Calm Parenting Podcast - Straight Up Defiance: 7 Ways to Stop It.

Episode Date: July 9, 2023

Straight Up Defiance: 7 Ways to Stop It. Do you have a child who is defiant, oppositional, backtalks, or rolls his eyes? Kirk shows you how to be tough, get respect, and get to the root of the issue to stop this in your home. Extremely helpful and in-depth podcast—so please share it. Our Christmas in July Sale Continues This Week! Get our lowest prices on the Get Everything Package and the Calm Parenting Package. Want to talk with Kirk directly and come up with a game plan for your family? Kirk will work with you individually, or together with your spouse, to get you on the same page and help with the toughest parenting situations you haven’t been able to solve. These calls are a game-changer. Click here to learn about mentoring packages.  Questions? Need help deciding on the best tools for your family? Email [e-mail] and Casey will help you personally! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Calm Parenting Podcast listeners get an exclusive 20% off an IXL membership when you sign up today at ixl.com slash kirk. Visit ixl.com slash kirk to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. So I remember when Casey was in his early teen years and there were certain times where I could tell he just was angry at me or didn't agree with me and he was defiant. And at times I would look at him and say, I know you just flipped me off in your head. What I want you to know is it's not going to work and that doesn't lead to anything good. So if you're angry, if you're frustrated, you disagree with me, I'm good with that. Let's go for a walk and talk. When you're

ready, I'll listen to you. I'll problem solve with you all day long. But if you think that you're going to talk to me like that or talk to mom like that, it's not going to work well for you and it's not going to work in my home. That happened occasionally. Casey was defiant. We had about 1,500 so-called defiant children in our home. About 800 or 900 of those were diagnosed with something called opposition defiant disorder, ODD. Now, I have a bias here. I hate that diagnosis because while I know it's real, I think it's very rare, but it's thrown around all the time and put on kids who are not oppositionally defiant and they don't have a disorder. Are they strong-willed? Absolutely. Do they want their own way? Yes, of course they do. Do they sometimes or oftentimes backtalk? Do they push against authority figures? Absolutely.

But they don't have a disorder and they're not oppositionally defiant because I've seen them in lots of situations. And when they're around a mentor or someone who believes in them, who challenges them, who is even tough on them, but understands them, they're not oppositionally defiant. When they're outside the home, a lot of times they're amazing kids with big hearts, right? And so, but we put this label on these kids as defiant. And again, I have a bias. I don't think most kids are just being defiant. I think their outward behavior and the manifestation, the outward expression of what they do is absolutely defiant towards you. But if I were to describe these kids, I would describe them as frustrated. They're very bright.

They have an agenda. They have an idea of how they want things to go. They don't like to be told how to do things. They are stove touchers and they want to figure it out themselves. And when people come along and tell them to do things, they want to do the opposite of that. That's called being oppositional. I am oppositional. I don't like doing things the way people tell me to do it.

I want to figure it out on my own, even if it's harder that way, even if I have to suffer worse consequences that way. That is the way I was made. It is the way I've always been been it is not an excuse because I will take the negative consequences of that because it has served me well in my life now I'm older I'm more mature so I know when to lay that down and humble myself sometimes and I know when to use that as fuel when people say you can't do that. I'm like, oh, bring it. And that's

what I want you to learn how to teach your kids. So on this podcast, as you can tell, I'm a little bit fired up and I'm going to ask you to give me some latitude here because I didn't script this out. I don't on most podcasts, but I want to be able to get this out. And so if it's not as tight as it usually is, give me some latitude here because I want to flow with this a little bit. And I'm going to give you some tools to handle kids who are being defiant in a very direct way. But I'm also going to give you some tools to de-escalate and deal with it in a problem-solving way so we can add to your toolbox. Now, I can't get to everything, right? But I want to give you some tools and this may go on a little bit, but it's worth it, especially if you have a defined child.

So welcome to the Calm Parenting Podcast. This is Kirk Martin. I'm founder of Celebrate Calm. You can find us at CelebrateCalm.com. If you need help, contact our son who, yes, he is an oppositional kid. And I will tell you, I love that strong will that is in Casey. It is serving him well in life because he has self-control and self-discipline now. And he has a vision for his life and how to treat people. And he does it well. And I want you to appreciate those qualities in your kids. So if you want to talk to a child who was extremely outwardly defiant and had that nasty, awful label, by the way, here's my bias. I think it's a lazy label. And I think the professionals who use it,

and I have great respect. My wife is a therapist. I have great respect for therapists. In fact, we just had a Zoom meeting this morning with a therapist. So I believe in therapists. But at the same time, there are professionals at times

