Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 013 - Taylor Spike

Episode Date: March 16, 2023

Finally, at 34 years old, after years of drinking and relying on prescription drugs, Taylor, took inventory of self and started choosing complete and honest sobriety.  Even tracking in the direction we want to go does not guarantee a destination. “Life always catches up with us,” Taylor says. For a long time he believed he was coasting through, unnoticed and unaccountable.  In 2016, Taylor got a phone call in the morning that no parent wants. Donavan, Taylor and his wife, Pam’s, now 22 years old son, had been killed instantly in a car accident.   The whole family was heartbroken and lost. “Life experiences make us better, not worse,” Taylor will tell you honestly, “Life gives us all roadblocks.” Running is a different way to cope with discomfort. Running is a different way to process the pain instead of escape it. Those road blocks are no longer excuses. Life is gritty, raw, and real. Rather than cave into old habits, Taylor launched himself into encouraging recovery in others and leading by example.   Listen on: Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3XCm31n Apple Podcast: https://apple.co/3Dm6ClE   Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com   Connect with Taylor Spike: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tspike2/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/taylor.spike.9/ Website: https://recoverystrong.com/   Special thanks to our sponsors. MUD WTR: mudwtr.com/cam Use code CAM for 15% your first order MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping First Light: https://www.firstlight.farm/ Use Code Cam15 for 15% off your first order Leupold: https://www.leupold.com/ Black Rifle: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv Bass Pro / Cabellas: https://www.basspro.com   Timestamps: 0:00:00 Introduction 0:02:00 Big brother Cam 0:04:00 Hunting with Taylor at a young age 0:11:23 Taylor’s ultrarunning evolution 0:15:50 First success as a runner 0:17:56 Taylor’s running volume and goals 0:23:51 Mt. Pisgah summit book 0:27:32 500K feet of gain a year 0:30:30 “Everything after 10 is far.” 0:32:00 Losing Donavan 0:38:00 Pain is temporary 0:42:36 Peaks and valleys  0:47:20 Running hallucinations 0:50:10 Becoming a running veteran 0:53:30 Crushing your old self 0:54:17 Different diets 0:57:19 Race plans for 2023 1:02:32 Greg Spike 1:09:17 Linda Spike 1:14:39 Taylor’s winter agenda 1:18:30 Candice Burt 1:21:15 Recovery Strong 1:24:00 Gratitude between brothers 1:26:03 Sponsorships  

I'm always putting constant stress on my body, which is why I decided to try mud water, and it has been a game changer in regard to mental focus. The blend of adaptogenic mushrooms, cortisps, and lions mane all support focus, physical performance, and are great for the immune system. Now, these aren't the hallucinogenic type of mushrooms, but I do like that mud water gives back to the Berkeley Center for the science of using psychedelics to help treat individuals, with mental health disorders. Go to mudwater.com,

that's M-U-D-W-T-R. Use code CAM for 15% off your first order. Hoyt Archery has been my bow hunting sponsor since 2005. And personally, I really don't care what bow you shoot, what brand it is. I just hope that you have the same level of confidence in your equipment as I have in mine. Because I know if I get one opportunity

with my Hoyt, it's going to pay off. Every step I take, I move my truck. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel got moving so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. Well, this is Keep Hammering Collective, and I'm here with my brother, Taylor Spike. And that's always people like, well, wait, he's your brother, but he's got a different last name.

That's confusing for people. What do you say about that? Oh. We got the same mom. We got the same mom, yeah. People have stories, though. People have already made up something, though. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Well, I changed it or you changed it. Yeah. So just for the backstory, because people don't know and probably haven't, I mean, how would you know? But so our mom is the same. Your dad is your dad. I have a different dad or had a different dad. My dad died in 2010.

But so my mom got remarried. I had me and Pete. We were, you know, brothers. And then she got married to Greg and had you and Megan. And so that's my half-brother's you and half-sisters, Megan, but we just say brother-sister. And then my dad, he married Candy, my stepmom, and they had a son, Justin. And so I have a wide variety of brothers and sisters. But for me, it was weird because when we were young or when you were young,

and I was, I mean, we're 10 years difference in age. So I moved away from home when I was 17. And, you know, he was gone, never came back. You were seven. It's like hard to have really a connection with a 17-year-old and a 7-year-old. What, I mean, what do you remember about me back then? I've never even asked you this. No, that's a good one.

Yeah. That's good. Well, you were mythical, right? Mythical, oh, yeah. Because you always, it was always, you were always doing something. And then when you did come home, I remember, like, when you came home from Sock, that was from Southern Oregon, right? When you were going to school there, you were going to university, you were playing football. that was, you know, that was somebody to look up to, right?

That was, you were, and when you came, you would come and go, and then the bow hunting thing started, and it was just, you were just untouchable. You were just somebody to look up to. Yeah, so always influence was always positive me, other than the regular Big Brother stuff. I mean, I picked on right, that was regular. Yeah. And then correcting me, you know, you always had that role that you would come in. And I remember multiple times you showing up at kind of the right moment to correct.

me. I remember Megan, our little sister, her and I year and a half apart, and during the summers we'd fight like animals. And you seem to always be there to correct me at the moment that I needed to be corrected. So that's her remember. Well, yeah, I'm glad there's something positive there because at that time of my life, you know, I looking, I was, excuse me, thinking back this morning wondering, God, I probably was just the worst big brother at that time. just because I know what I was doing was, you know, just kind of, it might seem good from the outside, but like what I was dealing with was drinking all the time, you know, not really, not knowing what I was going to do with life after football was like kind of a lost period. So what I would come back for you, there's a few times like I'd take you hunting.

Oh yeah, I remember that. Tell us about what do you remember about hunting? Oh, geez. My first buck, I remember my first buck, you coming to the school. I was in junior high. No, Pete came and got you and brought you to me. Oh, yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Pulled me out of school. Right. Upwindling. Yeah. I can vaguely remember up to 2000. I feel like I still kind of could probably drive there. Really?

Yeah. And then across the canyon, there's this great big buck bedded down on the hillside. Yeah. And that one was, you know, I was up there all the time. Oh, yeah. All the time. That's all I ever used to do is go up. Look, I wasn't even hunting, taking pictures, whatever.

I just, all I cared about was being out. And I found this giant, it was like a five by, it kind of broke on the one side, but it was five on one time, just a classic big black tail. And he was bed in this reprod and I'm like, he's going to stay there all day. So I'm like, I need, I need to have somebody kill this buck. And you, that was your first year, your first year, your, First, you're hunting, your rifle hunting. I think you were 12, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So I went down, no cell phones or anything at this time. I went down to Wayne's Market is, now it's called Marcoa, community market or whatever. And I called Pete. And I said, hey, you need to go. You were going to Pleasant Hill. I said, go get Taylor out of school.

Bring him up here. I got the gun. Bring him up. And I said, I got this giant buck on him to kill. So this took a while, right? And then we went back up there and sure is shit. We went out to that landing, looked straight across. And that buck was better.

right there. And then so then it was a matter. And it was actually a long shot. It's like 300 yards. But we got your on arrest and everything. Then what happened? I shot a lot. It was horrible. But you, but you hit, you hit him in the, in the, like, ankle. Yeah, I hit them, yes. Yeah, in the rear ankle. So he started limping and he couldn't get up the hill. Exactly. He bet it back down. Yeah. Got him killed. Yep. Now is a big buck. Yeah. Huge. Yeah. Still have that buck. Yeah. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I kept all those. Yeah, there was that. There was a fork of horn.

I remember we, it was getting dark. We were headed down. We were super discouraged. Like, there's a dirt. But you always had that. Well, now looking back, when you spend that much time out there, you start to notice things are out of place. Right.

And that's what you could do. Then I would always say, how could he see there? No way you could see that. But if you drive by it 100 times, it's out of place. Yeah. So, yeah, I was, but hunting with you was like cheating. Because if I really needed to kill a buck, then I'd call you. because you always would tell me, oh, here or there.

You're always right. So, but even after that, though, those skills, you know, spending time in the woods, right? That's, I got that from you. So, well, I mean, we'll talk about that, but you've taken it to another level now. Then, let's see, I do also remember, I can't remember what buck it was. Must have been your third buck or maybe, I don't know which one, but there was one way out on, it used to be called the 1074 and I used to go out there because it was just a money spot. And you killed this buck.

And probably, I'm sure I gutted your first one. I don't know about the second one, probably. But then maybe this third one, maybe I said, okay, you know how to do it. Do you remember this one? Out on the landing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I remember. Yeah. That's when I cut my thumb, gotten it by myself. Yeah. So I said, okay, you got to do this one by yourself. Remember how to do it? And you first, like, try to get that knife in there and just slice your thumb wide open.

Try to pretend I didn't. Yeah. I mean, that was a good one. Like my thumb didn't even work. It was weird for months. Did you get stitches in that? No. Oh, yeah, that was a bad cut.

