Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 060 - Ken Rideout

Episode Date: February 23, 2024

Join us for a discussion with Ken Rideout, a runner, speaker, investor and co-host of The Fight with Teddy Atlas Podcast. Learn about Ken’s previous addictions, what started them and how running helped him repurpose his life. Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Connect with Ken: https://www.instagram.com/ken_rideout  Thank you to our sponsors: MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping Eight Sleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/cam use code CAM for $200 off & free shipping on the Pod Cover Ketone IQ: https://hvmn.com/CAM use code CAM for 20% MUD\WTR: https://mudwtr.com/cam use code Cam for 15% off  Leupold: https://www.leupold.com/ Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/  Timestamps: 0:00:00 Intro 0:03:53 Addictions & What Led to Them 0:09:30 Being Poor to Wall Street 0:15:49 Sales Trading, Covering & Trading Commodities 0:21:28 A Fresh Start & Jack Macdowell 0:26:26 The Start of Training for Marathons 0:36:56 Ken’s Connection with The Rock 0:39:57 The Fight with Teddy Atlas Podcast & Boxing 0:48:31 Ken’s Son & Jui-Jitsu  0:52:25 Kids & Life Changing Experiences 0:58:11 The UFC, Dana White & Joe Rogan 01:03:57 Judging in the UFC 01:07:08 Thoughts on Francis Ngannou 01:12:08 Who Ken Thinks is the Best Boxer 01:17:04 Cam’s Journey & Fighting for Success 01:21:18 The “51% Mindset” 01:24:30 The Mindset of a Winner 01:32:38 Training Young Boys to Work Hard 01:35:18 Ken’s Goal With His Upcoming Book 01:42:32 Ken’s Work at a Prison 01:53:46 Micky Ward & Dicky Eklund: Childhood Struggles 02:07:13 Age & Performance  02:12:09 Outro

Every step I take, I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel, gather up my energy, and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I move it's so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. All right. I'm here with Ken Wrightout.

You're on the Keep Hammering Collective. It's an honor to have you. Oh, it's an honor to be here. I feel slightly nervous and anxious, actually. No. Although after the beating you gave me on the run, I'm like, good to go now. I don't I don't well first of all that didn't happen but I don't I don't believe you're you seem like the most confident person I've ever met you're not yeah what would you be nervous about I would say oh oh nervous oh just self-conscious insecure all the things that come with being a drug addict but I would say that um you know much like a fighter you you're not going to come in advertising and appearing to be nervous when you are nervous I get nervous about things that are important to me and things that matter and this is an interview that you know that matters is important to me.

Oh, well, that's, you know, I'll just tell you how I feel about this. I mean, I've been following along on your journey for a long time. I've been a huge fan. I've been inspired by, you know, I don't know you personally, but I've seen your performances and how you can run. And it's like your times and, you know, we don't make excuses for our age because, you know, whatever the fuck. We're old as shit, but we still get it done.

So that's been inspiring to me. you look like a i mean to look shredded great stories smart capable and so i'm like god this guy i got to be on my a game for kin ride out you're gonna make me cry well i'm just telling you how i feel i mean this thank you man that's honest i mean it's uh again you know i've looked at a lot of your story or what i've heard about your story and it's like i've had other people listen to podcasts you've been on i think maybe with rich um maybe some others too because i oh I think maybe it was with Nick Bear, but anyway, you're just so, you know,

I don't want to say vulnerable, but I mean, just so open about your challenges. And to me, that was, I don't know, it's just, that's not what men do usually. Usually we like to, you know, everything's fine. I'm the baddest guy out there, never show weakness. And I think I always inspired, part of that inspired me too,

that you were so open and honest about your challenges. Yeah, man. And I feel like, first of all, I'm super honored and humbled to be here, hearing all those things said about me. It doesn't even seem like you're talking about me. I'm just, like you say in your book, I'm just like a regular guy, just trying to do the best that I can. But in terms of sharing the vulnerabilities, I think everyone feels those things. And, you know, it's one of those things where when I start talking about it, people, and when I mentioned those kind of vulnerabilities initially on Rich Roll, people really connected with it. And I'm like, oh, do people feel insecure about sharing this?

Like, no one's a savage all the time. Everyone has like emotional ups and downs. And it's been interesting to see how people connect with the vulnerabilities. And because I don't, I know what you mean about people. No one wants to show weakness. And I feel like sharing my vulnerabilities, I don't view it as a weakness. I view it as a strength. I'm in touch with what's going on.

If I don't feel weak, if someone wants to try and. try me. I'm a very easy person to find. Yeah. I don't feel weak physically. And I think, you know, having gone through recovery, they'll tell you that you're only as sick as the secrets you keep. And I think talking about these kind of the vulnerabilities and the things that led me to addiction is therapeutic for me. And keeping that shit to myself didn't serve me very well. And it doesn't serve anyone very well well so you talked about what led you to addiction what was your addiction uh pain pills so opioids so for roughly 10 years i abused opioid pain medicine 24 7 for roughly 10 years hmm what and what led to that insecurities vulnerabilities um well so could be so

vulnerability could be a strength and a weakness yeah not getting comfortable with it is certainly a weakness. It's when you're not comfortable dealing with your emotional ups and downs and your emotional weaknesses can lead you to look for an escape hatch from those feelings. And that's what I always tell people is the drugs, my experiences with drugs weren't necessarily. I'm going to get high because I want to feel good. I just don't want to feel the way that I feel when I'm not high. I don't want to feel insecure and I was suffering from a fraud complex.

and an imposter syndrome after I started working in finance. I went from like a poor kid in the inner city of Boston and then I was a rich guy living in London in New York flying back and forth on the Concord. And it's crazy as it sounds that, you know, people always say money won't make you happy. And I say that to people and they look at me like, I'm crazy. I'm like, well, I was poor, then I was rich,

and I became a drug addict. So did the money make me happier? No, it exposed weak, that were always there. And, you know, when you go through that, not only do you now have to deal with the same feelings that you were avoiding previously, but now you've also got to deal with this addiction problem.

And it was pain in the ass. And I think that once you go through that, you come to the realization that everyone's struggling with something in one way or another. And, you know, talking about it is the only real way out is to deal with it. How did the addiction start? I mean, you just said why.

but did you have an injury or what led to the pills initially? Yeah, the first time I had them prescribed to me, I had an ankle injury and a podiatrist in New York City prescribed me seven percassette. And then he would give me seven every week. I kept going back saying that my foot still bothered me. And I'd take like one or two at a time for a few days. And then he'd give me the prescription. And I changed the seven to a two out of zero,

take it to like a mom and pop pharmacy in New York City. and from there I was off to the races. And then I was very resourceful. I was making money so I could buy them on the street. And I was a very good, good drug addict. I could keep myself in supply. And I was very good at hiding the addiction too. Because it would beg the question, like when I met my wife, like,

I was high all the time. And people would say when I was getting sober, she didn't really know. And then we came to like, she came to that realization one night when I just came clean with everything. and you know the obvious question from people is like how did she not know and I was like she only knew me high she didn't know that I there was another personality under there that I was hiding what was a difference but like was there a noticeable difference between you high and you

sober um yeah I think so but it wasn't like I wasn't a complete lunatic when I was high I was just different I was very high and low, had a lot of energy. I'm sure the addicts out there listen to this go, oh, yeah, that's something you can definitely like function with. But it was a vicious cycle. It was a horrible, horrible experience. It changed my life dramatically. But I'm better for it coming out of it.

And I think that sharing the stories and being able to share the story on a platform like this is helpful to a lot of people because the amount of people that reach out to me is staggering. that either they're going through it or they've gone through it. There was a, I don't want to say his name, but a very famous undefeated fighter recently reached out to me, he said, I'm one day into detoxing. I've got to get through this. And I literally called him on the phone.

I called his dad, and I told them exactly what had to be done. And they actually did it. They went through the week-long withdrawals, got to a week or 10 days sober, and then went and got a shot of Vivitrol, which is an opioid blocker that prevents you from, getting high for like three to four weeks at a time. And I couldn't believe he did it.

It was, it's so hard. It's unbelievable. Yeah. And do you think that's how most of those addictions start is like there's a real reason to use the pills? And then it turns into, then you need them. I think for people that are vulnerable that have any kind of emotional, I don't know if weakness is the right word,

but anyone who's dealing with difficulties from an emotional standpoint, point and get that feeling. It doesn't happen to everyone. Some people can do cocaine occasionally. Other people do it once and they're off to the races. They can't live without it. It's that kind of thing. I mean, even drinking, I guess, can be like that for some people. Yeah, same thing. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I couldn't just be a normal drinker. It's either all or nothing. That's right. And you know how some people, you can see them drinking and you're not like, he's not a raging alcoholic, but the guy's drunk every single night. Like, what defines an alcoholic right but he's not like there's not like red flags and you know sirens going off above his

head advertising his addiction and that's how i was kind of dealing with my addiction you said that you know you you were poor and then you got rich and then you weren't happy were you happy poor i mean no when you're when you're when you're struggling for i don't know what what were your struggles when you were poor um i always say that having money and losing it is much more stressful than never having it. When you don't have it, you don't know really what you're missing. You just know that there's a, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. And I'm trying to get there.

And when you get there and you're like, holy shit, I'm not, this isn't as overwhelming as I thought it would be. Cool. I have a lot of money, but I'm still the same person. Yeah. I don't feel any happier. I don't feel like all my insecurities and vulnerabilities have gone away. Right. And I think that was the realization.

of like, holy shit, money is not the answer. There's only one way to deal with this, and that's to, like, do the hard work of coming to terms with some of the things that we go through in life. So you grew up in Boston, and then did you say, you told me earlier a sociology degree? Is that what you got?

