Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 028 - Laura Zerra

Episode Date: July 10, 2023

Cave dwelling, storm chasing, traditional hunting, roadkill dining, mountain woman. Laura Zerra has done it all and has the stories to back it up. Experience the tales of a woman truly living on life���s edge. Enjoy the listen!   Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com   Connect with Laura Zerra: http://laurazerra.com/ https://www.instagram.com/laurazerra/   Thank you to our sponsors: Santa Cruz Medicinals: scmedicinals.com use code KeepHammering for 15% off Ketone IQ: https://hvmn.com/CAM use code CAM for 20% Black Buffalo: https://blackbuffalo.com/discount/CAM use code CAM for 15% off MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping First Light: https://www.firstlight.farm/ Use Code Cam15 for 15% off your first order Leupold: https://www.leupold.com/ Black Rifle: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv Bass Pro/Cabelas: https://www.basspro.com   Timestamps: 0:00:00 Introduction 0:00:52 Laura’s tattoos 0:02:30 Decivilized  0:05:29 Upbringing 0:06:53 Money as a tool 0:10:00 Gratitude for what you have 0:12:02 Mindset in the mountains 0:15:05 What do you prioritize 0:17:38 Learning what is editable 0:21:15 Feral college girl 0:26:07 Consumable meat 0:35:30 Drinking urine 0:39:35 Groove Life 0:40:00 Ketone IQ 0:41:00 Becoming a hunter 0:44:00 Responsibility for a death of an animal 0:46:52 Most memorable hunt 0:53:00 Learning from hard hunts 0:57:31 Preferred method of hunting 1:10:00 Favorite Naked and Afraid 1:25:00 Food in the wild 1:28:15 Cave living 1:34:58 Worst situation you found yourself in 1:39:50 Best learning situations 1:48:00 Closing

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what bow you shoot, what brand it is. I just hope that you have the same level of confidence in your equipment as I have in mine. Because I know if I get one opportunity with my Hoyt, it's going to pay off. All right. Well, we're here with Laura Zara. How are you? I'm great. How are you? Man, this is so fun.

I'm so pumped that you came here, lift, run, shoot, and now we're podcasting. Yeah, thanks not for having me. This has been a blast. Yeah. I've had a good time. Yeah. I have. I love suffering, though, so, you know.

Yeah. I was thinking I first, I think I first heard about you maybe from Adam or saw pictures or Adam Green Tree down in Australia. You guys were shed hunting maybe? Yes, I had the best Shet hunting day in my life with him. Really? I actually have a tattoo,

one of the antlers from that day on my arm. That's that tattoo right there? Yep. So tell me about your tattoos while we're on the topic. Because I saw the one, the one is a werewolf and a woman. Yeah, it's eating a lady.

Yeah. So that's kind of cool. Yeah, you know, it's kind of what happened to me, I guess. In a previous life? Yeah, yeah. know, in this life, like metaphorically. Okay. Gotcha.

Yeah. And so, no, do you think that? Like, how does that story tie in? Seriously? I mean, I don't know. I think I just became this feral creature. And so, you know, I didn't, I wasn't born feral. I just, the feral chose me, I guess.

Yeah. How is that? I mean. It's great. I love it. Well, let's, let's see. So what's your title? Oh.

God, don't ask me that question. That's the one thing. You know, survivalist for me conjures up images of someone sitting in a, well, I was going to say cave, but yeah, bunker. And like, you know, romanticizing the end of the world and having like a ton of gear. Right. And like they're really angry about it. And they're just hoping everyone dies and that's not me. So I don't like survivalist, but I don't know what to call myself ever.

More like a sunshine survivalist, like a happy one. Not thinking of the end of the world. Like this is. Survivalist by choice, not because I'm expecting the worst, but because I think it's just fun. And you live, you kind of referenced it, but you live in a cave. I live in a cave. I think that's always a great icebreaker.

Totally. Yeah, it doesn't make things awkward at all. Doesn't conjure up any questions. None. No, he moved on pretty quickly after saying that. And I saw in your bio, I haven't seen it, but you have a show on Carbon TV. called uncivilized?

Decivilized. Yeah. It's been super fun. I mean, I kind of worked with network television and I'm nothing against network television, but I just, I'm like a low drama person. And I feel like there were so many things I just wanted to like, I love it when people can go into the back country and not put themselves into dumb situations. And I've been in a lot of dumb situations myself.

So if I can help impart some information to people that I've learned through my, you know, hard won battles. Sufferings, yeah. So that they don't have to go through that and they can like do better and be better out there. Then that's kind of my mission with that. Yeah. I mean, is that so that's a premise of the show, education. Yeah.

Totally. And not doing it in like a way that's, you know, I'm going to dominate nature. It's like I can't take myself seriously. So it's just like goofy. Yeah. Yeah. But people like it, I presume. Yeah.

And then how many like is just one cameraman with you or? It's generally just me, which is hilarious because I'm so bad at recording anything. But I have a great cameraman. Heath, he does, you know, like some of like the interview stuff that ties things together. And he does my editing because, again, yeah, I would, I can't do that part of it. Yeah. Well, you don't have to. Thank God.

You're the face. Right. Yeah. It's always a funny thing because, yeah, that the business side of things that even like keeping up on phone calls and emails, that's so hard for me. But, I mean, I can go. and do it. I really admire people who can do both. I don't, so how does one make money as a survivalist? I don't know. I haven't figured that out yet. Yeah. You're not worried about that part. But I don't need much. So it's great. I mean, that's the beauty of it is I, I live for like 10 years without money. So I know that it's

just, it's a bonus and it's a super useful tool. But it gives me freedom to not only have to focus on that. And I mean, so it sounds like we were, we spent yesterday together and just, this BSing. And it sounds like you grew up a fairly normal trajectory, school, college. And now, because I hear now your mindset on money and like you don't need much. It's, it's, I don't know if you've seen Fight Club. They kind of talk about materialism and, and, you know, chasing whatever society says is important. Or American Psycho, you ever seen that? I've never, I've seen Fight Club, never American Psycho. So it's kind of the same. Or it's just like, what is the point?

to work and money and what existence. Right. And I, yeah. Where did that change for you? Because like I said, did you grow up with fairly normal? I grew up, well, I was kind of two people. Like I was fairly normal. I was really shy, but I was fairly normal.

I was kind of a nerd. But then I would have this whole other life where I'd go into the, you know, I called it the woods, but it was like the overgrown tobacco fields by my house. And I was like pretty feral out there. Just by yourself? Just by myself. Um, occasionally I'd get someone to come with me and then, you know, they'd like lose their shoes in a river and never want to come with me again.

So, uh, yeah, I don't know. I guess it was just like these two different people, but I couldn't do that publicly because I was like everyone's going to think I'm crazy. And then it was, it wasn't until college that I kind of melded it and was like, I don't care anymore. Like, I'm just going to be who I am. Like people can take it or leave it. And then, um, it just got better. Hmm. What do you mean got better?

Um, I don't know. It was like all the things that I thought that people would. like hate me for is what they love me for now. Okay. And I think that was kind of like this big transition where I felt like I had to hide something because I didn't fit into this mold. Yeah. And it was just so much work. And it made me really sad. And then once I started just being who I was all the time, then I was really enjoying life a lot more. You were happy. So happy. You were happy with nothing out. You said, you told me you were hitchhiking, right? Is that what you did? Yeah. Hitchhiking. I mean, it sounds about eating out of dumpsters.

Eating out of dumpsters, like living the dream. But it was, I mean, you know, going back to the money thing, it's like, I saw people who were sacrificing their happiness and their passion in life to make money. And I understand that, you know, sometimes that is kind of like when you have responsibilities and, you know, all these things. I'm not like minimizing that for people. But I also think there's the world we live in right now is really. cool because you can do both. And I didn't know that then. And I just thought, well, I'm never

going to chase money because I see that lead to unhappiness. And, you know, coming around, it's like, I'm not against money. Like, I understand, like, it has value because you can use it as this tool. It's when that relationship becomes skewed and you start thinking of it as the goal, you know, instead of the means to the goal or a helping hand to get to your goal. That's when it, you know, becomes a problem and people don't keep that straight. Yeah. No, I understand that. I mean, and just people try to relate this to their own story. And when I think of that, I think I always had the hardest time tying money to my passion, which is bow hunting. And I was just like, how does money fit in this? Because I bow hunt just because I love to be out, kind of like, you know,

the feeling that it's hard to describe, but until you're out there, then you know. But and then, you know, balancing the money part of bo hunting as a business. It was just always, I mean, so I get that you don't need it, but it's a means to an end. Like, because of the business part of it, I've been able to go to Australia and home with Adam or go to Africa.

So it's like you can't really cuss one part and enjoy the other part of it, but you got to balance it. And it sounds like that's kind of what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, it's really hard to hitchhike across an ocean, right? but so yeah it is it's like that balance i just remember going to third world countries and seeing these like kids and villages that were so happy and they had nothing and then you'd go to you know a really nice resort and you'd see these people that just look miserable lying around this infinity

pool and it was like all right well yeah you can have money and be happy but you have to make that a goal instead of just having it be about the money yeah i mean because you and i've seen those same type of people in africa where you're driving by it It's a grass shack and there's a million kids running around and people are dancing. They don't have shit. Yeah. I mean, first, what would we say it? What do you have or what do you own or what possessions?

They don't have any of that. But dancing and smiling. Right. And then you think like, well, you know, these people are never like if you talk about suicide, it's always people like that we know with things that you'd look from the outside and you'd be like, man, it looked like they had everything. But rich people are killing themselves. Whereas the people who fight every day for survival, they're not depressed.

Right. Or maybe they are, but they're not killing themselves. Like, you know, it's just a weird thing. Like, they're not giving up. Yeah, and I think there's like, you know, just in my experience when you go out and you, you know, I'm sure you've had similar experiences when you're out in the backcountry and like you don't have much, but everything you have has value. And you really appreciate things.

And then when you come back, you appreciate all. all of the other things that you couldn't have out there. And there's just like this gratitude and like appreciation for what you have where if you can just get anything at any time, it's harder to put yourself in a position where you can appreciate that. Like you can still do it. You just have to kind of make sure that you're doing that or else it just becomes, you know. Yeah.

That's the hard part because I think all this sounds great to people listening. But then you know how it is. It's like you actually get out there and it's like, holy shit this is I mean because it's cool I mean it looks cool and people see what you do

and you know you've been on TV you've done all this you always have the big smile but there's some challenge out there you know it's not all just sunshine and rainbows out there it's like so people get to the mountains

and they're I remember I've been with people in the mountains you know how you eat a sandwich and you got the crust and people don't like crust and you know through the crust In the wilderness through the crust and I'm like, you're going to want that later. Yes.

I mean, totally. You're not going to be one of throwing away fucking crust. I mean, that's what we do here at home. You know what I mean? Exactly. Out there, it's like. I'd be so excited if I found a crust. Yeah.

Well, even you'll run the mountains and oh, you wanted something to drink. Yeah. Could I some water? Yeah. You know, and here it's just like, you know, like, I'm not drinking water and you need a pop or whatever. Right. All you care about is, so that's what I love about it because it's a reset. Yeah.

