Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 018 - Speedland

Episode Date: April 14, 2023

Journey inside the mind of shoe gurus, Kevin Fallon and Dave Dombrow, on their quest to create the world’s best performing mountain trail shoe.    Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com   Connect with Speedland: https://www.runspeedland.com/ https://www.instagram.com/speedhackkevin/ https://www.instagram.com/speedhackdave/ https://www.instagram.com/runspeedland/   Thank you to our sponsors: Santa Cruz Medicinals: https://scmedicinals.com use code KeepHammering for 15% off Keytone IQ: https://hvmn.com/CAM use code CAM for 20% Black Buffalo: https://blackbuffalo.com/discount/CAM use code CAM for 15% off MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping First Light: https://www.firstlight.farm/ Use Code Cam15 for 15% off your first order Leupold: https://www.leupold.com/ Black Rifle: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv Bass Pro/Cabelas: https://www.basspro.com   Timestamps:  0:00:00 Introduction 0:01:08 Journey as shoe designers 0:05:50 Focusing on the mountain runner 0:08:00 Road running shoes vs. mountain running shoes 0:10:57 “Right” weight 0:13:48 No compromise  0:18:05 Working under Kip Fulks at UA 0:20:00 Mountain running culture 0:23:40 Gorge Waterfalls races 0:25:32 The growth of ultrarunning 0:30:00 Getting into the shoe world 0:39:17 Developing the sole 0:45:20 Not a shoe, a piece of equipment  0:47:10 Beautiful thing about running 0:48:30 Customization of running shoes 0:54:40 Boa system 0:56:00 Importance of heel fit 1:02:40 Goal for release date 1:04:20 Closing  

Mountain Ops offers the best supplements on the market and functional gear for athletes and hunters. Their battleground merino garments are some of the best I have found. I've chosen to support a company that supports the community. A portion of every sale on Mountain Ops website, www.W Mountain Ops.com, goes to help feed a family in need. Use my code keep hammering for 20% off your first purchase and also receive free shipping. I think a lot of you guys will be interested in this next sponsor. First Light Farms is a New Zealand-based farm that ships elk meat straight to your door.

The reality is not everyone's going to fill their tag every year, so First Light Farms is ready to fill your freezer with lean protein that is high in iron, zinc, and B vitamins. To tell you the truth, I've been pretty surprised at how tender the meat is from First Light Farms. And I guess it's because they have no natural predators in New Zealand, so the elk will have a pretty low-stressed life, and you can taste that in the meat. They're offering listeners of the podcast a 15% discount

using code cam 15 at stateclub.1st1.farmes. The link will be in the show notes of the podcast for those interested. Well, the Keep Hammering Collective with Kevin Fallon and Dave Dombrow. Thanks guys from Speedland. Appreciate you guys coming to Springfield, Oregon.

I almost had you. Gene, but Springfield, Oregon. Yeah, honored. It's, man, this is going to be fun because our number one thing that we're doing is talking about our partnership. And it's a big honor for me to be connected with you guys. And we're kind of releasing or showcasing the brand new Cameron Haynes shoe, your Speedland product.

And it looks amazing. But I wanted to find out what is Speedland? How are we right here right now? Tell me what's happened. You want to take that? Yeah, well, let's go back maybe to the beginning a little bit here. So I think one unique thing is Kevin and I, we've worked together for, it's been almost 20 to 23 years now. And it started way back in Nike.

That's where we met. And then at that time, we were doing basketball shoes, actually. Were you, I think, were you in the movie? Did you make the Air Jordan? We didn't make the cut. We didn't make the cut. Did see that, though. It was quite an entertaining, a good movie.

But that was, how many years ago was that? That would probably have been, what, 40 years ago now? Yeah, that was, they set that, what, in the Jordan space, so 84. Right. So close to 40 years. And you guys were 20 years after that. Exactly. Yeah.

Okay. So you didn't save the basketball market. No, no, no. It was doing quite well already when we got there. But that's where we met. And I was doing some inline design, which is kind of the, you know, kind of designing for different players.

And Kevin was on the innovation side in basketball. So that is kind of the genesis of us meeting. And then we ended up going from there to eventually Puma together. Really? Well, not together, but we ended up there together. We ended up working closely together. I was managing the design team in Germany. And Dave was managing the design team in Boston.

Oh, gotcha. We're going to make this more in the middle right here. Yeah, perfect. We learned to work well together, coordinating creative directions for the season and design reviews across the ocean. And so that was. And Puma, was that running shoes or what was that? Kind of everything. Oh, all of them.

Yeah. So anything from, yeah. football or what's soccer boots to running to more of lifestyle stuff so it kind of crossed over in every dimension actually motorsport was a big thing of all things back back then with puma so we did that and then we ended up at under armor together and that's where we were together the longest were there almost 10 years and again Kevin was again on the innovation side and I was on the inline side directing that. What does inline side mean? That's like

when you're working basically say two to three years out and if you think of like innovation working like three to five or even longer three to seven years out. I hate that part. I like the one day out. Yeah, you're very real time.

But the way it works right is innovation the way it should work is innovation feeds concepts and into inline and then inline commercializes them. Right. And so that's kind of our, you know, been our relationship in the past. And so long story short, when we decided to or when we left Under Armour, that was kind of the perfect blend for Speedland because we had a little bit different skill sets,

but we could bring those together to create, you know, what we're doing now. Right. Well. And when you were at Under Armour, is that what I was doing? the my shoes over there too like yes um designer I worked with a lot was Sean yeah right yeah yeah he was awesome I love Sean I think he's a he's a he's a Hoka now I think is he still I believe he is yeah yeah yeah yeah I don't know it's uh I think he's there officially yeah he did he did like I don't know if he did the trail shoe but I know he did the boot and uh yeah yeah yeah there are a number of people involved um another guy who's Matt Rask was

also was involved with you before, before Sean. He's a Hokka. Really? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I call it Woka. They, uh, man. They have an operation.

They have an operation in Portland. Do they? Yeah, they do. I mean, they're headquartered in, in Santa Barbara, but they, but they have a, I don't know with the full and, I don't know, maybe you're up on it more than me, but I know they have a design operation of some sort in Portland. They've made good, they've made good shoes, but, you know, the Mar-a-Rour. The marketing part is always like pretty interesting to me on these, you know, these running shoe, or not just, not just running shoes, but it's like everything nowadays.

But, yeah, I mean, I like when it's just focused on the, hey, just like cool shoes. Can we do that? Yeah, and that's where we are right now. And it's not a million miles from where Hoka started, right? Yeah. They were super niche. They had a crazy concept, right? This really thick, midsouled shoe for downhill running.

And, you know, they grew it into a billion dollar brain. end. Oh, they're killing it. They're doing really well. And I think we are following in a similar path where we want to focus on the mountain runner. We just saw an opportunity. We love the outdoors. So for us, if we're going to pour our heart and soul into something, we want it to be out in the mountains and be enjoying that. And then, you know, that athlete like you, you're out there doing some crazy things, you know, what's happening in mountain running in the distances and the terrain. We felt it was really underserved. You know, a lot of times, Trail was a second cousin to road running.

