Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 048 - Bo Nickal

Episode Date: December 13, 2023

Join us for a discussion with professional mixed martial artist and bowhunter, Bo Nickal. Bo and Cam cover Bo’s mindset in training and fighting, upcoming fights, bowhunting and more! Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Bo Nickal Links: https://www.instagram.com/nobickal1/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN948iU1U8McaD85_H-4MJA  Thank you to our sponsors: Bass Pro/Cabelas: https://www.basspro.com MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping Santa Cruz Medicinals: scmedicinals.com use code KeepHammering for 15% off Leupold: https://www.leupold.com/ Ice Barrel: https://icebarrel.com/CAM use code CAM for $125 off Black Rifle: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first Order Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv   Timestamps: 0:00:00 Intro 0:02:17 Bo’s Thoughts on the Lift, Run, Shoot 0:04:05 Bo’s Training Style 0:06:28 The Sport of Wrestling 0:12:13 Film Study for Training 0:17:03 Watching for Reactions in UFC Fights 0:19:29 Skillset: Who’s Most Susceptible to Bo in the UFC 0:21:51 Bad Matchups for Wrestlers 0:24:56 Helping with Jorge Masvidal’s Training for the Colby Fight 0:26:51 Wrestling is the Ultimate Fight Cheat Code 0:33:00 Toughman Competition 0:34:44 Bo’s Mentors 0:37:19 Bo’s Dad as a Coach 0:41:36 John Danaher & Cael Sanderson Coaching 0:48:06 Does Bo Ever Feel Like he Failed Coach Cael 0:51:36 The Mentality of 100% 0:54:50 Alignment Your Life for Success 01:04:08 Khabib as a Fighter & Mentor 01:08:33 The Right or Wrong Way to Train 01:12:37 Bo’s Love for Bowhunting 01:18:01 Being Intentional in Hunting 01:21:19 The Pressure in Bowhunting 0:29:39 Outro

Every step I take, I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel, gather up my energy, and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I'm moving so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. All right, this is a Keep Hammering Collective. I'm with Bo Nickel.

It's nice to have you here. Yeah, great to be here. Had a great day. Man, what a day. It was, yeah, I mean, you know, I went on a pretty good run. of a lot of podcasts back to back to back and then I'd hunting season and then kind of just been getting back into it now I think I have three more podcasts to do by the end of the year so I was like I was in really good shape before season and anybody who'd come I'd be like okay I'm going to be

ready you know from all these freaks but then you know Rihanna was talking to you about getting you here and then I was like oh my gosh I got a beast coming and I'm not in shape I'm not in shape so It was a great day, but I was a little nervous getting you in here because you're, I mean, for those who don't know, Bo is like, you know, a UFC, not a veteran, like kind of a newcomer now. What are you, two or three, no? Two and O in the UFC, yeah. Yeah. And what are you overall? Five and O.

Five and O. Yeah. Yeah. So, but you're the guy everybody's talking about. You know, I mean, there's the names everybody knows and like they've been in the mix for the championship belts and everything for years. And then there's you who's like coming up and everybody. says that's the guy right all the experts are saying that's the guy that's you so it's exciting to have you here i mean it's a big honor i followed you for a while i know about your your i don't know not even

just college but all your wrestling pedigree for 20 years i think and yeah so it's exciting to have you yeah i appreciate it i was honestly like in the same boat as you with uh hunting and stuff and i wasn't necessarily in like a hundred percent shape where I'd like to be so and I knew I was coming out here I was like frick I better be ready because y'all I know you get after it but yeah it was great you know I'm I'm just grateful that that I get to be here that I got to hang out with you and learn and chat and talk so yeah it's been pretty cool for me as well would you what did you think of the the mountain carrying the rock it's no joke I feel like I need to get some more of that I was you know we were talking earlier but I definitely you know most of my

conditioning training is my sport, right? Like, you know, rounds in sparring, rounds in the bag. I feel like that's what I've always kind of gravitated towards. But there's something about just getting out in nature, having it's really you in the mountain, and big ass rock. Yeah, yeah. And that's it, right? Like, you got to get to a place in your mind, like, to get up there that, you know,

it's not like you can make somebody quit. That rock in the mountain, like, they're not quitting. No, you did great. I mean, it is a grind. It's tough. I mean, you know, Huberman said himself, it's a hardest cardio he's ever done. He's not a UFC fighter, but he is a beast. For sure.

So it's a, that means something. And you did a great job. I mean, carried the rock the whole way. It's tough. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about this, too. In regard to training, you said you do.

like pretty much do your sport to train. And it was, you know, that type of training, the rock up the mountain reminds me of, you saw Tony Ferguson was just training with David Gagons. Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of critics. I don't know if you and Joe talked about this at all, did you? I don't think we did now.

Yeah, I mean, maybe briefly, but not much. I'll mention, Beau was just on like a new, pretty new podcast that Joe Rogan experience yesterday. And so I was like, I'm hoping we don't cover the same material. You guys did probably not because Joe's like smart and I'm dumb. So my questions are pretty basic. But yeah, I was wondering with Tony and Goggins, it's not really the skill set training. Right.

You know, you said you, if when you work out, you want to also be building skills. For sure. Right. Yeah. And they were training more of like a grinded out mentality, like a dog mentality. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I've thought about that some.

and the way I look at it, I'm, I'm, everybody's different, right? Like, for me, that's kind of been what I feel like is best for me. And if somebody else, you know, wants to get a different style, a different type of training, I don't really judge that at all. I think that Tony is a proven top level world class fighter. And, you know, if he thinks that's what he needs to do, like, that's what he needs to do. There's no real, for me, I don't really like the idea, like, you know, talking about what this guy's doing or that guy's doing for training,

you know, maybe we'll see in the results. I obviously am rooting for him. I hope that he goes out there and frigging puts on a show just because I'm a big fan of, you know, the sport in general and Tony Ferguson's one, like he's been here forever. So I would love to see him go get a win, fellow American wrestler, right?

So, you know, I think that I'm sure this training camp was with Goggins was the hardest one he's ever done. Like I have no doubt about that. So yeah, I, I, I, I, I think he's going to do what's best for him. I'll do what's best for me. But I think there's definitely after today and feeling what it felt like just to get up that mountain.

I think there's some room for that type of training in anybody's camp. Well, the most famous wrestler I know used to carry a log up and down stadium steps. Do you know who that is? Yeah, yes, sir. Monster. Vision Quest.

Exactly, yeah. That's a classic. Bass Pro Shops and Cabellas, know that everyone has their season. Deer season, turkey season, duck season, every animal is a unique challenge, every hunt, a different experience. And I count on my local Cabela store here in Springfield, Oregon

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of the outdoors through donations, grant writing, and advocacy. Head to their website, bassproshop.com, or cabellas.com, and get geared up for your upcoming hunts. How many times did you watch that movie? I've watched that like a dozen times, at least. Yeah, I love that movie. That's such a good one. Me too.

It worked for him. They need to remake it. I know. They remake every other movie. I know, yeah, that would be great. I'm trying to think who they could get in there. They could get some good guys in there, I'm sure. Yeah.

That would be fun. That was, yeah, I love that part of it. But that reminds me of that out of the box screen. I think so. Good. I know. I haven't watched it in a while. I just,

I was thinking at that just now, just because of the whole, you know, the wrestling, I wasn't involved in wrestling growing up. I mean, when I went to high school, we didn't even have wrestling. Oh, really? Yeah, there was no program.

So everybody played, it's during football, right? There's overlap, yeah. Yeah, there's a good amount. Or is it during basketball? So wrestling. kind of runs like fall and spring typically so it'll go from you know October through February March so it the first half of football season and then

the first half of basketball season it kind of overlaps both of the last half of football first half yeah sorry last half of football yeah so we I didn't but since then you know never having done it following the UFC you become a huge fan of wrestlers right seems like wrestlers kind of set the I don't know set the pace. You know, the fight generally happens where they want it to happen for the, you know, not for the most part, but a lot of times. I mean, guys, you know, that I can't imagine you got to wrestle over there

who's really good at getting people on the ground and you're trying to fend off the takedown. That must be exhausting for people. Yeah, I can imagine, you know, for me, I always think about when I go into a flight, like have my, I want my opponent to be worrying about as much possible, as much things as possible. So, you know, that's going to bring them a ton of anxiety. And you see it all the time with guys, like, they have to respect that wrestling so much. And there are certain guys that use that very well to their advantage, you know, I think,

I think some guys, wrestlers are also kind of can be stubborn and tough, so some dudes just want to get in there and bang, right? Yeah. But, you know, the guys that really use that wrestling, tactically and psychologically against their opponent, I feel like those are the guys that do the best. You know, the threat of something almost is more powerful than actually using it sometimes. So I try to take that with me.