Well, I don't want to tell anybody. I remember getting home and washing my hand and going, yeah, that looks a lot worse. Yeah, I remember. I was like, you did that first off and then you're trying to be tough. And I was like, oh, blood going everywhere. And I'm like, okay, fuck. Get out of it. I mean, I'll do this.

And, uh, but you were such a young kid and I'm not a good teacher. I'm more like, I remember us going out. And you know how it always is very hard for somebody to see an animal when one person sees it, trying to get the other person to see it in a mess of everything. And I'd be so frustrated, not just you, but anybody. It's like holding a flashlight for your dad. That was yours. You know, you don't see it.

Yeah, no, I remember grabbing your head like this and pointing your head right at it. And it was just like, you don't see that right there. Probably sometimes you said you did see it even though you didn't. I'm sure. But classic times. Then we also went to the wilderness once. Do you remember that? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. What was that? Well, we drove over after you worked all day. We were looking for, yeah, we were looking for the llamas. Yeah, that's right. That's what it was. The Eagle Caps. Yeah, we went on a hunting trip.

Llamas got loose and disappeared. And so I can't, now. I can't remember. I don't know if Tim lost the llamas or I, I think he took them, lost them. And so I went back to find them. Yep.

And, you know, we're in a 30 mile by 60 mile wilderness. It's 3007,000 acres looking for a couple animals. That's tough. Well, we started at midnight. No,

it was, I think it was closer to one. Yeah. Well, we got off work. By the time we got there? Yeah, four or five and drive over there,

eight or nine hours. And then just hit the trail. And I thought, we're going in now. Like, yeah, we're going to walk till it's light. We'll just lay down.

for a minute or rest for a little it wasn't laying down i think that was my idea yeah and we did we walked till daylight and i had never been on anything like that yeah how old were you at that time i remember the pictures yeah i must have been 14 or 15 because i wasn't driving yeah um but i was young you know i thought i was fit and i was destroyed and that was horrible that country's tough it is but it's like any that you get back in there it's usually you know that's the piece that makes it worth it. Yeah. Well, so now you've went, I guess we'll fast forward. And now, so that all sounds like overwhelming, but you were young and it probably was overwhelming. But now you've really, the mountains are home to you, it feels like. I mean, how has that journey been? And what do you

you say, I think you mentioned peace or I don't know how you just said it, but what are the mountains like to you now? Well, that's, I guess that's a place I can go to get away from everything and just kind of be myself, right? Yeah, everybody's days full of life or whatever excuse or reason they have, but when you know, going to Piscay, you know, it's a small area. You know, people think, you know, the Piscan might be this great big area wilderness and it's a pretty small area that we utilize and it's home, right? But it's a mountain. Yeah. And it's a, you know, you got to sacrifice a little bit to get up and it's usually worth it. Yeah.

And nobody messes with you. You know, it's like nobody's going to dictate how you're doing the mountains. That's your thing. Right. We don't get that all the time. And I might take advantage of it more than I should. Yeah. We usually find a lot of excuses to get over there and get some miles in.

But so a lot of people, you know, have mentioned they wanted to have you on the podcast. And I did too because, you know, you've just obviously, you know, I love. you, you're my brother, but also your story is powerful. I mean, I see you wearing your recovery strong hoodie there, and we can get into that, but when I just think of you now, and when everybody thinks of you now, it's just a very talented ultra runner, very talented runner in the mountains. And, I mean, you're one of the best in this area. You know, I mean, the world's a big place. There's some crazy runners out there. But, For here, I mean, you're at the top of the list as far as guys who can get out there and crush miles on the mountains.

Tell me about that evolution from first getting into running to where you are now. Wow. Well, it started with trying to get in shape was the first thing because I was a couple hundred bills and riding dirt bikes and thought it was a tough guy. You know, it was couch tough and trying to get in shape. and then you were doing Western States 100. And that was, you know, kind of, I had no idea what that really was, but you had to ask me.

I'd kind of started running and done like an 8K. I didn't even know what 8K was. I didn't even know how far it was. I remember Pete had done it with us, and then Greg, and they crushed me. And it was like, this is running things pretty hard. And then all of a sudden it was, I was intrigued by you doing Western States,

and that had become a big goal for you, and then you had asked me to pace you. And then I had back surgery, and I couldn't paste you. And that was like this thing that I had, I remember I was just thinking about that this morning, running on a ridgeline trail with you. And you were just crushing me.

And I'm just foot flopping across there thinking, I'll never be able to do this. But in that moment thinking, you know what, he's a man. I'm a man. You know, if he can do this, I can do this. I just need to stick and stick with it. Right.

And that just kind of progressed. You know, it was doing the, the 8K and, getting past that and set new goals, gosh, losing my train of thought. Yeah, I mean, it's a journey. It's, you know, everybody starts at whatever level they're at, and it can seem overwhelming. But then you just start chipping away, and then you, at some point, you did a marathon, right? Yep, I did the Eugene Marathon.

And, well, the first thing I had done was I'd signed up for SOB 50K. And that was one that I watched. I was healing up from the back surgery. And then, of course, I immediately signed up for another race because it was like, well, you know, I was ready to do that. It was in the mountains. I mean, S-OB 50K, you had told me about it all the time. Yeah. That's the closest mountain race you can get.

And so that's what I was going to do. Right. When I couldn't, I found something else. And that's when I had signed up for it was Frozen Trail 50K in Mount Piscay. So that was officially the first time that I had ever. gone any any race other than like I did a shot control bus, 25K. Yeah.

I went from a 25K to a 50K and then did the Eugene marathon. Oh, I see. So yeah, that was, and I did that 50K. I remember in a rain slick, wool socks carrying a Gatorade and almost died. It was raining. It was pretty tough. Those first ones are way worse than anything I've done now. Yeah.

I mean, the first two miles I ran, remember with Donner, of in, you know, one afternoon, those two miles, I've been closer to dying than any 200 or 100 I've ever done. Yeah. Those moments when you first start trying to run, it's miserable. Yeah. It hurts. I people say that all the time. Like they, they have a hard time with a mile or a tough. They can't even fathom doing, say, if we do like a half marathon a day or something like that. They can't fathom because those first ones for them are like you and like me when I first started. It's like this, this doesn't, how? You're like wondering how people do this.

But once your body gets used to it, and as I've said, your body gets used to what you ask of it. So if you haven't asked your body to run before, of course it's going to be hard. But once your body's like, oh, okay, this is what we do, it's what you do. Yep. And then, so how did you progress from that 50K? So that was a struggle. And then where did you have your first success that really felt like a runner? probably at Tahoe, Tahoe 200.

Oh, really? Probably 10 years later. Wow. 10 years. Yeah, because I had never really like focused on anything. It was just like, I just got out of the mountains. That was always, it was a good reason to get out. It's been 15, 20 hours every weekend trying to go climb something or ski or just

spend time in the mountains. But to actually like sit down on paper and say, I really want to be a successful ultra runner, it was Tahoe 200. And it was the second year. It wasn't the first one. And you got, did you get third the first year too? Yeah. So you got behind Courtney.

You got third two years. And the first year, you're saying you weren't as intentional as you were the second year. Correct. But you still got third, even though not being intentional. One thing I've noticed with you, I mean, you are up and down in ultras because we've run a few now. And it's like, I think maybe everybody goes through this, but maybe it's, I notice it more on you just because I know you, but it seems like you get down, down, down, and then you're back crushing. And it's just like that, maybe that's just the game of ultra running, especially

those long ones. It's like, you're going to have peaks and valleys because, you know, you go out too fast, like in that one. That was the one I think, well, the first one I fell, you got third, but there's times where I was like, oh, my God, he's struggling. He is struggling. And dying. I don't know how this is going to go. And then you come back and you get fucking third. I mean, you beat a lot of good runners and right behind one of the best ever in Courtney. Yeah. If it hadn't been for those pros. Yeah. Yeah. They crushed it. If they wouldn't show up all the time. Yeah, I heard Kyle. We'd be legends. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So 10 years. And what was, I mean, I guess so you wanted to be in the mountains as much as you could, was that to take a

way the urge to drink? Or what do you think was the... Yeah, yeah. It filled my time because I can't be bored. I sit at home now and it's like, I feel like the laziest person in the world and I used to just drink and watch TV. Yeah. And that was okay.

You were fine with it. That's everybody did. Mm-hmm. That's I thought, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then now it's literally, you know, like this last week, it's, you know, I got an hour and a half to kill.

I'm not going to stay here. I'm going to go for a run. Yeah. I can eight or nine miles in. Mm-hmm. So. And so. And so.

So in speaking of that, like if you look at your volume now, what I know we talked about this. I was talking with Nick about it the other day because he was in that contest to try to, who could run 50,000 feet of gain quickest in a month. And he was in, you know, with Sean Remington. Oh, yeah. And so then we were talking about what you do. And tell me about what you do as far as volume and climbing. What's your goals?