All the technology, all the R&D is going into road running. It still is with the big brands. It is. It isn't. It's just if you're a $40 billion brand like Nike, Trail is tiny. It's hardly worth the squeeze. For us, that's all we want to focus on. And we wanted to bring the best of everything we knew from our career, the best fit

system, the best materials, the best foams, best traction. And that was kind of our philosophy is let's not start with a price that we want to buy this from the factory. Let's start with how do we make the best product that we can make and bring that to the mountain runner and see if it resonates with it. Why the mountain? I mean, why are you guys more focused on that than road running? Well, one, there's a lot of great product happening on the roadside, right? There's a war happening for marathon racing shoes. Yeah.

And that's not something we wanted to step into. I think he's making great product in that space. And what we saw was that same level of obsession wasn't happening for trail. And it's different. You can't just take what works on the road and translate it to the trail because I've tried. Yeah. I try. And so did we.

Yeah. We tried everything. And, you know, those really stiff-plated shoes off-camber stuff and rocks are. dangerous. Yeah. So that's where we saw the opportunity and felt like nobody was really obsessing those details in a way that could, in a way that we could. And that's what we're going to do.

I'm always like, you know, I think it's from hunting is because when you're packing everything you need on your back, ounces matter, right? So I used to, back in the day, backcountry bone is all I did. You know, there'd be a thing like you'd have your toothbrush. You cut the handle off your toothbrush. Did you guys say this? So it's like I have that mindset. It's like the less I have to carry every step.

And I think about the even in without limits, the pre-Fontaine movie, you know, I think was it Bowerman who was talking about, you know, you take this many, your stride is six feet. Yeah. You're running this many strides per mile, this many ounces per stride, 50,000 pounds at the end of the rest, something like that. But anyway, that mindset I've always had. So I'm like, well, I'm going to run in the mountains. I don't want to carry more than I have to. So I would try to get away with the road running shoes in the mountains. And they're just not enough there.

So you end up, you're going downhill. Your toes are just slammed in the front of the shoe. Your side-hilling and your feet are rolling off the soul, basically, and that's causing issues. So then it's like, okay, I need more of a shoe. And then it's like, well, this one feels clunky, right? Or it's whatever. So in these, I mean, your speed land, this. new shoe, I mean, you just feel it, and you can go in and look at shoes all the time. I do,

I love shoes. I've been a shoe guy forever, but, and you just kind of feel it and you're like, okay, that feels pretty good, pretty light. And then it's like, is there enough to it? Yeah, the structure's there. Oh, the boa, you know, if I'm, what I do, like if I'm going downhill, and I know my feet might slide because it's steep downhill. I just tighten that up a little bit. I get back on flat, I back it off a little bit. And it's like, that's, that, You can't do that with laces. So just all those different things, I see why you guys could obsess about that. And it seems like it's, I mean, been realized, your focus has been realized with this shoe.

I mean, is that where you guys are at? Yeah. I mean, I think everything's, it's a constant process, right? We're always trying to get better. And with this shoe, we feel like we're able to, you know, dial in some things as time has gone on. And like that was that for the boa dialed? Yeah, yeah. I don't know pun intended.

Yes. But you're right. I mean, like that insight, you just said like, yeah, I'm able to adjust it real time. And a lot of our elite runners, trail runners, say the same thing. Like, especially in a race when they're, even if it's a long race, say. You don't want to stop for a second. You don't want to stop. Yeah.

And so if they can. Let alone a minute, like to do laces. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that that's a huge advantage. Let alone the fidelity of it, right? The precision increment. You just can't get that with laces the same exact way.

So we think there's a lot to it there. And your other comment about the way they're light, but we use this term recently, like we want them to be lightweight, but more importantly, we wanted to be the right weight. So right weight is something that we like to say a lot of times. Oh, okay. They're light, but they're the right weight for what you need, like you said. If they're two unstructured, that creates a problem. Yeah, I think if you chase the grams and try to make the lightest, you're compromising.

something. Yeah. Durability or stability. And so we're trying to find that balance where you get great longevity and you get the stability, but we're still competitive in the weight zone. Yeah. And I know, I mean, I'm not affiliated with, well, now with Speedland I am, but I tried all the different shoes, right? And in Hocas, we're pretty good, but I mean, they, I don't want to say disintegrate,

but that soul is light and cushiony, but you only get a few. like hard runs out of it. It feels like and you're already compromised a little bit because the structure isn't there because it is so comfortable. So it's almost like it's comfortable for like a week. And then it's like now my foot, it's just sinking in too much. So I get where it's, and then, you know, I tried some other ones. I tried craft. I tried Solomon. I tried all of them. And all of them have some, some, it's a give and take. And to find the perfect thing is difficult. And then I ran, you know, just did an ultra last weekend with these and I was like, man, those were money.

I made a couple adjustments during the run because it was up and down. It was muddy. And the performance was awesome. So, I mean, I've put a lot of miles in these shoes and I've been very impressed. You guys, it seems like you guys killed it with those. Well, thanks. Yeah. It's a process for sure.

We really put athletes at the center of everything we do. and I think you've seen a little bit of that in the time we've interacted that, you know, we want the texts from our athletes, hey, this is working, this is not working, and we make adjustments as real time as we can to tweak and constantly listen and try to make things better. But fundamentally, you know, we're choosing higher quality materials. We're charging a little higher price.

We're in a different, as a small brand, we can do things differently than the big brands. And Hoka, Solomon, they make some great products, but they're big brands and they're caught up. And we kind of call it that product cycle where sometimes you see products are being redesigned before the previous ones in the market. They don't really know what they're making better. What they're tweaking.

Maybe some wear testing along the way. And we've seen that and we just we don't want to do that. We want to make it better when better materials become available or when our athletes say, hey, I need this kind of tweak. I mean, to add on, we don't even really want to be a brand unless we can make it better. We can't make something better and have. that is our objective. Like, we don't need to just make another shoe.

Right. Like, that's not what SpeedLand's about. Yeah. So any product, honestly, we would ever come out with in the future, the idea would be, like, we're making it better than what's out there. Yeah. That's the reason, you know, this whole no compromises. Like, that's what the whole brand and athletes is what it's founded on. Yeah.

I like when I hear you guys say you listen to the athletes and listen to feedback because, I mean, I'm not, I had a great experience at Under Armour. And, but I did have some tweaks like, just like on the boot. I said, hey, I want a loop on the back of it because sometimes those boots are trying to get your foot down the boot and it's kind of tight. You want some. There's nothing to pull back there. I'm like, I just want that loop on the back. Oh, yeah, yeah. We'll get the loop on the back.