Ice cubes, like when you're out surviving and you feel like boil your water and then you have an ice cube when you get back to civilization, it's like, oh my God, this is a luxury. This is awesome. Yeah, the little things. So what do you think like in the survival setting, what would you say is most important? Mindset. Staying positive? Staying positive, but also staying.

but just creative. You know, it's not like, it's where your focus is. Are you going to focus on what you don't have and what you wish you had? Or are you going to be like, okay, well, I do have all these things. How do I take these things and, you know, fix this problem that I have? So it's just this creative analytical thinking all the time where you're like, I'm going to try that. If it doesn't work, I'm going to try something else. I'm not going to be like, oh, if I only had this one item or this one resource, then it would be fine.

It's like, no, like, forget that. You don't have it. And I think that's the biggest thing. It's like this mental ability to be okay with something failing, trying again, troubleshooting, and not just be. So in a sense, it is about having a positive mindset. But it's also about being able to do something with that positive mindset. Because if you're out there and you're like, this is great.

And then, you know, you're hypothermic. You're still going to die. Right. Yeah. I mean, is that where you see most people struggle is, why do people fail in a survival setting? I think they do just get caught in that loop. of I'm in a bad situation. If I had these things or if I didn't do this or if this didn't happen

or if the weather was good, I'd be okay. I think panic's another big thing is you can make really dumb decisions if you're in a state of panic. And if you're not seeing possibilities and you're only seeing problems, then you're going to fail. And there's just there's always a way. It's just like finding it and being willing to like do that. Yeah.

I mean, how much can people learn from the outside looking in it I mean do you see people do you have to learn it like trial and error or can you learn it and just go have you seen people just go never done it read a book listen to your stuff and then sort like did great yeah I mean I think like I definitely learned from trial and error but it also a lot of what you read in books you know something might work really great in one situation like traps work really great in one environment for one specific animal but if you just think that that's going to work for every animal in every environment, like you're wrong.

Right. There's always something to figure out there. So so much of what you read is, okay, in this situation, this worked, but you can't just expect that to be able to like, you know. That's a lot of things lining up for that situation, right? For sure. I think it's more about, you know, I think the biggest thing people can learn when they're not in the backcountry, they're not surviving or whatever, is like, okay, what are my needs?

What is going to kill me first? Because if you know what those are and you know some general concepts of how, of, you know, meet those needs and not have that thing that's going to kill you happen, then you can apply that knowledge and be creative better because you know what your goal is. When you're out, you know, you've been on what naked and afraid five times. Is that right? Is that what you said? Yeah.

Is I guess the terrain would weigh in on this. But what do you prioritize for shelter or water? Shelter. Shelter. That's what's going to kill you first. It's like if you get really cold right before dark, if it pours rain, you don't have a shelter, you don't have a fire. And all of a sudden it's, you know, even if you do have a fire, if you don't have a shelter for your fire and it pours rain, you're probably not going to keep it. So because that's what's going to get me first out there, that's always my priority.

And then is it water or food? Then it's water. Food is last. Food is like a bonus. Yeah. Because I don't know. It's one of those things where most people don't go without food for a day. Like most people have never fasted in any capacity.

even when they're not surviving. So we think it's more important that it is because you feel that hunger pain and you're like, oh, my energy's down. And it's like, well, no. Like, it's not really yet. Yeah. It's, I mean, I've gone a week without food. I think it's like five days really before I start feeling like my energy actually decrease.

After a couple days, you don't even feel the hunger anymore. It goes away. It goes away pretty quick. Yeah. And that's definitely going to kill you last out there. Mm-hmm. I was thinking about this too. So what if you could choose, would you choose to getting food, getting meat, getting whatever to survive?

Would you choose killing something or scavenging? Because I was wondering, I was thinking about this. Because like if you scavenge, you're not causing more death. It's true. You know what I mean? If you kill, obviously you're killing. Right. So how do you see that?

I mean, I feel like when I'm out there, obviously there's. a lot of factors that come along with scavenging. Like I would prefer to kill something just because there's variables that you can control as far as like contamination and getting sick. And it's like I don't have a, I mean, it's not like I love killing. But I don't have a problem with it. And if anything, it just makes me appreciate everything more. Right.

I mean, I feel like I scavenge more in the front country than I ever would in the back country. Getting a roadkill and things like that. It's like it's there. You know it's, you know how it died. You know why it died. Because that's the other risk. I mean, you find a dead animal in the woods. You're like, well, what?

Yeah. What happened here? And if it did get killed by something else, like, is that something else going to come and try to, like, kill me? Because I stole its food. Right. So how much food do you find? I guess it depends on the time of year, scavenging, like, so not dead animals. But, like, I think finding food is hard if you're just off the, off the land itself.

not the animals, but knowing what to eat, how did you learn all that? Yeah, I mean, I think it was, you know, at first it was like talking to people. I don't do the trial and error thing. I think there's like too many plants out there that can just straight up kill you. And in general, I mean, if you have like a source of berries or something, you're getting sugars, that's awesome. But just like generally plants, I mean, unless you have like a real knowledge of the land, it's not worth it for the 10 calories you're going to get from this salad you make. Like you pick the wrong leaf and that's a huge problem.

So unless I really know a place, then I'm not just like, oh, I think this is this edible plant. Yeah, I know. I don't know that part very well at all. I can kill. I can do that pretty good. The living off the land, like, yeah, I mean, I know blackberries, blueberries.

Yeah, that's great. But, man, I don't know. I've always been curious about that because there's so many different plants depending on where you are. Oh, yeah. And like we, you know, we talked about Into the Wild, I think what killed him is he ended up eating a berry that was very similar to a berry that was edible. Right. Yeah, I know.

It's so funny. There's this whole controversy about that now. Like, maybe he just didn't have enough fat in his diet because he was eating like really lean meat and versus the toxicity of like the wild potato seed or whatever it was that got him. And it's like, but that, I mean, regardless of whatever it was that got him, that is a real thing. I mean, there's certain mushrooms that you can accidentally eat. And, God, there's one where you just have to eat like piles of raw meat because the way your body is breaking down your insides. Like, the only way to replenish what it's taking is like if you don't eat piles of raw meat is going to kill you. I mean, that's like, you don't know your mushrooms.

Like, don't experiment. You know, it's just like you're not getting enough. I think a long-term survival situation, if you're going to be out there for a year and you need the vitamins that certain plants can offer, yeah, that's going to be a bonus. and clearly like in hard times it's easier to have like a stockpile of, you know, whatever, some root that is starchy. But generally, if you can get your meat, that's like the number one thing. Yeah, I know. That's, I mean, because I think we forget, because we have everything here, but how dense

and what a great source of calories and protein, of course, meat is. Because, yeah, you can eat berries and salads. I mean, there's some fruit that are quite a bit of sugar, but it's not going to last like meat does. Right. And it's just there is no substitute for meat. Being able to like choose to be a vegan is such a like first world luxury. I mean, it's just it's not a real, in my opinion, just practical thing if you're actually going out and living off the land.

It's just, yeah, like I don't have, you know, like the teeth that we have the digestive systems that we have like we're supposed to eat meat. Built for it. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah, I've never, I don't know. That's a debate. I guess for in the first world where we have everything, right?

I guess you can choose to do that. But in the mountains, no. No. Because you've been doing this for so long and you've been around and you've taught classes, you've rubbed elbows with other people with this, like kind of a similar background. Who's been the best survivalist you've met or that you've learned the most from? I was just curious about this. Hi.

Yeah. It's interesting because the world. like varied experience and all of that. I think there wasn't really a teacher that I had that I, you know, I, the person that probably had the most impact, Manuel Zarale, he was my, uh, anthropology professor in college. And he's the one who, you know, I'd be like dragon road kill off the highway. And I'm like, I don't actually, you know, I'd butcher things, but I don't know what I'm doing. Like, can you show me what to do? And I built my first bow with him. And, um, so he grew up with a tribe in Venezuela. His dad was an anthropologist. So, I don't,

As a kid, he spent a lot of time down there. Okay. So he learned these skills firsthand from a young age, and he probably, you know, taught me the most, like, actual skills. I don't think he'd call himself a survivalist, even though he definitely had more knowledge than anyone I'd ever met. But other than that, I mean, it really was just me getting lucky and figuring things out and putting myself in really dumb situations. Yeah. For a long time. It's, yeah, it's incredible.

going from, you wouldn't think that a girl going to college on the East Coast would transition to be this wilderness western, I don't know, you say not survivalist, but I don't know what it is. But I mean, that's amazing. Yeah, it was definitely, I mean, it's funny now. I just remember trying to find everything I wanted when I was still in college and I was living in the arboretum of the college, which definitely was not allowed. But I just had this like secret hidden shelter that. I built and like this really like dark thicket.

Yeah. And I would, you know, show up to a class with like sticks in my hair. And it was like a really like preppy college in Connecticut. So everyone just thought it was completely insane. I remember pulling a roadkill deer off the highway and butcher like hanging in a tree on campus and butchering it and just having campus safety. Like they didn't know what to do. They were just stare like, what do we do at this?

I just kind of ignored everyone. had this funny little crowd around me and I was like, whatever, I'm getting my meat. Like, go to class. What are you guys doing? And then what happened? So what did you do with it? You got the meat off the animal. Yep.

Then what'd you do? I brought it into the kitchen of like one of the like student housing places and cooked it up. And it was great. How does, so did you hunt when you're growing up or? No. No one in my family hunted. So it was just something where like I was a vegan for a while. which is hilarious.

In college or when? It was like in high school and into college just because I was like, I don't know, like I don't really know about where our meat comes from. Like it's kind of gross. And then I was like, but I crave meat all the time and I'm tired. But hey, I'm 18. I must just be getting old, you know? And then I had meat actually from Manuel.

He was a hunter. And so he like soaked deer meat and the dregs of this like homemade wine. And I just was like popped a raw piece. in my mouth and I was like oh you're going to get sick and like no it was the opposite I was like bouncing off the walls I was yeah this is what I needed I finally have energy again and and I was like all right I need to you know I was scavenging a roadkill for the hides but then I started scavenging it for the meat because I didn't know how to hunt and I didn't know who was going to teach me and I felt bad asking for help but um eventually like I just pestered him enough that he ended up

um you know helping me build a bow and kind of walking me through some things really that started everything. So you wanted the hides. Yeah, I just wanted to like, yeah, just salvage something. Like I go by roadkill all the time and I'm like, man, that's a waste. I should do something with that. Waste of a life. Yeah. Yeah. Because did you see there's a deer heading out to Wains yesterday. Did you see that? I always see roadkill. I just try to say anything anymore. Yeah, I know. Because you've seen there and I do, I mean, I hate when animals get killed by cars. I mean, It just sucks. You know, it's, I don't know.

It is a waste, but you see all that resource laying there too. Yeah. And it's a life. Yeah. And a life was sacrificed. And I hate when lives are sacrificed with no, nothing gained from it. And, you know, honestly, what ends up happening a lot is some scavenger will come to eat, you know, whatever the roadkill is. And then they get hit too.

Yeah. So it just ends up becoming this whole thing. And yeah, I'm like, if I can use that and it's already dead, then I mean, I've like filled my tag from Roadkill just because I'm like, well, like, yeah, I love hunting. And it's like I love the experience of it. And I think it's important for me just because, you know, you learn the land differently. You learn the animals differently. Your mindset. I mean, everything that happens out there is so important.

But at the end of the day to actually fill the tag as much as I do love the moment of, you know, being able to like have that moment within. an animal. If I see it on the side of the road and it's still going to serve the same purpose and it's good enough for me to actually be able to consume. Yeah, I'm going to take advantage of that. Yeah. I mean, that's a good mindset. It's most people, they see roadkill and they're just like, you know, nobody thinks about picking it up. Yeah. And I think when people hear that I eat roadkill, they think that I'm getting the, you know, rotten pancake like inch high thing in the side of the road. get infested. Been there for two weeks.

