Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 058 - Michael Waddell

Episode Date: February 9, 2024

Join us for a discussion with Michael Waddell, host of Bone Collector, hunter, guide and family man from the backwoods of Georgia! Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Connect with Michael: https://www.michaelwaddell.com/  Thank you to our sponsors: Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv  Ketone IQ: https://hvmn.com/CAM use code CAM for 20% Eight Sleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/cam use code CAM for $200 off & free shipping on the Pod Cover MUD\WTR: https://mudwtr.com/cam use code Cam for 15% off  Black Rifle: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first Order MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping Timestamps: 0:00:00 Intro: Who is Michael Waddell 0:02:51 How Michael & Cam Met 0:06:23 Michael’s TV Personality 0:10:20 Forming Brotherhood’s in Hunting 0:15:35 The Growth of Fame & Bone Collector 0:28:36 Losing Friends: The Frustrations of Success 0:27:12 Something Bigger Than “Michael Waddell” 0:34:20 “There’s Enough Cake For Everybody” 0:37:26 The Friends You Meet at the Top 0:41:58 Being a Role Model & Mentor 0:48:27 The Young Up-And-Coming Guys 0:52:35 Is Social Media the Death of Hunting? 01:02:12 Recognizing What People Need 01:06:08 You Never Forget the Negatives 01:08:24 What Kind of Hate Michael Got 01:14:27 Old Pictures & Being A Student of the Hunt 01:19:33 Never Forget Where You Came From 01:25:05 Hard Work & Dedication 01:29:06 Working With Brands 01:30:03 The American Dream 01:40:31 Bet on Yourself  01:46:59 Where Michael’s Competitive Drive Came From 01:53:53 The Pain From Losing A Mother: The Elk Story 02:02:48 Using Heartbreak to Grow & The “Why Me” Mentality  02:06:47 The Biggest Threat to the Future in Hunting 02:11:27 The Score Really Doesn’t Matter 02:18:00 Outro

Every step I take I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel. Gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I move it's so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. We're on the Keep Hammering Collective with Michael Waddell.

How you doing? Doing good, buddy. So glad to be here, man. Oh, dude, I'm telling you, this is, I don't know, when I think about this whole journey of being a hunter, right, from where I started. And then I'll just fill the people in here listening. Because a lot of people, I mean, a lot of my followers are hunters, but a lot of them aren't either.

So Michael Waddell, from my perspective, and I don't know what you think, but like came on to the scene in the outdoor industry, the hunting industry specifically. And like your personality was like one of a kind, right? And so on camera, and I don't know. I'll mention a few different things, but like Michael was like made for entertaining and a great hunter. So there's a lot of good hunters that aren't made for TV type thing. Like don't just don't. It's hard.

It's hard. And you got on camera and everybody was just like couldn't get enough. And so I'll just get the Cliff Notes version. But like there's this award show for that outdoor industry called the Golden Moose Awards. You hosted it. I don't know how many times. I forget. It was quite a few, which I used to be so nervous.

Nobody realized how nervous I was doing that. But so good. I mean, you were so, like, made for that. And I mean, I wouldn't say I was jealous, but I was just like, God, dang, this guy is so good. And you had the show road trips, which, you know, back in the day, Hunters, we had one shot to be on TV pretty much as outdoor channel. Right. And you had road trips on there. which was like at its peak was that was must watch TV.

I think was a Sunday nights? It was Sunday nights. I think it was 9.30 Eastern. So 6.30 out here. Yeah. And it was you didn't miss it. This was before like DVR, at least that I had. And it's like, I loved that show.

I loved watching you interact with these people. And I mean, it was, I don't know, you're just like, I don't know, it's the best I've seen as far as entertaining outdoor TV. You know, we love adventure. And most hunters aren't expected to be like movie stars, but you were. And it was just like, I don't know, I think it, honestly, it changed the industry. I mean, that changed hunting TV, your presence and your show. That's so flattering because it is crazy looking back.

And it's a crazy how when my career, when my career first started getting that, have a chance to get goal. and that's where you're in, I met. And immediately, you can tell we had a lot of respect for each other and got to laughing and cutting up. I remember you coming through, you were hunting out in Colorado. Yeah. I was to, if I remember, I think Red Aiken's a country singer's in camp, and you and I both, we've always shot Hoyt Bowes. And so Mike Looper's in camp and we come by and hung out. And I remember that was the first time you told me, you said, dude, man, I've been watching road trips.

Like, dude, you really been watching it? Yeah. He said, no, man, I watch it all the time. And then you said, and then a lot of people don't know this, you were the first person ever to write a super cool article about me at the time. And then you got me on the cover of Eastman's journal. Dude, and I was like, unbelievable. And my wife just framed that the other day. She found a bunch of old magazines and framed it and put it in like a similar to what you got here.

I called the man room, you know. And so, man, it just rekind a lot of, a lot of memories. And so, yeah, what you were saying about road trips and the personality stuff, man, that means a lot because I was nervous. I think the biggest thing for me, I was, you know, coming from the South, man, we're shit kickers and funny, cutting up, you know, the old Southern cliches, everything's, you know, spoken metaphors and similes and analogies. I mean, he very rarely is just a yes or no. Right. Big story. Oh, hell, it's, you know, it's raining cats and dogs.

It's just a toad floater, you know, a turd floater, whatever. It's always, and so I realized that, man, I was pretty country. And so when I first had a chance to start hanging out and video and then helping guide some of the hunters that was on these shows back in those TNN, ESPN days. And then when I had a chance to, every once in a while I'd get a chance to hunt, man, I would try to clean up everything. I was trying to speak different. And deep down, I was just boiling with excitement.

and I think it was real tree road trips that gave me the first opportunity that I just realized, hey man, just be yourself. You don't have to run a popularity contest. Yeah. Just have fun. And from that,

I met a lot of other people like to have fun, but I also met a lot of people that was very serious and passionate about it. And so we learned to combine the two. And so it's been really cool. And I think, you know,

if you look at our paths and look at what we've done in our lanes, it's been amazing because I've certainly kept up with everything. that you've been doing. And it's funny, I brag, like I'll name drop the Cameron Hames name.

I'm, man, I know Cameron Hames. Man, we go way back, you know. And so it's really cool. And so I've heard kind of things you said about me too. And so it's kind of cool to look back and think about that we've almost around the same time period started getting this opportunity. And yet how humble we were, but exactly the same. Like when I watch what you do, you can see the confidence in both of us.

but there's this humility as well. Whether you run in a marathon or, you know, toting a deer out, you know, I'm sitting there thinking, I know, I know Cameron can get a truck closer, but I just know Cameron enough to know it's like, why. You know, I'm got to, I did this and I'm going to get this sucker out my way. And I love that. And so inevitably, man, I don't know. I guess blessed is the best way I can come up with it.

Man, we've been pretty blessed to be in this space alone. So lucky. It's a, but I just know like being out here, out west and then you in the south there, I would, I would see what you're doing. And everybody else was seeing it too because what happens in probably any industry is when somebody has success, people are like, okay, that's a blueprint. So what I saw, when I say you change an industry, you changed how hunting TV, it was, it was a bunch of just regular guys hunting. And then you brought this personality. and then I saw a lot of people like, oh, I got to be like him.

And you can't be like somebody. Right. You're like yourself. They're like them. If you got the it factor, not very many people have the it factor. So I saw a lot of people, you know, trying to smoke that joke or trying to do, come up with the, like you said, the one-liners. Right. To you, it was just natural.

Never thought about it. I didn't even mean to say it. You didn't practice in the mirror? No, never, never, man. You're right, though. It's like, man, I look back, even, I look back on some of that. Even now, I'm like, man, what a goofball. What, why did I say that?

What was I thinking? But as you know, when you hunt or you achieve a goal, who knows what you're going to say? It's almost like, it's like, you know, with the NFL players when they score a touchdown. Yeah. I'm convinced that some of those athletes going to look back at those dances they did in the end zone. was like, that was so dumb. And so I did it so many times just with animals or be there with a buddy. And like, I mean, if I could have athletically done a backflip,

I would have probably backflipped all the way to some of these elk, you know. But I was just, I don't know, I was just young having fun. And in reality, I think that's it. You know, you kind of keep a youthful energy. And my theory, too, and I can't say I always thought this way, but when I saw the success of road trips is it hit me. I was like, wait a minute. we are videoing and putting content out there, you know, at the time on a linear network that, like you said, you had to tune in 9 o'clock.

You couldn't record it unless you had to set the VCR. Right. You know, it was kind of like us watching Dukes of Hazard and Dallas back in the day. You had to be there. You had to be sitting right there. And so inevitably in my mind, I remember one thing I got to thinking is like, wait a minute, we do have to form some type of entertainment, whether it's in humor, whether it's in ability to shoot, whether it's in the first. footage that we get, whether it is, you know, literally me trying to follow you up the mountain knowing that I can't keep up, you know, and us laughing about it.

And you end up having toke me up. I mean, so in my mind, none of it was fake, but it was just real adventures of young men at the time, which now we're close in age. Now we're growing up. But we're still having fun like a kid. So now that's my idea, is the entertainment is it's like one Huckleberry thing. and Tom saw your, you know, excursion. And I think that's certainly, you know, when I look at, especially, you know,

you and Joe hunt a lot, Rogan, you can still see that. You see grown men who got a lot on their shoulders, but that moment in time you chase an elk is serious, but you become a 12-year-old. Yeah. And you're laughing and you're saying things and you're fired up. You make a good shot. It's real. It's just being real.

And so much of life is you're putting on an act, I don't know, I don't want to say everybody, but a lot of people put on an act. I have to, you know, because you're real. you want to just whatever it's just how it works but it's so real in the woods in the mountains you know it's just like you're hunting if you're sharing that with somebody you have a share a common goal it means so much to us correct and then we have a new whatever buddy or somebody you're exposing it to or somebody maybe who just shares those same the same passions you do but uh yeah it's like there's no there's no more real time than when you're in the mountains or in the woods

like where you are. And I do, somebody did leave a, oh yeah, so this ties into this. How can you, how can men find friendship like Rogan Haynes or a brotherhood, you know, calling your, the bone collector brotherhood? I know you've said that a lot. And to me, I would say the reason why that bond happens is because it's so real. Have you experienced that? 100%.

Matter of fact, to a point that I do think as we are, man-childed. That's my wife. She calls all of us and all my friends. She said, y'all just a bunch of mans children. And I said, wait a minute, that's the best compliment you could give us. I mean, it's not like we're shucking responsibility. We all have homes and businesses and things to manage. However, you're right.

I think when you get out and you hunt and you just enjoy the outdoors, camps, campfires, when we look around and I was admiring here in this, you know, this podcast room, I was admiring all your trophies. And as I was looking through the trophies, I saw a picture of you and I in 2004. Well, similar to this room, I have a trophy room and some of my favorite animals and I have some pictures and different things.

And I got to thinking, it's like, man, what's more important these styrofoam stuff with elk hides and antlers, but the real trophies are these pictures and these relationships, these stories, and these fun times and how do we get it? And so all of it, the animal is certainly a challenge, but I do think sometimes the hunting industry misses that brotherhood part of it

if you're just one-dimensionally desiring a huge animal. And I think that we're seeing it more and more in a world that's so connected, you can also get disconnected. So there's nothing better than to just go on a hunt. Like we were talking about all the things we like, you know, whether it's elk hunting or squirrel hunting, there's really nothing that really that I could think that we could go do. It might be an animal that, you know, we could say,

hey, man, let's all call Rogan, and I call Blake Shelton, what else get Ronella, and let's all go musk ox hunting. Well, we might all be like, a musk ox. Okay, that's all Tom Miranda hunt them and Jim Shockey. But immediately the reason we'd want to go is like, dude, can you imagine all of us? and the jokes, the sarcasm, the seriousness, the talks about family, the journey. The sharing, the whole part of it, not just the kill. Yes, and you almost forget.

I mean, you didn't even mention the kill. You don't even mention the kill. And at the end of it, because we do have confident in our ability to shoot our bows or our ability to, you know, whatever it is we're hunting, it takes a back seat. And so it took me a little while to truly understand that, but it was early into that road trips where I look back and I'm like, oh my goodness, nobody even, I think the biggest compliment I ever got is the fact that nobody even really knows what I've shot. Like, you know, it was talking about elk and, you know, or animals or they'll say, you know,

man, when are you going to hunt public ground? Because they look at us as just kind of slapstick and having fun, myself, Nick and T-bone, and I'm thinking, man, all of my big elk could come from public ground. But I never talked about hunting the public ground. It was just some stupid something Nick Munt was doing around a campfire or dressed up like Elvis and going to the local cafe and being deer tracker. So that's what we highlighted more. And so in reality, you're not even thinking about the animal shot.

You're thinking about, man, them guys are either crazy or maybe they don't like us or maybe it would be fun to hang in camp. And through that, you create a brotherhood. And then I see that with you and, and your friends that you hunt with religiously. And everybody's got a different vibe. Everybody's got a different threshold of excitement and seriousness. And some people can be over the top.

Some people can kind of stay very, you know, serious with the hunt. And for me, I just kind of like it all. I like to not know where it's going to take me. I like the challenge as you do to, you know, maybe I'm going to walk 100 yards a day. but that hundred yards might turn into 10 miles and I'm thinking, holy cow, why didn't I not start running with Cameron when he invited me?

Why didn't I pump some iron with him? Why did I not? Now I'm sitting over here, the Swiss cake up roll leader and I'm like, oh my God, I'm huffing and puffing, but I didn't know that journey was going to take me that far that day. So sometimes you set out and you never know where it's going to take you, but through it all,

you come back and you're really talking about your friends and think about what we were doing last night at dinner with your wife and family. we're talking about all these relationships. I thought about it when I was going to bed. We didn't even talk about what we'd shot. I didn't ask you like, Cameron, how was your year last year? What did you shoot?

It was like, dude, how was this? How was that? Well, tell me about this. How's this going? And we're catching up on old times. But talking about the new stuff, but it was mostly relationships. Yeah. So, yeah, our biggest trophy room is the people we've met in the brotherhood of men and women

that we've had a chance to be in camp with, I think. Yeah, yeah. I definitely do, too. I had, I did want to read something. So I was, I did a little Wikipedia type search and it's like, well, what came also was like, Michael Waddell's net worth, which I'm not going to say that. Because who knows? Those things are crazy. I mean, I read some crazy stuff about me.