So how does that translate to working on Wall Street? Well, when I went to college, I went and played football, and the guys that I was playing football with at this Division III school, Framingham State, we're like, yo, take sociology. It's the easiest thing. It's the easiest major.

I was like, okay, that's what I'm going to do. I had no. It's interesting. Interesting classes. Not like fucking science. No. I mean, in hindsight, I liked it, but it wasn't helping me get to where I wanted to go.

And I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had no idea. I wanted to play hockey. And that quickly was not going to be my reality. That I came to that quick realization. And I moved to New York and I was working. as a pharmaceutical sales rep for a few months and working out at a local gym and playing in a men's pickup hockey league. And I was seeing all these young guys working in finance at the gym.

And I was like, man, how are all these kids making so much money? And they were all traders and doing different things on trading desks. And I was just like with running. I'm like, I'm going to do that. I have no idea how. And a guy I was playing hockey with a Canadian kid said, hey, we need a trading assistant on our desk and uh and they hired me and i got fired like three weeks later fired why dude this is a crazy story they were hazing me they were like it was like a locker room you know i was like the junior guy and they were constantly terrorizing me and i was like i'm not a punk like why why are they treating me like this like i at some point i'm going to like snap like how are they hazing you you know they just like talk shit talking me like dude write that up there you idiot

don't write this, write that. There was a whiteboard where we'd write the prices. And the guy threw a dry erase at me. And I just slapped him. And they were like, I was ready to kill him, dude. I went crazy. I was like, you're going outside. And he's like, I'm not going outside.

I said, you're going to sleep here. Because when you come outside, you're dead, man. They were like, ah, Ken, you're fired. But much like, you know, you turn in the addiction into a positive by being able to share my story, I called the young guys at Enron that I was. was covering. They were my client and they told the big senior trader at Enron what happened. And that guy called me on the phone who was the equivalent of like Gordon Gecko. I mean, he was huge trader. Like the guys that covered him made millions of dollars. And he was like, hey, I'm going to get

your job on Monday. Tell me what covering means. Oh, sorry. He was a trader and we were like sales cut. We were like sales traders. So we would execute trades for him in charge of commission. Oh, I see. Okay. And that's covering. Yeah. Okay. So sales coverage. So he, uh, he, he, he, He says, I got a job for you. Monday. I was making $40,000 where I got fired. And another place calls me that day, before cell phones. This is in like 96.

And the guy says, hey, so-and-so from Enron called and said, you need a job. I'm like, yeah. He's like, can you start Monday? Yeah? He's like, all right, here's the address. See you then. I'm like, what about pay? He's like, I will start you at $80,000.

I was like, see you Monday. But the best part is when I got there, they were like, all right, call the guy at Enron and ask him what he wants to do today for trades. And he just gave me like a list of trades that was more business than these guys had ever done. Because they were like the bad news bears of trading. That desk was like there were, there's like several desks trading desks trying to do the same business with the same people, maybe like three or four real ones. And yeah, he started giving me all his business and the next thing, you know, like a couple weeks later they raised my salary to 125 grand. Whoa.

And then it just went crazy from there. What do you think that he gave you all those trades? Was it just how you talk to him? Do you like your personality or what was it? He liked the story. He liked that the guys were bullying me and I wouldn't take it. He just was like, I like this. The guy stands up for himself.

Yeah. And so that got you that business. Then that got you the $125K. Yeah. That was just the beginning. I mean, it was like several $100,000 within, by the end of the year, it was like huge money. Really? It was crazy.

Went so fast. Wow. In a year, you were making $40, got fired, and then by the end of the year, you were making what? $500,000? Yeah. That's an, I don't know anything about that world. You know what I mean? I mean, we're on the West Coast. Neither did I. We're talking as far from here as you can get in a whole different world. I mean, because you said you didn't even live in a house until, what, 2013? Yeah. So you were just in Manhattan or, you know, London. And yeah. I mean, what a, I mean, it's such a foreign life to me and this hunting redneck lifestyle I live. That's why it's, I'm asking all these questions. about these little details because fuck I don't know shit no that's cool I haven't thought about

some of them in a while but like very quickly then I got hired at canter Fitzgerald to run European and Asian commodity sales and trading so I went over there they rented an apartment for me it was like I don't know 10,000 dollars a week the rent on the apartment it was like the nicest townhouse in Kensington one of the nicest parts of London I had a brand new Porsche 9-11 like it was crazy I was like I was you know a year ago I was was like barely surviving in a fifth floor studio walkup. And now I live in an entire house in London. And doing what?

What was your job? Sales trading covering trading commodities. Specifically electricity and natural gas. And so what does that entail? So there were like utilities, banks and end users of electricity, for instance. And they have to, electricity has to flow every day. So you like where I work, Springfield Utility Board. Yeah.

We got the BPA line that runs down I-5. Yep. So we had a contract for this amount of money, but then also, or not this amount of power, basically. Yeah, megawatts. And then, so that's locked in, but then by, it's like extra or more or something that's not locked into that. And that's like a daily type thing. So that's what it is. That's exactly right.

So we would trade the next day, power in the morning. So like, okay, power needs to be delivered to this grid. American Electric has power. So and so the utilities wouldn't trade with us. They'd usually go through a bank. So Morgan Stanley might have 20 different utilities that they cover. And the utility might call them and say, hey, we need this.

Then they'd go into the market, call me, and they'd like, hey, I need 50 megawatts for a next day power. And then how do you get that price? Supply and demand. Like, you know, someone has a lot. And they start selling it. and the sellers outnumber the buyers. I see.

But like during the summer, if peak demand is huge and air conditioners are running, the price starts the spike. And that's when you get into like brownouts when you can't deliver enough onto a specific grid. I see.

And so that's what you did. That was in London. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then how long did that last? Two years. Hmm.

And what happened? And Ron went bankrupt and the whole market fell apart. And that was also, So I worked at Kenner Fitzgerald, which was on the top floor of the world trade center, and I was in London at the time. So between Enron going bust and Canner losing their entire office on the top floor of the World Trade Center, they asked me to come back and take over the credit derivative business, which I knew nothing about. But I was always- Just explain what that is to me.

Because, again, I don't know. Fuck about shit. Credit derivatives are like options on bonds. So you know there's stocks and then there's stock options. And then there's corporate bonds, but there are no corporate bond options. There's derivatives of those things and derivative corporate default swaps. So you would buy insurance on the bond, the potential for that bond to default, which should, in theory, be very small.

But if it was a riskier bond, like a lower credit rating, the default swap protection would be higher. I see. And so that's what you did. I haven't thought about this in so long. Yeah, so we were trading that. But that was when that stuff just took off. And then during the financial crisis, that's all the stuff that blew up.

So we were trading that. Because a lot of defaults were happening? It wasn't that a lot of defaults were happening. It was that we hit a financial crisis. And all of a sudden, things looked a lot more risky than they had been. So the prices for those swaps went through the roof. This is super complex. But the price then of those swaps are you only have to put up a fraction of the money.

So when if the price of protection for a particular bond goes higher, you have to post margin to keep that to show that you can pay out if that thing loses. Right. Okay. And there were insurance companies that were selling default swaps on a making it of GE. They're never going defaults. I'm going to sell it for two basis points. That's 0.02% of the notional amount. Right. It's next to nothing. Yeah. And all of a sudden now the thing moves like 50 basis. points against them. They've got to post all this collateral because they were like, oh, insurance never going to happen. And now it is. And it was chaos. Yeah. Oh, man. And so, like, how much money were you making at that time? Millions. And that lasted two years. And then what happened?

When you make a lot of money, you spend a lot of money. Yeah. It's going to last forever. Right, right. I felt like a horse's ass. I'm like, oh, I'm an idiot. but I worked my way through it. So then where'd you go from there? So when that happened, like the whole world was upended, right? What year was this? 2008-ish. Okay.

Yeah. Everyone who was doing what I was doing was looking for a job. And they're all used to making a lot of money. Oh, yeah. And those days are over in a hurry. And I was super lucky. I got an interview with Credit Agricolt. trade just plain old corporate vanilla bonds, which was like more of a commoditized job.

Like the pay range was well known and established. No one was making millions. And yeah, I just had to reinvent myself again. Same thing when the Enron went bust. And they asked me to take over that credit derivative business. I figured it out and then worked my way up to like working at a bank and figured it out. And now I was like, damn it, right when it started to go well. It's clicking.

And I just got married, just bought a brand new apartment, and the wheels came off. Starting back over. Oh, so stressful. And then I went to credit agricultural, and they gave me a chance, and that worked out well. How long were you there? Five years. And then I moved to L.A. Started a financial technology firm with a friend of mine.

I knew it was a long shot that it might not work. But I needed a change. I had just gotten sober. and I was just like done with New York. We moved to L.A., sold our house, and I met up with a guy who would change my life, a guy named Jack McDowell from the Palisades Group. That was an asset management firm.

They managed money for big institutions. And over the course of a year, riding bikes together, I convinced him to let me run business development. And he was like, you know, you don't have any experience. I don't know. This isn't a great idea. And I said, I'll do it for free. See if it works.

And after a few weeks, it was obvious that it works. He gave me the chance and we, it was like the best thing that's ever happened to me. He was an awesome mentor. We did that for a couple of years. Grew the firm from like $2 billion to $5 billion, raised two or three discretionary funds, like internal hedge funds, basically, for lack of a better term, the finance people out there are going to be like, that's not a hedge fund, but it's close enough for our purpose. I don't know any different.