So can you, there still is good meat if there's maggots on the outside isn't there? I don't, I don't test my limits too much with that. I used to push things a little bit more. The answer would be yes. Generally speaking. But it's less like the presence of maggots or bugs or anything like that that I'm looking for and more like, you know, you can tell just from looking at animals' eyes how long it's been dead.

and obviously other like environmental factors like the time of day that you find it and if you find it early in the morning and the eyes aren't completely sunken in like it's probably hit recently. Yeah. Versus if you find it in the afternoon it's been sitting on the sun all day.

I mean our bodies also just tell us by the smell of the meat. You have this like visceral reaction to rotten meat where you're like, nope, I'm not. Like my body doesn't want that. No, I mean I think even with the smell, I still think if you had to, there would be cutting off the outside. I just don't know what our stomachs. Our stomachs aren't very strong right now.

Right. You know what I mean? Totally. Like a dog can eat pretty much anything. Yeah. And but with us, with our stomachs the way they are, yeah, I don't know what we could get away with. I've never, I mean, yeah, I've never taken too many chances on that.

So I'm, that's my one thing is I'm scared to puke. So I don't like being in that state of like, Are you going to puke? Yeah, so I eat all these weird things, but I mean, I've never gotten sick from food that I prepared or butchered or anything like that. And I'm like more conservative than I think, you know, some people might think. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, because I expect you to be pushing the limit on that.

Yeah. I have to some extent in certain instances. I've definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I had some stuff from like, oh, this doesn't really taste like meat. Yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine. I'm always like, when I kill something, it's all I care about is keeping that meat clean. Oh, yeah.

Taking care. I'm like so obsessed with just, you know, if I take it to a process or whatever happens that it gets there and it's perfect in perfect condition. I'm obsessed with that. So kind of all this hypothetical like rotten maggots, it's like just me just thinking. I thought you might know. And I'm a site, like I was a butcher for a while. So I was like a psycho about. I mean, some people would bring in their animal and they'd like cart it around the back of their pickup all day and the sun just showing it off. Then they'd bring it in and I was like, and now you're going to eat this. I know. Or it like have like, you know, like half the guts still in it and it's just festering and I don't know. I think that's why people eat meat sometimes.

It's game meat and they're like, oh, it's gamey. Yeah. Like man, if you're really taking care of it and really like from like when the moment that it dies to the moment that it's in your freezer, if you really take care of it, it doesn't have that like, disgusting. None of the kills I have like so you know I killed quite a few animals last year. There is not one gamey. Yeah. I haven't had a gamey bite of any of it. Exactly.

And it's just it's all in how quick you're on it after it dies because people do. I don't know. I think they get caught up a little bit and everybody wants pictures and everybody wants to, you know, go and show their buddies. I get it. I mean, I get it. But man, every second that passes, it's not getting any better. You know, so it's like, it's as fresh as it's going to get, let's take care of it, keep it clean.

And then we can show pictures afterwards. Totally. For sure. Like, get a couple, but it's not all about that. And I don't know, especially if you want to, like, bring people, like, preserve the hunting culture and you want to introduce people to game meat. And then you give them something that's, you, like, barely stomach. It's like, mm. Yeah, I take, I drop off meat at my old work all the time.

There's a cooler in there and I'll just go and just put cool, you know, because a lot of people don't hunt. So I just fill up that cooler with deer, elk, bear. And I'm always nervous that they would get one package that for whatever reason had a little tang to it. And it hasn't happened. But that can ruin. Some people say, I mean, they'll never eat wild game after one time. Yeah. Oh, my uncle gave me some deer meat when I was 15 and it was so gross.

I'll never try it again. I never want to have that experience again. It's like, oh, man. Yeah. I know. It can ruin it for people. But, man, when they taste it, the best bowl I kill each year is usually in Arizona. For whatever reason, that meat, I can tell when I eat that meat, I'm just like, there's got to be Arizona.

And it's just, I don't know. There's nothing like, to me, I love elk, but I eat anything. But, man, that one area of Arizona for whatever reason, meat is so good. I love that. Where's the best meat you've had? I mean, honestly, like, Eastern whitetail, just like that, I think all white tails smells kind of buttery and I love butter. But for some reason, like the Eastern white tails, I feel like they're just so, it's just

smell like butter tastes like. Yeah. So the raw meat, you can, raw meat smells good? I love, I like eating raw meat too. Like, I just love like when it's good, you know, and when you know that there's been no contamination. But probably my favorite wild meat is porcupine. Really? I, there's a reason they're covered in quills. They are so delightful. Really? So that's like one of my favorites. I've never had one. They're so tender. Yeah. Is it, hmm, yeah, obviously lean like a wild game, but just has a good taste,

huh? It has good taste and just, you know, I just find that it's just, you can tell that it's not a sprinter. Right. Yeah. That makes, that makes, that's, that's. It does make a difference, I think. What's the weirdest game meat? Have ever had any game that you didn't like? God. I don't think. I mean, up in Northwest Territories, they cooked, like, testicles.

And I think they had, God, did they have brain? Oh, yeah, Scrapple. Yeah. And that was like, just because I'm not used to it. The texture thing. I'm not used to it. And so that was, you know, I'm a big backstrap, you know, like the normal.

So that was a little bit, I'm not, I'm usually like not too adventurousome on my diet. I eat pretty much the same shit every day. It's funny too, like when you start thinking, I mean, have you ever eaten any insects? Not a lot. It's like I should have been screwing around. But I feel like it's one of those things where in a lot of cultures, it's totally normal and it's great. And like if you actually can look at it without that, you know, oh, God, I'm eating a bug and I can like feel its legs in my mouth. Yeah.

It actually tastes really good, but it's just like the mental thing. Right. And it's like the brain is so powerful, like for better or worse. But it's just funny because you do get in this mindset of this is gross because I'm eating a bug. But if you could look at it objectively, you'd be like, actually it's delicious. Yeah. I mean, I've never, I've one time when I was in, basically the top end there in Australia, I mean, Adam flew out from Darwin and we were going to go buffalo hunting. So we headed east.

And we got dropped off in this little village and nobody was there. It was like had solar panels and stuff. It's like they had built it up for people to live there. But the Aborigines, whatever, they didn't want to live there. So we were there staying in these little shack. And we found a refrigerator was plugged in and it's still working because of the solar panels. So we found like some, our goal was we're going to go back there and survive off the land. So we didn't take any food.

And just got dropped off. And we found these frozen hamburger patties. So we cooked up the hamburger patties. And I just had them like wrapped up in tinfoil in my pack. And so one day we were, you know, we were having a hard time. The buffalo is rough to eat. They're so old. Yeah.

You know, the bulls we were killing. We caught some fish. So we had that. But I'm like, I can't even eat that hamburger patty. So I took it out. Undid the tinfoil. It was just covered with ants. Like ants everywhere.

And I'm like, I did not give a fuck. Yes. You know, definitely ate that meat. Yeah. Eight, you know, you try to brush off some ants, but it doesn't only matter. Yeah. You know, you're just eating. Who cares?

Totally. Who cares? So that's the closest I've got to actually, like, intentionally eating bugs. I'll take it. You know, when you're like, I mean, I did cheat a little bit because in the airport, I bought a trail mix thing. So we had one trail mix in, I don't know if we shared it. I can't remember now, but, you know, surviving off the land isn't as easy as what I think.

No, it's not. Did you guys bring any salt? That's always what I miss. It's like, oh, gosh, you just crave salt. I didn't like licking my arms to get salt. I don't think so. Yeah. So like lick your arm per bite, like a bite.

Yeah, you know, it's got to just add it. Sometimes you can't have it all in one. Yeah. What about drink urine? Oh, gosh. So I had to do that. Funny story. I was like going out to film a show.

The licking the salt reminded me. Yeah. Didn't plan on this one. It was, I basically went out and was told that there wasn't going to be water for a while. And so I'm like, all right, well, I'm probably, you know, I've never had to drink my pee. I don't really know if that's even really a thing. But I feel like if you're really dehydrated and then you decide to drink your pee, I mean, that's not ideal. So I'm like, I'm going to get really hydrated.

It's pretty dark. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it doesn't smell good. Yeah. So I'm like, well, you know, but if you're like really hydrated, then it's like basically water coming out.

Yeah. So I just figured that that would be like the way I'd store water was just like overhydrating to the point where I was like, oh my God, I have to pee so bad and it's going to be fine. Yeah. Like I'll just, you don't waste it and it won't be bad and it'll be great. So I go out and it's like, you know, it's been a couple hours. It's, I don't know, 90 something degrees in the Colombian Savannah and I'm really thirsty. And I'm like, all right, I really have had to pee for a while. Like I'm, this is it.

And so like drink my pee. And I mean, it wasn't terrible, but, you know, it's like it's warm. that's the worst part, I think. So it's never great. But then like 20 minutes later, we found this like beautiful spring. Oh, no. So that's the only time I've ever done it. But actually it's funny because-

You didn't get sick or anything. I didn't get sick or anything. No, it was not a big deal. But the biggest problem I had was that I was so over hydrated that my electrolytes were off. So because I just had, you know, I mean, I don't even know how many gallons of water I drink that more. morning, but I started getting lightheaded because I wasn't replenishing with food and I had

just like thrown everything out of balance. And that's when I first started licking the sweat off my arms. Yeah. But you know, it's effective. That's true. Yeah, you can like, because I do those long races and you can overhydrate. Yeah. You can underhydrate. You can have too much salt, not enough salt. It's like there is a balancing act in there for sure. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. I've never I was going to drink my pee, but I was going to ask. I've read or I've watched, who is at the British Special Forces survival guy? Oh, Bear Grills? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, on TV, I've seen it. Right, right. Who knows how true it is. I know. I feel like he also squeezed water out of like elephant dung or something. I'm like, yeah, that's also a line for me. I know. Not going to be doing that in survival because, you know, if you get sick out there,

it's not just like, oh, it sucks to be sick. Like that is going to put you on a slippery slope down. I was wondering because as I told you, I watched like, I think you're first naked and afraid last night doing research. But when you guys were eating all those water apples, I was wondering like if that would upset your stomach. Yeah, those were so much fruit. For sure.

It was so mild. They were really like, you know, it was almost like a watermelon where it's not like a strong, sweet flight. Well, I guess watermelon is sweeter than those water apples were. But yeah, there's just. definitely a lot of, there's plenty of stuff that you can eat out there. If you overdo it, it's an issue with those things were like, those were good. They were good.

Yeah. Some of them are fermented. So we were almost like getting drunk off. Oh, really? Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, they looked good on the show. Yeah. The sea urchin, I think, that the guy you were with wasn't too into that one. That's so weird. Like, it's like a delicacy. You'll be a lot of money for a sea urchin. Right. Yeah.

What the biggest score was at the lobsters you caught? Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. It was like so much food. It was so good. Yeah, I bet after being, that was two weeks down the road, finally getting some meat or good food probably was pretty nice. When you first start, so I'm going to go back to like you got this calling, you're getting, you know, pulling deer off the highway, getting them out of college. When did you first become a hunter? You said that the anthropology guy taught you, but when did you get your first? kill. I'm excited to announce a partnership with ice barrel cold plunges. You guys know that I'm making a daily ritual to jump into the ice bath before a long run just to get my head right, just a little bump. An ice barrel has provided a cost-effective solution for your cold plunge needs. Ice baths are one of the fastest ways I reset my body because it releases all the endorphins in the most natural way.

