Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 015 - Courtney Dauwalter

Episode Date: March 29, 2023

Courtney Dauwalter, is considered the world’s best female ultramarathon runner. She might just be the greatest ultrarunner of all time, period. To me, in some ways I see her infectious smile and cheerful personality as a smokescreen, because Courtney’s unrelenting drive to push the limits of human endurance potential in the mountains, belies these fun, welcoming characteristics. Behind the smile and the kindness on a personal level, beats the heart of an absolute and fierce competitor. If Courtney comes off as a lamb, I pity the wolf that hunts her.    Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com   Connect with Courtney Dauwalter: Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/courtneydauwalter/ https://www.instagram.com/salomonrunning Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/courtneydauwalter/   Special thanks to our sponsors. MUD WTR: https://mudwtr.com/cam Use code CAM for 15% your first order MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping First Light: https://www.firstlight.farm/ Use Code Cam15 for 15% off your first order Leupold: https://www.leupold.com/ Black Rifle: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv Bass Pro / Cabellas: https://www.basspro.com   Timestamps: 0:00:00 Introduction 0:01:10 Courtney’s LRS recap 0:02:30 Determined to hit the balloon at 100 yards 0:08:00 An honor to have Courtney on the KHC 0:09:10 Little fanfare behind ultrarunning  0:10:51 Do you hate to lose or love to win? 0:13:20 Moab 240 0:16:00 Prerace goals 0:20:43 Strength and weaknesses  0:25:50 Always room to improve 0:27:50 Setting lofty goals and taking care of yourself 0:31:00 Listening to your body’s signals 0:36:31 Pushing so hard 0:40:09 Courtney’s journey into endurance racing  0:45:19 The progression 0:52:00 Quitting the first 100 miler 0:58:00 Many years of learning 1:00:00 How hard do you push in training 1:03:00 Courtney’s running future 1:05:00 Adventures or races 1:11:20 Positive thoughts translating to performance  1:15:50 Advice to aspiring ultrarunners 1:22:24 Inspiring others to get on the trails 1:25:10 Fueling for the mountains 1:28:23 What do you think about on a 12 hour run? 1:30:25 UTMB 1:35:28 What am I capable of…. 1:40:00 Tahoe 200 1:45:27 The draw of the Colorado Trail 1:49:16 Closing  

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How are you? I'm great. How are you? I'm doing good. We've had quite a run the last three days. It's been pretty fun, huh? It's been amazing. We packed it all in.

Yeah. We've made the most of our time. Thought we might have had a little break this morning maybe and then decided to fill that time up too. If there's time to fill and adventures to have, you should do that. Yeah, yeah. So it was like late last night. It felt like we had a good day. Of course, we started off with 100K, which is hard for me.

I'll be honest. You're built for that. I was like, this is good but difficult. So we did 62 miles. Then yesterday did the normal lift-run shoot, run the mountain, carry the rock, shoot the bow, eat some food, lift some weights. And it felt like a good day, right? Oh, it was a great day. But there was something lingering.

Yeah, man. The back of my head. So when did I text last night, like, was I like nine or two? I don't know what time it was. but I'm like we have not run the mountain and we have not summited in the dark you said something about we hadn't run with a headlamp yet so we made the plan to get up early this morning go get a dark summit in we're the only one I pretty much the only one's on the mountain I think was there one other person there yeah those two people coming down yeah and then so we got that that was awesome and then there's still some unfinished business with the shoes Why don't you tell us what happened there? Oh, man. Well, yesterday at the bow rack, I felt really nervous shooting.

I felt really uncomfortable with it. It was barely hitting the target at 10 yards, but had great teachers. And so when we went out to the farm and got going further away, I got the satisfaction of a balloon pop. Right. And then we backed it up even farther. and we were trying at 100 yesterday for, what was that, like 10 hours of shooting? No, no. We gave it a valid effort, though.

A lot. Like, my arm was just quivering. It was rubber by the end of it. And that's a long shot with a bow like that at, you know, 35 pounds. That arrow's in the air for a while. I mean, it's up there. Yeah. So I was thinking of that 100 yards all afternoon yesterday, thinking, like,

I wonder when I'll get another shot at trying that. Right. It's not often that that situation is there where you're set up. You've got a place to shoot 100 yards. Everything's, you know, just it's like what we do here. So you've got to take advantage off things like that. Exactly. So we had to buzz over there this morning and see if we could get it done.

And we did. Yeah. My heart rate is still elevated. I'm like so fired up from it. So, I mean, just to set the stage, too, we set up her brand new bow yesterday. And, you know, it takes, it's a process getting that dialed in. There's a lot going on. There's a shooting a bow.

There's technique. There's different things people do with their eyes, dominant eyes, eyes closed, eyes open, shooting, changes everything. And at 10 yards, so you, just to put this in perspective, one time you changed, closed one eye or open an eye anyway hit this ladder in the background and it was like just drill and I thought we were deleting all that footage I thought we weren't mentioning it again no no no yeah I'm not I mean no no well this will definitely be scrubbed this won't this won't make the cut but uh so Courtney felt bad she hit the ladder until we looked at the ladder and there's holes all up and down it so no no biggie but to go from learning the basics with a brand new bow and then like I said

struggling with the, you know, eyes closed, eyes open, changes. It kind of the pin jumps back and forth a little bit. To go from that, to go out this morning just one day later, not even 24 hours later, because we were out at sunrise to try to hit this 100-yard balloon. But not even 24 hours later to be shooting. And your group, besides the balloon hit, the group was great, you know, all your arrows were right there at 100 yards. It felt like night and day from yesterday.

I was definitely still in the stage of thinking through every detail, like how to hold my fingers, where the pressure was. Like, where's my nose? Where's my eye? Everything. And today it just felt like the repetition paid off yesterday. Yeah. Like the motion felt a little bit better. And so I can see why shooting, you know, regularly every day if you could, would make you, you know, dial it in and be that much better at it. Yeah, I mean, on that footage, I would film, do you shoot that one at 100? 1001. 1001, yes, yeah. 101, not the Dalmatians, the yards.

And I was like, you pulled that bow back. And on there, I said, I like the confidence because you just had this like, okay, I'm going to fucking, this is happening right now. I was talking to that arrow in my head. Yeah, you were in the zone. Yeah, I'm like, come on, buddy. And the way that worked is we had like landmarks. back on the, if you've watched the video back on the far hill, it's like a couple miles back there, but that's where the reference point was for Courtney to hold her bottom pin was back. On those trees,

we had two, if you can imagine, two little patches of brush that looked like lungs is what we said. So we had the right lung and the left lung. Okay, first we started on the right long, no, that's too far right. Okay, hold on the left long. Okay, hold the top of the left long. And it's like, These are miles away back there, but we had these reference points. And we were both picking it up. And you held on there perfect. And, oh, it was glorious. Yeah, it was glorious.

I'm going to slow-mo watch that video often. But it's really strange to be pointing at not the thing that you're trying to hit. Yeah. Like, I couldn't even see the balloon. Right. I would see it when I first drew and lined it up. But then once I scanned, you know, way up for them. You're aiming in the trees.

Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, yeah, there's so much art to that arrow. But then, yeah, Wayne and Lisa, they were in the house there, which is a ways away from where we're shooting. They're like, well, I guess they must have hit it because we were yelling and hooping and hollering, you were running around.

And I don't know, it was quite a spectacle, but it was like so, so genuine. Because we had, we were vested interest. You know what I mean? we were we needed to see that balloon pop yeah we got the thing that we were going after i was thinking about all night i'm like please can we just and i said even on the way out there i was like even if it's just lucky can we just get a lucky one but it turns out your group was it wasn't luck it was total repetition and skill well uh probably some luck and some good teaching and a good setup a good thing to aim at wow we we had a lot of things fall in our favor

not only today, but just in the last few days. This has been a great honor for me to have you out here. We've been, you know, friends often, not off, not off, but friends for a while and got, had the chance to get together and run a few times, had some great adventures. But to have you come to Eugene Oregon, to where I grew up, and we did a big tour of the city, and just to show you all the things that were kind of important to me as I grew up and sharing some of those memories, you being somebody who I look up to and inspired by just because of how hard you push

and the example you said in just how you're at home in the mounds and are really pushing that threshold as an outlier in the women's ultra running space. And not just I hate even saying women's because just in ultra running in general, You were just like pushing the envelope and really shining a light on a sport that really hasn't got a ton. And it should because these athletes, you know, you included, works so hard for such a little fanfare. You know, I mean, you look at the other major sports and not saying that they don't sacrifice, but the amount of sacrifice into becoming an elite ultra runner is unrivaled to me. just the dedication you have.

I mean, how do you look at it? How do you look at where you're at? I think it's one of the cool parts of ultraming is that really no one's in it for the fanfare. No one gives a hoot if anyone knows about something they did. It's about, you know, huge days out in the mountains, seeing what your body is capable of, and seeing then how your brain can help your body.

do even more. Yeah, I think, well, you say nobody's into it for that, which I think some people do get into it, like thinking, hey, maybe I could be known here, but that doesn't last very long because it's so hard.

