Calm Parenting Podcast - Men In The Arena Guest Podcast: Discipline Without Anger w/ Kirk Martin

Episode Date: February 2, 2023

Dads, are you tired of yelling at your kids? Does your child seem to push all your buttons? Do you struggle with how to respond to rebellious or disobedient kids in a way that is loving but also holds the line? In this week's episode, Kirk Martin, host of the Calm Parenting podcast, joins Jim Ramos on the Men In The Arena Podcast to teach you how to regain your calm and discipline your kids WITHOUT the anger. Get Your Copy Now! of Jim's Newest Free Book Download! www.meninthearena.org Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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no multiple step protocols, just simple scientifically validated solutions. The secret is One Skin's proprietary OS1 peptide. It's the first ingredient proven to switch off the aging cells that cause lines, wrinkles, and thinning skin. OneSkin is the world's first skin longevity company. By focusing on the cellular aspects of aging, OneSkin keeps your skin looking and acting younger for longer. Get started today with 15% off using code Kirk at OneSkin.co. That's 15% off at OneSkin.co with code K-I-R-K. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. So please support our podcast and tell them we sent you. Guys, are you sick and tired of screaming and yelling at your children to get them to obey? Today, I'm going to scratch my own itch and interview a man I wish I'd heard of 25 years ago.

This is going to be a game changer of a podcast for you guys in the stress bubble of life. It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marked by dust and sweat and blood. Welcome to the Men in the Arena podcast, where we interview specialists in the realm of manhood. Each of our guests is an expert in their chosen field or cause as it relates to men. Our conviction is to call you into the arena of manhood, call you out of the faceless, nameless bleachers,

and call you up to be the best version of you. Because when a man gets it, everyone wins. Enjoy today's episode. Men in the Arena Army, I salute you guys. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Men in the Arena Army, I salute you guys. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Men in the Arena podcast. I'm Jim Ramos, your host of today's show and guide to helping you become the best version of a man inside that stressful of life and beyond. Guys, I want to share with you one of our hero stories today. So our hero stories come in almost every day of the week for men and women around the world describing how God has transformed their lives. This one

comes from Bill in Indiana. Bill writes this, God has used Men in the Arena as a tool in his hand. I started listening to podcasts on a whim. Oh boy, let me tell you, it doesn't disappoint. For three months since I started implementing the areas from the podcast, God started to awaken me from the bleachers out of a life of apathy. My kids didn't like it, but my wife loved it. I bet she did. And those in my sphere of influence are hopefully benefiting from it too. I joined a men in the arena virtual group. I thought it was a joke that God could actually use a satellite group in my life, but man, was I wrong. I am really close to this group of men and the things I glean from them is

unfathomable. God is doing something in my life that is indescribable. Thanks for being the hands and feet of Christ in men's and families' lives. Thanks for specifically admonishing me to be the best version of myself to God, my family, and others. Bill, that is so inspiring, bro. Hit us up at info at menintherarena.org with your physical address. We will shoot you some swag. Guys, stay tuned to the end of the podcast so that we can share with you our man law for this week. You're going to love it. Hey, guys, thanks for making the Men in the Arena podcast Spotify's number one podcast for Christian men.

Guys, I am so excited about bringing our guest on today. I wish I'd heard this guy 25 years ago. It would have saved me a lot of problems and my kids a lot of baggage. So this is my new friend, Kirk Martin. Kirk lives in Bozeman, Montana with his beautiful wife of 30 years, Anita. Kirk is the founder of Celebrate Calm.com. That's C-a-l-m dot com and the calm parenting podcast with his son casey he's shown almost one million parents how to stop the yelling defiance and power struggles even with the most strong-willed of children yes even with your kid guy kirk is known for very practical strategies and scripts delivered with

humor and compassion learn how to get your kids to listen the first time while building a close and trusting relationship i am so excited to have you on kirk thanks for coming on welcome jim thank you i'm excited this is awesome man the our guys need this so much and and i gotta tell you so i'm a quarter portuguese and a quarter italian and i don't want to generalize but my my my dad was raised in a in a full portuguese half portuguese half italian a lot of demonstrative parenting a lot of yelling uh very close but a lot of yelling my dad raised me with a lot of yelling very Very close to my dad. Today we talk about every day on the phone, a lot of yelling. Guess how I raised my kids?

A lot of yelling, a lot of screaming. I think my kids have a lot of baggage from that. So I'm just confessing that to you ahead of time. I am no expert. I'm looking to scratch my own itch today. So I am really, really excited about hearing what you have to say today. Well, I appreciate that. I was raised by a career military dad. Oh, sorry.

My way or the highway, like fear and intimidation. So that's how I had three brothers. So we all grew up, did the same thing, right? And it's always that, well, if it was good enough for my dad, it's good enough for me. I was like, maybe there's a different way sometimes, right? Because we still want you to be respected, but we don't want to lose control, right? So anyway, we can get into that a little bit. Well, and I think also today, I'm always looking to break the cycle, right? Yeah. How can we break the cycle, right? Yeah. Like, how can we break the cycle? Because, you know, I wasn't raised in those spiritual environments, I would say.

But I had a great dad, right? And he had a great dad. But there's certain things, even with great fathers, that we need to break some cycles. I mean, I think dads matter, don't you? At the risk of sounding weird, I would say sometimes dads matter more, right? Like we work with a lot of people in every week. And one of the most frustrating and wonderful things is, I think it's your tagline, like if the dad gets it right, right? Like if we can get the dad engaged everything changes yes i was telling you before we we started

i can i can destroy my son emotionally in ways that my wife cannot just i can give him a certain look and he's like dad what is everything okay right because we carry there's something about the guy and about our words and about look i mean k, the story of Cain and Abel is a story of one boy not getting the father's acceptance. I mean, it's one of the first stories and whether people believe in, like I speak a lot in secular places and I just say, look, it's ancient literature that reflects a truth. And then that truth was that one boy didn't get his father's acceptance, and so he murders his brother. And it will carry on for generation after generation. Doctors, I deal with so many doctors, you know what they're looking for? Acceptance of my father. I was never good enough so now i'm this super high achiever because i want my dad to know that i was worth his love all the time all that's like every

every week with a different doctor and that's what it relates to well tell us about calm parenting i mean i've done my research and i know who you are, but for our listeners, say, who may not know who you are, you've got a significant ministry, I would call it a ministry. Tell us what you do and who you do it with. So our main focus is strong-willed kids, right? So these, because the compliant kids are pretty easy. They make you feel like a good parent, right? Like they just listen. They're kind of boring. So the Strongville kids are like our son. The kids, they don't care about consequences. And that's our first go-to as a parent is, hey, if you do that, I take away X. And they're like, here. It's frustrating. They're kids that want to do things on their own terms. These are very headstrong, headstrong kids. And so it's just frustrating.

