Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - Elite, Unrivaled Performance in the Mountains | How does Sitka do it?

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow John Barklow: https://www.instagram.com/jbarklow/ Follow Sitka: https://www.instagram.com/sitkagear/ Timestamps: 00:00:00 Intro & Cam’s Journey with Camo 00:05:46 Base Layers 00:08:02 Pants 00:11:12 Active Insulation 00:13:34 Windstop Layer 00:16:36 Puffy Jackets: Synthetic & Down Insulation 00:21:52 Rain Gear 00:24:29 Developing the Best Gear 00:26:13 The 8-Piece System 00:29:17 Underwear Design 00:30:22 Outro

This is the Keep Hammering Collective with John Barclow. How you doing? Good, man. Thanks for having me. Clothing is your first line of defense against the elements ever since the first caveman put on a loincloth, right? So what I appreciate is like I can come in build great gear that for something I'm passionate about and then other people are passionate about.

And then when you get those aha moments like we were talking about like, man, I don't have to be cold and wet. It's like, no, you don't. It can actually go out and actually kind of focus and have fun. I just kind of wanted to talk about how I approach things because I've thought about long enough. I try to break it down into a simplest form. And then some of the technology we use and then some fairly unique things I think we do that I think you'd be interested in. Because you know, you're performance oriented and like some of the things I think we can just work with you on going forward.

I think you'd really kind of think is cool. Yeah. And we don't really talk about some of this stuff very much. Like I'm going to show you what we call split garments and how we test. Like how we test is such a big part of what we do, but it's all behind the scenes. And, you know, unless we talk about it, nobody's ever going to know. But I think we should get some credit for it. Yeah.

You know, I agree. It's, you know, we've been doing this for a long time. I'll just go over my journey real quick. My first, when I first started, I killed a spike bull in 89, but I used to buy camo at action surplus, right? And I remember I bought these wool pants that were probably two times as big as I needed. And I had a shoelace to do it. But I'm like, I have wool.

Dude, do you know how serious wool is? This is like, this is what rich people wear. Yeah. And before that, it was like, I don't, there was no Walmart, I don't think, but that's kind of where you got camo. It was just cotton. just, you know, tree bark on it probably. And then there were some predator.

It was like, oh, predator for out west. This is sick, but still all cotton. And then all of a sudden, this performance stuff started coming in. But it was years after I had been bow hunting. I mean, many years. And, you know, then it was like, oh, well, there's this better material. We're like, what do you mean? Like, what material?

What's that going to do? And then it was like, it's like, Under Armour came on a shot show in like 2003 or four and they had that first like tight that you'd wear under football pads but they're like Randy White was up there in a big picture and he had a Super Bowl ring and stuff. I remember that. Yeah. And just look jacked and they're like is brown. So it's like make you wear this for hunting because look it's brown. And that was the first that I remember of kind of the wicket. that type of thought of like this will if you get wet at a wick if you're sweating it a wick and you're just like that's where this technology first started to come and I don't know when Sitka got on the scene but how to say that I've tried you know obviously I's with undermer for long time then origin you know with jaco's a co-founder of their camel line and you know things

happen in business and we got to where I talked to everybody about okay the origin thing wasn't working out. What am I going to do? Talk to everybody, right? Talk to Steve with First Light. Talk to you guys. Talk to Born Primitive. Because I just like, I hate switching around.

I want to make good decisions. And I just want to focus on hunting. So we formed this partnership with Sitka. And I didn't know anybody at Sitka other than you. And I've known you, seen you in Hunting Camp, watch your, you know, you do your social media. thing for us like social media at our age it's like yeah it's like probably not the most natural thing but you love to talk about gear and educate people so you just do what you do right and set

the camera up and it's good and i so i know that i'm like no well fucking john knows his shit so whatever he's saying cool i wasn't working to say good but i'd watch your stuff now i am and so i finally got like the chance to use the the equipment and gear and clothing that you're going to you you design and this year has been like I was telling you earlier I don't I didn't know you didn't have to be miserable out hunting um I thought yeah we're just cold and wet and miserable and that's just the way it goes then I was like you sit there for late season blacktail and I'm like wow I I I I didn't know I could actually enjoy this stuff yeah yeah and now you know spring bear and things like that, but I've just really been impressed with, and maybe I, maybe I shouldn't be surprised,

but it is so good, dude. It is so good. It's amazing. I used it even in my race, that long Kokadona run, I was wearing Sika because in that, it's all performance at all. It's got to be light. It's got to be warm. It was raining, this and that. It has to be the best. And that was like a verification of what I was learning on my first hunts wearing. and I'm like blown away. When I saw the pieces you were wearing on that, on that race, I'm like, oh, that's exactly what I would have worn too, you know? So like you either intuitively figured it out, but it certainly worked for you.