My goal is 15 to 20 hours a week. Of running. Of running. And that's, and I try to, and I try to keep that, you know, over 60 miles. So to do that, say, like to get, if I'm looking to not run a bunch, like it's early in the season, like that was when they were doing that challenge, like through January, February. Actually, I think I started in December. In December, it was, I wanted to get a lot of volume, but I wasn't worried about pace.

So I started doing PISCA and I was doing it 20 times. a week and I did that for about eight weeks and that's like 60 miles a week and that was just to kind of build my base and then and then I'll kind of I'll shift that like now I need to be like 80 90 miles a week but I'll drop my elevation down to you know maybe 10 or 15,000 so it's the same amount of time yeah it's just different but less climbing yeah but doing Piscna it's like every race I've ever done I think to myself I should have done this more I should have done Pisco more I mean it doesn't matter it's like you're climbing something you're tired and the math on races. I mean,

most 100-mileers do between 20 and 25,000 feet of climbing. You know, if you do PISCA, you know, 24 times, you know, you're still not at 100 miles. You go run around the base a few times. It's pretty similar. Yeah. It's not that far off.

Right. And it's not a huge mountain, but you can get, I mean, there's places where you can get a thousand foot of gain in a mile. Yeah. You know, there's that one, you've told me about it. I think going up the, straight up above the Arboretum maybe,

but then also Nick told me one where if you go off the backside towards P Hill and then go down to that creek crossing on that road and just back to top, that's a mile. So normally the main trail is a mile and a half for 1,000 feet of gain, but you can make it a mile and then just get that gain because that's what it is. It's like you got to get those legs toughened up when they're beat down to still be able to climb at a decent speed.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, in the first couple weeks of that, it's, it's, it's miserable. I mean, it's everything you can do to get out. Then it feels like that third, fourth week, things start to kind of flip. And you realize, you know, I'm running up it. And before it was a struggle to get up in 20 minutes every summit. Then it was 18.

Then it was 17. And then, you know, you start to feel that progression. And that's when it's, it's harder to back out. I know. That feels good, doesn't it? Well, it's just like, you know, my entire progression with just being in the mountains and running is just physically and mentally I've gotten stronger and better. You know, you see those results and, man, I stop.

Yeah. No, I know. It's like, yeah, you can't. It's like a fire that's going and you just want to keep putting wood on it. But like you said, there's times it's almost out. Yeah. You got to get down there and get some, a little bit of kindling on there, start blowing on it a little bit. Maybe some shavings.

Maybe some hell. Yeah, throw some gas on it, something. Well, yes, but someday when you're in shape, I don't think there's a better feeling than running mountains to me. I feel like as strong as I've ever felt when I can run hard in the mountains through the woods. Yep. Yeah. It's unstoppable. I know.

Yeah. I wish everybody could feel like that, actually. Yeah. Yeah, I do too. But, you know, seeing how many people have gone up Piscuit with that book. I know. It's been awesome. Oh, my God.

That's great. It's, that's seeing people post and share that. You know, we go up and we spend our time there, but we're only there for a sliver of the day. There's other people who are up there while we're working or doing whatever we're doing. And you see those names in that book and you realize there's a lot of people up here. Yeah. That's good. The book that Taylor's referencing is originally somebody who took the original book up there?

Carl. Carl Llewellyn? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I love Carl. God, he grinds hard. And here's a fun fact about Carl back.

I had shot this buck. We had called the legend because everybody would see it. is up Marcoa. It'd cross the road on the power lines all the time, and it was giant. And I was obsessed with this buck. We called it the legend. It was just a huge black tail. Somebody stole those antlers from me.

But anyways, one of my last rifle kills. And me and Jeff Nilsson were walking up there. There's a piece of BLM. And sure is shit, the legend was standing out in the unit up on top. And I shot this buck. And now I can't even remember where I hit it. It must have been back or something with a 300 mag. So it did some damage.

But anyway, it ran off. And rifles don't bleed that. You know, a wound from a rifle doesn't bleed like a bow. But it took off. So I had a few guys up there trying to help me track this thing down. And Carl actually found it. So this is back. This would have been 35 years ago.

Yeah. And, you know, we're all from our cola. He found it. We got pictures in the back of my truck. everybody and uh carl was the one so now fast forward 35 years later carl is still up there grinding the mountain he's still got a big smile on his face he's got the really tough uh hitch cover on his truck he's just been this guy who's been in my life in and out for forever and so he took this book up there for because he sees you all the time too and so i think i think it said taylor spike you have mail

and it was just a leather bound book and people had signed it. I had my guest that I'd come on the podcast. They'd sign it. And then somebody took it. Is that right? Or did it disappear? Yeah. Somebody had wrote in there,

this is trash. There were some comments in there that were like, of course. I thought about tearing the pages out. I was like, you know what? This is part of the deal. Yeah.

And then it was gone. And I had taken Paxton, my youngest one, and his buddy, it was on like a Sunday. And I said, they're 14. They need to run.

And they're not. They're sitting around doing, nothing. So you guys are coming with me. So we took him up there. I said, I'm going to show you the book. And then that's when we realized it was gone. Oh. Yeah. It was, it was gone. But we saw Carl on our way down and we kind of had told the story, you know, about I brought him up here. But he's like, okay, well, I'll replace it. And then sure as heck the next day, he was up there with a new book. Yeah. A bigger book. Oh, yeah. Well, now there's a new book up there and there's new signatures in it. Yep. That's kind of a cool little thing. But yeah, it's great scene. And you see all

ranges of people up there because it's not a crazy climb. I mean, you can do it if you have some time. Yeah. And we get up there. We see, I've seen guys who, you know, it's a struggle, maybe 300 plus pounds, a struggle to get up there and they're up there. Then you see, I mean, you know, some of the best runners in the area just crushing it. So it's like, it's kind of this, it's a draw for everybody just to come and be something positive, something to acknowledge others for their effort and you get to the top of the mountain and you got the monument up there and it's just like I feel like you won the day. Yeah.

That's why we do it, right? Yeah. Especially for the amount of years we've been doing it. I know. Have you ever thought about how many times you've been to the top of that thing? Yeah, I have no idea. Thousands of it. Probably, yeah.

But it doesn't ever feel like that. I mean, when I go up, I don't think I've been up for thousands of times. No, it's like still that moment and that push and that run that you're thinking about, right? It's still, like, you know, sometimes I'll go and it's like, well, I need a little bit of time to warm up. So I'll go and I run along the river and go out to the far gate and go up. Because if you just go from the parking lot up the main trail and you push, that is freaking hard. I mean, it hurts so bad every time. That little, that little pull right there.

Oh, I know. You have the first little bend to the left and then you can kind of see up. Yeah. It's miserable. Yeah. Your legs feel like they're solid loss. They don't want to move at all. No.

And if you push right there, of course, nobody wants to really push all the time. You know, you kind of like just chop it up little steps. But if you actually push, oh, my gosh, it gets, you know, you know when your arms are tingling. It took me six weeks. Yeah, about six weeks of doing repeats on that, 15 to 20 to the point that I could run that whole first portion and feel pretty good. And then run the whole thing at that same pace. But it took, I mean, that's 80. It's a 60, 80 times doing laps right there to be like, oh, I can finally run this.

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Is that your goal? Or what do you try to do? I don't have like a goal per se of like mileage or elevation I'm trying to get every year, but it comes out to about that. It's about a half, yeah, half mill. I think I've done 600, like almost 700,000. When you do the 200, it's all of a sudden that mileage changes. And then because that's over a weekend or a week.

And that impacts it quite a bit. People don't realize that. But yeah, it's usually around a half. I've gone up and down since we moved to Harrisburg, it dropped. Because when I lived, you know, six miles or eight miles from, Piscay. It was a lot easier to get in, get over there. But, um, but I try to make it work. Mm-hmm. And then you're on Strava. So everybody's always looking at that. How does, what, what do some of those guys do? Is that, is that a big year for everybody, 500,000 or?

Um, the guys that I want to run with. Yeah. That's, I'm pretty average. You know, there's, there's guys that are doing, you know, 130, 140 mile weeks with 30,000 feet of gain. I mean, they probably don't work as much as I do. Yeah. They probably don't travel for work like I do, but, you know, they're crushing it. You know, and I see those guys like that I did that Red Mountain 55K last weekend. And this, the girl, the lead girl, I watched her bright Brooks Jersey for three and a half hours catching me. Every climb I look back, gosh, she's still coming. And, you know, and then of course we eat nuts, she beats me.

We're two miles from the fish. I'm standing in the middle of the road. My hamstrings locked up. Oh, man. I'm just looking at the sky. She goes, you okay? I said, yeah, I'm fine. You know, I know it's going to blow it really hurt if I try to push it.

So she pulls me, but she won JFK 50-miler. That's a fast one, too. She's legit. Yeah. So those people who are beating me, they're putting in a lot of miles. Right. And that's, in my mind, that's the difference. Yeah.