And so our experience was born out of our son, Casey. I was the typical dad like you of like, hey, when I tell you to do something, I want it done. Yeah. You're not going to listen to me. Right. And the fear and intimidation. And he just wouldn't back down. And so we did all the power struggles. And so I used to pray all the time this, I would say, God, why'd you give us this kid? Like you need to change him. Like he

makes everything difficult. Like in all honesty, I didn't like Casey when he was little. He was a pain, right? Like everything everything like put your shoes on why is that hard I come home from work there's a meltdown over something so I didn't really like him in that way like you love your kids but that's one of it's how I end almost every

interview is to say enjoy your kids because if you don't really enjoy them and like who they are then there's always going to be a tone and an edge. So I remember, it was this period of life, Casey was about nine, and I was praying and I was like, you got to change him. And so I started hearing that still small voice. And it was three questions. One, what if your son is wired like this, made like this on purpose?

Well, that's dumb. Why would you make someone like that? Right until you realize most everybody in the Bible and who's done anything interesting in life was strong-willed. Every iPhone, every Steve Jobs, I'm sure was not a joy to parent or teach. So second question, what if by trying to change your son, you are frustrating my purposes for him? Whoa. And I was like, oh, now I'm messing with the larger design here out of my own convenience because I don't know how to control myself? And then the third question was, what if instead of trying to change your son, you're the one who needs to change? And I thought that was the voice of the devil. So like most men-

Yeah, rebuke that sucker. No, so look, I hope for all the guys, I don't do blame or guilt. I don't do any blame or guilt. I just ask us to be honest with ourselves and do what we expect of our kids because we tell our kids all the time, hey, you need to own up to your choices. And then we don't, right? Because we have an excuse of like, well, he needs to change. He did it first. And I'm like, I'm the authority figure in the home, which means I'm the one who comes with humility. I'm the one who leads. And I think sometimes, especially in the Christian world, we have a misconception of authority figures, right? We're like, well,

the authority figure gets to tell everybody what to do. I'm like, well, our authority figure gave his son, right? He took the first step. He wasn't like, hey, when you guys get your act together, then I'll be kind to you. He's like, no, I led. So one of our key phrases is humility leads to contrition. And it's one of the most powerful tools. I'll tell a couple stories, if you don't mind, at some point, and we'll kind of demonstrate in real-world circumstances, how do we maybe typically do it now, and then what is a

different way that you could handle that situation so that you de-escalate, you build the relationship, and you get the respect. Go ahead. Well, one of the things I want to hear and I I was I'll be honest I was moved to tears by this story it impacted me deeply because I saw myself in this story numerous times with my sons will you tell us the story about your wake-up call when Casey was nine no because I'll cry okay in front of men I don't cry in front of men you didn't cry in the video you didn't cry in the video that you made me cry in i'll do the shortened version but okay typical situation right like i i used to sit like ward cleaver in the living room right where's my wife in case you'd be in the kitchen doing homework and doing that stuff and i heard her say

hey case you need to take out the trash and he looked up and he's like i i will in a minute in a few minutes well the way i grew up probably like you when your dad tells you to take out the trash you take out the trash right there's no hey dad could or no, you just take out the trash. Yeah. So when I heard him doing that, I was like, hey, case, take out the trash. See, at first I was all right with that one. But then as he progressed, then it was, hey, and then the body posture comes, right? Now I'm getting up off the seat.

Hey, when your mother tells you to take out the trash, you take out the trash. Again, nothing really wrong with that, right? I'm not screaming. I'm not saying he's an idiot. There's nothing really wrong with that. But you kind of have to read the moment with the strong-willed child because they are not immediately compliant. They're not like little robots. Their first response to literally everything is going to be no. And I'll share this. When I go for walks and talk to God, because I don't like praying sitting down because I fall asleep. I go for walks. And you know those times when you sense God speaking to you, wants you to do something new or different, It's uncomfortable. My first response to the creator is not really comfortable with that. Right? God, I don't want to do it. Like that's the honest

response. And so I keep walking and I keep talking and eventually I yield. But my first response to just about anything new in life makes me uncomfortable now. So you have kids like that. So Casey's doing the no thing. I finally go in the kitchen and I start reaming him, right? Like you take the trash out like your mother asked, or you can go men to watch this, I used to use that as an opportunity to lay into him for all the other things he was doing wrong or not doing. Because inside of me was a certain amount of resentment because he did make life difficult. You know what? You never pick up your Legos. You don't go to bed on time. You don't do this.