But I did like this part. It says one of the questions was, and I don't know if this AI, I don't know these articles come from. But I like this. It says, Mike, what sets Michael Waddell apart from other hunting personalities? And this is what they said on there. Waddell's authenticity, passion, and storytelling abilities, set him apart from others in the hunting industry, his ability to connect.

And, God, I can't even read my writing. Yeah, on a personal level combined with his expertise has made him a beloved figure. So that, yeah, that, I mean, and that's spot on. Because, like, that's what I saw. I remember going to the shows and you guys, you know, would have this line. But you created this brand.

that's another tangent I want to go on. As we started off in this industry and we're like, man, at first it was like, I remember I got a letter from NAP and they were going to send me some broadheads in a hat. I was just like, God. Yeah, free? Exactly. This is free. And then you started getting a little money.

And then you're like, oh, wait, this is, we just do this because we love it. And then all of a sudden, you see that there's value in what we do. and you know we're if you're got a businessman mindset it's not taking away from what we love but it's just like you look at through different lens and so you have all these attributes what make you special and stand out and then how did the bone collector thing come about because then it was like again this is from the outside i'm on the west you're in the south and i'll just say that people dreamed of being michael wadd because you were having fun you were you were you were you were you know I don't know, just, just everybody wants to be your buddy.

It seemed like nobody wants to be me because I'm out here running a million miles a day. And they're just like, no, that sucks. But I could be this guy. So how did that whole journey translate into bone collector? And oh, the point I was going to make was I would see bone collector on freaking everything. Yeah. You just like your vision blew up. Tell me about that.

It was crazy because like I say, when you go back to when, you and I kind of broke into industry. Obviously, you was an editor, writing, you was already running and doing that type of stuff as far as fitness. However, that was before it was super cool. Well, same would kind of outdoor TV as I was making it. Nothing was really personality-based. I would say the reason we had to make a personality basis because we didn't really have a budget.

So if everybody was going to the incident, they just ranch to hunt deer in South Texas, we would get to do that maybe, you know, once every once in a while. Because of money. Because of money. Because it's a premium hunt. Premium hunts cost money. Cost money or just to travel to get there. So David Blanton, who has worked at Realtrey, he was a producer.

Our show at the time was on TNN, which becomes Spike TV, which evolved into Real Tree Outdoors, was on, become ESPN RealTree Outdoors. And so it was just when Outdoor Channel was coming on. So it was David Blanton's idea like, hey, Waddell. why don't you do a show over here, or we should do a show. I wasn't signed up to try to host it, but it would come road trips. And I explained this idea because every time I was around a camp, whether it was outdoor riders, I remember early on Jim Shockey coming to some of those camps

and people like Larry Wysoon and country singers. I remember like Dale Earnhardt coming, we'd hunt with him. And we would do these shows, and they were good. But I do remember, like, as soon as we turned those big beta cameras off and turned the lights off, campfire, All of a sudden, there's Dale Earnhardt, The Intimidator, you know, sipping on a little whiskey or drinking a cold beer out of a solo cup and Mark Chestnut playing Hank Jr. And I'm a 22-year-old kid and my head's exploding. Like, oh, my God, I just had a chance to hang all week.

And there's Larry Weissan talking about rattling and, you know, they'd be Jim Zumbo and these legendary writers. And literally I was just freaking out. But I remember thinking because we're not covering all this stuff. We're not video. So that kind of was born, the idea of a real true road trips, kind of behind the scenes. And too. But with that, it wasn't like the number one thing was what could we go shoot in the trophy animals? It could be like, hey, go frog gigging.

Why don't you call it Cameron Haynes and y'all go frog gigging? Well, we could have a lot of fun. So it was based and derived that it had to have some entertainment. and otherwise it wouldn't survive just on the animal itself, even though we ended up really being successful on some pretty big animals, elk and moose and different things. However, so anyway, through road trips, that success was there. But they become an immediate, I wouldn't say rub, but a problem.

And you and I talked about this a little bit, and I was working at Realtree. Well, then I started having opportunities. You know, people would say, hey, can you come over and help do this? Oh, hey man, we'll pay you, we'll pay you three grand if you'll come over here and do a commercial for our furniture store. I mean, like it was from everything. We'll give you a truck if you'll come by and do this, this and this. And I'm like, oh, my God. You know, like you and I both talked about the humility and can't believe it.

Like when you talk about NAP selling your broadheads, I remember Ron Brothers game call sent me turkey calls. And I'm like, I feel like I should meet chicks. Like, I got free turkey calls, baby. You know what I mean? I'm kind of a big deal. Yeah, it's like I'm Hollywood, baby. It's like, you know, and so anyway, it was odd. And I think that's when it hit me.

And I think that for me, a roller coaster ride changed to where I'm thinking, wow, I've become pretty famous through this show. I didn't seek this, just trying to create something cool for the culture with an opportunity to giving me at Realtree. But I wasn't making any money, and I was gone. I had a failed marriage. I had a young kid. You know, I wouldn't be in the business.

best person I could be probably out on the road because you know anytime a little fame and opportunity comes you get every temptation thrown at you so I'm out there and having fun with my friends and and trying to make make sense of it but then literally man I was making you know 30 40,000 a year which I'm not saying that ain't good money for getting a chance to hunt but I'm looking and man there's a big underarmour poster you know in Las Vegas and I'm proud of it but I quickly started getting kind of sick of it because I had to even go through a policy. If something had my name on it, I still had to go through a corporate policy to figure out if that product could be sent to me through the corporate structure at Realtree. And so if I wanted to go do, say, the Dixie Deer

Classic or the Western Hunting Expo and they wanted to pay me to a seminar, I was only allowed to do three of those a year to get paid. So I was kind of micromanaged. So I realized that it wasn't that the people at real tree were being mean, it was just a corporation. And what they let me do, they had to let the person in a warehouse do, or the secretary. Well, not necessarily. Not necessarily. Yeah, because I remember arguing that actually with Bill and some of the managers.

I'm like, look, man, I know the guy in the warehouse has got a landscaping business. I'm still going to wear a real tree hat. And so Bill was really cool with that. But finally it was Bill said, Michael, you know, you can't go get paid by, Bush and Elle to go doing the Cabela's appearance. Our Cabellas can't pay you to do something. We use you as a tool in this show, and what we're doing is marketing for Realtree.

And so you're an ambassador for Realtree. And so it just become kind of odd and different. And so in reality, that's where Bone Collector came from, is I said, man, I got to kind of go out on my own. RealTree and I had some really deep talks. Never, never really ever separated because I was very loyal. And I think, too, not. to keep comparing our personalities because we obviously have our different lanes.

But I saw that too. I mean, you worked at the water company for how long? You look around in the same companies that when I met you, you're still working with them. I am too. I mean, me and you've been with Hoyt, how many years? Good people. They've been good to us, but, you know, we're loyal. And if you look, a lot of people think, oh, they don't do nothing unless it's just about big dollars.

It's not true. Relationships mean a lot. We do have to make a living. But in this case, I realize I had a lot. lot of opportunity going away and how much do you get a chance to be in the sun. So I was trying to keep my humility and be humble and not think I was something big, but I also knew that I couldn't be away from my family and see my personal life just completely spiral out of control because in reality, you can't compare a hunting industry to say mainstream, but I was doing as much as I could.

You know, if you're there for two hours and you're signing autographs and you had a booth, you only can get so many people. And so in my mind, I'm thinking, man, I'm overwhelmed and broke. And so bone collector was something. I was like, man. I'm hustling. I'm hustling, man. I'm everywhere across the country. If you're hustling, you should be rewarded for that work. It's work. I was. It seems like it's not in a ditch digging, but it's work. It was work. I mean, you're sacrificing, you said you sacrificed a marriage. You had, you, you know, didn't have, you weren't being rewarded with money. So it's like, not. It's exactly right. And I was, I was, I was, I was, being rewarded with my work and having the comments and the people shaking my hands like,

thank you. Yeah. You know, watching your shows like being in our hunting camp, but we do this up in PA or we do this down in Southern Alabama. You know, I'd go out west and, man, even the West and hunters like, dude, you guys are funny, man. We'd love out here chasing mule deer with us. And it was so cool.

But, and again, I can't, you know, completely bring my career on a lot of my failures. But when you're in the mix and you're focused, and I've always said, you know, you can't focus primarily to make something great and focus on this, there's something that's going to start failing or falling behind. So something that's an asset to you, you'll become a liability to something else that needs your responsibility. You can't be great at everything. No, you can.

So if you're the leader of the industry, you're changing industry, you're great at that. You can't be great at, I mean, you know, you see the great athletes out there, the Jordan and the Brady. And it's like they were great at what they did. Probably, George's probably not getting dad of the year, husband of the year. Probably not.

You know, because, best friend of the year. Yeah. It's just like you're focused on your goal. And for some people, they might think, oh,

well, that's, you know, why would you be so tunnel vision? It's just like, because that's how the brain works when you're driven for something like this. You're right. And yeah,

so I totally understand what you're saying. And I struggle with all that. the emotional part of it. Like I said, that part of it was tough for me. And so, you know, for a bone collector, I was like, man, I got to do something. And actually, the first company I really talked to, I had a chance to work with a company, Gander Mountain had the stores. They wanted to do some stuff, and they were trying to get more people in their stores.

So I had a chance to do a deal with them that was financially lucrative. And then I sat down with the people at Thompson Center and where Bone Collector was really born. they wanted to do a Michael Waddell Edition muzzleloader. And ironically enough, I didn't really do a lot of musloader hunting because, you know, I loved a bow hunt. I love bow hunt. But at the same time, I'm like, man, I'm trying to make me some cheddar. I'm trying to make some shatter.

And I remember we was shooting this gun on the range and we'd spent two days up in their factories and looking and they would show me all these new frames of guns. And we went out there and shot these guns. And I said, man, I just don't want to, I don't know that I want to call it to Michael Waddell edition. I said, you know, maybe that would be a little shallow. Maybe I, in my mind, I don't know why it comes to my mind,

I'm thinking, Jim Shockey would never shoot a Michael Waddell Muzzloter. You know, in my mind, I kept thinking, I don't know why I thought of Jim, because, you know, he's a personality. He's kind of alpha dude. He was with Thompson Center, too, right? He was with Thompson Center. And at the same time, you know, they had the encore and all these guns. And so I remember I told Greg Ritz at the time who was working,

or I think he might have owned the company. I said, man, I don't want to call this gun to Michael Waddell edition. And they said, man, it's the easiest deal of the sale. And so I'm shooting this gun. I said, but this is the gun. This thing is so freaking accurate. I said, I don't know what we call it, but it's a damn show going to be a bone collector. And then it hit me.

I was like, oh, my God, why don't we call it the bone collector? And that ain't necessarily Michael Wadale, but bone collector is a cool name of a gun that may be my friend's in the industry because another thing, psychology, I realized. And I saw this with you and your success. A lot of friends that you have that are real close with you. All of a sudden when your opportunity comes and maybe you break through and you're starting to get public attention, corporations attention to where they are wanting to pay you to come do this, to do that. I notice in the industry some of my better friends started not invite, didn't want me around.

And I'm like, what did I do? I didn't do nothing. Yeah. And it hit me. You won. Yes, it hit me harder. I literally would be somewhere. And I'd have a huge public kind of fan base of people I could hang with and party with, but I couldn't go.

Like, man, why didn't they call me? They all went to dinner. And it's almost like they almost told me. I never told them that they were frustrated with maybe my success. I don't know if it was envy or jealousy. And it took a toll on me psychology because I didn't understand it. And I think I could set back, you know, from a high perspective and see that in your case sometimes. It's like, you know, you was over here editing and doing this.

They're like, how is, oh, Cameron's going to run a little bit. Now he's working out. So I remember Cameron when he was this. I remember I had a lot of that. I remember what else when he couldn't afford this or that. And so I know I'm rambling going a bunch of different directions, but bone collector to me was trying to figure out how to harness opportunity. I was learning business and trying to figure out.

I understood the licensing business from Realtry. And so that's what it was, but I realized that I couldn't do it by myself. And so that's where the Nick Munt and the T-Bone Turner came. And then also where I was also looking for somebody I thought that had one fun, crazy, would love them in camp personality, but also legitimacy in their field. Obviously, T-Bone has never scaled.

to mountain. I mean, from when he was a kid to now. But man, he reminded me a lot of being at the bow rack. I mean, he could set that. They'd still be over there. Him and Wayne still be talking. Like, we would not have got T-Bone and them separated from the bow rack last night. Oh, it's an art working on those bows. And those guys are so good. They're like, you know, Picasso's, you know, when it comes to that. And Nick was a, he was a guide out west. He's from the West and just funny, almost a Jim Carrey type of personality. And so I thought, man, these guys will be perfect to be able to help me with this. And I could figure out a way to help them financially and help them also secure some

endorsements and to work and to go help some other companies that I knew that they was needing these things. And so that's really where Bone Collector came from. And I quickly, after thinking that we should call that Muzzloader Bone Collector, I remember calling the guys at Thompson Center, like, look, guys, I still want to call it Bone Collector. But I think there might be something bigger. I'd like to maybe do a TV show. And so I went and literally got it trademarked.

thought that that could be our show. And I also was so hard wanting to create something bigger than just, you know, Michael Wadale. I wanted it to be, you know, kind of like Bill had Realtree or, you know, Phil, he's got Nike. Yeah, Phil Knight. I was trying to, you know, Kip and those guys had Under Armour. So in my mind, seeing all this, I was, that was my attempt to think I was a businessman. But it was fun.

It also got out of hand too because anytime you get something, you know, it's easy for it to get prostituted out a little bit. It got a little off the track because people were, had a lot of people coming in and had some bad situations, bad business. And so now I'm finally kind of getting back to really understand it all and have no regrets. But it's definitely been a ride. It's been a cool ride. Your story that reminded me of when you talk about your friends or the people close to you,

I remember it was Thanksgiving Day. And I saw this article. I still love magazines article. But from one of my friends had one of my spot hog sites and, you know, seven deadly pins and I had my name on the side of it. And they had blacked out my name. Are you serious? This is my buddy from, you know, that we hunted together. And I was just, I called him.