I'm not going to call bullshit. But then Jack was like such a, such a good guy. He's like, you're wasting your time here. You should raise money for other people for third parties. So go out on your own, basically. Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean, I didn't ever had the guts to work for myself. No health insurance.

I got four little kids. Yeah. And he was like, look, I'm going to pay X amount every month for the next year just to get out of here. Because he thought you were just wasting potential? Yes. Is that why? Yes. And he was like, I'll pay you as a consultant when I need to raise my next fund.

Do you know how many people that would never happen? You know, somebody like that, normally they'd want to keep an asset like you working for them. Because they're making more money because of you. It's very rare for somebody to say, listen, I believe in you so much, you need to get the fuck out of here and do this on your own. Yes. I mean, it was a combination of things. Yes. I would help this guy bury a dead body.

This is like my best friend. This is the guy that has had the biggest impact on my career. He's the best. But I also drove him crazy because I never had good processes. I was never organized. I'm not a super intellect. I don't, no one's looking for me to explain different investments

and provide analysis of investment opportunities. I just had relationships. But I always knew that. You're a people person. Yeah, I never tried to pretend. If they started to want, if they wanted to talk technical about a bond we were dealing or trading, I would simply get the analyst on the line.

I'm like, we pay an analyst to do this. Why do I need to know? And I'm the salesperson. So when I started, when, when Jack said to me, go leave, go do this on your own, one of the first things that I worked on was with David Sinclair in Boston. We raised some money for a pharmaceutical company called Life Bioscience as he was starting. And it was successful. And we were off to the races from there. But it was super nerve-wracking because when Jack said, you know, you're wasting your talent.

Go do this on your, oh, I was, I'm sorry, I lost my train. I thought I was telling you what I was, why I drove him crazy. Yeah, yeah. My process, he sucked. And this guy is super, super organized. He's got a spreadsheet for everything. Everything is on his calendar. Like, I wasn't even good using the calendar.

I wouldn't put meetings on. I'd forget. And he was the opposite. So he was like, it drives me crazy that your process. works for you because it shouldn't work. This is not how shit gets done. It goes against the grain for everything, but I can't deny you've done everything

I've asked you to do and then some. And he's like, I just can't believe it works. And it was, you know, I was, I would come and go as I pleased. Like I would, my, my process sucked. People are like, dude, how is this getting done? The guy's barely even in the office. Why did it work?

I've always thought that part being a good salesperson is being interesting and there's nothing interesting about a guy sitting in the office all day. So I would just explore every opportunity. I'd do all kinds of shit. Like whatever came up, I would, hey, I'm taking on, I'm going to, I'm going skiing for the next few days with a client. People feel like, this guy's always doing fun shit. Yeah. So you were likable. People believed in you. You earned trust. Yeah, but I also for through relationship. But I've also always got paid on production. If I didn't do the job that needed to be done, I didn't get paid well. Right. So when I was in an environment where my pay was commensurate with my performance,

I always did really well. But how I got there was not the prettiest picture. Like so I wasn't a good mentor to anyone. I couldn't tell someone how to do what I do. Yeah, right. Because I don't even know what I'm doing. Yeah. You know, it's like what we talked about earlier with running. I don't know. I'm just training hard. I'm just trusting that it will all pay off. Yeah. And when, so, that, I mean, it's a good segue. When did the training come in? Because, you know, for people that don't know, I mean, a lot of people probably heard of you, but you're like one of the fastest, like, if you want to say masters, we try to compare ourselves with everybody, right? So we don't want to, we don't want to be, you know, whatever, the smartest dumb guy. Yeah, that's it. But we want to

be compared to whoever. Yeah. But fact is, you are one of the fastest masters, like say, marathoners in the world. Yeah. When did that? training come in when I moved right before I moved to LA I was doing Iron Man Triathlon when I got sober in 2012-13 somewhere in that context 2010 because it was before we went to Ethiopia to adopt my daughter I I started riding my bike running again didn't know anything it didn't know what I was doing I knew how to swim if I fell off a boat but I wasn't gonna swim laps was the do you think the training was as replaced

placement for the drugs. Definitely. I mean, you needed something to focus on. Yeah, it probably still is. I don't profess to have all the answers. As a matter of fact, I always tell people, don't take my advice, don't do what I do. I'm not saying it's the healthiest thing,

but this is the only alternative I have found to, like, doing the wrong things. This is the only thing I've found the balance that works for me. So I was doing triathlon, did Iron Man in Hawaii three times. How did you do there? The first time I went there was like one of the most painful experience in my life. When I got onto the run, I was shit the bed and I just quit. I was just like, oh, man, I'm not going to have a good race.

I'm going to shut it down three miles into the run. Like I was a pro athlete or something in that I'm so ashamed of myself. Even when I think about it, now I get choked up because I'm like, what a fucking quitter. It was the most painful lesson. My friend Teddy Atlas talks about this all the time. It's always harder to quit. It's last forever. Because you've got to live with it.

It lasts forever. I mean, now, telling you, like, I'm getting choked up. I could get emotional thinking about it. I fucking quit like a dirty dog loser. There was no reason. Did you finish a race? No. I just was like, this is too hard.

I walked back to the start line. Like literally, as soon as I started walking backwards, I was like, oh, my God, what have I done? And my wife was there and I was like, basically in tears. I was like, I can't believe I did that. What the F? I can't believe I just didn't walk. And she was like, oh, well, go back next year and fix it.

And I did next year. I went back, I did 939, which for me was really good. Pretty good. Yeah. And then I did it one more time in 16, but I got super sick. I had pneumonia three weeks before and didn't train for two weeks, but I went there anyway, but again, I got on the run. It was dying and I just ended up walking.

I finished right before the sun went down, which was a moral victory. It did like 11 hours. But yeah, after 16, I just started focusing all my efforts on running and I would just run in the morning before work. That's where the 10 miles a day started. I'd ride my bike maybe like 50, 100 miles Saturday and Sunday. I see. And then you started to get fit.

Oh, yeah. Like, were you fast to start off with when you started to do it? No? I ran like, I mean, you know, I remember the first time I broke 1.30 and a half. Then I can remember 127, 124, 117, 117, 114, 117, 114, 111, and then most recently 110. But it was a steady progression. But it came with a very predictable workload. Like, hey, here's all the work I did.

and here's how the time's improved. Like you can see the correlation. Every single run I've ever done is on Strava, publicly available. Yeah. So it wasn't like some big spike. It was like, no, here's a correlation between my training workload and the performance. There were a few years where my marathon time would go from like 258 to 245 to 240 to 233. Those were big jumps.

But then once I got down into like 233, a couple years later I ran. and 228 and then I've run since a couple times 229, a few times 2.30. So I think I've like run 230 or better like seven times in the last three years. How, how can you go? I mean, how can I run 230? You just got to run a lot. Run a lot with purpose. I hired a coach Mario Fraoli, who is in Northern California and he put together. I got to 233 on my on my own, just. from running a ton and not really knowing what I was doing. And then I hired Mario and he got me from 233. The first race we did together, I went from 233 or 228.

Yeah, it was crazy. So fast. Even when it was happening, I was like, oh, my God, I'm running so fast. I can't believe this. What's a splits on that? 539. Yeah, that's, I mean, I've done a 10k at 542 and that hurt. Well, 228 was fast, but I felt like the,

half marathon i ran at 1 10 was more impressive like i ran 522 pace there over like 6 or 700 feet of elevation gain in nashville like god even when that one was happening i was like holy shit i'm on one like i am so strong i it was it was like magic what year was that i want to say two years ago okay 21 or 22 and what's your like average workload for miles so right now when i'm not in like training mode for a marathon 10 to 12 weeks before the marathon I'll start ramping up and in in training I'll be at like 85 to 100 for 10 to 12 weeks and typically I'll be 70 to 80 on a normal week like throughout the year so like the last two years in a row I ran over 4,000 miles and obviously it's 3,650 miles would be 10 a day right right so yeah and then what pace are like most of those training

runs at do you push or comfortable or Or if I'm not in training and I feel good, I'll run fast. If I don't feel good, then, you know, I'll typically like 7.30, 7 to 7.30 would be the normal. Like today's run would be a good... Today's run was hard, man. I was, holy shit, this guy's in shape. It was hard. I'm like, that was the hardest run I've done in a while. Just because of all the climbing and the steadiness and all the change in undulations. And I just don't do that kind of climbing anymore since I left L.A.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. You ran, I thought you ran awesome. It was a great day to run in Eugene. Oh, the weather was perfect. Yeah, yeah. But that hill was no joke, man. I was shocked at how hard it was. I didn't expect to run like that. You were in freaking good shape, man. There aren't a lot of people that would be able to do that run with us today, I promise. Well, I was nervous. I was like, I was, you know, I was nervous to run with you just because, like, I know how good you are. And I'm like, oh my God, I can't embarrass myself. Oh, I was worried about embarrassing myself. When you were running up the hill, I'm like, Jesus Christ,

I'm going to have to like, this is getting hard. Yeah, yeah. I loved it though. I mean, four miles uphill, it's, I just love, I'm not the fastest on flat. You know what I mean? But, you know, running the mountains every day, just like anything, you're going to get better at it. Yep.