Never happened. I'm like, if I'm using it and I say I want that, why didn't happen? So it's like stuff like that for, you know, an athlete or whatever is like, yeah, if you want the feedback, take you. and let's do something with it. Yeah. And sometimes it's simply because of the layers. Yeah. A layers of people in management.

Yeah. Stuff, right? Like where with us, like, well, it's us. Two guys right now. Yeah. It's either Dave or me or both. If it doesn't happen, you just come yell at us. Yeah.

And I think that is one of the other things that we felt we could do different and better than a big company. And for the right athletes, you know, that's the people who come to us are frustrated with those kind of things. where if you have an athlete manager or there's people in between you and that product team, it's kind of silly. And I think we got frustrated with that even in the previous jobs we've had. Like, why can't the product teams get closer to the athletes?

And there's always some reason. Yeah. But it's not a good one. No. There's really, like, if you're going to engage in these relationships, like, it's got to be meaningful on both sides. And if you're going to an athlete and saying, hey, I want, you to wear our product, you should listen than what they had to say about it.

Yeah. It's, and I do, I understand, you know, with a brand like, those big brands, I think Under Armour got to $5 billion

or whatever in sales. It's not going to, you're not going to sit down with, you know, Kevin Plank and say, hey, I want this. Like I'm sitting down with you guys.

You know, I mean, so I get that. And that's part of the business. It's just like you get huge. And then, you know, I like that,

I don't know, you can't, I guess, as you said, you're trying to do the best of both worlds, you know, trying to specialize a mountain running. And with a big brand, you can't really specialize in too many things. You know, you got to kind of hit the hot spots on some of them, do the best you can.

So I get it. It's, uh, there's, there's a difference between a giant brand and a, in an upstart brand like you guys. So, you know, not trying to shit on anybody because that's just. No, nor are we. We're not either. We, it's just a difference of, you know, focus. Yeah. And when you're a big brand, the running market on the road is far, far bigger.

Yeah. So that's where they're going to focus. I get it. And for us, you know, as a small startup brand, you know, we want to serve the mountain athletes. And there's plenty of business there for a small brand like us if we do it the right way. That's what we think. And that's what to say we might not do a road shoe someday. Yeah.

But if we do a road shoe, it's for a reason. You know, it's because our mountain athletes are training on the road. Right. and they need a great road training shoe. We probably will never make a racing road shoe. Right. Because, you know, there's many other brands that are doing a great job on that. It's more authentic and core to who they are.

So that's the thing. Like, we always want to stay authentic and core to who we are to make something better. Yeah. I mean, that's good. I do want to touch, I just had Kip Folks on, and he was one of the original founders of Under Armour. And here's how he described you guys. So I don't know if you guys will.

Oh, boy. You know, Kip, he'll like to. But he said, yeah, I know. He said, he said, I'm sure, let's see, let me think how this went. He said, Kevin was a genius and Dave is just one of the best shoe designers you'll ever find. So that's what he said. There you go. Wow.

I'm not sure I'm ready to wear that, but I'll take it. This is kind. I mean, we had, we had, you know, Kip, Kip for us was an inspirational leader. I think he was one of those guys who, you know, there's no bullshit with Kip. He's going to tell you where you stand. And I think we really appreciated that. And a big company, sometimes that's rare. You know, and for him to, sometimes it's not always what you want to hear, but it's what you need to hear.

And I think that was, it was a, you know, great time when we had Kip kind of leading us at UA. We missed him when he left. That's for sure. Yeah. Place changed. Definitely changed. I mean, yeah, he's been one of my best friends. But, and I do appreciate, just as you said, he'll just tell it like it is.

And in life, you need people like that. You know, I mean, you can't sugarcoat everything. Sometimes you need to hear the hard truth. Or, you know, if you did a good job, it's nice to hear he did a good job. If you fucked up, I got to hear about it. And he'll, he's good for that. But yeah, I wanted to share that too because he's been instrumental in even our, our partnership, you know, kind of been the middleman and bringing us together.

And it's, man, to me, it's exciting because. it's weird. This business is crazy. I mean, there's Olympic athletes, Olympic runners with small followings. They should have, they're the best in the world. They should have millions of people following what they do. Running is such a weird thing where somebody like me who I'm far from an Olympian. I run every day. I love running. I love the mountains. I'm not like best in the world, but I get this opportunity with you guys. And it seems, it seems crazy sometimes because I was thinking about this earlier, like the best, you can't have like some guy who's good on the playground. I'll just say I'm like good on the playground in basketball, right? Some guy who's

good on the playground isn't going to have be competing with LeBron James with a shoe. But in running, it's just a weird, isn't that weird? It's very different. Well, I mean, I think that's one of the things we love about this space and, you know, the athletes is everyone's, it's a great community, you know, and people are accessible. You know, you can go up to one of the best ultra runners in the world and nobody's going to know who they are and they're going to likely to have a chat with you, you know, and we love that approachability. And it is interesting though. You bring it up because I was thinking about this too, because like, yeah, we're going to, we're off to, what, Coca-Dona in three weeks.

Oh, nice. One of our athletes to run in that. And it is interesting the way you said it because, like, yeah, you'll have very average, I mean, include myself in that, very average runners lining up against with, not against, against, with, whatever, very elites. Yeah. And they're in the same race. Right.

I know. They wouldn't be on the same basketball court. No. But maybe that is kind of the great part about it that everybody can participate in. Some of these races are hard to get into. to you got to get lottery tickets and everything else like Western or hard rock or any of these. But yeah, that is kind of interesting that, you know, every runner can be in the same race. It's pretty cool.

Yeah. Running is like, so how many superstar runners are there? You know, I mean, not a bunch. Not a bunch who are like, you know, because social media is kind of weird. Like I said, like, you know, that an Olympian might have 5,000 followers, you know, and they should, they deserve more of a, to make more of an impact. There's a few, you know, there's a Emma Coburn. She's got a big following.

She deserves it three-time Olympian. Very marketable, blonde hair, just fit, badass. But there's only a few runners who fit in that. And it's just... Yeah, I went and trail running, even fewer. Right. Even fewer, right? When you think of, like, I don't know if household name is the right thing, but like... We've got Killian.

Killing and Quentin. Wombsley. Womsley. And then you got Courtney, obviously. you recently had on. And I mean, outside of that, I mean, it's household names are pretty hard to, you know, I know. I know.

I think that the, I think that's a cool part of it also is that so people, they can see these shoes. They can line up with the people. They can be wearing the same stuff, have that connection with them, listen to them. Because I know people like, say with Courtney in the trail running and probably Jim, but in the same. respect, but they really feel like they know Courtney. You know what I mean? Because they watch everything she does. They listen to everything she says. She's so likable. And of course, that's going to,

you know, Solomon has done a good job with her, making her long shorts, making the films with her. And it's like, it's cool to see. I mean, I'm, I'm happy to see Solomon supporting somebody like Courtney and her doing the same with that brand and elevating it. Because as you guys know, when everybody gets elevated everyone wins or if a brand gets elevated then every else else wins and so it's cool to see i mean she's had a film i think solomon helped produce or was or funded that has over two million views um her tahoe 200 race and that's how cool is that that many people to be exposed to trail running it's awesome yeah we want to be a part of that raising up this sport and the amazing things that are happening in the sport

and the athletes within it. I mean, it's a great place to be. How, well, and you guys just did that with that race recently up at the gorge. I mean, Speedline was a big part of that. And I think, because Dylan's a race director of that. And his shoe is the shoe I have on, right? Yeah, his company is what, yeah, he's like co-rague. He and Daybreak own it together.