And I'm like, what's this about? And it was just like, I still remember that. I know that side. I shot. I shot that. I was telling you, I shot that site, had seven pins that kind of bit inward. Yeah, yeah. And so that wasn't this house. It wasn't the house I lived up before. This was years ago. And I still remember how that felt. And I'm like, I thought, I thought we wanted each other to win. Correct. And I'm like, it was weird. But that's where the competition comes in. And in hunting and just men in general are competitive with each other. So there's going to be that. I understand. I get that. That's fine. That's cool. That's actually fun. I've been competing my whole life. So I'm good with that. But I thought we wanted each other to win. I mean, you can still compete and still everybody win. So that was weird for me. And then I think part of like a lot of, and I can't speak for you, maybe you can't address this. But a lot of like after that or there's a period in there where I wanted to win just to prove people wrong. It's like, oh, you fucking doubted me. Okay, amen. Let's see what you think of this.

I love it. And then, you know, once we get older, then it's just like, okay, now I want, then I wanted everybody to win. Rogan kind of taught me this. There's enough cake for everyone. But there was a period there where I was like against everyone. I don't disagree with it. It's so strange.

I don't even think I realize this. And obviously we are talking about it, but, you know, prior to us having this official time to be on the collective together. We talked a little bit about that, just catching up because, man, I hadn't had a chance to really see you in a while. You know, we'd run in each other. I'd always, every time I'd see Cameron,

I remember my thing was, because you was doing, I'd always jump down to do a couple push-ups. And people would laugh, and we'd hug, and, you know, you'd have a line of people. And I'm just kind of sticking with my personality and our relationship. And so inevitably,

I did learn the same way, Cameron, on competition. And I'm still competitive. Man, so highly competitive. But I'm also, now I definitely have a lot of, the word ain't empathy, but I want everybody to win. I mean, I do believe in the tide raises all ships. And so now when I see something, I like it. It's somebody young on YouTube. And I've kind of always had that, but there was always a really competitive side.

I see them coming on. Yeah, what are they going to take from me? I might to shoot a little longer shot. Yeah, exactly. I might go back and win another championship in Turkey calling or maybe for you is like, I'm going to go show him I'll win another marathon or strong man, whatever it is. And so, yeah, me and you share that same spirit there. But I tell you, I will say in N, the biggest thing I did learn through the success is I think you meet every,

I'd always kind of thought you met your friends at the bottom, like in the toughest times, which I think there is some truth to that. But I kind of learned you meet some of your better friends kind of at the top. the ones that have the security to celebrate you, the ones when you can call and say, you're not going to believe this deal and contract. I got kind of like an NFL player who maybe just signed with the Patriots.

Yeah. There's only a handful of friends. You can say, you're not going to believe this. They're going to pay me this for this amount of years, and they're going to allow me to do this, this, this and this. For somebody, you know, outside of your family that you can call and they literally are so emotionally excited for you that they're like, get your butt over here,

We're about to eat a ribby steak and drink a cold beer. Congratulations. I learned that those were people who really loved you. And really were very excited, not because of maybe the money, because they know you enough to know that this was something that you either didn't see coming or a goal that you always had, whether it's killing a big elk. But you see the shade. You know, you can go kill a giant elk.

What's the first people say, must be easy on a farm ranch. You know, must be easy with a new. new bow. Must be easy. Must be nice. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Must be nice. Exactly. Must be nice. And I'm thinking, where have we got to where it's just so incredibly hard to say congratulations. Yeah. Good job. Good job, buddy. You accomplished a goal. And so anyway, no, I agree with you 100%. And it's an odd journey. I think for me it was very awkward. I was blindsided by knowing that that part of it would come. I did not know. I did not know. that. I thought friends, you know, I thought I could come to a friend and say, you ain't

going to believe it, dude. Man, I just killed a 180 and man, I got $10,000 last week. Yeah. They paid me $15,000 for the Dixie Deer Classic and me come hang out and do a seminar and talk about turkeys. Yeah. And I thought people's like, you kidding me, dude. I really thought that's what it's going to be like, like an eighth grader talking about, you know, sellout. Sarah, check, yes. You're a sellout. Yeah. And now all of a sudden like, well, you know, yeah. Won't y'all go on over there. We're. We're a sell out. We're a sellout. Yeah. We're we're going over here and eat the pizza, that's all we can afford. I'm like, bro, I didn't mean it.

It's weird. You know, when I think about the people who've always had my back, not always, but Roy definitely got me started bow hunting, always believed in me. And then Joe, like if I say, you know, he wrote the full word to my book, which changed the trajectory of the success of that book. Because my advance was going to be here.

And I said, oh, by the way, Joe Rogan said he'd do the forward. It's here. Right. Yeah, like $200,000 because just because he said that. And he, so he says that. He's just as happy as I am. I know that for a fact.

He might even be happier. And so, and I feel like I've had that, like, when I see somebody succeed now, I'm like, I'm just as happy as them. Yes. Or you take somebody hunting and they succeed and you're, you know, you want it as, as bad or more than they want it. And so. But I've, you know, I've been the guy who was jealous of others.

And it's just, far not to be. I think this arc that we're on, it's been, you started in one place. Nobody believes in you. You can't, you know, you can't believe you got this opportunity. Then you deal with the hate. And then you're like, man, this is, how blessed are we? But that comes with maturity. No doubt.

And you don't lose that competitive spirit. And like you say, I've always thought there's a fine. line between, say, confidence and maybe arrogance or cockiness and humility. But at the end of the day, it's almost like a very confident humility. You know, I thank you and I both have possessed that. It's like, you know, we're like very thankful and blessed, but like, oh, where's the finish line? Yeah. Who do I got to beat? Right. And yet, you know, you kind of understand what you are good at and what you're not, and you understand your lanes. And I think that's just it.

You know, and for me, I've learned how to really celebrate the people that go in these lanes. But it's very similar. Just like you was talking about road trips, you're right. I remember looking back, and I'd be sitting there watching outdoor programming and somebody like, man, this is a freak nasty, or I hammered him. And one is it made me feel stupider that I said that, but I even felt more goofy for the guy who said it, who kind of ripped it. And now, I mean, I saw, yeah.

You were natural. They were trying. You know, you can tell when somebody's trying too hard. That's what I kept seeing. Yeah. It's like people wanted to be like you. And it's just like you're not like Waddell. And that was odd for me.

But then likewise, I've seen it where, you know, what you do in the fitness and health, which it should be, you know, what you do is inspirational. And people should want to get out and take care of themselves and run and be in shape. But then you'll see the same type of vibe to where, wait a minute, this guy ain't sincere about this. This ain't Cameron. This guy is trying to be that, but it would be similar to me to saying, wait a minute, I've always said goofy stuff and had fun in hunting camp and been laughing and cutting up, me and camera friends, but

I think I need to, I'm going to start taking a rock up a mountain like Cameron, you know, where if you look at our relationship, I love it like I'll read and if it ever comes up, you and I, there was one guy, it was on a radio show or podcast, something, somebody said, Dude, I've heard comments that, man, Cameron Haynes could, he would eat your lunch, elk cutting. I said, absolutely not. I said, if you looked at my waistline, I'm the guy that eats Cameron's lunch. As a matter of fact, I said, I probably, I said, me and the camera don't elk cunt as much together

because he don't pack what I like to pack in a lunch. And they just got to laugh because they got the joke. And I said, no, I said, dude, that ain't, that ain't Cameron and I's relationship. I said, you know, Cameron and I would have probably some of the funnest time elk cutting. And I said, because you would combine the two skill sets, and my God, nothing would be safe. Right. Camera could run around to the backside of the mountain, go up and top and look. And, you know, I'm a caller by nature and kind of philosophical.

I said, you combine the two of us, man, it might be illegal to hunt those elk. Yeah, seriously, I said, but it would just be a lot of fun. And I said, in reality, I said, but that's, no, we understand lanes. We understand what we're good at. And that's what a lot of people, I think, is insecure. they don't understand that their biggest blessing is who they are. Right. And they can't be secure with that.

They feel like it's got to be something more. If I can be like this person, be like that. And there's nothing better to be inspired. Because, I mean, I have a lot of people that inspired me. You know, we was mentioning Chuck Adams and some of these people that, when we were kids, watching these outdoor shows. And we was talking about even the USC, the hoist, Gracie. I know.

It's like, they all inspired us all, but we still us. You know, and thinking of that, too, I was just going to say that, you know, I've read captions or read things and I'm like, man, did I write this? Is this? No, it's this guy. But these are all the things I've said. Yeah.

It's like I thought I wrote it, right? And then I was thinking like I was going to throw shade on that, you know, for, you know, trying to mimic what I do or whatever. But then I think back, because you just mentioned it on Chuck Adams, Miles Keller. Yeah. Jim Shockie, even. I would do what they. They did. I wanted to be like them. I mean, Miles Keller would never smile. He had an X-I

legend bow. I got an X-I. I think Mark Garcia was at X-I at this time and I was like trying to get a bow. Jim Shockey had the bandana. Yeah. I got kills pictures up, old pictures of here with a bandana because I don't, Jim Shockey was the man. So I mean, I have emulated a lot of people too. And then to your point, you kind of find your lane and then you're not trying to be like other people. If you want success, you're like the best version of yourself. Yes. And nobody can mimic that. And that's where you have success. But I think when you're young, you're trying to figure out where to go. You are trying to figure out. It's funny. I saw a picture of me. I was this chubby little redneck kid. And I had a, had a deer. And I had a green toboggan on or, you know, hat like Chuck

Adams. Yeah. Absolutely. He was my hero. I had them double X78s. And I read every article. That was the super slams, right? The super slams. That's right. And you could get those Eastons in Autumn Orange and, oh, man, and you could get those, I think it was, was it American, what was American, the cheaper was you can buy them in onesies, like Marl Burroughs. Oh, the arrows? Yeah, it's like an American Eagle, I think it was. I would get the Game Gitter 2s or something, just a cheap one, they were cheaper. Wasn't it like 2117s? Yeah.

I remember getting those 2413s and just, again, just feel like I need to put it in my window, my truck and show people that old Martin Pro Eliminator I had back there. Like, girl, I'm rich, you know. God, it's amazing, man. I love it, though. Fun stuff to talk about. What picture of Chuck, if you think of Chuck Adams, what picture comes to mind of his? Mine is that big brown bear.

Me too. Is it really? Yeah, the one on Kodiak. And I remember reading it, he said it might have been 1,400 pounds or something like that. And he's got his bow sitting there, and he has, you know, the big, I don't know what arrow, 2314s maybe. Yeah.

But that picture, I was just like, what kind of animal is this? It's just like the prehistoric it looked like. Yeah. And that's the picture of Chuck. And calls, you can see those. Yeah, and the claws. Yes.

The claws coming out. And it's like that, if I think of Chuck Adams, I think of that. And I also remember reading articles about him. I've talked about this too. It's like one thing that I'm very passionate about is celebrating the history of archery and bow hunting. Because it kind of pains my heart and it's probably all old fuck say shit like this. but that people, younger guys right now, might not even know Fred Bear, Chuck Adams,

some of these legends in our sport. Like, you know, if you say Chuck Adams, I'd be like, who? Well, you mean, I know Chris B. You know. That's right. Yeah. Or like you mentioned Miles Keller.

I mean, you're talking about OG, man, Miles. I know. Had that blonde hair and just never smiled. Look like he just got out of prison. Stud. It wouldn't kill giant white tail. He had that look. He did.

Yeah. And so it kind of, it hurts a little bit that the history isn't celebrated as much. So I've tried to do that here. Sometimes I just read articles or old books like Head, Life at Full Draw that I talked about here, Chuck's book that I absolutely love to think Greg. Gus Schell wrote that one. But yeah, the history of it.

So, and you mentioned this earlier, you keep track of like the younger guys coming up. Who catches your attention? There's actually a lot. there's a lot that even I don't even watch a lot but I like what they're doing because they're creating a lane like the hunting public guys I've seen they've had a lot of success they seem to be celebrating that I don't know not necessarily the biggest animal but just what I think is really relevant

and is that brotherhood of fun and just you know let's go hunt some public ground get some vienna sausage and you know some whatever what you can find at a little local convenience store and go can and go chase some stuff. The Sikh one guy seemed to be doing a really good job of understanding how to bring some entertainment, yet still shoot some trophies. There's some new stuff. I like Cody Robbins.

He's doing some cool stuff up in Canada. There's quite a few, but I would say now, you know, if you look at some of these, you know, I guess if you want to call it influencer, social media, YouTube, you know, you look at what outdoor channel is that dynamic has changed there is a my outdoor tv app which you can download which is unbelievable you can go watch anything you want to anytime and there's all kind of cool archives of hunt but you know there's a lot of the newer generation producing stuff on youtube so anyway i think there's a lot out there but with that said i am a little concerned as you are and i've often thought maybe i'm just an old codger and i'm you know i'm getting to be that granddaddy you know older uncle

just like, got to say something negative. Yeah, and I'm trying to keep that positive energy and vibe going, but then I'm like, I don't, and maybe this is the fact that, you know, at heart you're a writer. At heart, I got my first outdoor entertainment through reading articles. And so I don't know if something sinks in when you read something to where you become a bitter student of it. Now everything's moving so fast that I think sometimes we've got so much that it's too much.

And there's a saying, you know, less is more. I think in our time there was a little less but equaled more passion and more of a student of the game. And I do look at our generation. We were students. You know, I know Miles Keller. I know back and forth. It broke my heart when Noel Feather was killing those deer in a fence, you know, and a pen. And he was my hero, but I can name so many names.

I mean, Bob Fokrod, Roger Raglan, who I still adore, man. Just, again, personality, funniest crap and good. But inevitably, I don't know if I necessarily. see as exactly the way we went about it to where to me when I look back in Turkey calling and I think of Dick Kirby or the Paul Buckskees or I think about what Toxy Hayes accomplished in camouflage and Bill Jordan and camouflage I have so much respect and I hope that we don't lose that history of respect. It's not like me or you or anybody that might be in this that needs a certain respect or just, but I think to be deep,

rooted in something, you've got to know a little bit of history and be a student of it. There's no way you can ever play the game of basketball and not understand that was a Michael Jordan or Dr. J. or Dominic Wilkins. How do you play hockey and not know a Wayne Gretzky or think about NASCAR and lose the legendary status of a Del Earnhardt and, you know, Bobby Labani, whoever it might be. And so I feel like a little bit of that loss they don't know. And I think people should study it. They should read the memoirs of Fred Bear.

They should go read Life at Full Draw by Chuck Adams. You know, they should go read, you know, your book, you know, the first, you know, when you was talking about backwood, you know, back country, hunting, they should read that book. You know, I did a book, it was in 2006 or seven, you know, life lessons from Booker Bottom. It would tell you a lot about our road and what it was then where it is now. But where they're at now is going to be different 20 years from now.

