how and what we teach our soldiers how to deal with POW situations. And what was amazing is that these civilians, without having prior training, they had the intuition and the ingenuity and the

resilience to do almost exactly what we teach our top commandos what to do in captivity, which is incredible in my mind. And it shows what resilience inherently we have. Even an 80-year-old woman from a kibbutz, they have this incredible resilience. And in that category, as far as how to tell time, that's one of the things that's part of a larger issue of captivity, which is a sense of control and a sense of helplessness and hopelessness and who is in control of the situation. And that's what turns captivity situation into a very and one of the most traumatic situations because you have a sense of helplessness and a lack of control. So the mission of somebody who is in captivity, whether it's a soldier or a civilian, is to find a way to maintain control.

And one of those ways to maintain control is a sense of orientation, to understand your whereabouts, where you are, what time of day it is. And so many of them found really ingenious ways to keep track of time. And one of them was a teenager, a teenage boy who was given three dates a day, and he saved the pits every day. He put aside three pits, and day by day, three pits. And we had to know how to divide, but he kept track of the days according to the pits, which is amazing. And there were other people who were in tune with the... The ones who were held above ground heard the Mawazin calling to prayer five times a day and and they got used to that routine

and knew you know more or less what time of day it was there was an elderly woman who who had a small she was held in an apartment on her own and she had a small stool that she was given to and and she every day she would scratch another scratch on the on the bamboo of the stool and she kept track day by day, scratch by scratch, until at a certain stage after about 40 days, even her captors asked her how many days have gone by already? She was more in control of the sense of time than her captors. Imagine what that means.

So there were many examples of that, not just of keeping track of time in order to maintain control, but also how to have these little victories. That's what we call it when we train our commandos for POW training. We use that term, little victories, because you can't have a big victory in that situation because they're controlling what you eat, when you eat, when you're going to go to the bathroom. But you can have these little victories, for example, just even to make fun of the captor. And this is something that there were kids who came back from captivity now and told us that they would make fun of the captors, not to their faces, but behind their backs. They would call them names like the fat one, the liar, the disgusting one. And that way they'd feel, okay, that's my little victory. I'm able to have the upper hand and to make fun of these. These small little victories go a long way.

We hear the term Stockholm Syndrome all the time. For those who actually don't know the technical definition of it, can you provide it, A, briefly, and then B, how prevalent was it among the hostages that you debriefed? Yeah. So that's another really important myth that needs to be debunked because first of all, it's hard for people to realize that in captivity there's also something interpersonal that goes on. Stockholm Syndrome, the term was coined after a 1973 bank robbery in Stockholm where a robber held four captives in a vault for a few days. And one of the hostages actually fell in love with the robber.

And after that, it was coined Stockholm Syndrome, if a hostage will develop positive feelings towards the captor. And over the years, that syndrome, it's not an official syndrome. It's not recognized by psychiatric DSM as a disorder. And the FBI has done research, and out of 1,200 hostages that they researched, about 6% of them had symptoms from Stockholm syndrome. And the symptoms can be either having positive emotions towards your captor or negative emotions towards the authorities who were in charge of rescuing

you. And so that's something that it's hard for us to wrap our heads around that when we think about the Hamas and all the atrocities. But I can say there is a lot of bonding. It's called trauma bonding. And it's a psychological phenomenon that we saw quite a bit of it. And it is something that's part of the dynamic of being in captivity. And so much so that even when I train people for POW training, I'll reframe the situation. And I will call it, captivity is an extremely stressful interpersonal situation. And it's hard for people to wrap their heads around that sometimes. But once you see it as an interpersonal situation, even if we are rightfully so-called Hamas terrorists, they're animals and monsters, but they still are human beings from the point of view that we have

the ability to influence them. And that's the good news about it, not to turn them into humane people, but to realize that we can influence them. And so the people who had the ability to form a relationship with their captors, that was a coping mechanism, just like Stockholm Syndrome or Stockholm symptoms are a healthy psychological coping mechanism. Instead of perceiving your captor as a demon, as a monster who's going to kill you, you can perceive him as a person who's going to take care of you. And therefore, that gives you more hope and gives you more strength and resilience to actually cope

with a situation. So it's actually, it's not something that, God forbid, if and when we hear stories like that, we should not be critical about it. But the opposite, to be empathic and to understand that it's a coping mechanism. And actually, there were many, many cases of hostages who managed to see this situation as an interpersonal situation, and they took advantage of that and they managed to influence their captors. There were cases, for example, somebody, an elderly woman said to the guards, put your guns down, you're scaring the children.