They're doing more. I know. Isn't that? That's the cold, hard facts. I mean, talent is one thing, but usually, I mean, everybody who's doing that is talented so who's putting in more work essentially right yeah who can put in the most work and recover the best yeah and their body holds up because there's guys who i mean there's guys who put in 200 mile weeks and their bodies just don't hold up to it no that's

yeah to get to it it's taken me a year i always joke i say it's taken me a year running to add an additional 10 right just 10 miles to the week so if i'm going to run for you know 60 six six years years you're at 60 miles to get to get comfortably to 70 miles it's going to take me another year running right that's how I've get your body built up yeah yeah you just don't go you can go do it once or twice but you'll be broke yeah I know because you know you know as well as I do to get a hundred mile week that's 14 miles a day yep you know and so that's fine you can get 14 miles a day you can get a weekend you can get your 100 mile week but what are you going to do the next week yep in the next week yeah that's like I race last weekend I was like this week and this week I would

love to lay low, but that's not the deal. No. I mean, you got to build on. Because as you know, with those 200s, most that race, you're beat up. You know, I mean, say a 30 mile run, a 50K is a test when you first start.

So you do 200 mile race, you got 170 miles after that 50K. Well, I joke and say everything after 10 is far. It is. I've also said that everything after 10 ain't nothing changing. It's not going to get any better than it is in that moment.

Right. I mean, if you're 60 hours or 80, I made it Moab, it no, when you and I did it, it was like, no point are you going to feel ever any better than you did at that first 10. Oh, man. That was a, that was a rough race.

That was your first 200? Yeah, that was, yeah, that was my, after we lost Donovan, that was what I decided to do was do that with you. Yeah, that was. So tell me about Donovan. Well, um, which part, I guess. Well, I just want to, I mean, you said after Donovan, so just to give context to that, Donovan, so he was your wife's son.

Yep. And you were his stepdad. Yep. And he got in a car wreck. Yep. Yeah, I, yeah, he'd been in a car accident. I remember that day playing his day. It was, I had a dentist appointment at 7 a.m., which is crazy early.

and I had saw it on the news, saw the pickup and thought, dumb kids, you know, driving too fast, drinking and driving. You didn't know it was him at that time. No, no. And then I was driving to the dentist's point. My phone rang. It was Pam. My wife sobbing. And then actually I came to your house.

That was the first place I came. I didn't even go home. I had known what happened, but I needed to tell somebody. So I told you. and Donovan I had came into his life he was about he's about 10 so that's a that's a tough age for a stepdad to try to to come into a situation and we had our bumps in the road and and he'd straighten straightened himself out and then was killed a car accident so yeah he was 21 yeah young kid a whole life ahead of him and just had he made some bad choices and but had you know

It's like all of us. We all grow up at a different rate, I feel like. And, you know, it takes a little while for some of us to get traction and get some direction. And he had got there and then he got killed. Yeah. I mean, I can't judge anybody. I could easily have the same fate, you know. I mean, like you said, we all make mistakes.

Yeah. Sometimes some of us get, I guess, lucky, you could say. And you don't have to pay the ultimate sacrifice like he did from those mistakes. Yeah. I mean, you wish you could, you wish as a young man you would know what type of impact your decisions make, but you don't. You don't. And I know you and Pam losing Donovan. I can't, I mean, I don't know because I can't imagine what it feels like.

But I just know this has been very painful. And you've done an amazing job trying to honor him. I know a few times together. you spread his ashes on some of these trips we've done and these races we've done and uh you know keeping that memory alive and yeah i don't know i mean it's i know it's greatly impacted you but i wanted you know you mentioned don't that was your moab was your first one after donovan and so i just wanted just the listeners to know what that reference entailed and also it's it's really had an impact on who you are it feels like

like to me from the outside in. I mean, you can give, you can explain that better, but, um, yeah. Well, watching your family suffers hard. And for me, that was, that was probably the biggest pieces of it, seeing how, um, someone acted like I did, um, impacted their family when they're gone. Um, and then seeing my family and seeing Pamela from laying on the couch, you know, sobbing herself to sleep because she didn't know where he was to holding his urine of ashes every night. I mean, that was a year for holding him. as ashes at night falling sleep on the couch, right? And seeing how that impacts your family, you know, you don't have any choice but then to do better, right, and to be the best

version of yourself. And all those, you know, trials and tribulations and during that same time we were forced to move, lost my job after 20 years, all those are really good reasons that probably everybody else would use to drink, right, or do something they really shouldn't. But I had running. People are encouraging me to do it. People push you to do it. So it's like I was going to engulf myself and that and go bigger and go farther and go faster and that's what started to drive that was doing moab with you and then being like i really i want to do this i want to do it fast and i want to faster yeah i mean you don't you can't really blame anybody for wanting to numb that pain and that's where people turn to drugs and alcohol is like because it hurts so bad you just don't

want to hurt you don't you're tired of hurting and um it doesn't that doesn't change you the pain and just kind of delays it. You know, I mean, the drinking. It's just like, I think how you've done it, dealing with it and being, you know, the mounds are real. The emotions aren't going anywhere. It's actually more time to think, you know,

when you're out there. So I think it's more of a healthy way to deal with heartbreak in some ways because you're forced to deal with it, not forced to numb it. Yeah, you come out pretty focused after those. At least I do. know those first few weeks after those big events usually I have a lot of clarity you know

you have a lot of time to think you know you've processed your entire life for the first 12 hours and those you can do that in a 50 miler I know but to do it for 60 or 80 yep a lot of hope and tomorrow and regret yesterday right it's yeah it's pretty crazy um on those for me when I do those big races usually during the race I'm thinking I should have have done more as you kind of mentioned and after the race I'm like I if I would have done this I would have done that if I what didn't I push harder there do you have those type same type of thoughts oh yeah yeah yeah and it's hard to um yeah it's hard in the moment when when you train all the time and if you're not simulating it and then when you're in the moment to to say this is okay you know

it's okay to feel this bad because you don't want to right you just want to walk or quit or, you know, find reasons. But, you know, looking back on them, yeah, usually I wish I was done more. I did more focus somewhere else or had done something a little bit differently. But I've gotten a lot better at that than, you know, doing Tahoe as fast as I did, I don't know what I would have done any different. Okay. Those was like, I was tapped.

That was my, that was the best I got. Those were great runs to get third at that race, too. And also, it reminded me. Also, I was thinking back on Donovan, the pain in a race, that's going to ease. That's going to go away, you know. And so it kind of, I know, you know, when I think about losing my dad or when Roy died, it's like, this pain that I'm dealing with is nothing compared to what they felt about when they died. That's life-changing pain.

And not only for them, but for everybody who's left. And just death is so permanent. So it's like I try to give context when I'm even running Piscay if I'm being you know kind of a pussy Whatever I'm just like what am I doing? What is this is I'm gonna be home or even in I'll be home later today or even in a 200 mile race. It's like okay, that's a few days out of your life So temporary it's temporary. It's like it's really hard to give context to that but it's it's true if we can and then I've tried to also it sounds easy but enjoy it enjoy it enjoy it. Enjoy the moment. moment. And I think back to when you paced me at Big Horn, or not Big Horn, Bigfoot, we were about, what, 130 miles in, middle of the night. I don't know what time I was one or two in the morning. I think it was raining in pitch black, dark, rough country. And we stopped for a second,

headlamps. And, you know, I said something like, this is what it's all about, right? How lucky are we to be right here and feel like this? And, you know, if you can have that mindset, it's just like you have to earn what it feels like to be 130 miles into a race and still have. It's just like that's a special place that most people would never want to get to. And we were there. And so it's, I think it's important to enjoy how, what a sacrifice it took to be there. Yeah. And do you remember that?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was, man. that was the first was that the creek uh it seems like we were just on like i don't know we're kind of going across a flat i can't remember i remember yeah no the other one was the other night in the creek and we were trying to sleep in the middle of the trail and people were passing us you were getting so bad yeah that was that was i went out way too fast in that race and i was crushing everybody i was like i don't even know how many they i think they said hours ahead at mile 40 which isn't good

If you're hours ahead, it's not good. Because you come across, you go around, you kind of skirt around Mount St. Helen's all exposed. And so hot and so dry. And if you're pushing hard there and it's like you don't really need to drink that much that early in the race. So you get, I got so dried out. Then I got to 40 and they said, oh, yeah, you're way ahead.

And I was just like, oh, my God, that's terrible. And then definitely hit the wall. Yeah, but that was like the early years of the 200s. Nobody knew. Right. Nobody, people didn't know how to sleep and do all the things they do now. That was tough. You were just going to crush it and win.

That was tough. That was tough. But what an experience. And we were able to share that one. And that was, how far did you run in that one? Did you do 100? 100 and 156. Because remember, that was a week, like the week before I did Waldo 100K.