Yeah, yeah. 20 years from now. I was going to say, I was going to mention, how do you see today we can reach everybody? Social media is available to everybody. Hunters have, for many years, we preach to the choir. If you're in outdoor life, if you're in Peterson's bow hunting, if you're in Bowhunter magazine, you're talking to bow hunters.

You're writing for bow hunters. If you're on outdoor channel, that's for hunters. Correct. You know, no anti-hunters watching an outdoor channel. How do you see it now where is it an opportunity for us to share what we love in our lifestyle or is it going to be the death of hunting? Because we can't figure out how to share it to where people who don't understand it aren't appalled and want to do all they can to end murdering animals.

How do you see that sweet spot of growing what we love, sharing what we love, or ruining what we love? Yeah, I think it could go either way. And I think it has gone both ways, to be honest. I think it gets back to what we were talking about, some of the envy and jealousy and the frustration, whether they see somebody else have a success. I'm still that way a little bit.

You know, I'm a big elk hunter. Like this year was a first year in 22 years that I did not kill an elk with my bow. And I mean, I stayed after them the whole month of September. I just couldn't catch a break. I mean, I was like, I went to Oregon out by, oh, heck, it was that Starkey unit. Awesome.

Elk hunting. It's good. Not giant bulls, but a lot of them. And I went to, I went out to Utah and just had a tremendous amount of fun, but could not just, just, I had a couple shots at 80 and looking back,

I should have shot. But it was one of those things. Like, I don't, I don't mind shooting there, but it's like, this bull's bugling. He's coming a little closer than he's gone. But in Evilly, you know,

what am I doing? You know, I'm sitting there when I'm on the mountain, looking at Mr. Graham, seeing somebody kill a, thick, and I'm like, you know, and so I'm wanting it's like, where was this? Must be nice. Yeah. I wanted to put your, you know, there must be nice on there.

But inevitably, I think we somehow got to unify a little bit, and I think what we got to do, too, is understand that what we love and our passion and our lanes, whether it's, you know, like me, I love turkey hunting. I told you, I got where I love, listen to the podcast you did with Newcomb about squirrel hunting. and he was talking about bear hunting and stuff like that. That was interesting because I got where I love squirrel dogs, love trapping. And so I love archery. But I also am not the guy that's going to sit there and say, well, you're a sissy if you ever pick up a gun or you're this or that.

It's almost like I would rather lead people to what I love through the love and desire of it. I think that can be said in fitness. It can be sad with that in anything. You know, it's like if somebody sees you having people, positive energy. And if it is, you know, taking that rock up the mountain, sooner or later, somebody's going to say, man, there's some sincerity in that. That gives him a certain vibe and meaning. Hunting does that. Working out can do that. You know, your love of Christ can do that. There's so many things. Your family. And I think sometimes the hunting industry cannot get

out of the way of their own self, this industry, because we're all trying to battle each other. or jump on a certain bandwagon and in reality how it wins is if we all just attack it this way if inevitably if I'm looking at this as a football team I was like, wait a minute Cameron Haynes, we can get Cameron

okay, we got that covered Waddell's up for draft okay we got the cliches and the goofball sayings after he shoots something he can definitely cut a few jokes in camp and then hey man we hear that Blake Shelton signed up he's working in hunting industry well, if you can't have phone, Blake Shelton, you're probably, you know, not breathe in air.

And then you start looking at that way. Look at where we're reaching and they unify that. And so a lot of times people, in my mind, in the hunting industry, we're trying to force feed or change legislative laws to say, well, you can't do this or you can't do that. And I don't think that's the wrong approach. I think we can win if we do a good job promoting what we love. And whoever does the best job of it is going to take that. element, whether it's archery, whether it's fitness, whether it's a campfire and a good old

cigar and a little glass of bourbon drinking an old fashion and telling stories about the family and weather, it can go so many of directions. And what you'll find is there's no area that's wrong. Right. And I think that's where the industry goes wrong. They will see a certain vibe. And then they all try to jump on that vibe. Let's just all live, we can live together. That's what I get excited about is to know, you know, when I'm over. and my son was in college and they're kids that are over there hunting and they're asking me about the hunting public guys and you. Well, it'd be easy to say, well, them got, man, I can out hunt them boys.

You know, shoot, well, if I want to run up the hill, I could. No, but I'm like, I know those guys, man, they're good. You're looking into some good people right there, you know, and it makes me happy to say that because I know they're laying, they got to be doing something good in their lane. Yeah. So I don't know. you're right, but it can definitely go for or it can go against us. And I think I really feel like it's about 50-50 out there. I don't know, maybe that's the cynicism in me, the old man again,

but I feel like overall, when I get on it and really dig deep. I'll get excited in some cases, and then I'll get really kind of like, why? What? Why did they do this? Right. You know, and I've even looked back in some of my post like, man, I shouldn't have done that. That was immature, Well, and I think some people are going to listen to this and say, oh, well, these guys have the success, so it's easy to say celebrate others, right? I mean, people will discount whatever we say. But the way I see it is it reminds me of this, you know, Cam Newton the other day was talking about the 49ers, and he's taking a shot at Brock Purdy and saying he's like the 10th best player on that team. And he might be, I don't know what are you talking about. He's the best quarterback on that team.

So he's not trying to be the best linebacker. No, he's not. So yeah, there might be a, in the linemen, aren't trying to be the best quarterback. So it's like everybody's got their role, be your best, right? Right. So when you talked about that's how hunting can grow as you spread out, I look at it like a team.

It's like, okay, if this guy's the best at this, he's going to go further. And together, they'll all go further because they're accepting their role and they want to be the best at it. So don't try to be the next Michael Waddell. Correct. Try to be the best, whatever you. do and just own that lane and then that's how we elevate each other.

That's correct. Everybody's just like, and I think what happens is sometimes people, they don't know what their strengths are. They don't know what they offer. So because they're not sure of it, they want to bring other people down to make that gap closer, right? Instead of trying to elevate themselves, they'll, they'll like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do, but this guy's having success.

I don't like it. It doesn't make me feel good. I want to, I want to tear them down. But it just reminded me of the Cam Newton thing and taking a shot at Purdy because it's it's like, yeah, let's just be the best of whatever we do. That's correct. And I think that sums it up. I think that is the definition of jealousy or envy,

which are kind of somewhat two different things. And Cam Newton didn't realize it, but he basically is pretty envious of where right perty is because I think that, I think by, I don't know, this is where we need Joe Rogan. He could correct me. Hopefully he hears this and he can correct me on this. But I think, you know, from what I understand,

envy is where, you know, you don't like. that person in that position. It bothers you that they're in that position. So I say something kind of envious to take them down. In reality, you know, here Brock Bertie is playing in the biggest game in football. And they got a real good chance of winning. Good team. Good, amazing team. And so inevitably, that's a pretty immature, envious statement, even if it is true. And so that happens a lot more in the hunting industry. And I think you're right, too. I think people just don't understand their own self-worth. And once they realize that, and they can focus on that positivity of that versus feeling good about taking down somebody they're envious of or jealous of, I mean,

here's a reason. I remember, you know, you look through the Bible in them 10 commandments, and one of them is thou shalt not covet. And if you think about it, you know, there ain't no person on earth. You know, I've come from a Southern Baptist background, and everybody knows that, you know, thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not commit a daughter. adultery, and as far as it goes, you know, like, but they don't ever think about thou shall not have another false God before me, or thou shalt not covet thy neighbors. It's impossible not to. Yeah.

How do you not, you know, get in a cool, you know, old chavell, you know, with old 454 in and it crank it up. Like, man, I saw a darn old General Lee Duke's of Hazard, 69 Charger. Yeah. And I caught myself like, holy cow, I'm breaking the Ten Commandment. I wolf this car, had the old Dixie Horn. Do do do do do do do do. I was like, man, I want this car so bad.

I'm so mad at this guy, he got it, and I don't. And so inevitably, yeah, you just have to learn. I think if you are going to be proud of something, you've got to find some self-worth and be proud of yourself and what you can do. And it might not be anything that's worthy of crazy followers, but to somebody it means a lot, you know. And I'm reminded.

You know, one thing that touched me last night, and I don't think it's talked enough about, but man, meeting your. family all morning. I was, I called my wife, I called T-Bone. I said, man, I'm going to tell you something, man. I met, you know, Cameron's wife and hanging with his kid and Tanner and just chilling. I said, dude, I felt like I was home in the South getting ready to eat a bowl of cheese grits and, you know, eat some cornbread. I said, man, we sat around and with the family and just chatted and talked about the weather to politics to the state of the union. And,

and for me, it hit me because I was thankful. I was thankful. about back home, I got that seven-year-old boy, man, if I don't ever do nothing more, man, I'm a kid's hero. And we always, we got more people, have people look up to them and they don't even realize it, you know. And so that's why, you know, for me, when I get a chance to even meet somebody or shake their hand, you know, especially we both are blessed to go to some cool sports shows and shake hands of people and meet hunters and look at trail can pictures and, you know, probably in your case,

looking at some achievement they made in an marathon or working out or maybe in the elk they shot. And I always think to myself, man, when you meet a grown man, Calistan man, just a hug. And man, I call it a little bromance hug. And like, man, what's up, buddy? Yeah. And then you get to talking and all of a sudden they got their daughter there and you hug the daughter. And you don't realize the load that's on people. Yeah.

And it's so cool to just realize that, man, I just want to tell everybody, everybody's got so much incredible self-worth. that some of these people that I get mad at that personally sometimes I'm walking around ATA like I'm going to find this dude there's been a few times like I'm going to go find this dude is talking crap not just about me but the whole everybody that's successful there might be a couple guys that's wanting to and uh and then all of a sudden I was like man I kind of feel sorry for him they probably need a hug more than they need to ask what but definitely I kind of want to whoop the ass first and then or at least attempt I think we need to treat it out let me be the shit talker yeah and you come in with your crew because y'all y'all can last longer i gotta get a sucker punch in i don't know if i can go the long haul but uh but in reality i think they need a hug yeah and somehow they need to know like bro you ain't got to be hating on me yeah you ain't got to be hating on cameron you ain't got to be hating public or something that you saw an outdoor channel or the beaumars or whoever you probably just need

a hug and let me tell you your self-worth you're incredible but this that you're exuding does suck Yeah, it reminds me, I was, we were in Vegas one time, Rogan was there. And so anytime he's around, there's a crowd, right? I can't remember what we were drinking. This was years ago. It was, you know, stupid. But anyway, there was tempers were flaring. Right.

I don't know why. Circle bar. I don't know what it was. But everybody swole up. Everybody. And somebody was acting tough around Joe. Yeah. And Joe was just like, he's like, come here, give me a hug.

He gave the guy a hug. Are you serious? He recognized it. Gave him a hug. Oh my God. That was it. Dude, I've never met Joe. I want to so bad.

I'm such a fan. And here's stories like that. I've heard stuff like that. That's a hell of a take for him to notice that. Yeah. Which Joe is a badass. I mean, he knows jujitsu. He could have choked a guy on 2.7 seconds.

Yeah, definitely. But he knows to your point what men actually want or what they need, not know what they want, what they need. they need to be, hey, we're okay. Don't worry about it. And I'll never forget that. That's big. Yeah.

I mean, it's tough because what we do means so much to us. So sometimes it's hard to separate that emotion. Like when you talk about the shows and this guy. And how it works is you never want to take for granted the positive, but you never forget the negative. You know what I mean? No, you don't. No matter how much you try, like, okay, I got all this positive, but this one guy says this one, it's like, I'll never forget that guy.

I know it. And I don't know why that is. Do you ever feel bad, like scrolling through maybe your comments? Because I do. I look at comments, you know, whether I'm looking at anybody's post. I'll go to comments and check on it, you know. And I'll be reading and you see and all that, and you're like, oh, man, that's cool. Oh, man, that's nice.

And you're reading. And then all of a sudden, like, what a douche. And you're like, wait a minute. Who is user 1,35? you know, freaking strong-faced American flag. Who is this guy? You know, and it's like, how did I just scroll through 30 really good comments?

Yeah. To land on this. It is amazing, really how that works. And there's a difference in true vile negativity than sarcasm. Like, you know, my people that I respect the most, they'll think, you know, if they were to be on our text, you know, change sometimes. I mean, it's a name called in.

And it's always, you know, every time, like Jim Shocky, for instance, people, like, was at the shot show. And I had people at Outdoor Channel Booth getting worried about he and I. Like, man, I'm sorry. I said, no, no, no, dude. He's giving you a bad time. Yeah, yeah, but it's kind of our relationship. Okay.

It's kind of like, you know, three or four times if I saw you, you had a line and I'd do a push-up. Like, you know, it's not a slight. Right. What's up, what else? And, hey, man. You know, and sometimes. Sometimes a fan looking at like, who's this asshole? Right.

You know, what's he doing? You know, but it's, well, Jim's that way with me. He's like, booger, holler, have you learned a king's, queen's English yet, you know, and I'm, and we're just, and then, and then it's just 10 minutes of that. And then it's like, hey, man, love you, buddy. I'll see, hey, man, good luck. Hey, I saw Bramlin. You know what I mean?

It's like, hey, sorry, everything you're going through. But it's real. You know, if he sees something in my life that he thinks I'm being stupid about, he'll tell me. And kind of vice versa. I can tell Jim, Jim, that too. And so, but on the surface, it's not negative. It's a sarcasm. It is those jabs.

I mean, you know, fun. What would, so what would people, like if you got mad at somebody's show, what were people upset it with you about your success or what would they say? What was hate you would get? You know, there's a story I'll tell. And I've told this a couple times. I never forget the first year real tree road trips. This is kind of what I get a lot of.

Well, one is, you know, everybody say, well, it must be nice, kill them in a high fence. For the record, we've never, you know, shot an animal on our show on a high fence. We've never videoed in it. I haven't either. Nor has Cameron Haynes going on. Matter of fact, I don't have any of my close friends that I know that do video or put their content out in a high fence. I mean, I know some that do. I know people that do, but we don't.