If you don't love it, you're not going to be around. Yeah. Yeah. If you don't really want to be doing it, if you're at hour 20 puking in the bushes, like, that's not going to stick. You're not going to stay with it. Yeah, there's no quick, quick rewards.

I mean, it's all hard-earned. And, I mean, I'm fascinated by, like, your journey and just, you know, I know all about your history. I know about your first races and where you are now. But as somebody did throw in a question, which I'm kind of curious about, I know you'll give the politically correct answer. But do you hate to lose or love to win? like kind of a cliche thing, but it's like, I feel like you're like a competitor.

You love the competition. But what part of the competition? Is it to do what somebody hasn't done before, like faster? Maybe because you talk about push, maybe reach new limits, or is it just not wanting to lose? I dislike if I finish something and know that. that I could have done better. So my, it's not loving to win or hating to lose. I think it's more like if I'm going to do this,

I want to do it all the way, all in, see what's possible, you know, and keep learning and growing from that. And where that lands me in the results is where it lands. me. Does it you gave your best effort. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to cross the finish line ever and think like, man, there was that five

miles stretch where I was just dogging it and, you know, got a little bit into a pity party or, you know, didn't problem solve. And I just let this thing get bigger than it should have been. I want to know that I did every bit of that course as best I could and cross the finish line giving it everything I had on that day. But then I also hope the next time I go to that same course that I could find the areas still to improve and do it better. Have you had a race where you didn't have those lulls?

Where I didn't have any lulls. Yeah, because you said that you don't want to have that five miles pity party. But is that, that seems like it happens. Yeah. On almost every journey. For sure. I have never had a perfect race where I was like, That was it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I hope to never. Never have a perfect race? Yeah. Because then what? Like if you nailed everything in it and you see no areas to improve, then where do you go from there? I understand.

I do. That makes sense that you just want to push because I can think back to the one race we ran. I didn't even know you at this time, but it was a Moab 240. And you were winning. I had, and I've said it before. thought you went the wrong way because I was like keeping track of or asking who was leading where they were and you were so far out early I'm like no way there's no what there's no who because I hadn't heard your name and I'm like what how could so how could some woman be that far ahead of

everybody and so I thought well you must have went the wrong way but alas you didn't you're just crushing it but I think to your point is you won by maybe 10 hours, I know you've talked about it a million times, but it's just incredible how much you won by, but you could have easily coasted in. You could have won by two hours. And you know, but so tell me, were you still pushing? Yeah, absolutely. And you weren't, you weren't worried about the gap. You were just worried. You weren't like, I want to send a message to these people. I mean, I don't know. I hope you were because that'd be kind of cool because you're so nice. It's like, I want to see you like with that killer instinct. But, but, but, so,

So what were you thinking? I just, I have more, so I want to push. Yeah, it was like, let's smash the gas pedal down and see. Mm-hmm. Because why not? And you can make then, like, targets, you know, as things unfold. So I think at that point, we had, my husband was pacing me and we had chosen a time we were trying to be, just to have something to, like, help keep the gas pedal push down. Mm-hmm.

And what was it? So what was that race? 60 some hours in that first one or was it 58? Moab 240 was I think 58. Okay. So you probably had, I want to break 60 for a while. Yeah. And then is that like pretty commonplace for each race as you like, so you have a big

goal and then you readjust throughout the race? Yeah, I think it depends what how it's going or what it is on, you know, what the thing all dangle for myself is because often I don't have any time goals like going into a race I won't have a time plan I'll know you know what people run on that course typically so I'll be able to gauge my effort like this is a 14 hour effort or this is a 58 hour effort you know just to know where to put the dial um but then as it gets later in the race yeah you can just find targets to shoot for to keep yourself accountable and keep pushing. So when you go to like UTMB, which what does that stand for?

Ultra Trail Mont Blanc. Right. Is that the most famous like international race, do you think? Yeah, I would say for Mountain Trail Ultra. So it's a hundred mile race around Mont Blanc. So it goes out of Chamonix in France, goes through Italy. in Switzerland and then back into France. Just must be an amazing country.

It's so cool. You got to get out there. I know. I watched the videos and the updates and the photos. It looks iconic for sure. But when you go into a race, so your first, was it your first year there that you won? Was that your first time running that?

Yeah. So how does, what's your mindset going into that? Do you look at like, okay, this one, woman won this time. I feel like looking at this course, I could run that time or better. And then do you go by that, or do you look at who's also running the race?

Oh, man. Probably, yeah, would look at, like, typical finish times. History. Yeah. What is the range that women are finishing in? What's the amount of climbing? What have I done before? That might be something

similar and, like, what kind of pace does that translate to? But once it starts, I'm not looking at mile pace ever. I'm going totally off of feel and just hoping to trust myself and make a good call on how hard to push and when to push. But I think one of the cool things of these mountain races is that everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. And so if you're a really good climber or a really good decender or, you know, your sections, because you can get splits from historic times too of like when they got to these aid stations.

And your splits might be totally different because maybe your strength is. Your skill set, yeah. Do you ever get sucked in like to start a race? Like do you ever go in? And like a race like that, the guys are usually a little bit ahead of the women. Do you ever think I want to try to stick with the leaders? I mean, do you or do you, is it too, you don't want to think about that to start off? like the lead men yeah just like the lead pack if you take off uh usually i don't i don't care what

they're doing okay because it seems like and i remember i mean you you hang tough you run hard the whole time but it does seem like and i don't know if they're fading coming back to you or if you're pushing more where you get like more of that k your um you know finish lines come and it seems like you reel in people. Like I remember maybe I'm just thinking about race in particular where it's like God, you're freaking climbing because that's such a huge race in the

in the ultra running world. It's like very rare for a woman to be up pushing and then you were up to like sixth or something. But were you reeling people in at that time? Yeah, kind of. And I have been over the years trying to work on that

like second half endurance and second half strength. and the second half mental game of like you don't let up on the gas pedal just because you've been already running for 50 miles like this is when you purposefully smash it down so the first part of the race might be you know management hold it in the orange you know be pushing but then uh towards the end it's uh going all the way in and hoping that i can hold on and trying to grow that ability to hold on to make it, you know, okay, I know I can push for the last 10 miles. So now this time if I move it back, can I hold it for the last 20 miles? Right. And do you get to where

every stride is an effort? Yeah. I mean, like you have every, because it'd be so easy to just feel like, I just need a break, just walk. But, and, but you're pushing every stride. Back and that's exhausting. Yeah, it's full just focusing on that one next motion. And do you like, are you thinking all the way your complete stride like pushing off with toes all that? Or are you like trying to break it down? Or are you just like just effort? Just effort and hoping that my leg will do what my brain is asking and land under me. Right.

Well. And so you talk about every runner has strengths, weaknesses. is what's your, what's your strength? No, I mean, you said every runner has, is better hills. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say is if you had, if you had your, you know, a profile and like, they always

say fighters are, you know, they rank them on, um, jiu-jitsu or wrestling or striking. And then they kind of rank them on where, where their skill set, like they're blackbone jujitsu, but they're a new striker, you know, so like if you had to look at your profile, what would your strength be? Where's your highest scores? So my lowest scores are

for sure, technical, like super rocky, steep downhills. And probably like top end speed would be my lowest. And the rest of them, I don't know that there's like a

highest or if they're all just flown there in the middle. And, uh, I'm pretty sure it's not middle, but go ahead. And managing the transitions between it all, you know, like, not having too much of a,

like your weaknesses aren't so weak. They're killing you. I mean, of course you'd want the strength to be as high as possible, but having like your deficiencies aren't that bad, right? So where you can, is that what you're saying? Trying to shore up your weaknesses, I guess.

and then it'll bring the baseline of performance up higher. Yeah. By having those valleys not being as deep. That would be the hope. Mm-hmm. So I don't, I mean, so when I answer that question, I instantly went to like the things I want to keep working on because, you know, whatever my profile is that I'm maybe better at or stronger at,

doesn't matter to me if I have these things that I can still improve greatly on. Right. I guess if I thought about it. So say if your strength was climbing, how much are you going to really improve if that's already strength? Whereas if your weakness is downhill, maybe you can make huge improvements there and then overall you'd be that much faster.

Yeah. It's like sharpening the dull blades. Yeah, yeah. I think that makes sense. So it's technical downhill. You like to work on anything else? speed just general turnover speed and then just continuing to grow you know like i think of endurance and strength like you're building a little bit at a time and so it just takes that consistency of adding

another little bit to it so if i can keep on growing the endurance so that maybe it's more possible to push even harder. Like get into another. So how do you grow the endurance is like that to me like like layman's terms it'd be like oh I need to just run more just get more miles then. How do you look at growing endurance? Just consistently adding to it, adding to the fire a little bit at a time. I don't think it like for sure you don't want to just keep training more.

that's how you go over the edge of that, you know, and start breaking down instead. So I guess adding little bits to the fire every day through just consistent work and then signing up for this stuff that's hard and trying and just seeing and learning from it. Black Rifle Coffee Company is a company that's very easy for me to promote because I drink coffee all. day, every day. But more importantly, they are a huge supporter of the veteran community and are a veteran-known business, so they have my full support. Use code keep hammering for 20% off your first order and 20% off subscription to the coffee club, where you get exclusive coffee blends and merchandise. Mountain Ops offers the best supplements on the market and

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and he said it took him a while to everybody wants those big mile weeks. He said it takes him a year to add 10 miles. So like if he's running 60 miles a week and a year of running, he can make it 70 miles a week. He doesn't try to do. And then another year, it's 80 miles a week. Then you're up to 100 mile weeks. But people want to be at that big mileage all the time or immediately. And your body just, man, it's just like anything.

