Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 042 - Kevin Akers

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

  Join us for a discussion with Kevin Akers, lineman, Oregon bowhunter, elk caller and friend of Cam’s. Kevin covers tips on determining a successful elk hunt, elk calling and more!    Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com   Kevin Akers Links: https://www.instagram.com/kevin_akers447/    Thank you to our sponsors: MUD\WTR: https://mudwtr.com/cam use code CAM for 15% off  Black Rifle: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first Order Santa Cruz Medicinals: scmedicinals.com use code KeepHammering for 15% off’’ Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv  Leupold: https://www.leupold.com/ Bass Pro/Cabelas: https://www.basspro.com   Timestamps: 0:00:00  Intro 0:06:05  Kevin’s Key to Success in Oregon Elk Hunting 0:10:40  Any Excuse to Hunt 0:15:09  Close Hunting Connections 0:19:54  Hunting in Colorado 0:22:19  Antelope Hunting Out West 0:27:03  Cam & Kevin’s First Hunt “Ranch Bull” 0:41:22  When Kevin Started Elk Calling 0:47:52  The “Lip Ball” in Elk Calling 0:53:32  Real Elks Calls VS Hunter’s Calling 01:03:27  Cow & Calf Calls 01:07:07  Strategy Behind Calling Bulls 01:14:26  Hard to Get Bulls 01:23:07  Rifle VS Bowhunting 01:36:45  What’s Determined Elk Kills Every Year 01:50:36  Outro 

Every step I take I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel. Gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I move it's so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. All right.

This is a Keep Hammering Collective with Kevin Acres. Thanks for having me, man. Did you know you were going to ever be a guest on the Keep Hammering Collective? You probably should anticipate it, right? I kept a secret though Yeah, I mean we don't want people The word getting out and crowds forming and we got to we got to gather right Protect protect so exactly for people who don't know I'll just give you a brief little history biography of

Kevin so Kevin Oregon Bowhunter from way back it's been a lineman we mean Kevin both started like in public working municipalities about the same time, I think. 96 is when I started. I think I was about there. Maybe 97. But anyway, you've been in Lightningman. Now you've been there for how many years is that?

It's getting close to 30, right? Yeah, may have 96 until now. Yeah, yeah. Still. But during that whole time, we've been bow hunters. When did you start bow hunting? You know, I was thinking about that on the way down here. I was like, what am I going to say?

But I'm like, I don't know. How about bow hunting? So I go, well, I think my first deer tag, archery tag, was in 1985. Oh. Or six, one of the two. You got me beat then. I was hunting with a recurve. Ooh.

Did you kill anything? No, I missed all. No, I couldn't hit. 30 yards was like a hundred yard shot now. Yeah, I couldn't hit. I mean, my first season, I missed 16 bucks. But that was my boat sounded like a 22, so. I know.

Yeah. But I worked, some people I worked for on a farm, they, as a summer bonus, they bought me my first compound, a Golden Eagle. And I think I was 15, 14 or 15. And so it was just off from there. That dramatically improved things. So I had a Golden Eagle Super Hawk Turbo Cam. Do you remember what yours was?

It didn't have that many names. Yeah, just Golden Eagle. It was a Golden Eagle compound. And I was like, I was flabbergasted when they got it. Yeah. I was just like, no one I knew bow hunted. Nobody bowed. Was it black? No, it was camo. Oh, shit. I see, I had a camel my own. So green and black spray paint with ferns. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to do that. The arrows. My first, one of my bows, I think it was a bare bow I had. I did spray paint it all black. Like, you know, black became a popular thing of a bow.

It's called murdered out. Oh, huh. Well, I spray painted mine black. Yeah. Long before. it was in vogue to do it. Yeah, it wasn't cool, but I did it. But remember painting arrows. I used to paint arrows. I never did that. Wayne did that and screwed himself up. Oh, yeah. It couldn't have been good. No. I mean, but when you're trying to get pie plate accuracy, remember that was the goal, like a regular white paper pie plate, if you could keep your arrows in there, then you're good to go. Yeah, that was standard wisdom. Well, actually, the standard wisdom was your hunting distance is, whatever distance you can keep four out of five in a white paper plate.

So you could have, you know, one three foot off. But if the other four caught that edge of that plate, hey, shit, how far is that? You're good to go. I know. I think a lot of people one out of five would have been good on the plate and off they went, you know. But hey, it was, yeah, the equipment is vastly superior. There's no doubt. It's not even close.

I mean, I missed a lot of stuff, of course. and yeah, it was just, but I stocked a lot. Yeah. You know, the whole name of the game, and it still is, it's but hunting. You're supposed to get closer. Yeah. And it's tough. And I remember when 30-yard pen was my last pin.

And so if it was at 40, there could be a world-record bull at 40, and I'd try to get 10 yards closer. I'd probably just hold my pen high and let it go. But I didn't have any ethics back then. I mean, ethics came in later, it seems like. Ethics evolve over time. That's a tricky word. You know?

I mean... I just wanted to kill. Yeah, me too. That was the overpowering, overwhelming desire. And I don't think you teach people that. Yeah. I think that just is... I'm pretty sure it was born into me

because I didn't need any assistance or help. I mean, I lived off and on, you know, kind of like you did with different parents and stepdad and stats. And my dad hunted a little bit, right? But he took me. in like my first two years rifle hunting. Mudwater is something I've been using daily since I started the podcast. It's supposed to be an alternative to coffee,

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Yeah. And there was no doubt what I wanted to do. And that's the one thing that I've always done. Yeah, I mean, to your point, nobody ever had to like encourage me to go hunting and kill. They had to maybe say, you know what, maybe you need to not go so much. So it was like I just was addicted to it. it, but what I've always said about, about you specifically, specifically is if you have somebody who's hunted public land, especially in tough hunting like Oregon, but this isn't like, I've always said,

nobody from Montana, Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, they're not coming to Oregon to Elkhine. So if you can kill Bulls in Oregon, and especially like this, I have this benchmark, if you can have killed 20, over 20 bulls with your bow on public land in Oregon, then I say, if you know somebody like that, you should probably listen to them because they know what the fuck they're talking about. That's a good benchmark. Right. And so that's you.

How, what do you think has been your key to El Cunning's success? Hmm. Well, I got to add to preface this, really, that not all those bulls, you know, I'm shot a lot over 20, but a lot of them came from after a while I would dub would go to Idaho. Yeah. After I lived there, I'd go back and then hit another state. So then you're hitting years where you're killing two bulls, maybe three. Yeah.

And so it starts stacking up. Yeah. As you well know. Because in Idaho, you could get, if they didn't sell out those non-resident tags, you could buy another tag and kill two bulls, right? Yeah, when they went to that system, that was possible. And there were guys that did it. Yeah.

And did well. But, you know, so there were a lot of years there were two bulls. But yeah, it was up for years and years. It was just Oregon. And that was the big deal. And I always hunted Eastern Oregon. I never really, I never really did the coast that much at all. I mean, there were just more elk.

It was more, I mean, it was just more country. That's where I started hunting. So it was more country that I felt comfortable in. And, yeah, so that's where we'd go. And it was fun. I mean. Well, how would you get a bowl on the ground? What was your time?

Time. That's what I say. Time is a bow hunter's best friend. I mean, it doesn't matter how good you are. if you only have a handful of days, it's tough to get that slam dunk, or not even a slam dunk, but a good opportunity without just being out there more.

Yeah, and the kind of hunting you're talking about, you know, time was more critical. If you go places with high oak densities, you know, high bull to cow ratios, yeah, time's still a factor, but not as much because you're getting the opportunities. But back then in those places, and even now, I mean, it's hard hunting.

I mean, those are hard hunted elk. Yeah. And they go to places people don't go so much. And it's just so time. I spent a lot of time at it. And that was a, and of course, effort. I mean, I didn't sit around camp. I didn't grow up, you know, sitting around in a wall tent with a stove.

I mean, slept in the back of my truck or under it if it was raining and stuff like that. You know, he's just that overpowering desire just to go. And you got up and you put miles on. And eventually you earned a few hours. opportunities. Yeah. I just, I remember feeling back then, if I hadn't got a, if I didn't kill an elk or hadn't got one killed yet, I just was like, could almost, couldn't even hardly live with myself. You know, it was just like, this is all I care about. And when I can't get it done, it's some, there's some central serious mental issues. It's like, I don't know, it's,

you put so much into it and it's so freaking hard. And I couldn't imagine a whole offseason thinking about that I didn't get a kill and I have to wait 11 months to get out there and now kind of again. That was probably one of my biggest fears or phobias or whatever you want. Or I was afraid of that the most just because it meant so much. One of my favorite packages that I get on a monthly basis is a black rifle coffee club exclusive coffee roast. The only way you can get it is if you subscribe to the coffee club.

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today. I mean... Yeah, well, it controlled your mind. I mean, it controlled my mind. I remember, you know, like being working the week before season was getting ready to start. It was just like, I had a hard time focusing. Oh, yeah. I was just like, this is, this is at the time, you don't know, of course, but now I think that was powerful to my mind because that was all I would think about. Yeah. And I'm like, there's not much else like that. works like that just because the nature of the business I'm in, you really pays.

You got to pay attention. It pays to pay attention. Yeah, you don't, reckless people don't, they get hurt, they don't last long. Yeah, it's, no, being alignment is definitely high stakes. But yeah, I'm the same as you. It's like that week before, I'm not saying I didn't give a fuck about work, but I guess you could say that. that. It wasn't, I mean, yeah, it just was, I'd say it was overpowering. You're buying,

just buying time waiting to like when you could leave. Just went that Friday or whatever day you're leaving before season, it's like, finally. And if someone would have had approached me at that point in time with plans like, hey, you know, I'm getting married on this day or something like that. Dude, I would have looked at them and been like, yeah. Good luck. I'd say to people, I'd go, oh, dude, I'm getting married. You know, no, I said, I'll catch you on the next one. Yeah, I know. It's just your first.

Yeah. We'll get the, we'll get the next one. Catch you on the next one. Yeah. But, yeah, no, it was a, it's, you know, works different, though. Works different than hunting. The focus part's intense and both, but the hunting thing, like I say, that, that was more out of my control.

That was, like, more in my mind than work. Work was like, you've focused and you paid attention to really think about. You just, you know, you did what you were supposed to do, but it wasn't, you know, you'd go home and you weren't necessarily overwhelmed by that. Yeah. All the time. Hunting was different. Yeah. Hunting was just like overwhelmed.

I just wanted to go. Mm-hmm. And it was, yeah, so. Was it always elk? It was elk the number one driver? Yeah. Because I know you've hunted everything. Yeah.

I just wanted to go, man. Didn't matter what? No. You know, an elk was a big deal. Elkin were always a big thing. Yeah. And so they took a front seat to everything else. But when I was a kid, we had some neighbors and they moved away.

But I got, they left, I don't know, there were like five boxes of outdoor lives from like the 60s and 70s. So a hundred magazines had to be. I read them all of them. Jack O'Connor, all that stuff. And man, I'd look at those pictures and I'd read that stuff and I was just, oh, my God. Those adventures. I mean, that imprinted on me. And I was like, oh, my God.

that that's the most, the greatest thing I'd ever seen. Yeah, that's living. Yeah, I'm like, living in the mountains. Yeah, I was like, dang. But so, yeah, that just imprinted on me. And I haven't had to think about it. I don't go, oh, hunting season's coming up. It's not like you're getting ready for Halloween or something, right?

It's just like, it's, well, just like today, I said, you know, Truit's coming in, we're going to take him deer hunting. I said, are you going to be able to go? And you're just like, oh, when is it? It doesn't matter. Then I didn't really answer you. You said it doesn't matter when it is. I'm going.

