Calm Parenting Podcast - When Kids Are Defiant: Teaching Without Escalating

Episode Date: September 14, 2017

When Kids Are Defiant: Teaching Without Escalating So what do you do when your child just flat out refuses to do what you ask? How can you teach your kids without lecturing, yelling, or escalating situations? Learn very practical steps through Kirk's infamous "Rake Leaves" example with his son, Casey. Email [e-mail] or call 888-506-1871 to get practical help and our free newsletter. To take advantage of the special offer in the Podcast, click here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Hey everyone, this is Kirk Martin from Celebrate Calm, and you can find us at any time on the web at CelebrateCalm.com. We've got a Facebook page, Twitter page, Celebrate Calm. We've got free podcasts, blog posts, everything on our website. So go find that out and you can learn a little bit more about our story. So today I wanted to address this. What do you do when a child just flat out refuses to do what you ask him to do when he's defiant? A little bit of background for you. So some of this comes from just experiences with my son. And my son Casey is 24 now, but when he was a little kid, younger kid, he was really defiant. He had sensory issues,

trouble with school, focus, attention, just about everything your kids struggle with. My son struggled with, and I spent the first nine years of his life really just trying to change him. And so I used to go on these morning walks, and I still do, and I'd start talking. I'd be like, man, you just have to change my son. Like, why is he so difficult? And I started hearing this kind of still small voice asking me three questions. One, what if your son is wired like this on purpose? Second question, what if by trying to change your son, you are frustrating my purposes for your son what if he needs these qualities what if that pig-headed obstinance is really persistence what if that curiosity those things that cause him to you know do things differently what if that's a good thing

and you're just missing it and then the third question I heard was this. What if instead of trying to change your son, you're the one who needs to change? And that one hit me like a ton of bricks. And it sent me on a path that probably took 18 months to two years to really come to grips with the fact that the only person I can control in life is myself. And when I try to control other people, it just causes everyone a lot of frustration and power struggles. But when I changed myself, here's what happened. I began to change everyone around me. And so what you'll find as you listen to our podcast and read our newsletter and see us at live workshops is this. This isn't really just about changing your child's behavior. It's about changing your entire family from the inside out. It's about becoming a new person. And long term, it's about breaking

generational patterns that have existed in your family and inside of you for decades and even centuries. My dad was career military. He was a good man, but he didn't have a lot of tools. All he knew was fear and intimidation, yell, scream at his four boys. But none of us really had a relationship with him. And so, look, when we all became dads and husbands, what did we do? We all started yelling and screaming at our kids because that's all we knew. So the greatest gift I've ever given my son is I've broken that generational pattern that I got from my dad so that when my son becomes a dad and becomes a husband, his family won't have to walk on

eggshells around him wondering when he's going to blow up because he knows how to control himself. Quickest way to change your child's behavior is to first control your own. So we had this idea that instead of just bringing kids into a therapeutic office, we would invite strong willed kids. Many of them had diagnoses, some didn't, but we'd invite them into our home where we could control the environment. So we'd have 10 to 15 kids in our little townhouse so that we could work on real life, on impulse control, controlling your emotions, how to get along with other irritating people, because that's just what life is, is dealing with frustration and disappointment and difficult people. And so over the course of a decade, we had about 1,500

kids in our home. And to be honest, my son was kind of the inspiration for that. He actually helped us with that, with working with other kids, as he was actually growing up himself. So I want to tell you this story because I think it demonstrates something that we talked about in a prior podcast about getting kids to listen, the three questions you have to ask when you're disciplining. One of those questions is, am I building my relationship with my child while I'm disciplining? Because I believe good discipline always leads to more trust,

even when you're being very firm. So if you come to one of our live events and be sure, book us, call us, email us. We love traveling. We go as far as we're speaking to a school in Prague this winter. So we can definitely come to anywhere in the United States. And you can look it up on our website. Our live events are fantastic. So filled with really practical stuff. It's funny.