So first of all, I say sick as an investment. It's an investment in your hunting future. Like that's how you should look at your bow, your rifle, like any of it, right? And your clothing aside, eight pieces of clothing is all anybody really needs. It doesn't matter if you're mielder, elk hunting, white-tail hunting, waterfew, It doesn't matter. Like eight pieces is about what you need. It always starts with a base layer.

So base layer is like the foundation of this house. Like build a weak base layer. Everything else you build on top of that, it's not going to work very well. Right. So really all you're trying to do with modern clothing is manage moisture. And that's either from the inside out via sweat or outside in, like from rain or snow. So that helps you regulate your body heat And then that puffy jacket

Assists with that right so all you're trying to do is manage moisture Really not very complicated That's all the base layer does okay Something super lightweight you sweat in a cold environment It's gonna pull it off your skin If your skin's warm and dry You're gonna be warm and dry In a hot environment so say down San Carlos or something

It's gonna move that moisture and pull heat away through evaporative cooling So either way it works works. Yeah. This is the biggest mistake people make is like they buy some great stuff from say Sitka and then they wear their you know cotton briefs and t-shirt. And then they're like, why am I cold? I had this actually happened years ago in a whitetail camp. And so, you know, base layer you have synthetic wool. This is treated with insect shield. So I don't know if you guys had this for your bear hunt, but like that would have been nice. You know, keeping bugs away. So not just a chemical treatment, but also the fabric.

doesn't allow the mosquito to like put his nose through and bite you. Even as thin as this is? It's crazy, right? So there's a mechanical and a chemical property to that. So light. But it gives you options. So you have synthetic, you have wool, you have stuff with insect shield, you know. I just like to say it's shooter's choice.

Like it doesn't really matter. Just pick something. Just pick some kind of technical base layer. And then everything you put on top of that, which is really an investment. is going to work better. And then you got pants, right? And so soft shell pants are really your, they're kind of your uniform.

They're, you know, it's something you put on and probably don't take off when you're, you know, living out of a backpack. And you have so many options there. Removable knee pads, non-removable knee pads,

hip vents, you know, whatever. This pant here, the intercept pan is what you said you were bear hunting in? Yeah, yeah. Crazy quiet, high performance, durable, right? Right? And so it's like if you're a bow hunter, like the intercept pant to me is like that's my go-to.

Yeah. And then we got, you know, this new pant coming out with hip vents. This pan here, this is a new pan as well, but like really crazy lightweight. But when we were testing that originally, you know, I sent it on, I put it on two guys going on Cape Buffalo hunts. And they killed, you know, after 10 days or whatever. And they sent me back the pants. and I was like, hey, do you guys even wear them? And they're like, yeah, we send you the kill photos.

And I'm like, dude, they still look brand new. Yeah. And so, you know, again, just if you're out there in a lightweight pair of pants because it's super hot and they fall off and get shredded from the knee down, like, who cares, right? Like you just, you wasted your money, right? Right. So, but soft shell pants are a really important part. Being on your knees, like for an elk, for actually for any animal, they're way less inclined to be spooked by some, by,

a human on their knees than standing the standing profile of a silhouette of a human. They're so used to seeing that and being alarmed when you're on your knees, especially if you're by a tree. And it's just you can get away with so much more. So if knee pads help you because people are like, might be they got sore knees or whatever. Or it's hard to get down and up for some people. So they're like,