I mean, so it's just after doing it for 30 years, you should be decent. You had really good technical skills on the, the sense. I was like, damn, he's, I'm going to get dropped. But running downhill is dangerous. Like I said, if it's a race, I'll risk it all. But in training, I know, yeah. I'll see it to bottom. Wow, we had, it was great. Then they ended up a Haywardessweet. But, yeah, that was cool. So I mentioned, or I mean, you mentioned earlier, the Rock reached out to you. I wanted to hear that story. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's so funny. Like, as this stuff has kind of gained more attention, And it's interesting to see in your friend groups, friends groups, like who leans into the

friendship and who kind of distanced themselves. I have some friends that have become like Uber famous and I hear from them less. But then I get a message from someone like the rock and I'm like, you know, it's like, it can hurt your feelings when you're like, oh, man, I never hear from so-and-so anymore. It's like too big for me. Like I feel like it's all about me. You don't think about put yourself in their shoes of like, oh, they must be super busy with things. So one day I noticed that the rock was following me on Instagram and I'm like, that can't be

the real rock. I mean, it's like, and I look 400 million followers or something. I'm like, holy shit. So I sent him a DM. I said, hey, thanks for following. Man. I loved your interview on Joe Rogan show. Yeah. And he immediately hit me back with a voice memo like, hey, brother, rock. I hope he doesn't even mind me sharing this. I mean it as a compliment, but I never posted the voice memo or anything. I wouldn't share that. But it was like, yo, it's the rock. What's up? Love your content. I get super inspired when I go on your page and I'm going to go run through a brick wall now and hit the gym. Yeah. You inspired me. And I'm like, I was speechless. I'm like, I was like, show, get the kids down here. It was like the proudest dad moment because my kids watch all those movies Jumanji.

They like, my kids one time said to me, I forget who I told them that I met. Well, my jelly roll is really close with my friend with my kids. So they know some like Uber famous people. But I was like, get the kids down here. Guess who left me a message? And they're like, who? And then my daughter is like, The Rock. And I'm like, yes.

And she was like, you could see her face just like light up. She was like, The Rock knows my dad. Yeah, that's great. It was like my proudest dad moment. I mean, one of the most famous people in the world, really, to rock. And I've spoken to him a few times because when I was in LA with jelly roll, we were all going to get together for dinner.

And then his kids got sick. And we didn't end up having anybody. He was like, I'll hit you when I get to Nashville the next time. But it was just unbelievable. You wouldn't even think to call. I was like, I wonder how he came across to you. Do you know? I have no idea.

He just, he said he saw my content on Instagram and went on my, page and then like to and followed me yeah and he doesn't i mean he follows less than a thousand people last time i checked so it's not like he's out there just like following people like crazy surfing yeah looking for people to follow that's pretty cool but it's cool that he recognizes that he has a platform that's big enough that and then he's like commented on a few posts which obviously then they they light up right oh yeah holy shit dude the rock comments on your post that because then i'm like he did yeah that's incredible well i wonder if uh Because I know he's a fight fan.

I wonder, you know, you said that mentioned the podcast with Teddy. Yeah. How'd that start? And what's going on there? Yeah. My friend Rob Moore, who's like one of my closest allies in the world. Him and I were in L.A., coincidentally at the same time, he was doing PR, and he was leaving his job at Edelman, a big PR, you know, corporate gig.

And I was leaving the Palisades group and going to do my own thing right at the same time. And I had introduced Rob to some fighters. in LA, specifically Mike Lee, who was a super middleweight world champion. And he actually fought Caleb Plants, who was also from Nashville at one point. And that was his first loss. But I said to Rob, you should do PR for Mike and come up with a different structure instead of charging like a huge upfront fee like a retainer that PR usually charges. I said charge him like a small retainer and a performance fee.

And long story short, he did it. And then through Mike Lee, Teddy got connected with, Rob got connected with Teddy. And Teddy had been slowly being pushed out at ESPN because he was always talking about telling the truth about boxing and pointing out like different bad decisions, bad judging. And the promoter who was working with ESPN, I think didn't like it. And they were basically using Teddy much less on ESPN. And Rob was like a huge advocate of podcasts way back in the days. He's like, these podcasts are the future.

That's why I called Rob the Podfather. And Rob got connected with Teddy and was helping him with some management and PR stuff and said, why don't you start your own podcast? You don't need anyone else's platform. You can build your own. And then through that, he connected me with Teddy and said, do you want to do this with Teddy Atlas? I was like, yeah. Does he want to do it with me?

Yeah. And I was just a fight fan. So on the podcast, I kind of represent the fan's point of view. like you know no one's tuning in to hear my analysis of a fight right i just present set the fight up hey here's what i saw look like this guy was like uh you know on the gas all night he did this did that what'd you think that's what people really want to know and then he'll break down the fight and we'll go back and forth yeah that's interesting because that is a perfect perspective because most fight fans don't know what the fuck they're looking at no of course not you know so it does take

an expert to to break it down oh it really does because a lot of times they'll be like oh man i look like this guy was a bad decision. He's like, no, no, it was the right decision a lot of the times. And then he'll explain, here's what's happened. And then from a fan's perspective, I'll ask the question that I think fans want to hear. How many robberies are there in boxing? No, dirtiest sport on earth. Yeah.

Most corrupt sport ever known to man. Is that always going to be the case? Until they get, Teddy's pushing or we're pushing for a national commission to have someone oversee it like they do every other sport in the world. Mm-hmm. You know, it's just so many different factions within the sport. There's different governing bodies. There's different sanctioning bodies, different belts, different sanctioning fees.

You know, if you want to be ranked by the WBC, WBA, WBO, like, you've got to pay them. Fees. If you're the champ, they get a percentage X percent of the fight purse. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah. So what does Teddy think about, like, the YouTubers boxing, like Jake Paul? and Logan Paul fighting Floyd and Teddy's like when it comes to that kind of stuff he's the most rational person in the world he's like listen if they take it seriously at the end of the day this is

like entertainment and he's like you know he likes the pauls we had Jake Paul on the podcast he's a nice guy that was another one where my kids were like dad you're talking to Jake Paul I was telling Jake I go my I asked my kids would they rather throw a passes with Tom Brady or talk to Jake Paul in the podcast and they chose you so I go I'd be doing a disservice as a dad if I didn't let them come in here guys come on quick so they came onto the podcast and they were like they were literally just standing there like starstruck like I go guys don't freeze up on me now come on yeah what do you want to say hi what what did was Jake pretty good yeah he was cool they're very cool he's a humble cool guy he's playing a role he's playing a character and at the end of the day it's entertainment half the people

call buy the fight to see him win the other by half by to see him lose but they're all buying yeah I mean that's you know that's kind of Colby's philosophy yeah that's right he's That's old Muhammad Ali quote. Half the people come to say me lose. Half the people come to see me win, but they're all buying a ticket. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Colby's might be 955. 95% wanting to see him lose, but they're all watching. The thing about Colby, I give him credit for being able to stay in that character for a long time. And shame on the simpletons who can't see that that's a character, that he's playing a role, like as if it's wrestling, but with real fighting. And I can appreciate it. I mean, look, sometimes yeah i'm like dude what are you talking about but when you realize like chel sun and he's playing a role he's never lost the fight yeah everything's a robbery yeah i know he's yeah he's still he's never lost around no jail oh chale's the best but but chale is like a mentor to colby so right i give them but chel's been on the show before and i said dude credit for being able to stay in that character it's hard to be disliked and he's like i'm glad you said that because yeah you're right it is hard at times yeah

Yeah. But no, I like them. I appreciate everyone's, like, station in life. Like, we're all trying to do the best we can. So I think it's so easy to cast dispersions on other people and be like, fuck this guy. This guy's an asshole. This guy's an idiot.

But if you take a step back and take a deep breath, calm down, and recognize we're all trying to do the same thing. Most people are good people. Most people just want the best for themselves and their families. Obviously, there's some bad people out there. but you know sometimes you got to take things with a grain of salt and like give people a break and listen i'm not perfect i i i can be harsh on others as well but at the end of the day if and when you can take a step back you realize we're all in this together even with this divisive bullshit going on

at the election like we're all from the same country right shit goes down it's like it's like being in a neighborhood where you're fighting with the neighborhood kids but if kids from another neighborhood come over here guys it's go time we're all in this together let's Go get your hockey sticks, get your bats. They're coming. I wish, I mean, yeah, that is the mindset. I wish everybody understood that. No, I know.

You know, because it's like we do kind of this tribe mentality, and I think it hurts us for sure. But the key is do the best thing that you can, which is control yourself. Speak the truth. Don't go along with the bullshit narrative because it's convenient. Tell the truth.

There's a lot of truths that aren't spoken right now because people are afraid to get labeled one side or the other and it's crazy. Like, you know, we don't have to agree on everything, but we can still respect each other. I agree to disagree on a lot of things with my wife. Yeah, oh, definitely. Yeah, I understand that.

I do, you know, in regard to the Paul brothers, too, what I appreciate is how hard they fucking train. They train. Those kids train and they're athletes. Yeah. You know, it's not like they're just some YouTube, maybe they were YouTube stars, but they're not, nobody stays the same.

I mean, you're not the same as you were. I don't even recognize myself. Yeah, I mean, so can we acknowledge that? Yeah. These kids work their asses off and have made a bunch of money. Oh, I love it. I love watching those fights. I tune into every single one.

Actually, I went to when Jake Paul fought, who was the UFC fighter, he fought? Tyrone Woodley. Tyrone Woodley. The first one, I went there with Dustin Porrier in Cleveland. And, dude, talk about chaos. We were sitting in like, I don't know, a fourth or fifth row. There was literally no security there.

So Dustin comes in. The crowd goes mental. But there's no one like to tell people to get to their seats. So we're sitting there. And all of a sudden there's like a swarm of people like to the point where I'm like, dude, this is getting dangerous. Someone's going to get not fall down and get stampeded. And then they came out and they said to Dustin, the, you know, management people were like,

hey, Dustin, Tyron wants to see it in the locker room. And he's like, oh, Ken, come on. And they were like, no, no, just you, Dustin. He's like, yeah, forget it. Then we're not coming. He's like, okay, Ken can come to him. I'm like, I'm like the 52-year-old little brother. Yeah, was that before the fight?