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Use code CAM for 20% off your first order. I would go out hunting with him, the arboretum, the deer would get into certain parts of it. And I mean, in Connecticut, there's not a lot of hunters. And so there's just deer getting hit everywhere. Everyone's lawn. There's no vegetation, you know, to where the deer can reach. Yeah. And so I would go out with him.

And it was pretty incredible to, I don't know, just to experience it. Because I had dealt with so many dead things, but I didn't, you know, like the first deer, I ended up having to like chase down before it ran into this amphitheater. full of like, you know, after his wounded or what? What? Yeah, yeah, it was like wounded and it was just headed straight for it. And it was like, it's not like it was a secret that we were killing them, but like none of those

kids definitely knew and they would be horrified and wouldn't understand necessarily because, you know, for whatever reason. So yeah, I just remember like having to like chase this deer down and like I remember like we to like jump on it and I, you know, we cut its throat and it was screaming, of course. Even though there was like no blood left. It means just incredible the will to survive. And I just had this romantic image. You cut something's throat and it dies.

Right. And it did, you know, like the scream just stops coming out of its mouth. It starts coming out a hole in the throat. And I was just like, oh, my God, this is so real. It was so intense. And I'm having this whole moment of just like, oh, my gosh, like this is like, this is life. You know, it's like my first experience of like, wow, like this is what goes into keeping me alive. And just all these emotions and feelings.

And I just vaguely, it was almost like waking up from a dream where you're just vaguely in the distance hear these voices. And I look up on the other side of the fence on the road out there, like the girls lacrosse team is like jogging and they're like, let's go. And I was just like, wow, you guys are having a very different college experience than me. Man, I guess. Yeah, that's intense. I mean, it's, you know, I've spying deer before too and hurt.

They've made noise and it's not the most pleasant thing. No, I mean, but it's. It's real, you know? And it's like, that's what happens. I think it's, it's something that we can lose sight of. And we know that this happens when animals kill other animals. But, you know, that's like part of the sacrifice. It's not like good or evil has nothing to do with that.

It's just life. But I think it's, you know, for me, it just made me be like, all right, well, I better do something worth, you know, the like inevitable sacrifice it takes to keep me alive. And it was inspiring to me. me more than anything. So it didn't turn you off from the act of hunting? Not at all.

Because that was, you know, what we, everybody's after a clean kill, a clean, quick kill. In hunting, it's not always clean and quick. Absolutely. There's no death in the, and there's no guarantee that any death is going to be quick. No. No. That's the way it goes. So it's, yeah, our goal was a merciful kill, but at times, you know, you look,

at the wild dogs in Africa or the hyenas and they're eating those animals alive. Yeah. That the Impala could be standing there with its guts strewn out. Yep. Half concerned. Dogs, hyenas eating them and they're just standing there. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, the reality of it is, it's hard out there. Life is, it's hard to come in with a new life. It's hard to go out with death. That's just the way it goes. Just the way it goes. And yeah, I mean, I think there's There's something about like, you know, if I'm going to exist in this world, you know, that's part of what goes into it. And just because you don't eat meat and you only eat plants doesn't mean that you're, you know,

there's plenty of, first of all, habitat loss. I mean, the fact that there's all these animals getting like ripped apart by the machinery. And, you know, it's just like whether you want to see it or whether you want to ignore it and pretend that you live in a fairy tale, it's just, it's part of what it is. And I, for me, I'm just someone who wants to know and I want to experience it and be able to like look that animal in the eye as it's dying and understand that instead of just like, oh, I'll just pretend it doesn't happen because I don't, you know, want to feel uncomfortable. Yeah, I know. That's the truth. And it's, I think there's a big acceptance to when you accept that, hey, things have to die from me to live.

It's a big transformation. Yeah. And some people never, never accept that part. Yeah. They go to the store, they buy the stuff, they buy the meat, the hot dogs or whatever, chicken breasts. And it's like totally, oh, no, this is just meat. This isn't an animal. Right.

And it's just crazy to think that people can go through their entire life and never, I mean, connect the dots at all. It's, it's super weird to me. And I think it's, you know, if people could understand, like, and it sounds like anyone who's a hunter, obviously, like, understands this emotion. But it's like, you love that animal as it's dying in the weirdest way. You don't love the chicken you buy off the shelf. But like the gratitude and the respect. And, you know, when you've had, especially when it's like a longer experience, a longer hunt and you just, you know, I mean, there's deer that I've known better than people that I've known where it's like, all right, I know that if when he comes up to this tree, he always takes a right around it. And it's just like the little things that you learn.

And yeah, it's just different than when you, yeah, buy something from the store, which, you know, it's just different. No, it's definitely, it's night and day different. So your journey as a hunter started as in Connecticut there. And then what's been the most memorable hunt for you? And how is this journey? I mean, where do you see it going? Oh, man. Gosh, most memorable hunt.

Oh, how do I even pick? Oh, I remember, gosh, I had this hunt in Idaho. It was my first elk hunt. And it was a rifle hunt. But I went out there and I don't know what I was expecting. It was the late season hunt. I think it was only like, I don't want to say. It was like 11 days or something.

I was out there. And it was just the hardest thing I ever did. Like started up high, pretty much immediately got like four feet of snow that were camping in. And it was me and a couple buddies of mine. And it was just, it was hard. There was open ground down low, but there was a lot of pressure down low. So all the elk were up in the snow. But it's like, well, we had to be in that too.

And finally, had an experience where I shot a bull. I was up high. He was down lower than me. Took the shot and like all this snow from the tree above me just fell. And, you know, everything's covered in snow. I'm trying to get a second shot. And I'm borrowing this like done this.

Did you hit him the first shot? Hit him the first shot. But I couldn't see. I was like using my scope instead of like bringing an extra pair ofinos. Bino's, like, using my scope. And, I mean, it's not a far shot, but I was like, I know I hit him, but I want to get another shot in him because I don't know what's going on. And all, like, all the bulls are now kind of mixed in. And I can't tell which is him by the time I get my scope cleaned off.

And there's just, there's trees. And I'm like, oh, no, this is my worst nightmare. You know, that's not what I want to do. Like, I shouldn't be in this situation. And I'm almost like panicked about it because I'm just like, gosh, like, that was dumb. I should have thought. I should have known. So they all take off and finally finally, finally.

his tracks and he's going down and it's snowing like crazy but you can still kind of where there's trees follow his tracks and he ends up going so low I mean a couple thousand feet and then it turns from snow and the snow gets you know less deep and then it just turns to rain and it's just open ground and I'm trying to track but it's pouring and it's getting dark and I'm like okay I got to go back to camp but like I slept for two hours once I finally made it all the way back up to camp went down the next day I think spent two days looking for him and I was just like so crassive fallen. I was like, that's, you know, the hunt's almost over. Nope. So I was really, really upset. And I just kind of want to throw the towel in. I was like, well, that was my animal. And I ended up kind of going

out on the last day. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just taking my gun for a walk right now. And ended up finding this all, like found the elk, but they were so far away that I wouldn't have time to get there by the time night fell. I ended up just getting this weird feeling and turning around and it was this one kind of viewing lane through the Cienothus where I could just see this bull and he's just laying down and I'm like well you know kind of looks like the bull but it's not but he's just kind of you know chilling out there I'm like to you know to get to where I can get a good shot on him where I feel comfortable because at this point I'm just like I want to be close because I don't want to yeah repeat that yeah and I just I started losing faith in my shot and I was like

I just need to be close. So I spent, I was like two hours on my back. I dished my pack of the top. I just had my gun across my stomach. And I was on my back like inchworming down because the scene oath is like, you know, when it dries, it kind of rattles. So I just was like worming my way down. And I finally get up to him and ended up, you know, kind of sitting up. And I'm like, I think I can shoot him now.

And I just watched the wind change. I just watched it. I washed his mind. sent hit his nostrils and he stands up and he's looking and and I ended up like taking this ridiculous shot that I I don't know even why I took it but it ended up spining him really he fell down and I was like couldn't believe what it just happened and it's right before sunset and I'm like this is like the last hour of you know shooting light and ended up going up to him and um I found my other bullet hole in him and it was the same bowl really yeah so so I finished it like right then and it was

just the whole experience of like self-doubt and like just going with things and pursuing it and the effort that I put in and having it all pay off at the very last moment. It just was like such an emotional journey. What a roller coaster. Yeah. You could you can't be any lower. And it's not like that you're you're high because it's not like you're high like you're at Disneyland and or some fucking birthday party. But you're you're high because you you got your bowl. Yeah. You know. And And it's not like this joyous, like this is so fun. But it is, you know, when you've been at the lowest of lows because of the failures, it doesn't really have to be that fucking high to feel good.

Right. I mean, it's so intense. I was like hearing you tell that story, I was like sympathetic to you because I know hunting can, I mean, it can test us. It can leave us questioning. Yeah. Am I a fraud out here? I know, because I have imposter syndrome in everything I do.

You know, I'm like, I'm not really great at anything. And like, maybe I thought I, like, what was I even thinking, pointing this gun at this animal when I wasn't like 100% sure? Why didn't I think about the snow and the tree? And yeah, I always feel like a fraud. Yeah. And it sucks when you wound an animal because of that. And that, and a situation like that just exposes, you feel like you're exposed to everybody. Like the curtains pulled back and here you are, like you have an audience looking down.

I'm just talking about me and like you fuck something up you make a bad shot and it's just like you feel like everybody's like what am I doing? Yeah. What is going on?

You know, I mean nothing can I don't know it's such a ego shot sometimes. It's an ego shot and then it's like feeling like because I was out there trying to have this experience and like take part in my own existence in this way

you know that can be like kind of almost romanticized sometimes. And then because of what you were doing in the experience that you had and the thing you didn't think about, which God, I should have thought about and being so hard on yourself for that. But then having the end result be a wounded animal, potentially that's going to be out there suffering

for who knows how long. Yeah. That feeling sucks. And like being able to, you know, sometimes it works out. Sometimes it doesn't part of it. And ultimately, I mean, there's a million things that could have happened to that elk

that had nothing to do with me. But if I took part in that, yeah, it's just, it's not a great feeling. Yeah. But it was it was just like the whole roller coaster of emotion, like every emotion. Being able to experience that in like, you know, 11 days, there's nothing else in the world that just can bring you to all those different places. Yeah. Life changing. Life changing.

And then eating, you know, eating the meat from that elk, it was like every time I ate that meat, it was like this, you know, bringing me back to that experience and those feelings and just everything that that was. Yeah, no, there's nothing, nothing more powerful, nothing, I don't think anymore, we can't learn any deeper lessons than we can in the mountains and especially killing something that's like, you referenced it. But it's one reason why hunters, you know, you get the anti-hunters who throw out death threats all the time. It's not the hunters because hunters understand what life and death is and why life is cherished. And yeah, you don't say you're going to kill somebody because you don't agree with them like the anti-hunters will. but it's the hunters who have been through so much it gives us perspective. Yep. And that perspective is hard earned and it hurts.

