Calm Parenting Podcast - MEN: How to Stop the Yelling & Power Struggles (Men In The Arena Guest Podcast)

Episode Date: November 3, 2023

MEN: How to Stop the Yelling & Power Struggles Find yourself yelling at your kids? Or repeating your own Dad's angry parenting patterns, the very ones you swore you'd never use? You know you shouldn't yell, but how else can you win power struggles and get through to your defiant kid? In this week's interview, Kirk Martin, host of the Calm Parenting podcast, joined Jim Ramos for another power-packed, tactical episode to equip you to become the calm Dad you know your kids deserve. Kirk is available for Phone Consultations. Click here to learn more. This episode of the Calm Parenting Podcast is brought to you by Hello Fresh. Go to https://www.hellofresh.com and use code 50calm for 50% off plus FREE shipping. A Revolutionary Baby Monitor is Born. Visit www.MasimoStork.com to learn more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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the doer of deeds could have done them better, the credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marked by dust and sweat and blood. Welcome to the Men in the Arena podcast, where we interview specialists in the realm of manhood. Each of our guests is an expert in their chosen field or cause as it relates to men. Our conviction is to call you into the arena of manhood, call you out of the faceless, nameless bleachers, and call you up to be the best version of you. Because when a man gets it, everyone wins. Enjoy today's episode. Men in the Arena Army, we salute you. Hey guys,

thanks for listening to this episode of the Men in the Arena podcast. I'm Jim Ramos, your host and guide, leading you to your best Men in the Arena podcast. I'm Jim Ramos, your host and guide, leading you to your best version in the stress bubble of life and beyond. Welcome to today's episode. Hey guys, before we jump into that episode, we want to share with you an exciting hero story that we received last week. This is hero story number 143 out of 365 that we're collecting this year. This comes from Wilson, and he just said, hey, Jim, I greet you in the name of Jesus. So you got to love it when they address you like the Apostle Paul. He says, I've been listening to this blessed podcast for more than six months now, and it's impacted my life. I'm now becoming a better father, husband, and leader. Thanks for

the great work. So hey, Wilson, hit us up. We want to send you some swag to say thank you. And just we appreciate you being one of our men in the arena. Hey guys, make sure you stay tuned to the end of this episode as we unpack our most recent man law for you. And again, those man laws are found in my book, Man Laws, 101 Ways to Get Your Man Card Revoked and Rules to Live By. You can get that as a free resource when you visit us at meninthearena.org. Hey, guys, I'm super excited today to have our guest on for the second time, Kirk Martin. Kirk lives out in Dregs, Idaho, with his beautiful wife of 33 years, Anita. Kirk is the founder of Celebrate Calm and the Calm Parenting Podcast, teaching over one million parents how to stop yelling, defiance, and power struggles with our most strong-willed children. I can hear some of you saying amen.

Kirk is known for his very practical strategies and scripts delivered with humor and compassion. Learn how to get your kids to listen the first time while building a close, trusting relationship. Kirk, I'm so glad to have you on the show. Jim, this is all, I've been looking forward to this. I'm serious. I cannot tell you how many people, we've had a couple of your videos had over a million views on Instagram and TikTok. I have guys, this seems to be the biggest thing guys struggle with in parenting. You know, the guys that are there and present, the guys that are present, it seems to me that anger and yelling is their number one struggle. What do you find? Yeah, that's it. Well, it's what a lot of us grew up

with, right? Like, I know, I know the right thing to do. My kid's not doing it. And then it's just that natural instinct to go to, Hey, cut it out or else, right. It's just that visceral response. And so the cool thing is though, changing it, you begin to break the generational pattern, right? Like that's it. I broke the pattern I got from my dad. So when you, I want to encourage guys, you can overcome this. Like I was a huge yeller. Like I'm still a really intense person. I have like the calm guy thing, but inside I'm not like that. Like I've got to work at it.

But once you get it, for me, here's what got me, Jim. It just works better. And I talk in even matter of fact tone. And when I don't react, if you don't, I'll share this right before we went on. I was trying to I had this little image in my head of like two buddies out. Like, let's say we're out. We're hanging out. And you give me a hard time and say something. What if I was like, Jim, what are you thinking? What are you saying that for? I can't like we wouldn't be friends. You'd be like, what are you doing? So if you said that something,

you are knocking me for my Yankees hat, like we were talking about a Red Sox hat. I'd be like, dude, I really care. I wouldn't give it energy. So with our buddies, we don't do that. Or they'd be like, what are you? But then we walk through the door of our home and they're like Legos on the floor. And now it's like, who left the Legos on the floor? Right. And then we tell our wife, like, you were home homeschooling all day. Why didn't you get the kids to pick up their stuff? And then it just kind of escalates. And we've all done those things, but it's just interesting. And you have adult children. So do I. And so before we launch into this, first of all, guys, if you haven't done it before, go listen to episode 614 with Kirk Martin. It would probably it the fourth phase of parenting. I entered parenting and it was kind of like, I want to be this father, faithful guy. I want to be available and show up to all my kids' things. Then I turn into this kind of father figure.

As the kids get older, I'm more of an example. I'm present. And then my kids are in their 20s now. So just went to church with my son and his wife yesterday, did a lot of elk hunting with my kids. You know, there's this father-friend role that I'm reaping the benefits of what I call, you know, good enough parenting. And then finally there's the father, you know, forever, which is this legacy role. But here's the revelation I've had, and I haven't talked to you about this, but I want to ask you about this. Because you and I are in similar places in our fathering phases. You know, the angry parent thing, when my kids were little in the hole, because I said so, you know, when my sons were in the home, I, for the most part, I controlled the narrative of our relationship because I had power over them. I was the one paying the bills. I was the one buying the food, you know, my wife and I.

But what I've noticed, Kirk, and I want to have you talk to this, talk to, I want you, hold on, I'm going to rephrase this. And I want you to speak to this. But now that my kids are in their 20s, I've noticed that they control the narrative. So they control whether or not they are going to have a relationship with dad. And a lot of that goes to when they were younger, but then a lot of that goes on how I interact with them now. Because I said so. It didn't work then, and it definitely doesn't work as a father of 20-somethings. What are your thoughts on this whole children controlling the narrative

as they're adults? Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, Casey, our son is 30 and it's very much like that, but what I'm finding is it's the same route that keeps us close and keeps that relationship is that trust, right? It's, it's the trust of your, now that I'm older, like he's going, he's getting married next year. So they'll start having grandkids. If I come in all heavy, like I want time with my grandkids, like controlling again, I'm going to get the big hand my way. So it is interesting, but he does, you know, it's that cats in the cradle song, whatever that one was, right? Like, right. So, but Casey and I are, we fought when he was a kid until he was about nine and a half when I started changing. But now we just have this like awesome kind of adult

friendship where I still get to speak into his life. He still will ask me, he's like, dad, I've got this thing. Because he's got a side job. He works with Celebrate Calm, but he's now managing the largest catering company in Jackson Hole. Whoa. Why? Because he's strong-willed. Because he can handle conflict.

