Calm Parenting Podcast - Do Adopted Kids Struggle More? Part #1 #460
Episode Date: March 21, 2025Do Adopted Kids Struggle More? Part #1 #460 Parents often believe if you adopt a child from birth and provide a loving home, that will mitigate most issues. It doesn’t usually work that way. There i...s no judgment here. Just the reality that trauma triggers different issues. That can manifest in kids with an insatiable craving for intensity, sensory pressure, connection, food, and things. Adoptive parents should not feel guilty or alone when their kids struggle. Please share this with support groups and other adoptive parents who need both encouragement and practical tools to help the kids they love so much. Our Black Friday in March Sale Ends This Weekend! Visit https://celebratecalm.com/black-friday/ to get the lowest prices of the year and hundreds of practical strategies that really work with your strong-willed kids. AG1 AG1 is offering new subscribers a FREE $76 gift when you sign up. You’ll get a Welcome Kit, a bottle of D3 & K2 AND 5 free travel packs in your first box. Go to https://drinkag1.com/calm HAPPY MAMMOTH Get 15% off on your entire first order at https://HappyMammoth.com with the code CALM at checkout. ONE SKIN Go to https://oneskin.co and use code KIRK at checkout for an exclusive 15% off your first purchase. COZY EARTH Wrap yourself and your kids in Cozy Earth luxury…with 40% OFF! Visit https://cozyearth.com/ and use my exclusive 40% off code CALM. HUNGRYROOT Get 40% off your first box PLUS get a free item in every box for life. Go to https://hungryroot.com/ and use code CALM. IXL LEARNING Get an exclusive 20% off an IXL membership when you sign up today at https://IXL.com/KIRK. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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So I remember the exact moment 20 years ago when it hit me that our adopted kids
often have more intense needs than other kids.
I was roughhousing with this boy named Alexander.
He'd been adopted from Russia. And it seemed like all the Russianhousing with this boy named Alexander. He'd been adopted from Russia.
And it seemed like all the Russian kids we worked with were named Alexander.
He was this fiery little guy who craved sensory pressure, attention, affirmation, and things.
Especially anything other kids had that he didn't.
We were wrestling out on the lawn when my knee accidentally hit him in the head.
And I noticed a switch flipped in his eyes, his face turned red.
There was rage, shame, betrayal, anger.
It's kind of like he'd been disrespected.
And he put his head down as if he were a bull about to charge me.
And we were just learning a lot kind of on the job.
It was 2005, we were hosting our
Legos camps at our home.
We noticed look we had noticed so
many of the kids that I like to
term our kids right now includes
a wide range of kids with 80 D ADHD,
ASD, OCD, ODD, anxiety,
sensory attachment issues.
Some kids were adopted, some not.
We noticed these kids often didn't
respond well
in a therapeutic office one on one,
and they wouldn't or couldn't attend regular camps,
but most of them loved building with Lego blocks,
so we did something kind of odd,
and we opened up our town home in Northern Virginia.
The kids had no idea we were doing a form of play therapy. They would
just come and build and create together and then obviously argue and boss each other and throw
tantrums and meltdown. But it was all in real time in real life situations so we had an opportunity
to teach them new skills in the moment. Look we love these kids. It wasn't even a business or a plan yet.
It was just kind of a heartfelt response
to parents and kids who felt alone,
felt judged, felt helpless at times.
We were a safe place parents could drop their kids
without having to explain or make excuses
or wonder when they'd be getting a call
to come pick up their child.
Because in 10 years with over 1,500 kids, we never had to send a kid home.
So here I was in this tense moment with this boy I called Alexander the Great.
Because great was his spirit and great was his strength and
great was his big heart.
But great was his pain and longing and frustration.
And now he's got tears running down his face, not because I physically hurt him,
but because his pride was hurt and he had a lot of pain and confused feelings inside.
So he put his head down to charge right into my gut.
That's all he knew to do.
And I didn't know what to do.
And my first thought was what we all wanna say.
Hey Alexander, calm down, it's okay. I didn't mean to do that.