Yeah. Through Free Trail and Daybreak, I believe. So that was our end to be a big part of that race. and we're going to jump at every opportunity that we can that we can afford to at this stage when it comes to supporting these events. And it's our backyard, and it's a great Pacific Northwest event.

I think Dylan said it's now the biggest West Coast ultra. Really? One or two, but on the coast. Yeah, it's near the top. So, you know, it's great. It's an early season race. It gets really high-level talent. And, you know, the conditions are classic Northwest.

Rough. It looked tough. It was a tough weekend. We got a lot of rain, and I think on paper it doesn't look like crazy technical. It's not a ton of vert compared to some other races, but now when it's wet, it's pretty rocky. It's brutal. I saw some creek crossing. I saw the clips of it, you know, under the waterfalls crossing the creeks.

Those guys were flying. I mean, I think it paid for the winners, too. I mean, there's some prize money up, so that always brings the competition level out. Yep. The early season, having good money, good competition means, you know, it brings them out. So it was a great event. It seemed like a big, big success. Oh, yeah.

I was happy to see it. Yeah. Yeah, I think they sold out really quickly. They added 30K, so they're getting into some of the sub ultra distances too, which are becoming increasingly popular. So that's, you know, a great gateway into the longer races. So the 30K Friday, 100K, Saturday, 50K Sunday, it was a great weekend. It seems like the perfect timing for you guys to come into this, to specialize in this,

because the ultra-running world seems like it's exploding, you know, the interest in it. You know, these races sell out, even 100-mile races. It's sometimes it's hard to get, find a hundred-mile or to run. And, you know, 10 years ago, you could always get in a hundred, other than Western. You know, you could get into almost any other hundred. And now, like, I did that one in Montana last year, first year, the Crazy Mountain. And it sold out in like a couple hours, I think, this year. Right.

I mean, so it's a perfect time. Because people are, they're wanting to challenge themselves. To challenge yourself, you need good gear. Yeah. Or are you going to fail? Well, and I think they're making them really accessible. We're having this conversation the other day with, we have an athlete summit with some of our athletes up there.

And having this conversation, and some of these groups like this Ara Vipa, we're sponsoring, who puts on Coca-Dona and we're sponsoring that. Is that Jamil? Yeah, exactly. And the events. Super nice guy. Super nice.

And the events are just super accessible, and the distances are super accessible, depending on how you want to play it. So you can get kind of every type of runner. So it's kind of great, like what's happened on the roadside in the past with these distances, obviously, going from like 10K to half marathon to marathons. You know, and you see all this now with this participation in half marathons growing at such a rap thing. Same kind of thing with trail.

I mean, you see these kind of, say, what did I run in? Cold water, around like a 20-mile distance, right? A cold water. Cold water in Arizona. It's like, what a great introductory distance, you know, for a, for kind of a, it's not, it's not like an ultra, but it's still a longer race. Yeah. And you can get somebody who's, it's not maybe off the couch, but it's like somebody

who's been running and it's like, I'm going to go dip my toe in and run a 20-mile race down in Arizona, you know? And so this group of IPA, I mean, they have a ton of these things going on. So, I mean, it's speaks to way. what you're saying, that it's like, it's really inclusive and it's really growing. And, you know, you get somebody that does a 20 and then they jump to a 50k and then they jump to a 50 mile. And then all of a sudden, they're, okay, I'm going to challenge myself with a 100 mile. Yeah. And it doesn't seem so crazy anymore. No. And then, you know, you get people who

are going to go do 250 and, and, you know, is there going to be a 500 Sunday? Of course there is. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. And Cortone will be the first one to sign up for it. I was thinking about that, too. Yeah. Oh, I know. She's amazing. But here's, Another thing that I with the trail running community, the ultra community. So here's a difference. Like in, I go to a lot of the big track meets here in town. You know, we get the trials and we get the world championships. There's nobody running those races smiling and high-fiving.

You know, Courtney will be smiling during a race having, like having a good time saying thank you to the aid stations. And thanks for, it's like that's a huge difference between ultra world and track world. You know, track work, it's a job. of business. I mean, and there's, you don't have time. You're in, you know, the steeplechase, you can't be smiling and having a good time out there. You're grinding. And it's like, to me, the ultra running world is like, and she's winning. So imagine all the people in the back that are actually have time to, to make a post about it. You know what I mean? Share their experience. And it's like, so that accessibility is, or just sharing in the experience.

is unique. Yeah. And that's what, to me, that's what makes it apart or makes it stand apart. And then also you're in the mounds, which are the setting is much different than the track. I agree. And that's what I was talking a little bit about earlier, between these locations, which all of them have unique cultures to them. Yeah.

You go to the rut or you go to Western. They have a, you know, a unique thing going on there. And people, you know, they have a bucket list of these races they want to do based on that. And that with, along with the different groups that direct these races, bring their own kind of personality like people love ara viper because they know what to expect and they run a good operation and so between those things there's just these this really neat culture and the accessibility of the people that that are at the top of the game is refreshing hoit archery has been my bow hunting sponsor since 2005 and personally i really don't care what bow you shoot what brand it is i just hope

that you have the same level of confidence in your equipment as i have in mind because I know if I get one opportunity with my Hoyt, it's going to pay off. Black Rifle Coffee Company is a company that's very easy for me to promote because I drink coffee all day, every day. But more importantly, they are a huge supporter of the veteran community and are a veteran-known business, so they have my full support. Use code keep hammering for 20% off your first order and 20% off subscription to the coffee club,

where you get exclusive coffee blends and merchandise. How did you guys get into the shoe business part? I mean, I heard we talked about your history, but were you always, like, when you're young, shoes? I mean, I don't know, because that's how I, you know, my dad was an athlete. For him, it was always like, he was always wearing Adidas. It's like he went to school, like kind of when pre went to Oregon,

he went to Oregon. And it was Adidas was a big thing, but it's always like running shoe stores and always going, is that how you guys were? Did you grow up like that? I, yes. Well, so no, in my case, I was definitely a shoe fanatic from when I was very young. I mean, to the point, yeah, like my parents said I used to like sleep with my shoes. Yeah, that's weird.

That's what they said. So, yeah, a little too much information. But I did. And I was a basketball head growing up. So I used to play basketball. And so I was into basketball shoes. What shoes did you sleep with? Which ones were, what were they talking?