I'm just going to stand. That could cost you that opportunity. If you would have been on your knees and maybe the knee pads that come with some of these garments here, maybe that would allow you to make that decision and that would allow you to kill that bowl of a lifetime again. It's these little tiny decisions that can make the difference on what you've been dreaming about your whole life. And one thing about pants and pets have been like a thorn on my side for a long time because it is hard finding a perfect bow hunting pant. A lot of times, like I remember back with it in the under armor days, the bottoms of the pants

were too big and it's like it's not like I walk where I'm hitting my you know it's a pet peeve of mine so my pants aren't swishing together but when they get wet and they're like it's just weight kind of moving around again it's not efficient it's irritating yeah so I always wanted like one time they had a version that was kind of like it was called Ridge Reaper and I was like finally and it's like they stopped making it and that was the only good pan I've had for a hundred million years until these pants. And it's like, pants for a bowhunter, if you're active in the mounds, they have, it's critical that they work like they're supposed to. And to me, they're form fitting and athletic. And that, the pants that I wore on this last bear hunt, perfect bowhunting pan.

So we were, we were talking a little bit about this. So there's, there's two kinds of insulation. There's active insulation, which is what you're going to wear when you're moving. So I believe that was one of the pieces you're wearing on the coca donut. Yeah, I love this. This is, it is amazing how warm, you know, this reminds me of like, remember the old jean jackets with the sheafskin like everybody had back in high school? But it's kind of like that, but it is so, so light and so warm. And I could run with this and it was raining. I was out there for hours.

And whatever you guys did here, wet, it still kept me warm. Yeah, we actually developed that insulation with, um, Primaloft many years ago and it was just you know heavyweight fleas grid fleece things like that like that's that's a basic form of active insulation but it doesn't really shed any precipitation or anything and like we knew it could be more durable and so anyways we we built these these are different weights of the same thing and like I was telling you earlier you could take that soak it in a bucket of water put it on and go for run and in 45 minutes probably sooner just with your body heat pushing that moisture out that garment is going to be completely dry so you're like cool that's great performance but like it could also that could be the difference in saving your life yeah for sure yeah and then there's just different kinds so this is this is the alpha fleece it just came out right so depending on what you're doing and but these are all types of active insulation so just to give people those options

Yeah. And, you know, because not everything's going to be perfect for everyone and people do things differently. So, you know, you want to give options. But this ambient, so that's ambient 75, that's ambient 100. Yeah. Those are two of my absolute favorite pieces. You know, they're quiet enough to hunt in.

I mean, I've killed Whiteale and elk and mule deer wearing those. This on the outside is so quiet. Yeah. And I put that down on the... this when it got cold and I was super wet because the down like the shell on the down is a little scratchy yeah it's not going to get you but this stuff danger close I mean dead quiet yeah so this is something kind of unique and I don't know if you you got that piece or not but I haven't seen this so I think one of the most overlooked pieces within a clothing system is a wind stopper layer yeah so

you know if you understand that wind strips body heat through convective cooling that you understand, well, I got to block the wind. Yeah. And so a lot of guys who are in the mountains out. It's kind of like, well, I'll just put on my rain jacket. But rain jackets are not normally like quiet. Yeah. Right. So guys are asking me all the time like, hey man, you know, how do I stalk a mountain goat or sheep in the mountains when it's like, you know, kind of misty or like high humidity or maybe a little snow? And I'm like, windstopper. And so oftentimes, so this is the, the Mountain Evo jacket.

Super thin windstopper, no insulation. I'll have this on, and then that ambient 100 or 75, like I put it right over top, and I built it that way. So, like, this will still give you that great, like, range of motion to draw your bow and, like, do all the athletic things you need to do. But then you put that ambient over top.

So I block in the wind, but now I can, you know, keep quiet with the ambient. But I can also reverse them. So let's say I'm hiking, but now maybe it's starting to rain a little bit more, snow a little bit more. I can put this windstopper on the outside and it's going to shed most of that precipitation. Not rain gear, but I say it's like probably 80, 85% solution is windstopper. And not a lot of people know about it. What I noticed is I could put on these layers and I can still draw my bow.