I'm sorry. Let's go get a snack. But for some reason I just blurted out with
intensity and forgive me for the reference to the crude language here, but
it is important to be intense with these kids. Alexander, you should be really
PO'd at me. I'm angry at myself for hurting you." I said it with intensity
while he rushed me and I didn't stop him. I knew he needed that sensory input but then I said in
a commanding tone, come with me I've got an idea and I stomped away like I was angry at myself
and I burst through our front door with Alexander behind me and all the other kids were on the floor of building and they looked up and said
what's wrong and I said I hurt Alexander and we're going to do something about it
and I kept marching and I didn't know what I was going to do and my wife saw
us and gave me that look of like what's going on and I just walked in and I
threw open the refrigerator I grabbed a carton of eggs from back when you could afford them.
And I told Alexander, let's go.
He followed me outside to the spot where he'd been hurt.
And I said, the first six eggs, I want you to throw as hard as you can against my house.
Now, it was brick, so I knew it wouldn't really hurt it.
And I said, make those eggs splatter everywhere. Make the biggest mess you can. So we actually both threw eggs at the
house and I actually yelled at one point, I'm so angry at myself for hurting you.
And then I stepped about 10 yards away and I said okay throw a few at me. You
can throw them as hard as you can. And we were still kind of in this both intense situation here.
Now, I was younger, I was a little bit more agile then,
and I knew I could kind of let the eggs hit me without hurting too much.
So he grabs one, throws it, it misses.
And then the second one, I let it hit me in the arm and it splattered pretty hard.
And watch what happens at that.
Little Alexander the Great, this was a really
cool kid. He threw the rest of the eggs at the ground and he said, can we just
wrestle again? And I nearly began bawling because he didn't want to hurt me. He
just needed a way to process all these feelings. And that's when I learned
several really important lessons
and make some big changes to our camps. I created an obstacle course in the
backyard and in our basement with things kids had to crawl under, climb over, pull
and push. I hooked up a rope to some weights like they do at the gym in the
backyard. I bought 10 bags of mulch and dirt and a few shovels and some plants
so kids could randomly help me
do yard work. I began greeting kids every morning with a task they were good at doing. I'd give them
an envelope and it had a special mission in it to find something, do some heavy work, complete a
mission. So our first activity was a sensory win. It gave them a sense of accomplishment.
And I could say, man, killer job doing that. And look, it was exhausting. And it is going to be
exhausting for you. It already is. But we learn to proactively meet a lot of these needs for
intensity and sensory pressure ahead of time. And it didn't
change everything. It won't always make things all better, but we made progress
and that's our goal. So over the course of this in the next over two podcast
episodes, I want to discuss adoption in greater detail. I do hope you find the
insights and strategies helpful whether you have an adopted
child or if you're considering adopting. And to be honest, if you're even considering having a child
or if you already have kids, you're going to find this helpful. So welcome. I know this is a little
different from my normal thing, but this is Kirk Martin, founder of Celebrate Calm. You can find us
at CelebrateCalm.com. So I know this can be a sensitive topic,
so let me be clear. I am pro adoption. Two of my favorite people in the world are in our family.
They are adopted. I have donated time and money to adoption agencies.
I've conducted training for and answered emails from countless adoptive parents over the past two decades.
So here are some caveats.
Not all adopted kids and families experience everything
I will say in this podcast. I am only relating my own experience over the past 25 years and common
patterns I have noticed. Your experience may differ. Each child and family is different
and this is in no way exhaustive. My intention is to share what we have had, what we have experienced with these following
purposes.
I want you to understand the underlying dynamics at play and what your adopted child may experience.
I want to help parents who are considering adoption.
I want to help you go in with your eyes wide open and have appropriate expectations because
it is usually far more difficult
than people are led to believe and I think that's wrong to not prepare
people. I want to relieve any guilt and I want to reassure parents, grandparents,
guardians and caregivers who have adopted kids and who feel alone, exhausted
and helpless like you're doing something wrong. You're not. It's just hard. I want to help parents reset your expectations of yourself, your
adopted child, and maybe your biological kids. And then I want to provide specific
strategies to help with various behavior issues that tend to be common with our
adopted kids. And I'm going to answer specific questions
during a helpful Q&A,
including how to help kids
who have a seemingly insatiable need for love,
stuff, food, attention,
who get jealous of siblings getting any attention,
because that's very common as well.
Please know, there is no blame, no guilt,
no negativity intended here.
I am trying to say some things that don't usually get said
because that can be healing when you hear that.
I did, I recorded an Instagram video a few weeks ago
and I was really nervous about putting it out there,
but the feedback was really good.
So I decided to devote a couple episodes this.