Or must be nice. It's a farm deer. Well, if I had a chance to hunt that, so yeah, that's the best quote ever. Rogan Haynes, you know, must be nice to her. But I had, I never forget this, and it goes right in line what we're saying. The first year Real Tree Road trips, first of all, I am so incredibly awkwardly insecure about having a line of grown man that would like for me to sign a hat. Everybody thinks that that's what they want. And I think there are certain people that probably would truly desire that, seek it out, and be comfortable,

maybe in that moment. I wasn't because I couldn't understand it. I learned real quick, you know, it's hard for a man to come up and ask for an autograph because I've been on the other side of it to wear, be hanging out for five days, taking Dale Earnhardt, turkey hunting. We're laughing, cutting up. And then I'm really the whole time wanting to sign my camo hat. And it's awkwardly, like I feel like it's going to make me look goofy or whatever. So anyway, I learn right quick. It's a disrespect if you're like, oh, man, you don't want my autograph, you know, you just sign it respectfully and go about your business. Because it was a lot for them to ask for it.

It was a lot to ask for, especially out of us men, especially sharing in the space. I know these, these men are not in line because they think I'm a better hunter. And it's not just you and them. There's a line of, there's people. Like there's people. They're humbling themselves to, because they value you in front of other people. Not like they bumped in and said, oh, I'm a big fan. It's just like they have, there's an audience there.

Exactly. And so, you know, I've seen you handle crowds and you do it well, but it is kind of a humbling, awkward feeling, right? And so it was one of my first shows I went to was in Mississippi 2004. The show had aired in 2003. And we're at this big show at Mississippi Hunting Expo. And there's quite a few people in line and signing hats and stuff. And you could drink beer at the show people walk around. And some guys about my age,

he had two or three girls with them. There was two or three of them. Well, this old redneck come walking by. And who the hell are you? And he's kind of like making a little scene about half titsby. And I'm like, oh, man, you know, I look and kind of laugh at all. Like, oh, man, nobody, you know, nobody. And so all of a sudden he hangs around a little bit where they kind of say,

well, I guess you're some big damn star. And I'm like, God, dang. And I definitely didn't know how to handle it. Right. You know, I was already kind of felt weird. So I was like, man, it was just my incisors kind of not mad. Just like, oh, man, this, this guy really knows I ain't a star. I shouldn't be signing these hats.

He's calling me out. Yeah, he's calling me out. And so finally he kept on to the point where two or three people like, hey, man, shut up, dude, leave Wadale alone. He finally comes back through. Same guy. Mows off against him. Man, who the hell are you? And at the time, I'm thinking, well, maybe he really.

don't and I snap. I mean, I really snap. Like all of a sudden I'm the kid in Manchester High School that, you know, I'm ready to, I'm ready to party and got a mouth off his time to, I wouldn't say go over and fight. So I stopped and I said, I can tell you who the hell I am. I said, I'm a dude. If you'll go find your piece of shit, Bo, I'll walk out in your parking light and show you how to shoot it and whoop your ass in front of your hot little girlfriend right here. And I said, I didn't hurt enough your mouth. I said, I'm the guy. I said, won't you give me the key to your lease and I'll kill your damn turkeys. won't kill mine.

Cameron, swear, and I said it because I was kind of sarcastically mad to doce it. What am? What's up, baby? Hug my neck. We traded phone numbers and kind of hung out. And later that evening, I was by myself,

I went and had a beer with the guys. Really? And it went from, oh, my God, similar to the Rogan hugging the guy. Yeah. He did know who I was, but he had some whatever feelings about.

it, jealousy or envy. But once he realized, he punched my button to basically see if I was like him, which I answered would say, bro, I am like you. I'm just, I can't believe I'm doing this, man. I'm so scared of what I'm doing. But I know I can kill a turkey. I know I can shoot my bow and kill a deer. And, you know, and I got confidence in myself.

And once I showed him that, that I was like him, man, we were like he was a hug. And I said, hey, man, ain't you doing a seminar a minute? I'm like, yeah. All right, we're coming back through. He knew all of it. He knew it all. Again, I'm sitting there rest of the show. I'm like, oh, my God, that was a deep dive in some psychology there.

Yeah. I don't know how to unpack that. That is most of the time. It's almost like maybe that's it. Maybe there's such a, it's hard for me to say because I can't gauge what it is people would even see in me. But maybe it's just that I'm so regular that what makes it special. Right.

It's almost like, well, he ain't better than me. Right. And my answer is like, I'm not even trying to be better than you. Right. You know, I'll tell in the hunting industry, I was like, man, I ain't trying to out hunt nobody, but I'm out fun and trying to out fun everybody because I like to have a good time. Yeah. It's not that I don't take hunting serious. I take it really serious.

And I can look in my trophy room and know that, holy cow, man, I've had some success. But it's back when we started earlier. My relationships that I've made and the things that we can talk about. about these old pictures that we got, you know, you and I when we were, my God, looked like we're 10 years old. I know. I wanted to show this one. So it's like we can get this one on camera.

Macy can make us a real for it. But yeah, this is 2004. And I don't know. I must have printed this out because, again, I was like the biggest fan of you were like, you were like what I wanted to be. That's crazy. That's humbling, man. I didn't even realize that.

I sent this to you and then you sent it, sent it back to Cameron. you're the man. Thanks for your friendship. Michael Waddell, UA photo shoot November 2004. So this is 20 years ago. And yeah, I mean, we're a lot has changed in 20 years. What hasn't changed is how much we love to hunt, how much we love what we do. So when you see, you see people out there and it's hard not to say, are you doing this because you love this or because you want to be, you don't want attention or you want to be a star or you want to be, get a sponsor. or things like this. So it's like all I know is when I look at us, I know our intentions then were pure. We just loved what we did and we couldn't believe how lucky we are. We were in

PA doing a photo shoot for Under Armour. You were probably, you were ahead of me as far as making it a career. You know, I just, I only quit my job like a year ago. So I still never, I had a hard time quitting that job because I thought I wasn't anything special and that was the best job have ever had in my life. Who am I to quit a great job? Right. But I think it's that attitude that has helped us grow in this industry. A hundred percent. As I was telling you, I had a conversation with some old, I call them old codgers, old trappers and hunters. It was asking me about you. And I said, man, you know what's funny is I said, Cam and I are just like and completely different. It's amazing, but that is the same thing.

I remember that particular photo shoot. You're right. I mean, TV, outdoor television was big then, and we had had road trips, had just aired its first year. You were writing and working, obviously at the Water Company. And I remember me and you both was looking at shows like,

what are we here for? Yeah. I'm like, they're going to end us, I bet they're going to let us have these shirts. You know, it's like, I think they're going to give us this whole box of camo. And we were like, I don't know, man, like not at the Rocksbury.

Like, you know, we can't blow. believe that Under Armour, you know, and two, I don't even think people realized, Under Armour not only was getting in the hunting industry, Under Armour was maybe in Dix, sporting goods, you know, a Maryland-based company. Yeah. They weren't anything of what they are now. And that was, I think, the first couple camouflage garments that they ever had. And it was an under, truly was an under wear.

That first layer. First layer. Yeah. So, yeah, that humbleness and that excitement. student of the industry, student of the hunt, I think that was us getting the chance to feel a little bit like, you know, Chuck Adams maybe or that Miles Keller,

even though we was being ourselves. And so, yeah, that pictures like that bring me back. And I don't know, it makes me feel really good. And it makes me feel really good getting back to success to see where you're sitting, the friends you made,

the people you mix in with. And in reality, I think now as, if I were to, somewhat brag on you and I, it's cool because it's, I feel like we've really, truly have become ambassadors. There's a difference. We're not just, you know, little kids running around trying to kill an elk or have fun and meet up at the ATA and get some shrimp cocktail at St. Elmo's. Where now you look at what you're doing and who you've been able to talk to

and see a picture in Las Vegas at the UFC. Because what I see, a lot of people say, you know, get back to the jail saying, why is camera getting to be front? row up there with Rogan and all those guys and Dana. No, here's what I see. I see my buddy who's a bow hunter. And I know what's in your heart and soul. It's bow hunting. I see me.

You know, people see Cameron. I see, we're there. Yeah. We're there. If you see me over there hunting with Theo Vaughn, like, we're taking Theo hunting. No. Because it's the same, man. We're getting a chance to influence our life and our culture of what meant to us or what

we ate elk chili last night with your family. Yeah. Now we, even though it's you, sometimes me. we are getting to sell our culture. And so therefore, there's no jealousy. Sometimes I take that back, sometimes like, God dang, I wish I was there having a cocktail with those guys. And that would be that close to the fight and hang with that.

I bet they're having fun. But I'm seeing a culture represented through you. And I hope people can see that through me. It's not about I'm trying to out hunt, but I am trying to tell people that picture and where that started is still there. But now we're having a chance to bring so many. any people into it. And that's the beauty of what we get to do more than the animals. I think we get to shoot. I think so too. And like to that point when I see you, it's like I still see that that hunting

culture is number one that's represented. That's who you are. You know, and I'm not trying to say I'm like that. But like on my Instagram page, I don't have New York Times bestselling author, which was great. All I have, I don't have any confidence. I have bow hunter. That's right. That's it. I don't, Yeah, I wrote a book and it did good and it's cool that I made the list. I don't care. I'm a bow hunter. That's what I care about. I'll always just be a bow hunter and that's enough.

And so when you say that because of our love for what we do, yes, I mean, I know you've been represented by endeavor. You know, you've had like these huge opportunities, you know, friends with Blake Shelton worked with Hollywood-type connection. people, but it's all just based on Booger Bottom, Georgia, to be honest. And that still hasn't changed, right? Yes. I mean, that's what to me is so beautiful about it, because some people might use these opportunities to get to this place. And then they're like, that was another life when I was a bow hunter.

I'm doing this other stuff now. No, it's the same. Yeah. Matter of fact, it's kind of crazy. That's kind of where the success come from. It's like, what are you? I'm Cameron Haines, a guy that did this for so long that bow hunted, who enjoys fitness and pushing himself past what you think you can still push yourself,

and then chase down an elk from time to time and go hang with friends. Who am I? I'm still the snotty-nosed kid. Now that beard has gotten gray that from Booger Bottom, who likes to call turkeys and have a good time. And so reality, once I feel like that's where, you know, and I think that's the whole thing we're trying to say, if anybody's listening and wondering, when we own that, when we truly own that, but never left it,

that's where our success come from. And I get it all the time, too, Cameron, people's like, sometimes a booger-bottom thing, people get kind of frustrated with it and like, man, man, why ain't got always say you from Booger-Bottom? I'm like, I'm not telling you, Booger-Bottom to remind you where I'm from. I'm reminding myself. I go home a lot and hang on my dad and, you know, where I come from, which I had a great childhood, But Booger Bottom, it was dirt roads when I was a kid. It was, you know, a pop-all lived next door, made moonshine liquor,

and taught me how to garden, literally had a mule, and my dad bought an old dexter tractor, a little diesel. And, man, my papa loved that thing. And he died when I was 12, but I have so many fond memories of having a hog on a raised floor and he'd kill that thing on the first cold day. Man, he'd have fruit loops sometimes, but he had goat milk in a refrigerator, and it just sucked. And so sometimes in my mind, if I'm in Las Vegas or I am somewhere in one of these cool places like you and I both have got a chance to be and we're in a city, I always in the back of my mind I'm thinking of Booker Bottom, not because I think I'm tougher or cooler to have some cliche area I'm from.

It just reminds me that because I celebrated where I'm from and who I really am, it's got me to these opportunities in places just being me. And I think I'm more proud of that than anything because that ain't me. That's culture. You represent something that's bigger than you and you just happen to be part of it. So yeah, that to me is deep and super cool, man, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that can be lost on these people that might have similar or maybe they see what we've done and they're like, I'd like to do something. It's like, never forget where you came from.

And it sounds so easy. It's such a cliche. But it's, it's so powerful. It's very powerful. And that's what happens. That's what detracts people from their journey that where they could have, who knows where they'd be, they get distracted on all those other stuff, you know? Yeah.

And I've been distracted too. Sometimes you mentioned deals that weren't that great for alignment on your brand. That does happen. Yeah, it's going to happen. But for the, for, you know, 30 years, been pretty focused on, hey, this is who we are, this is what we do. Yep. And you can either join.

in or whatever. It's fine. It's not going to change. And yeah, I mean, such good insight there from you. This is kind of a funny story too, but you mentioned that guy who came up who was challenging you and he had his hot girlfriend there.

So where on all the places you, where are the hottest girls at the sports show? Man. Man. Is it the South? Are you partial to the South? I think it's the South and probably Texas, man, like you go down to...

Have you been to Salt Lake? Salt Lake and it produces. Dude, to be honest with you, first of all, my wife has skinned me up for saying this, but I think these little country girls and these ladies that do come out that are sincerely there,

sometimes just with their boyfriends or husbands, but there's some beautiful, you know, women that come through these sports shows. But yeah, it's really all across the country. Yeah, the South is hard to beat. But it's funny, I would say a lot of my Western... I'm not saying, you notice now but no i don't even know i didn't even know a woman even visited the show anymore right so

i'm talking about years ago yeah all my buddies from out west would come and work say the dixie deer classic oh they'll fall in love 17 times but i don't know if it's just the looks or the southern accents right really just get tough combination but uh be golly man i i i this is so cool to talk about all this stuff because it's pretty it's deeper than what people think and i think you know this whole thing is like when you know where you come from people because because you're right We had that in common too. I did carry a chip on my shoulder, I think. You know, I was like, you know, as soon as I felt like if I was talking country

and maybe I didn't understand, I remember being in meetings and people getting to talk about Evita and some high-level margins and percentages, and we can do this one. And I'd be like, you know, I'm over there with my little steeple like trying to be Mr. B. And I'm thinking, I don't know what in the holy hell they're talking about. I never forget one time I was in a meeting and guy was talking. I don't even know what we're talking about. It's kind of smug to me.

I said, do you know what a bull float is? And he said, bull float. Is that something to do with wildlife? And I said, well, you don't know every damn thing either. Concrete. Yeah, concrete. Exactly. And I said, I don't trust me.

I know what a bull float is. I might not know what even is. And these margins you're talking about. Because it used to be a joke in industry. Every deal I had, I wanted 10%. And the reason is because 10% was an easy math, medical equation. You know, and I do talk, it's like, we can't do 10%.

Wadell, we're talking about these things are going to be, you know, $2,000 a piece. And like, yeah, okay, $200. Yeah. And I was like, no, Wadell, this has got to be like 1.7% or, you know, 2.2 as best we can do. And I'm like, that's tough to figure out. I don't know if I can figure that. I ain't hired an account of it yet, you know. So inevitably, I did carry a chip.

And I was, and so I, but you don't leave it. That's why some of these people, if you're from the, you can be from the hood or you can say, man, we didn't have this, have that. use it to your advantage. Why I be a victim of it? Use it to push you forward. And I don't think there's nothing that holds anybody back. I think it's people.