Like, what, any new shoe or? No, no. So that was back like when, uh, this case, it was like a Bo Jackson trainer. Oh, okay. Like back in the day. So it was Nike. Yeah. Yeah.

So those were some of the early, early, early ones. And, um, so that shows my age a little bit, I guess. Well, I had the Reebok where you pumped them up. Remember those? Yeah, yeah. Those are pretty sick. Yeah. Remember the slam dot competition covering that covering that, covering the eyes?

Right. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, so I was that. And so for me, we at different times attended the same design school. And so I was kind of going down two paths. One was kind of more love of sports and the other was love of cars and anything automotive. Okay. And so didn't know which direction I was going to go. And I ended up doing an internship at Solomon. And at that time, they had an office in Boulder, Colorado. I don't believe they have that anymore, but they had that there. And so I thought I was going to go there, honestly, and do stuff related to skiing and snowboarding, design stuff. Right. But they put me on trail running stuff. So they had this series called the Raid series way back in the day, kind of these really cool trail shoes. And so I worked on that stuff out of that office.

And that kind of got, then I went back to school, but that got the bug going. So when I left school, I kind of had these two paths and I went right straight to Nike. Okay. Yeah, Nike recruited me out of school. And I went straight to do basketball shoes because I was still basketball head. What time was that? Like what Jordan were they on at that time? They were pretty far.

So that was when I went to Nike, that was the spring of 2000. So we were doing what was cool about that time period. They were all about innovation and doing crazy stuff. So it was more about at that point. the technology and the innovations than it was about the player so much. Now, they had players and they were talking about players, don't get me wrong, but it was more about so they had like, that's what it shocks was coming out. If you remember, Sharks, Vince Carter was dunking over people.

I had those, yeah. So that was that time period. And it was just fun from a design and innovation standpoint. So that's kind of how I was always kind of into shoes. and that was kind of the perfect marriage of being able to blend shoes with sports and so Nike was kind of my intro to that. Gotcha.

But really Solomon was. Solomon's what got the whole thing rolling. So I guess I definitely owe him something. My problem was a little different. Yeah, I wasn't really a shoe guy, a kid growing up. I was really into cars and planes. I got my pilot's license in high school and I was doing everything I could to get close to cars and wrenching on cars. My dad was not a mechanically capable guy, so I was seeking out friends' dads or internships and things

and managed to get close to some Porsche race cars at a shop in Florida and doing an internship in college over in Germany. So I did a mechanical aerospace engineering degree first, still thinking I was going to go that way. I thought that's kind of how you got into cars or planes or boats or anything that went fast. And I went to a college, I went to Brown that shared a campus with the Rhode Island School of Design. So I kind of got introduced to this world of design that for whatever reason, I guess I wasn't really tuned into in high school. I didn't kind of know that that was a career path. I thought engineering was how you got into that stuff. So I kind of struggled through engineering, got through it, but really found the love for design and made a decision.

to go back to school after I graduated and get another degree in product design. And my good friend and brother from another mother, Kevin Hoffer, had internships at Nike, and he loved the place and kind of introduced me to that idea of designing for shoes. And when we graduated together, Nike was hiring. This was 97. And he had a job already in innovation there. And there was an opening in Nike soccer, which was kind of, I think, for, or fifth place in market cheer and soccer at the time.

Like they weren't doing much, but they knew they had to in order to become a global brand. So I was really fortunate to fall into that group. And it was a nice mix for me having an engineering degree and the product design, because there's a lot of technical features about a soccer shoe with an injection molded out. So it was a really kind of nice place for me to land where there was the design aspects, the technical aspects. There was the fact that Nike was putting. money into that and got to see this business kind of be invested in and grow. And so that really

just ignited a fire that kind of hasn't gone out. I didn't know that I loved shoes that much. And when I took the job, I thought, okay, Nike's great company. I'll probably do this for a little while and then maybe do something else. But the interesting thing was that it never got old. It never got tiring in the sense that there's always new materials, there's always new methods of manufacture, there's different problems to solve. So what from the outside seemed like kind of simple became really apparent that there's so much there. And yeah, so that's kind of how I fell into it because a good friend of mine was into it

and opened some doors and never looked back. No, I always had friends ask me from a design school. The design school we went to is really well known for. to make some set for car design. Some of the best car designers and the most of the school is that. It's called Art Center College of Design.

It's in Pasadena. Okay. And like some of the top cheap design, you know, that all the different automotive companies around the world came from this school. Okay. That's kind of partially what,

partially how we both ended up there. But I have friends asked me all the time, like, you know, aren't you sick of doing shoes, you know, all this stuff? They used to always ask me. And I don't know. I'm more obsessed than ever with doing.

Right. So it's so funny. Like the obsession just seems to keep growing, you know, to that point. And it's one of those things where you, you know, you think you're an expert or you think you know a lot. And then all of a sudden you realize something changes. A new technology comes along or something else changes. And all of a sudden you're not anymore. And so that's super exciting.

You know, as far as a career path goes, you never master it. I mean, I never feel that way. I feel like I'm still a student of the thing. I'm still really interested in what's happening in. And there's, again, so many ways to dive in. You could just spend the aesthetic side, just making beautiful shoes. And then there's all of the technical side to dive into as well. And I think, as Dave mentioned earlier, that's where maybe we compliment each other really well.

Dave's more on the creative direction and style side for sure than I am. And maybe I lean a little more on the technical side. Kevin's more of a builder. I think that's fair to see. Yeah. He builds, he builds to solve things, and I sometimes visualize or sketch to solve things, and we kind of come together. Yeah, that's good team. It's worked really well for us, and I think as a two-person shop, it's also been great in that, you know, we're not fighting over the same thing.

We do different things, and we overlap on some things, but it's been a good partnership, and that's, I think, part of why it works for it. I've always, it seems like with a shoe, to me, it's, it's. It's like that soul was always, you know, you talked about the shock. Then there was the air. And then those, those seemed kind of heavy. They're cool. I think they, I think they're cushiony. They've gotten better.

They were really pretty hard. Maybe not the initial shock at the beginning. Well, shocks. But they probably look good. Everybody notices, oh, yeah, they got those, those little, you know, air of things. It was like, that was like a huge marketing thing, obviously. but the shocks were too and then you know you talk about

Hoka they're very comfortable but maybe not structural enough and then so how did you guys wind up with this this product here for your soul well I mean we sought out the best material that we knew to use and to be fair that's an evolution

from our first product which was a little bit lower profile more technical I can't do those zero I have to I need that lift back here because have you guys noticed that like on you know it's stretching out that calf more for long races do people generally like more stack i think so i mean i i think that not everybody can do zero drop right

and i think when born to run came out nike free was big and vbrum five fingers and um the minimus from new balance there were a host of products around that time that were zero drop and i think what lagged behind drastically was the educational portion that right you can't just jump from a, you know, 12 millimeter offset into a, into a, you know, zero drop and run the same. So that idea of, like, taking six or nine months to transition into zero drop kind of nobody heard that. They skipped that. And then people got hurt.