Yeah. So we went in both locker rooms before the fight. It was just a huge job. I'm a super fan, man. Oh, yeah, me too. I love this shit. Dude. But I'll tell you, my youngest son is a jiu-jitsu fighter and wrestles.

He's eight, and he's good. And I don't know if Teddy or someone mentioned to Dana. that he's into it. So I saw Dana at the Nashville show and we were sitting Caged side. I don't even know how we got into the VIP section, but I was chit-chat with Dana. And he's like,

yo, I heard your son is really into this. Like, oh, he's convinced he's going to fight in the UFC. He's like, you want to bring him next week to Boston? I was like, hell yes. He's eight. He's never been to any kind, anything like this. Dude, I can't even, I'm, again, I could get an emotional thing about this.

Dana, connect, says, connect with my PR person, call this person. And I know them from booking guests with them, you know, their PR rep. And they're like, yeah, you're all set. You got tickets. And Dana said, come sit with me at the fight. So I'm like, okay.

Maybe we just, maybe we're just, I've seen him give decent seats to people. Yeah. I've seen him have people sitting on the cage, like literally touching it. So we get there. I mean, my son fly up Saturday morning. He's got a Celtics jersey on it. When we bought the Celtics jersey, I said, buddy, you want, um, Jason Tatum. Who do you want?

He's like, I don't really want anyone else's name on it. Can I get my own? name on the shirt. So he's got his own name on the shirt. He's got a lepricon hat. He's got his Eric Jordan Celtic colors on. And he's on top of the world where it was it was magical to me. Because I've done cool stuff like this. But to be there with my little boy, it was like, the whole thing was so emotional. So we get there. They walk us, we check into the VIP walking with Peter Welch, who owns a boxing gym in Boston. And he recognizes me. I've never met him. But he watches the show. And, you know, it's always, you know how it's.

is when someone recognized you like you know who i am yeah god inside i'm like oh my god this is great so people are saying hello and mickey ward's there who i know from we work together and they're getting a lot of attention my son seeing them seeing these people that appear to be famous coming to talk to me yeah at one point he says to me dad like he's telling me a secret dad i think you're famous i was like no no buddy i just know some of these people so anyway they walk us out to the seats where we're in the front row like where arms length from rogan in the cruise or rogan comes over that's where trump usually sits like you be sitting by oh and kid rock where six rows in front of the celtics coach oh man and it gets better i mean we're sitting we're and of course anytime i go to a boxing or a

ufc card i'm the first person in the door i want to see every single fight i love it all so we're sitting there he's in the vi he's eating candies and we keep going to the restaurant he's getting cake and i'm just like have whatever you want right So in between the main and the co-main, Dana comes over and goes, Cameron, come with me. Ken, give me a phone. Open it. Like, I handed my phone with the camera on. He takes my son, brings him over to Bruce Buffer.

Buffer's holding his hand up, pointing at him like this. I'll show you the pictures after. Takes him over to Rogan and D.C. While they're doing the broadcast, has them turn around and take a picture with him. I'm not there, thank God, because I would have been like, no, don't interrupt. So then he goes, Cameron, come on. get up there, get in the octagon. And Cameron's looking at me, look at me.

I'm like, get in there. So he comes out and he says to Dana, hey, Dana, next time you see me in that octagon, I'm not going to have my shoes on. And I was like, oh, my God, we might have one. We might have one. He's got the right mindset for it. Yeah. So after all that, he's, my son looks at me, he goes, dad, what about Missoula, the Celtics?

He loves the Celtics. And I go, hey, Dana, can you introduce him to Missoula? He's like, oh, yeah, Joe, get down. It practically puts the guy in a headlock. I was like, take a picture with the kid. And Joe Missoula couldn't have been nicer. It was just, it was one of the best nights in my life. That's incredible, incredible, too, because it was like, you know,

no matter what we've had for blessings or opportunities, it pale, you know, we've been around for 50-some years, right? So, yeah, it feels good. It's been a long grind. But to be able to share special things like that with your kids, that they could build on that, they're young. Yeah. So who knows how that's going to affect the trajectory of his life?

You know? And so when we get those opportunities to expose our kids to this whatever, this other lifestyle or world, you don't know what kind of effect that's going to have. That's what's powerful to me. That's exactly right. When I was a kid, I didn't have an example of or access to athletes to be like, that's a reality for a lot of people. Like that guy is doing it. That's another person. Like you can do that. That person did it. I didn't have that either. You can do it. But even with the stuff I've done with running, it's that they can see your kids. can see like what's achievable if you just follow your own passion and believe in yourself. I didn't I didn't have a goal of being recognized as a runner.

It seems crazy that it's even happening. It was just something I was doing. It's like you are hunting and all of a sudden people like, damn, this guy's a good hunter. And all of a sudden you kind of adapt to the new role of being like, I don't even know if you call yourself a celebrity hunter, but it's like you're probably the most famous bow hunter. I don't know anything about hunting. But when someone talks about bow hunting, they mention your name. And that's crazy, right?

Yeah, it is. It's kind of obviously not to the same extent, but it's been like that with running, where it's like most of the people have been super supportive, but I see some people in the running community, I feel like they don't like welcome me there because I don't look like a traditional runner. I didn't take the running path of like running in high school

and college. So it's been an eye open experience. But like I said, it's an example to my children. Like you can have anything you want. Yeah. It doesn't have to be one of my oldest sons into video editing and he's like, he for a long time, he loved dude perfect. Now he's outgrown or he's going to kill me for even mentioning it. But I'm like, dude, figure out what your thing is.

It doesn't have to be trick shots. It could be making videos about sneakers. He loves sneakers, because I love sneakers. He's like, I'm going to make something about sneakers. I said, if you make really good videos, I'll buy you those Apple goggle things. I said, I'll get you whatever you want. I always tell my kids, you know what you can have in this house if you do all the right things. anything you want. And they're like, what about a trip to Disney? I said, I'll tell you what, if everyone gets straight A's and we don't have any BS and no one has fighting with each other or something, we'll go to Disney. And the next day, someone will be, the two of the kids will be in a fist fight and I'll be like, that's why you're not going to Disney. We need some consistency.

Remind me, speaking of shoes, remind me before I take you back that you need some speed land size 10. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. So remind me of that. I don't want to forget. But yeah, I mean, I totally get what you're saying. And I, two when I've been at the fights, you probably felt like, what, how am I right here? Yeah. I feel like that one. And I'm also super fan. So I get everything you just said about being the first one in.

Yeah. I live for those fights. But I'm always sitting right there going, Dana's going to come over here and say, what, what are you doing up here? Get back. Get up there. Get up there. Right.

Because it's like, there's no way this is going to last. That's right. And it keeps exactly how I feel. Yeah. And it's like I definitely don't feel like I belong there. But that's, that's the beauty. Right is that I recognize that like kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of Kindred spirit is that it's so appreciated like the people that was sitting next to me to

Influents two Influents two female influencers sat right next to us. They came for the main event. I was so angry. Yeah. And they were like I was like oh what do you guys do they're like ah social media and I'm like what do you mean social media? The girl goes hot chicks on social media hot chicks on Instagram and then I looked her up right in front of her. I'm like 12 million followers. I'm like. like okay that's why they're there. Well and yeah so the cameras are on them. Yeah, they add like a little bit of you know beauty to the fight.

You know what's crazy? We were right in front of the Nelk boys like all Tena's buddies from Happy Dad and they sponsor O'Malley. Right. When O'Malley won, I'm not exaggerating here. It was like a tidal wave of booze flying up in the air. People coming over the seats behind us like I'm not shitting you. I grabbed the camera by the back of the back of the. his basketball jersey and his t-shirt with one hand and ripped him out of there as people like

all the chairs and everything collapsed into front of us like security as it was happening in slow motion i see security scrambling and as i'm ripping them out of there the people they're like grabbing me out they're like who you saved them they were about to like they went crazy they were mad no they were so happy oh happy yeah bear went flying they come flying all the top and all the chairs collapsed and they were like and they all just stormed like the like the edge of the cage It was momentarily scary. And then I was like, all right, Kim, you had enough? He's like, yeah, I'm ready.

Was that his last fight against Aldo? Or not Aldo. Aljo. Aljo, yeah, sorry. Yeah, no, when he won the belt. Yeah. Yeah, I bet that was, I mean, he does have some super fans, but the, yeah, being sponsored by the Nuff Boys. But he jumped over the cage, started drinking a happy dad seltzer.