You know, I'm wrestled for 20 years. That's always going to be my game. So I think where some guys, you know, let it go a little too much, I'm trying to like really, you know, keep hammering that. Keep hammering. I got it. Keep hammering that. No pun intended.

But yeah. and keep that, you know, as a big part of my reputation in fighting. Yeah, you know, we talked about critics earlier. Everybody's got something to say, especially people who don't fight. Definitely. They're the experts. But people like to criticize Chandler on he doesn't wrestle enough, you know, because he's, you know, went to Missou, I think was all-American.

Yeah. Very good. But he does bang. Oh, yeah. He loves it. Yeah. So as people have said that, like, They mentioned like his fight IQ.

You know what I mean? Critics like to say stuff like that. But I think for him, you know, especially hearing you just talk, it's the threat of that wrestling that keeps them honest. He doesn't even have to do it. Absolutely. Yeah, that's for sure what it is. And every wrestler has a different style of wrestling.

Michael Chandler, if you look at him, he's so explosive, so powerful. He's dynamic. And he can use that third of wrestling to knock people out, which he's done throughout his entire career, right? Like, he's not a guy. If you look back and watch his wrestling film, he wasn't a take you down, ride you out, hold you down on top guy.

He was a takedown, you know, blast, through you, double leg, you, smash you. That's how his wrestling translates to M.A. So, you know, I think that everybody has a different style and it applies differently to MMA. And for somebody to, like, criticize a guy who is at the top of the sport, when more than likely that people criticizing them have zero hours training or competing.

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They also give away a ton of different hunting opportunities. They even gave away an elk hunt and a deer hunt at one of my most cherished hunting spots in Utah. If you listen to the podcast, you also get 20% off by using code cam. That's CAM at www.com. I mean, we also talked about that people have an opinion, they're passionate about it. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, you get tired of hearing it, but also I guess they're, they're paying your bills a little bit, you know, but I could imagine it's frustrating.

I think that it's important to when you set your expectation for fans, it shouldn't be the same as your close friends, family, training partners, teammates, coaches like, you can't look at them and take everything they say so personally. Like, they don't know you, right? Like that's something that for me, going from wrestling, which is a very respectful sport, there's not a lot of trash talk, you know, maybe here and there there is, but people generally keep it like pretty, pretty classy to especially fans, not every fan, but for the most part, to MMA where it's like super hostile.

And it's been really interesting because I know initially for me at least I would get pretty fired up. And I still get fired up here and there. Like, you know, that stuff, it motivates me. It makes me want to train harder, do better, prove people that doubt me wrong. But at the same time, I'm like, all right, you know, let it, let it be motivation. Don't let it be any more than that. Yeah, distraction.

Yeah, exactly. You can't be like some dude says something to you and get all pissed off and want to, like, fight a guy in the street is like, all right, dude, whatever. You're a joke. Like, get on my face. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, too, like, I don't know if this is your experience, but I've never had a negative fan experience in person. It's always positive. Always ask for a picture.

And those probably the same dudes that are like, you only fight cans. Like, it can't wait until you get knocked out. Like it's like, bro, you know, it's not real life. So, you know, I just try to use that for a little motivation for a little fire and stuff. But at the same time, it's like kind of water off a duck's bag. Yeah. No, I get that. How much film do you watch on, on your opponents or just on the sport in general. Film's huge for me. I'm a big film study guy. You know, there's, I'm pretty much watching film every day.

You know, whether it's a small amount, clips, things like that. I don't like to watch clips a lot, but I like to, you know, if I see something that is interesting to me, I like to study it, break it down, try to figure out why it's working. But long, like longer film study, I do a ton of. And especially scouting my opponents, typically I'll do it in kind of two, two or three stages where I'll do at the beginning of camp, work on some stuff, do it again to middle camp, work on some stuff, and then right at the end, just like keep it fresh in my mind. So I know that I'm sharp, I'm ready to go.

And I think that's a very underutilized kind of part of a training, really modality, training modality in MMA. You listen to anybody that competes in professional sports in the NFL, the NBA, even the MLB. These dudes are studying a lot of film. They're watching tons of film. You know, talk to an NFL quarterback, talk to a point guard in the NBA. every single interview they do, they're referencing film study. And that, that, those, these, these types of, um, training modalities and things,

I feel like MMA, it's such a, I'm going to be a tough guy. I'm going to come out here. Let's let me bang, bro. And it's like, that's a given. Like that's part of the sport. Yeah. Let's come at it. To me, I want to come at it intelligently.

I want to come at it from a place of professionalism. And, uh, I feel like it helps me a lot, you know, because you can only train so much. And, and you can only put so many hours. and in the day to where before you're really grinding your body into dust. But I can study film for hours and hours and hours. And that's where I feel like I get a leg up on people. Yeah. Yeah, I could see that being a big advantage of, you know, tendencies.

Because it seems like fighters have their same familiar things they like. Mm-hmm. Yeah, pattern. And they go back to it. Yeah. You know, they might try different things. But, you know, in the heat of the moment or when the fire gets back, pretty hot, you kind of know what they're going to do. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. To me,

it's if I can, if I know, if I can force a reaction out of a guy, it's over. Yeah. You're done. And, and, you know, of course, the confidence in knowing that, that it's over is from reps and reps and reps and hours of drilling and, you know, working these specific techniques and working positioning and understanding how to, how to elicit that reaction out of a guy. So, Um, yeah, everybody has that, right? Like, no matter how good you are, whether you're, uh, it's your first flight or whether you're John Jones. Like you're, you're going to have a reaction in some way and a big part of preparation and

and being well prepared for a flight is understanding that, knowing that. And not only understanding and knowing it, but putting in the, the drills, putting in the time throughout that camp to know what you're going to do in the flight. Like, you know, it's one thing to think it, but then you got to, you got to back that up with, with time in training. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't know. I just think that I feel like film would be a big one. What did you, I mean, what do you think film is more important for tendencies, wrestling or fighting? Did you watch film during wrestling too?

I did, yeah. I've always been a big film guy. It started out, honestly, when I was a kid. I remember being eight, nine, ten years old, I would, if there was wrestling on, I was watching it, Whether it was on the NCAA championships, Big Ten Network, Flow Wrestling, YouTube, whatever, like, I was on it. I knew it. I would get magazines in the mail and I would read through every single ranking, every single article, know exactly what's happening, where, who's going to match up, which kid was good. That way, you know, when I go to a tournament, my dad was a high school wrestling coach. So I would go to all these big tournaments as a kid, you know, and watch the high school guys competing. I would know every single guy that was out there and competing.

So film study has been a big thing for me since I was a kid. First, it was more so enjoying it and like watching as a fan. And then it became something that I was like, wow, this is like helping me a lot. So I still enjoy it, but I do it purposefully. And I would say I don't know that one or the other is more important, but I mean, MMA is so much more high stakes. Yeah, it's so much more high stakes. You're not going to get knocked out in wrestling. No.

And it's just a whole different ballgame when. And, you know, there's however many million people watching, there's, you know, money on the line, your career's on the line, your health is on the line, that type of thing versus a wrestling match where it's a big deal if you win or lose, but, you know, you're not getting knocked out and embarrassed in front of millions of people. So, I mean, I would say, like, everything in MMA is heightened. You know, your fights so far on the UFC have been pretty quick from what I know.

So I, you know, you mentioned if you get a reaction, it's over. I was, I was wondering when you said that, like, I could see where it really would pay off in a longer fight. And I was, then I was wondering to myself, if you get that reaction, do you act on it then? Or do you bank it and think that, okay, well, he did that this time. I'm not going to do it. But now I know what he's going to do. So when he does, when he reacts, I'm doing this. I think it's both.

So in my last fight, a good example. So we were Southpaw Orthodox matchup, and I came out right away, threw a punch, came back, like really fainted a punch and fainted a takedown to see how he reacted. Then we kind of circled back to the center. I dropped my hand down, and he was super nervous about the takedown. So he dropped his hand down. So immediately when that happened, I knew I'm coming over the top. I'm going to do the same exact thing. Come over the top of the right hook.

And I did it, boom, and it landed. and that was just in the moment where I saw what he did, I knew there was going to be an opening the exact next time, and I went for it. I wasn't trying to knock him out or anything. I was just, you know, saw that and kind of read him. And it worked out. I was able to then get the finish.