Yeah. That's pretty much it's, I've always, you know, because I don't rifle hunt, you don't rifle hunt. I mean, I guess you do a little bit dabble in it. But I don't care. I'm not a rifle hunter, but any excuse I can get to go to take somebody. Somebody has a tag. Somebody has this. It was like, I bought, you know, we hunt on, it's kind of the Powers Ranch is kind of what

we call it, but it's also a bunch of warehouser land down there and timber company land. And so we have a pretty good setup down there to hunt. I think it's like 20-some thousand acres. I can't remember what the total is. But it's, I bought two rifle hunts to be able to hunt that and not for me, for anybody. I don't care. I just want to find somebody to go with. And this weekend happens to be true, it. And we're working on the other one. But yeah, it's like, Those are hunts that, not for me, for somebody else, but I'll be there and that's good enough. Yeah, and I think it's just, I think the going, right? This is what's in motion.

This is my direction to do that. I think that's, to me nowadays, it's the same as whether I'm hunting. Now earlier, you had to spend, because the opportunities were farther and fewer between for lots of reasons, you know? But they, you had to do all my time. I was extremely selfish. I mean, I hunted with my buddy Blake, but that's it. And it was, it was go. Every man for himself to be successful because opportunities didn't come by very often.

And when you found something good, kept your mouth shut. Yeah, definitely. And so, but now it's not that opportunities aren't good, but there's lots of other reasons. And I enjoy down there as much as anything. helping people and do that. And I realized, I think I'm on the way up here, I just got back from there. I know.

Trying to kill a bear. But I was doing it with a rifle because my buddy Blake, who passed away a few years ago, it's his grandpa's hunting rifle. So I have it, and I was like. You refurbished it, right? No, it's the same as he had it? Okay. Exact same.

Gotcha. And I remember when he got it from his grandpa, we were checking it out. And I was like, that's pretty cool. And he goes, yeah, I'm going to shoot some black tails with it. I'm like, cool. And he did it. And I'm like, now that I got it, I'm like, I think I need to shoot something with this. So it's kind of a, I don't know, it's kind of a deal.

I don't care if I shoot a little blacktail buck or a bear or whatever. Yeah, it's going to be with that. Yeah, I'm going to make a point of that pretty much every year. Well, I mean, you mentioned Blake. It's, you know, hunting and having like a connection with you for somebody with Blake and then me with Roy, it's pretty crazy that both of our best hunting buddies have done. died. I know. And we have, you have a tattoo for Blake. I have one for Roy. And it's just that if people, you know, aren't hunters, it probably wouldn't make as much sense as it does make to us to where

to always have that memorialized, their memory memorialized on our bodies. Right. And I know Blake was, I mean, you guys did a ton of hunting together. Then he didn't, what did he die from? Was it cancer. Brain cancer. Yeah. Yeah. No, we were hunting buddies since high school. And it was just me and him. We didn't have it. Like, there wasn't a group. It was me and him. We went. And we went all, you know, all over the West because I don't know what in like 98 or 99 discovered the hunting fool, right? Yeah. And it opened up new worlds. Yeah. I mean, there wasn't one applicant, one piece of information out there like that. That was pioneering. Yeah. You know, I don't have any opinions about this is good. All as I know. All as I know. was they put out information in a digestible format that mattered, right, tags, how to get them,

where to get them, reviews on units, how point the draw systems work, you know? Most people, they don't know, modified preference points system, preference point, bonus points. We found out what all that meant, and it went, oh, oh. It's like the code, you deciphered the code to this. because, yeah, I mean, when we first started, I know I never had money to be thinking about going to other states. It's like, you know, I had hunt in Oregon. That's all my chips are in Oregon and that's it.

Yeah. And then I think I hunted my first time hunting out of state was for elk was 2004. So I'd been bow hunting for 15 years before I ever went out of state. Yeah. And then went to Wyoming. But it was, yeah, I mean, once those magazines came out and then Eastman's I think it's the members research supplement. Right.

Similar. And they had a similar thing. And then that's where like, wait, so you can hunt different states? Still people who don't understand it, say, how many else can you kill? It's like, well, how many have states? Or I mean, how many states have elk? How many tags can you get? How many tags can you get?

Yeah. Because it's, you know, we're so used to killing one in Oregon. But then once we figured it out, it's like, well, wait, what if I could get a tag in multiple states and just go from hunt to hunt? So then that was like, it didn't seem real to be able to do that. That seemed like no way. That's for people. Blake and I nickname that. We call it the Western Swing.

Western Swing. Yeah. Because we'd have a couple tags. You know, we both have Oregon tags. We'd have Idaho tags. Maybe I'd have Idaho and he'd have Wyoming and stuff. And it's like, yeah, we just went and all those that's back to the magazine thing, that was my ex-pro. Those were my adventures.

Those were his adventures, right? We went and did and saw places. I mean, I'd never been in the mountains of Wyoming in September. No. Or Idaho. And it's beautiful. Yeah. It's different.

It's beautiful. And it's like, oh, man. And there's so many cool places. And we were kind of through hunting. And those were my adventures. Those were my, those were my Africa. Those were my Alaska. Those were all those.

It's those adventures, you know. And yeah, but it is back to your point. It is kind of strange. Both our hunting buddies and best friends passed away, you know, different ways but yeah Blake was a stud yeah it's you know 49 brain cancer you know we work together I'm the I was the best man in his wedding godfathered one of his kids and uh that's that is a trip yeah it it's just there's nothing that prepares you for that well really was 49 too yeah I mean that's nowadays that's so young you know when we're young 49 seems old I know and now we're

well past 49 or I am. Me too. And then you think about that they both died at 49. It's like, man, you're just getting it figured out. Or just taking advantage of all these opportunities, you know, these hunts and this, you know, having a little more money and more time and, and, you know, they're gone. Yeah. And it's, and I really, yeah, I haven't, I don't think I've hunted with anybody else.

I can't think of. I mean, I go with you. And that's it. And like, I just got back from a trip from Colorado by myself. By yourself. Yeah. And speaking of points, I had 20 antelope points. Because, you know, I just built.

I started building points everywhere. And you killed a nice buck. I did kill a nice buck. Yeah. And it was Colorado, you know, I never, I wasn't. When I build points for like that in those states or some of those states, I'm looking down the road. I don't think about it.

And eventually, I'll probably be able to get their. best archery hunt, you know, at my, at will so I can plan for it. You know, I'll have the points. But since I'm busy all the September now, um, down there with Ron, it's, uh, it's like, well, what are my opportunities? It's like, well, October. Rifle hunt aloe. So, yeah. Which happened. Yeah. Now, I killed a nice buck. He's, he'll, he'll go right at 80, I think. It's a good, good buck. It's a good goat. But the one thing is, you build that many points. There's overrated hunts, right? Like my personal opinion, and I don't know, Oregon may hate me, but there's a lot of people,

analog tags are limited in Oregon, as they were, are everywhere. But I ran into a guy. Anyways, the points needed to get certain tags can be overrated. Hunts can be not that good, but they're popular for some reason. Yeah. But how good is the actual hunt? Right. I just talked to a guy coming home from Colorado and he had a nice Utah bolt by his truck.

They had like 17 points in Utah and got an outfitter and killed a nice bull. You know what unit it was? I don't. Yeah. He didn't say. I didn't ask either. But he was, uh, he was, I was told him, I'm coming back from antelope hunting in Colorado. And he's like, oh, cool.

He goes, I got, I got 25 antelope points. And I said, I'll tell you what, dude. I go, if I had 25 antelope points in Oregon, I'll trade you for 10 points in Wyoming right now, straight across, maybe eight points in Wyoming. Yeah. Because it's just, it's different levels, you know, and there really are. This hunt in Colorado ended up being a really, really good hunt. Oh, good. Yeah.

There were lots and lots of antelope. So my hat's off to Colorado in that unit. There were lots of antelope. They were accessible. They weren't all on private land, which is something you've got to be careful of, too, drawn tax. Might be a great unit, but you can't access them. Can't get to it.

You can't get on private land. And there were quality antelope. I looked at a whole bunch of analytics. you know, in the 70 to 75 range, 65 to 75, right? And in Oregon, that's big. Those are huge. Yeah, Oregon has produced some really, really big antelope. There's no doubt.

But, you know, it's a numbers game with them. Yeah. With predator control and, you know, and other factors, of course. But, I mean, a perfect story of that is a few years ago, my buddy had antelope tag. He had 18 points, you know, rifle hunt. And I'll go help you. And in Oregon, they're in August.

Or that was, yeah, that was late August. early September. But that same year, me and him and his brother had, they wanted to go to Wyoming and they had some points. So I go, well, I know some spots I go. So we all put in, Wyoming averages your points. Right. So I'll draw, I'll go with you. But I went and helped him on this Steens hunt and it was like, dude, it wasn't good. I was like, oh, like three days. I saw like 20 antelope. Right. And is there, well, there are places in there that are probably better, yes. Did we look at the whole unit? No.

But overall, I'm like, so I told them, I go, listen, boys, I go, here's the deal. I go, when we go from Utah to Wyoming on I-80, I go see a big sign says, welcome to Wyoming. I go, in the first 10 miles off the highway, you will see more animal and bigger bucks than we've seen this entire time in this deal. They're like, no way. And I told them, there's signs, start looking.

I know. And they did. And they're like, oh, my God. Yeah. I've killed some good bucks in Wyoming too. And it's just like, it used to be that if you put in for the, there was archery only tags, right, 100%. Yeah.

You were going to get it. And it was tough hunting, but it was way better than Oregon waiting 20 years. Yeah. You know. And I started in Oregon because I wanted to brand, you know, not like Elkhadier were boring. I was doing that,

but still those adventures and the more unique stuff like Antelope. Yeah. And not to mention I really like the places they live. I mean, yeah. I like big deserts. I do. But it's just, it seemed more adventurous. You know, it's kind of a unique species.

And I started in an Oregon when you could, I think it was 100% draw for an antelope tag. And then, yeah, I branched out after that. Yeah. And I've hunted antelope almost every year for the last 20 plus years. Yeah. Between here and Idaho, you hunt a lot too. Yeah, Idaho used to be over the counter. And they still, to this day, have unlimited draws.

which is if you make it your first choice, you draw it for archery. I see. So I do that. But yeah, I just, I like them. I like hunting them. And they just live in some crazy places. They're cool animals too. I mean, contrasting colors, striking an appearance, got that black on the head and the horns.

And, I mean, just cool animals. Yeah, and you can stock them all day long. Yeah. That's the deal. If you blow a stock, you just go over there and look some more and there's another one. But if you can spawn stock and kill an antelope with the bow, that's not the easiest thing there is to do. It's definitely good practice. There's a lot more stocking than killing.

God. I don't know. I've crawled and laid in the middle of it, you know, I don't know. Even when you're laying down, I don't think you're hiding from them. They still see you. I think so. They look over and look there's a dude laying there. Yeah.

Yeah. I know. They're tough. They're tough to spawn stock. I just can't say water. I hate seeing water. I have. I'm an opportunity.

man, whatever works best. I hear you. And finding really good, reliable water spots isn't always easy. So, you know, I always keep that. I'm always trying to find that. And if I find it and it's good, I use it. Yeah. But most of the time it's like, well, there's one.

That's in a good spot. I think I can get there. And so it's just all day long. You stock and stock and move. I mean, it's not like mule deer where it's like that. They went in the brush. Got to wait eight hours. Yeah.

Yeah, come out at night. Yeah. Yeah, no, for sure. They're out there. I mean, they're usually visible. That's the cool thing about ANOO. Yeah. Yeah, no, it was fun.

But yeah, my hat's off to Colorado on that. It was 20 points and well worth it. I don't know how many points it took to guarantee it. It was probably up there. But I also wanted to do, I wanted to go, of course. I mean, in the travel, I went to six states getting there. You know, I'm coming back. And it was, I drove a road that I'd never drove one way I went that I've never gone before.

Kind of back roads I'll drive sometimes, smaller highways, because the interstate gets bold. Right. And so... Just exploring, looking at new stuff. Yeah, new stuff. Yeah. Daylight, Vernal, Utah, man.

I woke up. I had my camper so I could pull over and sleep wherever. Yeah. And I just woke up, drove into town. You know, that's a beautiful place, beautiful sunrise, had to breakfast, and just kept driving. Tough to beat that. Pretty good.