It was wild. I got crazy videos on my phone. No, those guys are, they're ballworm. too. They're making so much money. It's so crazy. Yeah. But you love to say, I like seeing that stuff, but I know it irks some people because they want that. And I get it. I get that you want that, but you shouldn't have ill will towards someone else for like, if nothing else, pay even the way they're showing you what you can do. Yeah. You can do this. Yeah. How could those those kids do it and you can't? That's it. You know what I mean? That's it. To be honest with you, I had only in the last like

year, even know who they were. Yeah, me neither. I mean, I mean, But I got to hand to Dana for being kind of a visionary on, you know, because he's kicked out some like MMA media. Like, you know, figures have been there for years. Yep. They're not in there, but these social media kids are because that's how they're marketing UFC now. You're exactly right. He's a visionary. He recognizes that the next group of fans are younger kids and who's in touch with those younger

kids. These knellke boys are like the pied piper of this like next crop of fans. Or even the girl sitting there. They were there. Oh yeah. I mean that's just to elevate the UFC brand in a different audience. That's exactly right. Yeah. I mean it's pretty impressive how how he's built UFC to what it is. It's unbelievable. And I love that he's not a he's a non-apologetic about everything. He's like this is what it is deal with it. Yeah. Makes no makes no apologies. Lives his truth. Everyone should celebrate that, but like, I feel like there's a fraction of society that like doesn't like that kind of masculinity. Right. And it's like, dude, you clearly don't like that because you're threatened by strong men. Regardless of their race or orientation, it's just like

people are just out there making it happen. Yeah. Company was worth $4 million or $2 million, whatever it was. Now it's $4 billion. Now it's like $9 billion. with the IPO they did with TKO. Incredible. And now that they've joined forces with the WWE under William Morris Endeavor, what Ari Emanuel was like purchased and both rolled them into one and then did an IPO, TKO of the two sports,

the two franchises basically is masterful. And then you see Chandler cut a promo at the WWE. I know, I know. It's masterful like marketing. Yeah, it's they've definitely got the blueprint. for how it should be done at that level. I mean, not many businesses are at that level to be that creative or whatever,

but they are and they're killing it. I love seeing it. Me too. Dana and I think of Dana and Joe Rogan is very similar guys. They're like, they'll do anything for their friends. And they're like never lose sight of like where they came from or who they are. Yeah.

And a funny story, Joe. I met Joe when David Sinclair did his podcast and then I went to Vegas for work, one weekend when there was a UFC show. And I was texting with Joe and he got me tickets and then I met him for lunch, but I was away from my wife. How did you text with Joe? How'd that come up?

Also, when I went to his studio with Rob Moore, who was representing David Sinclair, who made the introduction for David Sinclair to get on Joe Rogan's podcast the first time, we went to the studio and I met Joe. And then we just kind of were somewhat friendly. I wouldn't say we like hit it off or we were best boys. We were just, we were friendly. and he had said once maybe hit me if you're coming to a UFC show. So I was in Vegas doing work by myself.

I'm like, hey, I'm going to be in Vegas. I would love to come to the UFC. And then I met him and Ian Edwards for lunch one day. That's so embarrassing. I was there by myself and in a moment of weakness got high during the day. It was like probably the last time I ever took pain pills. And I don't even know if he would know, but I was like after the fact I was like, oh my God, I'm so embarrassed.

he probably thinks I'm a spaz, like, just hyped up. And I've never even told him that. So if he's listening, he can, uh, sorry, sorry if I seemed crazy. Oh, but I think when you, the first step to like addressing and in dealing with your issues is acknowledging them. And, you know, if I made anyone uncomfortable in my, uh, whacked out stupor, my apologies. Yeah. But, uh, he probably, he may not even annoy. maybe just been like, what a fucking weird guy?

I don't know. I mean, yeah, I guess we'll find out if he listens. I've seen him a few times since he's always super friendly. Really? Oh, dude, he couldn't be nicer. Yeah. I saw him when I was with my son. I saw him at the, once in Vegas, I went with, I went to his show with Dave Chappelle

with my friend Ben Anderson, who was a war correspondent at Vice, and he's buddies with Chappelle. So we were in the green room and went backstage and saw Joe back there and just exchange pleasantries, but yeah, I'm sure, you know, hey, everybody, not everybody's perfect, you know what I mean, or nobody's perfect. So we've all had our ups and downs. I'm sure he just writes in office, maybe probably didn't even notice. But I probably didn't, but I noticed in the way, you know, when I do it, feel like it's important to acknowledge the, acknowledge and accept your responsibility. I understand. Yeah, our, you know, subconscious or our thoughts of ourselves are

usually worse than everybody else's for sure that's right i tell people that too when they get when people get nervous about events or like we were talking about or is nervous about coming on a podcast our imagination is so much more creative than reality there's no limit to what you can imagine that could go wrong right but the reality is no you've been here before you've done this before like you know who you are people are like unless you're dropping some crazy ass bomb on people yeah it is what it is What's the worst they could say? Is that guy's boring or that guy's full of shit? Like of all the things that people have said about me in the past,

that's not even scratching the surface of things that offend me. What I always say is I've been called worse by better. Yes. So it's like until you get like maybe somebody, I don't know, that you really respect saying something about you, it's probably going to be okay. Yeah. God, I was, oh yeah.

So I was thinking like in regard, what about UFC judging? Because we mentioned boxing judging and being, that sport being corrupt. Did you watch the last card, last UFC card? Yeah. Did you watch McKinsey Dern? Yes.

I don't remember that one being... Because people are saying she got robbed. She got hurt. I know that. I think that anytime you have discretion, like gymnastics, figure skating, you're going to have some people's interpretation just differ. The problem is when you have like someone who you think clearly won and they get, and the judge says they lost every round.

Yeah. and they lost 30, 27, you're like, dude, what? Occasionally. But I also almost wonder, technically I think the sanction embody the state athletic commissions assign the judges. I don't think the organization has anything to do with it because I've seen Dana be frustrated by the judging. I almost wonder if sometimes the judges feel like they want to give the decision that the

promoter wants to see because ultimately they want to keep working. And I think sometimes they get it wrong. but I think that in the UFC, it's far, far less prominent than it is in boxing. Boxing is blatant. Like if you don't do what we need done, you'll never work with us again. While they might not be able to assign judges, the promoters can certainly decay judges and referees. Yeah, I mean, that's what, there's a lot of theories about like the stars, if it's not a knockout, the stars are going to win. Yeah.

Oh, in boxing? Oh, night. Even in UFC. Well, I feel like in the UFC, there's like a legitimate. Everyone has a legitimate chance. The lines, the odds are typically like, I mean, if you have someone who's a three to one favorite on the main card, that's extreme. Yeah. In boxing, it's very rare that the guy's not like a five to 10 to one favorite in most of the main events.

90%. Once in a blue moon, you'll get like Fury and Usik, where you're like, oh shit, this is the one. Or Bevo better B.F. and you're like, okay, this is what the fans want. But both guys know they're undefeated. Like they've got to be paid a lot. That's why having the Saudi Turkey al-Shik come in and have a blank checkbook, he can put on all these fights.

So he looks like the hero, but a promoter has to make money. They have to guarantee the fighters are pursed and they have to go and recoup it. That's why Dana describes it perfectly. It's like every boxing show is promoted like a going out of business sale. everything is what's the shittiest that we what's what's the worst we can get away with without looking completely crazy right and then you go to the ufc and you're like there's fucking spaceships in there and light shows that like haven't even been made available to any other venue it's yeah it's madness it's so the thing flows it's like yeah i don't want to sound like

i'm just blowing smoke up dana's ass but when someone's doing something great it's like it's amazing production how they have that orchestrated he's the uh he's the Cam Haynes of hunting. He's the promoter version of fighting. Yeah. You and Dana. Right. Yeah, I got a lot of respect for that business he's built. But so what are your thoughts on Fury and Inganu on that fight? Oh, I think that, I think that Fury clearly won the fight, but I don't think myself included anyone expected to see Inganu knock him down and be around for the whole fight. Like that was as good as a win as you're going to get for me. And that's not a knock.

I love Francis. I know him very well. And his manager is Markell Martin is a super, super kind person and a good guy. And actually, he got a lot of hate from Dana. Yeah. He got a lot of hate. He used to work at the U.S. Francis?

No. Well, Francis and his manager. And yeah, that's their beef. But I would tell you, I like Markell Martin. I like, I like Dana. But Markel is a nice guy, in my opinion. They have the differences. that's between them.

But Francis and Markell showed a lot of conviction in Francis's ability to make money. They did everything they said they were going to do and now they can write their own ticket. And if you, I think Francis and Ghana would be the most, if you give that guy two or three hours to tell his story, because that's how long it takes because I've heard it. It is fucking insane. From where he came from. It is, it is insane. I think he tried to get from, I want to say Morocco into international.

waters off Spain and rescued by the Red Cross probably like seven times. Dude, he doesn't know how to swim. Can you imagine getting into a rough sea in a rubber raft made out of tire inner tubes with like seven to 10 other African immigrants trying to get out of there? He said at one point when they made their last attempt, they were down trying to get into the water on a rocky outcropping and the waves are crashing down. and one of the immigrants that was trying to get over, one of the African guys, an older guy, was panicking and didn't want to get on the boat.

Francis said, I picked up the board and I told him, get in that fucking boat. And like the guy got in and they got out in the Red Cross, got them. But even then he went to a detention center in Spain. Then he got to go to France and lived in a parking garage for like however long, sleeping in the stairwell and boxing and training, boxing initially. And then into MMA, what? A wild story and just a super nice guy.

Crazy. I mean, and you know, you hear stories like that and then you hear people complaining about life here and in our country. And you're like, you're like, wow. What are you talking about? Because that is just a story of, I mean, not only survival, but doing whatever it takes to chase it, not even chase a dream. Just live a comfortable life. Just to like get out of the sand mines. Yeah. Working in a sand mine. Like I don't know if they were mining for gold or what, but like incredibly hard work. Yeah. And now to be able to make, did he make 30 million on that fight? I don't know what the number was, but I'm sure it was at least, at least that. Yeah. And he got criticized heavily for that decision to leave as a UFC champion, you know, drop the bag. That was pretty a famous line. But, you know, so nobody really gave him a chance to do what he did in boxing. I thought he was going to get blown right out of the ring.