I always joke it's because he created so much conflict as a kid. He's comfortable with conflict. And he's a take charge kid. So all the things that irritated us about him when he was little are the very qualities that helps him kick butt as a young man. But he'll still call and he'll be like, dad, I need your advice on this. What's happening more now is he'll say, Dad, you know what you taught me when I was 12? I'm seeing that that was true. So guys, play the long game with your kids. The strong will kids, all I can tell you is they're horrible as kids. They're not great kids. They don't like childhood. But you are going to reap decades of closeness with them throughout their kind of adult years. And if you do this, right, even if you've messed up so far, we make a change. And you'll find the kids that you fought most with, you'll often bond with even tighter because you've had to kind of rebuild. You've had to wrestle with that relationship,

right? It's kind of like Jacob with that wrestling with God. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. They were tight because they wrestled because it was hard. But yeah, I think I, yeah, Casey, I was telling you before, like Casey sends me a schedule, dad, here's when I'm available to hike with you. I'm like, dude, I've got like every day it's sunny this week. And I'm like, what do you mean you're working another job? Yeah. Well, it's like my son Darby called me this morning, text me 540. Hey dad, we need to talk about a deer hunting trip. So I called him back at 541, you know, cause I was already up reading my Bible. Well, and so it's the same thing. It's like, Hey dad, we need to put this thing in order. We need to plan this thing. But you know, it's really interesting. You said something I thought really applies even to marriage. My wife and I are so

close at 31 years of marriage, and you're at 33, so you're a little bit ahead of me. But a lot of that came from the conflict revolving around marriage. We've had to wrestle through three decades of life together, and that's true. So you made a comment earlier I've never heard before, and I want to go back and just let you unpack it a little more. I know what you're talking about, but I just never heard the phrase, and I thought, that is a great phrase. We're talking about anger. We're talking about yelling. We're talking about a strong-willed child. We're talking about defiance. You mentioned coming in heavy. To me, I'm seeing a C-130 loaded with tanks, right? Talk to me about this phrase, coming in heavy. To me, I'm seeing a C-130 loaded with tanks, right? Talk to me about this phrase,

coming in heavy. I just did a podcast on this. Do you mind if I tell a quick story? Oh, no. Yeah, it's your stage, man. So we're going through this thing on kids with big emotions, big defiance. And there's defiance that comes from your strong-willed child who has anxiety issues, right? He's nervous about going to the new taekwondo class. And he's like, no, I'm not going. And you misinterpret that as defiance and disrespect. And you come in heavy like you're going to get your butt in the car. I paid $165 for that class.

You're going. And we misread it because the kid was just nervous because he's going to a new place and he's probably not great with other kids. And so that's a kind of defiance. And then there was this story and I hope it doesn't offend anybody. Bad word. I won't say it, but I'll allude to it. So it's this father with two sons. And that's partly what I've learned as I've gotten older. What I love about scripture is that there were stories that were told that reflected their culture. And there was always a father with two sons and one is the compliant child and one is the prodigal, the strong-willed child. So there's a real-life family from Minnesota. And there's been a lot of pain between this dad and the strong-willed child because the realities are too much alike.

And that happens with dads a lot. It's not always the kid who's different from you. It's the one who's like, you're going to make the same mistakes I'm going to make, so cut it out. And at the dinner table one night, dad asked the strong-willed son to do something, and the son doesn't reply in the right way. And so the dad says, you know what, your brother never gives many issues. And so the strong-willed child says, F you, dad, and says the word. And then when I hear that, the the way that he said that we go through different kinds of kind of F you and defiance, that was kind of a pleading, like a few dad, like I can never please

you. He runs off, slams the bedroom door. And then dad rightfully is like, you're never going to talk to me like that. You lose everything you own for the next month. Cause we're men, we give consequences. We can't keep right keep right like no food no video games for three weeks yeah and then your wife's like i gotta clean this up now yeah and so but but in this case i was actually um i i mentor some guys and so we actually text so he texts me he's like my son just literally flipped me off dropped the f-bomb on me. And I knew their history. And I said, I know what you want to do. And you'd be justified in reaming your son and taking everything away, but it's not going to accomplish what you want. So I want you to humble yourself. You know

how hard that is to tell a dad whose son just said F you? He's like, why do I have to humble myself? I'm looking for some contrition from that kid. I was like, I know you are. But you lead a child to contrition just like God leads us to contrition through his goodness. God didn't lead us to contrition from like, you know what? If you don't repent, you're going to hell. It was the goodness of God that leads us, right? Yeah.

So it's like, here's what I want you to do. We're texting. He's texting. He's like, I really want to ream him. I said, I do too, but don't. So he goes up and he knocks on his son's door. He doesn't have to knock on his son's door, but that was a sign of respect to his son to say,

I'm not going to barge in even though this is my house and you just called me that name. And I gave the guy a script and he said, son, sorry for what I said. And I'm sorry for the way I've treated you all these years. I'm going to leash up the dogs, go for a walk. And if you want to come join me, I'll listen to you, and I promise I won't lecture. And when I was recording the podcast and remembering that, what the dad told me afterwards, he said, every single step walking upstairs, and I almost want to cry at this,

was burdened with guilt. All those years I had misjudged my son. All those years, I yelled at him. I'd never accepted him. And it was like, he said, I was pregnant with every step I took up the stairs of guilt and heaviness. Because that phrase, and that's where I got it from. He said, I used to come in heavy every time. And it just yielded a broken relationship. And so as it turns out, he goes outside and he's standing outside of the Minnesota cold and waiting for his son. His son finally comes out and they start walking together. And one of the reasons I like dad and son or parents and child walking next to each other

is there's no eye contact because in that case, eye contact is way too powerful. There's too much shame. There's too much emotion. And so here's what happened. And this, this reminded me of Casey, the kid ends up saying, dad, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have called you those names. It's the kid who apologized first in a way. And I want to encourage dads with this. My, our son Casey was like this. I would blow up and I was justified because he did something wrong. And so I blew up and then I'd be like, I'm mad. I don't want to talk right now. And Casey would come into the living room. Dad, we need to talk. We need to talk. I don't want to talk right now. You need to calm down. I don't want to talk. It was my strong-willed son who was so difficult. He craved my acceptance. He had to have right relationship with his father. If he and my wife

were kind of at odds a little bit, it didn't mess him up much, but a son or a daughter with their dad, there's something really powerful about a dad. I have a lot of power with my son. I have an incredible amount. I don't tremble. That's a little bit dramatic, but I realize my wife could call Casey right now and say, you're a loser. You suck. And he'd be like, what are you? You've been drinking. What's going on? It wouldn't affect him.