But there's definitely a lot of stuff where there's other scenarios where, you know, you might be put in a position. You see how a guy reacts and you're not going to be able to elicit that same reaction right away. So then you do have to keep that in the bank. And that's where the mental side of the sport is so important, where you're under pressure, you're getting tired. How good is your decision-making capability in those situations? And how well are you able to log those little notes where you see, okay, I fake a calf-kick

and he goes to check it like this every time. All right. Now I can fake a calf-kick, come up with a two, three, or take him down, or then teeve him in the belly. Like, what have I put into drilling in training that? that I'm now, I'm going to be able to access in these moments. That's kind of my opinion on that. You know, so you really do both.

You know, you can go right away if you know it's there or, you know, maybe there's a situation where you want to save something or, you know, things like that. It's, that's, that's, being able to discern what to do, that's, like, a very important part of fighting. Yeah. So who do you see, like, you're 185? That's middleweight, right?

Yep. Middleweight. So of the guys, say, in the top 10, who is most susceptible to falling to you because of your skill, your wrestling heavily heavy skill set? Who would you think is, is? Yeah. To be honest, everybody. Really?

Everybody, man. You know, like that's the thing is there's, there's, the division I'm in right now is not very wrestling heavy. There's not really a lot of high level grapplers of people who, you know, I, I feel like, can threaten me or can really defend what would I have. So, you know, I think all of those guys are right for the picking. And, you know, we'll see how it goes. You know, whoever the UFC decides to match me up with, I think that I'm continuing to develop as a fighter overall. My other, my base and my footwork and my skills are getting sharper and sharper every day in the other

aspects and then you know I'm continuing to improve in wrestling so by the time I'm fighting those guys I don't really see of course there's tough guys know there's there's a good chance some of those fights are going to be competitive but I'm working right now and putting the time into where every fight I have is going to look like these dudes outclassed it doesn't matter whether it's an unranked guy in his first UFC fight or whether I'm fighting for the belt like that's my intention and my plan I'm not going out there to bang it out and have a 50-50 you know, split decision with the guy. Like I'm going out to dominate every single dude that I compete against.

So, you know, I don't really look at anybody and like feel like, no, oh, this dude's a tough matchup or oh, this dude's a bad matchup. It's just, you know, for me, it's about developing, improving, getting better. And that's really what I'm focused on. Yeah, I think that, you know, I think that fighters, when they know they got some wrestling prodigy yeah uh or somebody who's like they know that the reputation is i think and they're not wrestling whatever centric i think they're they want to avoid that yeah they don't like that because you know because i've even seen you know there's black belts and it's weird because you know i think

uh hosmod even said this he was just a wrestler but he would fight black belts and dominate them. Yeah. So it doesn't seem like that ever happens to wrestlers. There's not a bad matchup really for a wrestler. No, you know. Maybe striking if they can't strike at all. Yeah, if they can't strike at all.

I would say a bad matchup for a wrestler would be somebody who is disciplined, who keeps a good base, who moves a lot. Like, Adasania did a good job of always continuing to move, like not never staying in one place to where the guy could read you and take you down. So, you know, he was a guy that I think did well in that regard. But, man, you're going to have to move for the entire fight. Yeah. If you stop that up.

Yeah, you can. That's pretty tiring. Most people don't train that way. Right. So they're not, it's not like, okay, you don't train this way. All of a sudden, in the flight, now you're going to be able to do it. And most people don't like to train even that way. And they don't like to train wrestling either.

So, you know, it's hard to, like, one, they're not going to make up for it. But two, even if they're trying to train. to they're not really putting that work in it's not fun it's way more fun to hit pads and spa and do those types of things and that's what most people are doing at least from from what i see yeah yeah that's i mean i always love you know styles make fights is what they say but i don't know i it seems like wrestlers have a big advantage just from the from the seat of the fan here where i'm at and i'm i mean i want to see you up against i don't know i want to see it because i do know like I know Israel was a good example

is wrestling kind of was a weakness I think that showed itself against Jan. But that's a bigger guy but still so he worked really hard to work on his wrestling but still it's never going to be like a plot on the plus side

it's just like hopefully it's not a devastating negative. Exactly yeah. Hopefully it's just a push where so at best they're making it where it's hopefully sort of even. It's never going to be an advantage where you're going to have an advantage in that category every time. For sure. Yeah. I mean, I want to put myself in those positions as much as possible.

Like if a guy has to wrestle with me for a round, for a round and a half, it's like, good luck, dude. One, you're going to be so tired. You're not going to be able to do anything. Two, I'm going to win those positions every time. Like, you're not beating me. You're just not going to. And so I hope that I don't know. It's curious for me to think about what guys are doing to train for. me and prep for me and get ready because you know like I said most guys they don't want to train wrestling um they're not really working hard on it and you know so they they get let's say

they get matched up with me for a fight and they got eight or 10 weeks to prep I don't know what are they going to start sprawling they're going to work on backing up throwing an uppercut or a knee it's like okay uh I don't know that that that's that's something I think about and consider but at the end of the day like there's zero chance they're going to make up really really any in wrestling, right? Yeah. They're not going to. I mean, and you have kind of first-hand knowledge,

not of yourself, but you did help Jorge Mazvedal try to prepare for wrestling heavy Colby. It's tough. And I mean, how was he doing? Like when you guys would train, was it looking good? Yeah.

Were you thinking? He was getting better. He was improving and he was making gains. But it's, you know, it's so hard to make those gains when the other guy has 20 years under his belt and you've been doing it for a few years and intermittently and it's it's just such a thing that if you do it as a kid you get this natural feel you know how to move your body you know this and that and also it's kind of leverage

against the guy you're with even if you know what to do and you do a good job in a fight you got to do that over and over and over again like in a guy like colby i would sit against a guy like Colby, it's more important to be in good shape than it is to be good at wrestling because, you know, you can defend him once, but if it takes a good percent of your energy to do that one correct defense, what are you going to do the next time? Yeah. You're going to get worn down. And so it's more important to just be in like amazing condition than it is to have good

technique because, you know, you can kind of figure some stuff out. Let's say you're in great shape and you get taken down. You're not worried about how much energy it takes to pop back up. get away like you're just going to do it but if you're concerned freak all right i got taken down now how much energy am i using oh i don't want to be tired because it's the worst thing in the world to be in a flight is it's tired it's better to be way outmatched in technique and have that guy be tired and you be fresh than it is to have much much better technique but you're dead but you're fatig so to me like a lot of that had to do with with cardio more so than even wrestling

technique because it's you got to be able to you can learn the right technique but if you can't do when you're tired, it doesn't matter. I do think that, you know, that years, 20, you said 20 years of wrestling, when you're, you get used to feeling some, you know, another man and how they're, you know, where their body is, where that leverage works, what you can do to manipulate it. That comes, you know, over years. Yeah. And just, just knowing how to take advantage and get the, get the, your opponent to do what you want them to do. Yeah. Yeah. Wrestling is the ultimate cheat code, really, because, there's to me the biggest um i've already mentioned like cardio and conditioning as you know the biggest part of mma but after that it's really just control if you can control your guy if like

anybody that if i get my hands on them i'm gonna be able to move around control and put them where i want to you know nobody's going to do doing that to me when when we're locked up of course you know you you change you get into kickboxing range or you get into boxing range and like things are different but just being able to control your opponent, being able to threaten the wrestling, being able to take a guy down and put yourself in good position, it almost doesn't, a lot of people highlight the strikes. They highlight a flying knee or a straight two or, you know,

head kick or a combination. Like this stuff is a formality, it's an afterthought. Like that stuff is the easiest thing to figure out how to do. What's hard is to figure out how to control and manipulate your opponent, put them in a position where now you're in. net advantage and then you do that over again over again over again and now you're giving yourself opportunities to to land strikes to get takedowns to get submissions to finish the fight but that's where it starts is that that positioning that control and that's really what wrestling

is all about because at the end of the day like let's say you look at a wrestling match if you get an angle on somebody and now I can shoot and take them down that's the same thing as me me get an angle on somebody and punch them or kick them is the same thing or let's say I get I get get to the leg, I get them on the ground, they're going to try to get up, I pull them down to their hip. Like, I'm just doing just the positioning aspect of it without the landing the strikes or they're doing submission. So it's like. But the end results the same. You're really doing 80% of it just without the finish, right? So that's why I think wrestling, you know, that's another thing wrestling gives that's a huge advantage. Were you in the corner for Jorge during that fight?

So I was like kind of not, he didn't, he didn't have me in his corner. He had me kind of like, just cage side or whatever. Yeah, I want, I just wanted. wondered what the was a thought like, okay, we're going to have to knock this guy out. Oh, I was with him in the backstage, like warming up and stuff. So the thought was, it was really like, I think he was more focused on the cardio than anything else. He was more focused on like, don't get tired. I think in the back of his head, he kind of knew he needed to knock him out. But, I mean, he got tired in like two minutes.