Did you? Oh, I thought he was going to get blasted. Because Fury is so good. And big. You know how hard it is to sit in the pocket like that and stand right in front of a guy who chucking punches at you like that and to be smooth in the pocket? I think that's the hardest thing about boxing

that a lot of people who have in box don't understand to stand right in front of someone in punching distance with your hands up, bobbing and weaving and throwing punches and dodging the punches coming back at you and never taking your eyes off. Go and stand in front of someone clowning around. I guarantee you your first instinct when they throw punches is to look down and cover your head.

Yeah. If you take your eyes off the opponent, you're going to sleep. Right. So to be able to keep looking at him while you're getting cracked with good shots, it takes conviction and confidence and incredible athleticism. So to see him do what he did was just, man, it was like such watching someone's dreams come true. Yeah, it was incredible. I love to see it.

Yeah. Because you know that was, you know, that was the goal the whole time is to get that big paycheck. Yeah, I don't know. What an incredible story. But to your point also that when you said to stand there and not cover up or whatever, it makes me think there was a McGregor fight. It might have been Eddie Alvarez where Alvarez threw a punch. And I think it just barely hit McGregor's nose and then didn't blink, didn't do anything,

came right back probably with his left. And I mean, just that distance management and just knowing and then not flinching. Like when a punch coming at you and to not flinch, take your eye off the target and then react, Yeah. Incredible. I think slipping punches in the pocket is the hardest thing about boxing to be able to sit there and they're throwing punches at you and you're just moving your head like a fraction of an inch left and right slip into the sides of the punches as they're grazing off your face is crazy because if you miscalculate that you're getting hit right in the mush by someone who can crack. Who's the best you've seen? I mean, Mayweather was obviously a great defensive fighter, but I've seen Canello with that head movement pretty impressive. Who do you think? You follow boxing. I think that. I think that. I think that. I think that. I think that. I think that. I think that. I think. I think. I think. Terrence Crawford is the best pure boxer in the sport. He can change lefty, south park, Orthodox, to back a forth, back and forth and be just as good either way. He's been on our podcast before too,

and he's like talked about training to be able to fight from both positions and his trainer telling him, don't do that anymore when he was in the amateurs. And he just started knocking guys out from both stances. And it was like, all right, just do what you want to do. But Teddy would always say that Terrence Crawford, He does things that most people can't do. He, like, makes it up as he's going.

Sometimes it doesn't even look like he's doing things that he's never really trained. It's like so, he's so instinctive. He's like a great musician, just like making up the notes as he goes, how Teddy would describe it. And I think Canello's great too, but I think that Terrence Crawford is the best pound for pound box. I don't think anyone's as good.

He's destroyed everybody. And then when they said he was going to have a tough fight with Errol Spence, I mean, he almost killed him. It was. Is he undefeated? Is he just beating? Or has he lost? No.

Okay. There's one like multiple divisions. You can check me out or maybe four different weight divisions. How old is he now? I want to see he's like in his mid to late 30s. I don't think he has a lot of prime years left. The thing is when the I think that when you have fighters like that, like Roy Jones, Terrence Crawford, when they're so good and rely so much on athleticism, they get old

overnight. The minute you lose that fast twitch, that reaction time, like you saw it happen in real time. with Roy Jones. Once he got knocked out, it was over. He got knocked out multiple times. And time just catches up to them. They're so fast. They're so good. There is, I'm trying to think who was like that in like Frankie Edgar in the UFC. He was so good. And then once he, once as he started to age and lost that like quick reaction. I mean, he's still unbelievable. But the last knockout that he suffered was just vicious. Yeah. And that I think has a lot to do with aging in that athleticism that comes that that elite athletes have that fast twitch and that's like the first thing

to go with aging that's just my opinion i hope i haven't offended him no i like frankie he's a nice guy oh i mean i got so much respect for anybody who gets that octagon oh my god that's a crazy sport as fans of course we're going to have opinions and yeah sometimes we don't know what the hell we're talking about you you probably do just because you've been around the sport or combat sports for so long um but you know who's who's who's has changed on a dime, not really from a punch, but from a kick is Kamara Usman's. Oh, yeah.

That's a perfect example. I mean, he was, you know, on top of the world, he was talking about boxing Canelo. Yeah. Do you remember that? Well, he's the golden goose. Everybody wants the boxing. Yeah, yeah, it's so much money.

But, I mean, at that time, he was talking about multiple weight divisions, boxing Canelo, and then took that head kick from Leon. And it was, he was never the same. sense. Yep. Crazy. Yeah. It's, dude, it happens when Izzy lost to Sean Strickland, I'm like, dude, no one can beat this guy. When he beat Alex Perea and avenge that loss, I'm like, dude, he's on another level. And then that performance against Strickland, unless something was wrong with them, it wasn't, it was not a good performance whatsoever. I'm happy for Sean Strickland, but I love his,

he's been on the show a couple times and he's a really nice guy. But talking about those sports can be difficult because so many of the guys like you get to know them and you like them. It's like twofold. It's like I hate to see any of them lose the ones that you start to know and like. And you know, you're friends with some of these guys. But seeing your friends lose is terribly difficult. And then being honest and if you have to be critical while still being respectful, it's hard.

I always am sensitive to not try to offend anyone but tell the truth. Like, yeah, he got smashed, you know, or so and so, you know. It doesn't look good for him going forward. And it's like, you know, you hate to say it, but it's the truth. It's a fine line. Yeah, no, I understand. I mean, it's, yeah, I mean, every time when Colby fights and I'm there, I'm freaking a nervous wreck.

Exactly. You know, I want him to, I want that belt to come back to Oregon so bad. And I thought that Leon was just going to be the, I thought it was a perfect matchup because Colby so wrestling heavy, just one of the best wrestlers. Leon, that's not really his game. He's a striker. And I thought, okay, it's going to happen. So it was like, you know, it hurt that he lost that fight.

It hurt me. I can't imagine what the fighters are, you know, that's their whole life. I know exactly what you mean. It's, oh, man, what a heart. It can be a heartbreaking. It can be life changing. It can be the most incredible sport, but man, brutal. Yep.

One of the things that I wanted to ask a different subject is, you know, as I've got more and more competitive in the run. and had the like benefit of working with some really great brands and it's been incredible. How was the experience for you like to kind of come up the way you came up? You're working for the city and now all of a sudden you've got like gym companies building custom weights for you and like, you know, your own kind of a power line. Like was there a first deal that you did that you were like, holy shit, this guy wants to align their brand with me?

Do you remember if there was one? And do you still get that feeling when people? want to do things like this like build you a custom weight set because it's it's awesome in here yeah thank you uh no i i i expect it to all go away i mean i i mean just like getting kicked out of the ufc like why are you up here i expect all this to go away and somebody will be like get back to your shitty life that you deserve because you don't deserve this and i'd be like you're right you got me so that's what i expect so yeah the the first i i remember i signed with the camo company um I think it was real tree, and they're just, they make a cameo pattern.

And I think the deal was five years, 125,000. So 25,000 a year. And to me, I was like, this is insane. I would have done it for the clothes. Yeah, I would have done it for nothing. Yeah. It's like, and so to say I had, oh, I had a six-figure contract, right? And even though it was over five years, that was like, that seemed unreal.

Yeah. And it still seems unreal. So all this, yeah, it just doesn't seem like, I mean, it doesn't feel like this is a life I should have. It's funny because the reason I asked it as I was listening to your book, I listened to everything while I run. I read so much of what you said resonates with me about like anyone can do what I've done and genuinely believe it. And it's not bullshit. It's like, yeah, why couldn't they? Like I don't feel special or unique.

But I think at least in your case, I think that. That's what makes you so appealing to the every man. It's like he's one of us. He's like, because that's how most people would feel. And the truth is, yeah, he's like one of us because he is. Just like, oh, and that's the same thing with the rock. I think that that's been one of the eye-opening things that's happened to me as I've had the pleasure of meeting some of these super famous people like jelly roll of

rock and Joe Rogan is like, we're all the same. Like I said earlier, everyone's the same. You're just trying to do the best with the circumstances that you're dealt with that you're in. Good or bad. And like I said, with the money, sometimes when things are going well, that doesn't necessarily lead to happiness. The only way to get happy is to have peace with yourself. And that comes you don't have to win races. You don't have to have endorsement deals to get that feeling.

And that's what I tried to stress to people when they ask me about, how'd you do this? How'd you do that? I'm like, that is not the answer. The answer is within you. It's being comfortable with who you are on a day-to-day basis, but trying to convince people of that is very difficult. And I don't know, for whatever reason when I was listening to a book, I felt like, Jesus, this is like guys,

I feel like I'm reading, he's reading my mind. Like a lot of the stuff was hitting home with me. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, I think part of it is, you know, I'm not a fighter like. you, but we've had to fight for everything. Yeah. You know what I mean? And been kicked in the dick, knocked down from addictions. You know, I had issues drinking. And it's like, once you go through all these

ups and downs, maybe shitty whatever childhood, maybe whatever, disappointment, relationships, addictions, and then you still won, that's where people form a connection, you know. And maybe it's from afar, maybe it's just from a book. But it's just like, God, that reminds me of my of my journey you know and so i think i think we've just had to fight yeah to get here that's that's a good point and i'm i'm i'm in the process now of writing a book myself and it's um it's very it's been very um therapeutic at times thinking about things that i haven't thought about in a while and i realize i haven't thought about them because they're painful but the only way to get through that pain is to go through it and deal with it and and in that regard it's been incredibly helpful for for me and like you

when people reach out and I'm going through the same thing or they identify with it. It keeps me motivated. It's what keeps me like going even. Not that I need motivation. You know how it is. It's like motivated. This is just what I do every day.