If I look at my son the wrong way, Jim, if you look at one of your sons when you're out elk hunting and you give him that like cocked head look or if you shake your head at him, dad, what's the matter? What's the matter? What's the matter? We have an enormous amount of power in our words and in our acceptance. And anyway, what ended up happening was the kid ended up saying, dad, I don't feel like you like me as much as you like my brother. That opened the dad to say, I love you every bit as much as I love your brother. I just don't know how to connect with you. And we're so much alike. It just you trigger me and I trigger you.

But that moment when that kid dropped the F-bomb on the dad became an opportunity for them to connect and heal the relationship. So I don't want, guys, I don't want you to miss these opportunities that were filled with emotion because guys, we often justify things. And then we see kid doesn't listen to anything I say. So I'm going to, I'm going to withdraw and withhold my affection. And I'll just let my wife handle that kid. Right. That's what I did, and it happens a lot in homes. I'll just handle the easy kids. Honey, you handle the tough kid. Man, you know, it's interesting. When you told that story, I was raised in a family where we could write a book about the F word,

and the way he said F you, Dad, was in a way that was almost mourning the loss of a relationship. It wasn't a defiant F you. Now, don't get me wrong. You shouldn't say that to your dad. But reading the tone, he was actually saying, why don't you like me? I mean, I know you love me, but you don't like me, and it's breaking my heart. So that's really powerful stuff. I want to go back to something that we talked about last time you were on the show because you alluded to it just now. You have this dad who's disrespected. His kid goes to the

bedroom. The dad is just in what he's about to do. But as you shared with this friend of yours, he was about to accomplish something just, but not the end game. So why do you, one of the things you like to say, Kirk, is that the quickest way to change your child's behavior is to first control your own. Can you walk us through that a little bit more? Yeah, because I have so much control over other people's responses by how I approach. Look, this is at a hotel. This isn't with your waiter or waitress. It's with your wife. It's with everyone. With a strong willed child, they're very sensitive kids

and they will pick up on tone of voice is really important. And so I realized I was always justified and look as a guy, I can justify anything. Oh yeah. You're in the home, right? I was tired. I work hard. Absolutely. I can justify anything, but I try to keep my mind on that end goal. It's about a relationship. And so what I noticed is I'll do two things. One is body posture, right? Guy walks into the home, hands on the hips, standing over kids, just produces a defensive response, right? So it sounds dumb, but sitting down, it's one of my favorite things to do. It changes the dynamic from I'm standing over you, because we do project, and I do have to say this as guys, just watch this, we're intimidating people. We're very intimidating as men,

even when we don't mean to be, even being gruff, right? Like I did this one with my wife for many years where I was just kind of gruff. Well, that creates a barrier. So what I really wanted was for my wife to stop bringing up stuff that I needed to work on. So I just become gruff and that's a barrier, but it's intimidating to a lot of kids and a lot of women. And so I just be aware of that. Like you're like you're a big guy. Right. You have a presence about you, like when you're on Instagram and you're walking through the woods, right? It's like, I'm going to kill an elk with one hand and I'm going to give some men some tips with the other one, right? With a smile on your face. But just be aware of that as men. And so I did the opposite. So I would sit and then tone of voice I'd hit on. I may have done this last time, even matter of fact tone.

It's the tone you use at work when you're at the office or you have a business and everything's falling apart. You don't run through the office. You know what? Sales are down. You're not selling. You need to go, right? We don't do that at the office. We do that at home though right play goes so sometime try this come home and talk to your kids like you're talking to a colleague at off at the office because the office is like hey jim here's the deal sales are down got this new competitor coming in so we need to problem solve we got to fix this see the tone is yeah freaking out talking like that. So same thing with, can I do an example online? Well, here's, so yeah, I want you to, yeah, I want you to do this for sure. I want to, I want to make sure we talk about the two extremes in tone between I'm calling them

sweet and sour. So the overly aggressive, heavy handed, and then the, the guy that, or even the mom who's like, Oh, honey. I mean, let's talk about both those extremes. Yeah. Okay. So this is not meant to be offensive to anybody. I'll just tell you what I've realized with all these kids, that sweet tone. And many of you have wives who use that, right? Like sweetie, baby, mommy needs your help. Right? As soon as you say that to like a four-year-old, mommy needs your help. The four-year-old, strong-willed four-year-old is going to be like, well, mommy might want to find someone who wants to help because it's sure not going to be me.

Right. Because strong-willed kids are like four going on 24. But that's a big thing in Christian circles, especially. I really love the gentle parenting people. I love their goal. Where I would caution is that really sweet tone and referring to yourself as mommy or daddy. I don't like that with a strong willed child. They hear it as condescending and they hear it as weakness. Weakness in the parenting, yes. It also sounds disrespectful to them. I'm going to treat you like a baby because you're, you're not capable of actually controlling yourself. So I'm going to talk in this kind of pleading tone.

So that's one end. And then the other end was the one I did, which is spirit intimidation. My way or the highway. Yes. Yes. And in between it is the quarterback. Who is in complete control is the Patrick Mahomes down by what was the almost two

touchdowns in the Super Bowl at the half and he comes out in the second half not freaking out hey guys we're down by 10 points we're going to march down the field execute our plays score get the ball back and score again break his team follows him precisely because he's in control of himself is the magic of Brady. Yeah. It was last year when he had a horrible team, then he freaked out a little bit, but it's, it's the guy that you want to follow into battle. Yes.

I'd encourage you to have that mindset when you walk through your home of, I am going to be the calm, authoritative leader. It's in control of myself. And no matter what the kids are doing, you sit down and say, huh, that was interesting. So what do you think is going to happen if you keep doing that, son or daughter? Because now I'm talking to them. Rather than, you better cut that out right now, young lady. It just escalates things.