Had analypt tenderloin that night. Awesome. That's living. It is living. Well, the first time I think we hunted, together. Wasn't it 2010 for it was 2010? Yeah. So there people don't get it twisted. So we were hunting this bowl called the ranch bowl and people, anytime you say that, people say, oh, you're hunting a high fence game ranch or whatever the fuck. No. Did they see it on Google Earth?

Yeah. I know. I, I, I, I, I, people make all sorts of stupid assumptions. But anyway, it was called the ranch bowl because this property there, people call it the powers ranch. It's just thousands of Bakers, but he was like the basically king shit on Turd Island there. And he was the ranch bull. He ran the show, basically. Well, it is the Powers Ranch, but it's not what people would envision. No, no, no. A lot of things aren't, you know. I mean, it's coastal logging country. With some of that unique... There's no high fence at keeping elk in or out or anything like that. And it's bordered on two sides by public land. Yeah, National Forest. And BLM on one side. Yeah. Private timber company stuff and other...

And plenty of people are getting in there. I mean, you know, it's, it's, yeah, whatever. Yeah, these elk, yeah, these are as wild as it gets. And I don't know, people, yeah, there aren't any unwild elk unless you're in a zoo. Right. Or, you know, one of them weird places where they kill one that's 680 inches. Yeah, that's usually high fence Idaho, I think. Yeah.

That elk came from a place about as big as this studio. Yeah. And it's like, that's different, of course. Right. Yeah, the ranch bowl wasn't, he was a tough one for us. I mean, because we're hunting basically one animal on, like I said, 20-7,000 acres. Yeah. And it's thick timber.

You know, it's, you know, coast country. It's, there are some logging units, and there's some meadows in that some of the high prairie country is what we call it. But for the most part, those elk are sticking to the timber. And so we, I think it's. It took us, man, I don't know. How many days did we, were we down there? It was five. Oh, he planned the whole week, I believe.

Yeah, so like five days. Finally, we're sitting, we're in, yeah, one of our favorite spots down there, midday, and herd of bugle. Today's podcast sponsor is Santa Cruz Medicinals, and it's a company I'm proud to talk about because I've been using their CBD products for years. We use a CBD beef tallow to cook our elk steaks, and their CBD cream is one of the best things I've used post-run to help ease the pain in my muscles. They make an array of potent CBD formulas. To be effective, CBD has to be dosed properly, and Santa Cruz Medicinals has those potent dosages. They make CBD deep sleep caps, pain creams, magnesium, beef tallow, which can be used as a moisturizer or for cooking,

MCT oil and more. Check them out at SCMedicinels.com and use a code keep hammering for 15% off and free shipping in the USA. And we're like trying to figure out which way it was. I remember I was pointing one way. Jody Ciro was with us. He's pointing the other way.

Maybe you were pointing both ways. I don't know. Yeah. I'm not sure how it worked, but it was somewhere around noon or maybe even afternoon. And we're waiting for the evening hunt. We're just, you know, kind of chilling out, waiting for the elk to get active.

And we heard this bull. So we thought, sound like the ranch bull, you know, because the night before, I think you and Jody saw him up on the skid road up on top, didn't you? Yeah, we did. That's when Jody filmed him. Taring up the road. And Jody was called. I didn't call at him. Yeah.

I saw him, I got down, Jody was behind me. We kind of came up at the same spot. We didn't know each other there. Well, Jody, Cal called out in a little bit. Yeah. And was filming him. And that bull got pissed off. Oh, God.

And he was mad. And I was watching this. And I'm like, that's unique. That's interesting elk behavior. That's like, that's elk behavior of bulls that, like, have a lot of competition. And, you know, and you see those big herds and multiple big bulls. And they get busy. Yeah.

And they're aggressive. It's very aggressive. And he didn't have any of that. A couple satellite bulls around, I'm sure. Nothing to challenge him. No. But he was still like that. Yeah.

He was just on range. He was not having it. And, you know. I am bodied. Oh, my God, that thing was huge. That's still the biggest, that's by far the biggest elk I've personally handled. Mm-hmm. You know, just, I mean, you could, you look at the girth of his chest and you're, you start

cutting, and you lift a hind corner up. You're like, oh, my. Yeah. He was, I think 12 or 13 years old is what we were figuring. Yeah, I think that's what Ron said. And he'd known him his whole lie, you know, he knew that bowl, because he looks at those bowls all the time. Yeah, he's out there.

Ron's out there. he used to be in charge of, you know, well, he's in charge of the land, basically, as far as keeping track of everything. But he was also did all the logging there and a lot of the road building there for many years for the Powers family. And then the leases on the timber company land. But so he's out there basically all the time lives in Powers, Oregon. It's like there's no place else to go. So you kind of go to the woods and scout around, check timber, check roads. And so he had seen this bull for years. And that's where the name of the rancher was, came up. So we thought, well, there's this, there's this other guy, this big money governor

hunt guy, bought an expensive tag to build a hunt basically anywhere in Oregon from, I think, September 1st to December 1st. Any weapon. Any weapon. Any open legal hunt. Yep. And so basically, he wanted to kill a giant Roosevelt. You know, some of these big money guys, Roosevelt is kind of one of the toughest ones, it's not one you can just throw money at. A lot of these other ones you can throw money at and get on these premium properties. But Roosevelt Elker usually not like that. So he wanted to kill a giant bull, and I know he went to a few different places, or talked to people hearing about how big a bulls they had. Well, down in this country where the Ranch Bowl was, there was another giant bull. I can't remember what they probably had a name. I think Ron called him the

4200 Bull. Was that it? I think so. Yeah. So that's just a lot. logging road up there for the 4200. It's a main line. Yeah. So, uh, freaking Warnock goes down there. And he's, uh, you know, rifle hunting in September, which whatever, it's legal for that tag. Hey, good on him. Yeah.

Took advantage of it. And he killed a big bull. Giant. Giant bull. Like a was about 3.30. Yeah. I think it was 3.30. And you got to think, you know, uh, Boone and Crocket Roosevelt is 290.

So 290 is like an all time animal. and to get a bull 40 inches over that at 3.30 is just incredible. Yeah. It's one of the biggest Roosevelt bulls you'll probably ever see. Well, he killed this, and we got down there, and he was leaving, and we were cussing Warnock for killing a giant bull during our bow season. Just, dude, you know, it's mostly just talking shit. It took years before I think it was kind of known that that we were joking.

Yeah, yeah. We're totally joking. Because we were doing, fuck, Warnock. And it was a joke. It was like, God, that guy got that. You know, like you said, good on him. I know. Hey, he didn't do anything wrong. You have the resources. You're after a certain thing. I know. That allows you to do it. Good on you, man.

No. Wasn't breaking the law. No, no, no. Doing exactly what I would do. Me too. And but that doesn't mean we can't talk shit about it. That does not mean we can't make fun. And we will make fun of you. And it was just a good, good-hearted fun.

But so our goal was like, You know, he got that the 4,200 bull, but the ranch bull was still there. Yeah, second up. And to kill the ranch bull with a bow was like, we knew it was going to be tough. Five days in, had that bull going. So we had a set up where, you know, we wanted to film. So Jody was on the camera. You were calling because, and I want to hear about your passion for calling,

but you're the best outcaller I've ever been around. So anyway, we thought, well, if we get this bull to come out of the timber, out into this meadow, God, that'd be perfect footage, right? Just in the sun, bright son. It's like gonna be epic. And so we set up here, Ranch Bowl comes in. He's all hyped up. But of course, like an old bull,

he's not gonna just walk into the open. We're just like, you know, you have in your head that man, this would be perfect if it worked like this. Those elk are like usually not interested in making good movies. No. So he stuck to the timber and I had this little window to shoot through.

thought I had a pretty good idea where he was, you know, where his shoulder was. And I thought, okay, I got it right behind the shoulder. Anyway, I hit high and back. It's like 35 yards. And long story short, we gave him a couple hours. I went in there. And we're sitting there thinking, okay, I think it's pretty good. So we'll get in there and, you know, see what happens. Do this blood trail. So we had lunch, waited a couple hours, went back in there, and you're following blood, and just like, it's not looking great. And then we heard a bugle and it sounded sort of, I'm like, ah, it's guessing.

There's no way that's a ranchable. The ranchable is dead up here. She's not going to be bugling. It sounded kind of weak. But then the second time he bugled, we were just like, oh, my God, that's the fucking ranchful. Bugling. Yeah.

And we're just like, what in the hell? So I just told you guys, I said, well, this is like my famous last word. Just let me go clean this mess. mess up. I'm good, you know, I'm good at cleaning up messes, but that's what happens if you make shitty shots, I guess. Well, taking something's life isn't sterile. No, it's, yeah, it's, I mean, it's going to be tough, you know, any, you got a wild animal, you got an arrow, and you're trying to kill that thing.

And it's over a thousand pound animal. It's, uh, sometimes it's going to be perfect. Sometimes you're going to pinwheel on. they're going to go 50 yards pile up. Love it. Sometimes not so much. That doesn't happen. No.

And it's just reality. I don't, humans are, we're weird people. We're weird creatures, man. We don't, I don't know why we don't always lay everything out on the table, but we don't. It's got to be some evolutionary advantage to that, right? Yeah. Just to be completely honest about everything. Mm-hmm.

But we're not. No. And it's not like we're evil people. No. We just don't divulge everything about everything. And you turn things into what you want, not reality. Exactly. Yeah.

And on that one, we were finally faced with the facts that Ranch Bowl is bugling. Yeah, he's not dead. He's not, definitely not dead. Hoyt archery has been my bow hunting sponsor since 2005. And personally, I really don't care what bow you shoot, what brand it is. I just hope that you have the same level of confidence in your equipment as I have in mine because I know if I get one opportunity with my Hoyt it's going to pay off so I took my boots off left you guys there and I'm like snuck up there and thank God got up to that skid road

and uh peeked out on the skid road and there he was standing there quartering away looking at me 25 yards I drop back lean over and by that time I was just like I just need to get an arrow in them you quartering ways good because you can be like a few feet either either way and you're getting something. You're getting, you know, guts to to long, quartering away. That's a big target. Something. And so I've got one in. I'm quartering away and it ended up catching up back up to him. I shot, I'm almost positive. Every arrow in my quiver, but got him killed, came back, classic footage. You guys had the camera, Jody had the camera set up recording. I was just like, you guys were like waiting for the report and I walk up. I remember my zippers down on my picture.

on my pants. Like this camera was just like just from my, it wasn't even my head. It was like from my bottom of my chest down. And I got no boots on. And I remember my zipper being down on this footage. I have the footage somewhere, but all I said was ranch bulls dead kids. And we were just like fucking just going crazy. So excited.

Finally did it. And it worked. And he's a giant. Yeah. And that's, I had at the time, you know, what do you think?

I was sitting just to myself, I was going, this ain't, this ain't good. No. The odds are you're not going to kill that bull or get them. I mean, I play odds. I mean, what's the most likely thing to happen? And that wasn't likely. But you did it. And that's impressive.

But yeah, no, to kill one specific bull in that place or any other place for the most part. That's hard. It's difficult. Very hard. There's a lot of things that go wrong. And they can be a lot of different places. I mean, you might never find them again. I mean, then that other big bull that we killed just a couple years ago,

nobody had ever seen it. No. So they can just disappear or show up or, yeah, I mean, so to earmark one bull in country like this where it's low fence, wild country, big country, coast range thick, I mean, the odds of like, oh, I want to kill this one, I don't even know what the odds would be at that. I mean, I'm a numbers guy, I would say maybe 10% to get an opportunity. What would you think?

Yeah, they're not high. No. They're not high because it's just a tough circumstance. And, you know, that's to pick one particular elk. But if you're going, okay, I'm going to shoot that one cow on you could spray painter. Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to kill that one. And to get the opportunity to do that, it's, it's a lot more difficult.