I know. It went quick. It went quick. That must be demoralizing. Yeah. I mean, you probably, you haven't been there. Not in a fight, no, not really in a wrestling match. But training, practice, you feel that.

Yeah, a lot. So it's the worst, man. Yeah, it sucks. Today's podcast sponsor is Santa Cruz Medicinals. And it's a company I'm proud to talk about because I've been using their CBD products for years. We use a CBD beef tallow to cook our elk steaks. And their CBD cream is one of the best things I've used post run to help ease the pain

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obviously, but I did, I felt bad because it was like he looked, Jorge looked, you know, I liked Jorge for years. Yeah. For years he was like, you know, we watched the backyard stuff with him. Yeah. Loved. He was such a dog. I know. And so yeah, of course I wanted Colby's from where. I live the same town, but I did, I saw Jorge over there, like, leaning against a fence at the end, just couldn't even hardly stand up. And I'm like, God, dang, that sucks. Because he's a, he's a gangster. Yeah, he's a great guy too. Like, you know, yeah, really, really nice dude. Love training with him. And, you know, he's taught me a good amount and stuff. So, you know, I was grateful to kind of have that experience and be there with him. It helped me a ton just knowing what it's like to be in a UFC

pay-per-view main event and go through this process like i was able to kind of go through that with him before i was ever even in the ufc so super valuable for me and yeah it's tough but that's the game that's the life we chose and there's only one winner and uh yeah it is what it is but uh don't get tired in a flight yeah i know i'll note that for my whenever i enter the octagon when you ever make your debut yeah yeah no i mean i am like i'm so lucky to be i'm i'm Been a big fan. I mean, I watched, like, back when Ken Shamrock and Hoist Gracie when there was no weight limits. And it was like 1996 or whenever I was, we used to get it over my buddies' pay-per-view.

And plus then before that, I used to watch, I think they called it, was it Tough Man? Tough Man competition. Do you remember that? Yeah, yeah. And there's. They still do those sometimes. Phil Barroni. Phil Barroni was teammates in wrestling with one of my college coaches.

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Well, he was like, he was shredded. Yeah. And like a beast in this tough man competition. Yeah. I used to love that stuff. Like bare knuckle, throw down.

Yeah, it was crazy. But, yeah, so I've been like a combat sports fan, just a fan for decades. So to be friends with Joe and be able to be right there. I mean, it's a dream come true. And also to have, you know, I was telling you today, I've never had a champion in the gym. I've had, I've had, Colby won the interim. He beat De Sagnos.

Right. And Chandler has fought and it was like this close right there to beating Olivera. I thought he had one, like one more punch. You know, Oliver's on the ground like doing like this. So close. Then he would have been champion. And then, you know, Chad Mendez,

he had a great fight, five round war with Aldo down in Brazil. Right. And so never. never had an official champion so maybe it's you but we i think it will be for sure i mean if if we'll see how this fight goes with colby and leon but if he doesn't get her done i'll get her done who's uh who have you learned the most from you know either personally or from afar who have you tried to model yourself after if anybody um i wouldn't say there's a person i've tried to model

myself after but as far as like people i consider mentors people that i I look to for advice within MMA specifically to my coaches, Barry Robinson, who he's a boxing coach and striking coach. I mean, he started off in boxing, but now he's really moved into anything striking related, and he lives in Thailand. But I pretty much communicate with him on the daily on, you know, social media or through text. We'll do FaceTime film studies and stuff like that.

and he's helped me so much just understand the game of MMA and really how to be a proficient striker. Like a lot of stuff that I'm saying now about positioning and, you know, learning how to move, learning how to control, like this type of stuff comes from him. And so he's made a huge impact on me. And then the other coach I work with heavily is Mike Brown and Mike, you know, he was W.C. World Champion, really obviously tough fighter and now like head coach, American Top Team down in Coconut Creek, Florida. And he's really taught me a lot of like the mental game of MMA of, you know,

pick your spots, stay in a good position, stay safe, and learning how to blend together the styles that I'm good at and kind of tailor and figure out what my game is in MMA. So learning how to punch into takedown, learning how to go takedowns into jiu-jitsu, learning how to threaten jiu-jitsu and ground and pound. These types of things I'm learning from Mike. So I'm really lucky.

I've always had really good coaches. I think it's just something that I've been blessed with. My dad coached me in wrestling from 5 to 18 when I got in college. And he was an amazing coach. I don't even know how many individual state champions and state championship teams. And so it really started with him. And then obviously had great coaches at Penn State for wrestling. And so that's always been a relationship that's been really important to me

to find really good coaches, people that I trust, to people that I believe that I can, you know, that I know are going to give me, not just tell me what I want to hear, but give me the right information and maybe get on me a little bit when I need to, when I need to hear that. So, you know, those guys for me, when I transitioned into MMA, it was like priority for me to find good guys that I trust. And those are two guys that had definitely had the biggest impact on me in my career thus far. How was your dad as a coach? Was he pretty tough on you? You can say that. Yeah. Yeah. He was tough on me.

I think that a lot of kids their whose dads are coaches their dads are tough on them and maybe they don't really want it like they're not 100% in on whatever they're doing and so that puts a strain on the relationship but I'm super close with my dad

like my dad's one of my best friends so I think that it was good because he coached me basically as hard as I wanted to be coached there were times when it was like a little much but I think that helped me And now I look back at all of that stuff, and I'm so grateful for it. I remember, there was countless nights where I would basically do the youth wrestling practice. Or no, excuse me, I would do the start off coming at 3 or 4 p.m.

do the high school wrestling practice because they would go straight after school, do that for two hours. I'll take an hour break, get some dinner or whatever, and then do the youth wrestling practice. And my dad would coach the youth wrestling too. And what people do nowadays, they do these clubs, right? where all the youth from the area come in and they pay whatever 100 bucks a month to do this. Like my dad was doing that for free.

So he was getting all the best kids in the area and just trying to build the program of the high school and something like that because he knew all these kids are coming up. They're going to go to school here. They're going to get good. So then I would do, you know, hour half or so of youth practice. And then everybody would leave

and it would be me and my dad. And we would do, you know, squat jumps across the mat and push-ups and pull-ups. And he'd put these bands on my waist and make me take shots. And it was like extra, you know, know 45 minutes hour just us and nobody was doing that right like that that's that's what I remember and it was something where it was like he was making me do it but I

wanted to do it and I could see the correlation like I put this work in I I grind it out and do what people aren't willing to do I'm gonna get results that people aren't gonna get and so now obviously my dad he's not he's not coaching anymore but he's a guy really look up to and we more so have like a friendship type relationship where, you know, I know he's like my number one fan, number one supporter, and, you know, we can talk about pretty much anything and everything. So yeah, it was, it's really positive for me, at least that that's been my experience. So, you know, really grateful that he like cared about me so much and put that much time into me. Yeah, did, like, what would you say

on the nights you didn't want to do all that? Was there times? Yeah, yeah. Well, it would just be basically like, you want to quit? You can quit. Go ahead. Is that, that's, that's, that's, he would just put it on me, right? It would be like, if that's what you want, we can go home right now. Let's do it. He's like, I'm not going to make you do it. Loophole optics has been providing my binoculars and eyewear for the last few years. I like that it's an Oregon company, and they make such high-quality glass. That's all I've really used. And if you can't find what you're hunting, it's going to be tough to kill. So loophole optics has really played an integral part in my success these last few years.

Thank you, loophole for supporting the podcast. And then it was always me. I was going to be like crying or whatever. I'd be like, oh, I want to let's go. Let's go again. Like, don't make me go home. So he was a good motivator. Reverse psychology.

He was great at it. And I saw him, you know, just have such a big impact on so many kids. And obviously, you know, I think for the most was me, we spent the most time with me. But on so many kids like that where he would be, he would literally coach kids that had no business winning. into winning, like all the time. He would have kids that would start wrestling in high school and end up being state champions. Like, that doesn't happen just because he was,

he would teach good technique and things like that, but just mainly the motivation was like he was, that was his probably the best attribute as a coach. Yeah, but it's kind of not really fair that you got to have that good of coaching as a kid. It's like, that must be nice. See that side? Yeah, no, seriously.

So it's not fair. It's not. No, it's not. That's how I feel too. I'm like, all right, man. Like, I'm, I'm, I think that, I'm so grateful for it. I appreciate it.

But I recognize like not everybody got this. Like I was in such a fortunate position and such a fortunate place. Like there's no way I would be able to be where I'm at by myself. Like I would have, you know, who knows what I'd be doing? But all these people poured into me and it is nice. Yeah. I recognize that I'm grateful for it. But I think that for me now, I just always look back on that with gratitude. And I know I didn't do it by myself.