And it was dirt. I'd gotten to 100. Yeah. you got to 100 and I was like okay I'm out I'd gone like 60 miles yeah yeah because I picked you up a 40 something okay and uh and then like the almost last section I didn't do with you the very last I did but yeah anyways um I remember we got there and I'm taking my shoes off and you're like kind of resting and just kind of regrouping I should say and uh you're like what do you're doing and I'm like well I'm out man I'm done I'm not gonna run anywhere you're like whatever and I was like

I mean, really? Like, I'm supposed to be running like this whole thing? And that was the furthest I had ever ran. Then it was just like, I'm doing this. I mean, we're doing it. We were trashed. We remember how bad our ankles hurt from walking that dirt bike. Oh, that was a rough race.

Miserable. Yeah. But it's like it goes to show that no matter how miserable you are, how bad you hurt towards the end, I mean, I was actually running good. Yeah, like sixes on the road. Yeah. Yeah. And so if you can, if you can like remember.

remember that and go, yeah, this is terrible right now, but I know I've been here before where I didn't think I could go in. And then I was running hard at the end. Yeah. I just got to get through this little. That's the key to those long races. Yeah. Just getting through those low spots. You remember your poles?

Your pull when you were running down the road. Did I break them? Yeah, you made me go back and look for them. So Trace, you could take them to REI and return them. I can never find it. I don't know what happened. Well, when you start running, it's like, it got ahead of you and it hit the ground and you kicked it.

Oh. And so when it hits and it like feels like it breaks your foot. Right. Stop, you're like stupid. Threw it off in the brush. We just kept running. It's like, I'll come back. Never, never found it.

Never found them. No. But what a learning experience. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Because then, yeah, then it was, I'd been terrified of 100. You know, I had tried to do 100, but I had never done, you know, a cumulative miles, 140 or some miles we did that week. Yeah. or that weekend. And yeah, it just is a good perspective. You know, you learn a lot of being with somebody out there for that long. And being out there with somebody you know and that you trust, it makes it a lot easier, right,

to follow along. And then what was your first 200? Moab then? Yeah. That was the, okay, yeah. And I was supposed to pace you there. And we only had one crew guy. Yeah.

And you were like, well, you're going to be my crew. And I'm like, well, yeah. But I decided to run it the week before. Right. And you're like, well, you said you're going to do it. So I did my best. Yeah, oh. And we had that, yeah, the camera guy that was, I can remember his name.

A Mark? Yeah, he was Mark. Mark Wilmack from 7. Yep. Yeah. He was dying. Yeah. He worked hard.

He did good though. He did. But it was just us. We got some good foot. That was, oh my God. That was so hard. That started off like hot as hell. I've never been so thirsty to start off a race.

We were sitting under that one tree by that watering hole. Yeah. We couldn't do it. It was so dirty and muddy. You're like, I've drank. stuff in Africa and I'm not drinking this. It was bad but we were so dried out. Oh, that was terrible. It was miserable.

It was terrible. Then, uh, um, I still feel bad that whatever night it was, we were going to try to lay down and I don't know what. You get pretty, everybody gets cranky and I was like so burn out. You were burnt out and so so, like, kind of you were upset what what happened there that was going into the LaSalle's yeah it was like it was like nine degrees is how cold it was we were on the highway and then we climbed up on that kind of getting up on like a mesa and it started getting warm yeah and you were feeling good and it was heading towards morning and I was a wreck yeah I'm not a good morning person I think I threw my pole then did you know what I did I threw my pull you're like something like that yeah whatever quit me in a pussy or something you took off yeah it left me Yeah, I was like, to me, and now I look back and I'm like, God, dang, why wasn't I more? But to me, I'm like, I'm struggling so bad myself. Yeah, I can't really.

I don't have energy to. You're like, you're the Pacer. I mean, who am I to bitch? I mean, I should be, yeah, like the enthusiastic one that knows where we're going. And I had no idea. And I never do. Like, how many of those races we've done? You're like, how far do we have?

And I'm like, I don't know, 2015. Yeah. You're like, you're always wrong. It's always wrong. Yesterday, Greg tells me how far as you to the finish? I'm like, two. It was four. Yeah.

Well, and you know how when you're running a race and people are be like, okay, almost there. Only a mile left. And if they're wrong, you're so pissed at that person. You're like, I'm coming back for you. Yeah. Know the fucking race. What are you talking about a mile left?

Because you're like when you're done, mentally you're like they said a mile. I'm in a mile. I don't see the finish line. What is going on? Yep. And it's like you're patient. for knowing exactly but like that night i remember i don't know how far we were into the race that

time you were having a rough spot i always was like i don't have energy for this so i took off and i thought well that's a buck 30 130 is where it is i think was that war oh my god so brutal and so cold holy shit but uh so i took off and i thought well sometimes in those races i mean you see people again or whatever and it's just like i don't did we are did we see each other again at the top of going to Pole Creek. We were like 9,000 feet in the aid station. Remember I came up? It was like a war zone.

You were laying there. Oh, my. You're like, oh, my feet. That's right. Mm-hmm. So we had to regroup. Yeah. Get you changed up.

And then we took off and that was, yeah, that was the, that was a whole other. Those races are crazy. Oh, it's so hard. Yeah. That was the only time I've ever actually like, hallucinated or remember what? I couldn't read Nathan on the back of your pack. Yes, that's right. And I kept hearing women's voices.

Remember I'm like, oh, I can hear him in the aid station. You're like, you don't hear shit. Like, no, I really do. I didn't. Do you remember that aid station? I can't remember which one it was, but it was down in the bottom. And it was so cold down there, but that's where people were sleeping.

And did we try to lay down there? Was that at 160 or something? Or, no, maybe not 160. That is where we slept. That was the only time that we really actually laid down. Right. Because we only slept for like two hours that whole time for three days. Yeah.

We had done like little cat naps. Did they, there's like little cabins or what was there? There was a like a canvas little tents. Okay, yeah. Yeah. And they had little wool blankets and heaters. Yes. We slept there for a couple hours.

Yeah. Yeah. That's like 180. 190? Because remember we were on the gravel road and you and I said once you get to 200, I said, I'm not helping you anymore. Yeah. In my mind, I was going to beat you, but never happened. You dropped me.

It was right after that. We were running on. I had a big old pack on. and you're on the gravel road and I'd marked a spot. I could see the corner. And I'm like, okay, this is going to tell me how fast he's going. And you're doing like 730s and I was doing like a 12 minute mile. Yeah.

The math wasn't good. That I started to feel good towards end again. And that was like if you can kind of open up and for me and get a pace going, just like at the end of Bigfoot, if I can get, okay, this is what I do. I'm good here. Because you know how it is. when you're climbing, it's like you can, in your head, you're like, well, everybody's going slow now anyway. I don't need to go fast.

Yeah. Or, you know, if you're going down here, you're like, well, if I bombed down this, I'm going to blow all my quads. I need to be smart. But when it's flat, to me, I'm like, okay, this is what I do. I got to start grinding. If I can't open up right now, I'll never going to. And so it's like, to me in my head, like on that one, that was like a kind of a slightly downhill

gravel road, wasn't it? Yep. And I was like, okay, it's on. and yeah but so beat up by that time i ran it ran into the ditch face first i was i guess i was asleep oh i came up i looked around there's two guys standing they're just laughing they're like we're wondering what you're doing i just straight off the road man so tired that was a rough that's a rough race to all those 200s sleep deprivation yeah that's real real stuff but then so after that then you've learned and now with those third places at two consecutive Tahos, do you feel like you got a pretty good

idea how to run a 200 or are you just tougher? Yeah, no, there's a method to it. And that's helped me do all the distances in training mostly, things that I thought hurt, you know, kind of learning, you know what they feel like an hour and a half, two hours later when an injury might really be. You'd learn a lot about your body when you're running 200 miles. Right. So, yeah.

No, there's definitely a method. And it's, yeah, but it's so far. And it's so hard to recover from. Yeah. Maybe if I was younger, you know, if I was 35 or 40, then it might be different. But it's, it's months until I, after I did, Cocodona, because Cocodona was like three weeks before I decided to do it. And that was, I was not in shape. And it was.

And Cocodona is 250 miles. Yeah. And it's in May. So it's not like at the end in the summer. Right. It's been winter or spring. So that. Your body's not really used to the heat is what you're saying.

Yeah, that and the mileage, I just usually am not running that. And so that was a good test of what I thought I was going to need to do to do it. But it's, it was, yeah, it played out really well. I think I was like maybe 11th or 12th there. Were you? I thought you were 9th. Okay. I'm not really good at my finish time.

Oh. I've never won. Yeah, no, I know. But I mean, okay. Make no mistake. I want to make this clear because we've talked about like times where you didn't do good or I beat you or whatever. It's like now you are way better than me.

You're, I mean, you're finishing up there with like the elite runners. So Taylor has, his journey has been amazing because he started off just like everybody kind of struggling, wondering why you're doing it. Then you kind of have a purpose to why you're doing it. Then you're running for a bigger purpose. You know, maybe it's, you know, to be sober. Maybe it's to honor people we've lost. Maybe, you know, Donovan, maybe it's for different reasons.

But now, for whatever reason, you're like an elite runner. And I'm not. I'm not. So we run together sometimes. We race together sometimes. But you are way better than me. So I just want to make that clear. And I'm very impressed with how good you are at this.

