Calm Parenting Podcast - Outright Defiance/Refusal: My Best Podcast of 2024

Episode Date: June 9, 2024

Outright Defiance/Refusal: My Best Podcast of 2024 Do you have a child who ever acts outright defiant or refuses to do what you ask? Who then has attitude? How do you handle this without being authoritarian (fear, escalating) or being too sweet (getting walked all over and creating an entitled child)? Kirk shows you how to teach your child while staying connected through defiance, anger, and hostile words. This may be the best and most foundational podcast of 2024. Take the extra time and listen. Our Summer Sale continues this week. Visit https://celebratecalm.com/products to purchase the Get Everything Package at the lowest prices of the year. The Calm Parenting Podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. Take a moment. Visit https://BetterHelp.comcom/CALM today to get 10% off your first month. Visit https://drinkAG1.com/calm for a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D3K2 AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs with your first purchase. AirDoctor comes with a 30-day money back guarantee so if you don’t love it, just send it back for a refund, minus shipping! Head to https://airdoctorpro.com/ and use promo code CALM and you’ll receive UP TO $300 off air purifiers! Today my listeners receive 20% OFF any AquaTru purifier! Just go to https://AquaTru.com and enter code “CALM “ at checkout. Go to https://CrunchLabs.com/calm to sign your kids up for Camp CrunchLabs today! Use https://CrunchLabs.com/calm to get 2 boxes FREE, which is a $60 value. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Calm Parenting Podcast listeners get an exclusive 20% off an IXL membership when you sign up today at ixl.com slash kirk. Visit ixl.com slash kirk to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. So when our strong-willed son Casey was about 10, I walked into his room one Friday evening and I said, hey, Case, remember you need to rake the leaves tonight. And his response was, of course, father, I wasn't having a good time texting my friends or playing video games. I was hoping you give me additional chores so I could learn the value of hard work and responsibility, sir. Yeah, that's not what he said. Some of you are lucky.

You may have a more compliant child, or you have perfect family members that have those kids that just comply right away of like, okay, right away. Or maybe they'll push the limits and say, you know what, I know you wanted me to do it at six o'clock. Could I do it at 6.15? But the strong-willed child will often come back at you. And so here was our

son's response. He didn't even look up at me. He just said, I don't have to. Oh, what are you going to do when your child is just outright defiant to you, refuses to do what you ask. Look, some of you have tried this. We can go all authoritarian, how I was raised, but you've done that already. And people have judged you. You just need to be tougher with that kid. And you've done that. It doesn't work with this child. And I'll explain why in a minute. But you also don't want to get walked all over or create an entitled child. And you also don't want to be fearful of approaching these situations. So I want to show you a different way to handle this. And that's what we're going to discuss on today's episode of the Calm Parenting Podcast. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing this with others. Thank you for subscribing to the show. My name is Kirk Martin, founder of

Celebrate Calm. You can find us at CelebrateCalm.com. If you for subscribing to the show. My name is Kirk Martin, founder of Celebrate Calm. You can find us at CelebrateCalm.com. If you need help with anything, especially as you're listening to our programs on that app and you have questions and need clarification, email Casey, C-A-S-E-Y, at CelebrateCalm.com. It's the very kid I'm talking about, but now he's a grown adult. And so if you need help with our programs, figure out which ones you want, need help financially, setting up an event, whatever.

Casey will take care of you. He's awesome for other people. So let's get back to this. So I walk into the room and I say, hey, remember tonight, you've got to rake the leaves. And his response was, I don't have to.

Now, really important. When you become more calm and in control of your emotions, it doesn't mean you're a Zen master, right? In that moment, I wanted to wring his neck. I wanted to be resentful, tell him about all the sacrifices he had made so that he could have such a great life and talk about how bad my childhood was. And if I had ever said that to my father, I would have found myself on the floor. I want to say all those things. I want to wring his neck. I want to yell at him. I wanted to do all of those things. And to be honest, for many of those things, you'd be justified in yelling at your child and telling how your childhood was. But it doesn't do anything. It doesn't help. And the whole idea of being calm is calm is not the end goal. It just helps me see if I just react all the time, I blow up situations