If it's not prepared, it's just not going to work. Yeah. Yeah. So you've been increasing your workload probably your first 100. Was it 2012? Is that right? 2012 was the first one I tried that I didn't finish. Right.

But yeah, my first ultra was 2011. Okay. So just trying to. So just 12 years into it really, which seems like a long time, but it's like, I don't know, time goes so fast. Yeah. How do you feel like physically compared to where you've been? Do you feel like, I mean, I was just curious, do you feel like you're at your peak or you have,

you can get better or your peak was past? Where are you at? What, I mean, what would you think that someone would answer to that? Who would say their peak has passed? I would. Because I'm old. No, but you got to believe that there's always room to get better. Yeah, I know.

I just look at the, yeah, no, that sounds great. But I look at like, I can go to ultra sign up and see that, well, the trend is I'm not getting better. You know what I mean? Of course, there can be an aberration and I could maybe because I retired, maybe now have more time. make them be more focused on recovery. So there's always that little bit of hope that... See? Maybe there's some magic left.

It was like the full summit. Yeah. And now you're headed to... Yeah. Maybe there's like, could I be in the 240s of a marathon? Probably not. But I guess there's a little hope. So you're saying you're not at your peak.

You're getting better. I mean, that's the hope. Yeah. Yeah. And what's... So if you had... I don't know. if somebody said your biggest goal and you put in the work and you achieved this this this number one thing you could do this

I don't know what's your longstanding dream what would be like the biggest goal you'd like to achieve running i don't i don't have one thing i think it's to just keep finding out what's possible but like what if I said okay what if you were in shape you felt good mentally physically killing it and you were hypothetically, one hard rock, one Western. Do you like that? That sounds like a good goal, right? So I think that would be sick. I'm going to try my best.

And then what if, because UTMBs after that, that could that ever happen? Could one person win all three of those? In one summer? Yeah. Absolutely. someone could. Think so?

Yeah. Could you? I don't know. I'd be willing to try. Yeah. That'd be awesome. That'd be awesome. Because, I mean, you've had, let me think, you've won them all.

You've won them all separately, right? Yeah. So I wonder what it would take to have a summer of wins of the most prestigious ultras in history. A lot of cheeseburgers. I know, but how, now that, that's my goal for you. I just came up with it. Okay. I like it.

I'm in for it. If it sounds crazy, I think it's a fantastic idea. And I think something like that, it is possible if you can figure out the balance of, you know, the training and preparation, but also making sure you're keeping your body happy. because you can very easily, you know, get too excited, do a little too much, and then you're, yeah, you're just breaking yourself down and then it's not going to get any better. That is hard, isn't it? When you, like, say, I don't know what it feels like. I know what it feels like to be in shape, but say having a great run at Western, it's hard when you're in shape not to want to do more. Is that hard for you?

It's hard for me. It is super hard. I think so in 2019, I ended up dropping out of Western States with a hip injury. And I think what happened that year is I had done Western States the year before. I knew the areas that wanted to get better. You know, I knew there was space for improvement on that course. And so I just ramped it all up. Like, I'm going to do more climbing.

I'm going to do faster pace. I'm going to do more miles. It's like everything went up except no recovery or extra body maintenance was added to it. So I just asked too much without giving anything back to myself and it led to an injury. That is hard too because you think that, well, my body will respond in some ways. You think like, of course, yeah, this is going to be hard. I'm doing more than I ever have, but my body will respond. I wonder if also you need to, so if you're adding this workload,

adding this climbing, you need to add the recovery just the same. Yeah. So if you're saying 10% more vertical gain a week, 10% more miles, you need 10% more recovery. Yeah. You think? Yeah. And I don't even think at some point it's like more isn't actually better than you should be dialing in the quality of the thing you're doing as opposed to trying to pile on more quantity.

Yeah. Do you struggle with, because people will say that, but do you ever say, well, that's for you? I mean, I'm not trying to be like you. I'm trying, I don't want to be like anybody. I'm being like me and maybe my body's okay. Do you ever think that? I mean, probably a little bit, but also I have learned the lesson that, like, I'm not made of titanium. I'm not invincible.

So there is a line there. and I've been over the years trying to get better at just reading the signals my body is giving me. So when it's giving the warning signs, I'm actually listening to them instead of just blowing right past them and thinking that I'm better than those warning signs. I think it's really hard because ultra running is so pain-based. I mean, you're hurting, at least I am, but most people running, for days hurt. So, yeah, it's like, it's hard to say listen to your body,

because if you listen to your body, you would never finish one of these races. I mean, everybody is hurting. No matter where you are in the field, it hurts. Yeah, so that's what I'm saying. It's like you say you've got to listen to your body, but yeah, it's really hard to know when to listen. For sure.

And, you know, sometimes I still make those mistakes and I don't listen perfectly, but I think our bodies are really good at telling us what they need or, you know, when they need a break or when they need, you know, maybe some protein or iron or whatever, you know, they can give us those signals if we are paying attention. And distinguishing between those warning signs versus our bodies also like to throw up red flags when they just want to stop because that's easier. So like distinguishing between the two of like,

what's my body just wanting me to, you know, go sit on the couch because that sounds much more comfortable versus the flag that's like, you overdid it a little bit, like pump the brakes. Yeah, don't you think that that's a weird, like your body, like it's hard to think about that exactly. like your body saying this because it wants a break. Because it's easier.

I know, but like, who's your body talking to? Your brain? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And so your brain, because it's like this, it's just like this dance of like comfort, pain. It's such, it's so hard. And then also, of course, you have to be in shape. Everybody's got to be in shape.

So we're just assuming everybody's in shape. But then there's always that comfort and pain line. and you talk about it a lot with the pain cave. You've kind of made that famous, is you want to get in the pain cave and you want to explore and you want to dig deeper in there and learn new places.

So that seems a little bit counterintuitive to listen into your body, but that's the challenge, that's the juggling act of like, when is this serious or when should I give this credence and when should I just keep pushing? And I guess at Western, is that was it pretty clear that that one time you had to drop, that it was like, okay, this is more than just pain cave stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. And I, before that incident, I wondered myself, like, will I know when it's a real flag? Will I know to, you know, preserve myself and stop when the warning sign is actually serious? And I wondered if I could do it because I love pushing. I love that feeling of like digging really deep and getting to a finish line. And so I wasn't sure that I would have the capacity or maturity or whatever the word is to like actually listen. And when that happened during the race and those flags were going up and I ended up dropping,

it actually felt like a big step of trusting myself afterwards where I was like, okay, you do have the capacity to listen if the flags are important. So I felt like I was learning even better how to read the signals I was getting. Was it a relief in some ways that you could look? Yeah. Because I'm not trying to like, you know, run myself into a wall and, never be able to run again. I want to run my whole life. Yeah, I know. It's like, but I also like that feeling of immortality. I like not worrying about, you know what I mean?

It's like so hard though. It's it's so hard to make good decisions because you can't, you're not immortal, but if you have that attitude of nothing can hurt me, it's like gives you that edge a little bit. So it's just, I know exactly what you're saying. I've always said about you and not, I don't know if this is good or bad, but this is just, yeah, I know. But because you push so hard and it's so unique. And, you know, I saw you on the Colorado Trail and when you're going for that record. And like humans are, this is never anything humans have to worry about.

But like a dog or a horse could push so hard, they go die. You know, they just will give everything. And in some ways, I admire that. I'm like, could you imagine if you will push so hard you will die? It's like kind of, there's like kind of a romantic part to that because it's like most people, a little bit of pain. They're like, I'm out. I can't do this. So I've always said like you, you push so hard because like when I saw you at the coral trails, like you were like, I can't believe how hard you have pushed.

pushing and struggling so much. But then it also makes me worry that it's like, oh, my God. I've worried that you push too much, you know what I mean? So I like the, it's just weird. I'm talking about a lot of stuff, but it's weird to think about that it's a relief that you could read your body. But yeah, how do you, I don't know. Do you see that as a weird line of distinction between listening and pushing?

Absolutely. Yeah. And like that Colorado Trail incident, I wasn't, the flags were all coming up, but my brain was pretty mushy by then. Yeah. It had been four days or whatever, 300 miles. And I wasn't in the place to make the best decisions for myself. So at the aid station that we got to that I ended up dropping.

at. I was going into that aid station telling my pacers with me, like, let's grab a pizza and let's go. Like, I'm fine. Let's keep going. Because it was a new thing for me. I had never traveled that far with my feet. I had never been pushing for that many days. And I didn't know. I was like, maybe this is just what it feels like, you know? Like, I felt terrible. Yeah. How would you know, though? Yeah. And so I was like, or maybe this is just a huge low. I'm in and my body is going to adjust to what we're doing. It's going to jump on board and it'll be feeling better soon. Because it has every other time.