who just slap on a lazy diagnosis. And I think the ODD diagnosis is lazy because I don't think it really gets to the heart of or the root of who that child is. And I'm being forceful with this because many of you have kids who are labeled with that. And I don't want them to go through their lives with that label thinking, this is who I am, right? It's important to be precise in how you define people's personalities and their styles and their modes of being and their heart. That is not who your kids are. And I want you to see them correctly. And just because they're challenging and difficult and strong-willed doesn't mean they're that, right? If that makes sense. So if

you need help, contact our formerly defiant but still very strong-willed son, Casey, C-A-S-E-Y at CelebrateCalm.com. He will help you out. Whatever resources, it's our final week because it's been almost the entire month for the Christmas in July sale. But we love this because the feedback we get from it is, this is changing the way we see our kids. It's changing the whole entire tenor of our home. Where we were having power struggles, we're not. What is that worth, right? To me, how many thousands of dollars do we spend on all kinds of other stuff in our Christmas in July sale to get everything or to get the calm parenting package is a fraction of that, but you get the tools and the perspective and the insight. So anyway, ask Casey Holt,

POA that with that. So let me go through a few different ways of handling this. So I was doing a phone consultation today. So the parents had said they've got this challenging 15-year-old son and they have a rule that you don't get to do screen time during the summer. You don't get to do screen time at night. It's just what they chose. So the child came up and he's like, hey mom, dad, I didn't get to do any screens during the day. Could I do it tonight? So the parents were like, okay, we can deal with that. So we're going to give you 30 minutes. So the son said, can I have 45? Now, there's one of two ways to handle this. You would be perfectly reasonable, legitimate, justified in saying, you know what?

We've got rules around here. You didn't take advantage of it. There's no screens at night. I offer 30 minutes, which I didn't have to, and yet you're never pleased with anything, and you have to come back, and you always want more. You could handle it that way. I don't think it would go over well, and I don't think it's the right way to do it because it's primarily negative. And to the parents' credit, what they said is, no, you get 30 because that's kind of what we taught him to do. And the child, to his credit, said, okay. Now the child say, thank you so much for the extra 30 minutes. No, but I don't expect him to. But here's my question to you, which is for some of us, we're like, well, why did he even have to question? He should just be grateful. I expect a kid to try to negotiate for more. I actually respect that quality. That's ask, seek, and knock. Why would you not want to try to get more. There was nothing wrong with him asking for more. And here's the

thing you have to think about. This is a 15 year old kid. And so the question I asked the parents was, has he not been like this since he came out of the womb? And they were like, yes. And I was like, good. So you handle that perfectly because you didn't react to him going for the extra 15 minutes. You just knew that he was going to do that. And that's actually being assertive and asking for what you want. And to your child's credit, he didn't throw a big meltdown because you wouldn't give him the extra 15. That was a beautiful thing.

And I would actually at some point affirm your child and say, and now this was in a bigger discussion, but we came up with four things they could affirm their child and now this was in a bigger discussion, but we came up with four things they could affirm their child for and just say in a casual way, hey, you know, I've noticed, you know, you're really maturing because when I gave you the extra 30 minutes and you wanted more, but I said, no, you didn't push on it anymore. And you didn't have a big, you didn't create a lot of drama. You just accepted it. And that shows me you're growing up more. And when we'd asked you to do X earlier, you just did it without me asking again. And again, that just shows me you're really growing up. And I really, I'm noticing that. I think that's

awesome. And that's how I like to praise kids. I don't like to make a big deal of it. I just recognize it so that it lifts them up and they want to do that more. So there's one example. One of the more famous examples you'll hear in the Stop Defiance and Disrespect program, if you get the package, is Casey, our famous chips and salsa story. Chips and salsa story. So Casey comes at me one day, he was about 11 or 12, with that tone in his voice. You know that tone. You have every right to say, young man, young lady, if you're going to use that tone with me, to your room for the rest of your life.