And it becomes very, very personal. And I encourage us not to get personal because that wounds and destroys people, especially your strong willed kids. As much as they are very tough, they're also very sensitive kids. I guarantee you the kids are going to grow up and help more people than your compliant kids. Because those who are forgiven of much, love much. And they have really big hearts,

but not towards you. Right? Towards you. It's F you, dad. But toward other people. Right? You're going to hear from other parents of like, your son, your daughter is amazing. We love having her over to the house and you're like really because keep up helped you keep them yeah keep them like hey i've got an arrangement here

yeah i give you a cash payment every month this doesn't eat his food anyway yeah so if you can get him to eat good and that's a natural dynamic. So anyway, I started yelling at him and getting on him. And so he started crying and I did the great Santini. If you ever saw the movie with Robert Duvall, the great Santini, that was my dad, where he's throwing the basketball sun in his son's head, squirt, baby squirt. Like, what are you going to cry? So when he goes upstairs, I'm like, what, you now casey which even now i'm ashamed of yeah and then what does he do he slams the door because of course that's what they're gonna do yeah and he also knew i was gonna do the you know you don't have to respect me but you're gonna respect my door nobody slams the door in my house that i worked

hard to pay you know typical guy thing right yeah So this ugly scene happens, and then I come back downstairs, and I read what he was working on. What he was working on was a school project, and the teacher had given a project to say, you have to write about your superhero. And because my son was strong-willed, he didn't want to do one of the regular superheroes because he thought that was stupid, right? Doesn't want to follow directions. And so he wouldn't write about a superhero, which was me, right? And then it's like, dude, why am I destroying this eight, eight and a half year old kid who looks up to me and idolizes me when he really shouldn't, right? Based on my behavior. Because one of the, look, we'll get into one of these stories, but one of the key things that was happening was

I needed my son to behave precisely because I couldn't behave. So unpack that a little bit. It's that thing of like, you need to do exactly what I tell you to do. Well, why is that? The hidden message is if you don't do exactly what I tell you to do, I'm not sure I can control myself. It was like I had this high, and a lot of the guys, the guys that are engineers, the guys that are project managers, all struggle. Because I joke about this at live workshops. They all struggle with order and structure. When they come home from work and there are Legos on the floor, and there's disorder in people in people's emotions in the home, right? Like our wives get upset, freaks us out. And so our instinct is I need to create that

order. And so I'm going to do it this way. I'm going to make order happen because I can't handle any disorder in my life, right? That's why I like, look, as a guy, I like work. I can outwork anyone. Work is easy for me, right? You could podcast 20 hours a day. You're a high energy guy. I could work. The hardest thing for me is to walk in a room and know

my son's not doing his homework, or I hear him in conflict or my wife is upset and I'm like, I'm out. It's a disorder. And so that was the big moment there and realizing the reason I needed him to behave was because I couldn't control myself. So as long, look, we say it all the time. If my son or daughter would just do X, everything would be better. Well, now I've placed my happiness and my calm, myself in the hands of another human being, depending on whether they're going to behave or not. And that's just not a great place to be in life. Wow. So why do you say that the quickest way to change your child's behavior is to first control your own? Look, if we were in the same room and I walk, let's say you're sitting and I walk up and stand over you, I walk towards you,

guarantee your first response is going to be to push back, right? And get up and get defensive. I can control how other people respond to me or react to me by my body posture, by my tone of voice, right? Like we read these things all the time. And so it gives us, so two key principles. One is this, the only person in life that I can control is myself, right? We still haven't learned that, but I'm really the only person I can control in life. And I think, look, when you read that scripture Jesus said of first take out the log, look at the log in your own eye before you pick out the speck. This is my interpretation because I'm strong-willed and I have my own interpretation. I think what he really meant was you will be so busy your entire life

finding the own stuff inside yourself that you will actually never have a chance to look at someone else's spec in their eye. There's so much junk in us. I'm 56 now and I've been doing this for a while. Every week I find something new. I'm like, oh, I never realized I did that. You know those times, Jim, when you're like, I'm doing pretty well in my walk. And then you fall flat on your face. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So that controlling, I mean, that's, I don't want to be political or with a larger church, but I think sometimes

Christians, we get so focused on how everybody else is behaving. Yes. That we don't focus on our own. And if we as the church were consumed with changing ourselves, people would just be drawn to us, right? Rather than picking out everything they're doing wrong. So the only person you control is yourself. Quickest way to change your child's behavior is to first control your own. And so, you know, tone of voice, really important. See, if I do, let's say I wake up my child. Hey, Kate, come on. You got to get up.

Kate, get your shoes on. Get to the car. 100% of the time, pretty much guaranteed, that's not going to end well. Kate, how many times do I have to tell you? Do I have to? Right? And that irritated voice triggers them. Do you mind if I do a quick thing on tone of voice?

No, I want to hear it. Yes, go for it. Okay. So tone of voice, really important. Strong will kids especially. I don't like the really sweet one. So a lot of moms will do this thing. Oh, sweetie, baby, mommy needs your help.

And the strong will child hears that as weakness and condescension. Yep. And the child's basically hearing, I'm going to own you. You're afraid of me. Because what it really sounds like, and I don't want to offend anybody, is, sweetie, baby, you scare the crap out of me. Because every time I tell you to do something, you have a big meltdown. So if I talk in this sing-songy voice like a teenager,

you've heard moms, and not being mean at all. It is the also mommy and daddy with a strong-willed child. I don't like referring to myself as, well, daddy needs your help. I talk to a strong-willed child like they're an adult, even a three-year-old. That's not the way I'm rolling in the home. That is so settling to them when you talk in this even matter of fact tone. The other ones that don't work are the pleading tone, right? Guys, you know what? All I'm asking for is a little bit of help around here. Well, now you're clearly weak and you're agitated.

And if I'm strong-willed, I know how to push people's buttons. So when I hear weakness, it's like blood in the water for a shark. They're going for it. After all I do for you, right, that's usually a generational pattern for a lot of moms. Yes, yes. You know what I figure that is? It's manipulation. Yes.

Because I've done so much for you, you now owe me to do your homework, to clean your room, right? There's a subtle manipulation in after all I've done for you, that's manipulative. Reciprocation. Yeah. And I always joke with moms. I'm like, look, your kids are never going to wake up and say, mom, listen, had a talk with my brother. We've determined you do way too much for us. No, people are going to take advantage of you because you're probably a people pleaser. Yep. Right. Those are the people at church who end up on every committee because that mom can't say no. Correct. And then they end up being the resentful person. How come nobody ever does anything for me and for women? And so husbands you know if you have a wife who's doing that realize that's a deeply held pattern inside of her and she needs you can come

alongside of her and say honey it's okay to say no it's okay to say no you don't have to please everybody else you're this is a great thing to tell your wife. You are not responsible for everybody else's happiness because wives live with a terrible burden. have owned me to a degree. For sure. For sure. With my son, I had no problem saying, oh, you're disappointed. I am not moved. I have no problem with your disappointment. If you're unhappy right now, that's your choice and I'm perfectly fine. Not in a cold way, but in a healthy way. Yeah. Right. And so I just say for husbands, help your wives relieve that burden because wives go through their lives thinking, well, I have to make sure everything's okay. I have to make sure the kids are happy. Everybody's happy.