So here's some main points we're going to discuss.
Adopted kids tend to have more intense behavioral issues than other kids.
Just tend to, not always.
One of the most common emails we get is, well, we adopted our child from birth.
And there's this assumption that that will make some huge difference.
And yet, it usually doesn't matter.
And we'll find out why.
Whenever we get emails talking about kids stealing, lying, maybe manipulating,
we always ask first, hey, was your child adopted?
Now, that does not mean that all adopted kids steal and lie,
nor does it mean that the only kids
who steal and lie are adopted.
Most of the kids that we work with do that,
but it is a common enough pattern
we've recognized with our adopted kids.
So I will address that in detail
because I'm gonna give you a preview here.
Oftentimes parents are like, well, we need them to learn to make a different choice.
For your adopted kids, sometimes the stealing, it's not really a rational choice.
It is a compulsion.
They are compelled to do it.
And that's why a consequence just won't work because you have to get to the underlying need.
Now, another myth parents are led to believe is,
well if you just love this child enough you'll be able to mitigate the issues.
It doesn't work that way and I know that sounds cold but I don't want to lie to you
because so many parents go into it with such great motives of like,
oh we were there from birth and we're gonna love this child.
And yet it causes significant strain.
And it's hard because adopting a child,
it will probably strain your finances,
your marriage and your family.
And you have to be prepared for that.
It's hard.
And you'll often feel guilty, judged and bad
about not being able to get a breakthrough.
So I'm gonna break this up
into two episodes. They're probably gonna be longer than my normal ones, but I don't want to
shortcut anything here. So let's dive in. I wanted to begin with some statements from parents who
have been through the process because I think it provides a unique window that you may be able to
relate to. Mom says, we adopted our child at three months old.
So not only did she experience trauma in the womb, but
the pain of separation from her first mother as an infant.
We've learned so much about how the brain and nervous system develop in infancy.
And so along with that comes hypervigilance, anxiety, fear of being alone,
rejection sensitivity, sensory seeking behaviors,
emotional outbursts. All of these come from a dysregulated nervous system and
it's our daily constant work and I want you to notice that word constant work to
help her feel safe. We didn't understand any of this when we first became parents.
I wish there were more awareness and training for prospective adoptive parents.
And that's why I'm doing this podcast.
Not that it's the best thing or enough, but it's a start.
Another parent.
Adoption is frequently presented as a happy ending, but it's far more complex than that.
There's often an unspoken expectation
that adopted children should feel grateful
for being given a home.
And by the way, I've heard that from countless kids
over the years who said,
there was always this unspoken pressure
that I should just be grateful.
And it put all this pressure on me.
By the way, I'll just say this too.
There's often pressure of like, if two parents, and I've had this pressure on me. By the way, I'll just say this too, there's often pressure of like,
if two parents, and I've had this in our extended family,
if two, if mom and dad couldn't have children,
well now this child becomes the object
of all of that work and hope and expectation.
Well, that's a lot and it's good to be aware of that.
So this can create a sense of internal conflict for the child,
especially if they're also grappling with feelings of loss, confusion, or
struggles with identity and belonging. These feelings don't always fit into the
idealized image of adoption. As a result, they often get ignored or minimized in
conversations about adoption. It can feel like because a child is adopted into a
loving family, any pain or difficulty they experience must be temporary or
even unimportant. I thought that was really well said by that parent who had been an adopted child.
So let's first try to understand this from the perspective of the child,
knowing that every child's experience is going to be different.
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So when we get those emails from parents saying, oh, we adopted him or her from birth, behind
that phrase is the hope that that will make things different.
After all, we were right there at the birth of the child.
And surely that's helpful and good.
What we often miss is what happened during the previous nine months of development in
the womb.
And every experience is different.
But let's use some common sense here and make some
assumptions. While adopting a child is a joyful experience and also very hard, carrying a child
in your womb and then giving that child to someone else must necessarily be traumatic on varying
levels. And I think it's safe to assume that in many, not all cases, the birth mother will have conflicting emotions
such as guilt and regret and hope.
She may not have had a supportive husband or partner or parents by her side.
She may be economically distressed, and that's usually correlated with worse health outcomes
and insufficient prenatal care. In the worst situations, she may be
subject to abuse by the baby's father or she may engage in more risky behaviors like
drug or alcohol abuse, smoking, etc. If the birth mother is experiencing violence, trauma,
depression, anxiety, or other mental health issues, well this will impact the baby in
the womb.