every time. And I end up not even disciplining well. I end up just using fear and intimidation. That's not teaching. That's just fear. Or I get walked all over and I don't want either of those things happening. So I want you to know if you feel frustrated and angry and resentful, that's normal. You should feel that way. I just don't want you to react out of those feelings and frustration because it just doesn't work and it blows up situations. So how did I react in this situation? I'm going to share one way to handle this and then a few days, I think three days from now, I'm going to do another bonus podcast showing some different ways to handle chores and things like this. But I love

this example. And so before I tell you how I handled it, I do want to clarify a few things. So we have two extremes, and I see this on Instagram all the time, right? It's these two extremes of like, well, you know what? If I had said that as a kid, I'd have been knocked on the ground. And I'm like, okay, well, that'll work to change the outward behavior for a little while. But strong will kids are fight or flight kids. Or you know what? Let's say this, fight and flight, because they may go underground for a little bit and they'll just do what you want them to do to avoid that harshness. They may, but you know what they're doing? They're storing up that anger and it's pushing it deeper and deeper inside of them

until they get old enough where they feel comfortable coming after you. And then you will unleash that. And sometimes they will, if it's a dad doing this, they'll take it out on their mother or on their siblings. And I'll give you this warning too. A lot of boys do this. They internalize that anger. And what happens in the teen years and later, they're like, you know what? My dad's always thought I was a failure. Guess what? F him. I'll shut down and not do anything. What are you going to do? Take away all my stuff? You already did that when I was seven. And this becomes a situation you don't want. Look, we get judged all the time on these Instagram posts. You know what? If you would have disciplined your son when he was three,

when he was young, he wouldn't be disrespectful as a teenager. You know, it's total BS, total BS. We were the most rigid parents at first because my dad was career military, my way or the highway. So guess what? That's what I grew up with. That's what we did to Casey. We taught him. That's not the way you everything that the hardcore people want me to do. We did. And many of you have done that also. And that authoritarian way does not work with these kids. And I challenge you, if you ever read history books, go look at the impressionists. They were all artists and most of them had lawyer dads or business dads who were authoritarian. And it just has never worked in history.

Well, it's worked for thousands of years. No, it hasn't. Look at society. If that way had worked, our world wouldn't be the way it is. It engenders a lot of frustration and anger. So then what has happened is we've gone all the way to the other extreme. And this is also, it doesn't work and it's not good what we're doing with our kids. You know what, honey, we're a family here. And so everyone has to do their part. It hurts

mommy when you refuse to help. That sounds so weak. It is so patronizing and it makes kids angry and it makes you sound weak. And here's the other one that I want you to watch out for because I see it all the time. Well, my son, my daughter just must be dysregulated right now, and that's why he's refusing. No, stop that. Kids are humans. Humans can be selfish and self-centered, and they simply want their own way. There's no shame in saying that. There are times where when I'm tired, or maybe I'm not, I just don't want to do it the way someone else wants to do it. I have my moments where I'm self-centered and it's all about me. There's no shame in that. I know that it's wrong and it's selfish,

but I'm not saying that, oh, kids are awful when they're... That's what people do. And I also want you to know this. It's not always something deeper that needs to be understood. You've heard in a lot of our podcasts where I get to the root of it. When a child is melting down, I'll say, hey, something else is going on. You're hungry. You're frustrated. You're anxious, right? The anxiety. I think I just did one on anxiety. Anxiety will cause kids to be extremely defiant. Well, that's when I get to the root of it. But in this case, there's not always something to be understood. Sometimes kids are testing you, and they're testing your boundaries, and that's their job. And so in this particular instance,

this wasn't, oh, my son had had a hard day at school. He was in a fight with one of his friends. He was feeling bad about himself. So he was just defiant. This is not one of those cases. And it's really important for you as a parent to understand how to read the moment and how to distinguish between those things. Otherwise, if we go with that, well, I

think he's just dysregulated. You missed the whole point of this. This child was testing you. Look, those little kids as early as three, those daughters, right? I shouldn't say those daughters. Your daughters that look at you and say, I hate you, mommy. Oh, you must not be feeling good. Oh, no. She knows exactly what she's doing because she knows that's going to trigger you. They know what they're doing. It doesn't mean they're awful. It doesn't mean I shame them. I can't believe you would say that to your mother. There's no need for that reaction. But if you don't listen, hear anything else, it would be worth us to go through that to know. I want to hit somewhere in between, not authoritarian, but also not getting walked all over. It's not always