We've got Thanksgiving. We've got Christmas. And I want to make sure everything. And it's so much pressure. So for you to come along and put your arms around her and say, it doesn't have to all be great. It's okay if they're unhappy. Right? I'm not talking about suicidal,'re unhappy right i'm not talking about

suicidal unhappy depression i'm just talking about disappointment so um now i don't know where i was going with that jim i get off tracks so you were talking about tones of voice and tone of voice and i really i appreciate the fact you said even keeled matter of fact tone and earlier in the podcast you said don't get personal so to me you have to link those two together because when I take it personal my tone changes right I become a negotiator I become a whiner I become a bargainer so can you talk us through because how does a man control his emotion so he doesn't get personal with a strong-willed child, yet has the ability to maintain that control and speak matter-of-factly to a strong-willed child?

Okay. Let me wrap this part up, and we'll wrap right into it. So when the sweet kind doesn't work, that's what we usually do. You know what? You better get your little butt up. And why that doesn't work with a strong-willed child, two reasons. One is they tend to be fight-or-flight kids. So a lot of the strong-willed kids, the more you amp it up, they're like, bring it, Dad.

And I always make the joke, I don't care if you're 6'4", 250, and jacked. I'll put $100 on the 5-year-old because they'll just own you. The other reason is this. When I become visibly irritated, what the child knows is my dad's out of control right now. And that means I'm in control. I'm winning. I'm winning. Yeah. And you know what? You could say not even I'm winning it sometimes it's i'm winning but it's also creates a lot of instability like oh i'm seven or i'm 14 and this big guy in my home who's supposed to be my dad is out of control right now and can't handle himself and i'm in control that's a lot of instability right oh yeah so so in between sweetie baby, too sweet, and yelling and screaming is this. It's me in control of myself.

Yes is my no. Yes, my no is my no. And I like this analogy, Jim. All men can relate to this. I believe every man on the planet respects other men who stay cool and calm under pressure. In a war, you don't want your platoon captain saying oh my gosh they're shooting at us right like nobody's following that dude yeah a good quarterback i mean i know people hate tom brady that's why i bring him up because it irritates people but he does have seven super

bowls he's still the goat even after this year and everything else because and here's why because when the fourth quarter came and they were losing, he didn't come in the huddle. You know what? We're down by two touchdowns. You keep fumbling. You don't know what route to run. Let's go score. Nobody's following that guy. But the quarterback who marches out onto the field, takes a knee, body posture, and says, guys, we're down by two touchdowns. We're going to march down the field, execute our play, body posture, and says, guys, we're down by two touchdowns. We're going to march down the field, execute our play, score, get the ball back, score again, break. The team follows him because he's unflappable. So how do we get there? I'll give a few things and we'll do

some stories and I'll show you. Body posture I would work on, and this is a simple one, and people say it's too simplistic, but I like simple stuff at first because it breaks patterns. How I stopped being reactive partly was I would sit down. So look, if I'm starting, if I stand up and start marching around the kitchen pacing, I want to yell at someone, right? Like if you were to stand up and put your around the kitchen pacing, I want to yell at someone, right? Like if you were to stand up and put your hands on your hips, it immediately triggers something, which is I'm upset and I want a confrontation. So I would sit down because when I sit down, it changes my body. It changes my tone of voice, right? When I'm standing up, I can point, and I can start getting Portuguese-Italian mix. Right?

And I can start gesticulating, and I don't know how. Nobody listens to me around here. And once you get amped up, look, sometimes it just feels good. Absolutely right. I had a bad day at work, and so I'm'm just gonna take it out on my family right when i sit and i began putting my feet up or crossing my legs it is virtually impossible to yell at someone when your legs are crossed and you're sitting down because you're in this relaxed pose trying to point, you feel like an idiot. And so it's just a practical thing.

Look, the real part of that was that at age eight and a half, nine, Casey was starting to get a little taller. There was a day where I stepped toward him and started to put my finger in his chest. And I realized this isn't going to end well, because Casey's now, he's a big, he's 6'2", and he's pretty jacked. And I knew that was going to end well. And I knew I couldn't keep going toe-to-toe with him. Look, if you get toe-to-toe with someone, that's what people write in. They're like, well, we confronted our son. Or I'm going to, I was like, what people write in. They're like, well, we confronted our son. I was like, confronting people never works. When has it ever, I confronted him and then he acknowledged that he was wrong. It's usually I confronted him and he hit me or I confronted him and he denied it. So there's a sitting down part. This is a weird one for guys, but I'll throw it out there.

For the next week, talk to your strong-willed child especially, like he's your business colleague. Because there's something, like at work, we don't use the same tone with our work colleagues, or even with a young protege. We don't use this snotty tone with them. Put our arm around their shoulder. We walk down the hall at the corporate office and we're like, hey, you're a good employee, man. I'm glad you're here. We've got to course correct a little bit, right?

Like that last project, nice job. But this project, you're falling short in a couple areas and I want to teach you. Yes. Right? And then he receives it better because then I talk to him while we're walking. By the way, talk to your kids while you're playing catch. Talk while you're driving. Don't do the, hey, son, we need to sit down and have a talk about your attitude. Because no child's going to be like, of course, father. Sounds fun. Sounds fun.

Yeah. Why don't you just stare at me and tell me all the reasons you're mad at me and don't like me? Well, you know, that reminds me of something. So I was doing some research, and you were talking about how to communicate with our kids in a way that would de-escalate things. And the first thing you talked about was body posture, which you just described. But then you said something else I thought was really interesting. And you said, trust me on

this. So I'm going to ask you about it. And you just alluded to it. You said, do not look them in the eye. Okay. How does that help? Tell me, talk to me about that. Okay. So here's, let me do two parts to this. One, I have to say this, and I know some of the guys will get offended and some will laugh, but your listeners will laugh. Our guys will laugh. They're used to me. Okay. So men, this is one of the things I know about all men.