Yeah. To do that. Oh, yeah. So hard. Well, so ultimately you called in the Ranch Bull, got an arrow in him, was a shitty shop, ended up getting killed. But so how has, I mean, where did calling fit into your El Cunning repertoire? Were you, did you call from your first El Cunt or did it kind of evolved to be a passion? And I was thinking about that too, driving one of these deals.

You do a lot of thinking. I had my own podcast. I had my own podcast all the time. It's just in my head. Right. Sometimes I talk out loud and I look over and a trucker's looking at me like I'm nuts. But, hey, whatever, man. What's the podcast called?

Me. Yeah. Yeah. What was that? Stay in your lane. There used to be something on Cinemax like some late night shit. Skinna max. Skinnax.

I was just thinking it remind me of, God, I had the name of the show. But anyway, I think it'd be a good name for your show, whatever it was. but now I can't remember it. But anyway, go ahead. Yeah, so I don't know. I was thinking about that and I was like, how old was I think went to the Pacific Northwest Sportsman Show, right? Which one is that? In Eugene or Portland?

Okay, yeah. Is that what it's called? Pacific Northwest. Yeah, I believe it's a Pacific Northwest Swordsman show, yeah. Anyways, I go there. I couldn't drive, so I made my mom take me. And I think my little brother was with a stupid. He was eight years younger than I, so he was little.

And I was like, I just wanted to go. I mean, that stuff just, she knew it too. Yeah. And I was like, so I just started going around. Well, Wayne Carlton was there with man in his own booth. It's a legend. A long time ago. Cowboy hat on.

Yeah. Yeah. This is the 80s. Right. And, and, oh, man, he couldn't. I feel bad now, but, I mean, I didn't, I wouldn't leave. Yeah. I might have come get me and take me away.

He was really super nice, but I must have annoyed the shit out of him. But I wouldn't leave. Yeah. And I had a call, right? And then I got one of his calls. What were you doing? I just thought it was such a coolest thing I'd ever seen. Were you talking to him or just loitering?

I probably just standing there like a dumb ass. You are humping his leg like a dog. I was full on loitering. I'm sure he thought I was autistic or something. Yeah. And I don't know. Security was pretty laxed. Good for you.

Good on you. Yeah. Yeah. And so I, but anyways. Was he calling? He was. He'd call. And I thought that was a coolest thing. I mean, I was like, oh, my God, that's it. Yeah. I go, that is it.

So I had one of his calls. And I said, dude, I'd take it to school. Mm-hmm. I had one read. Mm-hmm. That's it. And I don't know. I got it.

Did you buy a tape to listen to, to know how to call? No. Because some people used to listen to those little cassette tapes like Larry Jones had some of those. I did have a, I did. I do remember Larry Jones. Just audio. Yeah, yeah. No, just a cassette tape.

You put it in your truck. I did have one of those at one time, but mostly it was just on memory, you know, and what you'd hear. And so, yeah, I started. And the calls weren't, I mean, some people have a really tough time at the read, right? And I didn't. It worked pretty good for me. I could make elk sounds like pretty quick. And then I practiced all.

I just practiced all the time. Yeah. And that's what I did. And I think in 1994, I went to the RMEF show. And when you remember when they used to move around different cities? Yeah. It was in Denver. Yeah.

So I flew there. Oh, nice. Just to do the world, for the world champion. Yeah. Because a former world champion had an archery shop in Clackham was there. Dieter. Okay.

Oh, Dieter. Cabot, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think that's how you say it. Yeah. And Dieter was a really good caller, right? Yeah. And he goes, dude, you're a really good.

color, you need to go to that. So I go, okay. So I went and I got, they got, but there were no divit. Now this changed dramatically, of course. It's been a long time. But it was just like dudes and chicks, men and women. That's it. No transgender.

It was binary. Oh, so you, I wonder if you could have been the non-binary champion. You might have tried back then. Yeah. You probably would have got beat up in Denver. Now it's liberal. Denver's very liberal. Not back then, not in that room.

Yeah, not. Yeah, that room, not so liberal. Yeah, there are a lot of cowboy hats there. You might not, you might don't want to run. I think we all can agree. No one likes a plumber's crack. My suggestion, Groove Life belts and longer shirts. But not only does Groove Life have belts,

they have silicone rings, watch bands, and wallets for everyday use. I've been using their belts for over a year now, and I can tell you they're easy to adjust and my crack is covered. Go to groovelife.com, backslash cam, and use code cam for 20% off your order. But anyways, yeah, I got fourth place. Did you? And believe or not, because he was sitting there, Wayne Carlton.

Really? Was he a judge or? No, he was just sitting in the audience. Okay. And being the Wayne Carlton stalker I was, I went and sat with him. And he looks, I'll not forget, he looks over him, he goes, he goes, you should have won that contest. And I'm like, okay, that's coming from that guy.

Yeah, that means something. That means something. You know, and the other guys, too, it's not like they were looking at me going, you can't wait. But he goes, he goes, that's really cool. He goes, you're making some cool sounds. I actually got deducted for doing a sound that everybody does now. And of course, the guys, I don't know why it is from the southeast United States. You get 100 guys and they name stuff.

You know, you ever notice that? Like what? They name things and procedures. Yeah. And stuff. Like, they just have unique. names for stuff. And they had it with elk calling? Well, look at the, look at the Primo stuff, right? Which were, I mean, they were innovative calls.

Yeah. They really were. I very seldom use anything but a read. But I mean, he got hot lips, Hoochie Mama. Those are the kind of names I'm talking about. It's always those guys coming up with them. Don't, don't be talking shit about my cowgirl. You know you love that call. Oh, yeah. My new one is fucking sweet, dude. Is it better? Can't be worse. It kind of sounds like a fawn in distress. So I always think a bear or a coyote or something's going to run in. Hey, whatever. A lion?

Yeah. Hey, I got tags for everything. I know. Yeah. That was an amazing lion hunt this year. If you just call for an elk, you're kind of limiting yourself. I call for everything. Deer, bear, lion, elk.

You never know what's coming in. That's tough logic to argue with. Can't beat that. Yeah, no. So anyways, I started calling. I just, I enjoyed calling, you know, and like I said, I could, I could mimic the sounds. Well, I thought it was pretty good. Yeah.

Other people thought it was good, too. So what, what did you do that you got deducted for? I think they started calling the lip ball, right? And I learned it from a guy who was kind of a pseudo-inventor type guy. And I guess his background was in like music and stuff, right? Well, he's making these kind of trying to make these elk calls and they were a thumb, push button elk call. Mm-hmm.

So I think there's something similar new on the market with that right now, as a matter of fact. But he was making that. And I thought, and he could make them sound pretty good. They weren't easy to use. But he would do this sound. And I'm like, I go, what are you doing? He goes, well, I'm pursing my lips like a trumpet player. I'm like, oh.

With a read? Yeah. Okay. So you purse your lips and it's this buzzy deal. And I remember looking at my scorecard. I did that. And they call it the lip ball. And now it's pretty standard.

A lot of people do it. Kind of mimics that screaming part of it. Yeah. You know, and there's more than just a high-pitched deal. Yeah. They got some. They get to the scream. Oh, yeah.

Those big bulls. Well, it's a way, you know, to mimic that, that, you know, sounds pretty decent. And so I did that. I remember looking at two of my scorecards and the judges wrote too buzzy and that stuff. I'm like, oh. Yeah. That was intentional. It wasn't very many years.

later, if you did it, you know, you had to do it, basically make that kind of sound in some fashion or another. Yeah. Or, you know, you probably weren't making enough sounds. Yeah, because, I mean, if you just do the three-note bugle, you're not going to, you're not setting yourself apart. So they want a variety of sounds because you have to cow call too, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cal-calf and then bowl sounds. And they make a lot of sounds. I remember the first time. And I think it was in Vegas. I think in 2014. I met up with you there. And I hadn't been called.

That's the next time, right? I go, I need to get back into this call and stuff. Yeah. And give it another shot, right? You get busy with life and careers. Is that when we did that run? Did we do a run there? We didn't do a run.

Oh, we didn't. Not that time. But I had a bunch of keep hammering gear. Yeah. I remember doing a run there. I was there for the Rocky Mountain Elk show, but maybe you just didn't go. But anyway, so how'd that one go?

Got fourth again. Yeah. But now there were men, you know, professional division and men's and this and that. And so I didn't win the state. Oregon had won, state, Oregon and state one. And I believe I won that one time. It was in Salem. But anyway, I wasn't consistent.

And it's not like I thought, oh, I'm going on these. And I should have been. Yeah. Like that wasn't your goal every day to be. It was not my goal. World Outcoming champion. No. And, you know, you probably need to set that goal.

because there are some really outstanding colors out there. Yeah. I mean, I remember listening to Corey Jacobson for the first time and I was like, well, in 94, his dad, Rocky Jacobson, won it. And I remember listening to him going, oh, boy. Yeah. I go, next level. That's the next level.

I just listen to those sounds he could make. I was like, okay, yeah, I can't do that. I'm not that good. Yeah. And it was fantastic. And Corey says, boy, they can make sounds. Yeah. Good sounds.

to me, I mean, that's our human interpretation of it. Right. Hard to know what the elk are thinking. Yeah, you know. But if they're convinced, I've seen elk be convinced on shitty calls, too, is a crazy thing. You know, so it's like, you know, we put our spin on it and what sounds good to us, but who knows what the hell these bulls are thinking. Yeah, you know, and I think it's probably more instinctual for them, I imagine. I mean, I've always thought.

It's like if somebody knocks on the door, my dogs are going ape shit. Right. Every time. So it's like you make that sound and animal are, they're just, they're just going to respond. They just, yeah. It's just what they do. It's like, oh, this sound, I do this. And maybe not thinking about it too much.

It's just a reaction. Right. Yeah. No, I agree. But I always equate it back to, and I've heard you say it 100 times. People are like, well, you don't got to, you don't got to be a good color to kill elk. No, you don't actually. Yeah.

There are times and those elk in the right situation and the right. place at the right time. You could go in there and be a really crappy collar, make enough of an elk sound and a bull come in any color. And I'm sure it's happened. Yeah. But it doesn't happen a lot. Right. And I always equate it back to like turkey calling or duck calling or goose calling, right? Now they got tiny little brains, tiny, except everybody's fascinated with making the perfect duck call or the perfect goose call. Why? They have contest. Yeah. Why is that? They're stupid animals. They're stupid birds with that tiny little pea-sized brain. Right.

Except we try to mimic them as closely as possible. So I'm thinking it must matter to some degree. Yeah. And elk have if your brain size, much bigger brain. Much bigger. Than a bird. Yeah. I mean, I think sometimes if they're super wound up, maybe not.

But how often are they super wound up? Usually they're not fired up. Usually is somewhere in between. Right. And so maybe that quality of call makes a difference right there. Because if they're just seeing red, I'm not sure it matters. Yeah. You throw a cow call, calf call, half-ass bugle.

If a bulls... Your call. My fucking cowgirls work on that one. And get ready. Yeah. But other than times like that, it's like I think your calls are so authentic sounding to me. I think it makes a difference. But I want to hear you do a call. let's do something.

Okay. Let's give the people what they want. I got to leave now. So tell me about what calls. These are Phelps calls. So Jason Phelps. I've known Jason. I met him a long, long time ago.

So I met a few calling contests. I'm a really nice guy. Like I'm not close friends, but I've met him. I know him. We've hung up a really nice guy. I'm happy for a success. I think he's, you know, He sold his business, kicking ass.

I think he's part of meat eater now or something. Yeah, I think they bought the call company. But yeah, he still, I believe he still runs it and stuff. But anyways, really nice guy, and he really made some fantastic calls. He actually at one point made a couple competition calls for me. Because the stretches and kinds of latex and the tighter stretches and thicknesses of latex, like, I rarely use a single read call. I push too hard on it.

I'll break it. Yeah. And I just use a lot of tongue. With your tongue? Yeah, I use a lot of tongue pressure. And so usually a triple read call I would. But at Limitsia and the range of sounds you can make, but it was durable. And it made the lower end stuff easier to do.