either or. So let's go through this story. It's not the way I would handle it all the time, but this one, I was reading the moment this is how we have to do it so in that moment with direct outright defiance I don't have to in this case I simply walked away later on when he didn't do it I said I brought it up one more time

and I said hey it's getting dark you gonna do the leaves nope I don't have to and I said, hey, it's getting dark. You're going to do the leaves? Nope, I don't have to. And I said, okay. So what I've just learned is we just established in this home that we don't have to do things other people want us to do. And I went about my night. He walked off because sometimes Casey will get full of himself. That happens at times. I have about three times, I've got some great stories on this. And to this day, Casey and I will joke about it. Remember that time at that hotel in Las Vegas, right? And anyway, it was one of the greatest moments of his childhood that humbled him so badly.

It was awesome. I'll tell it sometime. So this is one of those moments. So what happens? He walks away full of himself. He's like, sweet. I told my dad I didn't rake the leaves. So I go to bed.

Here's what I knew. The next morning, he has a hockey game. He was really into hockey. Now, let me just go with a story because I want to say so many things. So I go to bed. I got up early the next morning because I knew what was coming. And if you're going to handle it in a tough way, I want you to make sure that you're emotionally ready. Don't choose your battles. Don't fall on the sword when you're tired and frustrated. It won't work.

I got up early. I went for a run. I got back. I had my healthy breakfast. I'm downstairs early reading the paper in the living room like Ward Cleaver, ready for it to happen. I had told my wife, hey, this might be one of the mornings when you want to go have coffee with one of your girlfriends.

Because it's going to be ugly. So, Casey walks down. Casey didn't walk. Casey marched. We were just at a coffee shop after the gym. Because we go to the gym and then we go and I get a chocolate croissant at this little place. And I watch this mom come in. Mom and dad with two daughters. And the one daughter comes in, she's got like fire in her eyes. She's chewing gum.

And I was like, Ooh, that girl's going to make me money. So, right. Cause their parents are going to have to buy our programs. I, you know, I'm kidding with that, but it is kind of fun, right? You're like, Oh, there's a strong will child. And there's her sister who is the compliant one. And you can see it within like 15 seconds of them coming into this coffee shop of how they behave. It is so fun to watch now. And so in this case, Casey came marching down the stairs. Dad, we have to go to the rink. Got a game. And I said, said well I don't have to take you well what was his response you know what dad fair enough we established that I didn't rake your leaves so you don't have to take me to the game fair enough of course he didn't say that see then you get this seriously and you can see their face

their little mouth is twisted seriously it? It's in that defiant little tone dripping with disdain for you. And you want to take their little mouth and crunch it all up, right? Again, you know what I'm saying. I don't advocate physical stuff with these kids or emotional or mental stuff with these kids, but you can be tough. So please hear that. But you know what I mean when they go, seriously? Seriously? All I did was not rake some leaves. And I said, I know, but we established, and listen to the tone. I'm not being snotty. We established last night that as a family, we don't have to do things for each other. Now, really important point. I know in one respect, this is kind of provoking him. And I'm very much against provoking kids to anger.

I don't believe in that. In this case, though, I was teaching and I wanted this to hit home. And I knew it was going to get ugly first. So I was like, what case we establish that? Seriously, there were just some stupid leaves. Why did he say stupid? Because we were raised in a home and we tried to raise him. You don't use the word stupid in our home.

Look, some of you that have those rules, that's why your kids say it. Because they know it's a trigger for you. So he said that. And inside, I get defensive. You know what? They're not stupid leaves. I planted that tree that bore those leaves. You're not going to say that about my tree. Another principle, don't take it personally.