We want respect more than anything else. Mommies want love, right? We want respect. And here's the noble thing about men. The reason we want respect so much is because we have lived life and we know how hard it is. And what we want is for our kids not to make the same mistakes we made. The reason I want my kids to listen to me is because I want to keep them from pain, right? That's a main goal of a guy. The problem we have as men is that we're often like wide receivers.

We feel like we get disrespected at everything, right? Isn't that like, well, my son disrespected me. I'm like, you're an NFL wide receiver, right? He just didn't want to eat his meal. That's not disrespected. Well, but I worked hard to earn that meal. I'm like, dude dude he just didn't want to eat the meal like there wasn't some deep-seated disrespect at you yeah he's just forgive me but he's just an idiot kid like you were an idiot kid yep yep the other thing with men too is we have

these we have these ideas like my dad was career military so we have these these thoughts from our childhood that we were so good and we were so this. I'm like, the reason we didn't get in trouble is because our parents weren't even around. We got on our bikes in the summer. We were gone literally all day until dinner time. We did mischievous stuff. There were no adults watching us. Today's day and age, you literally know everything that your child has done because every teacher sends a note home about every little thing of like, your son pushed someone in line at the cafeteria. And my response was, tell me when there's bloodshed. Like if he sticks a knife in the back of a kid, but I thought when he pushed

a kid was, my son's hungry, and he was just being assertive and has initiative. I kind of like that quality because boys push each other. That's what they do, right? Agreed. But when we were kids, we did all kinds of stuff. So that was kind of related to don't take everything so personally. You're a grown man. I don't care if they're 17, they're still kids, right? So the respect thing is a beautiful thing until you take everything as like, we use it as an excuse at times to distance ourselves from difficult kids, right? It's just human nature. And we well, he doesn't respect me as soon as he respects me. Then I'll have a relationship with him. And all I can tell you is you're going to go to your grave missing out on one of the best relationships you could have had because you had too much pride. And you thought it was all about respect when you were really looking at a hurting kid. Right.

And you caused some of it. No guilt blame own it right so the eye contact thing is this the strong will kids for those of you who have them they come out of the womb with boxing gloves on and they're in trouble from early age right you get the call preschool your son can't sit still in class he walks around talking to everybody. He won't follow directions. And it's the impulse control. So one thing I'd be aware of with strong will kids is they have a lot of shame inside. By the way, that's why they lie, Jim. We get so many emails. My son has integrity issues. I'm like, he doesn't have integrity issues. He lies because, watch, I have impulse controls. I'm an impulse control. I'm a little kid. I do something wrong.

I then realize that doing that wrong means some big adult in my life, whether a teacher or a parent, is going to take something away from me. What's a natural response? I'm going to lie. It's the very first thing a human did. Adam, don't eat from that tree.

Eats from that tree. Hey, Adam, who did it? She did it. Yes. It's like, so I like to not excuse things, but I like to normalize them. See, I would rather have the talk with my son. Of course you lied because you struggle with impulse control. You did something wrong. You knew you were going to get in trouble. And so you lied. That makes, see, that makes perfect sense to me. That's what everyone does, right? Every politician, right? Well, you know, I'm not perfect. I'm like come on that's that's an excuse just say it like i had impulse so so there's a shame because if you look at the story with adam what did he do immediately afterwards he realizes he's naked and puts on fig leaves to cover his shame jim

i'm looking you right in the eyes right now That's the most intense thing a human being can do. Yes. I'm in trouble. And now my big dad comes into the room and says, we need to have a talk about your behavior, young man, staring me in the eyes. That is a very overwhelming thing for a lot of kids because of the shame and the guilt. And so that's another thing that causes them to shut down. So I do eye contact when they do something well. Hey, nice choice. Good choice, my friend. Shows me you're growing up, right? Because watch, I do this joke at live events. No man ever comes home and says, hey, Jim, look at me, look at me. Good choice. I'm proud of you. Right. We don't do that. No, we want to talk. We need to talk eye to eye. Right. Yeah. Look at me, look at me when I'm talking to you. And then it's like,

and then you talk to them about what they did wrong and you ask them, why did you do it? What's the answer? I don't know. Because what human being, even as adult says, look, here's why I did it. I didn't think anybody was looking. I thought I could get away with it. And I got caught. So am I really sorry that I did it?

No, I'm just sorry that I got caught. Right? Like that would be a refrag for any politician who ever just said i thought i could get away with it and i got caught she was hot right i've been married for 30 years she was hot i thought i could get away with it and i think men would be like i can respect that i respect that he's being honest i did have sex with that woman. Yes. He was young, right? I'm married to Hillary. I didn't mean to go.

Oh, we just lost followers. No, I'm just kidding. Well, so here's the other thing too, is that I was confronted by another podcast guest that when I am looking at my strong-willed son in the eyes, what I'm saying to him is, I don't like you. I'm not smiling. I'm saying to him is I don't like you I'm not smiling I'm posturing up my eyes are telling him what he does not need or want to hear and that is I don't like you I know you might love me dad but you don't like me so when when a strong-willed

kid goes Rogue and we don't make that eye contact It also helps us to control our face from what we're maybe thinking. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's why I love. Can I do this one example for you? Love it. Yes.

Yeah. Okay. So common situation, big trigger for men is when a child talks disrespectfully, yells at your wife, right? Immediate good man thing, I want to protect. So here's how it usually goes down. And I'll make it about me. So Casey's in the kitchen talking to my wife,

and he starts to talk disrespectfully, yelling at her. Well, I'm going to get up and go in and say, Casey, how many times have I told you, you don't talk to your mother like that? Yes. Immediately will start to escalate because he's going to say something. I'm not really hearing it. Oh, by the way, can I mention this is like, guys, I want you to practice this for the next week.