because I was so used to having, not talking about any brands specifically, but to me, I just had to put on more stuff if it was colder. You used to put on more stuff and then a jacket over the top. It's like, there's sometimes I'm like, I don't know if I can draw this freaking bow. Yeah. Cold. This, for whatever you've done with the range of motion and the layering and maybe just a higher quality design or more thought put into it, I could have on four different things,

which, given the circumstance, you might have to, and still draw. my bow easily. Yep. Because what's the point if you're not going to be able to draw your bow? Like, why are you out there? That is huge. Yeah. That, it's like, so I think I told you at that time, it's like, this stuff's incredible as far

as Larian goes. You hear that all the time. It's like, you know, buck of a lifetime walks by, guy can't draw his bow, right? Or, you know, or he has bow string clearance or, you know, whatever it is because he hasn't practiced wearing all that stuff. So it's like, we want to give the minimum effective dose, but like not so much that you just can't be that athlete. Yeah, for that, for that tree stand hunt, I mean, whatever that has the zipper that

go sideways. Yeah, the fanatic. That shit is so warm, dude. The fanatic. That jacket is so warm. That was like, that was the one that sent me over the top where I didn't know I didn't have to be miserable. When we build a puffy jacket, I don't want to just build a puffy jacket.

Like we got some new insulation, down insulation, right? And this stuff literally has gold dust on it. Like literally. Yeah, can we actually, here, can you hand me that new jacket and then my old jacket? Like, I think you just were talking about this. So is this all mine? Yeah. Okay.

This is what I was like, this jacket is sick, right? And this is like, I thought this was a sick puffy jacket. This isn't the camo, the money, money puffy that I was talking about. But I thought this one. Yeah. This one. That's, this is the new one. Okay.

Yeah. So tell me the difference. I was impressed with this one. Tell me the difference between this one and the new one. on. Yeah. So when you're talking puffy jackets, static insulation, they're designed, when you're just kind of sitting there, right, like behind the glass, in camp, you know, on the stump or the launcher or whatever. And you're just trying to be really stingy with giving up your body heat. So that's why they're kind of lofty. But when you start to look at the insulations,

you kind of have two choices, synthetic and down. Okay. Okay. So this black one is synthetic. And it's the most highly performance driven synthetic insulation that I know of in the world, right? But this down is what I just talked to you about, which is super lightweight, super compressible, super warm, but one of the kind of downsides of down is if it gets wet, you guys live in coastal Oregon. Yeah. You were just up in a wet area in Alberta. that it can get wet and then those feathers, they just lose their loft, right?

And as soon as they lose that puffiness, they lose their warmth. And so this down insulation literally has this gold dust and water repellent treatment to it to where if it does get wet, it's going to resist kind of that compression. And then it'll dry quicker than any other down. So all of a sudden I can say, no, hey, Cam, that's a perfect jack. for you to take on your moose hunt, on your bear hunt, on your elk hunt, like you can just take that and don't have to think about it. Like just put it on, it's going to keep you warm. This jacket is an incredible jacket, not nearly as warm as this, but this jacket I could soak in a bucket

of water, you know, swim to shore, whatever, and it's going to keep me warm. But when you talk synthetic installations, it's not going to be quite as lightweight or it's compressible, right? So there's always a given take. There's always choices. I would say the black one, the synthetic, I call it the pickup truck. It's like the thing you're going to use 90% of the time. But now with these new insulations, this down insulation, it's like that all of a sudden that had to change my paradigm. I'm like, now you can use down for almost pretty much anything.

You know, we went so far. So, you know, Adam Foss and I talked about that comfort lab. Like we went back, did a video last year where we got in that comfort. lab. They drove the temperature down, I think, like 25 ambient. And we had these big cattle troughs of water. And they froze the water. And so the water, it was frozen like an inch thick, broke the ice with a hammer. And then with a clothing system that we're talking about, like got, didn't have the puffy on yet, but got in the water like with our hiking clothes on. Stayed in there for five minutes and drove our body core temp down because we'd swallowed these. these little microchips.

And then got out, and so you're soaked. And you're thinking, well, the first thing I want to do is, like, strip those clothes off. But depending on where you are, what you're doing, like, maybe, you know, do you have extra clothes or can you build a fire? Chances are you can't. So we just put this puffy jacket and pants directly over that soaking wet clothing. And then got in the down sleeping bag, to your point earlier, about it wet now. Yeah.