Yeah. Now, some people are great in zero drop. Yeah. And they have, you know, calf complexes and Achilles that tolerate it really well. But I think typically as people fatigue over a long run, they want a little bit of heel ball offset. And this is seven, right? That's seven. Yeah, four to eight is what like most people want to be kind of in that zone, it seems like.

Like you said, there's people that can go zero drop. And, you know, actually traditionally, if you think a lot of the road shoes in the past, and even today still are like at 10, you know, but four to eight when you're talking about trail, that's a pretty nice zone to be in. I think the shorter of the race, don't you, you kind of want to be more on your toes. Wouldn't that be right? Yeah, I think generally the faster you run, the more on your. your four foot you are.

You know, sprinters don't touch their heel at all. Right. Right. So just translating that, the people who are running five, six minute miles are very little heel striking. Yeah.

And some people do that naturally at any pace, but. People ask what I, what my foot strike and I'm like, I have no idea. I just run. I don't, I have no idea,

but. And over a long race, it usually changes, you know, your gate mechanics tend to break down with fatigue. Yeah. And so what you do at the beginning is usually, for most people,

different now someone like Courtney it's a little different but probably never change is exactly the same forever yeah and you know your natural gait some people are just set up to you know put less strain on their body so they can do it easier so you say this material you yeah it came out of our first an evolution of our first shoe so we had a lower profile shoe and athletes like don richelt and and Liz Canty, two of our very early athletes, kind of said to us, hey, I love the shoe, but I need a little more cushioning for those longer distances.

So then we thought, okay, we've been getting good feedback on the fit of the upper. We like the interchangeable plate system with the drop in midsole. That seemed to be well received. People were using that. So we thought, okay, let's do a bigger,

lower midsole and a new outsole based on that upper. And that's what we started probably a little over a year ago. And again, choosing the best material, this beaded P-backs, we knew had great energy return and really good longevity. I haven't seen anybody use this. It's out there. Is it? Yeah.

More on the road side. Yeah. And there are some companies using it on the trail side. The difference is they're using it quite soft, which feels great when you're in the store. door. But when you get on a trail, you don't necessarily need it to be as soft as what you need on the road. Right. So that's where we've, you know, tried to hit that sweet spot of firm enough that it's not going to, you know, make you give you instability when you're, when you're out on the trail. Yeah, I think bigger brands tend to lean more toward what's going to sell the shoe in the store. And that softer, bounce your phone feels great. And on the road, often it is great. But we, in our testing and we, in our testing and we, we tried, it just got squirly and unstable on that trail.

And so we went a little firmer. And maybe it doesn't have as much of that kind of wow in store, but we're not in many stores at the moment. So we believe the athletes looking at us are saying, okay, these guys are really solving the right problems for mountain athletes. And that's how that's one of our big points of difference. Like that's all we do. We're not taking foam from a road shoe and put them on trail.

So that's how. And we don't claim like, this shoe's designed for, you know, elite performers, and it obviously can work for all levels, but we'd also don't acclaim there for everybody. If they work for you, great. Yeah. And we know that we're designing them for elites

and for, you know, people to go fast in the mountains. But if they don't work for you, that's okay. Because you can't, when you're trying to make something that's a piece of equipment, it's high performance, it's not going to work for everybody. Right. Yeah, no, I understand. Yeah. Most people, their attitude is if it works for the best of the best, I think I'll give it a shot.

And they're usually good with that. And probably seven or eight times out of ten, that will be the case. Yeah. But, you know, again, footwear, anything that goes on the body is just tricky when it comes to fit. Yeah, everybody's different. Feet in particular, they're just, they're tricky. If there's one thing that we've learned in all this time in the businesses, you know, there's no, silver bullet for fit.

People have been trying these digital scans and different fit systems. And we think this is the best for our particular group athletes, but it's not going to work for every single person. And we really look at it as a piece of equipment. We haven't said that before, but like, it's, we rarely call it, we called it a shoe earlier just because we're talking about shoes. But we don't really ever call it a shoe. It's like, no, it's a piece of equipment or your feet.

And when you're running these races or your training or whatever. And that's the mindset. that we have and that's why we use the best of the best fit system the best of the best of the best cushioning the best we put it through that space when we're creating not like oh we're just making a shoe so you guys could be equipment dogs not shoe dogs right i like that everybody's ever said i make a shirt yeah we think that aligns well for for you know the elite mountain runners like if there if there's potentially something that nobody else has made or that's better than what's out there.

At least they're interested, usually. Yeah. And then there's also people who may not be podium finishers, might be midpack or backpack, but it's their thing. Yeah. They love running in the mountains. And if they can have something better, a way to make that experience even better, they'll try it. And they tend to have other pieces of equipment, say, in their garage, whether that's a Hoypo or it's a

certain ski. Yeah, they're intentional with their, yeah, they're what they use and their purchases, their, their bike for instance, like, yeah, they have this bike for this reason. We, a lot of times we call these, and I put myself in this gallery, pro sumers. They might never be pros. They might never be able to get to your level, but they still want the same equipment. They want the same experience. And even if it makes them just one percent better, they want it.

That's me. You know, and that's, I call myself a gearhead, call me whatever, you know, but that, that, that is who I think we're targeting with, with this equipment here. That's who, that's the beautiful thing about running is nobody's comparing themselves to the Olympian. They're like trying to set their own PR. If they're running at 10K, they want to break 40 or they want to break 45 or, or 50 or an hour. They're not trying to break 30 and run with Gail and Rupp or something, you know what I mean? So it's like that's with running, everybody has their own thing. So if it's going to make you 1% better and you are knocking on the door,

breaking 40 into 10K and you got to just got to get that, you know, a couple more seconds off for six miles, this could do it. And that's what's cool. That's what I love about running is everybody has their own scale that they're measuring themselves on. One thing, you know, like I said, I did that ultra last weekend. And what I like about these shoes is they don't. It was super muddy and wet, just much, same weekend as the gorge races were. But this material doesn't hold moisture, you know.

So it's like I've had shoes that get heavy, you know. And then you guys have addressed that with this. It's like it's not, it's not keeping that weight. And then also, you know, you have the, I used to drill through my old underarmor shoes so that water wouldn't sit in there and it'd come out that hole. and you guys have this hole actually, this perfectly. Yeah, you just have to, yeah, it goes back to the equipment thing. You just have to trim that with like a wire cutter or whatever.

And all of a sudden you can, you know, it'll drain out the bottom. Yeah, perfect. I mean. It's even faster. We love that idea. Like, we find that people who are in equipment space, I'm sure it's the same in bows, bikes, skis, that kind of gear. People spend a lot of time researching what they're going to buy and the reasons they're going to buy it.