I'll change your marriage. It's awesome. Listen to your wife. Simply listen without trying to convince her that you're right. Because you know how we're talking? Look, we do it with guys, other guys. I'll hear you, but the whole time you're talking, I'm formulating my response. I thought that was the only way to do it. Yeah, exactly. So practice that. Just sit in and say, you know what? That's really interesting, honey. I've never thought about it that way. And then walk away. And then text Jim or me and say, you know what? That's really interesting, honey. I've never thought about it that way. And then walk away and then text Jim or me and say, I have no idea why women think like that,

but don't say that at the moment. So I walk in and I begin to escalate and I begin laying into him for not doing his homework, not picking up his Legos. And I say personal things like, how are you ever going to be successful in life if you can't, right? And those things start to wound. So this is one of those situations then. He goes upstairs, and I would do those things like, keep it up, keep it up, young man, right? And you know what? That's provoking your children to wrath. Christian families, we only, look, all of us do it as Christians. We read certain verses that we really like, right? Like, children obey your parents,

but we leave out, like, fathers do not provoke or exasperate your children. Me saying, keep it up. You know what? You already lost your video games for one week. You want to make it two? The problem with that is the strong-willed child is child is gonna be like let's just make it four weeks and you're like now i'm gonna drop the f bomb right because right like you're like what do i do so that situation would end in tears him in his room i would come downstairs and tell my wife did you hear what your son said to me i felt justified because of what casey said, but I had provoked that. So here's a different way to handle it. So a couple of things. Before we discipline, I want to deescalate. No good discipline happens when tensions are up. It just doesn't work.

And realize the other thing is discipline. Look, as guys, if you ask most guys, discipline, well, I got to punish him. I got to give him consequences. Discipline literally means to teach. It's where we get the word disciple, right? Disciple, discipline. How did Jesus disciple us? By living his life in front of us and modeling what to do with other people. So before I go into that room, whatever you need to do to reset your brain and your heart,

right, is I've got to go in there and deescalate. So one of our phrases, and I really like this, is motion changes emotion. Motion or movement is a really good way. And this is a good one for guys because I'm not good at talking. Like, honey, do you want to use your words? Right. Which is one of the worst things you can do with an upset child. Right.

Like moms are always like, honey, do you want to talk about your feelings? I'm like, no. Right. Like they don't want to. It's that identify your feelings in the moment. I'm not a big fan of that. Yeah. Because I don't need the child to identify his feelings.

I'm pretty sure he's angry or frustrated. I'm the adult. So they're not looking to identify their emotions. What the child wants to know is, what do I do with this emotion? I'm frustrated. I'm irritated. I'm anxious. It's fight or flight. I need to know what to do with it. But I don't want to sit and talk about my emotions because I don't even know what they are. I'm just freaking out as a kid. So here are a couple examples when I walk in the room. And here's the tone of voice.

Hey, Case, I can tell you're frustrated. Listen, I grab the football. When you're ready, if you want to come outside and play catch, love to help you with whatever you're struggling with. Hey, Case, I can tell you're frustrated, quick little thing. We're not talking about our feelings. I don't even have to say I know you're frustrated, but sometimes I do like, hey, I can tell something's going on. I'm going to go in the living room and dump the Legos out.

When you're ready, if you want to come in, we could build a really cool spaceship. So here's why I like that. I like walking into the room, addressing things, but not addressing what's going on right now, then. I'm not addressing the disrespect towards your mother. I'm inviting him into an activity, right? Here's a nonverbal. I'm holding up the football. If you want to come play catch. See, I'm not saying, hey, when you're ready, we need to talk about what you just said to your mother.

He's never going to be ready. Just think how hard that is to walk into your dad's in the den like Ward Cleaver. And now I have to walk in and say, dad, I'm ready to talk about that awful thing that I just did to my mom. Like that's asking a lot. I'm ready to talk about that awful thing that I just did to my mom. That's asking a lot. And I'd like to break down the barriers to make it easier for them to confess and to talk about that. Because that's that walk of shame. As a man, when you've had a fight with your wife and one of you runs off to the bedroom,

and then you have to walk downstairs and you know she's waiting for you, that's a brutal walk. Yep, yep. What am I supposed to say? Honey, I'm a man. Sorry, right? But if she were to say, while you're walking down the stairs, hey, honey, I kind of blew it too. See, her humility would open it for you of like, honey, I really didn't. I didn't mean that. I'm really sorry.

So the motion part is a way to process and give a little space. And if you're a guy taking notes, and I'm writing it down now, space. You've got to give these kids space. That thing of like, we need to talk about it right now. You don't have to do it right now. So when you say motion changes emotion, what you're saying is give them a specific job or a task in the moment. Yes. Here's why. Look, this is me as a 56-year-old. When I'm upset and angry, what's basically happening is I feel like I'm out of control. Why do most of us get upset?

There are things that people, the government, this or whatever, business or traffic is doing that's out of my control. That always freaks us out. So in that moment, I gave him something in his control. See, building with Legos, see, you need to calm down right now, young man. How? You don't even know, and you're 40, right? You're screaming at me to calm down. Building with Legos, oh, that's within my control. Here's a busy mom with four kids in the kitchen, could be dad in the kitchen, but you can't go out and play catch with the child. But one child is upset, you could say, this is a great one too. Hey, honey,

you know what? If I were you, I'd be frustrated too. Listen, could you get the spaghetti sauce out of the pantry and open the jar for me? See, I just gave that child something he or she is in control of in the moment as a means to help them deescalate themselves. And I'll throw this out, the words, when you're ready. With a strong-willed child, if you ever say, you need to do X now, I will bet you a thousand dollars every time. No. It's normal response. When you're ready, gives them a sense of their own ownership of it. I'm going to be outside playing catch. I'm going to be building with Legos. I'm going to go do laundry. I've got a mind with my son that changed our relationship with chips and salsa. I'd say, hey, I can tell something's going on with you right now. If you want to grab some chips, I'll get some salsa.

I'll meet you out on the deck, and I'll help you with whatever you're struggling with. So that when you are ready, it's like it releases them to do the right thing. Like with strong-willed kids, if you demand it of them, resist, resist, resist. As soon as you give them a little bit of space, they will come to you, but they're coming to you of their own volition. It is the difference between a forced apology. I want an apology right now, young man. Sorry. That's what we get. Later, if they come, they're like, dad, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that. So that's leading to contrition versus forcing an apology. So I like it too for this reason.