Because that's all that happens, right? We just send them to their rooms away from us. And I got tired of doing that because it wasn't effective. And what I learned was, whenever things got tense I would send my son away from me or I would withdraw. Why? Because that's what I did when I was a kid because I was the third born out of four and my dad was not a great guy and my parents fought a lot so I learned to hide from things and disassociate from them. So I wanted to be able to handle this. So one day I looked at Casey and I said, hey, Casey, listen, I've noticed every time you use that tone of voice with me, usually what

happens is you're anxious, you're frustrated, or you're hungry, right? And so I'm giving him wisdom. This is the pattern I've noticed, right? You've heard me say this before. Hey, the last 38 times that you've used that tone with me, you were either anxious, frustrated or you were hungry because those were his three triggers as a kid. Guess what's still are his three triggers. And I guess I imagine when he's 55, my age, he will probably still have those three triggers. Now, he's older, so he's learned how to deal with them. But at that point, I'm giving him wisdom. If you know our stuff, you know that we talk about

instead of just, well, I just need to give him consequences. He doesn't need a consequence for it. He knows he can't use that tone with me. What I wanted to give him were wisdom about what's going on and tools to deal with it differently. So I'd say, Case, here's the deal. You have two options right now. You may continue to talk to me like that if you want, but every time you do, you lose all your privileges. You lose your video games. I don't think you want to go there. So if you want to

grab some chips, I'll get some salsa. I'll meet you out in the backyard or I'll meet you on a deck and I'll help you with whatever you're struggling with. So I go to the fridge. I grab the salsa. I go outside. He goes and gets the chips. We reconvene in a different place. Remember, motion changes emotion. I'm not going to toe to toe with an upset or defiant child in the space that we're in because it always escalates. It gives me a minute to get away from him and really process and kind of calm down. It gives him a minute to do that. But I've invited him into a different place, both physically and psychologically, mentally in a different place. And now we're eating chips and salsa.

Does it have to be chips and salsa? No. But I love chips and salsa for a couple reasons. be chips and salsa? No, but I love chips and salsa for a couple reasons. One, I really like the salt, and I like the taste, and I've noticed this in my life. You never see two people eating chips and salsa yelling at each other, right? You don't. It's always a relaxing time. When you go out for chips and salsa, it's always relaxing. You throw in a couple margaritas, everybody's happy, right? So I'm changing the dynamic. And some of you are going to be like, well, that's kind of, I don't understand why you do that.

Because it's very practical. Because I'm, instead of like, you know, we need to have, son, we need to have a talk about your bad attitude. Okay, dad, I can't wait. Will you point out all the times that I have a bad attitude and tell me all the things that I've lost and then I'll change my behavior. Like it's just not helpful. And if you're honest in your life, when you're having a bad day or you're being defined or upset, you don't want someone to come along and say, you know, your attitude really stinks right now. What are you going to do about it? Oh, thanks a lot for the

insight. No, your attitude probably stinks because something else is going on. It doesn't mean it's an excuse for you to continue doing that. I didn't say, Casey, you know what? I know you're probably anxious and frustrated or maybe you're hungry because you didn't manage your own food intake even though you're 14. So if you're really anxious, why don't you just take it out on me and call me names and say all kinds of horrible things about me? That would be okay. I didn't say that, did I? I'm just saying I'm not reacting to it and I'm not taking it personally in the moment because when I hear disrespect come from a child, now look, it can be pure disrespect.

I'll do an example of that in a few minutes. But usually, usually something else is going on. I'm the grownup who gives wisdom and tools. And when I can sit and have chips and salsa or do some pushups or go for a ride or whatever it is that we do to deescalate with my son, I eventually get to the point where he says, dad, I shouldn't have said that to you. I was just taking out my frustration on you. What I'm really upset about is X. And now we get to problem solve. You have

a teenage daughter and she rolls her eyes at you or talks back. Again, you have every right to ream her and say, you're not going to do that. Fine. But here's a good discussion that I have with a teenage daughter. This is a little bit long, but I want to get the principles in. Honey, you may continue to roll your eyes at me if you want. Why would I say that? Because it's an honest statement.

Because I can't do it. What am I going to do? Pluck her eyeballs out? If she wants to roll her eyes, she can roll her eyes. I can't make her stop. It's her choice. You may continue to roll your eyes at me if you want. I don't need you to respect me. That's a really important principle. I don't need you to respect me. See if this makes sense. I don't need, when my son was little, I didn't need Casey to respect me. I don't need his respect. I'm a grown man. I have something called self-respect. If you think

that you're going to talk to me like that and then expect me to get up out of my chair and to get in the car and take you to an extracurricular that you're not even good at and it costs way too much money, that's sarcasm. Leave that part out. But if you think that you can talk to me like that and then I'm going to get up and take you places and run you around and make you special meals and do things, it's just not happening. That's not how life works and And that's not how things work in our home. See, that's a very, that's a very good statement to make. I'm not saying, you know what, if you, if you learn how to control your mouth, you know, you're so disrespectful.