Just losing its loft. Yeah. And you can tell, I mean, you can tell by the way we reacted, but also the metrics of the RFID chip, they're like our body core temp stop dropping, started coming back. Cognitive function started coming back, which means you can make better decisions in the wilderness. But it's like, that is your immediate course of action. And now it's like, okay, we've stabilized, you know, the initial shock of whatever, like falling into creek or swimming or whatever.

We're not going to die of hypothermia. now. Now we're just uncomfortable. Yeah. We can dry this out with just our body heat. And, you know, now let's build the fire. Now let's build the shelter. Now let's hike back to the truck, whatever the case may be. Wow, what a great test.

I mean, these puffy jackets to me, I consider them part of my survival kit. Yeah. So it's like your mind's your best tool. Then you got some other survival tools. But like this puffy jacket, like that in a rain jacket, I know I can stay dry and stay warm. If you solve for those two, you're good to go. Yeah. You know?

Well, and so I showed you this. This isn't out. yet, but this is like a lighter-weight version. This is even lighter. So it's like one for the early season, one for the late season, right? So this is kind of piece number six. And then the last two pieces are rainjacket pant, right? So that rounds out eight pieces.

Now, we use Gortex, all different kinds of Gortex, depending on the application. I don't know if you're going to go back up in Hunt Gris or Brown Bear with Kip, you know, but we've got a burlier version. So this is DuPoint. We've got a burlier version of DuPoint for like those guys and guides who are busting Alder and brush. And so it's one and a half pounds for the set. Really?

Jacket and pants, size large, it's one and a half pounds. This jacket is so light. Right? Yeah. So. And then we've got an even lighter one. I don't know if that was the one you wore on the coca dona or not. Not. But, but, you know, the Gortex is just like, I mean, I've trusted my life to Gortex, dry suits and obviously rain gear. Like, I always try to carry some type of rain jacket as well. I kind of, I call rain gear like car insurance. Yeah. Especially like in this country. It's usually at the bottom of my pack. That's where it should live. I hope to never wear it. Like, and that's the weird thing about rain gear. Like, you kind of need it to save your life if you need it, but you hope to never. Right. There's some hunts where it never comes out, but I got it. Yeah. I hope to never wear ring gear again ever in my life.

But I wanted to show you this because I talked about those split garments. Yeah. So this is a really odd looking pair of rain pants. And I'll show you another pair here. So you can see the difference in color. So these are actually in the rain pants, those are two different cortexes. And in this pair of soft shell pants, these are two materials. And so these are called split garments.

So when we have a concept, so let's say you and I talk and you're like, hey man, like such and such pant really and you kind of frame up the concept like here's the problem I'm having like can you solve this and we're like all right and maybe we come down to two fabrics and you don't know which one well we'd make a split garment just like this and give it to you or a field tester myself when we go out and the beautiful thing about this is on the same day same environmental conditions same activity you can literally compare and contrast leg and you're like this this was more durable than this or this dried out quicker than that or you know whatever and when you do that although it takes a little more time it costs a little more because the factory's got to do all this

um you really start to dial in so then when you get that intercept pant you know that that is the exact right fabric for you yeah but uh but but but this is kind of the level so i talked about going into that comfort lab and like you know we can put treadmills in there and and and and all kinds of stuff so you start in the lab you start to validate there but you hunt in the field so then you take these garments you put them in the field you start here and then you start dialing it in so then you get down to one fabric then you get the design then you get the fit and then eventually it ends up on you and you kill that bull right you don't you don't nobody has to know that right like that is the level and so we're putting on average two years of development into anything we do some things four to five

Like, it just depends. And sometimes I'm, I'm three years in and, and for whatever reason, it just doesn't work out. And, like, you just got to kill the project. Right. You know, it's like, oh, technology isn't there. Maybe it's too expensive or whatever. But that's the level to when the consumer gets it and they're, you know, hunting their elk or sitting in the tree stand hunting that blacktail. Like, that's the confidence they should have that, like, we've done our due diligence up front.

to get them in the best thing we can. Yeah. It's just what it takes. It's like, you know, my goal, no matter what the odds are, no matter what success rates are, I mean, my goal is to kill on every single hunt. And I'm not satisfied unless I do. It's like I want the animal that I'm after. I want an old animal.