I've drawn the child to me. We're playing catch. This is probably the biggest point to me. We're building with Legos. Typically, go to your room and imagine if God, every time we messed up or had a bad thought, which is every eight seconds for a man, said, go to your room until your attitude's different. But God says, come boldly to me in time of grace, right in time of of need so I can give you the grace come to me and what I'm demonstrating to my child in that moment is when your world is out of control mine's not I can look I can handle you you yelled at your mom I can handle that because when they get older and the stakes are higher and they do maybe get into something bad. I want them saying like, dad, I snuck out the other night or I went to this party and I did some stuff I shouldn't have done. Okay. I can handle that. Son's getting a car. Let's go for a drive. That's why like talking in the car,

going for a walk, there's no eye contact. It's less defensive response. And we're still, we're getting to the root of it. Yes. Right? So let me end on this. So let's say after a few minutes, my son walks outside and he wants to play catch because he's into sports. We're going to kick a soccer ball around. You know, the moment he walks outside, there's contrition on his part because he knows he's coming out to reconcile, right? He's not coming out just to play catch. He knows there's a talk coming, right? So there's a humility in that,

that if you think about it in that moment, you got what you wanted because now he's coming to you. So I don't address it always right away. I might say, hey, let's run a couple of plays. You go deep. And now I could say, hey, nice catch. Or I can say, hey, let's run a couple of plays. You go deep. And now I could say, hey, nice catch. Or I can say, hey, you're never going to play sports, so you better be really smart. I'm kidding. Think those things, guys. I just realized that you're strong-willed kids. Yeah, you suck at catching. You'll be a lineman. Yeah, exactly. I just want the men who have strong-willed kids to realize this because it'll save you a lot of money. A lot of them are not very athletic. And the ones who are, they are not going to practice hard. They're not. Yeah.

Just don't invest a lot of money. Don't buy the musical instruments because they're not going to take lessons. And you're going to be like, well, I paid all that money. And if you're not going to practice, I'm going to save you lots of money. Don't sign up for travel sports because you're not going to work hard. I'm like, bro, you're five foot eight. Your kid is not a D1 athlete. Well, thank you. Yeah. Ours was hockey. So we lived outside of DC and all the parents were like, well, five foot eight, you could do it. Well, they were always like, I think we got a shot. I was like, unless your child grew up in buffalo i know minnesota or canada your kid's not making it yeah right the operating assumption is your kid is not going to make it so if he does that you're blessed so but that's a whole nother story so you're

acknowledging the kids you're acknowledging what they're experiencing without drawing it out of them you're giving them a specific job to do but you said something you've said it throughout the podcast and i want to go back to this because i think for me as a parent i need to hear this you talked about humility leading to contrition so talk to me about this humility factor in dealing with a strong little child because what i want to posture up in pride right my gut love my gut was telling me to posture up but you're saying humility leads to confession a contrition right and i'll and right after this i'll do an example being tough with their kids right so people aren't like well you're just letting them get away with things because i don't like doing that either agreed it is it is that it

is that normal guy thing parent thing thing, especially in a Christian community, because we're all about authority and order and structure and all of that. You can't let your son get away. And I think we just... The best authority figures throughout my life were the ones who were good teachers. My boss, Jack Elwell, when I was a young salesperson, you know what they do when you're in sales? They do like their boss does the ride along with you. So the first day I've got my suit on, this is way back just because I'm old. So you've got a suit on, I've got everything buttoned down. Awesome, good day. He goes to his hotel. I go to the house the next morning. I pick him up, I meet him in the lobby, and he said, Martin, why aren't you

wearing crease slacks? Every day you go out there, you better look like the Kirk Martin that walked into my office the day you interviewed. And to this day, I want to go crawl on the ground before Jack Elwell, because he was like the six foot four, big, gentle giant of a man. But he told me that and he didn't yell at me. And he said, and your car better be spotless when you pick me up. That's all he said. And that whole day I was like, why didn't I wear my suit? Why didn't I wear my suit? And to this day, I don't want to let Jack Elwell down. And I haven't talked to him in 40 years because he was an authority figure in my life who didn't ream me as a young man, but he let me know in a very even matter of fact way, I have higher expectations for you. And that young man that walked into my office is the young man that I expect to be out on the street selling my products. Sticks with me till this day. And so the idea of the

authority figure, I just know with a strong willed child, if you go in like this, you're going to get pushback. And then what we do as men is we justify it. Well, he didn't, I'm the parent, he's the child. And I get that. I want your kids to listen to you. But sometimes they're not going to listen the first time. And just going all in like that, I found in emotional moments, when there's an emotional power struggle, if I go humility with a humble posture then in my attitude, it softens people. I mean, look, it's talking to people of the opposite political party, getting like, I'm right because I've got this. Nobody in all my years has said, you know what? You have so much logic. Your view is right. I'm

going to change my entire philosophical orientation. What breaks them down is when there's humility there, because that softens people. And I would say to the men out there, it will not hurt, because this is another one of apologizing to, so in that moment, the reset, like after you blew it and you did go off on your child and you reacted angrily, there's a reset there. So I've got this program that I do with men, which is really cool. It's a mentoring, but it's texting because men don't read parenting books. So I always tell women, my husband, I was like, no husband, we don't read parenting books, barely listen to the parenting podcast. But I do this text. So three times a week, they'll get a short little text and then they can text me back. But it's fascinating because so many times they're like, I was just about to yell at my son. And I was like, okay, do the reset, which is okay. I can change. I changed my body posture. A simple apology. Hey, son, I just yelled at you. But what it really was, I was anxious about my

own work. So I'm behind at work. And so I took out my own anxiety on you. I apologize. That kind of humility, like dads are always like, well, if I admit that I have some anger issues or I overreact, they're not going to respect me. I'm like, dude, they already know you have that issue. Yeah. Surprise. They watched you in traffic on Sunday morning going to church when you cut people off because you go to a big church and you want to get out early, right? They, so it actually leads them to respect you more. And again, it's the thing with our authority figure, God the Father, before, right, before we even came to him, he sent his son. That was the initial, what more humility