And then there's oftentimes this custom. Right you don't generally a bike you're picking your components and your pedals and bars and like they go deep down that like everything is Yeah just what they want that's not really available in shoes you kind of you buy that shoe and is where it is Maybe you you tweak stuff on your own but there's not much opportunity and we want to We're trying to go down that pathway to the extent that people respond to it right so our plate comes in and out that's one example where if you just want to the softest ride possible, you can take the plate out. If you want a little bit more snap, if you're a faster runner, or you got something that's flat and less technical, throw the plate in and you've got a little bit

more propulsion there. It also acts as a rock plate. So if it's a particularly rocky, of course, you might want to keep the plate in. And that's one example that Boa we touched on earlier. That's certainly a more customizable fit than you can get with laces. And I think we want to continue to kind of look at those opportunities for, you know, how can we allow people to customize their products to make them just right. Because ultimately what we want, and it's kind of an irony, we want people to forget that they're wearing the product. The biggest compliment that we can get is I wasn't thinking about my shoes at all.

I never got to worry about my shoes. If it wasn't an issue, yeah. That means that, you know, the products work in the way that it should. Is there, you know, being Kip said, you were a genius, so you should know this. But is there. Pressure's on. Yeah. Yeah, that propulsion you mentioned, is there a measurable that's saying, because it's added weight, right?

How much does a plate weigh on, say, a size nine? About half an ounce. Half an ounce. So what are you gaining from in propulsion? Is it offsetting that weight on a fairly consistent flat course, do you think? Yeah. I mean, I don't know that we have a science to prove that it's X percent faster, but I think kind of based on evidence and what happens in road when you have. that extra kind of snap in there is that it would pay for itself over time.

Now again if if you're slower runner or you're not up on your toes enough it if it might not. Right. Okay. But it's a personal thing like if it feels like it makes you faster it makes you fast and a lot of times you know it is is like if it's helping here it's helping right and that's true is absolutely true so and again that's why we think in addition to allowing the materials to work better by making it removable. You know, they're not glued together, not laminated. But it just gives the user a choice.

You kind of get an A and a B feel out of one product. The thing about running in the mountains and long races, you have so much time to think. So like even if I have a hole here, in my head, I'm like, if I didn't have that hole, I'd be like, God, my shoes are heavy, that I can't get rid of this water. You know, my shoes are full of water and it's like I'm packing all this. But if I have that hole, even if it's the same,

I'm like, well, you know, feels better. That water's not staying in that shoe. This is a lot better. You know, so a lot of it is like this, these mental games. You're just, you know, if you believe in it, it's going to help. Or if you believe it's helping, it's going to help. Absolutely true. I think like you guys, I was, again, on that muddy course, these, I didn't slip.

I saw people really struggling with the mud. And I don't know what she, I didn't, wasn't paying attention what shoes there wearing. All I knew. know is that like they were going down the super steep hill and they were like it was dicey whether they're going to go down and I was just bombing down it I was telling them to be careful and I'm bombing by him I'm like I remember these two girls were on there and I'm like be careful guys because it looked like it was dangerous with whatever however they were doing it but to me it felt like um you know these michelin souls are you know a few places are using them now or a few um um um shoe companies are

using it's a good soul but your guys is tread design it feels like it's not holding that mud and it's giving you the traction you need you know so shedding whatever it's getting rid of it and that but also helping it's all about like spacing right and and depth yeah and how high they are and a lot of trail shoes these days because they're you know trying to go after maybe lightweight or whatever the depth on the lugs are just getting really really low now where it's really maybe not adequate when you get into mud and stuff. So, you know, that's, again, it's that right weight thing where it's like, we got to have enough lug height, which it might add just a little bit of weight, but you have that traction

you need when you're in mud, which is, you know, the difference between, again, falling down or making that race time or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So. Because you slip, you pull your groin or some freaking thing. He's just like, God, did I, what did I gain by having this lighter shoe? But I, you guys, I mean, they are a little taller, but they're more spread out.

So I feel like you guys, if it was, if they were tight and tall, of course it'd be more weight, but taller more spread out, it seems like the perfect mix on the weight. Yeah, it's a process of finding that right balance because if you put too few, if you space them out too far, then they wear quicker. Yeah. So, yeah, it was a, you know, iterative process. And working with Michelin is certainly great in the sense they're rubber experts. And it gives us a variety of compounds like our PDX we learned.

maybe we didn't have the wet rock traction we wanted. We improved that for the next commission, which was the HSV. And now, you know, as we got into the TAM and we go forward, we're just tweaking that to find that right balance of the great traction and the compound and then the right mechanical kind of structure to it. Yeah, I don't know if the Boas have changed the game for sure. I mean, they've been in skiing, I think, for a long time, but they've been newer to the running world.

I mean, it's been years now. But these definitely have changed. game it. I don't know if it used to be that I didn't know you could back them out before recently. Is that new? That's a newer bow. I think we're the only one in this space using that dial because it's their highest in dial. They use it on specialized X, S works cycling shoes. But most of the other products in run space have used a different dial. Normally you tighten it, then you got to pull it out and then you start all the way over. That's right. And so this seems like a small thing, but I think it's huge. It's huge.

Yeah, it's big. And doing two, I guess it could seem excessive, but we really felt like that zonal control, like doing the four foot, midfoot differently from the top strap is another important, like small detail, but an important one. And we've talked to our athletes at the summit about this. Hey, should we change this? Do you guys want to go to laces?

Do you want to do one boa? And it was a resounding. No, the two is important. And we like this dial and we don't want laces. So I think that's the kind of feedback that, you know, if it had been different, we would be having a different conversation. But we agree that that boa, that on the fly adjustment for different terrain for different times a day, you know, how your feet are feeling is super important. Like tying your shoes sounds simple. When it's dark and cold and you're in the middle, like you're not, you just don't do it.

No, and I was trying to, I was trying to catch my brother. he was leading that the whole whole way he was leading that race i caught up to him twice i think on lap we had six five mile laps and i caught up to him twice and so i was like i cannot screw around with the shoe you know so it was so nice because normally if my feet are swelling and it gets tight um i got to loosen it up i got to start all the way over and then it's loose and then you got to go here and then you're like can't really remember where it was yeah exactly you know it's like god that's actually right where it was my foot still hurts or still not enough. So then you're like, but with this where you can just go, oh, two back, I'm good to go.

It's exactly what I needed. And then sometimes this gets tight because something happens on all the climbing, the front of your, right on your ankle, the front part of it, get those tendons slide in there. Those can get really sore. Sometimes you want this tighter, that looser. And just be able to do that for a couple seconds and keep, you know, if I'm trying to track down somebody, where they're not stopping either. You know, you can't be messing around. It's like made a big difference.

I still never caught him, but it was, it would have been worse. He won the race, but he's won that like six times. So that was good. I do like the heel here too because I've had a lot of shoes that tear up your heel. And, you know, I've said nobody's ever died from a blister. So, why, but man, it feels like when that heel is torn up. Yeah, they can be brutal. It's miserable.

Yeah. Miserable. That's what we have that kind of super soft, synthetic swayed job there. Yeah. It's not going to irritate you. No, that's perfect because I think I just did have, which one? I mean, oh, the vapor flies. I tried those too.