Again, there's no judgment here.
This birth mom may just be the most courageous,
loving human you've ever met.
That doesn't negate issues that will arise.
We're trying to be honest that this isn't usually
a happy and hopeful nine months of celebration
and healthy self-care in a supportive
environment in most situations. And I'm not here to try to prove some point. I
just want to say the child that you adopted, even if you were there to cut
the umbilical cord, probably experienced some measure of trauma in the womb. I
don't think that's a controversial statement. Let's even assume
that was not the case. Well, we still have to consider common feelings
associated with being separated at birth from your mother, especially since
attachments start, attachment starts forming in the womb. And this early
trauma can lead to difficulties in forming healthy attachments, regulating emotions,
and coping with stress.
Look, you know much of this, but many, not all, but many adopted kids mention struggling
with feelings of loss, abandonment, rejection, and identity issues.
It's normal and natural for them to ask, why didn't my mom or dad want me?
What was wrong with me?
Why didn't the biological grandparents or uncles and aunts, why didn't my mom or dad want me? What was wrong with me? Why didn't the biological grandparents or uncles and aunts,
why didn't they step in?
Why did my family reject me and give me away to strangers?
How do I know my new family won't give up on me?
Does my father even know I exist?
There could be shame around that pregnancy
from rape or infidelity.
They might feel different if they're adopted
from a different culture, race, or nation.
Look, there are dozens of questions like these and I want you to normalize and encourage your
adopted child to feel free to ask those questions because that's healthy and don't be defensive
about that. They need to ask those questions. So this may or may not be relevant, but I've done this thought experiment on a few occasions
and I encourage you to do the same.
Look, I'm one of four brothers and we're fairly close.
Both of our parents are gone,
so it's just the four of us boys.
And we have pretty much daily interactions
on this text thread as brothers.
And I'm a reasonably content, happy guy
with pretty secure attachments in life,
but I imagined how would I react if I discovered today
that I had been adopted.
And here's what I immediately felt inside.
I would instantly feel separation from my three brothers,
like I'm not really one of them.
I would not feel on equal footing with them, as if I'm a little less than and
not really in the family, even though I've spent my entire life with them.
I would begin to question and wonder why nobody told me before.
Hey, who is my mom and my dad?
How am I like them?
What did they look like?
Why didn't they want to raise me?
Did they ever try to contact me or meet me? Did they, did I actually ever meet them and not know
it? Did they have other kids? Do I have step siblings out there? Are they still alive? Have
my mom and dad ever wondered about me or what my life has been like? Would my dad be proud of me?
What traits did I get from my mom, from my
dad? I would question whether my three brothers would really be by my side when things get
tough, given that I'm not a blood brother. Would they abandon me too? How would my life
have been different with my biological mom and dad and grandparents. Even as a grown man, this would be really hard.
Again, that's just me, but I can imagine kids would have similar questions and more.
And there's one more conflicting emotion that we kind of talked about earlier, which is that pressure
to feel grateful that they were rescued or saved or chosen. It's subtle, but it's real. So
let's consider what many adoptive parents have experienced. And I feel for
adoptive parents because I'm very close to several in my family. And in some
cases, family members could not have children themselves and decided to
adopt. In some cases, there is a religious conviction behind it that they
were doing something noble and good.
And these can be very powerful motivators, but they can also set up unrealistic expectations
of the child, the experience, and the parents.
Sometimes a narrative develops that the adoptive parents are heroes rescuing a child who is
not wanted.
And that sets in motion many psychological complications.
The child can be seen as the miracle baby or is given by God,
which automatically carries additional pressure on the child to fulfill this mission.
It can also create a dynamic in which people think, well, if God called us to do this, it has to turn out well.