They're great. So you can call us 888-506-1871. You can email my son. If you want to talk to my son, email him. It's Casey, C-A-S-E-Y at CelebrateCalm.com. Tell us the name of your city, your church, your school, foster care organization, and we'll come help you out. So here's the story. Casey's about, I don't know, 11, 10, 11 years old. And one night it's in the fall. And I asked him, I said, case, you need to go rake the leaves. Okay. And I don't always ask like, Hey buddy, it really helped me out. I like just feeling give firm matter of fact directions. Hey, you need to rake the leaves. Okay. It doesn't

take a whole lot more than that. And so he looked at me and he said, yeah, I don't have to. And I was like, oh, kind of admire a little bit that attitude, a little bit of pride there maybe. Definitely defiant. Telling your father, I don't have to rake the leaves. And you and I know we never did that to our parents. So your initial reaction usually is to freak out and lecture about what you did as a kid and start yelling and complaining. Some of you will go to, you know what? After all I do for you, I cook for you and I clean for you.

And look, none of that is helpful. And your kids don't even care. The real reason you do everything for your kids, that's your issue. It is. You have to stop doing that. That's a lack of self-respect. And it's that whole martyr mother kind of mentality. And you use it to give your kids guilt trips. That's your issue. So stop doing everything for your kids, because I guarantee they're never going to wake up one morning and say, Mom, listen, we were talking as kids. We've determined you do way too much for us.

That day is never going to come. You're going to have to change yourself first because your kids will not respect you until you first respect yourself. And if you want to stop listening to the podcast right now and meditate on that thought for the rest of the day or week, it'd probably be really helpful. Because the real reason some of your kids don't respect you is because you don't respect yourself. And you need to deal with that. And that's a generational pattern that you can actually break. And those are the kinds of things we do in our 30 Days to Calm program, breaking those different patterns.

So Casey says, I don't have to. So I learned not to react to him. So I stepped back and I said, you know what? I said, I'm good with that. I'm good with that. We can make that a new rule in our home, that if someone asks us to do something, we don't have to do it. And I'm cool with that. And then I walked away. No lecturing, nothing, walked away. Now, Casey walked away thinking, oh, my dad's a pushover, this new calm guy who doesn't yell. Now I don't have to rake the leaves.

I'll go do whatever I want on Friday night. So that night, I prepared myself. I went to bed early because I knew what was coming the next day. Next day, Saturday morning, I get up early. I go, I get my workout in. Why? Because I've got to work off my anxiety and my stress and I want to be calm. I get home. I'm sitting downstairs.

It's still early in the morning. Sitting there like Ward Cleaver reading my newspaper. And down the stairs comes my son, all full of himself and full of energy. Dad, I've got a hockey game this morning. You've got to take me to the rink. And so you know where this is going. I looked at him and in a very matter of fact way, I said, you know what, Casey, I don't have to. He's like, come on, Dad. Seriously? You know, we're just talking about stupid leaves. I've got a hockey game. I was like, I know. And last night, we established that we don't have to do things for each other. And I kind of like that rule because

the ice rink is really cold. It's early in the morning and you're not even very good at hockey. By the way, I didn't say the last part. You can think things sarcastically, just don't say them to your kids. So it's like, not gonna happen today, Casey. He's like, come on, dad, really? And you know how your kids are. They go from zero to 100 very, very quickly and it gets out of hand really, really fast.

They're very emotional kids and they don't deal well with disappointment. And it gets out of hand really, really fast. They're very emotional kids and they don't deal well with disappointment. And I knew that going in. So he starts yelling and screaming, right? You know what? This whole calm thing's stupid. Your whole business is stupid. You're stupid. And he starts yelling. Now, at that moment, I have every right as the father, as the mother, as the authority figure, to get up off the sofa and get in his face, send him to his room, yell at him. But I didn't. And here's why.

Because I knew he wasn't mad at me. He was mad at himself because he knew he made a bad choice. And I knew that. Look, your kids get really frustrated and angry. And sometimes when we lecture too much, sometimes when we're on them, sometimes when we simply shake our heads at them, we provoke our kids more than we know.