And those, for whatever reason, those are like freaking sandpaper back there. It tore the hell out of my Achilles. It's a really minimal heel package in that shoe. And if it doesn't fit you well, it's pretty rough. Yeah, it was. So this was a nice change. from that. And that's one of those things we could have gone more minimal. We probably could have saved some weight, but we felt like having a nice cushion, soft and proper heel cup is a big

part of the fit in this product, which again, we've had really good feedback on. So we didn't want to kind of try to dial that back. We felt like it's working. Let's keep it. Yeah. I know. Heal fit's key. If you don't, if you don't have secure heel fit, that's kind of any sport. Yeah. Yeah. I know. That's kind of the end of it, basically, right there. Because you can tighten the midfoot all day, but if that heel's going all over the place, that just starts to irritate you and you go crazy. Well, from a biomechanics standpoint,

at least from some of the people that we've learned from over the years, like if you can have a good heel, lockdown, control that heel, it helps the whole rest of your foot strike. If you've got a loose heel, now you're compensating and you're using a lot of those smaller muscles to try to stabilize, and it's inefficient. So it's inefficient and it gets fatigued and then you start favoring things and then 200 miles down the road. You're you're not even the same runner you were when you started.

I mean, your body is just broke down. And it's like the more I think we touched about it and we mentioned Courtney stays so consistent. But, you know, if you can keep that form as long as possible, everybody gets tired and your strides shortens up and all that shit happens. That happens. But if you can keep your head up, your shoulders back and still say and, good form that starts with the feet though the feet start screwing around it changes everything up top you know and uh yeah yeah it's a chain yeah that's uh kinetic chain and so it starts you know for most people with that heel strike if you don't have good heel fit then kind of the rest of it just as uh

yeah disaster so the other thing i like with these is that toebox is you know i don't you don't want it too too big of a toe box but i remember i ran in some i did uh the What was it? Orca Island Marathon. And it was pretty, it had like 7,000 foot a gain. And I wore the solomons than that. And they're more, my feet are kind of narrow. So I thought, oh, these solomons will be good. And I like how they had the, you know, you pulled it.

The quick ball. Yeah, the quick pull. And they, I mean, great shoe for short. But once your feet start swelling a little bit and they're kind of narrow, oh my God, my feet were just, they hurt so bad by the end of it. Because your feet after hours on them, they're just going to swell. Different shape. Yeah, and it's like with a little more, so you can be tighter here.

And then if your feet do swell, yeah, you can do that. And gives you a little, you know, it's going to happen. So you have to have a shoe that's going to, you know, accommodate that. But that's kind of one of those fine balances that we try to find with the last where if it's too wide, you feel sloppy and you don't have good control in the forefoot. And if it's too narrow, then you have the problem you described where your feet swell and there's nowhere to go. So it's finding that kind of middle. ground where the you've got enough width that your feet can swell but you've got a closure system

that allows you to still be really secure a lot of ultra runners like to buy like at least a half size too big yeah yeah because they know that when they get into those miles later that their feet are going to be bigger so they they purposely go a half size bigger at least yeah that's a i've i've done the drop bag later with the bigger shoe just knowing that but like you get desperate when you're you know i've been in races and i'm like does somebody have a knife i want to cut i just want to cut the top just so I can have, you'll do anything. If your feet hurt, because you don't want to quit. You know, you can't say, well, why'd you quit?

All my feet hurt. What? I mean, you're a pussy. So you're like, what do I got to do? Take my socks off? Do I need to cut this shoe? And so it's like, man, your feet. It's like, like I said, you get in your head on all these little things.

And as I think you mentioned, what you want to hear is that you never thought about your feet or, the shoes were never an issue, you were just able to perform. That's what we hope for and work toward is to make sure that the shoes don't become a distraction. What do we say? Absence of sensation? Yeah. Yeah. That's. I like that. So, man, this has been fun. I love talking shoes. I mean, in you guys. We can talk it all the rest of the day. God. This is awesome. Well, we're looking forward to this. I mean, it's great, going to be a cool partnership.

And I think this product, you know, will be. They can order these today and get them tomorrow. Is that, is that what I? No, they can order the GS-TAM today. Yeah, they can get the same shoe today, but not in this color. So your commission will probably be late summer. Okay. So they'll build a, they can get them late summer?

That's the goal. Okay. Yeah, we haven't started building them, obviously. Right. We got some details to work. This is the very first sample, so we're glad everybody's seen the initial prototype. Yeah. Oh, man, it looks so badass.

I wanted blood on it because it's like I used to have a column about bow hunting. And it's like, hey, sometimes you got to bleed. You know, we don't want our feet bleeding, but it's like symbolism like, hey, sometimes it's going to have to take everything you got. If you drop a few drops of blood, that's okay too. So I like that. It's just a sign of symbol of sacrifice to me. Like we're going to bleed to do it. But the shoe looks awesome.

I know it performs well. People, I think, are going to eat this up. It's badass. Yeah, I think we think it came out great. So we're excited to put the final. And late summer, that's not too bad. I thought we were on the underarmor like, oh, maybe five years. Five years, we should have those to fall of 29.

Well, we're moving faster than that. Good, good. Well, I love it. Man, it's an honor to work with you guys. I love that it's small and able to be, I don't know, kind of nimble and make quick decisions and get this out there. That's the good part of being, you know, a smaller company. And we're going to kick ass.

It means a lot to me that we're able to form this partnership. And now people who come here on the podcast, we're going to have shoes available, speedland shoes available. They can run in if they'd like. I'll have different sizes of shoes. People can come on, try them out. See what they think. You guys are awesome.

Thank you very much for coming on the show. Thanks for having. Yeah, thanks for having us. This has been great. Thank you. And we'll end this with the Keep Hammering. These guys are outliers. Don't, I mean, you know that now after listening.

But keep hammering. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Thank you. Cabell's and Bass Pro Shops is a sponsor of the podcast. And that's especially powerful for me because I remember when Cabellas came to town, came to Springfield, Oregon. And I actually played a role in the opening of that store. Instead of cutting the grand opening ribbon with scissors, I shot it with an arrow. And it was just a monumental thing. I mean, everybody here in town was talking about, hey, are you going to go to Cabellas? Can you believe Cabellas is coming here to Springfield, Oregon? So I know what a staple, those giants in the industry are. And it's actually, it's one of the first places people go when they're looking to get geared up to become a hunter is they go to Cabellas.

and buy everything they need. So I'm very excited that we've partnered together and we can help open up those outdoor and hunting opportunities to listeners of this podcast. Loopold Optics has been providing my binoculars and eyewear for the last few years. I like that it's an Oregon company

and they make such high-quality glass as all I've really used. And if you can't find what you're hunting, it's going to be tough to kill. So loophole optics has really played an integral part in my success these last few years. Thank you, Lou Pold, for supporting the podcast.