The growls? Yeah. And cow calls and cath calls. Okay. Because they're on a lower, they're not that high pitch stuff. You know, they kind of start out that way. Yeah. But there's a low part to that.

And a drop off. And that, for me anyways, That's way harder to do with the light latex, especially if it's tight stretch, light, single read type deal. It's just easier for me to do. And he messed with the sizes of the frames, you know, because some people have, everybody's got a different palette. Right. The mine's narrow. And another reason I used Wayne Carlin's calls for so long is they were an aluminum horseshoe frame.

Mm-hmm. And so I could bend it. Right. So I bent it. And I'd get a really tight seal up in there, which is critical. Yeah. And so a fiberglass, something like that would, that didn't work for me. So I could bend it, but that bending also changed the stretch of the latex.

So I learned on really like a loose kind of latex because I'd bend my, and I'd trim my calls because they didn't fit the skirt would be big. And so I'd have to trim that with scissors so I got a really good fit. Anyways, it's all nerd-out on call stuff. But Jason, he, God, he makes good calls. And he makes a medium frame. It's narrow. It fits me better.

I don't have to ban anything. The pallet deal, I don't need that. Some people kind of, that helps them get a metal there. It is metal, yeah. It makes a, it kind of helps people get that seal up in there. I never had a problem doing that. I mean, but you have to have it and that kind of helps. So, but they make good.

This is call, of course, probably used for two years now. And after season, I put them in there and they don't come out until the next season. But it's kind of grody. But anyway, but that low part, that's hard. That's hard to do with the other deal. That sounds good. So, yeah. So, I mean, and the rest of the range of all those other sounds, that's just trying to, you know, mimic what they do.

And they make, there are the high notes that I think a lot people make really realistic high notes. I mean, they sound good at a lot of calls. The chuckling, that's hard for some people. That your sound so realistic to me. The chuckles are, that's a game. I mean, there's a certain, I can tell a hunter or a bull based on that. The high stuff, I can't fucking tell the difference. I know.

But you get to that low and I'm like, immediately, Hunter. Yeah. But with you, it's fucking, it's tough, dude. The chuckles are, that kind of sets people apart. Is being able to, I don't know exactly how I mimic those chuckles, but it sounds like they sound to me. Yeah. So I'm like, okay. And there's, you know, there's some people like,

Derek Durham, you know, multi-time world champion in the men's division. Yes, I took fourth place to him twice. Then I quit going, but he's got a chuckle. It's just fantastic. And there's just something to that, but I'm with you. Yeah, you can, people will do a chuckle and they can't get the right tones and stuff out of that and the cadence sometimes. And it just, it's, with an external call, it's really super hard to do.

Usually the cadence is too quick. Hunters do it too quick is what I notice. Yeah, you hear that height, you're like, that's a bull, that's a bull. And then you hear that. Yeah, then you're like, oh, God, freaking dip sheds. That's a dude. Yeah. And you're like, there's been a couple times that I have been fooled a little bit.

I wasn't sure. I'm always doubtful, though. Yeah. I'm never. I'm like, oh, that's a bull. That's like the whole smoked him, killed him, dead. Yeah, perfect shot. Perfect shot.

Yeah. There's a lot of animals that never. get recovered that were a perfect shot or you know a long time that part not a perfect shot the rule is you got to touch him until you touch it it's not a perfect shot even like this year we had some bowls going but then i heard i heard the bugle cross away and there's a bugle and i'm like uh and then 30 seconds later another bugle same spot i'm like fucking hunters you know it's just people get so amped up when they do call. Yeah.

You know, you should call and then nothing for a while. Agreed. And then, but people, like, once they start calling, it's an onslaught. And because people just want to call because they figure that the more you call, the quicker this bull is going to get in, the quicker I'm going to achieve my dream and get this thing on the ground. So it's like, it's almost like, this isn't going to happen until I call. And so the more I call, I'm increasing, or just excited or something.

But I can tell a hunter because too much calling. Yeah, sometimes, absolutely. I mean, I think it's an urgency, right? You're like there, you're set up. Okay, here we go. I'm doing this thing. I'm calling. And then nothing.

Yeah. And that's no dopamine hit. Yeah. That's nothing. No. And so your urgency, like, oh, he's got it. And so they call more. And there are times to call a lot.

But you know me. I'm pretty reserved with my calling. Yeah. I mean, I remember a lot of times we were hunting. And you're like, yeah, dude, let's go. I'm like, okay. I'm like, give her a whistle. Yeah.

Let's try it. And because I'm just reserved. And down there, too, it powers a lot of times. Those bulls aren't that vocal. No. I mean, Roosevelt's in general. I think that's kind of a rule of thumb. As people know, they're not quite as vocal as Rockies.

Yeah. There's times when they do are going ape shit, but it's not, it's not super often for sure. No, I haven't heard them, you know, 13 years have been going down there. and I haven't heard it just, I mean, they just, it's not something like a New Mexico, Arizona. No. Or stuff, you know, I've, and other places where, I mean, there's times back to the call calling deal. I mean, if you get into enough elk and enough bull's bugling and all that stuff, it doesn't matter if you beagle or not. They don't care.

Yeah. You're just one more bull. Yeah. Well, that's where like, I mean, I know you love to call and you know me. I just love to kill. You want to stock them? Well, I don't care, but I just want to kill. And I'm just like, hey, whatever I got to do.

And most, I mean, not most of time, but I don't know how many, I'm not sure. We've cut a lot of bowls together. You've stocked more than we've called in. Yeah. Now, calling's been involved, like that one we hit up, you know, middle of the day. Yeah. Time was ticking. And I could tell you were like, you were urgent.

You were like, dude, we have, we can't just, we got to do something. We're going out and we're, you know. Yeah. Got a response. And left. and left and he came back and stalked down there and then I killed him with no calling. But we located them with your middle of the day bugle. Yeah.

Just. But yeah, I mean, I'm just like, yeah, calling him in is awesome. I mean, who doesn't want to see a big bull coming in, just slobbering and, you know, going ape shit? But I'm just like, if, you know, if I can sneak in there and they'll never know I'm there, that works too. Yeah. And there's only a little bit of the year where it's an effect.

thing. Yeah. Right. I mean, there's, there's just only so many times. And at times, and it's done correctly, it can be extreme, effective as anything else. Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. And so the odds are in your favor. But then again, I have mixed feelings about it. I mean, I don't, I don't always want, because they're staring at it. Once you call, you just, they know. They're dialed in. They're dialed. They know exactly where you're at. Right where that sound came from. And you just put them on alert. Yeah. It's just like if there's something, if you're in your house and something and one of the rooms, you know what room that was. You know exactly what, and probably what fell.

And what fell, right. So the bulls are no different. They hear something. They know exactly where that came from. From a long way. So they're walking in going right there. And then when you move or they see a human silhouette, yeah, game over. Yeah.

So, yeah, I'm always hesitant about drawing attention to where I am. Now, if you have a caller, like if you're there and I can be off on the side or something like that, then that's obviously ideal. There's a theory called the triangle theory where you got the bull coming in, then you're making a triangle between the collar and the shooter. You pull the bull right past a shooter to the collar, and then you get the broadside shot. Yeah.

Looks good on paper. A lot of times those bulls want to circle downwind, and so if you haven't taken that into account. But when you do the cow and the calf call, so do you have, is there a lot of, in there or are you just mixing them up? Just different cow and calf sounds. Yeah.

The only time I have a set sequence during the calling contest, you know, and I haven't been to those in years, but whatever. During those, because I saw how good those guys were and how polished they were, I would practice for those. I went, whoa, these guys are good, and they're consistent and they're polished. And they had routines.

Yeah. And because a minute on stage goes by pretty freaking quick, it seems like. So I was like, oh boy, I need to step it up and I need to have a routine and to cover X, X and Y, I need to make those sounds. Out hunting, I mean, do I specifically think about a call? Like sometimes just like doing a calf call because calf calls are pretty distinctive. You know, they're only, how old are they?

Four months old. Yeah. When we're there in September hunting, calves are four months old. They've got a unique call. They can be super vocal. Well, like those three calves we had run in. Yeah. Yeah.

Here they come. All three on a dead. run. Yeah. And they have, they have a real, so I'll think about just doing a calf call sometimes, but mostly it's just, it's mixed in. A variety. A variety. You want to sound like a herd. Yeah, or, you know, because that's what they sound like. But back to your point real quick about, you know, calling too much and stuff. Yeah, that's, that's a strategy. I mean, that's something I do a lot. It's like, okay, you hear a guy, you hear a call, you hear a call, you hear a call, and you're like, the cadence of that and the timing of that. So I go, what do elk do? A lot of times. I go, what do elk do? A lot of

times, you know, you hear a bull and we spend the next 15 minutes arguing or discussing or doing that, trying to figure out where it was. Well, he shut up for 15 minutes or we didn't hear him. Right. And so it's like, well, I don't I call and shut up for 15 minutes. Yeah. That's what, that's where humans, they don't do that because it's not, you know, a bull, it's natural for them. Yeah. We're mimicking something that's not natural. And we want it to happen now. Yeah. So we're, that's where we're way, way over-anxious on. So just like a single cow call or, or, just a quick chuckle or something and then nothing. That's what it's hot.

I mean, when I do a cow call, it's usually three. And I don't know why. I know. Because it's like two is like, maybe just need one more out there. I think we think the last one's going to be the best one. I don't know. But I think the key, if you could just do one and shut the fuck up, that would be. It's hard. Dude, you know what I do?

I set a timer on my phone. If I'm playing that game, right? If I'm playing that slow game and not knowing and not stuff. I mean, I call and then I set a timer because to teach myself, and I did it before, it was hard, but to teach myself, what's sitting there for 10 minutes, you know, thinking about stuff and not hearing what you want to hear is really looks like. Yeah. And you're like, it seems like two hours. Oh, dude, it's been six minutes. Yeah.

But it's like, yeah. So it's that patient or just doing something a little bit different. Yeah. Like I say, there's, I'm sure there's guys that do it. There's no doubt. There's people that do everything. But I don't know how many times, you know, you know. you hear an elk call, a cow call or something.

And then nothing for a while. You're just like, well, you know, you're having the big, what, that I think, I don't know, maybe. Yeah. Oh, should we walk down or I don't know, which way the wind blowing? And all this stuff. And it's like, well, why don't I do that? Yeah. Because they're calling for a reason.

Yeah. They're trying to communicate. They're not just making calls just to hear themselves. No. No, they, the communication by that, maybe the bulls were bugling this morning. Yeah. Still, they were, they were squaking and doing this stuff when we were bear hunting. And I was just like, they're still.

Yeah. Still going a little bit. Not, you know, nothing raging. Right. But, yeah, there's nothing that I do that's like, I don't have a routine or specific thing. But I do specifically try different stuff on Bulls, right? Like sometimes I'll just grunt. Sometimes I'll just, no chuckles, and I'll just scream.

Is it just by feel or just by listening to them or just taking a chance? It's throwing something against the wall, see if it sticks. Yeah, that's all it is. And so do you bugle with that one, Sam Reed? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's hear that fucker. It's going to kind of, no tube, but tubes make a big difference, by the way. They do, they do.

But I think the audio is going to pick it up okay in this room. Yeah, I don't, I think there's a mic under here. Yeah. There's a mic on my sock. But I'll do, I'll just do some grunts without a tube. Okay. Yeah. So those last few grunts where he had the little squeal in with the grunt, that's, that's so good.

Yeah. They do both. Yeah. Like a boy, you'll hear that. Yeah. They're all mixing it all in together, right? But you're hearing different sounds. Yeah.

And they do it. I mean, I just rewatched that video they had of that five by six we called in right after those three little calves come running in. Yeah. And we kind of scrambled for a setup. And I called it him and he came and he did that exact thing. You know, he had a bugle and then he did that chuckle and there was a high-pitched part of that chuckle. There's one, there's a note in there on just one of the chuckles. And then it tails off.