Yeah. Well, and that happens. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I luckily, I was surrounded by people who could make those smarter choices for me in that instance. And sometimes that is it. Like they can see the signals better.

Right. More objective. Yeah. They're looking at this isn't just a. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was a good decision to pull you out for sure after it was 309 miles, I believe, right? There's an incredible effort and just a high country. So beautiful, though. It was amazing. So cool.

That trail, so cool. But yeah, it's just, you know, obviously that was a great decision there. But yeah, I'm just, I admire how hard you can push. It's like it's so rare. And then you couple that with your physical ability and man this is why you're who you are um yeah so somebody who did ask also about how your running career started which i know but was that you started arctic or nordic skiing right is that what started as i started running yeah in high middle school yeah um like fifth and sixth grade we got to race the mile, and then I joined the cross-country team after that, and loved it immediately. I'd always been a soccer player before that, and my favorite part of the game was that I could run, you know, the length of the field the whole time, and that was like my one thing I could contribute.

Did you score goals? I mean, sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, good. When the other girls got tired. Yeah. Or whatever.

Yeah. So I knew I loved running, but I didn't, I guess those first races, like the first mile races, and then when I joined in seventh grade to feel the feeling of like I have all the control over what happens right now by how hard I push versus a team sport where, you know, there's so many things, so many people, so much going on. And I liked that it felt like I could push as hard. as I wanted until that finish line. And, yeah, that was satisfying, and I enjoyed, like, going like that as hard as I could. So I've heard you say that you love everything about running. Is that true?

Yeah. You said that, right? Yeah. So is that, like, back then, you just loved the feeling of running strong, giving your best effort. Is that what it was? Yeah, I loved the feeling. I loved how afterwards I always felt more like.

every system was working. So it felt like recharging for my brain and the rest of my body. And then when I joined the cross country team learned that it can be this huge social activity too. So it suddenly was a space where I was, you know, sharing miles with my best friends and going on adventures, you know. When was that? Like you guys would go running on your own? Yep. In middle school and high school, I mean, cross-country teams are special because often you get really close with them. And running has a way to make people like real right away.

Right. And so those were my best friends growing up. They're still some of my best friends, my cross-country team from when we were 13 together. Really? Yeah. You still keep in contact? Yeah. Hmm.

Yeah. But then I, so I loved that social bit of it and still appreciated it as a thinking space for me. So I remember in like high school going on runs by myself and composing, you know, my whole English paper in my head, getting home, scribbling it down on paper so I could turn it in. Like it was when my brain seemed to work the best too. Yeah. More clear thinking out there. Yeah. Less distractions.

What paper? Do you remember the paper? I mean, all of them. Probably every paper I wrote in high school and college was written on a run. Yeah, I know. It's hard to be, sorry, camera's pointing at me too. We've been dealing with this cough for this whole time, so Courtney's used to it. Yeah, I know the struggle for me.

is I have these, I'm running and I have these words in the perfect order. And then you stop to jot it down and it's never, it seems like it never was like flows as smoothly as it did on that run. Yeah. Do you struggle with that? Yeah, for sure. Or I'll get stuck like thinking of something and like the way I want to phrase it or something. And then that's all I'll think about for like a five mile run is this like three sentences.

And I'll be like, get off. that path brain like you got to think of something new yeah yeah no i know it's it's sometimes i go on runs and you'd think you'd be in a better mood but i obsess about things like i'm irritated about or somebody am irritated and like i get done with run i'm in a worse mood because i've been thinking about this thing for this whole time do you ever do that just stewing yeah are you always in a great mood. No, I've probably stewed on some runs. It's a great space for that. Yeah. It's like, you can counsel yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So if you think about like that middle school girl who would love the mile runs and just to compete in run. And you think, so that was, I don't know,

30 years ago, right? Like, how does that happen where you're just somebody who enjoys, running and now you're one of the most iconic women ultra runners in the world how does that is that just time is that just time and and having a passion for something and just doing it because it's your heart's full when you do it is that the secret yeah I guess I didn't know ultra running was a thing like um I know some kids some people in the sport learned about it when they were a kid, you know, watched these 100 mile finishes and it made them dream that they could. I had no idea. And to me, a marathon sounded like insane.

I couldn't believe people did those. And I didn't, I didn't, yeah, I didn't foresee this path ever. How did you hear of your first 100? My first 100? Yeah. How do you, how did you hear? When did you learn that was a thing? I did a few road marathons and then I wondered what else I could try that sounded really hard.

In that time period, I tried like a tough mutter. Like that sounded super hard, you know. Why? Because you like the endurance stuff? Yeah, and I just, I think I was just like looking for a thing outside of normal workday life that I could, you know, be. I was running every day anyways. So I was like, what could I sign up for just to see? Because who knows what will happen.

Yeah. Did a tough motor. Have you ever done one of those? No. Are they hard? I mean, I'd like to circle back at some point and see. I found it pretty hard, but you would be fine. I just, like, couldn't lift myself on a lot of the things.

Yeah. You're, like, climbing over these walls. Yeah. I've seen some stuff. I've never done it, though. We had to jump from this really high up platform into this free. freezing cold lake and swim across it. Fun.

Yeah. And then there was the, it's like electric wires dangling. Right. That electrocute you. And you have to crawl under. And they were zapping me and I was flopping through like a dead fish and just started giggling. Really?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was like, this is so absurd. I can't believe that I'm willingly doing this. Didn't you jump fire or do you do they have that at some of those? Yeah. I can't remember if that one had a fire obstacle. But I finished that.

And then I was like, okay, what else is there that I could try? That sounds, you know, kind of crazy. And a buddy that I knew was going to do this 50K, right, in the neighborhood park. Where at? It was in San Antonio. Oh, okay. Yeah. And he's like, want to do this 50K?

Like, absolutely. Yeah. It sounded like the perfect amount more than America. where I was like I did a road marathon, 26 miles. Which one was that? I can survive this 50K, you know, five more miles. Five more miles. Yeah.

Which marathon was your first? Was it that down there? I did the Twin Cities Marathon in Minnesota as my first. Okay. And then, so when you did that 50K, had you been running and getting the miles in? Um, no. I mean, yes. So I was running every day.

but I would consistently get maybe an hour before work and maybe on the weekends up to two hours. But I wasn't like following any plan or anything. I was just doing normal basically maintenance. Yeah. Because I loved it. It felt good. That's what I wanted to do with some of my time.

But I wasn't putting in a ton of effort to it. But the 50K then was on dirt trails. And I hadn't really run any dirt trails since, you know, high school, cross country or college training here in Colorado. And it was really cool to circle back to those dirt trails and be reminded of like the woods feel different than a road marathon course. Right. You know, doing the road marathon, it was like watches beeping all over. Yeah.

Everyone, like, checking them for their pace the whole time, which is great. But then to get to the peacefulness and, like, weaving through the single-track dirt in the woods and people just chatting and joking and, like, filling my pockets with jelly beans. I was like, this is cool. Yeah. And that then opened up the whole ultra-running world to me. So, and how did you do in that first 50K? Yeah, fine.

I made it. I was pretty sore Were you like Did you do better than you expected? I mean were you like whoa I did pretty good Or my compared to the field how'd you do? Yeah I think it went better than expected for sure Okay and you felt felt good about that then

So then was now you need to do something further Or another 50K? Yeah no immediately it was like What's the next distance I could try 50 miles. Yeah. Did you do that? Yep.

And how'd that go? That was cool. That was hard. And the 50K that I did in Texas, you know, exposed me to the sport, but the 50-mile race I did was in Colorado in the mountains. And that's what hooked me to the sport for sure. It was like, you know, incredible scenery. It was in Steamboat Springs, Colorado in the mountains. It was so hard, like 50 miles was insane.

That's like a long way. A huge day. And then just the people and their attitudes got me fully hooked on it. Like it was terrible weather, sleeting, like windy, awful. You know, all signs pointed to we should hate this. And the people around me were having so much fun. And I was like, tough. Yeah, I was like, that's cool. Like, I want to be surrounded by those kinds of attitudes.

Exactly, yeah. And probably a lot of people dropped in that race, right, if that weather was like that? Yeah, probably. Yeah, and you stuck it out and got the finish. Yeah. Yeah. Somehow. Yeah. And then that went to the Rocky, that was your first hundred. Was that the next race then? Yeah. Yep. So then I decided after the 50 mile race, I should try 100. Why not? Yeah. And then that's where I know I've read that a few times and you've talked about that a million times. I know I told you one time that if you have a podcast and they ask you the same questions that you've been asked before, you should say I'm not answering. Because it's like everybody asks like the same shit, right? But I just know that that Rocky raccoon, you know.

No, it was a run rabbit. Oh, run rabbit. Yeah, sorry. But you made it like 60 miles, right? Yeah. And then the pain was too much and you didn't realize that pain was part of the deal. But also, I bet your legs weren't, it wasn't like normal pain like now. Your body probably wasn't ready for 100. I mean, there's so much to ask of a body.