can you, you guys are, forgive me for lying, you guys are the screw ups, but I'm going to send my son. That's humility. That's what draws us, right? That's like, wow. And so I think a lot of it, Jim, is the old time parenting stuff and the old time kind of a little bit of that Christian authoritarian response of like, well, if we're not tough, we're going to let them get away with things. But the truth is when you lose control and yell, they end up getting away with things. But the truth is, when you lose control and yell, they end up getting away with things because now it's all about me being out of control. And now, oh, can I mention one other thing? Do you mind if I... This is for your marriage. This is not meant to be harsh, but I guarantee even among the Christian families and whoever's

listening, even non-Christian men, so many of our wives are counting down the days till the kids go off to college because here's what they labor under every day. I've got these kids and I walk around trying to manage their emotions. And then the big guy that I married comes into the scene and now he's getting frustrated. Now he's yelling and we can't even sit at the dinner table without my husband correcting my four-year-old son because he can't sit still at the dinner table. So now watch and I did this to my wife. I did this. I placed her in this uncomfortable position. I would start laying into Casey and she had to decide am I going to step in and protect my son because if I do I undermine my husband's Authority yeah that will wear down your wives because every day and many

of you have homeschooling wives who are just trying to get through the day teaching three little kids who don't want to listen and they're managing their emotions. And then when we walk into the room and we can't control ourselves, they start to check out. And they're like, I thought I married a man, but now I've got four kids. Because now I've got to walk on eggshells around you or before you come home, guys, guys, dad's on his way home. Remember to pick everything up because dad can't handle it when there's a mess on the floor. And now everybody learns. And look, this has really far reaching besides the fact that your wife will begin to lose respect for you because she's got to manage your emotions now. And I

guarantee you, some of your wives cannot have a hard talk with you because you have dismissed her every time she brought something. Oh, honey, you're just overreacting. Oh, honey, listen to her. It doesn't mean she's always right. It doesn't. But she's saying something. And if she said it 15 times, we got to take it seriously. Otherwise, she will begin to shut down. And in her mind, she begins to think, you know what, when that last one is off to college, I'm gone. Or even before. Yeah. Yeah. So we see it all the time when the kids grow out of the house, the wife is gone. So here's, so here's a fun part to that too, which I always joke, not really joke about, you know,

that previous example where Casey's yelling at my wife and I go out and play catch. I guarantee you, if your wife looks outside and she sees you playing catch with your son, instead of yelling at him, she will want you, right? Because men want respect. We want money and we want sex, right? We do. Your wife, when she looks outside and she doesn't have to cringe and wonder what you're saying, because our wives will always love their kids more than you. It's just the way that it is, right? If you have to

choose between which one am I going to leave, you're just going to be like, sorry, big dude, I'll take half of what you own, but I'm not leaving my kid. And so when she looks outside or she peers into the living room and you're sitting on the floor patiently building with Legos with a kid who just said something really awful, but you're being patient and calming it down, I promise she will begin to want you a lot because you just took the burden off of her and you just loved and held the heart of the thing that she loves more than anything in this world. So if men, if you want to remember this, if I stay calm, my wife will have more sex with me. I'm good with that. That's the takeaway. That's the takeaway. No, hey, I'll tell you what, man. Kirk, this is so

powerful and there's so much here. I need to have more of Kirk Martin in my life. How do our guys follow you? How do our guys get ahold of your resources? I just look up, probably the best thing is the Calm Parenting Podcast. I try to keep them 10 to 15 minutes long, sort of short and sweet. And listen to that. If you need anything, reach out. Just email us. It's on celebratecalm.com. I answer, Jim, I'm like you.

I have a special affinity for working with men because when a man humbles himself and emails and says, hey, dude, I'm really struggling. I'm like, I'm all in. Because, look, in all of our years, I joked about this recently at a live conference. I've never in 20 years gotten an email from a man like at midnight. Hey, I'm really worried about my child. I'm really struggling. It's always from a mom to one in the morning. Yeah. Right. And so if a guy reaches out and is like, look, I've got to break some of these patterns. How do I do it? I will, I will work with you until you're 90, right. To get that done.

So what's the cool part about your podcast? You do it with your son. Yeah. And so that's special. Yeah. Yeah. And he's, he's an awesome, he's, he's an awesome kid. And it's helpful because when people write in to Casey, he gets to respond, oh, you're basically describing me.

I was just like your four-year-old. I was just like your 17-year-old. But now it's a bonding thing for us, so it's kind of cool to do. That's so cool. Man, I sure appreciate you coming on the show. And, man, this is – hey, guys, if we're going to do a takeaway today, I'm going to go back to something Kirk said earlier on. Try this for one week. Talk to your child like a work colleague. See how that works.

So Kirk, thanks so much for coming on the show. We are so blessed to have you, man. I look forward to our guys going headlong into your resources. I'd love to give you back on and talk a little bit more in detail about some of these other topics that you're so passionate about. Jim, it's awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate what you're doing. Thanks, Kirk. Have a great day, man. You too. See ya. This week's man law is from Christopher Ryan on Instagram. And he noticed while he was walking down the street, a man pushing a stroller, but he noticed something interesting about that man, thus the man law. Here it is.

Whatever you do, never push a stroller with two hands. If you're a man, you have to do it with just one. That is so true. That is so good. Thank you, Chris. Hit us up at our website with your physical address. We will send you some swag just to say thank you. And guys, also, while you're on our website, make sure you pick up my book,

Tell Them What Great Fathers Tell Their Sons and Daughters. Sign up to join one of our virtual teams. As you heard earlier from Bill in our hero story at the beginning of the podcast, our virtual teams are game changers. Until next time, feel the wet sand on the arena floor. Hear the deafening roar of the crowd. Taste the sweetness of victory.

Smell the stench of battle. Get in the game. Get dirty. Grind it out. And be a man.