And it's been awesome to watch. But I think you got ninth at Coca-a-Donough. If I'm not wrong. Not mistaken. Also, I'm really surprised. I look back at those and I like, I got an ultra sign up and look at my finishes. I'm like, man, I had a freaking run. Yeah.

Last year was a great run for me. I mean, I totally fell apart in June. But then all my races were second, thirds. And I was doing, you know, I'd definitely probably get my age group in those. Well, around here, you win all these races. Don't you? Yeah. Unless, like, there's a, I got, you know, my arch nemesis, Nate Jokwa.

Oh, he's tough. He's tough. He's tough. And the one time I had him beat, I stopped to tie my shirt. shoe a mile from the finish. He ran past me laughing. But I was shotgun. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which I've owned that one a few times. Yeah. And you've won Frozen Trail here. Yep, a few times. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I say. Like locally, you're tough to beat. You're a beast. Now you started getting in those big races. And yeah, it's, it's hard. They're pros. Yeah. You know, you have a full-time job.

And they're usually younger. Yeah, definitely. And you're, uh, so I'm 55. You're 40. 45 now. Yep. Yeah. And how do you feel physically? Like, do you feel like you were better when you're younger or you're the best you've ever been right now? Oh yeah. I could I crush my old self. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm definitely, yeah, my way better shape. Yeah. And I feel like I think how I should have felt when I was 20. Yeah. Yeah. Feel good. Yeah. I got aches of pains. I mean, don't be wrong. I got a list of things that need fixed. Uh, And someday those are going to prevent me from doing more. But that's just part of the deal.

I'm not going to like hang out my hat because my knee swells up every now and then. I'm going to want to run some more. Yeah. Well, I mean, you've been doing a great job. As far as diet, you've went from keto to non. What are you doing right now for your body? I'm on the calorie king kick right now. Calories is calories.

Whatever it is carbs. Yeah, I did two years, a high fat, low carb. I was checking my blood every morning, make sure I was in ketosis and that I was following the protocol. And not dirty keto or I think now it's probably a lot easier to buy stuff that says keto. But this was five, six years ago. When it first it kind of started, so it was different, the resources weren't there. So you were forced to eat a very different way. And I found a lot of success in that.

I mean, I ran S will be 100K. I had a really good time there and I never ate and I drank water and took in salt Wow and I felt good And what was your time in that

In 62 miles? I think I was like Is it nine? I think it was like 10, 20 or something like that I think it was like fifth or sixth Yeah that's a good 100K Maybe better

I don't like that I don't yeah I was trying to remember My marathon best time over here And I couldn't remember what it was Really? Yeah so I just Yeah

I think it was was an echo or that isn't there a marathon over there you did? Columbia River Powers. Yeah. Yeah, the year I thought I won. Someone else did. Yeah, I think I went like, it must be like 258. If I snuck in just under three.

It was a week after the bear 100. Okay. And I walked an entire mile. And I thought I'm going to go 240 someday. And I couldn't ever bring myself to try again. God. Those road marathons when you're pushing like that, you're sprinting. I know.

You did a six minute a mile for that long? Yeah. You did Eugene this last year. Your fastest, didn't you? No, no, not my fastest. Okay, well, that was probably good. No, it was 254. Yeah.

Something like that. Because I've never beat yours. Yeah. 251? 250. Oh, okay. Yeah. Where was that?

New York. Oh, yeah, nice. And then that Boston there was 250 also. So I've never, probably that was a best chance, but I wanted to kind of stay around Lance. But I think that was the best chance I ever had to get in the 240s. And I just, I didn't push like I could have because I wanted to be at the finish with him. But, yeah, breaking that 250, tough.

That was a good one. We were all watching on TV. I remember tracing everybody trying to message each other. Yeah. Yeah. That was 250. That's legit. Yeah.

I mean, it's not 240, though. It would be nice to get in the 240s someday. Yeah. I might have seen those days come and gone. That's going to hurt. It's going to hurt. Yeah, the last Eugene one was when Truit wanted to make Boston. So he had to beat three hours.

Okay. And, yeah, then I was like, okay, he needs to break three hours and he's not beating me. So that was like my motivation to push there. But, yeah, flat marathons are rough. So this year, what's your plans for this year for your races? I have the canyons 100 miler next month, the end of April. Of course that. Auburn, California.

Oh, so Western States. It's on that trail, yeah. Yeah. And it's supposed to do like 24,000 feet of climbing. And it gets me nuggets for UT&B. So if I can get the nuggets to be able to put in for the lottery. What's the nuggets? Is that like a qualifying thing?

Yeah, you have to have a nugget. I think it's going to score or stone. Maybe I made up the nugget part. Okay. Sounds cooler. Yeah. You have to have a stone. to be able to put in for the lottery.

Oh. So the bigger race you do like 100, you get eight stones. Oh, I see. So, and there's some age group win stuff there that could be appealing. I don't know what that really means. It could help my chances in the UT&B, and I feel pretty fit. So April race and then the end of July is Crazy Mountain. Crazy Mountain.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's where I'm going to race Nate, my arch nemesis. Is he going to do that too? Yep. But I've never done a hundred with him, so I'll crush him. I think so. I hope so.

I'm going to tell him so. That sounded pretty confident. You said I'm going to crush him. That's the plan. Yeah. I mean, hey, you got to believe in yourself, right?

Yep. So that race, you paced me at that race last year. Yeah. And you ran the back end with me. Yep. From 40-some to 100, right? 47 to 100?

Yeah, something like that. It was like, yeah. Oh, you ran like 30-some miles. Yeah, it was like 35 miles or something. And then Mike ran the other 20-some miles with me. Yeah. Yeah. God.

That race is rough. That race is rough. It's like that. I can't remember. So I think the first, the first half must be the hardest, right? Yeah. That's when you're in the mountains.

More so than the back half when it was like we're running through a grass. A million degrees. It was hot that day. And the road at the, yeah, it was pretty miserable. Yeah. But oh, yeah, now I remember the pictures we're pointing up at the where we had to go. There's no trail.

Through the grass. Yeah. That's a tough race, dude. First year they ever had it was last year. And I think only one person broke 24 hours. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah.

My goal was 30 hours. I'm like, okay, this is going to be a hard one because I had all that climbing. And it's the first time they've ever done is pretty rugged country. I was thinking, you know, if you get under 30 hours, that's a good run. And then I couldn't even do that. Yeah, just finishing those, though. I mean, it never, it never matters how fast you do it. It's, you know, it's just that you get it done.

Yeah, I think that's what we talked about. You know, that's all part of the deal. It's, you get what you put into it. You know, they're hard. That one, too, also, I had messed up on my salt and I wasn't taking enough salt in. So my body was so screwed up. You were all jacked up. Oh, my God.

I've never had my arm swell and legs swell. And it's like, I don't know what I did to my body. I was also trying the keto thing. Yeah. So had a lot of issues in that race. Yeah. And we were laughing because all of us who were with you, we're like, oh, yeah, that happens all the time.

And you're like, this isn't good. We're like, it'll go away. Oh, man. But it hurts. That was rough. Yeah. Yeah. But when your body starts doing weird stuff, that's what gets scary.

Yeah. Because especially if you never experienced it. It's like, you know, is this my liver failing or because trust me, well, we both said in those races that sometimes we wish that something really bad would happen. Yeah. At Bigfoot, we were hoping a mountain lion would attack one of us. No. We could quit.

But they were like, well, then I'd feel like I'd have to go on in your memory. Yeah. Well, then that's not going to work. Yeah, it'd have to kill both of us. Yeah. That's going to be tough. Yeah. I remember in Montana at the crazy mountains, man, there was, I ran with some guys.

God, that one kid, he's actually really good. Now I can't remember his name. But he's good. He does kind of younger kid doing crazy stuff. But I also ran with this kid from Texas. And I thought he was doing so good. He's definitely going to finish. And then he ended up dropping.

It's like you see these super tough people that look so good. And then I don't know what happens, but it gets overwhelming those races. So much ups and downs and 100 even. Yeah. I've quit. You know, I quit at Cascade Crest. That was a bucket list race. I really, really wanted to do.

And I dropped at 50. and I slept for like eight hours and woke up and went, I'd still have 13 hours to do the last 50. And why did I drop? Why not I just sleep? And I was going too fast, got ahead of myself. But then in the end, that was the first big, that was the first time I really dropped it.

I was like, I should have just pushed through. I knew better. I knew better way. And that's, that was kind of a shifting point to kind of focus in some training, right? It's like going out too hard and trying to win isn't, isn't smart. Right. So yeah. I don't know. You can learn a lot in those races. I didn't want to touch on, you know, your dad, Greg, my stepdad, who, you know, people who've read my book and heard me talk. You know, I've had quite a history. You know, Greg, when I was young, he was like, couldn't stand him. And it's just like, you know, he wasn't my dad. He was drinking this whole thing. And I was like probably the worst kid ever to try to be a stepdad too. And now I see Greg now and it's like a totally different person. But you're your guys' relationship.