And they listened to her and they agreed. Or another woman said, I have a cardiac condition. Let me get some exercise. And they let her walk down the corridors of the tunnel. And as she's walking down, she took a bit of a tour. And she saw behind bars, she saw two men, two other hostages. And she came back and convinced her captors to reunite those two men with them as a group. There was another woman who even convinced her captors to, she said, I got to have a smoke.

I can't go by without smoking. And they went out and they bought her cigarettes. And there were many, many situations like that where there was an actual uh there was a type of bonding going on where between the captor and the and the captives and it sounds uh it sounds strange to a lot of us but that's it's part of the dynamic and it's a it was an important way uh for them to cope and and it's good that they they were able to take advantage of that and to use their emotional intelligence to actually bond with them. It sounds like it goes both ways because there's, you know, the opposite of Stockholm syndrome is Lima syndrome. Can you explain what Lima syndrome is? Yeah. Lima syndrome is when the captor

has positive feelings towards the captives and now it's uh coined after uh the there was a hostage situation in the japanese embassy in uh in lima and uh the the captors gave preferential treatment to some of the hostages and so it definitely goes both both ways and that's i mean sometimes i don't want to i want to be clear i'm not suggesting that it always went both ways but i'm just saying they're based on you're saying, there were probably examples where it went both ways. Yeah, it's definitely, there's potential for that in captivity. There's potential for bonding in both directions. And we definitely saw some cases like that also where you asked also regarding medical treatment,

and there were some cases where we felt that the care was actually better because of a doctor feeling more sentiments towards the hostage and tried really to take a bitter care. Or even just small gestures that we saw that some of the captors agreed to help some of the hostages and some of them helped to pass notes between the hostages. And there definitely were a few examples of that. So it just shows that it's a much more complex situation than we actually imagined. There's a lot going on there. There is a lot of interpersonal interaction and dynamic. There is bonding.

And so much so that even when I met one family who came back and it was very hard for the family members to hear the way she was describing because she was saying, yeah, we actually were treated pretty well and they treated my child pretty well. And so it was hard for family members to hear this, but again, it's something that we have to see, not in a clinical way, but to understand the context, and that was a healthy coping mechanism. And of course, as time goes by, it passes, and one of the things and this is something there is room for optimism for all the families of hostages we there is a correlation between

the the bonding between the captor and captive and and symptoms of Stockholm syndrome, there's a direct correlation between the amount of time that you're in captivity and the relationship that is bonded. Because as time goes by, there's just more time to bond and to have interaction. And so that is something that I would assume as the more time that goes by, the more bonding there is between the hostages and their captors. And so I think that's something that to a certain degree, we can draw some optimism about that, that the chances of them bonding and being treated better as far as the dynamic between them, the chances are high. As opposed to

time being against us in other areas, as far as physical fatigue and also mentally to be under the stress for so long and medical care, of course, that clearly, especially for elderly people, their situation will definitely deteriorate as time goes by. But the aspect of the interpersonal interaction and the bonding is something that most probably will improve as time goes by. Glenn, I want to close by reflecting again on Rachel's speech. She explicitly says that the decision to do everything possible to get the hostages back is, she says, by any practical measure, an irrational decision.