Yeah. You know, so it probably was pretty intense. Yeah. It's hard to, memories are so hard to know, like, what it actually felt like. Yeah. You know, because now when I think of it, I'm like, that was normal. And I just didn't know that I had the mental tools to push fast that. Yeah.

But for sure, I wasn't training appropriately for 100 miles. Right. And was kind of like probably skating in thinking like, you know, I did the road marathon. I tried that tough mudder. I tried this 50, you know, thinking like if I just keep doing my same one hour run every day and then a few hours on the weekend. It's, I'll be able to do these kinds of things and not growing the actual training bit for it. And then after that, you realized, okay, my training needs to ramp up also if this distance is going to ramp up.

Yeah. Yeah. Then is that when you got more serious about training actually for a hundred? Yeah, absolutely. After dropping out of that race, I was pretty bummed and disappointed in myself that I had quit, something that I started. Like we weren't raised to do that, you know, you finish what you start, you give it your best. And there I had dropped out at miles 60 of a 100 mile race and watched all these people struggling to finish it thinking like, I didn't let myself struggle long enough, you know, to really know.

Right. So instantly I knew that that was still a door I wanted to keep banging on to see if I could, do it. Had you ever quit anything before? I mean, maybe like gymnastics. Yeah. I mean, because I do know it's like people are raised. It's like, no, you finish what you start. You know, so and they always say that quitting is contagious. Like you get used to it. So that's why I was curious if that was like a you know obviously you've turned the corner and now you're like the most fierce competitor out there but it's like um i think that pain of quitting that and then see and i almost see when i see somebody still pushing and hurting i'm a little jealous like i've even seen it followed your races and it's like you miss that sacrifice and that knowing you're you gave it

you're all. And so probably watching those people who after you dropped out, we're still giving their all and we're going to get that reward. That was probably, that's the hardest part of it almost. Yeah. Yeah. And it was the perfect scenario for that because the aid station I dropped at was the most inconvenient to get to. So I had, I dropped. They, you know, cut off my bracelet to say, you know, you're officially out of the race now. And then I just had to sit there for, hours. Oh my God. Hunkered under like borrowed sweatshirts and blankets. Yeah. Watching all these runners come through as I waited for, you know, the random ride out that was going to happen. Yeah. But it was like front row seat, you know, to like, if you care about this

and want to do this, you have the perfect setup right now to learn how you could be that person who finishes. And you saw those people that were hurting just like you. were, but kept pushing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It looked like every step was so painful and they were, you know, super psyched and friendly, like, chowing down on food and then carrying on, like never thinking, oh, I should sit by her and quit, too.

Yeah. No, I understand. I mean, it probably was a blessing because if you would have been to swooped off and been at McDonald's and a half hour, like, God, that sucked. I'm glad I'm out of there. Way different than watching those people still fighting. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Probably a painful lesson though at the time. Yeah. And it was like, if you want this, you need to actually do something about it, not carry on like normal and do the thing you've always been doing. Like, you've got to be better. Did you have that conversation with yourself or?

Yeah. And that was just something you had, you realized and it's like, this is on me. Yeah. Because a lot of people like to, taking ownership over issues isn't like what people's most favorite thing to do. But you were just like, you knew you were honest with yourself. I'm like, no, this is on me. I can do better. Yeah.

And then when did that, from that disappointment, when did your training turn the corner? Then it was just a really slow learning process of many years of. of signing up for races, trying to learn how to race better, what gear I liked, how to even, you know, eat while you're running and keep it in. And I think it was like a conscious effort to train more on the terrain I wanted to race on. So instead of just running the, you know, six-mile loop in my neighborhood, I was making. I was making a dedicated effort to go get on trails and learn how to run trails better because it didn't come supernaturally. I fell a lot.

I still fall a lot. Yeah. I don't know. I seem pretty good now. I mean, it just takes like if you want to get into trail running, it's different than road running. You've got to pick up your feet more. you know, like pay attention a little bit and move with the terrain. And that took me some years to even get comfortable on that.

So like spending the time to get to those trails was part of it. Did you, was there people you were following that you looked up to? Like was there women ultra runners who you would follow and want to aspire to be like? I didn't really have social media to follow anyone, but I like would get the ultra running magazine or, you know, and read about these races like hard rock and see the pictures. The race reports. Yeah.

Yeah. See women crushing these routes that I was like, it was blowing my mind that they could do it. And wondering, could I be a person that could finish that someday was for sure a seed that got planted. And then you just kind of on your own just started more time in the mounds, more running. How do you push hard enough? by yourself in training. Because to push, like you said, in a race where it's like every, especially later, every stride is an effort, like a conscious decision, I got to push, push.

Do you train like that sometimes? Or do you, are you intentional about your training to push on certain days? Or how does that look? I won't push like that often in training. Maybe if I'm doing like a really big run. then it'll get into that zone of like it's taking all of my concentration to finish this loop that I started this morning. Yeah. But otherwise, like, I don't know.

Like your brain gets tired and I don't know that I need to like always travel into the pain cave and and do that during training. Right. Like saving that sort of pain for racing feels like. that makes it special. Yeah. No, I agree. It's just, it's hard to simulate race pace. You know, like, you know, on the track, it's pretty easy with splits and different things like that.

So you know if you're getting the marks you need to prepare for the race you need. But over the course of 100, 200, however many miles, knowing what that pace will feel like, that's tough to simulate. So I just, I was curious about when you, when you push and how you get your body prepared for those, for what you can ask of it during a race. And I guess it's just a long, maybe like the run we did, I mean, I had to push at the end. I don't know. How'd that feel? Were you pushing pretty good towards the end?

Is that going to help a race, do you think? Yeah, I think that'll help. Everything can help. Yeah, more miles. I mean, you're throwing down. in the middle. I could barely keep up. No, you did keep up though.

So it's like you say you could barely keep up, but I was like, geez. Yeah, suppose, I think I had fallen into the trap of like you saying you're not fast or something. It's like, man, you were running some fast miles. I put you on your heels.

I don't know. Did something. I'm still hurting. But man, we, It's such a great day. Yeah, so what's like, we talked about you're going to win all three of those races. Remember? Where were we on board that?

What, I mean, where do you see running going? You're just enjoying it. And then I know you enjoy seeing new country, getting new experiences. Is that just happy doing that? I mean, any big goals, like career-wise? Yeah, you kind of said them. And, like, making sure that it stays enjoyable. So if it ever gets to the point where I'm hating it and dreading, heading out the door for, you know, multiple days in a row,

then it would be stepping back and seeing, like, re-evaluate. Yeah. What's going on? because running should be fun. You know, this is fun. This is a thing that we get to choose to do with our time and our bodies. And so I want to keep it in that zone of like, this is a enjoyable pastime that I've chosen.

And I'm choosing to sign up for these races and choosing to feel that suffering and that pain cave feeling. but you know that was my decision to do it and so I wanted to always feel like that yeah I feel like you know there are days well for me I can't speak for you where it's like it's just kind of what I do I got to get out and get some miles in but then some parts of me are like I shouldn't take this for granted we're so lucky to be able to run mountains yeah I mean how it's not everybody who can just lace up their shoes and go out for a long run in the mountains. And it's like to take that for granted, I feel guilty.

When I think about it like that, sometimes we all get wrapped up on our own issues. But when I think about it, you know, and I'm being objective, I'm like, man, I really can't complain. Even on a bad day, it's still we're pretty damn lucky to be able to do this. Yeah, really lucky. And maybe on those days, because I'll have them too, you know, where it just feels like drag your feet a little longer to get the shoes on and get out the door. Maybe on days like that, I'll, you know, take a route I don't usually or stop and admire the views or, you know, they put those benches on trails usually. Yeah.

So testing out every bench you go by. Like, why did they put the bench right here? Let's test it out and see. You know, just like appreciating the small things. of the thing you do every single day, like noticing the little stuff again. Yeah, that's a good exercise, I think. Yeah, I mean, I just know how lucky we are to be able to do it. I was curious, what do you look forward to most if maybe you can't even rank it, but races or adventures? Do you know what I'm saying? The difference between the two? Because we've had some fun adventures.

Do you like those or do you like towing the line and competing? What's your preference? Both. Like both for different reasons probably. Yeah. All of it. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. What do you prefer? Well, since I can't run fast anymore, I guess I'll go with adventure. Yeah. I don't know. It's, I like, it seems like an adventure. you can share with somebody at a different level, then yeah, you have a connection when you're racing. And there is a special bond, but it's like you're not a team. You know, if they're hurting,

you're usually not waiting for them and vice versa. Whereas an adventure, it's like you're a team together and you're sharing, you're seeing this together. And I'll remember this experience, that was like something you'll share. So to me, it's a little bit different. I think for a, you know, personal development or relationship. The adventures are fun. And for more like just my own, a race is fun. You know, I get my own reward because I can see how I compared to previous times. And it's not really about too many other people there.

Yeah. So it's just, I guess, different. Yeah. I like them both. Like, I mean, your answer was perfect. But, yeah, I just, I really look forward to, like, the days we had. and, you know, the 14ers and the Grand Canyon. It's like all that stuff.

I remember the races, but I remember, like, those adventures, maybe a little clearer. Yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah. Absolutely. And even in races, some of my clearest memories and best memories of them are the moments shared.