It does. I mean, I've been in those situations where it's like you can't feel any worse. Yeah. And you're questioning your motives. You're questioning, God, what am I doing this for? Am I doing this for somebody else or is this for me? Did I do, did I have the right? Was my heart in the right place?

and I think that, you know, putting those questions in your head, you can grow from it. Oh, I love it. I mean, it's, you know, that sounds masochistic, but it's just like if I'm not having that experience where I'm like questioning everything about who I am and what I'm doing and why I'm doing everything, it's like to, you know, to be able to have that experience and have those questions, it's like, yeah, you learn so much about who you are. And I'm not interested in, you know, like succeeding all the time and just being like, oh, I'm great.

and everything I'm doing is righteous. It's like, no, I want to be questioned. Yeah. I want people to question what I'm doing. I want people to, you know, I want to have those conversations. Like, how boring would life be if everyone is just telling you, no, yeah, everything's awesome. Yeah. I mean, I like it too because sometimes while I might read something or think something and it doesn't

feel good, that's okay. Yeah. I mean, that's okay because it's like maybe I do need to ask myself this stuff. Mm-hmm. Because if there is, if there is something out there that's like, if I'm not being true to myself. I want to ask those questions and no, but it's like every time I've asked those questions, I'm like, no, this is who I am. This is what I do. Yeah. But you need that litmus test. Yeah, you know what I mean? And it's like, yeah, I don't know. When you try to

explain that to people who haven't been through it, it probably seems like a foreign language. But when somebody's out there for the first time and they're on a hunt and everything's exposed and it's like, okay, it's you and this animal and are you going to kill it or not? Yeah. I mean, that's black and what is it gets. Yeah, and it's just real. Yeah. I don't know.

Like, I love how you are, like, real about your stuff, too. Like, the whole experience, like, with the bear hunt, everything that happened, it's like, yeah, like,

sometimes the, like, craziest thing happens is completely out of your control. And it's like, you could just be the person that, you know, injects the perfect kill shot and doesn't tell the whole story

to keep this whole air of, you know, whatever in that moment. Or it's like, you could be real because that's like a journey and that's part of it. And it's just like that authenticity. I mean, it's not, um,

it's not like romanticizing the failures as much as it is just being like, hey, like sometimes things happen that are out of, you know, the realm of what you thought was possible and. Kill and show with the bow is fucking hard. I mean, it's hard.

It's all there is to it. And if it's a grizzly, it's even harder. Uh, I would certainly say that. Yeah. Um, Well, how do you, what's your preferred method of hunting?

I mean, you've done traditional, you've done compound, and you've done, you just mentioned that rifle. What do you enjoy the most? I mean, I enjoy all of it for different reasons, but the bow to me is just different because it's more intimate and it's more, I feel like the moment that the shot happens, there's just a really crazy disruption on the landscape and there's not that with bow hunting. And so, you know, the biggest reason. in that like when I go on rifle hunts, I mean, it's a different experience, but it's also,

you know, it's because I'm not in a place where I feel like I am shooting enough to feel good about my shot and so going out. It's, you know, I don't just want to like target practice on the animal. Right. So for me, it's just, I like it more just because, well, for one, it's just a lighter thing to carry around. And I can just be more, more part of the landscape. It just feels like kind of, you know, more of a more of that dance as opposed to like this like just violent sound. Yeah. Just kind of disrupts everything. No, I completely understand because I don't rifle hunt, but I take people out still.

And it's like I like it because the chance of success are higher, you know, so if it's new hunters, I can, I like to see people succeed. And you can use that as like, because it's a little easier. you can still say all the words you want to say. You can say, well, this is important. But it's like with bow hunting, everything has to be perfect. Yeah. So I enjoy the rifle hunting aspect of being out there. But yeah, it is.

It's a loud bang. It's killing by shock and trauma. Whereas a bow is quiet, killing by hemorrhage. Totally. And it's completely different. You say it's not a, I can't remember how you put something on the landscape where, yeah, it's quiet. And it's your part. feel like you're more part of it.

Right. And yeah, I totally get that. Have you, I can't remember if you said, have you made a bow yourself? Yes, that's how I, like when I first got into it, I was, the first bow I was really shooting was a bow from a hickory that I cut down and, like, you know, carved and tillered and made into this, you know, instrument of hunting. Wow. So it was super fun. And then I got, I was into that for a little while. and it was, they was hard to travel with.

You know, the more you kind of beat them up and the more you expose them to temperature extremes, they're a little more finicky. But there's still something about like the experience you have with that wood and like drawing this, this bow out of a piece of wood. You know, turning a tree into like a bow is just, it's so cool because you have to listen to the wood.

It can't be about what you want. It has to be about what the wood wants. And I love that. You have to really have to like work with it. Because if you're like, this is what I want to make. It's kind of like my whole philosophy around survival where this is what I want and I'm going to do it and I'm going to force this to happen. Well, if you do that when you're making a bow, the bow is going to blow up in your face.

So it was just cool to have the experience with wood. I mean, gave me a whole new appreciation for woodcarvers and woodworkers. And I loved it. But yeah, I mean, I'm not one of those people that's like there's so many people that are, I don't know, they get really, well, you're not a real bow hunter if he's a comment. compound bow. And then there's the traditional people. And they're like, well, you're not a real trad bow hunter unless you make your own bow. And then it's like, well, you're not a real like self-bow person unless you're making your own arrows and flint-napping your own points and like, what, what point do we stop? You know, like we all love this thing. Why are we looking for things that make us different?

Yeah. But I just, I love all of it for different reasons. You know, I mean, I'm not going to be taking a hundred yard shot with a self-bow. Right. There's, there's some limitations and there's some things I love about it. And there's some things that I don't love about it. And, um, I, yeah, but I think all of it is just kind of the same experience. Yeah, yeah. It's different degrees of the same experience. Yeah. Did you make your own arrows too?

I did. Really? Yeah. And heads? Yep. Really? Yep. Did you ever, did you kill anything with all that?

Um, small animals. Yeah. Yeah. Like grouse and. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It'd be tough to, it seems like it'd be really hard to get it like a deer kill. I mean, yes. And it's, it just really depends on like where the shot is. Because obviously you're hitting bone with them.

I mean, it's a soft, like if you're using obsidian, I mean, it's wildly sharp. Yeah. Like it's just like flows through flesh like, you know, water. But it's definitely not something that's going to like have any sort of penetration with bone. Yeah, right. No, you got to get lucky in between ribs or something like that. Yeah. Is that what you used obsidian?

for the heads? Or like there's different flints and shirts. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I want to show you the one I found up here on Piscay. I know. I'm really excited. I love that.

Yeah, I mean, there's, I'm addicted to looking for heads whenever I'm out. I know. I mean, it's like the biggest treasure hunt ever. Oh, it is. It's, so when you're out, I was thinking about this too. So when you're out in, you know, around your cave, whatever you do at your cave, are you walking around?

Are you, do you have the mindset of a hunter or an observer? I think they're the same thing. Yeah. I mean, I think it's more like, you know, it's just understanding that land and getting to like really intimately know it. And like you have to do that to be a hunter. Yeah. And it's just looking at, you know, what do I have?

Like, I want to know, like, I don't just want to see like green plants. I want to know what plants are there. I want to like know them as like characters in the story on that landscape. And I, it's the same with the animals. I want to understand where they are, why they are at certain. places at certain times a year. I want to know what they're eating and what they're like food of choices. And so it's just this level of, you know, there's all these levels of understanding. And I just want to like peel all those back. Because I think there's something to be said about

traveling and experiencing a bunch of different landscapes, but it can be just as incredible to get to know one piece of land and one kind of environment like to that depth. So that's kind of how I look at it. Okay. Yeah. Because I just know when I'm, what I'm out either I'm looking for heads and I'm just like kind of a nod to history. I love the tradition of archery and the Native Americans. But then I'm also like, it seems like if I see something, I'm always like thinking, if I see an animal, how could I kill it? Or where did it come from?

Right. Why is it there? What's my plan of like, yeah. For whatever reason. I mean, I do, I like the observation aspect of it, like you said. Maybe I'm just, I guess you have to be a student of the game. I mean, you're a student all the time out there, not the game, just a student of life. And life out there is like putting the pieces of the puzzle together.

Right. So, yeah, I mean. Well, and subconsciously, you have, like, you're, you've obviously spent time learning or and observing what those animals are going to do to even be able to make any kind of plan. Because if you don't know what that animal is going to do and where it's going to go, you don't know where to put yourself. So I think it's like, whether it's conscious or subconscious, it's like that observation part of things is so important.

And it's something that we just don't do a lot because we're just looking at our phone. I know. I know. I mean, well, like even Kiamen Piske yesterday. So I was saying like, well, they've been seeing this lion and here's this deer bedded and the deer like coming to this bench right here. So the lion hunts that. So it's like I don't know. Maybe it's more of an observation.

Yeah, just putting the pieces of puzzle together. I don't know. Just I was trying to make sense of it, I guess. Yeah. Well, you can look at a landscape and understand where the animals are going to move because you spend lots of time like following animals. Yeah. And it's like you can look at the landscape and know how that's going to play that animal to move through it. And that didn't come from, you know, just thinking of it.

about it. Yeah. And I think one of the where I learned the most, well, not the most, but I learn a lot like trailing wounded animals too because there's always depending on the hit, how they're reacting, the country they're in. Yeah, there's a lot of factors that weigh into where this animal might go to die or depending on what type of hit it is. But yeah, I learned a lot on that and done a lot of blood trail.

A lot of long ones. Hopefully, you know, you always want the short ones. But it's amazing what you can learn out there. Yeah. I don't know. It's just observation too. I mean, it's like your mind's picking up these subtleties. Like even you finding the arrowhead is just your brain picking up this thing that didn't fit in.

I saw just a point sticking out. But you're like, that doesn't look normal. Right. So it's just an observation. Observation. And that's probably what makes a good hunter because there's like you have to notice, notice, basically notice things. Yeah.

The flick of the ear. through like all that dense vegetation in the shadow that you wouldn't pick up if you were just focused on you know the shape of a deer and even little things like when we were just up bear hunting you know the woods will communicate a swirl going off yeah and then you're looking over there and sure shit here comes a bear yeah you know what I mean so the chain reaction you can almost hear it yeah yeah it's it's pretty good and then I had I had and I don't know I talked about this um I think on Rogan but like I love watching the animals and how they react and what I saw was like a smaller bear and it looked like to walk and like trying to walk harder step harder and I was wondering

because when the bear that I killed a big borer came the wind was coming from from the bait to us the bear came from the far side but all that bear at the bait knew he was coming so I was like do are they hearing that vibration each step is harder heavier and then was she trying to mimic that to make herself seem bigger when it's a competitive environment for bait. But anyway, just trying to always thinking about what does all this mean. Right. Yeah. I love that part.

I love that part too. And then you know where you fit into it too. People are probably going to think that I'm just like like being naked. But actually when I was in college, one of the things I used to do is I used to try on, you know, instead of partying with everyone else, like, you know, like all college kids were doing. Yeah. I was like, well, no, this is this unique.

opportunity where there's all these people meandering about. And I want to get from one end of campus to the other without being seen and to up the stakes because I'm a big thing about like the higher, you know, yeah, the higher the risk. Yeah. So I would I would try to do it naked because then if I got caught, that was a bit like I didn't want anyone to see me. But I knew that if I could like do it like then I would really not want to be seen and I would try really hard. Yeah. And that if someone did see me, I would know they saw me. Where did this? Where did this come from? Well, I just thought was interesting like, you know, like learning about dead space and like how you can almost hide it. I mean, I was like in a tree. No one looks up. So I'd like be in a tree like, oh my God, like if they look up and no one would look up. And it was so interesting. And it made me, you know, not only realize certain tendencies that as a human in our culture that I would have certain weaknesses, but it also just allowed me to know how to kind of like move and find that space that people's eyes tend to skirt over. And I just wanted to like, like kind of be invisible in the woods. And so, I mean, half the reason was because I was like living

illegally in the woods on campus. But it was just, it was, it was like a game. And it was a way to use something that people were already doing and insert myself and like see if I could like learn that environment. And then going into the woods and like hunting and stalking and, um, and even just like learning how to not have the birds and the squirrel start alarming and kind of play off of them and move around what they're trying to do. It's just like, it was all part of. of like that learning experience. It was so much fun. Yeah.