We do that all the time. You know, here's an interesting point to think about because people, again, on Instagram, well, if you trained your son the right way, he'd never talk to you like that. I'm like, really? Okay. Look, I don't give power over people to disrespect me or offend me. Think about it this way. My child cannot disrespect me if I don't give him that power to do so. It's like you can't say something on Instagram to offend me if I don't take offense. Does that make sense? It's a different way to look at it. But I don't give him that power. I'm not taking that as disrespect. I can't believe that my son would talk. Of course he's going to talk to me that way. He came out of the womb, this hard-charging kid. My job is to take all that great hard-charging nature of his, how he marched, and I've got to funnel that. I've got to teach him through that. I job is to take all that great hard charging nature of his, how he marched, and I've

got to funnel that. I've got to teach him through that. I've got to soften those edges. I want to keep enough edge there that he's able to do amazing things in life without ruining his life and offending all kinds of other people, right? So he comes at me like serious, stupid leaves. I don't take it personally. Here's another principle. Was my son in that moment mad at me? Not really. He was angry at himself because he knew he messed up because the prior night he had a very clear choice and he thought he was full of himself and decided not to rake those leaves. And he knew, but now he's being held accountable. And people are always like, well, my child doesn't like it when we correct him. Who does? Do any of you like being called into your boss's office? Hey boss, tell me

all the things that I'm doing wrong so I can get better. Nobody really likes to be corrected. And by the way, watch the language with that. Because as dads sometimes, I'm going to do a special dad's podcast next week, but it's about, it's like my job is to correct my child. Correction. The word just carries so much heavy weight and negativity. I don't correct people. I try to teach them through and with humility. That's a lot different. So let me stay on track, but I hope this is helpful breaking this down in this way of what's going through your head because you're going to have a war in your head. I need to nip this in the bud. I need to smack this situation down right now and lay into him

or he's going to grow up and be an entitled kid. No, just roll with me here. So he says, stupid leaves, I'm not taking it personally. He wasn't mad at me. He was beating himself up and I could see it. I could see the switch inside. Part of the reason I want to learn how to control myself. And so I need, I don't need you to do anything. It's your life. If you go through those programs, the first program is to go through is the 30 days to calm. And then dads, you do the men's programs, moms, you is to go through is the 30 Days to Calm. And then dads, you do the men's programs.

Moms, you do the mom's program. And it's all about that internal work so that you can, in this situation, slow your world down enough that you're not taking offense. You're not taking it personally. You're not reacting and blowing it up. You're seeing it with clarity. And now you're teaching and problem-solving through this. So what's his next go-to? You know what? What if I go out and I rake the leaves right now? Then can we go? Not how it works, Case. Right? Because now they're going, fine. And now he starts stomping through the house,

stomping up the stairs. What does he do when he gets to his bedroom? He slams his bedroom door because that's one of my triggers. Because when he was little, it was like, you know, you don't have to respect me, but you're going to respect my door. So he did it on purpose. Why? Because he wanted to provoke me. He wanted me to come marching up those stairs, barge into his room, say, you know what? All I should do was some simple thing, rake the leaves, and watch what happens when we go here. You know what? You never, you never do anything I tell you to do. From the time you were little, you never did stuff. You don't do it now,

and you're probably never going to be successful in the future. How are you ever going to keep a job, young man, if you can't see See where that goes? Very, very easily. Look, I'm sitting in a room and just did that. I felt the look on my face. I felt the venom. I felt the resentment toward my son for making my life so difficult because he can't do one simple effing thing easy. And that's all about me. And we begin to curse our children. We curse their past. You've always, you've never, you're not doing it now and you'll be a failure

in the future. And if you want to put a lot of anger inside your kids, do that. But you don't want to go there. These kids will not roll over. They're not going to roll over on you. So he said that, slams the door. I sat there and read my paper. Did I really read my paper? No, because I was conflicted with emotion because I wanted to go upstairs and read him the Rydak because that's what you're supposed to do. And some of you are going to be like, well, he just must be so dysregulated right now. I think I'll bake him a pie. No, I'm not going there either. He knew what he was doing and he's angry at himself. So I waited. Guess what he did? Comes marching through the living room. Stupid leaves. I don't know why I have to do the stupid leaves. Now I'm going to be late for the game. I'm not going to be able to do it. Now my coach is going

to be upset and all these things. Again, that's kind of a passive aggressive way because he still wanted me to react or give in and take them. Look, I am comfortable with my child's disappointment. This is a whole separate podcast. It's in our programs. Again, listen to those because you have to internalize this, that there are going to be times of conflict. And some of you like me, see, I grew up in a home with a lot of conflict. I associate conflict with bad. Conflict means my mom's getting hit. Conflict means that my older brother's getting destroyed by my father. Conflict to me, guess what I did as the third born? I hid.