So it'll be with a pacer or someone else in the race. race, you know, those interactions that you get to have with another person while you're doing that same activity. Yeah. Like your backyard ultras, those got to be like, because you're kind of a team with those people. Yeah. All teams forward in the backyard ultras. Yeah.

And then, because you need to get those big miles like you want, you have to have a dance partner for that. You can't do it on your own. So I know you've, you know, what have you got 283? Is that? Yes. Yeah. So I know your goal has been to get 300, or over 300, but that takes a special few days for you

and another person's few days, you know, it has to, they have to link up. But, yeah, I've never done one of those. That seem hard. I think you would love it. You'd be really good, too. I would really like to do a backyard race with you. Yeah? Yeah.

Well. Because you're like, I mean, yeah. Because you do need more people. You know, you need the mass to push. To keep getting through. And it is a race, but nothing about it is winning. Right. So some people who listen, they might not know, but that backyard ultra, like Biggs backyard,

it's about a four mile loop and you have to line up every hour to get it done. Every hour. And that's what you do for that hour. and if you finish early from your four mile loop, you wait until the next hour and then go again. So it's essentially 96 miles a day? It adds up to 100 because it's like four point something, something. So it's an even hundred every 24 hours. And you start with a field of however many people in the race.

And it goes until only one person is left. So you might exit the race because you can't finish the lap in the one hour time limit or because you just refuse to keep lining up and doing it again. But when it gets down to two people, then when that second person drops out, the race is over after the last person does their final lap. So they can't just keep going individually. It's not a individual sport at all. That's why it's a dance partner.

Yeah, exactly. You've got to have somebody willing to grind it out for a while. Which makes it so cool because to have days like that together cheering each other on actually, you know? Like if you wanted to win a race, you would hope everyone would stop after 10 miles and you could win. Yeah. But it's not about that. It's about seeing how far you can help each other go. And so, you know, you're out doing this loop and maybe someone's sort of.

struggling, you're trying, like, give them your good energy and, like, come on, man, we can do this. And same thing back to you. When you're struggling, people will be cheering you on. Like, stay in it, give it time. Keep coming with us. Do you think, just you saying that made me think there are people who line up for those races wanting to win. Do you think that people have more success cheering for each other than being just like, I'm, I'm here to win. I want all these people to fail so I win. Do you think like that positive and helping each other is how you go further?

I think so personally, but it's also how I operate. Right. And so I think someone else might be motivated and driven by. I want to bury her. Yeah. And I'll stay in as long as that takes to do that. And if that works for them to keep them in, then that's great too. Have you noticed any like psychology people trying to like get you to quit?

Like it's not even like hey you should quit but there's like little things you can say, you know, that I don't know. I mean there's all sorts of tricks. People do mental tricks. Do people do that and those? I feel like maybe five years ago, before I had done one of these backyard rates, I had heard stories of the tricks, the mental games people played with each other out there. But I think in the past few years, people have started to realize the benefit of not doing that because we want to get farther. Yeah. And it seems like that's how you'd go further.

Yeah. It seems like that negative energy is not only going to, you're trying to put it on somebody else to get them to quit. It's still affecting you. Yeah. It feels like that's why it's. I was kind of curious about it's just weird how you think how a brain works. So if you're thinking negatively, it's going to impact your performance. It feels like just that, just the energy.

Yeah. I don't know. That's why I was trying to figure out a way to say it and wonder if it made sense. But yeah. So I think the key, to me, that feels like one of the biggest reasons you've had so much success is you're always positive. So, I mean, it has to translate into performance. Enjoying it for sure helps for me. Like, I love doing what I'm doing right now and seeing what's possible.

And if I wasn't, I don't think I'd be able to, you know, dedicate the time and the training and then make it hurt as bad in a race. and suffer, suffer with reward in mind, I guess a little bit. Or suffering with purpose. How about that? Yeah. Yeah, that seems like what it is. Who's your biggest rival? Who would you talk smack to?

So it's like, like, you know how, you know Michael Jordan, right? Who? Yeah. So him and Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, there could only be one. So it's like that there had to be somebody who was, we already know Michael Jordan's the best. But who's like trying to knock you off? Why could there only be one? Is there multiple winners of Western states that I know about?

I mean, do you guys tie? I haven't heard of a tie. I'm just messing around. I know you would, you would never give an answer on arrival. I was just, just playing around. I wouldn't expect one. But so what do you think, like people always say, I mean, it sounds good to be an ultra runner.

It does. From the outside end, it's like, God, that looks awesome. And then people try it, and they're like, holy shit, this is hard. What do you say to people, like, aspiring ultra runners? Because I get people all the time that's like, I don't know, how you do this, I can't run, you know, if I run a mile, I'm shin splints and all this shit, right? So to me, and I want to hear what you say, starting is way harder than once you've been going and doing even the hardest races.

It's at the early days of running. I mean, do you think, I've never heard as much. I think Taylor said this when we were talking, but he heard more like when he first was trying to run five or ten miles when you first started than any ultra. Yeah. You know, it's just getting your body used to the process. So what advice would you give to somebody who wants to be a runner? That it's that.

It's hard at first, but it's tiny, consistent, you know, blocks that you're adding or grains of sand even on the pile. Like you're just putting one more grain on there, one more tiny block each. day, but that consistency is the huge thing. So if you want to run five miles eventually, you shouldn't start by running five miles. Yeah. You should start by running, you know, around the block. And then around a couple blocks, like go tiny, but be consistent. I think that's it. I've never heard that analogy about like a grain of sand at a time because people do want, they want these big gains. I mean, even Taylor St. He only adds 10 miles a year.

But if you think it in perspective of a grain of sand building on that block, now that's a small increment, but that is what it takes. Yeah. And then you look back and suddenly you got a pile there. Yeah. You know, they add up for sure. It's just you don't see the gain every day. Yeah.

Like it wouldn't be like yesterday I couldn't hit 10 yards. I hit a ladder instead of a target. Yeah, it's a kill shot though. That ladder didn't go anywhere. It wouldn't be so quick. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

No, I know. It's just, I think it seems, it's discouraging to people because they see, and everybody, you know, I hear it too, but smiling, running, having a great time. They go out and they're like, oh, my God, this fucking sucks. Well, how does this guy smile? So I think everybody needs to realize that, yeah, it's, it is hard sometimes. But that's okay. Yeah. That's okay.

It's okay if it's hard. But, you know, it's that feeling once you get done and just knowing that you got that, you're moving in the right direction. It's a positive, it's moving in a positive direction, I think is the key. And it doesn't happen overnight for sure. Yeah. And sometimes it's putting in, you know, that huge burst of energy to just put your shoes on because those sitting there at the door can be the hardest part.

Yeah. And then if you can just getting out there. Yeah. Put in a bunch of energy. Get the shoes on. Walk out the door and start, you know, just walking away from your house. Then it gets a little bit easier. Yeah.

Because I think people also struggle with like they had a running buddy. They quit. So then they didn't have them. So it's like that self-discipline is like, you don't need anybody. you can get out the door just by yourself. Is that, I mean, have you always had that inner drive? Or has that been, is it easier with a partner? Or do you like it better just being on your own?

I like a mix. I do most of my running alone. And I remember in middle school and high school, I would just go out for runs by myself in the mornings or, you know, if we didn't have practice or something. So that's always been there. And was that just because it felt good or did you, you wanted to get an edge over, because it was a competition thing, like you were doing a sport and you wanted to get an edge?

I think it felt good and, yeah, I wanted to get better. That's fine. Yeah, I just wanted to make sure you still wanted to win. It's not about just having a good time. No. It's like that that competitive spirit is definitely what sets you apart. I mean, I was just, I'm just, I was just interested when that started because some people do just go out and it's not a competition at all. And that's fine.

They're just, they're just trying to do something healthy. And that's great. But it's like that having that drive, it's like there's something about drive that is really hard to quantify why somebody pushes. You know, because you can always say, well, I ran, you know, had a good week. Yes. Last week and had a good day yesterday. I deserve a break. Deserve a day off.

And there are some people who would be like, no, more. Got to do more. But, yeah, we talked about that. Where is that line? Yeah. Yeah. Man. I'm going to look at some of these questions here real quick.

I could sit here and quiz you on running all day. But there's some good ones in here. Oh, what race, adventure, or training run has been your favorite? Oh, this is from the girl who we smash runner. So she took a picture with us yesterday. Oh, yeah. That kind of group coming down. Yeah, her name's Ashley.

So what has been your favorite? That's impossible to rank. I would never. Because you'd be disrespecting. Yeah. something or someone or some adventure yeah that's a good point they're all tied right everybody wins yeah i like that um this is from this guy used to live here he really ramped it up his name's erin now he lives in salt lake love this guy i just recognize these names oh and even

emma just commented let's see what she says emma's one of our favorites oh just clapping hands. Okay, so Aaron says, how can we inspire more young women to get out on the trails? My nieces come alive outside. So that's so cool. Yeah. I think doing, yeah, getting them outside, doing what you're doing and then the web grows. So they fall in love with it. You know, they're dragging their friends out and hopefully we can keep getting more people to experience the trails. I would love that and I would love, you know, more people in general trying alter running or just trying the trails and getting out in nature.