I don't know. I kind of notice little things like that. And I go, huh, that's pretty cool. Try to implement that. Yeah. But I think it's doing, I think it's just a variety, you know, just trying a variety of things. See what happens. You know, if they're just barely, oh, well, you might want to not go charging in with

a stick, screaming and this and that. Maybe, I mean, might work. A lot of times they're like from the bed bugle in a little bit. And you can tell that it's just like a, a. quieter, more subdued bugle. And then you can tell when they're freaking amped up too and just screaming. And sometimes, you know, I did say hunters call too much because it's too frequent. But on the same token, I've heard bulls nonstop, you know, just going crazy themselves.

And if there's, yeah, to that point, there's a lot, you watch a lot of videos. And of course, there's now there's tons of footage of people calling an elk and this and that. And, you know, pretty standard to have a caller, a pint, you're trying to call an elk. You know, keep them focused on that. Because like we talked about, that bull at a couple hundred yards know exactly where you're at. And when he gets to that point, he can see that. He knows exactly what should be standing there. But if the caller's back behind, well, he may see something, but you'll see it.

You know, when you watch those, I watch the elk. Yeah. When those guys are calling and calling elk in. And there is a certain amount of calling that is like kind of imperative. Because that bull will start doing this, right? Yeah. Start looking around. And then all of a sudden, pooh, they'll get him.

You got to keep coming. So they keep after it and they keep, and they keep that bull kind of focused. Because he may call up, block on something, didn't like it or something's up. You know, hear the cockle. Yeah. But he looks back there, that's scary.

But that's a cow. That's scary. That's a cow. So there is, I mean, that amount of calling is sometimes required. Because if you, they may get bored. They may not like the situation or they go, I don't hear.

I can't, they already know you've got to win. they know that part they know one sense is missing right yeah and that always puts them on high alert too i think what uh but yeah they all it's not like they're freaking you know uh what what what would i want to say i mean they're animals so it's not like they're uh super intellectual right so they can think well i see something there but then like you said you make the call in there and then they're back on the collar and they'll like kind of weigh out uh because they're big aggressive animals if they see some guy on their knees and they it's a little bit out of place but it's something small right and they're a thousand pounds and then they hear this call right past the thing

they're not sure about you can distract them again and and give them just that encouragement and you know fuck that guy sitting that kneeling down that you're not sure about you're on a mission Because if they're coming in and they're charging in, they're on a mission to go and solve this problem. Whether it's another bull or if it's a cow, they're going to go and figure out, why are you in my area or I'm taking this cow back to my herd? And they could like ignore what could be a red flag by whatever,

but if you're looking small and you're not moving a lot, yeah, they can be, their emotions can get the best of. Yeah, and they can be, they can be persuaded by those calls, you know, and in certain cases, like I see, I've seen a ton of, you know, content on people. And I've noticed, I've noticed that a ton. I'm like, if they, if those guys weren't calling as much as they were, I think that bull would have left. Yeah. Yeah. You had to keep them coming. But they kept on them. But that's situational. And if you're the caller and you can't see this happening, it's really hard to judge them. Well, but then also there's that fine line where sometimes you have to separate yourself from, from the hunter and you have to go over the hill. Yeah. You know, because if the bull comes in and he knows you should be able to see down there and doesn't see anything, you should be able to see whatever's calling. But all of a sudden, you could go down into the cut or you could go whatever,

where it's just out of sight, then that could be enough to pull. But then you're not being on, you can't read the bull because you can't see him because you're over the hill. So yeah, it's, you know. That's the hardest part is if you're back born up calling and you can't see them or kind of judge him when they're from. on the inside. But yeah, using those, using the terrain is probably one of your biggest advantages. Yeah. Because if it's wide open, like that bullword, he stopped, that five by six. He stopped

as soon as he got to. Should be able to see something. He stopped as soon as he had to. Yeah. Hmm. Interesting. But if no, there was a hill there. Right. Or a little draw. Yeah. Well, now, an outcount sound coming from that draw, to me, that that's perfectly natural to them that they couldn't see a cow down in there. I mean, they know that. Yeah. They know they got to get to the lip of that hill. They know they got to look over.

Yeah. Just like they know, they got to go to a creek to drink out of it. Yeah. I mean, it's instinctive stuff. So, yeah, using that kind of terrain and those setups is, it's one of your most important tools. Yeah. Because they will, they will stop when they can and know exactly what they're looking at and what

they should be seeing. You know, is there, is there, and there's a spectrum. of the behaviors that happen besides that. There's the ones that don't care and run in to a duck call and get shot, sure. Or there's the ones that don't even come in. I mean, it's, yeah, it's an interesting little, little game and dance. But, yeah, not been able to see the elk. Yeah.

It's hard. But I figured you always start out that way, too. You hardly ever seen when you start out either. Right. So, you know, I just go with my guts, whatever sounds right. And we had a hard time this year. down there. It's crazy. We got we got a lot of country to hunt, but

there is a fence line. And those elk were just on the wrong side of, I mean, of all the area we could hunt, that one property line for whatever reason, those bulls, just too many acorns. I don't know what it was. They just had the feed over there and there's nothing we could do to get, I mean, we had a big bull we were going to trying to get or actually two good bulls that we wanted to get over on our side and just never happened pretty frustrating did that bull ever come because i went took off to arizona and you were

there's two other hunters down there when you were there right or was a three there were three total plus you yeah so yeah we were yeah well then you like you said you wanted that to hunt that big bull yeah big old mature bull and he just the circumstances dictate like say there are boundaries. Yeah. It's not unlimited. No. And that was a hard line boundary right there. And it always has been. I know. And, you know, and it's a big bull. He's, there's, dude, I was glass and oak there last night. Yeah. They're still out there. But they're, they also moved down. Mm-hmm. To where they're accessible now. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They've been down in there too. Yeah. So, um, it's over now. And plus, like say there was a bunch of bulls that

that I didn't see all archery season that I was glassing the last day and a half and this is like, I don't think, I haven't seen that one. Yeah. I don't know where they came from. I was like, whatever. They showed up late this year. Like we were saying, it's a good thing that the season was later. Yeah.

Then it's ever been that I remember. I've never had to go into October. No. I mean, and we needed pretty much every day to get, you know, I killed that bull last day of September down there. Right. And, yeah, we had drama. I don't think the drama part is not going to make the film

just because we didn't even get it. But I would say here is, you know, had a good opportunity at a good bull. And I think it was a quiet morning. And, you know, it was just kind of a, you learn lessons all the time. You never get this shit figured out, right? So I had a shot at this, at a nice bull.

Me and Tanner were all together. quiet morning maybe some popping and things he kind of knew something was in our direction waited him out he's by himself finally I got a shot and everything felt good and I hit high on him and you know one of these things were I've seen a lot of people not a lot but I've seen people make shitty shots and everybody turns it into I think he's going to be okay you know I I don't think that's going to kill him. It's hard to know. You don't really ever know.

But on this one, I knew I hit him, had blood, and it just was not a fatal hit type acting bull because we had blood for probably 50 yards. And then the last blood I found was 300 yards straight up the hill. I mean, a freaking Steve Hill. And I found one drop up there. And we're like, well, it's not acting. like a hard hit bull, right?

And, but you never know. You'd never truly know. I mean, spent, you know, a few days trying to resolve that issue, could never find him again. And you ended up going to Arizona, killing a bull, coming back. And as fate would have it, you know, you spotted that herd up at the very, we were hunting down where that big six point was, right? We were trying to kill. And then you spotted elk, you know, I guess it's at least a mile away, but up on the,

high unit up there by the rock pit. Right. And we're like, well, that one, you know, you could see there's a handful of elk and then one really big light colored one. Yeah. And it's got to be a bull to the left. Just he looked bigger and he was lighter color. Anyway, long story short, you know, the film will show up.

But we got up there, ended up, sorry to say, stalked him. So. I know, man. So much for my calling. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, we took what the opportunity gave us and made this big stock down through the unit, popped up over in a perfect position for a stock, popped up over on the logging road. And then I just had to work around like this cut bank.

And then it was, you know, bow shot, long bow shot, but felt good about it and smoked this bull, right? Now you got him. And breaking him down. And I saw this mark. And it didn't look like a fresh wound. Well, you saw it on his hide, you know? Yeah. And I looked at it and you said, hey, look at that.

And I just instantly dismissed it because it didn't look like a fresh. It didn't. Look, I can, he got poked by another bowl or a stick or something. Something. Somewhere. It's like, huh. I mean, these arrows that I shoot, you know, isn't expandable. It opens 2.75 inches a cut.

That's pretty wide. That's a big hole, right? So when I saw this mark on him, and same with you, I'm just like, oh, man, it's in the spot, I think. You know, we think that the bull dropped on my shot because he was kind of dialed. in on us. So we think he dropped normally those bulls don't jump the string. But on a quiet morning hearing something being being alerted and then we think he dropped a little bit because I, you know, I know when I have, you know, of course I can make mistakes like anybody, but I know when the shot felt good and the shot felt good. And Tanner had had it on film and it looked like

perfect technique, you know, didn't look like a whatever on that. So anyway, we get to this bull and we're like, I was thinking, man, that mark is, it's in the right spot, but it doesn't look fresh, right? See, I didn't think it was that high. After you'd shot, I had my glasses on that. Yeah. And even though we unfortunately didn't catch that exact second of him running through that opening, I mean, like I told you when he said, what do you?

I could do. It's high. Yeah. It looked high to me. But it didn't look as high as that wound, which didn't look fresh either. So like I'd say, I'd just dismiss it and go, and I can't be. Yeah. There's no way.

But hey. Turns out. Turns out. Turns out. We got to breaking that bull down and my freaking broadhead was stuck, you know. And it's backbone. I know in the spine. And it's like it, he was 100% fine, had a herd.

Had a herd. Doing bull stuff. No, it didn't look like a friend. And so this was like two and a half weeks later, I think, from when I hit it. And he was 100% barely even a mark on his hide, but had an arrow. I had an arrow broke off, but it was stuck in his spying. I can't even explain it. And he was good to go.

I never seen nothing like it. Yeah. So I don't think we even fit. You know, we were just kind of so caught up in the moment about breaking this bull down and getting the meat, taking care of. And, you know, I made a good shot. And he went, you know, whatever, he went 100, maybe a little over 100 yards and died quickly. So we were all good, kind of not even really thinking about, oh, let's, let's check out this. And then we're cutting.

and it's like there's a sliver of carbon. Of arrow. And it's like, yeah, it's like, well, no, I hit him.

Perfect. Here, why would their carbon be up here by his spine? Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't missing, dude. It wasn't doing this.

I was not connecting. And then there's like, wait a second. And freaking broadhead's still in there. Crazy. I mean, it's, you know,

there's a couple different ways you could look at this. Like, should you not share stories? that because you don't want people thinking that a bow is an inferior weapon because on the shot that I killed him with, he was, I mean, dead quick in seconds, right? I can't believe he was. I mean, I was, what, a couple hundred yards away? Yeah. And as soon as you shot, I started calling, but oh, and I saw the exit, right? It looked perfect. And I saw the blood. I saw the exit with my own eyes and I go, okay, that's a really good shot. I can't believe he

walked as far as he did. I know, I know. It was, they're just so hardy. Yeah. And it's probably a testament to the time of year. The rut. Hearing those calls, I mean, it'd stop and he'd look. Yeah, yeah. I don't know what. But he was, it was an excellent shot. And I was surprised he made it that far.

But I, yeah. But yeah. So it's like, I don't want people to think that, you know, a perf, an arrow won't do it. But also, it's reassuring in that it's different than what with a rifle. With a rifle, it's causing so much damage. I don't know if a. bull could recover from that and be healthy. Right.

Whereas an arrow, it's clean. It's a hemorrhage, which will seal up and heal. It's not a rifle shot blowing shit apart, which you may or may not recover. Hopefully you do. You know, nobody wants to lose an animal. But with this arrow, it's a pretty good, it makes me feel good that, yeah, a perfect shot is going to kill it. You're going to recover it.