When I was a kid, none of that matters. What matters is this. You stay calm. You stay even. You stay in control. You can lay down martial law in your home. If your child has gotten in the habit of like they call you names or they call you a jerk, I don't need to get all wound up about that. I also am not going to take it, right? And I can go martial law, right? I just want you to know, like I said to Casey, I know you just flipped me off in your brain. It's not going to work here, right? If you think that you're going to call me that name and there are not going to be harsh consequences, which in my case, when I don't do consequences a lot because they usually don't work, but when I do consequences, mine are swift and severe. They're not harsh

personally, but they are severe. I'll go on lockdown. We will declare martial law in my home and that is worse than being grounded. I'll go totally Amish on you. We will cut off all electricity to that. I'm just, this is my boundary. It does not get crossed. And when it does, it is swift and severe, right? Whatever that is to you, but I just don't want there to be a lot of drama and it's not personal and I'm not yelling

and I'm not telling about my childhood and how much that hurt me. I'm just letting them know it doesn't work in my home. Now, I'm going to get to some other variations of that. So hang on through this. But with that teenage daughter, honey, you may continue to talk to me like that. I don't need you to respect me because I don't need a child's respect. I don't. I've got self-respect. Think you're going to talk to me like that, I don't need you to respect me because I don't need a child's respect. I don't. I've got self-respect. You think you're going to talk to me like that? I'm going to go do things, which is not going to happen. The truth is, honey, the reason I want you, the reason I want my child to respect me, it's not for my own sake. I don't need it. The reason, 14-year-old daughter, I want you to respect me is because it's good for you.

Because what I know in life is when kids respect their parents, things tend to go better for them. I also know at age 14, 15, or 16, whatever age your child is, you're going to want to have a lot of freedom. You're going to want to do sleepovers and get your driver's license and have all kinds of freedom. And I want to give you freedom. But every time you talk back, every time you roll your eyes at me, you know what it tells me? It tells me you're not mature enough to handle that freedom, and that makes me sad for you.

See, does that make sense? See, I'm not like, I can't believe that you would talk to me like that if you think I don't need to be indignant about it like that. I just need to be firm about it and give them clear vision and give them tools. So honey, if you think you're going to talk to me like that and get away with it, this is not going to work for you. I know you want your freedom, but every time you roll your eyes, it just tells me you're not mature enough to handle it. See, that makes me sad for you. See, it's not all about me. That makes me sad for you. Now, if you want to talk to me like an adult and you want to disagree with me respectfully, I'm all over that. I am all ears. I will problem solve with you. I will listen to you

and we will work through this. But if you're just going to call me names and you're just going to throw stuff out and do all kinds of stuff and not listen, it's just not going to work in the home. It hasn't worked before. It's not going to work. Now, if you have not done that before and you've allowed your child to do all those things, well, then you may need to apologize to them and say, I need to apologize to you because for the first six or eight or nine or 12 or 14 years of your life, I've led you to believe that it's okay to call me those names or to have that kind of attitude. And I've never really done anything and so I apologize to you for making you leading you to believe that that was okay but we're resetting

now because it's not okay. Does that make sense? You can be very tough with your kids there's just no drama. Defiance. Anxiety. I'm not going to do this example. You'll hear it in our programs. Anxiety will cause a lot of defiance because anxiety is caused by unknowns and you try to get a child to go to a new place and if they have anxiety, they will shut down and say, I'm not going. You're stupid. Taekwondo's stupid and I'm not going and you can't make me. That sure sounds like defiance and disrespect to me and I will tell you it has nothing to do with defiance and disrespect to me. And I will tell you it has nothing to do with defiance and disrespect and it's complete anxiety. And I don't have time on this podcast to do that, but that is pure anxiety. And only after you get to the root of the anxiety

and give the child tools to know you're not being a defiant little snot right now, you're just a nervous kid and I'll give you some tools to help you overcome your anxiety. Well, then the whole problem goes away and it wasn't a defiance issue in the first place. And I would encourage you and challenge you with this after working with 1500 kids in our home and almost a million families. Most defiance in the home is not pure defiance. It comes from anxiety or it comes from a broken relationship with your child. Most of the stuff just doesn't happen in isolation. There's something broken there in the relationship and that child has some anger toward his mom or his dad and that's why the defiance is coming out. And until you fix the underlying issue in the relationship, that's not going away. And you can justify it and hide behind, well, they're just,

he's just defiant. Well, sure. But what else is going on? And you really need to dig into that. Otherwise, nothing ever gets fixed, right? And so I had written down here, what's really going on? Where's the pain coming from? Where's the frustration coming from? Some defiance will come from school and schoolwork. So they're defiant because what they're often being asked to do is arbitrary or it's overwhelming. And sometimes when you and I get overwhelmed or anybody gets overwhelmed, they shut down and become defiant. I'm not doing it. Was that pure defiance? Sounds like it, but it's not a defiant child or defiant adult, that's an overwhelmed person who, when they feel overwhelmed,