But more women would be sweet. Our start lines are never 50-50. There's always way fewer women. Yeah. Why do you think that is? I don't know, but I think it doesn't even matter, you know, like if, if, if, If we can just then move forward with it and like, you know, grab a chain of friends and bring them into it, then those numbers will come up.

Yeah. I mean, do you, do you ever feel pressure of being a role model? Because you are, obviously. People look up to you and they're greatly inspired by you. Is there ever any pressure with that or do you enjoy it? I, um, I don't know. I, if, if I can be a part of getting more people to try something hard or to get out in the mountains or to explore their local park with their feet, then I think that's pretty cool. And just trying to like do that as well as I can.

Yeah, I know I've, I've always worried about me personally because I'm going to end up. up fucking up and like you look up to me you were going to be disappointed because i'm going to screw something up and it's going to be like i can't believe you said this and you were this guy and then you did this and i'd been like i could have told you that was going to happen so i was like sometimes i'm like kind of torn on it feels good that people say you inspire me that feels good but then also for me personally i know i'm human i know all my flaws and i'm just like god it's like I don't want to let people down. I don't know.

I was just curious if you ever felt like that. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I don't know. It's okay. You don't have to know. This is a good one.

Oh, this is Dale Brisby. I was curious about this too. So we make fun of your diet all the time, candy and nachos and beer. Wait, who's we? The world. Like the entire, universe and the galaxy um but yeah so since you started like say 2012 i mean has your has your body

changed with the training is has you know the mounds will do something you know you say you were running maybe six miles in the neighborhood and now you're running mounds with all this gain how is your body responded is a composition changed are you leaner how you leaner how How have you had to fuel for what you're asking of it now? How has that changed? Yeah, it's definitely changed. It's just gotten more efficient at moving on the terrain. I'm asking it to move on.

So for sure, there's been changes. I'm not, I don't weigh myself. Like, I wear clothing that fits no matter if I just ate a giant burrito or not. So it's not like in my face. as much as it could be. Right. But for sure, like, putting in way more miles. When I started, I mean, if I was doing six miles every weekday

and maybe up to 13 on the weekends, my mileage then versus what I'm doing now is completely different and, like, just the strength work and stuff, probably eating way more now though. Yeah, a lot of calories. I mean, you're asking so much of yourself. Yeah. But food for me was never a thing I wanted to tinker with.

And like I want to eat the things I enjoy and have that be a part of my life that just makes me happy. And not thinking about food makes me the happiest and just eating. So that's never been. a thing. Like I was never like, oh, I'm running way more. Now I need this much more of anything. It was like, I'm hungry, so I'm going to eat. And instead of like half the plate of nachos, suddenly, you know, I want the whole plate. Like Kevin, get your own dish. Right. Right. No, I get that. I mean, I was, when you were saying that about like you wear baggy clothes that don't, I can't remember how you worded it. But do you think that that's a tactic? Because I'm, I like, you know how people they'll

eat and they feel fat. But it's because probably their clothes are like making them like, you know, I need, I need my fat pants on or my sweatpants, you know, like if I wear my jeans after a big plate of nachos, it's like, oh my God, I'm a fat fucker. But I wonder if like your strategy of your big baggy stuff, maybe it does kind of alleviate the press. pressure of worrying about food. I wonder if that does. Do you think it does? Maybe.

I don't know. I mean, it is nice to never feel like my waistbands are always elastic. There's always some give. So it's nice to not ever feel that discomfort. Yeah, that's true. But it was definitely not like the origin. I know. I was trying to put psychology to everything.

It's like so stupid. But yeah, Mike, I just need to wear sweats more. I think that's the lesson. I think everyone should. Yeah. Why do we still wear real pants? Yeah. I mean, normally, I like just sweats and a hoodie with no t-shirt and I'm good to go.

What do you think about for 12 hours while you're running? Is it strategic or does your mind wander? Both, all of it. It's like some moments being really in the run. and thinking about the run and the motions I'm doing. Some moments trying to get away from the run and thinking about life or family or memories. And then sometimes food and lyrics to songs.

And then sometimes, which I really enjoy the moments when the radio can just turn off. You know, to make your brain be silent, I can't do it all the time. I like the footfalls like on the trail and like where you're just, it's just that. Yeah. Is that what you're saying? Yeah.

But that's rare to capture. Exactly. But when you can, yeah, if you feel the wind. I notice even like when you're running, if you, if there's a wind on you, you're like automatically holding your arms out. To me, it just feels like pretty carefree and just, you know, just the freedom of enjoying the mountains. Yeah. It's like if you could have that all the time. Yeah.

That's the magic. I did, that did remind me of something I want to ask. Have you had a time like in a race where you're like, I'm in the zone and it just felt so good. And you felt like undeniable in that moment as a runner. Like do you have times in races where you've, everything was clicking? Yeah. And sometimes those times last for five minutes and sometimes five miles. And sometimes you might get a 50 mile spell of that.

Yeah. And that's part of the roller coaster of these really long events is that when those good moments are there, it's appreciating them. It's magic. Yeah, and not getting ahead of yourself. Right. Because, you know, from the outside in, when I think I was following along, at UTMB. Have you won that once or twice?

Two times. Two times. I think it was the first time. And I think you said you were really struggling towards the end. But it's like watching, I was envisioning my head, she must be in a zone because you were running so good. And I think you had a lead on the girl, but it was a pretty good lead. And then you were coming into town.

And it looked like you looked so happy. but I think you told me later you were dying hurting dying yeah and it's just like so I thought well I would have thought that that was like the zone she's like in that you know that magic is happening but internally no you were just like every step was hard right every step was impossible and even at the very end I was giving high fives and I thought they would knock me over I had zero energy to give anymore and I was just trying to cross the line. But seeing that scene at that race, it's unreal, you know, with that big crowd and coming down into town and you're just like, it's like celebrated like Princess Diana.

You know, I mean, it's like this huge crowd and everybody's looking at you and you're doing this thing. It's just like, it seems incredible. It's insane. Yeah. Like no other races like that. It's thousands of people in the race and then thousands of people coming to this tiny little town to cheer runners in. And there's a few other towns along the course where people will go and it's, you know, insane party and you go through like a band playing, you know. Yeah.

And then you head out into the woods and the mountains and it's totally silent again. So it's like all the pieces combined into one race. Why do you think they're so good over there Europe? I mean, why are those events like that? And are the runners better than here? Have they been doing it longer in the mounds? It's been more of a thing, a sport, or what? I think so.

I mean, I don't know all the facts, but I think that they also have grown up where it's just normal to go in the mountains. Like as a kid, you know, you go out hiking on these trails. And so it starts really early on. And then you grow up where the sport is more well known. And, you know, the races, they have something like UTMV, which is like a huge spectator sport.

They have that to look at and, you know, learn about the sport from and get into them maybe earlier. Right. Yeah. So it's just more time on the field, basically, just like anything. I mean, it seems incredible over there. But then you also told me about you did another one. I think it was shorter.

And didn't you, I mean, so fast, though. Wasn't, didn't you do a short one over there that was fast and a lot of climbing? What race was that? Oh, Zerma. Yeah. Zagama. Is that, okay. Yeah.

That one, didn't you say it's like they were sprinting? Yeah. Zygama is a marathon in Spain, and the people line the course there. So they like hike out in the early morning. It's a whole day event to go spectate this one climb on the course. And you go up this climb and it's like eight people deep on each side, just roaring in your ears. Like after I left that climb and kept going.

And you're climbing through the people, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And after you get out into the silence again, I was like, I don't know if my ear drums popped. Really? Yeah. Can I still hear?

Jeez. It was so crazy. But that's just like built into it. So there's like tiny kids who, you know, that's their day. They walked out there with their family. They brought a picnic lunch and they're spending the day cheering at this climb. People in their 70s and 80s going out there. Like it's the lifestyle.

to just be in the mountains. Yeah, that's pretty special. Yeah. And that was Spain? Yep. Yeah. So when you travel and you go to all these races, that's still in other parts that I'm like,

I just wonder about your mental approach. So now you kind of have a target on you. Everybody knows Courtney DeWalter, right? Everyone. Every woman knows there she is. How do you, how do you deal? with that. Well, I mean, you know that happens.

I don't think of it as a target. No, well, okay. I mean, everybody knows you're there. Everybody knows how good you are. I mean, just like, because if you think about like why you love running, does that make it hard? Is it hard? I mean, is it, do you love being the one?

People are like, okay, we'll see if I got what it takes. I don't think I love it, but I don't mind it. Okay. Because I could just love running and do adventures, but I'm choosing to sign up for these races as part of the way I want to push myself and get better. So it's a necessary evil essential. I mean, I don't know about evil, but as part of it. Yeah, and I want to know, like, I never know going into a race how I'll do at it.

Like, of course. You never know how anyone else is feeling or, you know, how your day is going to unfold or if your training was good enough or, you know, like, I don't ever know that. So I want to give it my best at a race. And I'm never thinking like I'm the one to beat. I'm thinking I want to see what I can do on this course. And, you know, then whatever happens happens. So do you like, do you? I'm assuming you rank your own performance above anything else,

but do you like when, say, the field's stacked? I mean, do you get, are you more excited for a race that you know that, okay, all the best in the world are going to be here? Or is that pressure? No, I love a stacked field. Do you? Yeah. I think everyone then can raise up.