You know, some of the people you have on this podcast are such prime examples about it from these ex-Navy Seals. I heard the podcast of Dakota Meyer. And I mean, just there's so many crazy stories of not allowing themselves to become a victim. Right. Just push through. That's the key. And sometimes the obstacles are so insane. I mean, just where we're at in hunting industry, I don't think people realize it was a blessing.

I think some things were just, man, we had a very blessed opportunity. But nobody can't say we worked hard. Right. Man, it didn't. Yeah, we're here now. Didn't just happen. We're in our 50s. I think we're in our, I don't want to say we found peace because I don't want to think we're satisfied.

We're still striding forward. But there is a different dynamic of a vibe that feels good. Definitely. You know, a cup of coffees better. A glass of wine and eating or a cup of bourbon taste a little sweeter, but it wouldn't if I'd have left something on the table. Now I'm trying to figure out, all right, if you stay the same, you get worse. You've got to get better or you get worse.

We're talking about how to improve and what we do. So the journey ain't over, but you find peace. But it did come with a lot of hard work and dedication, literally being broke. literally like I look at that picture I can promise right now me and Cameron Haynes didn't have a pot to pissing right there we were just trying to but we were probably just as happy there as we were now

I mean because we saw the journey ahead and we were just happy to get a couple hungry when you're hungry under armor shirts and I think at that time Hoyt was sending us a bow a year and I'd look in man you know you love bow hunting when you'd go sit on the damn toilet with it

and don't act like y'all somebody's listening to where they went. You're like, you're sitting, you're like, I am taking a shit looking at my bow. What am I doing? And especially when Hoy has sent you one. Yeah. Like, this is crazy.

Yeah. This is insane. And so, I don't know, man. Good memories, man. What a hell of a ride. What I like about it is, you know, because of the industry, how it works, I've been at different brands with people. And maybe they didn't get the attention.

they thought they deserved, so they want to leave that brand. You know what I mean? And to me, what I like is like we've both been with Hoyt for so long. And it wasn't like, I've never looked at like, why are you doing this with Bone Collector? You're not doing this with me. But that happens in the industry a lot. Oh, yeah. You know, at Under Armour that happened.

You know, it's just happened. And it's just, it's so hard. And I can't really talk too much shit because that's competitive. But it's like that turns into a detriment also. does. And so what I feel good about is that we've could be competitive. That's fine. Yeah. And I could see what you do. And I was like, God, I need to work harder if I want those types of our opportunities. That's how I looked at what you did. So I like that it's been healthy in that regard. But it is. It's like, you know, I was telling you yesterday, when I was coming up back then and before when I first started boehunt, I didn't even know people paid off houses. I didn't know if I thought you just always had a car payment. You know, I'm just, I'm like, I never thought that I would ever have anything, really, other than bow hunting, maybe a free bow.

And so when I, when I hear about you and you have your, I mean, do you have 500 acres? Yeah, I got about 550 acres. My wife and I bought 15. Yeah. I mean, how from, you know, from doing what we love has led to those opportunities. I mean, did you ever think that would happen? No, I'd always dreamed of it. I dreamed of it.

But, I mean, think of the things we have dreamed of that are still we're thinking of. So for me, I almost felt oddly weird and guilty, like for having a chance to buy something or get something at that level. Like I was talking to, you know, again, a little bit of a name drop, but Blake Shelton's same way, built a beautiful place. He's put together in a fantastic piece of property in Oklahoma. he and Gwen built this beautiful house. I mean, it's an ebbler.

It's a mansion. And he just, like, he was showing it to me. And Jimmy John was there, the sandwich guy. And Jimmy is such a nice guy, but he can own his wealth. He's like, oh, man, what is this? So-and-so, Marv did you get this in Italy? You know, and he's more comfortable with it. He's very comfortable.

Blake was so awkwardly uncomfortable. Like, I don't need this. But, I mean, how much money is he made? You know what I mean? And so for me, I took the, kind of stance. Like, you know, I'm a little embarrassed, even though there's people's got thousands or thousands acres, but for me to think about owning, you know, over 500 acres in Georgia that I got food plots on and I got me a nice tractor that I can plow and I got me a pecan farm. And my wife

and I just built our dream house and I got a cool barn down there with guest quarters. If you want come down there and bring the family, bring Tanner down. I was so aggravated to find out Tanner and went through Fort Benin. He could have, he could have threw a rock to Uncle Watt. house and I could have made it tougher on PT with him eating that fried chicken and cornbread down at my place. But I'm almost, I'm very proud of it, but I'm also kind of guarded like, man, I don't, I don't want to show off on it or feel like, I don't know, it feels weird for me, but I think that comes from that humility of dreaming, but then realizing like, oh my God, I got it. And so yeah, I mean, dream come true inevitably, or to go on the hunt so we go on sometimes. It's crazy.

But it's also, it's like, should you shy away, I understand that, because it is the American dream. Yeah. I mean, didn't you come, when you came out of high school, you got, what, HVAC? Yeah, HVAC, heating and air. Yeah, so. And I remember, I think I listened to a podcast and you said you had your own van, had your name on it, and your family was like, why would you quit this, you know? And so it's not like this just happened.

No. And all of a sudden you had, oh, must be nice. He's got this 500 acres. It's awesome. and, you know, everything going his way, that whole journey, like that decision to not take the H-FAC job or not pursue that career, but to go at real tree and make $20,000 here or whatever it was, that's where that's how you got to where you're at now. Correct.

So that tough decision, how many people would have done that same thing? I think that's the same for you and I both stories. That's what this picture represents. If you look at that picture, both of us in our 20s, photo shoot for Under Armour, 2004, I almost break things almost in percentages. I've always looked at life, and I luckily looked at it then, and I don't know if you looked at it this way, but out of 100%, obviously, that's what it is, if you've got a 15 or 20% chance of making it in something,

whether it's say I want to be a country singer, whether I want to be an influencer, YouTube star, you know, on outdoor channel, whatever it might be, an actor, you know, comedian, you always have that percentage that you can make it in that. But you understand the odds are going to be against you because there's 20% of people, maybe less, maybe 5%. I mean, we were talking last night, when you get into that category of, say, what Joe is doing right now, Tucker Carlson, that's up there in a probably one percentile. two percentile of people and influence. Probably less. Probably less than that. And so in reality,

but let's just say making it in country music, okay, and say you've got a 10% 15% chance of making it. Maybe it's less. My idea was like, well then that leaves me a 90% chance to make it in something else. Why not go after the 10% now?

You and I did when we were young in our 20s. It's almost like, why not go after it now? And I already, thank God, already somewhat, I wouldn't say I had that Goggins, mindset or kind of what you preach and just work harder. I don't know if I had that mindset, but inevitably I had something in me that said, well, I better do it now. I got an HVAC.

Bill Jordan, real tree's making money. They need a cameraman. They need a guy. They need somebody to help hang his stands. Dale Earnhardt wants to hunt with a good turkey collar. Man, I'm pretty good turkey caller. I must hunt with me. And so I started looking.

I started chipping away. I was like, wait a minute. Now I went. from a 10% chance to where in the door, now I might have a 40% chance to all of a sudden, here we are, you made it. And I always say, somebody's got to be Prince. Somebody's got to play a guitar.

Not that like we were talking about, you need to emulate and be Prince, but somebody had to be Prince. Somebody's got to be the next basketball player that's great. And even though there's a lot of them. So if you look at it, we all have equal opportunity if we understand our abilities and talents, I think.

And then even if you want to try something, like for instance, I use this as an example. I love outdoor motocross. Love it. Like keep up with those guys, met some of those motocross guys. They're my heroes. I think they're some of the best athletes. So what do I do when I'm 40? Made enough money and bought me a $4.50 by all my kids.

I built a freaking motocross track that you could race outdoor nationals on. Well, what did I do? I can't even hardly draw my bow. I'm breaking my back. bust it up, breaking ribs, because I'm still 12 years old, but I'm a 40-something-year-old man out here trying to race this 450 dirt bike. I suck. My goal was I want to run a few races and try to win like a little amateur thing. Well, I got in a few and I got sack at one and then the next motto I freaking just crush, kill myself. So my wife is like, no sympathy like, this is the last

time we do it. So it hit me. I'm like, okay, I've gotten way out of my lane. And so I realized I have zero chance probably if even win in just the over 40 division, right? But I'm glad I did it. Yeah. And so it could be somebody that wants to try stand-up comedian or maybe they want to start bow hunting or whatever. And so I don't know, man. I think in that that's been the coolest cool thing to see that pitchers because that was a lot of journey ahead. And me and you put some dice on the table right there.

But, I mean, we rolled them. We rolled them. And so to have that opportunity is pretty crazy. And my family did not understand it, Cameron. My grandmama, I mean, it was so blue-collar and so basic American get you a good job, get good health benefits. What can the company give you? 401K. 4-1-K, great Christmas party.

Man, you can get a free turkey every year. They give free turkeys out down there. Or ham. You can pick a turkey. turkey or ham for Christmas. For free. For free. You know,

or hey, and if you work there, if you're there for six months, you get two vacation days. And y'all know y'all like to go down in Gulf of Mexico and go to Edgewater and go play in the sand. Like that's going to be big to your family. And so I bought into it.

Yeah. But then I was also thinking, is there more than this? So I think what happens in people's depression or aggravation, especially when they get our age, they're mad. They went that route. Right.

And I think, And I thought in my mind, like, I could be screwing up. My uncle might be right. I might be, man, that uniform says Michael on it. Yeah. Barringer's heating and cooling. I'm pretty good at fixing these air conditioners. And he told me he's going to give me a raise next year.

And give me, you know, if I sold brand new train, you know, heat pumps, he'd give me, you know, 2% on all of them. And I can make a $500 extra if I sold them this particular sear unit. And I am not knocking anybody. matter of fact those everyday hardworking guys are my heroes but if you get to a place where you think it's too late you can actually get more bitter in aggravation yeah i think that's where most that the online hate comes from is like the guys who didn't make that decision yeah that tough decision like should i take the divan with my name on it or should i chase this dream and then they get down the road and it's too late and then they're just then they're bitter yeah and they feel like they're just jealous of where you're at now, not the journey you did.

Because nobody wants to, all the, you talked about the challenges, the failed marriage, the missing your kids and I'll make the money. Nobody wants to talk about that. They just see where you're at right now. That's correct. And that's, you know, I mean, I think it's human nature in some ways, but yeah. God, it's so cool and so deep, man. I figured, you know, when we got a chance to talk, because I didn't, you know, when you invited me up, which I was on, to be part of this podcast. I didn't know which all direction it would take

because there's so many roads, but it is crazy about the timing and how we had our opportunity to work in this space. You know, culturally and everything that transpired, and it's, I don't know, it's been pretty wild, but I will say that

does what makes America great. And it's caused me where I'm at, it's caused me to kind of have, I might not be saying this right, less empathy for people and complainers because I realize how hard I have work, but I realize that they're spending so much energy mad at the people that succeeded when I see something in them that they don't see in themselves. So it's not that I'm mad that

they're being negative. I'm mad that it's like, did you not look in the mirror? Are you just looking at social media and seeing this person? Did you not look at your ability and talents? And if you did and you can't admit that you were talented, why did you not take to gamble? You'll sit here in Vegas and put $100 on a blackjack hand, but you wouldn't put damn ten bucks on yourself. Right. So why are you mad at me? Yeah. There is a part of confidence, not arrogance. If you can't bet on yourself, who the hell you're going to bet on? I've always thought, I told him, I saw, you know, you go out in Vegas and give him that card. I was at the Venetian pit boss. That's what I'm thinking of. And I'm playing blackjack. And I enjoy blackjack. And I enjoy black

Jack, it's fun. And I'm not a big gambler, but I enjoy the game, and I like getting me a little cocktail. And, you know, it's one place you can have your cigar and sit there at the table and laugh and cut up. And I can meet, I like the bullshit and tell stories. So I can sit around. It's just I'm laughing, cutting up. And I'll figure out what I won't lose. If I lose it, I lose it.

If I win, it's a happy day. And I'm just talking more trash at the table, you know. And I told that pit boss, I said, y'all got this wrong. I said, we're betting on a hand that we don't know nothing about. We're playing a game and wondering and hoping we get. get that paint card or get an ace hoping she bust or whatever. I said, if you really want to make some money on us men, I said, give us a chance to bet on ourselves.

You ought to have a hoop swinging and throw a football through the hoop, have a ring the bell where you can put $20 double of nothing. Can you imagine me and you? I mean, I don't lift a lot, but can you imagine me and you and Joe Rogan and your buddy Dana White walking up to a ring the bell in Vegas and it's $100 to ring the bell. Cameron, we would all die. Yeah, trying.

If we couldn't. Can you imagine how many times we would like? Because when it's not a gamble. Right. We're used to betting on ourselves. And then it would get in like, Cameron, I got $100 on you. Damn it, man. You know I ain't been lifting.

I've been eating cornbread and macaroni and cheese. Damn, come on. And next thing you know, we would be broke because we're betting on ourselves. Right. Because that's the kind of personality we are. Some of my buddies would never bet on themselves, man. Right. They never would.

You know, I say that too. I say, I know you probably have also, but if I've made it, anybody can. And it's, you know, if you went to where I grew up, it's, there's no big dreams out there. You know, is it 24 kids in my high school class, 100 in the whole school, people just worked in the woods or in the mill. That's what, there was nobody with these big dreams. So if, if I can come from there, you can come from Bougar Bottom and be the, you know, the most famous hunting TV slal. there's ever been, anybody can. Anybody can.

You have to believe in yourself. You have to believe. And not only that, but you have to be tunnel vision focused and work because you've worked your ass off. Yeah. You know, and like you say you're not good with numbers or whatever. You're a definite visionary because you had a vision for this brand and this brand, your brand is iconic, right?

So, yeah, you can talk like the simple country talk, but God dang, you had a vision. Yes, I will say that. And thanks for even saying that. And it's flattering those comments or compliments you give me. But it's crazy because as crazy and visionary as you have inevitably, it becomes this simple conception of just kind of stay focused in work. And like we said earlier in the talk, there's things that fall behind because you're focused here. You're like, wait a minute, Mason, I ain't been to his ball game.

you know, where, and now I think I'm more conscious of that, you know, now I've got a seven-year-old at home, you know, being through not being a great husband, it's easier for me to really be a good husband to Christy. And, I mean, I still fail. I'm still a dude. I'm still that man child that I'm sure she loves and hates because I'm still a kid. I mean, you know, I'm sure if I hung out with, you know, me and you all of a sudden, we'd be like stepbrothers around here. The next thing you know, we're running in, making a mess. And your wife had to get on to you and I equally like, take your boots off, Cameron, take your boots off. I'm like, I'm sorry. You know, we're going over to the bow racker. He gave us some new set stuff, you know. Yeah.