A less than perfect shot, maybe the animal is going to survive. What I always say is if the animal is going to die, I'm going to find it. You know, I'm not losing it. If it's going to die, I will find it. If it's not going to die, who knows, right? Right. Right. This bull obviously was not going to die.

We didn't get him until two weeks later and got him killed. But it's like you could say, it's how you look at it. You could say, well, an arrow is ineffective. It's like, well, no, because I've seen them pile up in 50 yards. So it's not ineffective. It just has to be well placed. And if it's not, maybe that animal, if it's not through the guts or through an organ, chances are it's going to heal up and be fine with an arrow. There's a chance.

And this was a perfect testament to that. I don't know. Yeah, maybe we could get someone to test that out. Shoot yourself with a gun in your hand. And then with the other hand, we'll shoot you with an arrow. Right. See which one's worse. I'll go with the arrow.

I'd go with the arrow too. Because you know it's going to heal up where a gun is just going to blow shit apart. And I'm not trying to make it archery versus rifle type thing. Because hunting is imperfect. It is. Killing, anytime you're trying to kill an animal, sometimes it's going to be textbook. Sometimes it's going to be a shit show. A lot of times it's going to be somewhere in between.

Right. And yeah. Yeah. And I don't, like I say, I don't know the, there's a lot of factors. I don't know the course action. People are like, you know, it's not a people's business, whether I shot and lost one or made a bad hit and this and that. you're like, essentially it's like, yeah, you're right. You know, you are right.

It is none of people's business. And it happens, you know, and it is kind of a personal thing. But if you're going to talk about the stories and the stuff, you might want to include what's real. Yeah. I say lay most of it out on the table and let people figure it out. Yeah. Let them decide because that pisses me off.

And we're kind of in that state of media right now where you don't know what's true. They're dancing around the. edge is the truth, they're massaging words, they're playing word games. And it's like, that pisses people off. Yeah. Yeah. Just be honest. When they find out that they're being jerked off like that, they, it pisses me off. Yeah. And but but this, this is a little different. I mean, this is a personal endeavor. This is hunting. This isn't. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's worth talking about. I don't, I'll tell people about the ones like, and I won't go out and tell everybody, oh, yeah, I lost one shot, my life.

But if we're talking about it, I'll tell them this is what happened. Right. Because it's real. Yeah. And I never feel ashamed about talking about what is real, whether it benefits me or not. No, I know. I mean, that's the only, I've just been thinking about that ever since, we weren't filming all that because we were, we were done filming.

We're breaking the bull down. You know what I mean? Yeah, way to go, Tanner. And maybe it's like, you know, it's so hard to make these films. and it's like, you know, telling this story, how is this story going to go? How much time do we have? Because it's like, now if you're talking about,

well, I hit this bull two and a half weeks before, there's like, well, how does this fit in the story? So it was just like, whatever. All I'm just saying is like it, it won't make, we weren't filming it and we never even talked about it on film. It's just kind of like, got the kill, Bulls dead. It wasn't the point of the story. It wasn't the point.

But what I feel good about, is that that part of the story is resolved because it's like you never really know. You can say it was a superficial wound, bull's going to be okay. But until you see that bull okay, who knows? You don't really know. And so I just feel good that we got that chapter closed. Yes, something happened on the first shot. Maybe I fucked up.

Maybe the bull dropped. Whatever the case, all I know is that chapter's closed because we've got the same bull killed. Yeah, and the odds of that, like I say, that was never the purpose. It was never in our minds. I mean, about the amount of blood you mentioned, it's like we had blood, that wasn't good blood. No. I mean, there was not shit.

No, no, no, no. And so that's. And so, but it was like, and then that last spot you found it. It was like, okay, that's a different ballgame. That's an elk that's going a long ways. Yeah. And my, my approach to that is if I shoot something and I think it's going to die, that's probably going to be, that's it.

Yeah. I mean, I'm done. But, and I'm not trying to be, you know, turning a gut shot into like, I think he's going to be okay just so I can keep hunting. I'm pretty honest about, sure. I feel if I look at everything,

if I look at if I got the arrow, if I got the blood, and if I can see what the animal's doing, I can make a pretty accurate assessment on, is this fatal or not? Right. And on that one, we all decided not fatal.

And of course it wasn't until I shot him again. But it's like, I think that's part of hunting. You got to be able to look objectively. If you got an arrow and an animal, there's no law that says you got to quit hunting and that's your animal but ethically you know and there's no law you got to tell people about it either i mean it's a personal thing and are some people gonna because of their ego or whatever you try to hide it and this that or

maybe they have something tied maybe they got skin in a game yeah and a bad shot and that being revealed is bad for them man there's lots of circumstances who knows whatever but like you said the most important thing is like trying to best you can to determine and is that a fatal hit or not. Yeah, that's all I care about. If we, you know, you punch one through his guts and we can prove that, it's like, that's a fatal hit. It's going to die. It's going to die.

Nothing survives a shot to the guts. I mean, it takes a long time. Yeah. But things don't survive that. People don't survive that. Right. It's just, it's a devastating, crappy shot. And like I said, it hurts people.

It hurts, you know, at different levels. It hurts your ego. It kind of makes, you know, it drags down what does other. Otherwise, you know, a passion just makes you question all of it going, God damn. I know. Especially when it means as much to you as like this means to us. It's like El hunting is everything. El cunning, Oregon is everything. And like having so much respect for these animals and working so hard and then thinking you screwed up, there's nothing hurts worse. No.

I don't, you don't shoot your bow that much. I don't shoot my bow that much. Make your arrows and broadheads and all this stuff. We don't do that to go make a shitty shot. No, no. Do it to be perfect. Do it. To make, to edge your, head your bet that you won't make that shot.

But the fact is, it's reality. And I don't mind talking about real stuff. And I wish, if anything, if it encourages people, if they learn something from it, like right there, we learned that lesson. I looked at that shot and we never knew. No, I was there after you left, you know, and when you got back, and I kept looking. Yeah. I mean, I took a few little walks and I kept, you'll see birds eventually maybe or something.

Yeah. And I kept paying attention. And I never thought nothing. And I'm like, But if people can learn and just don't let that overshadow everything, you know. I mean, it's an imperfect world. We're imperfect beings. You're not going to be for it.

Just try it really hard. Yeah. Now, if you're irresponsible, that's different. Yeah. It's not the same thing. No, it's not the same. And if irresponsible people want to just chalk it up, well, it's just because we're not perfect. Well, that's not right.

Yeah. It's your irresponsible. I heard a story on now. I mean, I'm not even going to turn it into myself. Whatever. It's like, you know, I'm just trying to be honest about me. I can't always speak for anybody else. Yeah.

So, never mind that part. Yeah. I mean, there's no rule, like you said, that you got to tell anybody or even got to quit hunting, you know, if you don't find an animal or something. There's nothing, but it's maybe, you know, it's maybe, you know, if someone feels comfortable talking about it and other people can learn from that and go, okay, maybe if it's this shot, maybe I should think this or if it's that, I should think that. And, you know, don't be ashamed. But yeah, it sucks, but you got to face up to it. Yeah. And you know what?

You can tell no one, but you still know. Yeah. You can't lie to yourself. You cannot lie to the man in the mirror, man. And maybe, you know, and I don't know, like I say, you don't got to run around telling everybody all your mistakes and your weak points and your failures. But, you know, fastening up to them sometimes is liberating. Yeah, it is. And it's like if other, you know, I've learned a lot from other people, you know, so if somebody can,

learn something from us talking about this, then that's a win for everyone. It was a good ending, but in between there was, man, a lot of, a lot of, I don't know, it's just. It casts a little shadow on things. Yeah, it always does. It sucks. You know, it just does. It just dims it down what's normally really bright and, you know, fun and pretty enjoyable.

It just puts a little damper on it, you know, and just, um, But it doesn't mean you quit. No. I mean, you just take responsibility. Yeah. If we quit every time we failed anything ever, none of us do anything. Yeah. It's nothing hard.

Nothing hard. That's always the risk on when you take a big challenge is that, hey, this might not go your way. Yeah, I mean, you could grab the remote to your TV, drop it and break it. Are you going to quit watching TV? Well, now you can just tell Alex to turn on the TV and I want this, that, that meant this. But, yeah, we just, as animals, we don't. Our ancestors didn't quit. No.

We don't quit. But there's a difference between being honest and giving things honest effort and honest consideration and being irresponsible. Yeah, we covered some miles. Just making sure that that wasn't a fatal hit on that bowl the first time. Didn't seem like it. Not to me. And you know, and you're talking what we got combined. What do we got?

It's almost 70 years of bow hunting. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty good at being able to figure out lethal, not lethal. We've been on a lot of blood trails. Yeah, and it's not, you know, nobody has all the answers, but you can make a lot of assumptions based on experience. Yes, experience is usually king.

So we did that and felt good about it, and it turned out it was, we were right on, and then as fate would have it, we got the, you know, got the I dotted and T crossed and got that bull ended up getting them killed. Dude, it's an amazing story. It's awesome. I mean, couldn't be better.

There couldn't have been a better outcome. And I think Tanner said it too, you know, trying to convince that bull to come over. I mean, I don't know. Would we call them with done 100 yards of that property line? Oh, yeah, that's six points. I mean, I did. I was doing everything. I knew how to do.

All the tricks in the book. I even did the old bobwire fence trick, which I just totally pulled out of my ass. Hey, it would have worked for me. I would be like, shit, there's elk crossing the fence right now. I hear them. Everybody's heard elk jump fences who's been around elk. That was perfect. And you hear the bobwire squeaking and all that stuff?

You're like, didn't work. Well, they know what that sounds like. Let's try that. I like that. That's thinking outside the box. But Tanner said that bull wouldn't come there because we were meant to kill this other one. And I'm like, that's some deep stuff. That is.

Yeah. No, it was meant to be, I think. I think he's right on with that. But, you know, we were meant to kill that bowl. And he was an awesome bowl. six by five just extra devil tying on the one side you should show him I just brought him down

yeah I know go grab him hey Tanner can you turn the can that might turn up a little bit no he can but you bring him over here to the table he's right over there yeah we'll set him on the table and then he'll be here there you go

yeah I just set him right there yep yeah so there he is that's good Yeah, this, I don't know if this is on there, but that time is awesome. But yeah, just a cool dark horn bull. We saw this white tips, you know. The first time I shot, I saw these first three times.

And I'm like, ah, that's pretty good bull. You know, it's Roosevelt. This isn't like giant Rocky Mountain elk. But, yeah, I mean, just a cool bull. I mean, at least front. Yeah, see, I didn't see the fronts. That's why I had never put this bull. That was the one you shot earlier together.

together those never those never because i i saw half this rack yeah half his head behind a tree and i'd never i think all this stuff was kind of lined up yeah probably and i couldn't tell and um but yeah no great front look look at that i mean i know roosevelt's i mean yeah this is this is good stuff for a roosevelt yeah he's a cool bull he is a really cool bull um so i mean we'll we'll we'll wrap this thing up. But I did want to say, so we kind of talked about this. We did the lifter and shoot event. You came down and you like, that was fun just talking to all those guys.

It was fun. But I think, I don't know if we ever figured out how many bulls we've killed together. But I think I mentioned it in that class, but maybe just for the podcast. What do you think has, what has determined why we've been able to kill so many bulls and get it done every single time. How do we get a bull killed every year? What's a secret? Well, we go.

Yeah, it's true. You got to be out there. I mean, we go. Yeah. And, of course, you know, you hunt multiple haunts have been since then, since I've known you. And it's like, but still it's compressed. And I think it's, I think it's just a drive, you know. We don't waste a lot of time.

Yeah, do we take a nap in the middle of the day sometimes when it's slow and it's 95 degrees and we're pissed off shore. It's not that fun when you're not seeing or hearing anything, and that happens. But I think just the consistency, we just slowly grind at it. This isn't working while we're going to walk over here. That's not working well. We're going to go hunt this one. Yeah.

We haven't seen out there for a week. Well, we're going there anyways. Yeah. And we're going to try because we might kill one of her out there. We won't kill one of them for in here. To keep any success I've had is just putting in work. punch that time clock. Yeah.