I'm not jealous, but I'm happy. I'm happy you have that a dad that you can share so much with. So I'm not jealous at all. But it is, it's amazing to see how, well, I knew he's tough because I was always scared how tough he was. He was like, you know, this guy who drove a roller every day. day out in the sun, just come back, just, you know, smoking cigarettes. The meanest person I've ever been around, it felt like. And then I was like in the crosshairs.

But now I see him and he's saving people's lives. He's out running, doing 100 mile races. He just did what, a 50K yesterday. Yep. And save somebody out of a burning building last week. Yeah. Tell me about great. Well, man, I'll tell you what, kids in a blended family.

family, that's a hard thing. Yes. Donovan, same, you know, very, very similar. And it's really hard, like you had made a comment before, a comment before about having to go through things ourselves and not realizing the impact that we have. But trying to raise the son and watching my dad, you know, I remember him getting football tickets to a duck game on the 50-yard line. Hey, you want to go?

No way. I wasn't going to go with him. With Greg? Yeah, because he was drunk and he was goofy. And I was at that age, like, yeah, I don't want to hang out with that guy. Yeah. But, you know, he sobered up, and that's the version that I ended up getting, right? It was this sober guy who was trying to make up for a lot of mistakes.

You know, you and Pete had moved on, and he went out of his way to try to fix, you know, whatever he thought he'd screwed up with me. And he and I are, man, we're best friends, you know, but it wasn't always that way. Right. Growing up, your dad still sucks. You still know way more than him. You're still going to challenge him through and through. but you know yesterday there he is hands on his knees at mile 27 coming up a sand dude four miles of sand on the Oregon coast hands on his knees and he's groaning and I yell this is what you

grounded me all those times and I can laugh about that I mean how how lucky am I yeah I mean I yeah that's having him now and seeing myself and him you know a lot you know that time to drives me nuts but then I realize you know how to navigate it right I'm grown up up a lot and he has to and yeah he's he's he's a he's he's as funny but he's he's got the yeah those guys were all raised by ranchers and guys raised to go to war right so their mentality and the way they apply pressure is very different than what how we do and you know that's coming back from vietnam and him being an alcoholic that's you know he says running's changed his life and has given him perspective in his life he never had before so that's that's

It's 50, 60 years later. I know. I know. 75. Yeah, July he'll be 75. And out there doing 50Ks. In seven hours. God.

I know. So I always knew he was tough. I mean, like I said, he had that upbringing over there in Echo, Oregon, grown up on a ranch. It doesn't get any harder than being shipped off to Vietnam. Coming back and work in construction his whole freaking life. It's, uh, I don't know. Is there. that's about as hard as it gets, you know, that's a lot to deal with.

Yeah. I don't know. It's, you know, in some ways, you know, growing up, I hated him. But in some ways, you know, I think mom told me this, that maybe he was trying to prepare you. And maybe he did make me tougher. Maybe he did. It felt, it felt I didn't see any positives at that. time and I couldn't wait to get out of there, which is why I moved out. One of the big,

well, I had a girlfriend too. So maybe that was an excuse. But was the big reason why I left when I was 17. But, you know, now I'm so thankful for him. I see him. And it's not a negative when I see him. It's a, my feeling is a positive. And I'm happy to see him. And it took a long time for that. But and now, you know, when I see what he did last week and just how, you know helping that woman out of that burning building i just have a sense of pride and i'm very proud of them and i'm you know i'm i'm i don't know it's just this life deals us crazy hands sometimes and i'm very thankful for him and you know if it wasn't for him there'd be no you and there'd be no mason and i'm thankful for what he's given my mom too because a woman

having to have two young kids and find somebody who would take that in, as you know, with Pam, with Donovan. It's not easy. That's a lot. That's a lot for somebody to come in and take the responsibility for. Yeah. There's a lot of opportunity to say this thing for me. Right.

That's the part that, you know, blended families are nuts. I mean, I just, you know, it's textbook. You know, when you look back on some of it, it's like, so here, here's the older step brother who's successful and hardworking, right? Charismatic and then Pete, you know, is having babies when he's a kid. And then there's me who's a black sheep, dip shit growing up. And then Megan goes to UFO and gets her, I don't know, but I don't know what her degree is. I don't know what she's smarter than all of us. Right. So it's like, you know, looking back on it, I just, yeah, blended families are just crazy. And now Pamela and I have in Paxton, it's like, it's a lot easier. The things you can say to

your own kids. You can never say to a step kid. Yeah. But, you know, it's, it's, I learned from you and him, you know, it's that, um, just plugging along, right? Keep your head down. Keep grinding. Keep hammering. Right. So that's a mentality. And I think we both got that from him and, uh, just that hard work piece. But mom's a piece too. Yeah. All those years of jazercise. Oh my gosh. I know. Hours and hours. No. She was, uh, and then also it made a little bit tough because, she was like a super hot mom back then so like the like the kids you go to school with they're always like talking about the hot mom i think they're called milfs these days but uh yeah she was like in shape uh like had a like big smile great personality um but yeah she she worked her butt off too

yeah and uh i mean she was like the only thing i don't know i she was like the most positive of thing in my life for sure. And a tough, tough, um, it was hard for her because I would always try to make it like you have to choose between me or Greg, you know, because I'm like, it, how, and that's a no-win situation. She needs a husband. It's hard. It's amazing to me seeing kids who have step parents, like stepdad's and that they're, they all seem cool and happy. It's almost weird to me because I've, I've, I've, I've raised, you know, kids in that. And that's, situation man it's hard it's hard i can imagine being the kid on the other side of it after raising a boy a son doing that um and just listening to your experience and not being part of that you know it's

to see this guy come in to take your mom it's like yeah it's my blowing yeah super hard super hard for a kid to process and to get them just to be okay with it yeah definitely um what would you remember so Pete was closer to you and age did you have a different relationship with Pete growing up because Pete's my younger brother or your but everybody's my younger brother and sister but he was closer and age to you did you guys have more of a connection um no it was very similar to to uranize yeah it was uh I mean he was he was having a kid he was how he had a big kid I know and he had moved out super early you know maybe they live next door but he wasn't living at home right yeah he had a kid in high school

Yeah. And I, and great athlete, I mean, I was never as good as an athlete as he was, but he had to deal with a lot because he had Ashley when he was in high school. Yeah. So, yeah, no, he was, he was growing up. I mean, it was, yeah, I mean, not a ton. Yeah. You were kind of on your own a little bit with Megan, right?

Yeah, yeah, we were. Yeah, that gap was big enough and you guys had moved on. And, yeah, it was just Megan and I and being raised. by Greg, you know, because during the winters, he was never working. Yeah. Right? Doing road construction. And yeah, it was, yeah, interesting.

Lots of top rom and spam. You know, I think about it now as a parent. And it's just, I know the times are different, but it's, I don't know. Well, I can't blame him too much because when I had to be in charge of feeding my kids, you know, it'd be either waffles or chili. Yeah. So Greg actually did use to make some weird cats. casserole thing with mashed potatoes and hamburger.

Do you remember that? Oh, yeah, with the cheese. Cheese? Yeah. So, I mean, he actually. Yeah, he actually could do something. I mean, as far as cooking goes. But yeah, I mean, I don't know.

When did he get sober as far as when you were growing up? Was it after he got out of high school? No, I was 13. 13. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Same age as Paxton is right now.

Yeah. Yeah. He wrecked his pickup in the driveway. God. And he came in. I remember looking over the shoulder, wondering what was going on. And I remember I could see a plainest day.

He'd walked away and it was Serenity Lane. And I knew what it was from commercials on TV, right? Right. So yeah, that was his, that was the start of his journey. Oh. Through Thanksgiving and Christmas.

He was in rehab. Really? Yeah. I remember he got to come home so we could get a Christmas tree. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. What,

I mean, what a positive, I mean, negative during and that whole thing, but life changing. And it's just like, you wish everybody who struggles with alcohol, which is a ton of people, could see, I mean, he's a different person now than what he was growing up. And it's like a whole different, it's like,

yeah, it's a different existence. Yeah. Yeah. And more positive, inspiring people. Yeah, I got to hand it to mom though. That's the one I always, I always think about like, pay up one of the same. It was like to stand behind, stand besides somebody while they go through that. What an opportunity to leave. I know. You're in rehab. You messed up. you made all these bad choices, you were drunk that whole time? See you. Yeah. But they don't. It'd be definitely easy to do, wouldn't it?

Yeah. But they just, they hunker down and stand behind them and do everything they can to make it right. Yeah, she's been very strong this whole time and been through so much to herself. And I don't know, his life isn't easy. But all we can do is, you know, we look back on what we've learned, the relationships we've had, like I'm so thankful for our relationship. and being able to share running, you know. It's like you don't hunt as much anymore,

but we still have that connection with the running in the mountains. And you're also in the mountains in the winter all the time. I mean, I know Tanner's mentioned wanting to get up on some of the sisters and this. And I said, well, talk to Taylor. He's climbing those things all the time. So what do you do in the winter? I try to, we do a lot of like backcountry skiing. We'll pack in, we'll skin in somewhere and climb something.