I want a mature animal. And I want to kill every time I go. That's my expectation. Anything less than that is failure. I need my equipment and what I do has to. allow me to have that goal and to have that be achievable, have that be realistic. And yeah, so it looks like we're on the same page with that. Yeah. So that's, that's the eight piece system, huh?

That's the eight piece system. That's all you need. People think it, it's no more complicated than that. And they're like eight layers. I'm like, no, eight pieces. So we need base layer. Yep. You need a pair of pants. So base layer top and bottom. You need a pair of pants. You need active insulated top. You need some type of wind stopper. You need that static puffy jacket and a rain jacket and pan. That's it, eight pieces. Yeah. And I think we've all just made it a little more complicated than it needed to be. And, you know, there's lots of nuance with every one of those layers. But like at the end of the day, that's all you need. So if you don't have all eight, start somewhere and then slowly over time, you can get there. Yeah. You know, I think more,

more importantly, people should go hunt and get experience and make sure they have everything exact. It's like you'll learn over time. Right. We sweat every little detail. And a lot of them are going to go unnoticed by the consumer. But like, I know me and the team, like, we sweat every single detail. You never want to get the reputation of testing on your consumer. Like somebody's going to spend good money on something. And we say, you know, it does this or that. Like, it better deliver on that, you know.

And you can get away with a lot in the good weather. But you start going to the North Country and stuff. Like, it's uncompromised. Yeah. You know, you're in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. Like you're not calling for a rescue anytime soon. And so there's that aspect.

But if all of a sudden, like, you're distracted because the water's wicked up into your chest. And like now maybe you got cold. And then now maybe you're not shooting as accurately as you need to. And you have to make like the best shot of your life. Yeah. I don't want to be. I don't want to be to blame for that. And whether it's on a bear hunt or in the mountains on an elk hunt, you got to punch that cock as long as you can every day.

The more you're out there, you're great your odds are success. And Sitka, I think, from my experience, it helps keep you out there longer. I noticed like a lot of little things like that. Like 100 years ago, there was this jacket I used to wear. And it was because there's a big thing about, you know, your bow arm. And so it had a zipper right here. And it would just kind of suck it down. I think I remember.

I don't know who. Yeah, but I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. Oh, yeah. What I remember about that zipper, this is why, like, details matter to me is because it had that zipper, which had more fabric along the zipper, that would gather moisture on that,

just on that seam right there. So whatever you had on would get, or that would get wet. Then it would just start wicking up. It's like pretty soon you're all wet. But it was a great idea to suck that in. So your bow strings is not hitting that. But this is supposed to be an all-weather jacket. And that was kind of sabotaging it.

What I've noticed is I don't I haven't noticed things like that that kind of sabotaged the goal in the Sica designs you know it's just like everything works. Let me see something here. Yeah. So here's one thing. So this isn't a good design and I'll just tell you I've had if you have underwear like this and the ones I've had had this seam was here. Okay.

kind of comes like that. This seam holds moisture. When it holds moisture when you're sweating, it holds sweat. When there's sweat like on this side, that's rubbing. I've rubbed my ass raw because of sweat in the seam

when I'm running, you know, for hundreds of miles. So this design right here, you're not, that seam doesn't move like this, like your legs, your leg action moves those seams.

So salt, holding in these little so I noticed stuff like that and that's I hadn't looked at these because I don't think I even have any of these but to me I would look at this and be like that's how it's supposed to work because I can be active I can sweat that's not going to tear up my skin yeah little shit like that it's not one big thing that gets you off the mountains it's a hundred little things great discussion John I mean so impressed I loved going through all this I think people are gonna you know I'm I'm just I'm like anybody else I've been I've tried everything.

I've been through everything. Yes, I've been in the industry, and I've had these relationships to these other companies. But for whatever reason, I'm at this point right now and to be able to share what I know, what I've learned,

the hard lessons, and just to just explain, like, this process to people because I learned a lot today even, and it's like, I think it's just going to be very useful and I think people are going to really enjoy it. So thank you very much.

Yeah, no, cool. Thanks. Thanks. All right.