And so most of my life, I have hid from things. And in our marriage, that was a big problem because conflict comes whenever you have relationships. So watch this trauma match from hell. I marry a wife who has abandonment issues. Guess what? She brings something up. Uh-oh, that's conflict. Conflict is bad.

I will run from it. Further triggers her abandonment issues. All these things just come back to us. No blame, don't guilt. Don't blame yourself for this. One of the things I've learned is to say, yeah, when I was a little kid, my willingness to hide was smart. The little kid that was me was brilliant because you know what it did? It kept me from being hit and it kept me safe. And you know what else it did in the end? I learned to read people. I learned to observe situations. I could tell when my dad got home from work how he closed the door of his Chevy Impala back in the day, I could tell what was about to happen in our home, whether I needed to go hide from it or whether I knew I was

going to get the dad who was like, hey, let's go play catch in the backyard. And so these things serve you well when you're a kid, they keep you safe, but then they sabotage your life and your relationships when you get older. And that's why you have to do this they keep you safe, but then they sabotage your life and your relationships when you get older. And that's why you have to do this work and be very, very patient with yourself and don't beat yourself up. We all have these things. So I don't know where I was in the story right there.

And I'm asking you for a little bit of patience here because that's why I like not scripting it out because these things come out. So I'm wrestling with all of these, all of these things inside of me now. And so, because I, I didn't learn how to handle conflict. And one of the things we teach you is how to handle conflict and how to sit in the discomfort of it. My son, I love my son. Even when I was, even when I was kind of a harsh dad with him, when he was young, when I tell those stories, I loved my son. I took him out. We did a lot of stuff together. I just wasn't patient. I was always on him. But I loved him. And now he's really mad at me. And I know he's missing his

hockey game, something he loves. So I'm sitting in that living room with all of this conflict. And he comes through the room trying to get me to be more uncomfortable. So I finally give in and I don't. And I sat there, but I didn't ratchet it up. You know what? Watch the petty stuff. You know what? If you would have just raked the leaves like I asked to last night, there's no need for that. And that just further escalates. He's already beating. Look, your kids already know what they do. They already know what's wrong. That's why they lie and blame. You don't have to keep hammering them for things. That's why they won't tell you things sometimes because you just lecture too much and you just keep on.

You know, if you would have just done your leaves, raked them when I told you to, you wouldn't have been doing all this stuff. There's no need for that. You just further drive that. Now that's, see, that's shaming him. That's driving that anger deeper inside of him. And there's no need for it. That's our own pettiness as parents, because you know what I'm doing? I'm lashing out. You're making me so uncomfortable right now with you being upset that I'm anxious and I'm upset. So I'm going to put it back on you. Watch. We were in a cycle that would have been a cycle of beating each other up over things because now you have an immature dad with an immature kid going back at each other. And that's why we have to grow up. So finally, finally, he comes downstairs. Fine, I'll go rake your stupid leaves.

Now, some of you, including me, will want to jump up off the sofa right then and be like, you know what, little snot? I've been patient with you. I've been waiting. And then you come in the room and use that word stupid and do that. You know what? Enough is enough. No, you've got to be patient with this.

So he comes in. That's his last little gasp, right? That's his last attempt to get you. But I didn't say anything. So he goes out to the, down to the garage, gets the rake, goes out to the backyard. Now I look out the window. What's he doing? He's not just raking up my leaves. He's raking so hard. He's pulling up my grass. Now, now I want to go right now. I'm really angry because I'm like the little snot. All I used to do is rake some simple leaves. Why does he have to make it so difficult? And now he's raking up my grass. And that's when I wanted to be like ream him. I took a couple minutes and I thought, this is a learning opportunity. My goal here isn't to punish.

Look, it's not to punish, but it's also not to let him off the hook. Can you see that? It's not the either or. Well, you're so soft, you let him get. He's not getting away with a thing here. Look, I let pass his human reaction, which is you're stupid. I hate you and dumb leaves. And I'm not going to do it. I'm going to slam my door. Fine. It's what immature people and what all of us do when we're upset. I let that go so that I didn't escalate it. But he didn't go to his game and he's raking the leaves in my grass.