So tone of voice, sitting down, controlling myself. I'd encourage the guys, try this this week. Walk into a room. Let's see if you can do this. And don't fix it. Don't fix the situation. Don't fix your wife's mood. Because she doesn't want you to fix it.

Right? Because one thing, Jim, that took me a year, took me a full year to get this one, to stop proving my point. Because that's a big thing. Oh, for sure. I always told you guys, your wife is never going to say, honey, you know what? I'm so glad I married someone who's always right. And you're always there to point out that my emotions are illegitimate. It really makes me feel safe. Can't wait to go to the bedroom. Like she's never going to say that. Yeah. Right. Ever. Ever. So, so practice walking into a room. I don't have to fix that situation. As a guy, you feel like I better stop this. I better clamp down. Jim, a guy told me the other day, he said, I thought my role as a dad was to walk around

correcting everybody. And I was like, that works if you want to be seen as a jerk, right? Yeah. And nobody like you. But discipline means to teach, not to punish and not just to down people. So I don't know if I answered your question or not. Well, it's interesting. I was, cause I'm, I, Well, it's interesting. I've been a pastor for 30 years. I tend to get preachy in my tone. I tend to want to fix the thing. And I thought about what you're saying. And as you're speaking,

I said to myself, self, if you would just take one second longer. Like instead of going in and going, okay, let's do this thing, just stop, change your tone, and carry on. Like that one second to stop, that one second. When I do that, everything works out better. When I don't do that, I'm sleeping on the couch and living a marriage of celibacy. You know what I'm saying? But no, what you're saying is absolutely right.

And I'm just thinking for my own personal failure, which this anger thing is probably my biggest parenting failure. And thinking, man, if I would have stopped preaching. I mean, I'm a good parent. I love my kids. I'm close to my kids. But I'm thinking, if I reflect on my two biggest failures in life, it was not framing my wife the way that I should have framed her in front of the kids, and then dealing with the boys with anger more often than calm. So this stuff here is one of my favorite parenting episodes because you're teaching something I wish I would have learned, right? So if I would have just stopped and taken one second, calm your tone, just self-talk to myself or Lord help me, help me Jesus. So we have body posture,

sit down instead of tower over. We have the tone of voice at that balance between sweet and sour or gentle and authoritarian, the eye contact. So now this is interesting. I want to go back and visit this. So as guys, we like to do life side to side, right? So I mean, it's always good to have the guy over here, right? So how do we deal with eye contact, not only with a strong-willed child, but how do we deal with eye contact with our daughters versus our sons? Is it all the same across the board? I'd say here's a couple things. One is with the strong-willed child who is upset, I tend not to do eye contact. Okay, good, good. Because when a child does something wrong, throws something,

hits his sister, yells at your wife, he knows what he did was wrong. Now there becomes that shame and embarrassment. Now it's like, look at me, look at me. And now it's like God saying, hey, Jim, just saw, just heard that thought in your brain. I saw how, I will take it out of you. Hey, Robert, just saw you check out that other woman in church. Look at me. Look at me. Right? And you're like, nope, don't want to look at you in the eyes right now. Too much shame. Also, think about this.

Nobody likes to be watched when they're freaking out or when they're struggling. Oh, that's right. That's good. Isn't that true? Never thought of that. Nobody wants to be watched. You know what? I was hiking.

Leave me alone. Nobody wants me. You know what? I was hiking. We were hiking. Leave me alone. Mountains over here. And I was alone, and there was this nice couple from Ohio. So we're hiking up because I was kind of leading them. It was a tough hike. And I was like, I'm going up there. Just follow me.

So this guy kept turning around to his wife. Honey, are you OK? Honey, you OK? And she finally said, if you ask me one more, and I said, dude, nobody likes to watch, be watched when they're struggling. Let's hike ahead, give her space to struggle without someone staring at you. So, right. So that's part of the eye contact thing is like, if let's say a kid is a mixed paper airplane flies it, it doesn't fly well. So strong, well, kid's going to pick it up. Stupid airplane. This is dumbest airplane. I'm

dumb. He's going to crumple up the airplane and throw it down. Every good parent walks in. Oh, buddy, that was a good airplane. Well, that's a wrong thing to say because child's going to be like, uh, duh, if it were a good airplane, it would have flown. So instead, what I'm going to do is come and say, dude, if I were you, I'd be frustrated too. You put a lot of time into that airplane. It didn't fly right. That's frustrating. Listen, I've got to go to the bathroom. When I get back, let's figure out a different way to do this.

So I give some intensity. I validate the emotions right there. Yeah, you should be frustrated. Instead of like, there's no need to be frustrated. Yeah, you should be frustrated instead of like, there's no need to be frustrated. No, you should be frustrated. And the I'm going to the bathroom is I'm not going to stand here and watch you go from being really upset to calming yourself down. Because just think about this. All men do this. We all freak out over stupid stuff, right? Like one little thing goes wrong. You're like, I don't know why this. And then later you're like, I don't even,

it was my, a button was off my shirt. And then I freaked out for 15 minutes. Men, if when your kids and wife are staring at you, like in the car car when you have a road rage. Think of the shame and embarrassment of like, I'm a 35-year-old dude and I just did that. So that's part of it is I give some space during that time so they're not being watched. And the other thing with eye contact, I guess my general rule is when I praise kids, eye contact. Hey, that gym, really good choice, fist bump. When I'm praising, a lot of eye contact. When kids are struggling, when I have a hard talk with a teenage girl, right? Instead of, honey, let's come, let's have an eye to eye, let's have a big talk. It's too heavy. It's too much. So then I might go sit down and start drawing, start coloring

on something, doodling, saying, hey, honey, why don't you come in? Let's color. Let's draw. And now we're together. You have a great conversation with two people coloring. It is phenomenal with teenagers, actually, and little kids. But that's kind of my eye contact. I don't know that there's a huge difference with girls. I will say this because this is a guy's podcast. I am going to try, I'm trying to teach women how to, Jim, isn't this true in the church and elsewhere? Men have been taught how to speak like women so that we can connect with our wives. We had to do, we would learn that. But you know, what's kind of missing in my world is

moms learning how to speak the way that their husbands relate to or boys. Look, I've got a son that's 30. Casey and I have very short and sweet. If we need to get something across, there might be a couple inappropriate words, but it's not more than three or four words. And where she's like, got it, dad. Got it. It's not like, son, we really need to share our hearts. Right. Oh, my wife. I'll tell my wife, speak man to me. Women tend to be linear and divergent in how they communicate. You get around a group of women, it's exhausting. And when you get around men, it's like, you suck. No, you suck. You suck more. Okay, thank you. We're bros. Fist bump. But so that's, yeah, women need to learn to speak direct and linear. Women listening right now,

we need you to direct. Okay, let me put it on us as men. Well, I was going to do that next, but you do it. You can do that part. Men teach your wife. Yes. But speak to you. I was talking to a mom the other day because there's marriage issues. And she was like, well, we're sitting in bed and I was saying how heavy that makes my heart feel. And I was like, you can't do that. I can't help your heavy heart. Now, if you said, honey, what I really would like, when we're sitting in bed, could you sit so that your leg is touching mine? Because I really like the physical touch.