So I feel like I'm okay with it because I know it there's a there was a lot of effort from a lot of people that went into getting it me to this point. Well, you know, Joe and I were talking. I like coaches. You know, you talk about your dad reminded me of this. But we talked about, I think it's John Donaheher. Is that who is that Gordon Ryan's coach? Yep. Just being so obsessive and smart also.

And like just that's his whole life. Yeah. coaching and then I know was it Caleb Sanderson is that who kale Cail Sanderson at you're at Penn State is he kind of that same because he seems like a larger-than-life type figure too yeah we have very different styles I would say of coaching real quick I have a funny Danaher story so I actually had a grappling match with Gord I remember that I did a graph I'd never done any real Jiu-Jitsu in my life like as far as like competing or anything like that and so he had a couple of opponents drop out and I

I just messaged him on Instagram. I was like, yo, if you want your opponent, I got you. Like, let's do it. Yeah.

And he's like, all right. So set it up and all that. And so in my mind, I'm thinking going in, I'm like planning on winning, but I know like what I'm going up against. And so there's so many unknowns.

It's just like, I don't really know what's going to happen. I'm just planning on winning. And I don't even know what questions to ask or anything like that. I did a couple like real actual jiu jitzu practices the week before. where I had people teaching me stuff, teaching me how to defend, you know, a guillotine,

how to not get my back taking, these type of things. And so we get there, and they do a way in. And I'm like, this was, I was so dumb. I was like,

I didn't even ask about, well, wait, we're going. So I come in, I would like, 201 or 202. He's like 230. Yeah.

Like, whatever. I don't care. I'm here. And we did it at this sports bar, and then the refs and the promoter that are putting it on. They, like,

bring us into the back of the sports bar at this table and I'm sitting there and I got one of my wrestling coaches with me. It's just like us. We've never done it. We're just like, all right, let's freaking go. Whatever. And Dan and her quiz these refs and quiz the promoter for like an hour about all the rules. Because jihitsu, it's always different rules for everything. And so he's quizzing them, asking them all these questions and doing this and that. And I'm like, dude, you want to relax? I've never done jih Tudu in my life. You freaking, what the hell is going on here? But he was covering every base. Like he was like not going in unprepared or not going in thinking oh he was going to

whip me. He was like making sure that they had every single escape or out advantage this and that. And I was just like that's what I I don't really regret losing that. I regret not being as well prepared as them. So that's taught me coming into MMA. That's what the type of preparation I need to do. That's professional. And so you know I'm obviously wish I would have won. But I'm grateful for that experience because I learned a lot from kind of the way they handled things. And, because I'm just like down. I'm just like,

yo, you want to do it? Let's go. That's my personality. But, you know, I, I just appreciate the way they handled it.

It taught me a lot. Yeah. But Coach Kale is much different. Coach Kale, his coaching style is he, he isn't like analytical like that. Like Dan and her, he has,

he's more like a, talking about principles of like how we handle ourselves, you know, that type of things. Like something we always talk about. We always talk about one, you got to know what you want. So like that's that's straight from him about, you know, if you're not clear on what you want, you're just going to end up with whatever you end up with. Yeah. If you don't have a goal, if you don't have something clear in your mind, you're not visualizing, you know, you're going to get what you're going to get. And two, no from there, like, it's on you to get it. It's not on anybody else. It's your job to put the time and put the work in to go on competition day and compete and win like it's not on the coaches it's not on

your parents it's on you so like that's something that's you know that he preaches and and the last thing that he talks about that's been a huge impact on me definitely the biggest impact and really like the foundation of everything that I do is is gratitude and appreciating you know just just getting better at being grateful for as much as you possibly can like if you have a abundance mindset and you can appreciate whatever it is. Like my one teammate gives the best example and it's that he's grateful, he has dry socks. And it's, you know, if you can have that attitude,

that's going to permeate through the rest of your life, it's going to take away that victim mentality and that woes me, all this and that. It's like you're always going to get the best results. You're going to get better results, the more grateful you are, in my opinion. Like, the more you can appreciate what you have and not complain about what you don't,

like you're going to do better with it. Yeah, that makes it. sense. I mean, it does put you in a different state of mind. For sure. And then you're looking at that you're looking at why you're grateful and the positives instead of a lot of people get tricked into focusing on what they don't have, what this guy has, what what how they got screwed out of this. Right. And then yeah, when your focus is there, that's where you're going. Exactly. Yeah. So that's that's that is a great lesson. Yeah. I just know I think he was he like undefeated? Yeah. So he's the only collegiate wrestler to go undefeated.

win four national titles ever. So he was 159 and 0. He was like the guy I looked up to as a kid, Olympic gold medalist, one of the winningest coaches in college wrestling history. So he's pretty much done everything. And he's a guy I look at like definitely a big, a big mentor of mine, a guy that I look up to. And I think, you know, you can talk about his skills. You can talk about his coaching ability, his motivation, the principles that he teaches all of us. But he's just like a really good person. I think and, you know, it's not like he's a perfect person where every single thing you do is always going to make the right decision, but like, he's a guy. I just trust his intentions and I trust, um, like if he's, if he's, if he's giving me advice or if, you know,

he sees something. He's a guy that like, I just respect a whole lot. And I think, you know, he just, he brings that energy into a room, like whenever he's in, in a room, people are like, he just has that, that about him. This type of guy, like, whatever he did, whether he was a wrestler or a chess player or was in business, like he would be successful. You just know it because that's the type of person he is. Is that, I mean, you know, I've known guys not to that level of perfection like he had, you know, his career,

but there's people who you don't want to let down. Oh, yeah. You know, I mean, it's not even like you're doing what that. You just don't want to let them down. They believe in you. And the last thing you want to do is fail them. For sure. I mean, did you ever felt like you let them down?

I never felt like I let him down. You know, I, because he always made it clear that his priority was effort. It was like, that's something else he talks about as a team. He's like, we're not worried about winning and losing. We're worried about effort. Like, go have fun and give 100%. And if you do that, then we're good. You know, after that, the results will take care of themselves.

So I never felt like I disappointed him. more so there were times where I disappointed myself because I wanted something so bad that and when I didn't get it, it was really devastating. But there was one time where kind of the opposite happened and I was in a little bit, I wouldn't say it flunk, but going into the national finals my junior year, I basically got put in a situation where I was a wrestling kid from Ohio State, Penn State in Ohio State, they were neck and neck in the team championship, the team race. And whoever won between me and this kid, their team would win them as well. And he had beat me in the national finals two years earlier when I was a freshman. He was a freshman as well. So we were like big time rivals, had some bad blood and stuff. Not really like actual bad blood, but just like a big rivalry in college wrestling.

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And he comes up to me and he's like, hey, I just want to let you know, if I'd pick any guy to go out here and wrestle this match right now, I pick you. And I was like, well, let's get it then. That's what I'm talking about. And he just brought me out of that. My mentality completely changed.

Okay. And then I went out and it was a cool match. I ended up pinning him in the first period in like a super epic, like reversal. He like took me down and I kicked him through and reversed him right to his back and pinned him. And the crowd, it was in Cleveland, Ohio too. So all Ohio State fans and all the Penn State fans went nuts. And it was a really cool moment. But I just remember that specifically.

That was probably the time where I felt the most pressure for, you know, representing not only myself and team but like a whole university and uh and him you know and he he was in a year where it was like his contract was coming up at the end of the year as a coach which he i mean he had already won five pressure yeah he had won like five national titles at that point so it wasn't like he was not in threat of losing his job or anything but like it looks a lot better if we win yeah definitely so it was it was a big deal um in in that regard of like i did not i definitely didn't want to disappoint him then yeah no that just him believing in you in that moment i can understand that would alleviate the pressure.

It was big for me, like mentally, because he's a guy, like I said, when I was six, seven years old, he was the guy. That's who I was watching. You know, I had a little VHS tape. I remember it had one of those old TVs that had the VHS in the bottom of the TV, and it was a recording of the NCAA finals his senior year. And I would play it like all the time at night and I would watch. And I even got like headgear that were the same as his and stuff.

Like he was the guy to me. Where did he go to college? He went to Iowa State. Okay. So I thought I wanted to go to Iowa State, and he was coaching Iowa State, but then he coached there for a few years and then went to Penn State after. So I was like, that's where I want to be. I see. Yeah.