And our responsibility is this. We're the adults. My son's getting upset now. But my normal way of thinking would have been, you just need to calm down right now. You know, it was your choice in the first place. If you would have raked the leaves like I told, you know where that goes.

It just escalates everything. My job is to put out the emotional fire in the moment. That means I have to lead him to a calm place. It means I have to be the one who steps down. So he's screaming and yelling. I don't say a thing because I know what's really going on inside of him. A few minutes later, my wife comes downstairs. He goes in the kitchen and I hear them in there.

Mom, he's being unreasonable again. He's doing that whole calm thing. Will you go talk to him? Will you take me to the rink? And I see my wife peek around the corner and look at me with these pleading eyes like, please just take him to the rink. We don't need to go through this again. And I looked at her and I just whispered this, I love him too much. And that's what was behind this. I'm not intentionally provoking my child to prove a point. I love my son. And I wanted to know a few things. And I wanted to work through this process. You know why? Because it would have just been easier to take them to the ice rink right there. And I'm not interested in doing what's easy.

I'm interested in doing what's right. I'm interested in teaching my child something for the long term. And I'm interested in building the trust and respect between us. So I refuse. So he goes on and on. Now he stomps across the living room, right, which I don't like. It's a trigger for me. Your kids are going to push every trigger you have.

Again, that's your issue because you have too many triggers, and you have to learn to deal with your own triggers. Again, it's something we do in our 30 Days to Calm program. We go through every different trigger you have and develop an opposite response so you don't inflame situations. So now he's stomping up the stairs. You know what he does? He slams his bedroom door. You do not slam my bedroom door. Never did that to my father. You're not going to do that to me. That's what's in my head. And my head is partially exploding inside right now. Cause I'm like, how, how is he ever going to be successful

in life? He just, he's so out of control, but I just sat there and I let it go. I had the right to march upstairs and, and bark consequences. If you don't calm down, you're going to lose your video games. You won't get to play hockey for the rest of the month. I could have done that. It never does anything good or productive because he's now out of control. So I sit on the sofa and I wait because I know what's coming. Look, you guys know what's coming. You've seen it a million times. Stop acting so surprised that your kids are doing something like coming. You've seen it a million times. Stop acting so surprised, right, that your kids are doing something like this. You've seen it before. So instead of trying to change their behavior and their reaction,

put the time into changing how you respond to it, and then watch how that plays out. So here's what happens next. Throughout the morning, he comes down stomping. He's dumb. I don't know why I have to do this. He wants to draw me into a fight. He wants to get me upset, but I'm not going for it.

Finally in the afternoon, oh, he came down once and said, Dad, Dad, what if I go rake the leaves really quickly? What if I go rake the leaves? Then will you take me to the game? And I said, no, that's not how it works. He goes, but my coach is going to be really disappointed and the other kids are going to be upset. I was like, I know they will. And that'll be a really tough conversation that you're going to have to have with your coach. You're going to have to let him know why you didn't make it. He's like, that stinks. That's not fair. And I was like,

I know, but I trust you. I trust that you're able to have that conversation. And I respect you enough to know that you're responsible enough to do that. Now, he didn't say, Father, thank you so much for your wisdom. Thank you for teaching me this lesson. He didn't say that. He was still upset. So finally, later, he comes down, yelling again, right, creating a big racket, harrumphing through the living room to cause all kinds of drama in the home. And he finally says,

fine, I'll go rake your stupid leaves. Now, he knows a couple things. One, I don't like the word stupid. Back then, I didn't. It's a big trigger for me. Don't use that word stupid in my home. And he also knew this. I planted the tree that bore those leaves. Do not call my leaves stupid, son. Those are my leaves and I cultivated those, right? Because we get all wound up and we take everything personally. And I want you to know this. Don't take everything personally.