I can sit with my leg next to you, but I don't know what to do about the heaviness in your heart. I can fix the leg touch. I don't know how to lift a heart. But I will say one more thing, Kirk, and I can't resist. I'm going to go back because I'm going to give these guys a pro tip. This whole hiking thing. My wife and I have gotten in so many fights hiking,

and one of them a couple weeks ago ended up where she just left and took the dog we were watching and went down another trail. And I thought, Jim, you know better. Never let your wife walk behind you. Never, never, never let her follow you. Always put her in the front. She can go at her own pace. You got a better view and there's no arguing. So guys, I'm telling you, that's a pro tip. Always hike with your wife. Now don't hike with somebody else's wife in front of you. Only your wife. And then I want to go back to the eye

contact thing because I know you were thinking this, but you didn't say it. I know with me, I've got one, what I would call a strong-willed child. I'm probably emotionally closer. I'm very, very close to him. I'm very close to his heart. He shares really deep things always. But there was a season in my life I had to tell myself, smile with your eyes when you look at him. Because sometimes our eyes communicate, I hate you, and that's where that F you dad comes from. So that's why I love your advice on the eye contact, because sometimes our eyes just don't communicate the right message. And then there's shame involved, so they don't communicate the right message. Right. So, and then there's shame involved. So they don't want to, you know, you know, when I've,

if hypothetically I've ever flipped somebody off when I was driving my car, I don't want my kids and family staring at me. You know, I'm hoping they didn't see me. Right. Right. Well, that's Jim. It's a lot of times why I like, like when Casey was a teenager and we were kind of going at it,

I'd be like hey I gotta run um gotta run up the store stop at Taco Bell get a couple tacos now we're driving in the car next to each other conversation's just a lot easier because I'm not bearing down on him again there's a little bit of an intimidation thing that we have as guys where we look we all know we go to a hotel and the room's not ready. We know we step forward, right? We do these subtle things because I know I'm bigger than that clerk at the desk and I'm going to pull out my thing. And then, so I just try to do the opposite of that sometimes and just watch how it works. It's so, it's just cool that it just works better.

So it's really interesting that you said that, Kirk, because I have a phrase in my brain that I think you just said it. I try to get smaller. I had a 14-year-old kid in Colorado. I was at a speaking event. And he said, you're like a rhinoceros. Like, you know, I got to make sure I'm not horned down, ready to charge. So I try to get smaller, right? Because it's really easy for us to overpower, you know, try to overpower.

So you talk about body posture, your tone of your voice, eye contact, and you've alluded to this other thing. And I want to go back to, because I think this is important, that we should not ignore the emotion of the moment, right? That we should acknowledge it. Can you unpack that a little more? So, look, it's just acknowledging reality. Yeah. Because I think one of our weaknesses as guys is we're really good at problem solving in the work environment. Our brains, we just go there. And then when we come

home, our wife is emotional. Our kids are emotional. We go to, hey, it's no big deal. Shouldn't be upset, honey. Just overreacting. Hey, there's no need to be upset. And I think I joke at our live events. Sometimes I'll say what the honest statement you make to your wife or child is, look, I'm just so immature that I can't handle you having emotions. Your emotions make me uncomfortable. In fact, look, if you're a guy, go home and tell your wife that tonight. Just say, hey, you know all those times you've kind of shared and then I dismissed you or your emotions, that's not your issue. I'm just uncomfortable with your emotions because I think that my job is to fix your emotions. And it's so liberating in life to know my job is not to make you happy. My job is to not make you not feel disappointed, right? With kids,

that's modern day parent. One of the beautiful things that our parents had going for them is that they didn't get moved by the fact that we were bored or unhappy. It wasn't that they weren't caring. I think there was a certain respect of human nature where what they were saying is, look, you guys had all day long to roam the neighborhood and do stuff. If you weren't happy today, that's your issue, right? It's not my job to be your entertainer, but modern day parents are so engaged with their kids. We notice every mood. Oh, well, he's not happy. He's up in his room and he's not happy right now. And I'm not

talking about depression and severe anxiety. I'm just talking about letting your kids own their own moods and your wife owning her own mood and me being able to say, hey, honey, it sounds like you're frustrated. Listen, I'd love to listen, preferably at halftime, but I would love to listen. this cycle of having to fix her mood. And you can say, if you want to be in a bad mood for the rest of the day, you have the right to be in a bad mood the rest of the day. I got to grow up and realize that's not a reflection of me. My job is to control my own emotions, which is hard enough. Jim, you've already found this in 30 years of marriage. It is so liberating to know I don't have to fix that. And I, for lack of a better word, hold space for it. So when my wife or my son, my kids want to talk about it, then I'm like, oh yeah, I'd be frustrated too. Sometimes that's all people want to hear, right? I'll tell you what, in my marriage, I say two phrases over and over again.

The first phrase is, and I say it every day, is I love you. The second phrase I say over and over and over again, and she knows what I mean when I say it. Here it is. Honey, I'm so sorry you feel that way. I just say it because I know I can't fix it. And normally that launches a whole nother marital conversation. But just that phrase says, this is your emotion, not mine. I love you. And I acknowledge how you feel, but I'm not here to fix

it. But it launches the thing. But I will say something else too, that you're alluding to these parents that are overly engaged in their child's emotion. And I want to just draw a distinction here because what you're talking about right now is you're talking about, generally speaking, good parents. These are parents who want to engage. They're present physically. They're present emotionally. We're not talking about these absent parents. And if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably already a pretty good parent. We're talking to you guys. We're talking to you guys. So I just don't want you to feel like you're a bad parent or you're somehow exempt. You know what I mean? So you talk about, oh, sorry, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Well, you talk about acknowledging what they're experiencing. And then you have another

thing that you like to tell parents and And you already alluded to this. You talked about this going to Taco Bell. I'm going to go take a dog for the walk. I'm going to go color. You probably could write an entire book about this. In conflict, give them a job to do. It seems like that's a go-to for you. It's definitely a go-to and here's here's something a little bit new that i didn't do last time that i think it'll help guys a lot yes so so um child's melting down freaking out what's our our first go-to is hey you need to calm down and and i guarantee every man here if someone says says, hey, you know, Jim, you seem to calm down. You're like, oh, you know what you need to do? You want some calm, buddy?