But I also didn't, I also didn't give in. Well, I can just tell that you're dysregulated this morning. Do you want to talk about your emotions? There was nothing. This was outright defiance. He wanted to see where the boundaries were. And I want you to know, because some of you are coming from this, this kind of too soft thing. And it's like, no, kids will just all... No, sometimes they test the boundaries, and they need to find out where they are. And they do it in a calculating way. Are you saying kids are calculating and manipulative? I'm saying they're human beings, and we all do that stuff.

There's no shame in that. I'm not shocked that a child or a 40-year-old would do those things. We all do it. And so it's not either or. So I wait a few minutes. I go out to the garage. I grab a rake. I go out into the backyard. I start raking leaves. So am I saying anything right now? No, because a lot of words tend to provoke kids to anger. And for my more conservative and even sometimes religious friends, it's like, well, he just needs to learn. He was it. I was like, no, you're missing the point where it's no fathers, mothers do not provoke your

children to anger. Some of you have kids that do that. You blame, oh, he's a rebellious, defiant child. Sure, it's human nature. And you know what else? Sometimes you provoke them to anger with your own anger, with the fact that you can't control yourself, with the fact that you talk too much and lecture too much. That's provoking. And so I just sat for a couple minutes. I raked up the leaves while he was raking up my lawn and so I had to control myself and so at one point I finally spoke up and I just said,

hey Case, remember when you were little we used to rake up the leaves, put them in a pile and jump on? You want to do that? And you know what? Do you know what this son, do you know what he did to me? He turned his back on me. Do you know, to this day, one of the things I'm most proud of in my life, that I did not crack him over the head with my rake. I'm being facetious there. I don't do the physical stuff. But I wanted to, right? Because you don't turn your back on your father. It's one of the highest forms of disrespect that you can give to another human being is to turn your back. Why do you think he did it? Because your kids are so smart and they know your triggers. He didn't have to say anything.

He turned his back to me and he knew that that is like an in-your that's an f you dad in that moment and so look I don't know why I'm being so emotional but there's so much in here you know what it is because for some of us if you don't handle that the right way you are going to lose your relationship with this child and with your spouse and it will last a long time. And so there's the negative part, but you know what the other part is? You're going to miss out on that because I will tell you, I fought, Casey and I fought so long. We fought through to rebuild this and he's getting married this year. I hope they're going to, maybe they're going to have grandkids one day. My relationship with Casey, we are so incredibly close, partly because we fought through this so hard together. And he did hard work, and I did hard work. There is an enormous

amount of respect between us, precisely because we're so much alike so we know how hard it is not to be a jerk to each other. There's something beautiful and deep in that and I don't want you to miss out on that because for the guys, well, just get rigid or this way my dad did it. Break the generational pattern.

Break the pattern. You get to choose that and i know some of you it's so deep inside of you and you're unwinding this and deconstructing this stuff and it's tough because you have things from your childhood and those of you especially those you grew up in kind of religious families it's so deep inside of there how you're supposed to treat children and do this and when you stop doing that, you get judged by literally everybody in your family, everybody in your church. And you're like, I know this isn't the right way. I know it. And then you went too far the other way. And now you're just letting kids

walk all over you all the time. And you're like, well, this isn't working either. And I hope this approach is somewhere where it's right in between. And so this moment, I didn't react to him. I just started raking up the leaves into a pile. And one of the things that is, this is hard for a lot of people and hard for a lot of men is humility. Humility breaks down walls. You can't attack these kids. They're fight or flight and they will, they don't care about the consequence. They don't. And they will push you. I get it. It's hard. But humility leads kids to contrition. You can try to break them, right? That was that old school advice. There were some main leaders when we were young parents who were like, can try to break them, right? That was that old school advice. There were some main leaders when we were young parents who were like, you need to break your child's will.

And I was like, he's not a freaking horse, right? It's not an animal we're dealing with here. It's not, for those of you who are religious, it's not the way it's actually read the book that you're supposed to be reading and you'll see that's not how it was handled. It's frustrating for me because lives are ruined over this stuff and it's not and it's very clear that that other way doesn't work and so humility. I had every right as the dad to say young man you're not going to treat me like that. You know what? No hockey this week. No hockey game next week.