Don't get so wound up about everything. Stop projecting out into the future. Well, if he can't even handle something like this, how is he going to handle real life when he's an adult? Don't worry about that. He's not an adult yet. Okay, your kids are going to grow. Just relax and control your own anxiety. right? So he knew that was a trigger. I don't have to get upset. I don't have to yell every time he does, right? So I sat there. I let him go outside and rake up my stupid leaves. So I'm looking outside. Now here's what got me. He's outside raking, but you know what he's raking up? He's not really raking up the leaves. He's raking up my grass because the kid's digging so deep into my lawn. He's pulling up the grass that I have cultivated and planted myself. So up with the leaves is coming up my grass. That's what got me because now I'm furious. You're not going to destroy my lawn just because you made some stupid decision. Look, all of these thoughts are cascading through my brain.

And I want you to know this. Being calm doesn't mean you don't feel things, right? You don't go to some zen state where nothing bothers you, right? That's what alcohol does, and we don't want that. You're going to feel things. You're going to want to throttle your child. You're going to want to scream and yell and lecture. You're going to want to throttle your child you're going to scream and yell and lecture you're going to want to do all those things and there's nothing wrong with having those feelings but here's what

I want us to know reacting to those impulses and those feelings and reacting out of that never ever ever ever ever leads to anything productive or good. It doesn't. So I calm myself down, right? Practice my little calm stuff. I go down into the garage and I grab a rake. Now I didn't grab the rake because I'm going to go out and I'm going to teach them the right way to do it, right? Because some of you are control freaks and perfectionists and your kids are upset all the time because they can't even rake the leaves because you're not going to do it the right way because some of you have husbands who cut the lawn and they always do it in a certain pattern, right? Or they do like a checkerboard cool thing on the lawn and then your child doesn't do it the right way and it's World War III. So you've got to control

your own perfectionism, right? And some of your own control issues over how you want things done. Just relax. So I grab the rake, I go outside, and I start raking leaves with him. So key, key point here. At this point in my brain, what I'm wanting is the apology, right? I'm wanting the apology. I'm even forming little sentences in my head like, hey, you know what? Right about now, probably a good time for an apology, son. But I don't want a forced apology because all I'll ever get is, sorry about your stupid leaves. So I don't want that. So we're raking. Remember we talked about relationships and how important it is. I'm in the same place with my son and we're raking quietly. Now there's a big decision here that has to be made. I want him to apologize right now. Probably not happening because he's still worked up. So I rake some leaves together,

put them in a pile and I offer a peace offering. Hey, Case, remember when you were a little kid, we used to rake up the leaves and jump in a pile? You want to do that right now? You know what the kid did to me? He turned his back on me. You do not turn your back on your father. You don't do those things, right? And that's where I had this image in my brain. Remember Home Alone 1, the good one, where at the end of Home Alone, Macaulay Culkin's running and he's running through the neighbor's basement, the one that the wet bandit had flooded. the two robbers and Joe Pesci hangs them up on that hook and they're about to torture him, right? And then the next door neighbor, the old scary dude with the big shovel comes in and whacks them over the head with his shovel. That's the image that was in my brain at the moment. I thought if I just whack my son over the head with a rake. He will fall down. I can bury him in the leaves and nobody will ever find him. Now, do not murder your children or hurt them or hate them.

But occasionally you're going to have some bad thoughts. Just don't act on it, right? So there's a brief image that went in my brain. So here's what I did. Rake up a pile of leaves and I jump into the pile first. Here's a big, big principle and concept that you have to master with your strong-willed child. Humility. Humility is a powerful, powerful tool when dealing with a strong-willed child. Because I can guarantee you, every time you face off against that strong-willed child and get in their face, even if you're right, even if your

logic is superior, it doesn't matter. They will always dig in. They will always resist you. It doesn't work. And humility is a powerful tool for those of you whose faith is important to you. The reason that you probably follow God right now is because of his humility in how he deals with you, even though he's the ultimate authority figure, right? So I humbled myself. I didn't have to. I could have just let him rake the leaves. I could have punished him. I could have done anything, yelled at him. I jump in the leaves.

Now I wait there and I felt like an idiot because I'm laying in some grass. I don't know how old I was, 40 years old, laying in some grass and some leaves, looking up the sky thinking, great God, great idea. This whole calm thing really works, doesn't it? A few minutes go by because my son is strong-willed. He doesn't give in easily, but he's processing.