So nobody saw you? Nobody saw me. No. Because they would have, they would have thought, this girl is nuts. Thank God it was before the time of cell phones. Because if anyone had seen me and they got like the picture of like the naked girl and the tree being really creepy, that would have been not great. Yeah.

How do you, how would you explain that if you did get caught? I have no. I did not ever get that far. Yeah. It would have been terrible. I probably would have not said anything and made it more weird. I don't know. So I think you were you were built for naked and afraid.

In a way, but then, you know, I was never counting on being caught. Yeah, yeah. What was the most, speaking of naked and afraid, what was the most memorable show for you? I think it was the Amazon just because the environment was so, it was just so intense in every way. And for better or worse. It was just everything there is so alive. And then the mental aspect of the thick clouds of mosquitoes that we were just choking on. It just made everything more intense.

And like you had to be in control your mind. And if you let that guard down for a second, I mean, there were crew members that quit because the mosquitoes were too bad. And they were wearing like full beekeeper suits. So it was, you just had to be on it. And you had to like keep your awareness. And the awareness was tested by the amount of, you know, bugs that were constantly trying to get your attention.

So I just loved that because I was just on for that whole time. But it was so beautiful and it was so incredible and getting to be out there and see the things I saw and the heavy experience I did. I felt so lucky even though there was just this level of intensity at all times. Because of the bugs. Because the bugs and because, you know, the rain was relentless and it was cold. So it was just all those factors. And then it just didn't do anything I expected. I mean, okay, have a fire because the smoke is going to repel the mosquitoes.

no, those mosquitoes are so crazy that if you have a fire, the heat of the fire does more to attract the mosquitoes than the smoke does to repel them. So you couldn't have the fire. So you had to like learn. I mean, really it turned out to be just moving. Like you'd be at a camp for two days and the mosquitoes would start showing up and then they'd just bring all their friends and then everyone would be there. So if you moved, then you know, you'd have like a day that it was better and then it would start to get worse again and then you moved again. So it was like all that troubleshooting. It just was super intense. But I love intense.

Did you, I mean water. Did you ever want to go under water to get away or like cover yourself in mud? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I mean, I did that. I think the mud, you know, the mud lasts for about 30 seconds and then your body heat dries it. And then you're just dirty and getting eaten by bugs. I saw on the one that I watched last night, it was you did get, I can't remember what the bugs were, but you were like pretty bit up.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The chitras, the sand sleeves. Yeah. Yeah. We actually tried using mud. it was like the middle of the night it was a first night

and it was just getting destroyed so you know you have no lights and you go back there and we're like it didn't look like he had the same amount of bites it seemed like you had more did you yeah I don't know why they liked me so much that's a body chemistry type thing is weird yeah I don't know

it was wild but they loved me I was also spending a lot of time in the swamp but they they ended up oh so we're putting mud on ourselves and we like they're like this mud smells terrible what it's swamp mud, you know?

Well, in the morning, we realized it was like thick monkey poop. Oh, my. Like, slathering out of ourselves. And, yeah, it's like, all right. It didn't work anyway. I know I'm just covered in feces. And that was the one that I watched, the first one? Yeah.

Was it Panama? Did you say? Yeah. And then, but the most memorable was Amazon for you. And how did that one go? How long were you there? It was 21 days. And it was, basically, they had like two people,

One guy quit before he even started because the bugs were so bad. They brought in another person. Both of them quit. And they just were like, all right, we'll get these other two guys in there and they're going to do it or no one's going to do it. And so. Did they ever contemplate giving bug dope to you guys, I wonder, if everybody was quitting? You know, they were, the crew was using it and it didn't, it like wasn't helping them at all. Really?

So seeing the clouds and mosquitoes that were still around them and seeing them with their suits and they were still cloud. I was like, well, it doesn't even fire. And so mentally just. block it out. Is that what you did? Yeah, I just had to be like, mosquitoes are not going to kill me. I mean, at that point, I wasn't thinking like, oh, a mosquito can kill you because of malaria. It's like, no, the immediate problem is the bites. And that's not going to kill me. But if you focus on that, that becomes your entire reality. But if I choose to focus on like how awesome the stars are right now and just try to like think about other great things and move around. Yeah, I mean, I've been up

cariboo hunting up off the hall road in Alaska and the mosquitoes, we would say, me and Roy have said before, we felt like you could go crazy. Yeah. I mean, you could go insane. Oh, yeah. Because they're just like, they were something, they're flying like over,

because you can't get mosquito dope on your eyes, on your eyeballs. So they're like wanting to land on your eyeballs, bouncing off the back of your head over and over. The sound. Yeah. And you could, we had dope, but it's like, we were saying if you didn't,

You could go insane if you let it get to you. I mean, you've probably seen the person that just is like, oh, I hate bugs. And they're just like spazzing out and trying to, you know. Wasting so much energy. Yeah. And it's so funny because, yeah, you think about that. You could, it could drive you mad. Yeah, I bet.

But, I mean, that's the cool thing, right? Is that you do have the option of being like, I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. Those shows are addicting to watch I mean I haven't been like

I don't know I think I'm always doing stuff But when you start watching them Because we watched the one with you last night It's like man it's addicting to watch I can see why people love that shit For sure You know they did a good job of like

Making it interesting and yeah Showing the suffering And then I mean At first I was so mad When I found it we were gonna be naked And then when I mean they You were mad You were naked for no reason in college

Yeah but no one was I was filming. Oh, okay. But I was like, man, you know, I felt like it was just going to be a weird thing. Because like to me, like it's not, you know, it can be more sexual like being a bikini than just to be totally naked. Like for some reason there's something that just wasn't sexual about me hiding a tree on campus.

Yeah. But going out there, I was worried like, what if they decided to make it weird? Well, the guy in that first one said, I hope she's good looking because whatever. Like way to make it creepy. Yeah. No. I'm like, I know, I was like, this is awkward. But no, I mean, you quickly just are like, okay, you're my brother out here because this is just, there's nothing sexy about this at all.

But yeah, I don't know. It was, there's just. Do the guys like, look, get cold and small? I mean, I feel like that's always the excuse, right? I'm always cold. Like, okay. Yeah. I don't care.

Yeah. I don't care. did the episode in the snow and he's like literally like dragging his junk through the snow as we meet for the first time and I can just hear him yelling like it's no I'm just really cold it's I'm like yeah it's always has to be the explanation um but yeah I don't know I think there is just this level where obviously it made for a great title and it made for this like catching point to drop people in but the element that it adds being out there of not having that very like that first layer of protection I never appreciated clothes so much

much and what they do to actually provide a layer of shelter until you don't have it. You know, I think that was the worst part with the insects is like when you have like biting ants and they don't have boundaries. That's not a great. That's rough. It's not a great thing. Yeah. No.

Yeah, I've never, I don't, I've never been in that situation. I mean, other than. Try to keep it that way. It's not fun. I mean, you sit on bare baits and I've been to where we've had to like duct tape pants because otherwise I'll come up the pants. Duktape here. But yeah, I mean, clothes are pretty handy for sure.

Great. Close are awesome. What about, it seems like you'd be built perfect for the show alone too. Have they reached out or have you ever, you've done that? Yeah, yeah, I thought about it in the beginning. I know the, I'm such a mover and I like to, like if you get, if you're in an area and you don't, you know, the resources aren't good or whatever. I'm just like a nomad at heart.

So I think that would be a really difficult. thing for me to have to be in one spot and know that wherever I was, I was just stuck there. And then it's just like the level of items that you have. I mean, I think it's great. And obviously you're actually out there living off of what you bring. But for me, it's like I kind of, I've done that a lot. And it's, I wish I was more motivated by the, you know, aspect of there actually being a prize. But it doesn't sound like I can do that on my own kind of thing.

Whereas, like, naked afraid offered me an opportunity. I do most of everything I do alone. So the allure for naked and afraid was that I would go out there with a partner and have to work with someone that I didn't choose. And that's like a level of, like, making things more stressful and uncomfortable for me. Versus being alone, it's like, well, that's my comfort zone. So this is like something I can and have done on my own. Like, why will I let someone tell me where I should do that?

Right. Yeah. No, it's more restrictive than normal. Yeah. How, I mean, how hard is it to overcome? So when you show up on a show, I mean, they would look at you and, you know, you'd look at like some, a big man. And you'd think like, oh, this guy is going to be better than Laura at surviving and naked and afraid and thinking and working and doing all this. How, like, how odd is it that you can't judge anybody on how they look?

What was that? Oh, I think it's my phone. Oh, is it? So you're like, why is there a bird in here? Yeah. I can go grab that. Okay, that's fine. I can't wait for that shirt and all hanging.

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and if you can't find what you're hunting, it's going to be tough to kill. So loophole optics has really played an integral part in my success these last few years. Thank you, Lou Pold, for supporting the podcast. Welcome back. Yeah, it's funny. The sound of a phone is so stressful to me that I had to make it a bird.

Yeah, that was, that's not stressful, yeah. It's like, it's more chill. Yeah, so how, like, do people make that first impression of you and then you've got to overcome that? I love that. I love being underestimated. It's super fun. I remember my first partner out there thought I was an actress and then I was just trying to like trip him up.

And meanwhile, I've been like living in full survival for over 10 years at that point. Well, you had been like on that, you looked like you always had a plan. You know what I mean? Like you always had something. You're like, okay, I'm going to try this. I'm going to do this. It's like you looked comfortable. I never understand how people are bored out there because a lot of people are like, oh,

past the time. I had to do this. I was like, I never had time. There was always a list that was 20 times longer than. anything I could have ever actually accomplished. And there's just always a way to make your situation better. You know, you can like sit and suffer and it's not like I dislike suffering. But if you can like make your situation better by doing work, that's awesome.

And it's so fun to problem solve and do all this stuff. And so that's like my jam. And when I'm doing that, it's just like that's fun. Yeah. It's super fun. And I just, I don't know, it's funny to me that there's certain things guys will be able to do. I'll never be able to lift as much. There's strength limitations, but as far as just using my brain creatively, it has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a female.

And it is always just interesting to me that people would so wildly underestimate me and just think, I mean, how, but I used to hate it and now I love it. Really? It feels like a superpower. Yeah. Well, how long does it take before, I'm sure all guys are different because everybody has different egos and different preconceived notions. But do they notice pretty soon that you're like, oh, shit, she's legit? Oh, yeah. And then they get upset.

Yeah. Because they're like, I'm going to look like I don't have any skills. And there's going to be this girl that like upstages me. And I'm like, I don't like for me. Yeah. It's about the experience. It's not about what I look like. Like, I don't like, we'll talk when the cameras are off and we'll figure out how you're not going to look an idiot.