But it's an irrational decision that we need to make based on the Jewish value of pideon shvuim, which I guess translates to redemption of the hostages, that that's the ultimate Jewish value. That's the priority. You talked about this earlier. And that is an expression of what makes us, the Jewish people, different. And that if we don't do that, we start to chip away at what makes us different. And that is the ultimate compromise of the holiness and the difference and the distinction of the Jewish people. Again, she's far more eloquent than I am. I'm just trying to

summarize it. What was your reaction to that part of her speech and that interpretation? First of all, her speech was a masterpiece and very moving and compelling and I completely agree. And that is what we need to do. We need to do everything possible. And I can say that I work with the top units over the years doing resilience work with them. There have been already a few rescue operations and I work with those guys and they are willing to give their lives to bring back hostages and they are out there risking their lives to do that. There are people who have been critically injured in those attempts, and there are ongoing

attempts. And this is what differentiates the idea from other armies. And not just that, not just do we sanctify life and we'll do everything possible to bring back our live hostages, but even for a dead body. And just recently now, seven bodies were brought back. That is something that differentiates us. I've heard from other, I've met top Delta forces and the Navy SEALs and heard from CIA officials. They speak about us, the IDF and our values and the Mossad. They speak of us in awe as far as our value system and how much we are willing to do and what lengths we are willing to go in order to bring our boys and girls back home. And so even if it's a dead body, and the idea of including my son's team

were also part of one of those operations to bring back a body. And they said that that was the highlight of their career. Just like I worked with the top commandos who actually brought the hostages into Israel from the Red Cross in Gaza. And these are our toughest commandos and they describe that as the most exciting, meaningful mission that they've ever done and they are

still willing to do that and that's what's driving them and we need still willing to do that. And that's what's driving them. And we need to continue to do as much as possible, whether it's rescuing them, whether it's putting pressure to have another deal. And I am hopeful that there will be a deal and the hostages will come back to the families, God willing, as soon as possible. And we had Haviv Retigur on the podcast a few weeks ago in an episode called Israel's Sophie's Choice, as it relates to the hostage negotiations.

And he said something along the lines of the dilemma for Israel and Israel's leaders is what to be done to bring home the hostages whose names and faces we know, and what to be done for the hostages whose names and faces we don't yet know, who may very well be taken hostage in the future because Israel's enemies know how valuable hostages are to Israelis and the lengths Israel will go to return them. And he framed it in a way that the two were in contention with one another. How do you react to that? Yeah, well, that's always been our strength and our weakness. And it's definitely what differentiates us. And I call it our, the secret sauce of the IDF. And that contributes directly to the morale of our troops, knowing that the country will do as much as possible to bring them home. I still had myself training our soldiers when there was only Ron Arad, the downed airman, when he was in captivity and hadn't been brought back.

He still hasn't been brought back, unfortunately. That was hard for people to deal with, but during those five years when Gilad Shalit was also in captivity and wasn't brought back, I heard from many, many soldiers who started saying, okay, you guys keep saying, yes, the country and the army will do everything possible to bring us back. They started to bring that home. And that goes a long way as far as the morale of the soldiers and their willingness to enter into enemy territory and to risk their lives and to risk being in captivity, knowing that everything will be done to bring them back. And of course, there is a price, and that is our weakness. As far as the numbers, at least I can say that for Givat Shalit, over 1,000 were returned.

Of course, that is a huge price. It's clear to everyone now that for 250, we're not going to be releasing 1,000 for everyone. And the numbers are smaller. But I think that that is, at the end of the day, I can definitely say that I saw how that contributes to the morale of our forces. And at the end of the day, that's what's going to help us win the war when we have the high morale. Glenn, we are grateful for your time and your perspective. And you're just helping, I think, a lot of us process so many of these issues that if when left to our own devices, our minds start wandering in highly speculative directions. And so I just think you've given at least me and

the conversations we've had before this a lot to think about. And I think our listeners now can get a sense for how to think about some of these issues, which are still horrible and like I said, unimaginable, but at least we have a little more perspective based on the experience you've had spending time with the 105. I guess you say 112 now? Yeah. Hostages you've debriefed. So thank you. Pleasure.

Thank you. And hoping that, God willing, soon we'll have the rest of the hostages back home. That's our show for today. Call Me Back is produced and edited by Ilan Benatar. Our media manager is Rebecca Strom. Additional editing by Martin Huergo. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Senor. Call Me Back.