And I'm giving him time and space. Again, really important principles. I don't mean to sell my stuff on this. So I don't want it to be a big commercial and I don't do a big commercial, but we have some products. We just recorded an audio CD about the strong-willed child, how to stop power struggles. Man, you've got to listen to that thing because there's so much insight into your kids that will help you stop the power struggles and learn how to motivate these kids because they're different and they're challenging

and difficult. So, you know, email my son, Casey at celebrate calm.com. You don't always have to buy stuff off of our website. You know what, if you need us, uh, help with the pricing, if you need help email or call us, We're normal people like you. We'll help you out. But do listen to this stuff because it really, really helps. So time and space. And I gave him space. And a few minutes later, Casey comes and he jumps into the pile of leaves. Now picture this. A man and his son. Two men, two males laying next to each other in the leaves. Now picture this, a man and his son, two men, two males laying next to each other in the leaves. Not a lot of conversation going on. We're sitting there quietly inside. I'm like, when are you going to apologize? When are you going to apologize? But I didn't say it.

And from my son's lips come these words. Hey, dad, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have yelled at you. I should have raked the leaves. I wasn't mad at you. I was mad at myself, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have yelled at you. I should have raked the leaves. I wasn't mad at you. I was mad at myself. I'm sorry. And watch what happened. I could have demanded a forced apology. But because I humbled myself and I led my son, I led him to a calm place. And I knew that he knew the right thing to do. And after I'd given him some space and some time and led him to a calm place and I knew that he knew the right thing to do. And after I'd given him some space and some time and led him to a calm place, I got an act of contrition. His heart was changed and it was genuine. And he apologized to me. Now in my head, my reaction was going to be darn right. You should have done what I said. If you would have done this last night, we wouldn't have to ruin the whole day. Did I need to say that? No, because my son

had learned the lesson, right? But I didn't have to pound him over the head and watch what's beautiful. At the end of this whole entire situation, he was not up in his bedroom with me down in the living room. We were not separated. We were together in the leaves and good discipline will always lead you to be closer and have a trusting relationship with your child. It just may be ugly in that interim period. So as you begin to apply this with your kids, remember, lead them to calm, model calm for them, begin to lead them, show them how to be calm, show them how to control their emotions and use humility sometimes. Look, another thing in this situation, I didn't give in. I didn't take him to the ice rink. So you can

be firm and I want you to be firm. You don't give in to kids. I want you to be firm. I was firm, but it led to contrition, and later on, my son went and talked to his coach and said, Coach, the reason I wasn't at the game is because I had refused to do what my father asked, and that was my fault, and I apologize. I've already apologized to my dad. I apologize to you for letting the team down.

Although I knew he wasn't really letting them down because he wasn't that good. They were probably relieved that he wasn't there. Anyway, I do love my son, but he wasn't a great hockey player. He was, however, a great hockey ref. And we'll save that for a future episode. So listen, love you all. Thank you for joining us. If you have other questions, email us. You can email my son, call my son. You'll talk to the kid directly, the strong-willed one, and he'll help you out. It's KCCASEY at Celebr get the 30 days to calm to help you control yourself. And in there you get the strong will child CD program, the, um, uh, discipline that works, getting kids to listen the first time program. And you get my son's own program. It's called Casey's, um, straight talk for kids. So if you're interested, reach out to us. Um, but we'll see you on Facebook. Hopefully we'll see you at live event.

Book us at your school or church. Everybody loves the workshops. They're fantastic. So anyway, does that sound awful? You know, it's so hard because I get so excited about this stuff. And our stuff really is good and it's life changing. I've presented this stuff. I've probably told this story, I don't know, 1,200 times, 1,500 times.

I never get tired of it. You know why? Because it changes lives and it's awesome. So anyway, love you all. Have a great afternoon. I hope after you listen to this that your children are defiant so that you can put this into practice. Take care. Bye-bye.