And I've had people tell me later, we used to frame
it as being led by God, but we were actually just being led by our own desires and need
to have a child to feel complete. It's a real thing. Again, I don't do blame or guilt. I
just want us to be aware of things that can complicate this this and so that hero narrative can also create an expectation that the
child should not act out since they were chosen and rescued just be aware of it now a common myth
i mentioned before that gets uttered a lot is well we'll just give this child so much love it heals
them and i love the sentiment but it's not enough some issues are just deeper
Parents have adopted kids especially kids with attachment disorders can often find themselves feeling very isolated and
misunderstood because
sometimes these kids are able to present a very different positive healthy image to
outsiders at school but then be destructive
at home and threaten their parents. I've worked with parents who have had to hide all the knives
and sharp objects in the home to lock their bedroom door at night. I'm not trying to induce
fear. I want you to know these things happen. They are not isolated and they can happen in really
good homes with really good parents. Other people simply don't believe the child they know could be
like that. So it becomes a very lonely place to be after you've had especially after you've had so
much hope bring this child home and you've sacrifice so much for them and then you feel guilty for
Regretting that you ever adopted that child. That's a real feeling
That's a normal feeling to have when you have been through this and I know some may bristle at that
But it's a genuine struggle for many people
but it's a genuine struggle for many people. Many people do not understand the strain this places on families who spend inordinate amounts of money on therapy
and whose marriages are torn apart. Sometimes the family, including the
biological children, sometimes the family is destroyed. Just know that going in.
Again, not fear, eyes wide open.
I do not want you feeling guilty because you are struggling. In many cases, adoption agencies
are not completely forthright about the challenges that come with adoption. I am not knocking
them, but they have a vested interest in getting kids adopted, and so it's wrong to not prepare parents. And if that
has been your experience, I encourage you to tell them so that they can do a better job preparing
future families for this journey. So if you are considering adopting a child or you know what most
of this is just if you're considering just having a child,
it would be helpful to go in being prepared. So I encourage you to do the following.
Definitely do your research. Talk to other parents who have adopted. Go in with realistic
expectations of yourself and your kids. Two, make sure your marriage is strong and healthy before you adopt. Raising
children of any kind will stress your marriage. We talk all the time about our
kids strong will kids. Of course that's gonna stress. And then when you have kids
who have trauma, well that's going to be even harder at times. So I would have
very open and honest discussions about
questions like this. Hey, how are you? How are we going to respond when your child
lies and steals? Has emotional meltdowns? When we get calls from the
school about persistent behavior issues, talk through those issues about how you were raised as a child. What parent, what
form of discipline did your parents use? How are you going to break certain patterns? Get on the
same page. All prospective parents should have these discussions. I would set aside extra money
for additional unexpected therapy. I am not being flippant. I'm not
being dramatic. It's reality. I am talking about possibly tens of thousands of
dollars and if you don't end up using it good that's a win. That can be put
toward college or other things but know that you're probably going to have to
get additional therapy that you
didn't count on.
And I would ask tough questions of yourselves.
Are we trying to fill a void in our marriage by adopting this child?
Are we hoping this child brings us closer together?
Is God really leading us or is this our own emotions compelling us?
Look, sometimes we bring God into things so no
one can question us or our motives. Just be aware of that. Do you both equally
want to adopt? Because what often happens is when things get
difficult, one spouse blames the one who wanted it more. This is your fault. I told
you I didn't want to do this, and then divorce happens
and that's just brutal.
You know, it's just know it's going to be hard and possibly harder than you can imagine.
I'm not trying to scare you and that doesn't always happen.
There are plenty of great stories where it doesn't happen, but it's frequent enough that
you should at least be prepared.
So let's talk about what you can do proactively if you already have an adopted child who is
struggling.
So what if you're experiencing issues?
Let me answer a couple quick questions now.
Then we will devote the entire next episode a week from today to answering questions from
adoptive parents and giving specific strategies.
So here's a question. Our adopted son never feels like he's good enough, constantly compares himself.
How can we help? Look, this advice is good for all of our kids, but number one, let's focus this next
week on creating successes. Create them. Put your child in a position to be successful, to complete
missions that they're already good at doing, and then put a lot more energy into affirming
for good behavior than just correcting for bad.
We'll find out in the next episode.
Our kids crave intensity and what they learn early on is the quickest way for me to get
intensity from a parent or a
teacher is to do something wrong.
And your kids who are in foster care, kids who were in orphanages, man a lot of those
kids they learn that early on.
And what they do is their brain associates intensity with connection, but they've been
fed sometimes it's, I only get my
parents and my teachers, they only give me intensity when I do something wrong. So, I really
want to put energy into turning that around. So, what are some missions, specific jobs to do
that your child will succeed at doing? Oh man, I could really use your help doing X. I want to
find a lot of things to say yes to within your boundaries.
Remember whenever you say no to something inappropriate, say yes to something appropriate.