Yeah. But don't try to turn this into a battle where you're like, you know, it's me versus you. that's so silly. Yeah. Has it happened on every show? Because it seems like to me that you would rise to the top pretty quick because of your experience. Yeah. I think once people kind of started understanding or like people will watch the other episodes

and so they'll know like who it is that they might be out there with and then you kind of, you know. At the same time, I think the issue is that I think like women while inherently strong, we tend to doubt ourselves more. men can tend to overestimate their ability and it has nothing to do with like who's better. It's just like the guys who are going to go and show off on a show, they tend to be overestimating what they're capable of. The women that go out there, they tend to underestimate what they're capable of and think that they're like not a real survivalist. Whereas the guys think they're like impenetrable, you know, and they're going to just go out there.

They're Rambo. Yeah. So it's just I think there comes this moment where like the second that the guide is dealing with a fail, or like this lack of confidence from being like, oh, no, like she's doing awesome and I'm struggling. It just, they don't know as much how to deal with failure was I almost expect failure. And I'm like, oh, okay, this again. All right, let's see what's next. And that becomes the mental aspect.

And then when it gets projected at you because you're doing good and they're like angry at you because of that, I would run into that quite a bit. But, you know, it was never coming from a place of like malice for me. It's not like, well, I want to look good so you look bad. It was just like, all right, like, let's help you look better then. Like, what do you want to do? Like, how do you want to? Yeah, because you could. You could have went the whole other way and just like made them look even worse probably, right?

It just comes back to that whole thing of like, you know, how do you want to have the tallest building in town? Do you want to build the tallest building or you want to tear everyone else is down? It's like, we can all have a tall building. It's cool. Yeah, I understand. Who's been the best partner in one of those shows that you worked the best with? I mean honestly a lot of the women the women you know we just like would go out there and it would just be like you know we could be quiet and we wouldn't have to like yell as much and it was just very like subtle and low key but everyone you know would have their own benefits it's like if I can find someone who just wants to work hard and like have fun and that's one of their goals they're not like I'm going to make it through they're like I want to enjoy the process yeah yeah and I think to a to an extent after the initial time when they would like be miserable and they'd see me having fun they would you know most people would be like oh okay maybe I'll just try to have some fun too because I guess I don't have to be so serious what do you guys ever like tell stories like because sometimes I remember like me and Roy would be on Kodiak and be dark for whatever 16 hours a day and so like sometimes like I'd just read like a can to them or tell a story or what do you guys what do you know what we would do is we would um

Talk about food in the craziest ways. You'd be like, okay, what is the one food from your childhood that you miss? Like, what is the, I have this one kid out of story about how it was like, because Grandma made the best biscuits. And like she was known for her biscuits. And then like 10 years later, they ended up finding out that it was the Pillsbury doughboy biscuits. Oh, it wasn't homemade. And she was like, oh, well, I just, I thought you all knew.

I didn't want to say anything. And like they were just eating these star biscuits forever. And it's just like food stories. And then we would try to remember like, oh, can you remember the, when's last time you? you're at Arby's, what kind of stuff do they have in their menu? I'm like, what's, and we try to just recite whole menus. And, okay, if you could have one meal for the rest of your life, what would it be, you know, just obsessing over it.

Over food. Obsessing, the craziest details. I remember there's a time, too, because we do the same thing. And we're going, I was leaving this after 12 days. And we were talking about, hey, can't wait to get a hamburger, a cheeseburger with bacon. And I remember Roy said, he goes, I'm not going. He goes, can you call my wife and tell her I'm, I have another deer tag I want to fill?

And we'd been there 12 days. Yeah. We'd killed bucks. And we had, I was so convinced that we needed this hamburger, right? And then he's like, I remember him saying specifically, he's like, I'm not leaving here to, just for a hamburger. Because we had like, that's why we were leaving. We were like, we killed the box. We had a good time.

This is what's happening. In my head, I was like, oh, fuck, I can't wait for this hamburger. And then he's just like, when it got down to it, he's like, no, I'm not. I'm not leaving for a hamburger. So it's crazy how much food can. Does that hurt a little, though? Because you were like, oh, you could almost taste it? Or was it?

I left. Oh. No, I had to get. Actually, I had to come back to work. You got that. You got it. I can't remember now. But I do remember calling his wife and saying he was supposed to be home.

And I said, yeah, Jill, yeah, Roy, he's still on Codiac. He said he might be another week. And she was like, what? Oh, my gosh. I don't remember if I got a hamburger. I probably did. I hope so. Is that like your go-to food you crave when you're out there? Man, I don't know. Sometimes it's like a blueberry pop-tart, frosted pop-tart.

How good is it. Have you had cherry? Cherry, yeah. Yeah. But I like strawberry better than cherry. So strawberry frosted is second to blueberry. Okay. All right. Yeah. My daughter just bought me some blueberry pop-tarts. Me and Taylor ran that mountain the other day and I'm like, hey, could you give me some

pop-tarts and milk duds? That's what I took. Have you ever put butter on a pop tart? No. Is that good? Yeah. And then do you cook it? Just a way to add calories. No, in the oven?

Oh, cold? Cold? Cold with butter. Just cream. Or you can put the butter by the fire for a little bit and melt it and then just have a melty butter on it. But honestly, like a cold pop tart with like slabs of butter on it. Yeah.

I usually like the, if I had a choice, it'd be the Pop-Tart and the toaster like kind of burnt a little bit. and then you take a bite and it burns the roof of your mouth. The butter will cool that down on the top if you want to melt butter on it. Okay, I should try that. I guess if you like the burn. So when you're in your cave, what's your plan for each day? I mean, there's always just like things. There's always like an endless list of things to do.

Yeah, like getting wood or like just, I don't know, like I always want to just leave and explore around the area. Like it's really hard to like look at the mountain and be like, oh, I wonder what's over there right now. And so there's just this, you know, I got really distracted from like a night hawk mating display the other night. I was like, I heard it and I didn't know what it was. And I had to go and investigate. And then I had to watch it. And I for like two hours, I was sitting there getting eaten by mosquitoes at sunset, like watching this like bird. And, um, I don't know. I mean, I always have a plan and then I always end up getting distracted. And, uh, but there's endless stuff, you know, even if it's just like getting more water,

Or, I don't know, yeah, wood or just trying to like make a plan and figure out what I'm going to do and where I'm going to build and how that's all going to play out. What's the biggest reward back there? I mean, like, is it finding like a deadhead or an antler or a skull or what's like what's like this makes this a best day? Honestly, it's the night. I'm such a night person. Like I just love when it's like when it's like dark and there's. but there's a moon and like you're out there and it's just like you feel like you're so far away from everything else and like the piece I get there for me that's like a huge reward I sleep so good

like I don't sleep as good anywhere else like being out in a place like that so that to me is like priceless because I really value sleep and I don't do it enough but um yeah I mean I think the ultimate thing is like for sure I mean finding a finding a skull I haven't ever found like My dream is to find a wolverine skull someday. It's definitely on the list. But, yeah, I mean antlers, but it's like it's not even about that because it'll be about the whole day that led up to that moment. And there's so many rewards.

I was, you know, you mentioned the night. So last night I noticed full moon. I don't know if it's quite full, but it looked full. And in town you don't even hardly notice a moon. Right. But every night out there, I can tell you exactly what the phase of the moon is. That's what I was thinking is. Like the moon is, so can you tell, do you tell a different if it's a full moon?

Or there are different things going on with the animals? Can you tell any difference with the moon? Yeah, I feel like there's definitely more activity. You know, I think things are taking advantage of that light more just like I do. And I think, yeah, I mean, there's definitely a difference and I like them. I like it all for different reasons. But for me, I mean, I love one of my things is I never want to be reliance. on like needing anything.

And so being able to cruise around at night without a flashlight in the woods, like leave it behind and go on like an extended long journey for me. Yeah. It's almost like a high because you know that whatever happens, whatever you end up wanting to see. I mean, I'm sure it's not the safest thing. And I like probably should never tell anyone to do that.

But for me, it just makes it like real. And it makes it like a whole different experience. I love that. Do you stay like on the ridgetops to do that? Because down in the can still get very dark in the timber. For sure. And doesn't the moon, can you get stuck out there? I've had to wait before, like, after sunset and then maybe the moon's not going to rise for three hours.

And so I'll just get stuck and I'll just sit and listen and hear all the things. And then like the moon starts rising. I'm like, oh, sweet, I can cruise again. Yeah, because that's so different than the normal human experience. most people sitting in the dark woods would be miserable. You know what I mean? By themselves. But there's always something to, I don't know, take from that.

It's so weird because if you talk to like, you know, 100 random guys and you say, have you ever spent one night in the woods by yourself? Most would say no. It's so such a foreign in this day and age, such a foreign thing. And I would, you know, it was a big challenge for me when I went to the wilderness first

and staying by yourself, I would just go for the weekend. And it felt like a big thing. Like you're laying there, you're picking where you're going to sleep for the night, what bed, if lightning comes in, where am I, where am I at? All these things that you never have to think about. But once you do, then it's such an empowering feeling when you don't need anybody. And you're back there and it's just you in the mountain. I feel so much safer out there too.

I feel like when you're in a, I mean, when I was a kid, I used to just want to sleep out in my backyard. we never went camping or anything. I would just be like, I'm going to sleep out in the backyard. And now it's like I'm in a house and there's lights on and I feel like I'm like this target and everyone can see me but I can't see them and I'm just like this glowing target. And when I'm out there, I just feel like I'm part of it and like I can actually see anything I need to see.

Like if someone's coming towards me with a light like they're the ones who are the glowing target and I'm just like part of the mountain. So you're in control. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it just there's like a piece that comes. to that whereas like as long as I pay attention to what's going on around me and I'm, you know, aware of like what the animals are telling me as far as other animals around me

and I know what's in the area and all those things. Like you can kind of, I don't know, predict or understand more what's happening there. Yeah, you can evaluate risks. Yeah. And humans are the variable you can't understand or control or predict. And so I'm not saying you can like always know what's going to happen with animals, but, you know, humans freak me out way more than animals. Yeah.

That's, I mean, I've thought that too. like with bear people say well do you hunt bear with your bow and this all that and I'm like an animal I don't know what a man's going to do men are or humans are some are crazy some are yeah you don't know you can't but an animal even a wounded animal in some ways you can kind of predict a reaction even if it's that it's going to be unpredictable in that moment yeah and then you at least know that so it's like the cars are on the table like I don't know what the fuck's going to happen right here yeah but yeah with with humans, man, it's a wild card every time. Every time.

So I get that. Yeah. And you don't know. Most of the time I would think that people in the wilderness would be like not looking to harm people. Right. You don't know. You don't know.

There's crazy shit happens. Crazy shit happens. And especially if you're on like the outskirts and, you know, I don't know. I think it's just one of those things where it's like I don't live in fear of people. But at the same time, there's just like a peace and a comfort and a. quiet that I can get out there that exists nowhere else in my life. I understand that. What's the worst situation you've been out there by yourself?

Or you're like, is this it? I think, I think, you know, I was on top of a mountain in a really bad storm. And I, it was like, didn't have enough layers, had, you know, was sweaty at the top. And then the weather just changed. That's when the storm hit. And I couldn't go up. anymore and that was kind of like my way of keeping warm is like moving up climbing and then all of a sudden I'm like oh no I can't go up and I have to come down because really the wind is whipping and the snow

was really deep and it was just like that feeling of exhaustion and not knowing if I could get on and get back to camp and then not even knowing which side I should dip off the mountain because it's just a whiteout yeah and I'm used to using the landscape for navigation and it was such a whiteout that I just didn't even know where to go I just knew that I had to go and um you know you feeling like I just didn't have anything left in the tank and that I'd be, you know, climbing along and I'd break through the snow underneath like a like blow down and find those air pockets. And it was like, all right, I can't think about where I'm going or how long it's going to take me to get there. And if I have the energy to do that, I have to make it through the next step.