No, that's amazing. You know, it sounds good to say, okay, just go out there, give your best effort, have fun. But winning, it's easy to say all that. Yeah. But there's nothing like winning. I mean, when you're obsessed with winning and winning, you know, I know you were obsessed. with winning a national title, just how, oh, I did my best and had fun. That's probably not enough, is it?

So I think that sometimes you're not going to make that an excuse. You know, it's not like, okay, well, I did my best and had fun. So all good. It's like, that's your life. Like I'm going to do my best every single day with every single second I have. I'm never wasting a workout. I'm going to make sure I'm disciplined in my nutrition and my sleep and my recovery. All you can.

Yeah. So I think it more has to do with that. doesn't have to do with, oh, I go out there and whatever happens, happens. And it's all good regardless. Like, I'm coming out here to freaking win. And if you're in my way, I'm going to smash you. Like, I'm going to roll you over, bro. Like, I don't care who you are.

Like, you have, you have, like, you're just a blank face. Like, it doesn't even matter. So I have that type of mentality when competing where, like, I don't even see the guy I'm competing against. It's not even a person. Like, it's just a target. Right. And, and so that's like the mentality I take in competition.

But I know to get the best results. that it's effort-based. It's not, oh, man, well, I hope I win if the ref makes the right call or if this guy slips on a banana peel or if maybe I just feel really good today, it's like, dude, I'm going out here 100% to destroy whatever's in my way. And that's kind of more so what I mean. And for me, that's fun.

Yeah. And I look at it like this. There's been times that I've gone in competition. where I've won and I haven't been happy with my performance where I felt like, man, I, I, I didn't compete the way I wanted to. And that's really what I'm talking about is like, you know, there sometimes, you know, maybe you have a little fear in your mind. You want to get a lead and hold on or, you know, you just, you, you didn't prepare as well as you should have, things like that. That's really what I mean by effort, by basing my, um, my my I guess overall basing the result the success of the result on that versus like what winning winning and losing right like I would rather I hate to say this but I would honestly rather go out in like a UFC title flight and just freaking give it my all and like just be in an absolute battle war and do everything right everything I need to do know I was 100% prepared and and lose then go out there and kind of like coach through and maybe not compete well and win and and and just like not be myself really it's more about being being yourself right if you can be yourself then you're good and and to me like that's being competitive that's doing everything I possibly can to win in my

preparation and on that day and you know good things are going to happen I just I just believe that do you uh so you you know in that example there you said, you know, you just want to be yourself. Do you think that like the best fighters can, you know, everybody, every fighter wants to fight their best, their game plan, follow their game plan. But it seems like the most dominant champions, they dictate how the fight's going to go, right? So it's like if you do, if you train like you want, your skill sets where you want, your mind sets where you want, and then you control the fight, it's, it's, it's, uh, I don't know, that seems like a big part of it. For sure.

Because you see people maybe that are tentative, they're kind of reacting, they're worried about this or that. But the guys, like, I feel like John Jones when he fights or it could be when he fought, the fight was going to happen where they wanted it to happen. Yeah. I know it's easier said than done,

but that's always the goal, right? For sure. And I think that a big part of kind of, to kind of sum up what you just said, the way that in one word, I have a really, I know this really awesome guy's name's Christopher Maher, and he helps me a lot with just the psychological side of life and competing and also like keeping my body healthy and, you know, doing some different exercise modalities and things. But the word that he always uses and that he taught me is alignment.

Everything's aligned, right? That's in training, that's in recovery, that's in family, that's in your. your faith and your spirit and the people around you, relationships, like all that stuff is aligned. And when I look at my goals of being the pound for pound number one fighter in the world, being UFC champion, defending my belt 10 times, everything I do and all of the, that kind of comes into like my life. Like I want it to be aligned with that. And that's what I'm chasing. That's what I'm focused on right now. So I think that when you see people go out there, and compete and they look like they can't lose.

It doesn't matter how good the other person is. It's because they're more aligned maybe than that person. And maybe that's going to look differently from everybody. Everybody knows, John Jones, it's a wild dude. Like, that dude's crazy. But, you know, he would figure it out a way when it came fight night, his mind. He could align everything. Everything was aligned.

Yeah. Yeah, it didn't matter what happened the week before. Normally it's a lifestyle thing. Exactly. For me, that's what I just choose to make it my lifestyle. And that's why I feel confident every time I go out there, I'm going to kill this guy. Like it doesn't matter. Like what you got planned for me, bro. Like I'm aligned and everything here is, you know, on purpose and intentional.

Well, I think a good example of that too, just to, you know, harken on another UFC legend is Connor, when he came up, he was aligned with he was going to be champion. I mean, there was, that was, he was living in his mom's house, I think, in a spare bedroom and still saying that he was going to be champion and he's going to drive cars and he was going to buy whoever this or that and he was going to be, you know, he was aligned with that goal. And then once he got it, you know, and, you know, I'm a huge Connor fan. Of course, I'd just love to see him fight. But once he got it, that alignment, you know, then there's other interests, business interests and building an empire. And that's, hey, that's awesome. Right. That's awesome.

But it kind of changes that alignment on his focus, you know, to your point. Oh, yeah. I've thought about this before, too. There's a really famous kind of quote from him where I think somebody asked him, like where he sees himself in five years or 10 years. And I don't want to butcher it, but he says something along lines of, I see myself, you know, being world famous in the UFC, double champion, have more money than I know what to do with.

And it was like, That's exactly what you did. But what's next? Yeah. Right? So, you know, to me, that's the thing where it's like, I want to, my goal is to be the UFC champion pound for pound number one fighter in the world. When I get that, which I will, all right, now you got to reset, reset. What's my next goal?

Is my next goal continuing in fighting? Is it to, you know, am I going to have to reset and now want to become the greatest of all time? Or do I, like, what do I want? Or do I want to move on to another area to another arena? Do I want to chase even more elk? Professional bowhunter. Exactly. Yeah.

So, right? I don't know. I think that's just an important thing for everybody to ask themselves. It's like, what do you want? Right? Like, what are you chasing? You know, that documentary of Connor, that was so inspiring because it showed that whole journey and it freaking happened.

It's crazy. I like seeing stuff like that. Oh, it was, I don't know. I've watched that. documentary because I was at the fight where he beat Diaz the second time and he he came through in the back and he's on crutches because he was doing leg kicks that was the biggest thing is as Nate had his leg has his leg out there a lot and so but uh connor's leg got beat up you know from landing all those leg kicks and he was coming by on crutches and he was saying doubt me now doubt me

now because he had lost yeah obviously the time before and was just in another war But it's just like, so I watch that because he comes walking right by where we were in the back. And I didn't watch this for that. I watched because I love the story. But it's just it gave an extra incentive for me to care about that film. But so powerful. Yeah. Because when he had nothing and no reason to believe any of that would happen, he was saying it.

For sure. Yeah. I think that's such a cool thing that, you know, in this life, in this world, it doesn't matter really where you start. I believe, like, if you set your mind to something, if somebody really makes a decision, like, this is what I want, I think the universe conspires to, like, make it happen, you know, because there's other moving parts that are factored into that, right? Like, you know, maybe Connor, imagine if Connor never got a shot in the UFC, right? Like, he just kept winning in Cage Warriors or maybe he lost another fight there and, you know, just never got a shot or got, you know,

off track. You know, there's a lot of different things that could have happened, but he was so clear on it. He had so much clarity that that's what happened. And you hear stories like that all the time where, you know,

somebody comes from nothing and whatever their goal was, whether it's in athletics and business and whatever, and like they just make it happen. Those are my favorite type of stories. Me too. Yeah, too.

Just because you know every day and I'm assuming with you, I don't know. I don't know what your mindset is every day, but I can speak for me. So my goal was to this bow and bow hunt giant bowls is what I'd and I would think about it every single day. And so what was I doing that day to give me to the goal of hunting giant bulls and, you know, the most famous elk hunting mountains in the world? And it's like if that is your focus every single day and it never waivers, there is no limit.

For sure. Yeah, I feel the exact same way. Yeah. I think that. So every day you're focused on your goal of pound for pound number one. Every day you're working towards that. For sure. Yeah, that singularity.

And I think for me at least, as I've gotten older, I've learned that that looks different every day. Like someday it might be, bro, we're going to take morning workout afternoon afternoon workout. We're going to freaking get after it. You're going to kill yourself. And you're probably going to feel pretty terrible. But this is what it takes. And then the next day it might be, hey, listen, hop in that cold tub, getting that sauna, go get a massage, go to the Cairo, be disciplined, take care of yourself. It might be, okay, it's 10 p.m. You got to go to bed. Oh, you know, we're keeping our nutrition, right.