is either going to fight, they're going to go into fight or flight mode, or they're going to be paralyzed and shut down. And it's a protective thing that they do. Does that make sense? And that's why I want you to look. It's why I want you to go through the programs because on a podcast, I can go through one or two of these things. But in the programs, we can go through all the different variations of this. So you can pinpoint and say, oh, this whole time we thought we were just dealing with a defiant child. Sure, he's strong will, but it was anxiety or he's overwhelmed or he's frustrated. And so in school, I give a child some tools to do their schoolwork differently, to do their homework and take tests and study and achieve in different ways. And now they're not overwhelmed anymore. Well, if I'm not overwhelmed anymore,

there's no reason to shut down. Does that make sense? I want you to think about this in a different way. Now one more example that's kind of a tough example is sometimes we get this in divorced homes where there was say a, let's say in this case it was a dad who had been maybe he was a little bit controlling and maybe he said some said bad things or negative things talked badly to his or about his wife well now they're divorced and the child's growing up basically in the custody of the mom so what happens that child will often start talking that way to his mother and it's hard because the child is often a few inches or a foot taller than his mom, right? So it's not like you can, you're overwhelmed there. What are you going to do?

And sometimes a very honest discussion of, hey, honey, son, I know you may have heard your father talk to me like that. And I'm sorry that you heard that. But that stops here and now. And that will not ever happen again in my home. See, that's self-respect. That's dignity there. That is providing clarity to the child. It's not all mixed up about your emotions and how it makes you feel. And it's fine to tell your child, that hurts me when you talk like that, but that can't be the only thing, right? And in that, that is a very strong statement when you say, you may have heard that, but that stops now. That will not continue. That pattern will not continue in this home, right? So there are a lot of different ways that we can handle that. My preference most of the time is toward the chips

and salsa of, hey, you know, and sometimes I use a very low key, right? Like, hey, I know what's going on here, or I think I know what's going on here I think I know what's going on but it's not gonna lead to anything good so why don't you take a minute and rethink what you just said to me because I think behind that is probably some frustration maybe some anger and maybe I do need to apologize to you maybe we need to work on something I'm happy to listen to you I Maybe we need to work on something. I'm happy to listen to you. I am not happy to, and I will not listen to you talk to me like that. But if you have real grievances, if you have pain and frustration, let's go for a walk. Let's eat some chips and salsa.

Let's do something together and we'll problem solve. But sometimes that very low key response to it takes all the negative energy out of it. But that's you, again, this is the hard part moms and dads, you staying in control of yourself and not reacting but instead responding. Otherwise, they're going to be oppositional or defiant or whatever, they're going to lash out. And if you react to it, it continues the cycle. And what I want you to practice this week is one of these different responses that I just gave you and really look to the root of it. If we can help you with that, reach out to Casey because he was and is one of your kids. And all of these examples come from all of our experience, but they all come from Casey.

At some point or another, he was defined because of the anxiety. There was a broken relationship between he and I, which caused some resentment and caused a lot of anger. There was the chips and salsa part of what something happened at school. And so he came home and took it out on his mom or me. And we just had to get to the root of it.

There were times where I gave him a little bit of latitude knowing, of course, he's going to ask for more. But then I'd affirm when he pulled back from it, when he handled it well. And there were times where he was just straight out defiant because he got too big for his britches and he would get too full of himself. And I would occasionally have to, in the old school words, bring him down a notch. But what I found is when I brought him down a notch, it wasn't from me being like on the authority figure.

I usually did it through humility. And I usually did it in a low-key way that said, I don't think you want to go there, son. I think something else is going on and I've got a lifetime of wisdom. You want to go for a walk with me? You want to meet me outside with some chips and salsa? I'll give you the benefit of the wisdom so that you don't end up losing all your stuff because that's kind of where we're headed right now. See, that's a really great way to de-escalate. But again, I didn't give them permission. I didn't give in. But I'm also not escalating it and making it personal. So try that this week. It's hard. Of course it's hard because anything worth doing is probably kind of hard to do. But I will tell you, it's extremely gratifying when you can turn that defiance into a bonding opportunity.

And when you become that person in your child's life who, when things are all out of control, you're the one that they come to. Because you provide clarity, you give them wisdom, you give them tools, and you calm them down, and you help them problem solve. That's a cool thing. So we've got the Christmas in July sale. Good luck at the celebrate, celebrate calm.com email Casey at celebrate calm. We'll be glad to help you. Love you all. Talk to you again soon. Bye-bye.