That's when the F-bomb comes out. Oh, you know it. Nobody likes that. And so here's the switch. And I'll spend a minute setting this up, 30 seconds. The reason kids and adults get upset is because something is out of our control, right? And strong-willed kids have these very, very busy brains. They've got a lot of anxiety usually. Everything feels like it's out of their control. It's why they're controlling and bossy. It's why you can't play board games with them. They cheat. They change the rules of the game. They quit because that's all about controlling the outcome of the game. Guys, it's not that they're poor sports. They just feel like if I lose, that makes me a loser. It's a confidence issue.

But when a child loses control of himself, then they start freaking out. So here's the switch in your mind. Try this this week. When you walk into that room, instead of your goal being, I need to calm that kid down, switch to, I need to give my child something he or she is in control of. And that's where oftentimes the job comes in. So a quick example, I had, we had a lot of kids that came to our house for these camps back in the day. They come in all bossy, they'd be upset. And I'd say, oh, you know, I just forgot. I've got this broom in the basement. It's broken. If you could find some duct tape, fix that up for me, it would really help me out. So watch, this was a kid who three

seconds ago, this is stupid. I hate you. This is dumb, freaking out. And instead of addressing that and trying to get him to calm down, because how do you make someone calm down? I shifted and said, in my head, he's out of control. Nothing feels like it's in his control. And that's why they freak out. So I gave him a job to do fixing my broom. Well, that's concrete.

He can hold it. He can feel it. He can see he accomplished something. So that's why concrete. He can hold it. He can feel it. He can see he accomplished something. So that's why I like giving jobs a lot is because a job is something concrete to do. Right. It's, oh, you know what? And this is my go-to. This is just my honest, oh, you know, I just remembered or I'd forgotten that buys me like three seconds to think of something. You know, there's malt. Some of something. You know, there's mulch. Some of you have weird kids that'll move mulch. They love shoveling stuff. Be like, dude, you

know what? I forgot. There's some mulch in the backyard. I really needed it moved from this side of the yard to that side of the yard. Do you think you could do that? And you get a kid who's really upset. It feels really good to dig a shovel into mulch and to move it because now I've got a pile and I'm moving it from here to here. There's something very grounding about having something concrete to do when I'm upset because you can't think yourself calm. Okay, breathe because breathing makes me more upset. I hate deep breathing and I hate counting down from 10. I always run out of air. I want to murder someone. I've tried to do this block. They call it box breathing. I keep running out of air. I'm like, this sucks. I can't hold it.

Blow out all my air and then hold another four seconds. I'm getting pissed. So here's my question. So here's my question. So, okay. I'm a, I'm a, I'm a child who's angry. I'm a strong-willed child. And you're giving them a job to do. How's your success rate on that? Go tape that broom. Are they going to do that? Are they going to push back? Talk to me about that. It's not a chore. It's a favor. It's not a chore of like, go empty the trash. It's some kind of mission. We would call it a mission. Okay. Because these kids are very mission oriented. Okay. So I'm giving them a mission of like, oh, just remember this, bet you can't do X.

Okay. It's some kind of challenge, not a chore of go take the trash out. Hey, you're really upset. Go take the trash out. It's always like, I'll make you more upset. It's something that they would be good at. Now, the broom example is because most of the strong will kids we had were very good at tinkering with things. They like to tinker with things. They like to build things. So one of my examples is always, child's really upset. I may sit on the floor, right? So child's freaking out.

And I say, hey, I can tell you're frustrated. Listen, I'm going to go in the living room, dump the Legos out when you're ready, if you want to come in, I bet we could build a really cool spaceship. Why? Because holding those Legos in my hand, I can put them together. See how, see, this is in my hands. You just told me calm down. I don't know how to calm down. I do know, though, how to build a spaceship. I do know how to build with my Legos. I know how to fix a broom. I know how to color. I know how to, you know, if you've got an athletic kid, it could be, hey, let's go shoot free throws. See who can get the most out of the first 20. Okay, I'm good at that.

That's repetitive things, right? Shooting hoops, shooting hoops, same motion. Does that make sense? So, yeah, so I'm just trying to unpack the whole thing because it generates questions in my mind. I'm sure it's generating some questions to the other guys. So is this assuming the kid's frustrated but not frustrated directly at you because he still wants to spend time with you shooting baskets or building Legos? Or does this matter? Do you find that it matters if they're angry at you or not?

Look, I'll separate it into two things. Usually it won't matter that much if you're actually leading them to a calm place. Yes. Right. They want to be calm. They don't want to freak out. They just don't know how to get from here down to here because we don't know. Yeah. So they're freaking out. So it's like you've been in situations where you're drawn to that guy, that fireman, the EMT. Those guys exude so much. You're like, I can do anything with you because it's going to be okay. You feel, I don't like using the word safe, but it's kind of what it is. When I get to that role, I'm like, dude, look, with boy or girl, I could say,

you know what, if I were you, I'd be freaking out too. Your brother took your Doritos. You should want to hit him. I don't, but you should want to hit him. He took your Doritos. Dude, totally get it. You know what pops in my head, Jim is, is this thing I used to do with kids at our house. Cause we had all these kids that would come to our house and they were all on the spectrum and upset emotional kids. I just learned to literally sit on the sofa and put my feet up and say,

yeah, totally get why you're doing that. So what are you going to, what do you want to do next? Like that, that conversation and that tone, because instead of like, oh no, why are you getting so upset or going to, you know what, if you don't play right and do that, you're going to lose your Legos forever. There was a conversational tone that normalized frustration. Of course you're frustrated because your sister, your sister ate the last brownie. But what do we do? We lecture. You know what? There are kids starving in Africa. You know, a little bit of gratitude would be nice, right? It's like acknowledge human nature. There was one brownie left and the kid's sister took it. What's he supposed to say? You know what? I love when my sister gets the last brownie. Like, that'd be weird, right?