And we already talked about this in a previous podcast. That's scorched earth now. You already took away everything I care about in life. What do I have left? And now they'll intentionally do things wrong. And older kids will start vaping and drinking and everything to get back at you. And so I didn't need to go there. So I raked the leaves up into a pile. I put my rake down and some of you are going to be like, oh, you're being too soft. Okay. So, and I get that. I get

that impulse. Do you think this was easy for me? It's not my, this is not my nature to do this. I'm an intense type A guy who was raised by a career military father. I rake up a little pile. I put my rake down and I went and I jumped into the pile of leaves and I laid there feeling like an idiot because my son is still raking up the grass. He's deep into the dirt now. And I'm looking up and thinking, nice job with this whole stupid calm stuff. This doesn't work. And I wait there and I wait there and I'm patient. Just roll with me here. So then I see, I see my son put his rake down. That's the moment.

See the moment that my son, darn it, I hate doing this. The moment my son put his rake down was the moment that his heart changed. It wasn't because I threatened him. It wasn't because I bribed him. It was because I led him to, darn it, it was because, usually I have better control of this, it was because I led him to that moment. For once, I did it right. And when I put my rake down jumped in those leaves after he'd slammed the door and said my leaves were tree was stupid and after he called me names and after he turned his back on me it's relentless you have to be relentless with this stuff and I put my rake down jumped in the leaves and I gave him some space

and time. The moment he put that rake down, that was the whole point. That's what I was waiting for. And the rake goes down and he comes and he jumps into the leaves and we're laying there, two guys laying next to each other. What do you think happened right away? Nothing. I was waiting for hours for an apology. Okay, Case, you know what? It might be a good time to finally apologize to your father. But it didn't come right away. You know you were just disrespectful and defiant to your dad or to your mom. He knew he was wrong the whole time. He knew it. And so I didn't have to demand it. But eventually, guess what I hear? Hey, dad, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said those things to you I should have just raked the leaves last night and I said you're darn right no I didn't I wanted to because I'm a dude and you're

gonna feel like jumping all you know what well next time you I hope you remember next time not to go through all this we could have avoided all this you could have been at your hockey game now and you there's no need for that there's no need need for that. He said, I'm sorry. I should have done it last night. And so a father and a son are laying in the leaves right now. We're together. We're connected. He apologized. He raked the leaves and more. He didn't do it the right way. But did he learn his lesson? Yes.

We had a code word throughout his teen years. You know what it was? Rake leaves? I guess rake leaves? That was a little bit of that reminder of like Pride Fall. That was the Vegas story. Look, we were in Vegas passing through. And of course, I wanted to show my son how great Vegas was. And it was actually really disappointing.

It's filled with families. There's no like bad stuff. This is teenage years. There weren't like people falling down like in the streets and all that stuff. And I was like, this is very disappointing. I was hoping to show you what happens when you drink too much and do stuff. But it was actually pretty tame. So we're leaving the hotel the next morning and we go to the car and I was like, Case, you have the keys. He's like, no, I don't. You did. You have them. I was

like, Case, I'm pretty sure you had the keys. And so he says, he said, oh, darn it. I forget the exact words. I'll have to share it another time. But he said something like, you're wrong. Enjoy. And walked away. And it was so filled with disrespect and disdain of like, enjoy. So he goes up to our room, comes down with the keys, and his face, it was priceless. And all I said was pride fall. And again, that was a code word, pride fall. Hey, rake leaves. He learned.

So in a couple days from now, I'll do another podcast on how to handle this in different ways and how to do kind of an even tougher form. Listen to this one again if it helps because there's so much in here. It's hard. I hope you will look, get the programs. It gives me 30 plus hours to teach you. Start with yourself. You will become a new person. You get to download it to an app. You have it forever. You can share with your spouse. You can share it with your spouse. You can share it with teachers on your own devices. And you can listen every day. So this gets internalized into you and you become a new person.

It's way cheaper than therapy. If you need help with it, just reach out to Casey. This is a little longer than I expected, but this is really good. Thanks for, do share this. Subscribe to the podcast. If we can help you in any way, it's what we exist to do. So thank you. Love you all. Bye-bye.