If you're out there, anything can happen. I mean, I remember that one year you were keeping track, I think, on your phone. Yeah. And you were doing the miles, so you'd ask me, okay, Kevin, how many miles today? And I'd be like, I don't know, man, like six. You're like 13. Yeah, I know. And I'm like, and that was a slow year.

Yeah, yeah. We definitely cover country. And, and. But that's my secret everywhere. Yeah. because I just just going to try to out outwork whatever

whatever problem there is I remember that time and I mentioned it in my book too is like we it was like a hard I think it was a year I killed that giant but it was hot as hell

slow giant moon and I was saying yeah fuck that moon I wish there's two full moons yeah I wish it was hard good more time to practice

your hot weather techniques yeah so it's like we're just hey we're just gonna throw time and work at it. We'll punch in, just be out there, do everything we can, full effort, 100%

and see what happens. And at the end of it, it seems like we're always sitting there with a bull. We heard one bowl that entire hunt. I know, yeah. And we just kept doing hunts and kept walking and, you know,

we're talking real well, let's try that spot. Let's try this spot. And so I think that's, you know, and we hunt a good spot. That's a good spot. Yeah, it is. For anybody, yeah, anybody listen to this.

And they go, well, what's, you know, what's some of the advice or secrets or whatever? It's like, try to get in the best country you can. There are places, and there's lots of good elk country all over this western United States. It's public ground. Yeah. And definitely. And it takes, it will take some work. There's drawn really good tags.

It takes time. But sometimes it's just some work, you know, and you're going to have to put some effort in to find those better spots. Yeah. And, you know, we're hunting a good spot. That helps more opportunity. Definitely. But it can be dead and it was dead. Yeah.

I mean, it's no different than you doing using a hunting fool or we talked about the members research. I've been with the Eastman's. It's like you're not going through all that data to find shitty areas. No. You're going through it to find the very best area because it helps your odds. Yeah. So all I've done my whole life is like, where's the best elk hunting in the world? how can I figure out a way to go there?

Exactly. So even if you don't have that, or if it's not realistic for you to hunt the very best, well, so what's your goal is to hunt the next best? What's in your, within your scope? What's in your orbit? Or your availability. But you always want to hunt the very best you can.

Yes. It's no different. You know, I used to hunt right up here out of Marcoa. Sure. Tough hunting. And then I was like, man, the Eagle Cap, wilderness, that's tough hunting, but it's better than where I was. There's more elk.

So I go there and then it's like, so we hunted Oregon, you hunted Oregon, but then you're like, well, wait, Idaho, that's better than Wyoming is better than Idaho, maybe. So it's like, we're just playing this game of let's just keep finding better and better and opportunities and taking advantage of it if you can. And you go to Arizona and there's 35, 40 bulls per hundred cows on public ground. Yeah. And you're like, oh. Yeah.

Oh, that's what that is. Yeah. This is why people are looking at 350s and saying dink. Yeah. We're here in Oregon and 350 might as well be a world record. It would be a world record. For Oregon, it would be my personal world record. Yeah.

But no, and there's some, you know, there's some good points. There's some good, I've killed 350 bowl in Oregon. Yeah. You know, a wallow ball. Yeah. And, but that's tough hunting. Let me tell you. Oh, definitely.

That's a big, steep, brutal country. Definitely. And, of course, you know, you end up killing stuff at the bottom of the canyons. But yeah, just do, you know, the best you can. I mean, most people, me included, ain't going to hunt the San Carlos. I know. That's just, that's a different game. Yeah, yeah.

But it's like you said, what's the next place? Where is really good that I can hunt? Right. And even, there's public ground, and there's a whole bunch of it. And there's a whole bunch of it doesn't have elk on it. And there's some of it that does. Yeah. I would find a way to be in the spot where some of it does.

Right? Be in those spots. It's the odds and it's a numbers game. So just do the hunt the most you can and the best area you can. That's the secret sauce right there. That's it. That's it. And time. The more time you can do it, the more opportunities you're probably going to have.

I like it because people will say like, oh, it must be nice to hunt San Carlos or to hunt wherever the other great places I hunt. I'm saying, yeah, it is fucking nice. But don't, yeah, exactly. But don't forget, I mean, and I can look at you, I can look at me, I can look at Wayne at the Boerac or Roy, you know, when he was here. And it's like, we've killed everywhere we've ever went. So of course you're going to kill San Carlos and whatever. But don't forget that we've killed on the shittiest hunts everywhere.

Exactly. So you can't just say, well, it's just because of this. It's like, what about all these other, what about in every country, every state, every place ever, ever when I've killed? What about that? What about a brand? You drew a really good tag. Never been there in your life. But you show up with that arsenal and that tool bag and you go to work.

Right. So. And you start dissecting. You start calling. You learn road systems. You hike. You do all this stuff. And you just, just apply yourself to it.

And in the end, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But it usually. But like I said, all those guys I just mentioned, it's like it pretty much always works. They're always getting, you know, you've always killed. You know, it's just, it's going to happen because the skill sets, they travel with you. They do. And then you get there, you break it down, you hunt hard. And usually all that experience pays off and it happens.

Something gives way eventually. But you know, what I say, when people say it must be nice, and I go, no, you're wrong, man. It's fucking way better than nice. That's what it is. Because I've been there on San Carlos with you one year when I was driving the drive. And that is the most fantastic thing I've ever seen. Me too. And I was like, oh.

Some people are like, well, I don't get a hunter. It's like, dude, me neither. But I don't give a shit. That. Yeah. To appreciate that for what it is, if you can't appreciate that, maybe you should revisit your, you know, if you want a hunt or not. Right.

Because don't set that as your bar. That's pretty unique. Yeah. When I first went there, it's expensive. And I was like, I was like, this will be a one and done. It should be. One and done. Once in a lifetime.

I'm just going to, you know, do whatever it takes to get there, this one time just to experience it. And so that, it's not realistic for people like us. It's all there's to it. It's just like, as for people like Warnock or people with way more money than us. Sorry, Gerald. Yeah. So it's like, but to me, just to your point, I was just like, one time I just want, you know, I've watched the videos.

We used to watch this video at the Boerack, big bulls of Santa Carlos or whatever. And it was just, I didn't even know there was elk like that on this planet. And so we'd watch it and obsess over it. And then just like, wait, so you're saying if. if I write this check, I can hunt the same country. And it's, you know, you've been down there. There's no fences. It's big country.

No, there's no fences. It's big country. It's not for a thousand miles. No, and everybody, you know, it's not archery. It's any weapon. Nobody's using a bow. You know, it's like, but those, the Apache tribe, they freaking know elk. Everybody knows, they know that country.

They know where the big bull. like to hang out. So you will but get some competition because the tribal members, they get tags too. And we're down there. And it's just like, I just got so much respect for that country for what it is and how special it is and how magical it is. And then also, I love the culture and the people and the tradition of it. I just love, I love everything about it. So even if it was a once in a lifetime, I'm like, that's okay. That's good enough for me. And now somehow it's been six last Some things should be once in a lifetime, man. I'm not saying that, but there are some things, and that's what makes them special.

They obviously know they're special. Like you said, and those people, it's amazing what they do and the resources that they've developed. And they know what big bulls look like, too. I mean, because when a guy looks and goes, and it's like a 390 bull, and they're like, hmm, and I'm like. I know. But here's the trap people fall into, right? There's ego involved. There's jealousy, but they set their own bar based on that.

Mm-hmm. Don't do that. No. Hell now. Don't do that. I can't be taking what you expect there to other states. No. You would hate hunting.

This, would I have killed this bull? I mean, think about... I wouldn't. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, I mean, it's, I know. You know, they say what comparison is a thief of joy. It is a thief of joy. I mean, it's 100%.

It's like you can't compare, you can't compare. you can't compare bulls down there to anywhere else. No, you can't. And don't fall in that trap. Just, you know, enjoy, I don't know, there's far more enjoyment and just realizing what you got, understanding what the upper limits that are. And, I mean, maybe you're just a cow hunter

and you want to go shoot a cow and stuff. Well, all I... I know it's one reason why you and I get along so well is because, so we got this bull killed here in Oregon, and I wasn't any less happy than when I killed. that bull right behind you in Santa Carlos this year, which is a giant bull. I wasn't, I wasn't more happy with that bull than this bull. Because hunting is so cherished and means so much.

And every bull is you're rewarded for this effort with this bull. And it's like, I don't give a fuck how big it is, really. Dude, that's, that was just as, I mean, that's awesome. Yeah. Is it a giant Roosevelt? No, but it's real classic looking. Yeah. Real typical.

And he's got some nice fronts. but it was a good hunt, a great shot. I was the same. End up being what it was. I was the same, just as happy is when I killed that bull right behind you. Yeah. And successful. Yeah. So yeah, don't let that thief steal your job.

No, I know I don't. I don't either. I hope others can, it's hard, though, because we are competitive. We are competitive beast. Men are competitive. It's like we have the egos. We love to talk shit. We love to discount what other people do.

I get it. I've done it too. Yep. I did it. I think that for me personally, when I was younger, there was more comparison like that. And in a way, it kind of drove me a little bit. Yeah. I wanted to be the guy with more pictures up on the board. Yeah. Right? I wanted to be that guy. The most pictures. Yeah. And I was like, so it drove me, but I don't think it, I'd never let that, like, permeate into, if I didn't get that, that hunting wasn't fun anymore. Yeah. Because it was always fun. And what, no. I just wanted to go.

So if that's your, if that's your standard, then it's going to be a tough road to hoe. Yeah. You know, I'd rather people, much rather people just enjoy, you know, enjoy it for, there's so much to enjoy. Oh, man, it's such a gift to be able to be out there in the mountains with a bow. Are you kidding me? It's, yeah. How much, how much better is life than that, those moments where we're out there,

matching wits with a herd of elk. Yeah. And we're hunting. It's just like just enjoy it for what it is. Yeah, it's a gift. It's fixed. It's finite, man. It doesn't go on forever.

No. So. Well, I know next weekend we're going to be having Trude out there trying to find a buck and Tanner's going to be along with us. We're going to try to get that on film too. Awesome. Kevin, thank you. It's, you know, you're one of my best friends now. You know, we've lost our, we've lost our best friends.

Yeah. And now we're stuck with each other. I know. How'd you get so lucky? But it's, I love hunting with you. I love that you love what I love. It just makes it we have such a good time. And I appreciate your friendship and all the great times we've had,

Chase and Elk. Yeah, and hopefully great times to come. And I appreciate all the same things in you. It really does. And it's not hard. It's not easy to find people who kind of have the same mindset. And it can enjoy that. right? Yeah. And, I mean, you can tell when someone is actually enjoying something or they're

just kind of faking it. Yeah. A little bit and kind of, uh-huh, whatever. But yeah, it's just cool. We just show up and do our deal. Yeah. Not a lot of fanfare, not a lot of, you know, just what we do. Yeah, just go about our business and have fun, man. Yeah, I appreciate you too very much. Thanks for having me on, man. Yeah, thank you. I give a shout out to Ron Hoffsus and Bubba. Yeah. Bobba, Shorb. Yeah, he is a Shorb. Sure, yeah.

Those guys are, those are part of the team down there. Absolutely. We, uh, they know that property so well hunted there their whole lives. Like, I don't know what it. They're in this almost 70, right? Ron's over 70. Yeah. Run 702 or 73.

70 years of knowing that country. That's, uh, so yeah. Those, I mean, we get down there. We team up. We get bulls killed. Yeah. And I was glassing with Bubb this morning. And I'm thankful for it. Because, you know, it's not going to last forever.

Nothing does. No, no, no. And so I'm going to enjoy every time I can, you know. Wow. Yeah. We got some more days ahead of us. Thank you, brother. Next weekend.

Excellent. All right. Thank you, man. Keep hammer. Loophole optics has been providing my binoculars and eyewear for the last few years. I like that it's an Oregon company. and they make such high-quality glass. That's all I've really used.

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