Mm-hmm. Um, but also if my, like, uh, motivation to push down the gas pedal is unrelated to where anyone is around me, I don't mind then if no one is in the race. Yeah. Like I feel like I can still push pretty hard. It, it seems like it's like different, there's different aspects that are motivating or you're considering at different times, you know, yeah, I like a stacked field, but no, they're not going to affect my race.

I'm still going to give my best. Yeah, I like the crowds. No, I don't like everybody saying there she is. I mean, and that's fine because, you know, we're as humans. We look at, we internalize things differently. I was just curious about, to me, you seem like the ultimate competitor. So that doesn't surprise me that you love the stacked field because that's why you line up. Let's see what we got.

Yeah. But then at the end of the day, it's just about. even if you got beat but you gave your best, it seems like that would be okay, would it? Yeah. If I cross a line and know that that was it for that day, I'll be satisfied and I'll, you know, do some reflecting on like what are my spots that could help me get a little bit closer

to what that person did or how, where they pushed, you know. But even after a race that goes fine, I'll still look back at those things. Okay. And do you, like, write them down or do you, like, is it official or are you just thinking about it? Just thinking about it and noticing, I guess. Like, where were the areas that I could try to add some tools to my toolbox to be better next time? Yeah. I mean, I get what you're saying.

It's like I'm wondering. Probably because you were so in the race. But when I think about that film on Tahoe and what's his name? You got to call Kyle. Kyle. Yeah. You seemed like when he caught you that time, it seemed like it sucked like it sucked. It would, it seemed like it was hard to be like, were you thinking why he gave my best and you were okay?

because it affected me to see you, you seem sad and that affected me as a viewer. I was like, God damn, that seems real. And I don't like, I don't want to see you suffer. But at that moment, it probably was hard to say, well, I did my best, right? There probably was disappointment at that time. But I guess if you're looking back and reflecting, then you're like, that's just the way it goes sometimes. Absolutely. And that is just the way it goes sometimes.

Yeah. And then after that race, there were so many things we could take away from it for the next one. Do you think was that a, there was a hard one to start off with your diet, the food wasn't staying down. Is that right? Yeah. You couldn't take calories in. Is that what happened? From the get-go, it was like this swimming upstream battle all day.

And it was the same food, the mashed potatoes, was everything the same? Yeah. But that day for whatever reason, your body just... Yeah, it wasn't having it. Does that happen? It's probably because you refused to run with me in that race. I tried. No.

So this is a whole other thing. So I take off as hot as hell. Wait, no, back it up. Before the race, I say, what do you, like, what are you doing? You know, what are you trying to do here, basically? At the race? at the start line basically. Because to get there, I had to kill in Colorado first.

Yeah. Then I would, if I killed early, three animals, I'd have a gap. And then because it'd be fun to race 200 with you. Like, I never have. You've crushed me the only other time we did it. But I'm like, well, maybe I can get down there if I have a few days. So I made it. So you made it.

Yeah. And then I asked you, how are you feeling? You know, what are you going to do? what are you aiming for? Just fishing to see. Yeah. What are you going? Are you going?

Yeah. And you're like, nah. I'm just, yeah, I'm just going to do it. Maybe stay back a little bit. Yeah. So then I didn't think you were running. Right. So then.

Otherwise, that would have been so fun. You were like a half mile behind me for however many hours. Not that long. And we could have been sharing that. But yeah, yeah. So I was trying to point is I was trying to catch up with you the whole time for hours. And it's like, was it Howie or maybe, maybe it was Howie. But he was taking photos and he was given, I'd say, where's corny.

Like sort of getting closer, not really because you were flying, it seemed like. And yeah, so anyway, it didn't work. Well, you should have played your cards earlier because then we could have been helping each other. Yeah, I know. I know. About that is, I mean, you had, that film was incredible. I can't remember. Who made that one?

Do you remember? Dreamlands. Yeah. Media. It was so good. They did a great job. They did. And then Taylor ended up, he, he has some really rough spots, but he ended up getting

third in that race, too. He's quite always back from you guys. But still third, he's got third twice at Tahoe, which is for us, well, he's way better to me, but it's pretty good. And so that was kind of cool. I was glad to see him do well there. I wanted to see you win. But the film, you know, it's just the way it goes sometimes.

Tough race. Yeah. Tough race. Yeah. Okay. I don't know how we got sidetracked on me sucking. That wasn't really the intention. Okay.

We got 12 minutes before you got to take off. If you. You could pick only one ultra race to run out of all the courses, which won. Impossible. No, one. You have to. Why would you choose one? You have to.

But there's so many good ones. No, you get one. You get one choice and then you're done running forever. No, I won't do that. You have to. It's not, you don't have a choice. It's like, I didn't say you pick one or you just pick 10. I said you pick one.

Which one is it? It's like, this is it. You can't pick one? No. Could you? Could you pick one hunt? And that's it. If I had to.

You would? Yeah, if I had to. Which one? It'd probably be Arizona Elk on the San Carlos Apache Reservation. Dang it. Dang it? No. Yeah, see, now you have to answer my question.

So one race. I say, what would I say? I say, would it be hard rock or UTMB or Western? Yes. Which one? Or could I pick like the Colorado Trail combined with the Pacific Crest Trail combined with... That reminds me. Okay.

I want to game this system. Yeah, no, I understand. So you've had... big goals. We've even talked about 500 miles before, but the Colorado Trail is 500, but I remember like a few years ago, we were trying to get Candace to make a 500 mile race.

So what is the draw to like the Colorado Trail and you have unfinished business there. We talked about maybe getting back there, but it's almost 500 miles set in the FKT. What is, what's the

draw to that? Is that just a test for yourself just to see what, if you can do it. Yeah. Is that as far as it goes? Yeah, and it's new territory. So I think it's an interesting distance to try. Like if the whole journey through ultra running has wondered what else is possible, starting from that first 50K on, then this is my next thing of like, is it possible and what does it look like to do it? Yeah. And that country's so incredible too. In Colorado's your home. So there's so many positive factors to consider there. But yeah, I loved.

Just that little section I ran with you, I think it was 65 miles. Just like epic high country Colorado. Yeah. So fun. We saw that. There's a guy going opposite direction. We saw in the middle of one night. I don't think he finished, though.

Do you remember that guy? Yeah. Did he not finish? I don't think so. Okay. I heard that somebody told me he dropped not or quit not long after we saw him that night. Okay. But he was going the opposite way.

I think he started in Denver. It was going up to where do you start? Durango. Durango, yeah. But, yeah, special trail. I do want to see you get that. Yeah. Well, I'll be calling you up if we go for it to see if you're available.

Yeah, no, I'd love to. I mean, I don't know. after four days, you were still, even in a zombie state, still climbing those hills pretty good. It's pretty impressed. That was amazing. So with that, the Colorado Trail, do you have any other crazy adventure you had been thinking out? I mean, at one time we talked about running across the United States. Yeah, I think it'd be a cool way to see the country and to experience it.

Um, that's like nowhere. That's not anytime soon. No. I think that, yeah. I mean, it's such a time commitment and the amount of wear and tear it would have on your body. Mm-hmm. There's, um, too many races all year long that I'd love to keep signing up for right now. Yeah.

Did you, what was your one race if you had to choose? Yeah. Remember that one? Has to be one. Nope. I picked my hunt. I know. I thought that was going to like, make you. Distraction.

Yeah. It didn't work. No. I mean, I say Western, the history of Western is pretty special. So many great runners there. So much history in times. And, you know, known, is it a hot year? Is it a snow year?

All that factors in. That's pretty cool. And they have, I think everybody's doing it or getting better, but that live tracking, you get addicted. What was that? You get addicted to that. So Western has done a good job of that. UTMB, just because it's such a, I don't know, atmosphere crazy. But then what's the big draw to hard rock for you?

Hard Rock's just pure mountains. You know, it's this chill, small race, but really long history of it being around and goes into some incredible terrain in the San Juan Mountains. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm going to win them all this year. How about that? I got to jot it down. Okay.

Well, I mean, Courtney, thank you so much again. I had the best three days ever, lift, run, shoot, the 100K, capping it off with 101-yard balloon pop. It's like, this has been, I couldn't, I couldn't have scripted a better visit. And I thank you so much for coming. It means so much to me. Again, you inspire me. I love your attitude and your energy. And it's, thanks for being a friend.

Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it. I'm going to hand you your bow now because that's the last part of this. So I always say I give a hoight to outliers and you are an outlier. And there's the bow that did it at 101 yards today. 101. I know. So thank you.

I appreciate you. Thank you. All right. I'm always putting constant stress on my body, which is why I decided to try mudwater. And it has been a game changer in regard to mental. focus. The blend of adaptogenic mushrooms, cortisps, and lions mane all support focus, physical performance, and are great for the immune system. Now, these aren't the hallucinogenic type of mushrooms, but I do like that mudwater gives back to the Berkeley Center for the

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