Give good energy. Oh man, do you really think you can do that? Man, do you think you're
strong enough to do that? I would give your kids challenges. Do treasure hunts. Say things
like bet you can't do X, and then have them complete missions
they're good at doing. Here's a weird but helpful idea. Ask a neighbor to ask your child for help
doing stuff around their house because our kids when they go to other people's houses they tend
to be really good and really helpful and conscientious and it means so much when a stranger says to your
child,
oh man you are super helpful. Hey can you come back one day because I've got a couple other jobs
for you to do. When strangers recognize your gifts and praise you it kind of means more than when
your parents do. And then affirm give positive intensity to the good choices and to progress,
not perfection, lots of fist bumps.
Hey, well done.
That shows me you're growing up.
Hey, really proud of you for how you handle that situation.
Short and sweet, intense.
OK, here's another question.
Since our daughter was little, she has slept kind of hard against the wall.
She's constantly getting in trouble for knocking into other kids at school. Does this
relate to anything? And I think what is happening is your daughter finds reassurance and comfort
in sensory pressure. She craves it. It actually makes her body feel more settled and probably
makes her brain and soul feel more settled. It's connection its warmth, its ordering your body in context of its surroundings.
And I used to, when I trained teachers a lot, I'd say, hey, watch for this.
And this isn't just adopted kids, it's all of our kids with sensory processing needs.
A child comes into the room in the morning and his body or her body is craving physical pressure.
Well, what's gonna happen next? Rumble.
Child's gonna start rumbling with like three or four boys in the back of the classroom.
And then the teacher is going to think, oh, that's an aggressive child.
No, it has nothing to do with aggression.
Usually what it has to do with is my body is craving
physical pressure and the quickest and easiest way to get it, start wrestling some other
kids and you'll see kids pushing up against walls, how they sit on a chair.
Just observe your kids, you'll notice this. So I would begin the day giving
your child sensory exercise and pressure. Give teachers ways to do that.
Do it after school and through, and even through bedtime.
Wake your child up to a treasure hunt,
searching for breakfast or a toy in an obstacle course,
which I would create in your backyard,
in the basement, in the attic, I don't care where.
Let them do physical work outside if they enjoy that.
A lot of our kids love shoveling mulch, shoveling
holes, planting things. I have kids who have really enjoyed pulling weeds
because watch you're pulling and then it makes a sound as it comes out out of the
dirt and you can feel it and you can throw it in a pile and that pile kind of
gets higher and higher. There's a lot of satisfaction in doing those things. Anything that involves climbing, crawling, lifting, pulling, pushing things
appropriately, it can feel very settling. Some kids like being wrapped like a
taco in a blanket. Let them do schoolwork in confined spaces like under
tables. At school, have teachers give your child missions or jobs. Hey, I could
really use your help moving those heavy books
Sweeping is helpful doing wall push-ups at bedtime
Let your kids sleep in a sleeping bag in a tent in a closet
Weighted vest can feel good. You can look up a lot of the stuff online if you look up
Sensory processing just don't get freaked out like oh, this is awful. It's pretty normal.
Rather than playing team sports, our kids tend to do better with individual activities. And by the
way, it's usually individual activities that also happen to provide sensory pressure. So that means
things like rock climbing, martial arts, swimming, gymnastics, ballet, ice hockey, it's team sport but it's
a lot of individuality and it's very very sensory.
Could even be any kind of ice skating.
Anyway, you may find it helpful to schedule an appointment with an OT.
Occupational therapists, they're among my favorite people because they're practical, they're positive,
and they're usually amazing with kids.
So start there.
We're going to dig into a lot of the deeper issues
next week, right?
Those kids that have that thing inside
that feels like you just can't fill it.
If you, and many more questions,
if you found this helpful,
please share this with other parents
and maybe even support groups.
We'd like to help as many parents and kids as possible.
If you're ever interested in our programs,
reach out to Casey,
because we can help you financially.
If you've spent so much money on this,
we wanna help.
So just reach out to Casey.
We'll help you out with that,
because our programs will help with these things.
Thank you. Thank you for working
so hard at this. Moms, dads, guardians, caregivers, grandparents, we have so much respect for you.
Thank you for listening to the podcast, for sharing it with others, and we'll be back same
time next week with part two of the adoption series. Okay, all right. Love you all. Talk soon. Bye-bye.