There's so much stuff that goes into it. And I think that as I get older and more mature and just see more, I'm always adding to that of what that looks like. what I know is helping me, what I know is helping me push me forward and what I think's hurting me and I'm kind of like discarding that, right? And I just think most people probably aren't willing to do that. You know, they're not willing to be consistent like that. But I'm fortunate that I've had great examples of people that have achieved great things and gone about it a certain way. And that everybody that I'm around has very similar mentality.

Like I still live near Penn State. I'm around all the all the wrestlers. I'm around, you know, the guys that are that are fighting and competing with me. They have that mentality and everybody's kind of on that that narrow path, which that's the type of people I want to surround myself with because that's the type of lifestyle I want to live. And so, you know, at the end of the day, it's like on me to make decisions for myself, but it does make it nice knowing other people are kind of on that same path to you.

Yeah, I, you know, thinking about that too, and I don't know in person. but it seems like Khabibib, every day lived that life, you know, and he would say himself, he didn't care about the money, you know, he got a lot of money, obviously, but he, you know, would go back home to his mom and dad before his dad died, but go back home and was very

just dedicated to his faith. You know, I didn't understand the faith at first or his dedication to it. Now I've watched more and learned a little more, and it's like he seems very dedicated to that, but it seems like he never wavered, when his path was to be the number one pound for pound fighter never wavered for sure never was distracted for sure never went out and partied right never you know do the you know took time off or maybe he took

time off but didn't seem like it right yeah you know that's definitely a guy that i look at and it's hard when you're from a completely different side of the world and completely different culture and really like competitive right like i'm here i'm not i'm not representing America. I'm representing USA wrestling and, you know, my family and my people, like I want to win for myself, but I want to win for them too. And then I see somebody coming over, you know, from Russia and, you know, and essentially doing what I want to do. And at first, I feel like I was like, I wouldn't actively, I never really actively root against anybody, but I cheer for the Americans. And so, you know, there was times where I was like, kind of

wanted him to lose. But the more that I listened to him in interviews and got to know him, I'm like, wow, this dude's like very similar to myself, like, you know, different culture, different religions, but I respect everything that he's doing and everything that he has done because I can draw so many parallels to the way that I want to live my life. And I feel like, you know, somebody like that is a great regardless of where they're from or, you know, what religion. Like, he's a good role model, like, just based off of what I've heard him say and the type of person he is and things like that nature. Like, you have to respect it, you know, regardless of whether your competitors or not.

And I think there's a ton to learn from. And like I said, just a lot of respect that way. And that's why I want to compete against the, the, the, the Pakistani guys. I've said this a lot in public, but those are the guys that I look at as the biggest threat. And I don't want to dodge him. I don't want to sling around and then, you know, fight this guy, fight that guy. And then like find the easiest, the path of least resistance to the belt. Like, I want to beat the best guys. So if these guys are the best guys, coming for you. Yeah. And it's not like a, it's not like a negative thing. Like,

I don't really wish all on them. Like, I'm just, I want to beat. Yeah. I get that. You know, I, you know, as you said, you, the more you learn about him and that lifestyle, the more you respect it. You know, I listen to, I listened to a lot of podcasts about fighting. I just, like I said, I'm a fan, but I listened to Bilal Muhammad talk about training over there. And I think he trained there for five weeks or something. And it was like the hardest thing he's ever done. And then I was thinking, man, so you're a professional fighter. And that five weeks was the hardest you've ever done. And they've been doing that for years. Right. I mean, it's kind of like, what we talked about with your wrestling experience. How could you

ever make that up. They, Kabid had been doing that for 20 years probably. Yeah. So that was huge. And then also I heard, I can't remember where I heard it, but, you know, Khabib is a, as a coach or a trainer, he would, you know, if the guys came in and looked tired or, or, you know, maybe they, I don't know, I can't remember what it was, but he wouldn't let him spar. Right.

Or he'd take their phone away. Yeah. You know. Because they're sleeping. They must have been up too late on their phone. So he wouldn't let him spar if they didn't get a good night's rest or if they were or take their phone away and then they'd spar only when they were well rested. I mean, that is like because when I think of, you know, Russians or Dagestanis, I think about tough, no excuses. But to me, that was like another level of understanding the game or the business or the just what what you guys do to know that it doesn't pay off to push your body to your brain or your mind that way.

it's it's all about timing it's about being in tune definitely yeah there's there's absolutely a right way to train and a in a incorrect way to train it's not it's not it's not all just go go go every time sometimes the best thing for you is is is rest and recovery and as a guy who you know is tough and that's just like the mentality of most guys like oh you know don't be a wuss this and that like you got you know and other people say that but they're in my in my opinion if you look at our bodies, if you look at physiology and science and research, you know, there's a certain way to go about it that's correct. And that's going to be even harder to do than just to be tough all the time. And of course, we're going to be tough all the time. Like that, that's, that's almost,

it's a prerequisite. It's a prerequisite. Like, you're not going to be, yeah, you're not going to be, okay, you're not, you're not, you're not going to be in that position if you're not tough. But being tough looks different depending on the situation. Like, for example, for me with my training camps, the last few weeks I'm tapering down. And that's when I want to be doing the most. And that's tough in its own way. It's so tough because I leave practice and I'm like, well, sometimes I'm like, okay, did I do what I need to be doing? Sometimes I'm like, dang, I want to do more, but I know this is part of the plan.

And this is, and it's not, I'm not doing this randomly. I'm not, I'm doing this based on research based on tons of evidence and tons of people that have come before me and done what I want to do. So who I mean who came up with this for you so I work with Sam Calveda in training lab And I've been working with him since I was in college in addition to that you know Is that that did TJ use him? Yeah yeah so we there's a bunch of fighters and wrestlers that yeah Aaron I use coach Cal I think yeah yeah yeah so coach Cal is like literally a full-blown genius like he's so so so on the in the know and on the cutting edge of anything to do with physiology and training. I trust him wholeheartedly with anything. And not just because of my results, but because of I don't even know how many Olympic gold medalists, MMA champions that he's worked

with and who all those guys just take it to another level as far as the commitment outside of training, outside of the cage, right? Like that type of stuff is why I trust him. And in addition to that, like Penn State Wrestling has worked with him for over a decade. He's been good friends with one our coaches for probably 25 years. So there's a lot of kind of that goes into like me making that decision and knowing I'm getting the correct information. It's not just okay, I started working with this dude and I think it's going to be good. Like I'm not guessing. I know he's not guessing and I've worked with him for a long time. So I know how I feel. And a lot of times it's harder to do less. Right. But I know like I'm here to perform on Saturday night. Right. At UFC,

whatever number like that's the goal like you know so I'm not gonna let my little pride of feeling like I need to do more in training like getting the way of that like it's a battle but yeah yeah I understand there's a science to it it is and I just trust that I just trust that and I feel like uh I've had enough results for me personally that I know it's the right thing so that makes it easier yeah that's interesting I love that part of it it's uh you know you guys are put in the biggest spotlight and expected to perform flawlessly. And it's like with so much at stake, I have so much respect for all the fighters.

And of course, I have opinions. I love weighing in on stuff. But I don't know shit. I just love, I loved, I mean, I love your mindset. I mean, in how you look at it. That to me is like, I mean, the winning mindset, I don't know, you need both. You need the ability to win.

And then also you need that mindset. Yeah. You got to both. Well, I appreciate that. Yeah. So we'll switch gears to hunting. What drew you to? Is it bow hunting or just hunting in general?

What do you love? Bow hunting. Yeah. Bow hunting is what I love. I mean, I do some like upland bird hunting and stuff like that, but it's really just kind of filler. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Like archery, though, is like number one for me. You know, bow hunting, being out there in the mountains, knowing I got to be right up close to this animal. That's like what it is for me. But really, I was, this was maybe three-ish years ago. I was thinking about, I graduated from college and stuff and I was kind of moving into, I guess, real life figuring out what I want to do. And, you know, I have stuff going on with my career in fighting, stuff going on in business. But I wanted something else that was like a passion for me. It's something that I was really excited. to do that that kind of aligned and matched up with the rest of of my life and something I could

pursue and want to improve on and get better at and you know so I golfed for a little bit and I was like eh I don't know if I can know it's for old rich guys yeah yeah I was like I don't know this for me and then I actually I saw you on Instagram and uh I had some you know hunters my family my grandpa my dad hunted some but I was always wrestling during hunting season so It was never something I did growing up. But I saw you on Instagram and I was like, okay, this looks sick. I'm interested in this and, you know, just seeing you on the driveway shooting or running or killing massive bulls, started watching YouTube videos. And I wanted to make sure this was something I was really sure about.