That's what I have to do my job right now is to take one more step to keep moving right now. And it was like I got down that mountain by having all these moments of accomplishing one more step. And it was crazy because I just didn't think I had anything left in me. I was so exhausted and every part of me was like, just take a break. And fighting through that and the realization that I had there that no one was going to come and save me and that even if I'd had some kind of device to get an emergency signal out, no one would have been able to come. Right.

And it was all in my hands. It was like my fate, whether I lived or died, was up to me in that moment to decide. And I'd never had anything like that where I'd never had anything like that where I realized that, okay, I'm tapping out, like, that's it. It's like, no, like, I have to do something right now because there's no, nothing that's going to save me except for taking this more step. And that was just like a cool feeling where it was like, I was, it was the first time that I was aware of the fact that, you know, maybe I pushed it too far. Maybe I didn't have anything left. And I just had never experienced that in my sheltered life. I think morality is

powerful. I mean, when you realize that, yeah, I mean, you know, I think most people go through life thinking they're never going to die. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like that. There's always time. Yeah, we've got time. We can do this. This is whatever. So when you are faced with like, man, this might be over. Yeah. It's a, yeah, it's a powerful time. Yeah. Do you take a weapon when you're out there? Um, if I'm like close to people. And if I have other people with me, then I do just because I never want to be in a situation where there's like, you know, I'm responsible for someone's safety. You're like we get into a bad situation and I can't protect them. And then for my dog, I actually started bringing like usually bear spray because if he gets an area.

I'm more worried about an interaction with an animal that I can't predict because he's there. Right. Because he's not any sort of protection. He's a liability. And in all likelihood, he will like initiate a conflict. Yeah. So, you know, when he's out there with me, I definitely behave differently. But I'm not saying people should.

I think, you know, having a weapon out there is a smart idea. But generally speaking, I find I do more stupid things. And I like move through the woods with a level of ignorance when I have a backup plan. Yeah. So it's just if I know it's not there, then I'm constantly having this level of awareness of like my actions, right now are going to dictate what happens and I have to pay attention to them. I have to pay attention to my surroundings. I have to know how to like, I mean, you can always run into a bad situation. There's always a risk. But hey, like I said, driving a car, there's a risk there too, but I'm not

not doing it. But I mean, yeah, I wouldn't say like, oh, it's a great thing to not carry a weapon. I would never say that. But it's just a weight thing for me. Yeah. I mean, it's, oh, I know. They're heavy. I mean, that's what I always think about when we were hunting one time. I hate taking guns. But one time I did have a pistol on Kodiak and it was just like so fucking heavy. I'm like, I left in the tent. I'm like, I'm not packing this thing around anymore. Yeah.

I know. I'm the same. Yeah. What where do you, I don't know, this is kind of a different question, but where do you find most enjoyment like learning from other cultures or speaking? spending time alone in your home mountains? I mean, I do love, I love both. I think for me, I need to the,

it would be a bonus if I can learn from other cultures, but like the solitude and like knowing myself and like having that time alone is like imperative to my survival and it makes me who I am and it makes me appreciate everything else I have in my life. And I think without that, I would not be well. And I think I love learning from other cultures And I love learning from cultures

That have a connection to a place that's just so deep Because that's super inspiring And I love learning stuff about that area But alone time for me is like that is my like addiction Yeah I love spending long periods of time alone And the places it brings me in my head Are so fun

Yeah do you read out there or what do you do? No I just spend time in my head. Yeah. And I just, I don't know, it's kind of like, I think it's like spring cleaning for my head with like if I have like things, if I'm using distraction and I'm not really understand what's going on in my brain, then like it's that level of knowing myself and knowing if there's like weird demons lurking, you know, and like being able to like meet them and

have that time. I like not having the distraction. Okay. Because I don't want to tune out. I want to be like super present. what comes up. Be raw with whatever, whatever thoughts and feelings you're having. Totally.

Yeah. Raw dogging them. Raw dog in the feelings. Yeah, I mean, if I was asked myself that question, I loved going to different places, but it seems like I'm always trying to learn about that to apply it back to my, right. Elk hunting or bear hunting or whatever I do is like, can this make me better? better at home.

Yeah. Because I had these things like I've dreamed about bo hunting big bull elk my entire life. So I'm always like, well, I can, you know, the trackers say in Tanzania or the Aborigines, you see, you learn about the cultures down in Australia and the history and you're like, well, man, maybe if I have a different perspective back home and really honor the tradition of what we're doing as hunters, maybe that's going to make me better, put me in a different mindset. So it seems like that's what I'm doing. I love spending time with these people and learning from them. Yeah. But it seems like I'm always trying to like have it help my my toolbox back here.

Right. Yeah. I feel like if you'd ask me, you know, I don't know when I was like 18, I would have had a different answer. But it is. I just like I used to just be so obsessed with like, I think I've just realized how scattered I can get and how I want to learn all these things and I'll never have enough time. So it's like at this point, I'm just like, if I could spend every. every day for the rest of my life, exploring within a hundred mile radius of where I live and I would never see everything. And it's just, it's like trying to choose, you know, what I want and how I want to relate to where I am. Yeah. Now, man, the mountains are the best medicine out there. What's your, like, what's your goals? Yeah. I think for me it's been really fun as this

really introverted shy kid who just felt like I liked stuff that no one else did. It's been a really cool process to get to share what I do and have people be like, oh, I never thought about things that way and I want to go and try this and oh, here's a picture of me on this mountain top and I never thought I would be here. And, um, like you inspire people. Yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, it's like, I'm so uncomfortable with that word. But yeah, in a sense, it's like, even if it's just like, oh, if this shit can do it. There's nothing special about her. I can do it. Like if that's the way it works, it's like, that's great to me to, you know, the more people that are out there, the more people have that connection. I just think it's better for everyone.

Yeah. So just like finding, I just want to find more ways of bringing what I'm doing to people. And I think what I have that's different is like it's not about this conquering. It's actually the complete opposite. It's like, all right, how do I like bid into this thing I'll never conquer? and not taking myself too seriously and just like sharing that with people. Because I think people in general do take life way too seriously. Like there's serious moments.

And then there's times where it's like you just have to laugh at the chaos at all. Yeah, I understand. Well, so how do you share this with people? I mean, right now, like just doing my show on Carbon and trying to, you know, do Instagram and social media, which it's so funny. I feel like one of those, you know, old people that's having like a little kid show on the phone. I'm like, I barely know how to use the thing. It's so funny.

But I mean, I think it'd be fun to work more with, you know, even having different, as a solo person, this is very weird for me to say. But just, you know, getting more people involved than what I'm doing. And I'm just, I'm not the best at filming everything I'm doing because I'm like, I do this every day. It's not interesting. But I think, you know, working with other people, kind of have a fresh idea of what it is and like what people. would be interested in seeing and getting to share sides of myself that aren't planned is, is like, that's a cool thing to be able to do. And, um, I don't know. I like bringing other people out there and getting to see it through their eyes. Um, not necessarily like a,

like a class. I think that's kind of not what I mean. It's more just like having authentic experiences with people and, um, learning more like about things just from their mind and how they look at things. I think that's interesting. Yeah. Um, but, like concrete goals. I mean, there's no like stats to really measure them in my eyes. But it's just like doing doing more, sharing more and like kind of going down that road more. Just living your life. And I mean, I think, you know, I'm always like a pro.

Brandlin Shockey. But I always think about him making a film on what you do. It's like because you have this, you know, unique look, thoughts, perspective on all that. And having a film made on that seems like it would be, you mean, the shows are good. The shows are good, but any TV show has an agenda. Right. And they have like this format they follow.

And but like a film that's like can show how you feel about it and your thoughts on, you know, what you're doing at that time. It just seems like, I mean, I know I'd love to see it. I don't know, it's like, you know, you are very unique. and just what you're doing. And I think, man, people would love it. I don't know. I don't know what the adventure would be.

Maybe it's just living. I love about filmmakers, right? They always can like find this story and something that I don't see the story. It's so hard to look at yourself. You know, I mean, I can't even tell you what my title is. So it's like, how do I, but I love that. That's why I think it's so cool as much as I always thought I'd be a hermit. I just love people because all of our perspectives on things are so different.

And you kind of need that also to be able to see yourself in a different. different way. Yeah. I mean, I've always wanted to write a book too, but it's also like, well, what do I write it about? You know, and I think there's always these questions where it's like, I don't know, I'm just me. I'm still like the like weird, you know, girl living in the arboretum, like under the cloak of darkness. So I don't know. When did you turn weird? Were you normal like, did normal kid stuff and then you turned weird at a certain time or what? I mean, I think I read a lot because I wanted to have adventures and I was always like weird, but then I remember wearing like like a spider, like a fake spider on my head to school and being like made fun of so bad and being

like, what? Like this is the, you're wearing a bow. I can wear a spider. How old were you then at this time? Like second or third grade. Okay. I mean, so it was always just, you know, but I feel like a lot of kids feel like they're different. Yeah, yeah.

I think so too. It's hard to feel like you fit in. Yeah. Like there's a few cool kids and they probably don't even. I was never the cool kid. But they, you know, if the truth was known, they have the same doubts, I'm sure. Right. But most kids do feel weird, awkward, and not accept it.

So, I mean, you kind of embraced it. Right. I'm just still the weird kid. I'm going to feel weird. I'm going to put a spider in my head. Yeah, I love it. There's L. Gowler here. What's that?

Oh, yeah. It was a year that I actually couldn't make it out on my yearly trip to go find sheds and deadheads and all the things. And my friend Dave found this and sent me a picture. And I was like, I'm never going to have another year where I don't make it out there. So I got his bull tattooed on me to remind me that I didn't want to miss out and have a feeling again. So you're never going to miss out again. I mean, knock on one.

All right. Well, I mean, I don't know. I could ask you a million questions on a million different things. I just love, I love everything you're about, Laura. I love that you're, you know, your spirit that you carry out there. And I think you influence a lot of people. And it's, you've influenced me, and I've been impressed with what you do. And it's been an honor for you to come here and lift, run, shoot with me and talk.

It's, it's been great. I appreciate you. I appreciate it so much. I had so much fun. And, yeah, thanks for, thanks for finding the edges I needed to push out there. Oh, you did great. Normally I end this show, is this hers right here, 10? Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah. So my goal is to speak. spend time with outliers. And you are definitely an outlier. And then I end the show with like this, you know, your new bow that you just shot so well yesterday, 100 yards. It's my bow. That's your bow. And it's, I mean, you know, you're a true outlier. It's, it's an honor to spend time with you and learn from you. And hopefully we can get in the mountains and make some magic happen, whether it's on film or just hanging out. Always. I'm always down. All right. Thanks so much. Thank you,

Laura, I appreciate you. Black Rifle Coffee Company is a company that's very easy for me to promote because I drink coffee all day, every day. But more importantly, they are a huge supporter of the veteran community and are a veteran-owned business, so they have my full support. Use code keep hammering for 20% off your first order and 20% off subscription to the coffee club, where you get exclusive coffee blends and merchandise. Mountain Ops offers the best supplements on the market and functional gear for athletes and hunters. Their battleground merino garments are some of the best I have found. I've chosen to support a company that supports the community.

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