His normal response should be, how come she always takes the last brownie? Dude, if I were you, those brownies are awesome. I'd be mad at your sister too. So we got a couple options here. You can go hit your sister, but then you're not getting brownies for like another year. You're gonna lose all your stuff. Or we can problem solve. What's another way we can handle that? And now I'm his brain oh can i share one thing jim i just learned yeah yeah yeah

yeah for sure this this is an advantage that men have over our wives i was just listening to this other podcast and this guy was talking about tone of voice. You know that like late, late night FM voice, that kind of deep, low key tone. When you talk like that to someone, it automatically creates a neural response in the hearer that bypasses anything rational. There's just something about that tone. You are bypassing their emotional circuitry by just saying like, yeah, of course you're upset because your sister ate the last brownie. Why wouldn't you be upset? So what are we going to do? What are our options here? Well, I could go hit her. Yeah, you could hit her, but I could pound the crap out of you too. Probably not a good option. So what's option number two? Well, dad, could we go

up to the store and maybe don't tell mom, could we go up and get some Doritos? You know what, dude, you get in the car right now. I like the way you handle that. And then you go to Dairy Queen because you wanted the brownie frosty or whatever. What do they have? Blizzard, baby. Blizzard. Blizzard. Yes. I want the brownie blizzard. So that tone, we have an advantage as men that that tone is automatically calming. The high-pitched or higher-pitched and a lot of talking makes people much more upset and feel much more unstable. So it's something in the circuitry. Well, I heard you speaking there, and I go, okay, I'm getting this now.

So there's an element of when I'm giving a job, not a chore, there's an element of deflection. I'm deflecting their anger to something else. Maybe the correct word is projection. And then I'm becoming, even if they're angry at me, I've allied myself with them now. Instead of their adversary, with my tone of voice, with my posture, with my eye contact choices, with my giving them a job to do, I now have become an ally, which lowers the level. That's what I'm hearing you say. Yeah.

Let's do an example where my son's younger. I tell him something he doesn't like. Stupid. Why can't I go? You're not going to let me go to my friend's sleepover. They're doing a big thing. And he's mad at me. Look, some of this, Jim, as I get older, as you probably found, just don't take it so personally, right? Like, is your 13- 13 year old supposed to say dad you know what i only have a 13 year old brain and my brain's not developed so i really appreciate that you have the wisdom and courage to say no like they should say what were you thinking that's dumb why can't i do that and then i normal normalize it. And I used to tell Casey, of course you're mad at me

because your job as a teenager is to push the limits. It's to do all these experiences with your friends. That's your job. My job is to give you as much freedom as I can give you without you making a stupid teenage decision that will ruin the rest of your life. And I like having those talks of like, Casey, this is a cat and mouse game that we're going to have throughout your teenage years. You should want to push and I should want to bring you back. That's how it's going to work. And there are times where I'm going to say no. And I did this where I'll say no on purpose, just so you're disappointed because I want two things. One, I want you to know that life is filled with disappointment,

right? So if you're going to be like a Denver Broncos fan this year, even though you have your great new coach, a little bit of humble pie there, you're going to have a disappointing year. And then the other part of this that I wanted to teach myself was, I'm okay with your disappointment. I'm okay with you being mad at me. I don't need you to be happy with my decision. Now, this is not that old school, I'm the authority figure in the home, which means I get to yell and say whatever I want.

I'm a dictator. I've been to former Eastern European countries, right, that were under dictatorships. Dictatorships are not that awesome, right? It's an old school Christian thing of like, I'm the dictator in the home. I'm like, it didn't work any place else. I'm not the dictator. I'm a leader. Leader's a lot different. But anyway, I got to where I would say that of like, of course you're mad at me because I won't let you do what you want to do. And I'm okay with that. So be mad at me. You can give me the silent treatment for the rest of the day. I'm comfortable with that. I'm a grown man. I get it. Or when you're ready to move on, I bet we could come up with plan B. And then I give him some space to process that. And later

he'd come in, okay, what's stupid plan B, right? And I'd be like, okay, right. And then you have to not get upset because he called it stupid plan B. He's a disappointed 13-year-old kid. So yeah, so I think you become that ally. I wish I could say it in this way of like, just stop fighting everything. We're grown men. We've seen stuff in life. Like, what is your five-year-old? Is your five-year-old, your five-year-old is supposed to have tantrums every day. That's like their job description, right? Until they finally learn it doesn't work because mom and dad sit down when I'm having a tantrum and they don't give me what I want. And so then they figure out a more mature way to handle it.

But take some of that pressure off of yourselves as men. Like, I've got to correct every infraction in my home or my child's going to grow up and be a reprobate. No, you were an idiot as a kid too. And we did all kinds of stupid stuff. And look, we turned out to be pretty reprobate. No, you were an idiot as a kid too. And we did all kinds of stupid stuff. And look, we turned out to be pretty good as adults. Yes. Being relaxed with some of that stuff. Well, I love what you're saying. Again, to good parents who want to grow, we have to be okay with our children's anger. I'm okay with that. I do want to,

just one last question here. I do want to dive into my anger. So I'm okay with that. I do want to, just one last question here. I do want to dive into my anger. So I'm okay with my child's anger, but what are some tips for a dad to not lose his control and lose his temper? What are some ways to keep the situation de-escalated? I'd say one of my favorite things is do the opposite of what you normally do, because what you're doing now is ruining the situation, escalating. So when I walk into the room like this, that's when I started sitting. Rather than getting on the child, I ask questions. That's great. Hey, I'm curious. Looks like you're upset about something. What's going on? And do you think that this is going to get you what you want? Because the kids

already know what they're doing is wrong. There's no need to point, like every kid lies, kids lie because they know what they did was wrong. Don't get upset about lying. Everybody, they lie because they messed up and it is the first thing a human being did on earth. Yes. Adam, I just read that again. And it was really interesting. Adam, don't eat from that tree. Adam eats from the tree. God says, hey, what happened over there? And he's like, that woman that you put here with me.

That woman. That was even worse than I remember. Oh, yeah, that woman. That you put here with me. That naked lady over there. That you put here with me. It was like that woman. That naked lady over there? That one. Yeah.

That Ms. Lewinsky. Yeah. That woman. So it's normalized. You know what would be a helpful thing is go back into your childhood and remember what it was like to be a kid. Right? to your childhood and remember what it was like to be a kid, right? Because we get all into like, especially Christian men a lot, because we're like, we've got to raise a God-fearing man who does these on the straight and narrow.