But inevitably, I don't know, man, it's such an amazing, life is such an amazing thing. And again, your mistakes and regrets almost are blessings too. It's almost like I'm thankful for it because all that makes you better. You know, there's so many crazy sayings and cliches, but, you know, I've heard it on so many podcasts, people talk about, well, you wouldn't know what a good meal was if you were never hungry. Right. You know, you would never know how good a soft bed is and warm sheets and blankets if you had never been cold or slept on rock. And I think that's it.

I think I see a lot of that and what you guys do and a lot of your guests and friends. friends that, you know, why would you tow to rock up the mountain? Man, sure are going to make it nice that night to sleep. Every night. It's like I'm exhausted, you know. I get out there and work with my dad, you know. And, you know, I ain't running with a rock up the mountain. But every time I go out there and work with my dad, you know, he's about to be 71.

Man, he's the hardest working, man, we'll go cut firewood on my place. I'm like, dad, look now, you my daddy. but we're on my farm and I'm about going to go back to the house because I'm tired of splitting wood and cutting wood on my place. Well, boy, we're going to start it. We're going to finish it. No, we're going to get another load. And I'm like, Dad, it's my place.

I'm over here arguing with my dad like a little kid on my farm, you know, and just exhausted. But at the end of that night, man, you have a glass of sweet tea. You're like, man, it felt good. And so the pain is worth it because that's how you can feel the comforts. And I think that's not to get political or where America's at, but I think the only people want to solve right now. A lot of people, you know, it's true.

It's so where did your competitive drive come from to win or to chase your, where did that come from? Have you always been like that? I would say overall, I think what changed a lot for me that made it, that made me, I felt like there was two sides. So when I was young, I was always in sports and stuff and loved it. But when I was 16, my mom got sick of leukemia and she passed away. And so then it became kind of my dad and I.

And we had adopted a foster sister that was adopted when my mom was still alive, and then she unexpectedly just got sick and passed away. And I think I was angry. So it was a little bit of a kind of a Ray Lewis rage in me to where, On the inside, you know, when I went to football practice, it turned into a little different. You know, I was always not that guy that wanted to really just murder somebody on the football field. I was competitive on the win. But all of a sudden, then I started taking things a little more personal.

I was kind of mad and frustrated and like, you know, almost like, yeah. Life has dealt you an unfair hand. Like, come on, you know, even like questioning like, God, why did you take my mom? She was an amazing person. We had seven foster kids in our house. I was a mama's boy. I mean, she cooked three meals a day, homemade biscuits, mashed potatoes, collard greens, fried chicken.

I mean, your typical southern family, and all of a sudden, it's just me and dad. My dad's got a ninth grade education. And so I think most of that competitive drive come with a little bit of frustration and chip on my shoulder, but hiding behind, you know, just a lot of fun storytelling and good, but that was sincere. So both sides of that was sincere. And two, it's like, you know, I've lost. lost so much and I realize it's just funner to win. I don't like participation awards.

So the people that would like be jealous where you're at, do you think they're thinking about the 16 year old Michael Waddell who lost his mom, you know? Yeah. And like the reason why you have that success or you're so driven is because you've been in the depths of despair because you hurt so bad. And you don't want to hurt that bad anymore. So how can you take away this pain? You can win. When?

And I remember I got in a competition turkey calling, and that's what kind of launched into me, kind of meeting people in the industry. And I had a couple people in my high school. I started turkey calling. It got pretty good. And we all of us old country kids, we went turkey hunting.

All we had, Georgia, was deer and turkey squirrel and rabbit. You know, we used to have a lot of quail, but we don't have that as much anymore. and so when Turkey got kind of real popular, we'd do that a lot, and I got really into it. And I remember my mom had passed away, and so back then, you know, on the country, we had TV, and you had the antenna, so we could watch the Braves, and we had like ABC, NBC, didn't have any of the HBO and cable, stuff like that. My dad had bought a VHS player, so we could watch that, but it wasn't like there was a bunch of console games to play.

Of course, I'm 16, so I really don't want to sit there and play video games. Anyway, and so to occupy my time, I hunted a lot more and then I got in a turkey calling and You know, nobody had cell phone so you sit around the house and I'd buy condoms from the store in these little little bathrooms and cut them up and make make turkey calls with them and matter of fact, I told the story the other day I ended up getting I think it was third place in the world championship with a glow-in-the-dark condom turkey call I made and but I remember before I started a turkey call I remember I told a couple of my buddies that I turkey hunting with, getting back to kind of this weird jealousy or doubt, but it pushed me to do it, but it scared me.

I told some of my buddies, I said, man, I think I'm going to go get in the Georgia State Turk calling contest. It's the first contest coming up. And they're like, are you crazy? Joe Drake and Ricky Joe Bishop are coming there. You know, Dick Kirby still comes and calls in Appalachian Open, and, dude, you're going to be embarrassed. They're going to kick your ass.

And the whole time they're saying it. And I'm thinking, they're right. They're right. They're right. Then the other part of them is like, no, they're not right. I think I'm good enough to compete with them guys, but I'm like, no. So it's almost like the devil and the angel story. And I went.

I went anyway. But I mainly went more because they told me I was going to suck. It was weird. And these are my buddies. Want to prove them wrong. Yeah. I mean, they weren't trying to be mean. Right.

It was almost like, I don't know, what to like it to. Maybe if it's you running. And then all of a sudden it's like, man, I've been, my 40s gotten pretty fast. And you tell me, hey, man, I'm about to have a foot race with old Cam Newton. I'm like, Cameron, you can beat him distance, but don't race that guy on a 40. Man, don't do that. You know what I mean? I don't know.

You might with smoke him. I don't know. But it was almost said in that nature. Right. Wait a minute. Kind of immediately when I say that to you, you think, like, Cameron, Newton. I still got a little. I still got a little.

I still got a step. Don't make me run a little bit more. So that's kind of what it was to me. So a lot of it come from that. And I think that's either in you or it's not. And I know I enjoy being around kids and watching them play baseball and football. And it's cool to see that spark and fire. And it changes, though.

It does change. For me, prior to my mom, I was pretty good football player, but I come a lot better because I went to practice a little bit more, I'd say, angry. You know, and it's funny, that's when I realized, too, the psychology. of a good coach. Because I remember that was the first time. To my mom had never seen me play and start on the varsity team. And she loved.

She always said that, you know, you're going to play Manchester football, which is a high school I went to. And you're going to play with the Georgia Bulldogs and play with Atlanta Falcons. I mean, she never even knew about a hunting industry. And, well, she never even got to see me play varsity football at Manchester. So when I got to start, I remember, my football coach

every time if he wanted to piss me off if I would be slack and he's like you think I was making your mama proud boy and I would want to murder I mean I wanted to but every time I'd just go run out there and just hit anybody

I'd run over the cheerleader like I'm going to hurt somebody this next play this guy talked because he would remind me he punched that button and he knew that that was something he knew it put the chip on me

so I think that's How about for you? I mean, it's similar? Kind of that same, the doubters? What does you? Yeah, doubters for sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I was going to say, though, with your mom, how long was that hard for? Like, you know, a mom is at that age, I don't know, I can't imagine what that would be like. You know, I lost my dad, but it was, you know, I was 40. Right. As a 16-year-old when you, when she had that presence on your house, with the foster kids and the cooking and to take that away. I mean, I can't imagine that pain.

How long was that to that? You know, to be honest, I don't know, because I was a mama's boy, man. I don't know that I ever got over it. You get over it in a way that becomes a positive, never forget kind of thing. I heard Billy Bob Thornton talking about that and losing his brother. It was, man, probably the sad thing. this thing I experienced. And at that time, you know, I'd lost my grandparents, which I was really close when I was

12. And it's crazy. It's almost like a lot of folks I really cared a lot about passed away when I was young. And then my mom at 16 was almost like just sucker punch. And, you know, and to me, she was just an angel on earth. And so, yeah, it changed the whole culture of our home because it was very simple. My dad made the money. My mom was a homemaker.

and I don't care if it was seven families coming to our house. Mama was come on in and it was always food. I don't know how she did it. And just an amazing lady. And so... Oh, it's her name? Her name was Susie. And so I think, I mean, everything I do, I feel like she's kind of still there.

And here's a, here's a, you're talking about an odd story that relates to like a divine type of vibe. I remember forget I was hunting in the Gila National Forest for elk. I put this in the book, but I had never told it on a podcast. But I never forget I had road trips was doing well, and it was this really nice bull, about a 315, 20-inch bull on this public ground in the Gila. And there was a lot of hunters in there. I kept running. It was the first time I had elk hunted.

I had always seen trucks, but I was hearing callers around me. It was almost like a turkey hunt. I could hear it like, oh, my God, who was it? that's somebody like we're in here with other bow hunters so anyway we finally get this bull working I was hunting with a buddy of mine and this bull come up through there by 40 yards and he was a little quartering to me and I shot him felt like I put a really good shot on it well we tracked him a lot of blood couldn't find him and I said man I had to just get one lung you know so then I was frustrated because now I'm like dead gum it and so we had looked and I got up and Nick Munt was in

camp he was hunting so they met up and we tracked a little while So it finally gets to be about 1 o'clock. And we ain't got, we ain't hardly got nothing in our packs, you know. We had to add some water. And so my buddy in mind, he said, man, we're going to get back to the camp and eat us something. And why don't we come back and let's refresh and we'll come back and look for this bull this afternoon. And, dude, the weirdest thing.

I'm sitting there. And last blood we had on this bull was about three-quarter mile up this ridge. We just fell off the next valley and maneuvered our way. down the valley back to the truck to the rig and I said hey man I'm just going to stay right here I got a little old candy bar in my pack I'll meet this candy bar I'm going to take me a nap because y'all ain't going to be gone an hour or two and y'all will come back and dude I'm sitting there under this tree I'm trying to take a nap ate my candy bar and for some reason I just started having this conversation with my mom I'm like mom a dead gummit you see you know I was just

talking to her like she was there and and literally almost if somebody had a camera on me or slipped up on me, they thought I was crazy. I was so bad talking to Mama. I mean, I'm not getting a response. I'm like, dang, mama's been crazy. Man, help me find this bull. Some of a gun, you see where it go. And it was almost like a weird something out of a movie. And so anyway, I'm getting anxious and like, man, I said, and I'm thinking myself, like I hit that bull pretty good. And just like we do a thousand times, you know, I had an old flip phone at the time. And I'm videoed that flipped a bit. It was terrible. It wasn't like our iPhone. I'm like, I couldn't say, man, look, like I hit him. good. So I'm sitting there and I'm like, I'm sitting there and I'm like, mom, you got to help me

find this bull. And so finally, I kind of get up and start kicking rocks and I'm just kind of walking circles and I'm wanting to walk up to hill and start looking again. I'm like, no, wait another 45 minutes. My buddies will be here. I'm not a good blood tracker anyway. I'm red, green, colorblind, terrible blood tracker. So I start walking kind of back down the ridge and I and I knew that there was old water tank down there. And I was going to go see if there's any sign on because a couple buddies in camp still had tags. I go walking down there where I look and there's a truck parked down there. And I said, oh, man.

And I just been telling, talking kind of to my mom and I said, man, you know what? I looked in my pack and I had a little old envelope where I had a license and I had a pen where you could sign a tag. So I started writing a note and like, hey, this is my number. My name is Michael. Hit a bull. If you guys are hunting in the area, just let you know if you find a six by six. and he shot on the right side with a muzzly broadhead in him. It's my bull.

And so in my mind, I'm saying, I'm going to go down there. So I got back kind of, and luckily I brought my bow. Why I brought my bow, I don't know. And I'm only about 300 yards from where I was laying on this pine tree. And I'm walking. I said, mama, that God, I'm going to leave this guy. I said, man, this bull has got to be here. By the time I look out behind this dude's truck, like his truck is parked here,

I look and this elk walks out from behind the truck. And it's a six-per-six. And I grabbed my binoculars and I look and said, God, that looks like my bull. And I'm like, it can't be my bull because my bull was up the ridge up here. Why would that bull come way down here? He would have had to do a loops on my mind. For some reason, some game warden or somebody's going to say, well, this was unethical. I literally thought that's my bull.

But in back of my mind, I can't be sure. And I couldn't tell. It was on the opposite side of where I'd shot him. So I couldn't see any blood. But Cameron is one of the best shots every paper. My wife is a bull's cutting across. He's about 82 yards. But I can tell he's hurt.

Yeah, struggling. He just, you know, you've seen how the wounded elk or just after a fight and he has stopped and he goes walking. He's laboring. And in my mind, I'm not sure that that's my bull, but that's a wounded bull. And I said, but he's too far and I range him. He's like 82 yards clipping through and there was a deadfall. And I never get. I put my pen where I felt like I need to hit him.

and it was wads of and it was in the brush but above my pens was clean so I knew my air was shoot over the brush and arc in there. I let that error go and immediately I knew I hit him good like

and he was run off and bro a cold chill come over me like oh my God I'm going to jail I just shot two ill freaking out I'm freaking out and at the time I went back

didn't even go over there thought I heard him fall. And dude, it was almost like I just robbed a bank, so I go back and like, oh man. And I'm sitting there like, and I went back like a little kid like, Mama, what have I done? Oh, my God. What do I do? My buddy, when they get back, what do I tell them, you know?

So they come back and the guy that was producing or running camera time, I said, hey, come here right quick. And everybody's getting out of the truck and I run for here. And they're like, where are you going? I'm going up here. I said, hold on a second. I was going to show, you know, I run down. man, and I went to where that hit shot. You could see, I saw where he lunged.

I said, man, will you do me a favor? Will you find me, see if you see any blood? So he goes on the opposite where the bull had been walking from. There's blood. He said, there's blood. And I said, there's blood. He said, God, there's good blood. I said, man, I think I just shot my bull.

He said, what? So we come back and I told the guys and guy named Perry Huntsaker was there. I said, Perry, I just got another area. I'm pretty sure my bull or a wounded bull. And sure enough, we went over there, this bull went about 70 yards. My bull laying dead. I put another air in him. And the whole time, I'm like, man, I got choked up.