You know, we'll like Diamond Peak. I've been on Diamond Peak in February now a couple times. And it's a big local peak and it's a 12 mile of slog and 6,000 feet of climbing. And it's an all day or, you know, it's one of those. It's eight hours to get up and one to get down, you know, because you're skiing now. But it's just the, you know, it's a ride that you get after all that effort. It's just a... When can you get up on the sisters?

Any... Weather breaks is your biggest thing. But, you know, really, it's going to be probably June. I bet you it's July this year. Yeah. That's the first time you could get up there. Yeah. I mean, I've been up there...

You can get up there any time of the year, but condition... You know, depends on what you're trying to do. Right. To ski... To hike it and ski it, you've done that in the winter, too? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, off the South sister.

Okay. At the South. I don't know why we the middle those are slogs yeah middle's in the middle I mean it's it's hard to get to the middle yeah but even the south can be because it closed the highway right it goes across there so that's right snow machine you can cheat and get a little bit closer but I'm not that cool I'm just walking a lot I know do you have any we tried we did that fk or we didn't do the fkT but we had it in our mind but do you have any because we were trying to do I think you did we did the three sisters then broken top and then I ran over and did Bachelor

and uh those guys do that so freaking fast yeah it's insane how fast they are yeah the five peaks the five peaks it's like six hour I don't know it's something nuts uh I don't know what it was but it took me a lot longer in six hours but do you have any um FKT attempts you're going to go after um I really want to have uh there's a uh core valve to the coast is a trail that they cut just recently over the past few years and ashton or i one year did it like when they first opened it and it's pretty funny we're like oh yeah we did it no big deal and like a couple weeks later this girl did like a ribbon cutting ceremony because she had hiked it oh we're like we just did that i guess we didn't know anything and uh they do kind of an

alternate course so i was trying to get her i want her to crush like the the who ashley yeah god she's good she's a beast yeah and so i was trying to get her to do to do it so I could have a good reason to run 60 miles before my 100 and then just push her because I think she can get like low nines and that would be pretty cool it's local she grew up in that area you know just up the road from us and that's a 60 61 miles when corvallis ends right on the beach okay so it's pretty cool course and it goes up over close to mary's peak so it says you know but yeah maybe that otherwise you know work so busy I travel so much and I just have what races I do on my list and try to focus on those

Well, with Ashley, I know I had never run with her before, but we did, what was that one we did? Diamond Peak. Diamond Peak. Yeah. God. And me, you, Ashley, Nordell, and I was like, who is this person? She can freaking run. Yeah, she was.

I didn't know she was such a stud. Yeah. That was a great day, though. She's like the classic school teacher, like quiet. And then all of a sudden, you're doing 100 mile weeks. That's like a thing you do. No, I know. She's just freaking good.

Yeah. I don't know. I, she wins, doesn't she? Oh yeah, I dread race at her. I don't know that I've had to. Oh, no, she did. She crushed me at Mary's Peak 50-mile or. And I ran that thing like 830.

Really? Yeah, and it's like 12,000 feet. She crushed me. Yeah, she's, I don't know. She's kind of under the radar. I don't know if probably people in the ultra running world know her, but I hadn't really paid attention too much. And it was like, well, she's really good.

But we, I don't know. There's some good. Good local people around here, Nate Jockwell, like you said, you're going to race him. Where was that one at? Crazy Mountain in Montana. Mm-hmm. Yeah. He usually does hurt 100.

Of course, we know Candace Burt. She's still doing her ultra every day for a hundred and how many days now? I don't know. Every time I see it, I just feel lazy. Like, I can't believe I only ran six miles. Yeah. So I know people, people have talked shit about me saying that I've done a marathon a day. which is like that's broke up.

And it's like only getting ready for 200. So I'll try to do, you know, multiple marathons in a row. And like, like people would say, well, that's impossible. I go, you don't know these freaks out here. Because now Candace Burt and you can follow her. It's run Candice Run on Instagram. But she's like a hundred and 18, 120. I don't know, of ultramarathons in a row consecutively.

And doing 50Ks, 31 miles a day. and still going. Well, and she threw the hurt 100 in there too. She did the hurt. Yeah, it flew over to Hawaii, did the hurt 100 in the middle, without missing a day and still did ultramarathons every day before,

every day after. And just the world record was, I think, 23 or 28 ultramarathons consecutively. Now she's 100 days over it. Didn't they start like a day apart? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. but she yeah so can this is crusher she is she is amazing um but you got these people in these these

ultra running world um people that that regular the general public don't doesn't know about that are just insane yeah and it's just it gives me um i don't know it's kind of sobering to think about what's possible so i think i'm working hard and i look at some of these people and i'm like man or even you when you when i When I look at you and I think of you doing 500,000 feet of gain a year, that seems, that's unreal. But you're out there doing it. You've got nothing else to do. Well, yeah, you could sit at home and drink beer like you used to. I could.

Yeah. This is a little better option, huh? That hurt more. Oh, I know. Yeah, mostly just the regret and to waking up the next morning going, what am I doing with my life? So it feels good to, you know, I know. You know, you are an inspiration to a lot of people. I know people follow you.

I know your recovery strong. Connection has inspired a lot of people. Do you want to talk about what those guys have done and how you're working with them? Yeah, those are my boys. Yeah. I went to go hang out. I hung out with them last week in St. George, Utah.

And it's just a group of guys with a new focus and a new reason. And it's just to do better. You know, we're not out trying to. to make money or do anything other than just be inspiring and make the right choices. Jared and the guys for Kerrishong have been super helpful. And, you know, it's one thing to invest in people, but it's nothing to actually invest in the person and try to learn from them. I'll go spend time with those guys and they're who I want to be.

Right. That's who they are to me. You know, when I try to look up to somebody that's made the mistakes I've made or whatnot, that's, that's where I go is those guys. Mm-hmm. And how long has it been since you've drank now? I'd actually put thought into this the other day. You did?

Yeah, so Paxton's 14. So it's about 13 years. Wow. Yeah, so it's about 13 years. And then the pill piece has been about it, you know, a little less than about a decade. Yeah. So, I mean, if you looked at your life when you're drinking and your life since you've been sober, nine day different, huh?

Yeah, very. Yeah, it's a, but in the, you know, in the moment, I never, I never, that's, that's what I try to tell people is you don't realize, you don't realize what you're doing. You think it's okay. That's everybody else is doing, but you're, you have way more purpose than that life. Like, listen to the Nick on here another day. I just, that's it. It's like, we need to do what we can to make sure that people can do better, you know,

we can make them smile or inspire them or I was telling Nick, you know, it's life beyond the desk, you know, is if you can get people passing. the desk and you know living their life a little bit you know that's that's my goal um yeah i just i've made a lot of bad choices um i've made a couple good choices that have positively impacted my family and my life and then others and i just want to keep doing that right well and nick did say that he was he was he's like you know he wanted to be a bow hunter he wanted to be a bodybuilder but he's like what am i really supposed to do and it's like just you know hug people yeah Just be a positive influence.

And it feels like that's, you know, in that same vein. That's what you're doing. And it's like I always see people talking about you, people saying, I saw your brother. And it's always this positive, you know, people bring you up all the time to me. And it's all good. It's like how you've made a positive impact on their life. And so whatever your goals are or whatever you've been through in life, all I know is what you're doing now. And it's, it's, you should feel perfect.

I mean, you're helping people, you're pulling back the curtain on what's possible to people and you're encouraging people and they're seeing you and they want to do more. So it makes me feel very proud to be your brother. Yeah, that's your problem. It's good to know that, right? Because you don't hear it a lot of time. You get little messages, but it's, it's an honor to hear that from you. I hear it all the time.

I mean, I'm so proud of you. You know, it's, you know, what we've been through. life and you being so much younger than me, but, you know, we're family. And the times we've shared now are some of my most cherished, the races. And just seeing you every time, it's like, it, it, it, when I see you, I'm always like, I feel, feel good. I feel it's, it's, it's, it's, I don't know, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just really proud to be your brother. So, um, thank you. thank you for how you've enriched my life and what you're doing for others and just the example you're setting to I don't know people can can learn I mean you've learned lessons and people can

maybe learn from your journey too and uh that's what life's about and I wanted to get you on this podcast and I wanted to to build it I just think that your story is important and I wanted to help share it so thank you for coming today Yeah, well, thanks for letting me be part of your journey, man. Yeah, it's super humbling watching you. Just walking in here is pretty awesome, even for me. Because, yeah, I'm your brother, but it's just to know that you're doing this and is what you've always kind of wanted to do.

And we've heard about it for years and to be part of it is super helpful. Appreciate it. Well, I love you. Keep up to good work. And we're going to keep making those positive memories. Love you, too. All right. Black Rifle Coffee.

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