And it's like, we weren't that great as kids. We had room and space to do mischievous stuff and dumb. Look, we're guys. We're still doing dumb stuff, right? That's part of our job description too. I'm an ultra responsible CEO, but I do dumb stuff sometimes because? That's part of our job description too. I'm an ultra responsible CEO, but I do dumb stuff sometimes because I'm still a little kid, right? Jim, we were at a, because we're older now and we're in a cold area. So we'd go to this hot springs and, you know,

I grew up as an athlete. So there's this dad in there playing catch with his kids. Why just jumped in and intercepted? Because I wanted to do the pick six, why? Because I'm a 57 year old boy that wanted to do a pick six. I'm playing with the kids and the mom's like, oh, honey, it looks like you found another big boy to play with because that's who we are. We're just boys, right? So give yourselves for the anger part.

I sit down, just try this week. Do this tone. Talk to your kids in the same manner that you talk to your colleagues at work. Because I guarantee you don't walk, talk to your colleagues at work like, what were you thinking? You don't go to your room. Go to your cubicle. Yeah, talk to them like adults walk in bond with them and if you want to go like an extra step i'd say find this is a cool one find the trigger that irritates you most

right let's say it's a messy bedroom right because god you're gonna have orderly thing because you're not orderly in life you're not gonna be orderly later on right like all those things so um it's so nice being older isn't it jim you can look glorious it is and you're like that didn't matter why did we spend three weeks fighting over that but find something that irritates you and then bond with your kids over it so you've got a little daughter whose room is an absolute mess. And you say, honey, if you just spend three minutes a day on it, it would stay orderly.

She's not gonna spend three minutes a day. Why? Because she's not 42 like you. She's seven. Instead, come in, play some music and say, all right, let's do dance party cleanup. How many songs we doing, honey? We're gonna do one song or two song cleanup and play some obnoxious kid music that you hate,

that she loves and dance around with her and enjoy her and help her clean up the room and give her a hug and say, man, that feels so much better, doesn't it? By the way, take a picture of the room before and after and put that up on the wall so that your messy kid can visually actually see this is what it looks like because they're not naturally always good. But right then, instead of standing in the hallway or in the doorway, honey, you know what? No dessert for you until your room's clean. No, that's what we get into. Now, I just danced or I just had fun with my daughter and I helped her clean up her room and I showed her how to do it. And even if I have to do that for the next 12 years, that becomes our bonding time. And then we lay down and we talk and then she's going to be 15. And she's been like, dad, can we do that? Like bonding? Can we

do that? Like music thing. And she'll always love it. And she'll be 35 and she'll say like, dad, you know what I remember as a kid when you would come in and dance with me in my room and I knew you hated Britney Spears or whatever stupid pop music I listened to, but you bonded and then they'll listen to you. If you bond with them, they will listen to you. But if you're just barking orders,

it's just like at work, people leave and work for another company. Yeah. That's so good, man. Yeah. Remember when we used to dance together, dad, and you're going, yeah, helping you clean your dang room. That's good. Yeah. And now they've got their own home. Casey lives seven minutes from here. His room was a disaster as a kid. Now, Jim, if you're ever over here and you come along, we'll hike. For sure. We'll do a guy hike. Oh, yeah. So we'll get in trouble with our wives. And so when you walk in Casey's house, here's what he's going to say. You got to take off your shoes. And I was like, seriously? Seriously? You never

cleaned your entire childhood, and now you want a spotless home? So I intentionally bring some dirt into his room, into his room. Oh yeah. Got to rub it in literally. Man, I'll tell you what, Kirk, it's always great having you on the show. You've got great resources for our guys. Can you give us some links to your stuff? Where can they get ahold of you? Get your material.

The podcast is Calm Parenting Podcast. So you can listen to that, find that on any platform. Our website is celebratecalm.com. My email's there. Feel free, email. Tell me you heard me on this podcast, so then I know I can talk to you like a guy, like Jim would do. No, there is something there. No, there's a DNA there, right? You know how you can address them. You don't have to go, how are you doing as a parent? Yeah. I can talk to you like a guy and like, what are you screwing up with? What do you want to change? Let's roll. And he's like, thanks. That was three sentences. I'm like, good. Because with moms, no offense, moms,

because I know some of you are listening. I get like nine paragraphs. I really appreciate you sharing your heart. And I have to do a long one with a guy. It's like, hey, dude, cut the crap. Stop doing this thing. It'll be much better. And it's like, Hey dude, cut the crap. Stop doing this thing. It'll be much better. And they're like, got it. But yeah, reach out to us anytime and we'll be glad to help you out. Well, Kirk, it's great having you on the show, man. You are pouring so much into our guys and you are definitely a difference maker. Thanks a lot, man. Hey, quick thing. Yep. I've got all day, man. Follow Jim on Instagram. I don't have, I have Instagram and Jim's the only, every day it pops up and there's Jim walking through the woods

with a dead animal in his hands, giving us a pro tip to the men. It's really, really helpful stuff. And you've got a real, I told you before, but I'll tell you in front of the guys. Yeah. Jim has a gift for mentoring, right? Like you could tell guys anything and they'd be like, I'll do it because of the heart, the pastoral heart you have. So I appreciate what you're doing. Appreciate that. I will say this. I'm tired of the Hobbit comments.

I've already made it to Mordor. I don't need to go to Isengard. I mean, and my feet are not hairy. So just stop teasing me. Find another way to get at me. But the Hobbit comments, I'm done. I get all these comments. Are you going to Mordor?

Are you a Hobbit? I'm like, dude. Guys, email me and we'll come up with a little campaign to get under Jim's skin. Yeah, hashtag not a Hobbit. That's awesome. Thank you. Have a great day, Kirk. Guys, as we conclude this podcast, I want to share with you Man Law,

number 25 out of the 101 found to share with you Man Law, number 25 out of the 101 found in my book, Man Laws. This is from an unknown source. He says this, never go to the toolbox if your pocket knife will suffice. Now, I could not agree no more. I use my knife every day. I carry it every day. And man, it's crazy some of the weird things I've used this knife for. So the life rule here, guys, is always carry a knife or multi-tool on your person. Men, if you haven't done so yet, make sure you subscribe to the Men in the Arena podcast.

It helps us in our rankings and it gives you the opportunity to receive our weekly downloads without doing a thing. Until next time, feel the wet sand on the arena floor. Hear the deafening roar of the crowd. Taste the sweetness of victory, smell the stench of battle, get in the game, get dirty, grind it out, calmly parent, and be a man.