I'm like, mama, there go. Mama done brought me some victory on that. She bailed you out on that one. She did. It was the weirdest most surreal thing. So, yeah, you never get over it. You know, I still think about mom. I still be on the farm or have a nice meal with my family.

And I, you know, like, man, mom, wish she was here. you know so you know just people like that have such an amazing impact like your dad with you and i don't know yeah crazy no it's uh i i just know that that seemed like a critical time obviously critical time you lose your mom but you used it what i'm i think that what i take away from that is you used it for positive correct you know some people get heartbroken or lose people they love or maybe get a divorce or relationship or whatever and they go the other way yeah you know then they're the victim their whole life and and instead of instead of that you were like I'm better a football I'm gonna do this for you know I'm gonna talk to my you know pray to my mom or talk to my mom and see if she can

help me and like keep that as a just as a positive instead of a why me and maybe you had the maybe had the why me moments I don't know but I have had some of those why matter of fact the biggest mistakes that I've ever made was in the why me or justify an action because of the way I was treated, you know, it could be in bad marriage, it could be in a situation where a friend, you know, and I've learned that, because, you know, I think about people, you know, like I meet, you know, people that are addicted to drugs and you see these scroll come across or as you're looking on, you know, a feed on Instagram or, you know, TikTok or whatever you're looking at, you'll see these interviews where they're interviewing homeless people that are addicts.

And it's easy to quickly see and say, man, what are they thinking? But obviously that was a pivotal point to where they were so hurt and so down and out that they turned to something. Or it could have been that it was just a, they were in a pretty happy time, wrong party, having a good time with their buddies and try Crystal Miff for the first time, and it just grabs a halt to them. But I think most of my friends, I know, they had something tragic happened. and they took a wrong turn, so they turned to a crutch. And in my life, I've done that. You know, it's like, and every time I realize I justified this

because of something that happened to me or the way I was being treated, but I was just as wrong as who had this treated. You reacted wrong. I reacted wrong. So that took a lot of maturity too. So I never had that happen with my mom. It wasn't like I was so down and out like, dude, I'm just going to go get on some cocaine and go party

and just forget the world. I think there's a reason pain is there sometimes. You know, we feel it. You know, your legs hurting, you let you know. You've got to definitely take something for the pain, but that, you know, if there's something hurting in your heart or something hurting in a relationship, you know, you've got to look, what is this?

And sometimes it can be some, it might be some mental illness or something. But in a lot of cases, there's something that needs to be fixed there. And so inevitably, you can turn to the wrong thing to fix it, And it just. To mask it. Yeah. And then all of a sudden the problem that you went to fix, ain't even a problem.

Now you got this. And I've done that. I've done that. So I've made a lot of mistakes that way. But I'm a lot wiser now as to know that, hey, man, this sucks. But you just, like you're talking about Joe Rogan, you go hug at person. Yeah. It's wrong.

You rather than I get him. And we look at Tupac and Biggie Smalls. They're both dead. Why? I know. They didn't have to do that. I don't, I guess I'm figuring out it's connected. Maybe that's a whole other podcast.

I know. We talk about Tupac all the time, how young he was and how much he accomplished and then to be taken away. Over something dumb. Yeah. Over a beef, probably, I guess. For sure. Probably a girl. Mm-hmm.

Probably a girl or territory or something. Yeah, yeah. I used to every time I walked through MGM Grand, everybody thought I was goofy. I'd walk out of MGM Grand, just like Tupac. Every time I'd walk. I remember that video. Look at the MGM Grand. Every time we stayed there, I'd walk out.

And I still do it. When I walked through reception, I'd do it every time. Wasn't it at the BET Awards or something, leaving that? Or was it a Tyson fight? Tyson fight. That's what it was. Yeah. At the MGM Grand, yeah.

And I remember we used to stay there for the shot show. Yeah, yeah. And I'd walk out to the lobby every time people would laugh and like, what are you doing? I'm Tupacin, baby. I was, I did have, this is my own question. What do you think is the biggest threat to hunting's future? anti's, politics, or fellow hunters tearing each other down? I think fellow hunters tearing each other down.

I really do. And political unjust. I think things sneak up on us like the Colorado Wolf situation. I think there's some organizations that fight it good. But man, we have got to do better in the hunting community of kind of picking each other out, but also bringing that good accountability to the people who need it. There are some people doing some things that's just pretty ruthless. They're not hunting out of the joy of hunting.

They're hunting because they feel like this is a lane that maybe can get them some fame. They're in it because maybe it's the last thing. Maybe they weren't that good as a motocross rider. Maybe they wasn't that good at singing. And then I was like, wait a minute. Maybe they weren't hot enough to be a model. Yeah, wasn't quite hot enough. You know, maybe it's this or that.

And I'm like, wait a minute, I can go buy some air. time over to Outdoor Channel and do me a show or I can pretend that I know about shooting a bow or start talking the lingo and you can create a lot of facade. But inevitably, I think we're in a good place and I have seen it especially in the last, I would say, three or four years. I've seen it and following you in the culture of hunting and the people you're hanging with. It seems to me there's been a little bit of shift where you and I grew up as kids hunting, So absolutely, if we get to go to the desert red or we get to go to a really cool place to hunt elk on a reservation or go to the hila, we absolutely going to be strategizing like, dude, man, we're there's a three-six deal. We're going to try to kill a big elk.

But I'm noticing the people I'm around, they're wanting to just learn how to do it and how to eat elk chili like we did last night. Yeah. They're mesmerized by that. Being a provider. Yes. So I think the trophy hunting stuff ain't over, but I'm starting to see it's less important over all to the culture. And I think with society, politics, the way the world is, like you were telling me, there's a lot of people in New York City that love what you do. They would love a day to hang with you to see what you do, whether it's the fitness or just your life to eat the chili. You know, you look at Duck Dynasty, what those guys brought to the table. There was people all. of the LA that love those bearded rednecks that duck-cutting from Louisiana, Willie and all the boys. And so in Italy, there's some positivity to that to realize that there's culture that people want to explore. And now with the uncertain of politics and what's going on in society, can you go

buy a chicken breast at the store and buy a ribby? So I think people are starting to look at us a little different. They're not looking at us as just a stone cold killer. They're like, that man right there can provide for his family. He puts meat in the freezer with his own hands. That's correct. He's not afraid. I mean, I don't like a lot of the politics going on, but to be honest, I have zero fear of, I do have fear of some of the stuff

and say, you know, let's call it some type of weird, you know, what are these people that's coming across the border? Is there some type of, it is, I said their military age male. What is going on? we have to fight. But when it comes to this, like, hey, luxury is to goes out, and whether I'm stuck out here with you

or your family stuck with mine, dude, we're going to have a good time. Be all right. We're going to eat good. It's going to be a little hot, you know. It might be a little warm if it's in July and we're in Georgia. Like, geez, you know.

But I'm not worried about that. And I think a lot of people and a lot of these personalities celebrities that are coming to you and I, they're like, hey, I don't have to kill a 370. But can you teach me the right way to shoot a bow? and if I were to shoot it in the elk, where should I aim? And how do I dress him?

What's the best part to eat? Yeah. You know, I saw Ronella, you know, he ate some, he ate the eyeballs out of a caribou. Is that good? And, you know, I don't know. I mean, let's start with the backstrap, but it gets too hard. Get to the eyeballs. That's all right.

Yeah, exactly. So inevitably, maybe it was Rinella who kind of shed a light on that part at the beginning. But inevitably, I think that's a good place, hunting. can go is this it's crossing over to where it ain't just people wanting to learn it's I feel like it's a little more accepted in one way to a degree um because people are yeah I think Rogan's helped a lot and you know and you know people there's people in our industry who like to take a shot at Joe just because he's had some amazing opportunities and one one thing I'll say about it is I've been with him on a lot of hunts and yeah he's killed some giant bulls

And people will say, oh, well, best places. He's guided. He's whatever. He has never said, what does that bull score? In fact, he's like, there'd be a one horn bull. Yeah, broke off its whole one side. It might be a little six point on the other side. And he'll be like, can I shoot that one?

He doesn't care. Does elk hunt. Does not care about any score, how big it is, whatever. He just loves to hunt. So it's like, your point reminded me of that. Like we've been so infatuated with score for so long. And it was all about, you know, we got guys out there like 200 inch buck. I killed this many 200 inch bucks.

I think it is getting to a, it's shifting a little to where it's like just being that provider, just being self-sufficient. And that's, that's the draw instead of the score of these animals. And because Joe is such a vocal supporter of hunting and why it's important, it's great that he never has mentioned score. I've never heard him say anything about a score of a bullies killed one time. 100%. It hit me too last night when we were talking, we were just talking about hunts.

You asked me if I had anything coming up. I said, well, we're getting ready to turkey march. And I said, and also we're a, I might go hog hunting or something. You said, man, I'm going hog hunting too. And so it's like, yeah, me and Rinella and Joe might go hog. Now think about it. Who's going to go weigh the hogs or measure tusks? But who wouldn't want to be in that camp?

How fun would that be to be? To be hanging out. And so to be with Rogan and Ronella. And I can only imagine the campfires and the BS, the sarcasm, and the cutting up. And again, there's your trophy. Where I got some buddies that are going to chase a big white tail. And man, I love kill a big white tail.

You and I both have shot some really nice high-score in white tails. So I don't want to be that guy like you said, well, it's easy for y'all because y'all have done it. But man, it's almost like I got some friends. It's got some lonely, dusty trophy rooms, man. And they have to go in there and drink their expensive bouron and cigar and look at it, look at it and like, nobody wants to come hang with you, man, because you're an asshole. You are so driven. Yeah.

You can't even make love to this animal. Yeah. Matter of fact, your wife didn't even make love to you more because you killed it. Yeah. She hates you for it too. Right. That 380 meant more to you than her or friendship. Yeah.

But when I say that, I get it because I've never crossed that line to get to that area, but I've been close a few times. Boy, I've been right on it. I picked like, oh, wait a minute, come back over. But you know what's interesting to me is so we've been together now for two days hanging out, shooting bows. Other than the bull you talked about that your mom helped you find and get that other arrow in, we haven't talked about a score of an animal. Nope. It's just been about our love of what we do.

So it's like, yeah, we hunt and we kill. That is how you define yourself as a hunter. but that's not, it's everything else. It don't, it don't. I'm looking here, I mean, like if we did, I'm pretty well versed on understanding elk scores. There is some high scoring elk that you killed in this room. But what's cool about it is my point on that would be like, congratulations to you because I know that was a trophy.

It don't make me love or like you anymore because I, you know, I'm on love and like you because I know the man you are, and I'm just happy for it. He gets back to a financial thing. I'm just happy for you. It doesn't, you know, your kid didn't love you anymore. Your wife didn't say, now, you're the sexiest piece alive. You killed that big elk.

And I think that's what people miss. They think people are going to look at them different to a degree. But I think it's the whole journey inevitably to where I'm just happy for you and a goal. And I can look at it like, holy cow, Cameron, what did that score? that's a giant. Where did you get it? You know, we could get to that point if we had more time.

But the most important things is like, what's been up? Where's been going on our journey? I know you're good. I know you're a good elk hunter. So I know if you're in the mountain, you're probably going to have a chance to be successful. And so inevitably,

I'm not surprised by this. You already, you already had me as a friend and a fan without having to do that. Right. If that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. No, it does.

I mean, I just think that, know what what and it's just it's not like we're trying to prove anything like what's important to us but what's important to us comes out and it and it wasn't do you see oh do you see this one this one scored blah blah blah because i you know i know i know you have too i've been in camp nothing has turned me off worse and i remember i was in this camp in colorado this guy showed me this video and he's just like he goes you think this bull will score 353 and i'm like i i don't know i have no idea he's like because I killed a 353, and if this one, they wanted me to kill this one. And if this doesn't score over that, then I'm going to be pissed off.

And I was just like, I said, who cares? I said, who cares with that bull? Do you want to kill that bull or not? I was just pissed. And it's like, I almost, I don't know if I almost got kicked off there because it's a great place. But God, that made me upset. I'm the same way, man. I was like, it doesn't fucking matter what it scores.

Exactly. What does it matter? It's almost like the biggest bull ever shot was. He was right at 380. And again, it was on the heala. That's a big bull, by the way. Oh, that was huge. And I got him with my bow, and I was so happy.

I didn't know how big this bull was going to be. We'd seen him been hunting him. And oddly enough, Hatt Tucker had an era, had a carbon express. He had been shot the year before in it. It was the craziest thing when we packed them out. They're tough animals. God, they're so resilient. But I remember that night we was sitting around an old fire out there in New Mexico,

and one of my friends said, man, what's you going to do now, Wadale? You know, killed you're a 380 with your bow. What you're going to do now? I said, kill the first 260. I see it comes jiggling in. I said, you know, it's almost like I feel like I can go down now. That's like I did this.

I don't want to beat it. That was a pinnacle. It's like, I'm good, you know. It almost gives me more security to go somewhere and hunt, you know. I understand that. Well, I just looked at the time. I got to get you over to the airport, but Michael, It's been a huge honor to have you here in my home and to share these stories with you.

Again, I've looked up to you for decades. For decades, you've been this icon in the industry. You didn't start as an icon, but you are definitely the biggest TV icon and hunting that might ever be now, for sure, because of how the industry has changed or the networks changed. But it's, you know, so much respect for what you've built, what you do, who you are. Thank you for coming. Thank you for sitting down and talking about. with me. Thank you. Cameron's same thing, man. I can go to the same sentiments. It's been,

I knew it would be fun, but it's been even more special, almost to the point of where, I don't know, man, I feel like it just rekindled everything that we've had a chance to see each other do. And now I'm saying like I'm looking forward to doing more. And officially that way we can't get out of it. I'm definitely, I heard you had never hunted a turkey. I got to get you on a fun. That's what we have to do. Maybe we just have to get together a big group of some of our friends. Go chase some turkeys and do something laid back. And I'm sure we could pick up another. Or elk.

I ain't afraid. You ain't got to twist my arm too hard on oil. We got to make up for last year. That's right. You had that tough year last year. Exactly. But that's bow hunting. That is.

People think that, hey, you just show up and the animals die. You've got to earn that shit. So anyway, thank you, Michael. Big honor. Let's keep it going. Thank you, Cameron. Appreciate it. All right.

Keep hammering, guys.