So I took probably six months and didn't, didn't like go to archery shop, didn't like do anything just like kind of thought about it and kept watching film and stuff. And then after that, I was like, all right, let's do this. So I contacted the guy I knew, and he said, you need to go to the Lancaster Archery, get you set up. It's like the best bow shop in the area. So I went over to Lancaster Archery. They hooked it up. They set me up. And at that point, it was late summer.

And I was like, yeah, I'm all in on this. But I know the type of work that you do. I know, like, all right, I'm not going to be able to shoot some arrows for a month. And then go, go, like, I'm not going to be ready. Right. And I took a whole year. and then after that year then I was like

all right I'm a hunt white tail so I had my first bow hunting success I killed a white tail in West Virginia yeah on the ground public land by myself which was really cool I was like super pumped about it yeah and I didn't really know like

I knew so I never had like experience right like I'd done some hunting before that with a rifle like the year before I was like okay I want to hunt I'm not ready to do archery yet so I'm gonna like a hunt with a rifle. And I killed a bull that first year shot at like in Colorado shot at like 220 yards.

And it was awesome. I was like super pumped. But I knew like the goal is bow hunting. And so then the next year had some success, white tail. And then this year, this was the year that the first try was like full like all in like set in time side, really committing to it.

And you had success. Yeah, I did. Yeah. Killed a bull. Yeah. Kill the bull. It was sick. That's impressive.

Yeah, it was fun, man. I feel like really lucky, really grateful that I'm able to kind of set my schedule with what I do, right? Like after my fight in the summer, Rogan interviewed me, I'm like, listen, don't call me in September because I'm going to be in the mountains. And I'm fortunate to do that. So I feel really, really grateful. But it's definitely something to me that it aligns a lot with my mentality, with fighting, with I'm going to get out what I put in. and I know that if I am better prepared, like I'm going to be, the better prepared I am, the more chance of success I'm going to have.

Of course, there's a wild animal on the other end of that equation that, you know, but I try to do everything I can to factor everything in and put myself in good position to have success. And I'm really addicted. Yeah, well, it's fun. I mean, you're a great shot. We were at the bow rack and, you know, you, they were shooting your bow. We're making sure everything was dialed in just right.

and yeah I mean you obviously have put arrows down range I need to work you know more I feel like I get in a groove and I start you know shooting shooting better and stuff like that but I'm really still figuring it out to me it's like the same as my career in the UFC like I'm learning so much trying to improve trying to get better and that's why I feel really grateful to have been able to come here and hang out with you for the day go to the bow rack get you know good information because there's so much information out there it's yeah it can be overwhelming for somebody that's a beginner and that's how I feel about myself like I'm just I'm a beginner I'm trying to learn trying to improve get better and uh put put more time in you know because that that's what

it is to me I know if with with my mentality and discipline I put the time in I'm keep shooting keep getting better keep learning putting myself in situations hunting where I I you know have opportunities to learn and just experience things then you know the goal is just like be like you and just freaking kill it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you, I have no doubt because what stood out to me in talking about that your hunting experience is like how intentional you were because a lot of people they would get a bow and they would shoot for a month and then they'd go out and expect to kill a big bowl with that bow. And you understand that no, I haven't put in the work. You're very intentional about your timeline, about your goals and also about that, you know, you're still learning a lot.

you know, at the bow rack today. So there's so much, I mean, I learn every day. I learn every time I go hunting. I don't. And so when you have that mindset that you, that there's so much to learn, it's so much different than having the mindset of, oh, I know it. I've done this before. You're never learning then.

Right. Right. So, I mean, I love your intentionality and I love your, the mindset is like, hey, this is, you know, I'm just trying to get better every day. I'm trying to learn every day. You will be, you know, killing. more bulls than me in no time. I don't know about that.

This is pretty crazy. Oh, I've been, you're 28. Seven. Yeah, so I've been doing it longer than you've been alive. Yeah. I've had a little bit of a head start. Right. Yeah.

So like 35 years of Bow, honey. Jeez. That'll do it. Yeah, I didn't, you know, a spot in stock, or I mean, a on the ground white tail, your first year, that's impressive, dude. So I'm not trying to, like, talk about, you know, myself, but I do feel like God's blessed me with some type of like talent and I don't know if you'd call it luck, but I've seemed to just get a lot of opportunities at animals. And I think that

all my training and fighting and wrestling and feeling that pressure really prepares me for those situations because like, you know, when I get in a situation where I have a shot at an animal, you know, a lot of people are, yeah, I'm sure. And I feel like very calm, very relaxed. Like I've, I've, I've been here before. I don't, I don't feel like I had those beginner jitters. Right. That most people probably would.

So I've been really fortunate. Like I pretty much, you know, been able to kill like quite a bit, right? Like I said, my first year was just training and I shot a bull with a rifle.

The next year, I got a white tail, and then I got a mule deer with a rifle. And then this year, I was able to have, you know, quite a bit of success.

Got a mule deer with my bow. turkey with my bow and then a bull with my bow all in the same month, which was pretty fun. That's awesome. So I feel really, you know, like, I think maybe some people like have that. I've read some statistics where it's like 90% of animals get killed by like 10% of hunters and things like that. So whatever it is, I think that I have good, good instincts, but again, it's about

getting better and proven. There's always going to be, for me, it's going to be a learning experience. It's going to be, you know, a lot of growth. improving and maybe I'll get like this one day. Yeah, you know, you know who doesn't like your ability to get it done is the 90% who don't kill. Right. I believe that. It's probably not the most fun. Yeah, yeah. They don't like looking at the new guy killing all the stuff. Yeah. It's like, oh, must be nice. He gets to hunt wherever. Yeah. It's like, dude, well, grow up. Yeah. No, I think, you know, that dealing with pressure is a big part because it's like the moment. The moment.

can be too big for people too much you know you think about it all year and you visualize it and then it's there and that bull's coming in screaming that's intense it is and people do shit the bed oh i mean it's just it's just the way it goes and reps help that yeah but also that mindset you know like no this is this is what i do when you have the attitude of this is what i do changes everything Definitely. Yeah, that's for sure my attitude. And I feel like it's the same as when I'm fighting. I mentioned this earlier, but like when I see a guy's face or his body or wherever I'm trying to hit, like that's just a target. It's not even like a real person. It's just a target. And so I have it, I don't know if it's like this with you, but when I have an animal come out, it's like just the vitals. Like I don't look at, look at the rack. I don't look at anything else. It's just like where is my, where is my arrow need to go? And it becomes almost. you just zone in right things happen slow like my my last bull in archery I killed I was drawn back for like a minute 15 seconds I didn't even know really I had no idea and I just in that zone yeah I timed it on the phone and I was like wow it's drawn for a long time but I had no idea yeah and you know made a good shot and stuff but it's just like for some reason I can just turn off that emotion and that kind of almost like human feeling of panic it's like no all it is is is me and this target. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, I mean, that is kind of a superpower. I mean, because essentially you're eliminating distractions and you're staying focused on the goal. That sounds so easy and it's so hard. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can only do it because I spent 20 plus years having to do that exact thing in my,

in my sport, right? Like that's what I had to do. And there was a lot of loss and a lot of times where I failed that has allowed me to be able to, like, be at and have the mindset to be able to do that right like it's not like i don't think people just get up out of bed and do it right like i just apply what i've put same principles yeah the same principles yeah yeah that it makes sense i mean it's a proven formula um well okay so what we're going to do is uh we're going to eat some elk chili yeah so that's kind of good right but i did want to just tell people you know what because i know you have a podcast going what as far as

the bow nickel brand what's going on right now where can people check you out yeah so i got a podcast it's uh nickels and dimes have it on youtube and uh Spotify and just me and my buddy anthony who's another fighter just chopping it up chatting about mindset and things like that and uh yeah you can you can get me on social media at on instagram no bickle one and then i'm on twitter as well uh but yeah come uh come watch some fighting watch some hunting that's pretty much what i'm to so growing steaks here and there. Perfect.

Well, I can't wait to see your next fight. Thank you, man. I can't wait to fight. Yeah, they've been pretty short. So it's like people just get just a small taste and then you win. Yeah. And then it's like, God, this guy, I want to see if all this hype's real, but he wins too quick.

Hopefully we'll keep it that way for a couple more at least. Yeah, I know. Well, I'm a big fan. I have no doubt you're going to achieve your dreams because you have for 27 years. So yeah, again, thank you for coming. You're a true outlier. That's who I want to talk to. That's who I want to learn from.

And I feel like I too learn from your mindset. And I can apply it to what I do, which is the goal of this show. So thank you for coming to Springfield, Oregon and hanging out today. Absolutely. Thank you. Appreciate you having me on. All right. We'll catch you next time.

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