I wouldn't even know what to do without it. But it is incredibly rewarding. And I'm excited to see what the reaction is to the book. But I'm also overwhelmed with anxiety and insecurities about sharing more of my story. So it'll be a life story. Yeah, more or less. What's the title going to be? I've been going back and forth with the agents, but I'm not sure.

One of the things that I've been like kind of toying with is calling it 51% mindset, but I don't want it to sound like too salesy, but I think of things in these terms a lot. Like I only need to convince myself by an extra 1% that I can do something or that I'm going to do something. It's like the race that I did in Mongolia. I did this race across the Gobi Desert back in June. I was so scared and nervous to do this race. And like 49% of me was like, what in the hell are you doing?

And it was like, I couldn't sleep. I was overwhelmed. But there was one percent of me that was like, I'm registered. I'm doing it. You know what? I was going back and forth, back and forth.

But that extra 1% got me to say yes. And literally as I walked onto the jetway in Nashville to start the journey through Atlanta to Seoul to Ulan Batar in Mongolia, Yeah. As I walked on the jetway, I literally was almost said to myself, like, we're going to fucking kill these guys. I'm coming to kill people. Like, not really kill people. I love everyone. I want to be friends with everyone. But I want to win. This is not like, oh, I'm going to go on an adventure. No. That people have to wear like, do, was it fun? How was the scenery? I'm like, I was like pushing myself to the brink of death. It was not fun. It was work. That's how I think about it. And trying to explain that even to my wife. it's like 90% of the time is spent struggling in the effort of trying, failing, constantly pushing. And then you get like 10% or 9% of it is like kind of joyous that you realize you're going to win.

And that 1% is like, yes, I did it. I won. And the next day you're like, what am I going to do next? Yeah. That moment of like elation is so fleeting, but it's what keeps, it's like drugs. It's what keeps you coming back for more. But it's almost like I didn't,

choose to do the race. It almost like, without sounding corny, it almost like chose me. A friend of mine said, hey, I'm doing this race. And for whatever reason, the kid was the president of Equinox, Scott DeRue. And I said, dude, I bet I can win that race. And he was like, have you ever done an ultra? No. Have you ever run with a pack? No. Have you ever camped? Nothing. So why would you think you could win it? Because in my mind, I'm like, holy shit, you got to run 25 miles every day and one day is 50 miles for a week. And I was like, well, I can't imagine that anyone's trained more than me over for the last two years short of like Olympic or professional runners. And I don't think they're going to be there. And I was like, I tell, I said to my wife, I'm like, should I,

am I crazy? Should I do this? And she's like, well, you always talk about doing things outside of your comfort zone and the only growth comes, you know, she started quoting all my cliche shit. She's like, the only growth comes from being uncomfortable. Those are just words. I said, you're right. I'm doing it. And the funny thing is I was like, I, she was like, yeah, go ahead, do it. You can go there for a week. But then she was like, how much will it cost?

I'm like, oh, it's not even that bad few grand. She's like, oh, okay, I go, but the flight is super expensive. And she's like, nah, we'll take the kids to Hawaii before we do that. And luckily, thank God, I had a few brands that I've worked with, like athletic brewing, athletic greens, Roan and HVMN. And they came through and they all helped me out and offset some of the costs. And it's funny because the guy had athletic brun when I came back, he was like, dude, I can't believe you won.

And part of me was like, what do you mean? You can't believe it. I told you. I said, I told you I was going to win. He's like, do you know how many people call us and tell us they're going to do things and never, ever do it? Don't even come close. Yeah.

And I was like, no, I can't even imagine. I would have died trying. I would have come back, like, injured. Or I would have been like, okay, I came in third, but I'm getting them next year. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think people say they're going to do these crazy things. I think it's a small set of people that say they're going to win. You know, I mean, like for a lot of people in that race are probably like they're going to finish it.

Yeah. Most of them. To have the mindset, I'm going to win this and say that. That's what people, people are too afraid to put their goals out there usually. That's right. And including when that goal is I'm going to win, that's like most people avoid that because then you look like you failed when you don't win. Yes.

Or you're embarrassed that you. And I would have been all those things. Right. That's why I said it. Right. But that's what sets you apart. Right. And you.

They're telling people, hey, here's what I'm doing. This is, this is it. I don't say it at all from a point of arrogance. I say from a point of accountability like, yo, I think I can win this race. Why do you think you can win? I think I can win the Boston Marathon until someone proves me wrong. I mean, it's, it's always. almost far into me to like not think that. I mean, I think for the competitive runner, I think that

the only difference is a lot of people don't say that out loud. But for me, saying it out loud is not, I would never want it to be misconstrued as arrogance. I'm saying it because I do believe, part of me does believe that. And by saying it, I'm creating accountability and pressure for myself that I need to keep working. So like I'm all, I'm obviously, I'm going to run. But maybe I'll run without my backpack today. You ain't going to get a day off without that pack in the fucking desert in Marlolia. So I'd put, you know, 21 pounds of water bottles and towels in this backpack in June in Nashville. The whole bag in the towels would all be soaked with sweat after like 10 to 20 miles. It was so, I mean, after the first day, I was like, holy shit, what have I done?

First day of what? Training or the race? Training with the backpack. Okay. I was like, I'm not even going to finish. My heart rate was through the effing roof. I mean, oh, dude. The same effort level that I would put out to run like 7.15 a mile for 10 miles, I was putting out the same like the perceived effort and running like 8, 39 minute miles and dying. And it was just a different, you know, it's a different feel when you have that weight on you. It's like different exertion on your body. So everything was sore after I'd run. Yeah.

And I was like, but by saying I thought I could win and asking these brands to work with me. Yeah. Dude, you know how it is. I was told to my wife, I'm like, I've created pressure like a professional athlete. These brands are going to live and die with my success. Like I cannot go there and not empty the tank. Like I have to either win or come back dead. Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know that attitude reminds me of a lot of Brady. You know, Brady, he wasn't just like going to show up and have a good season. That's right. It was win the Super Bowl. Yeah. And so he made it to 10, 1, 7, but he was not afraid. I mean, I've heard stories about him, you know, talking about the offseason. Edelman, I think, shared this on his podcast that Brady'd be looking at, you know, a date in

whenever, in January or whenever the, or February, whenever the Super Bowl is. And Edelman would be like, what's this date about? He was like, that's the day of the Super Bowl. And it's like, what? You know, so that mindset reminds me of, hey, you want to win, that better be your goal. You don't win by accident. You're not going to go there with a goal of being competitive and accidentally win. Right. Because when the going gets tough, you're going to be like, if I'm in the top three, I'm still okay.

100%. Yeah. That's when I, when you think of, when I think of Brady, I also think of guys like Aaron Rogers. Like I love the way that guy gets after it when they tore his Achilles and he's like, yeah, I'm going to try and get it back by the end of the season. You're like, dude, you're going to tour in Achilles like see you in eight in nine months, whatever. And he's like to see him back out there hiking the other day with Robert Kennedy. and I just like guys that speak their mind and it's not popular and it's not easy to put out a dissenting view. And I respect everyone's opinion

but I love when someone isn't afraid to speak their mind and speak against the widely accepted narrative. And that's not to take a social position on anything. It's just to say, I appreciate and respect people that speak their mind. And we're going to vilify the guy because he doesn't agree with us.

Like what the fuck? What are we talking about? What is going on here? Yeah. So I know he's a big fan of the podcast here, so I hope he's listening and keep fighting the good fight. Yeah. I love Aaron Rogers.

I love Tom Brady. I love Edelman, too. I mean, Edelman was a freaking warrior. Dude, I was at the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue party in New York with my friend Neve Shulman, who is the host of Catfish on MTV. And he was on dance and stuff. Super nice guy. He's a big runner.

Yeah. And he was connected with someone. and he was like, come to this party with me. Actually, Sports Illustrators owned by Authentics Brands Group, and they own Reebok and Brooks Brothers, and those guys have been incredibly good to me. I've been working with Reebok for the last two years, and so shout out Authentic Brands Group.

But we went to this party, and Edelman was there, and I don't know if he recognized me, and Neve told him that I did the show, but he's like, hey, what's up, man? And I was like, to do my kids, a huge, huge fans. When we throw passes, they're like, Dad, I'm Edelman.

Hit me on thing. He goes, give me your phone right now. I've got a video. He's like, hey, right out boys. This is Julian Edelman. I heard you Boston guys are like, look up for trouble. But he called them all by name. He's like, hey, Chapman.

I see you guys. I sent it to them. They were like, my wife was like, they are losing their mind. That is awesome. They don't have their own phones. We have like some floater phones that they can take when we're needed because we don't let them use social media. Right.

And she was like, oh, they all want to take the family phone to school to show all their their video message from Edelman. But that's what I mean. Same thing with like Rock and Edelman, these guys. Like you know what an impact it makes for a little kid like that. Even Dana like bring your son. He wasn't like, Ken, you come to the UFC. He's like, bring your son.

Yeah. And it just makes such a difference on the kids. That's amazing. Yeah, I mean, like I said earlier, it could change a trajectory of their life. 100%. Because they have this dream and the dream seems real when they've watched it or met these people

or had these people speak their name. even. It's crazy. Yeah. So then you're like, I can't let this person down or whatever. I mean, it's the weird things that we can trick ourselves with. I did I did want to say, did you see that, I think it was some Edelman documentary about how hard his dad trained him? Yeah. I would love that. I love that because I've, I've often felt bad. That can go bad. I felt bad about how hard I push my voice before. And so I've seen, I mean, I've seen, and I know it can go. bad but it seems like it worked out for Edelman yeah no look here's a perfect example I have three sons they are so wildly different the little one like I said he trains jiu jihitsu at least

three nights a week and for a while during wrestling season he'd go to wrestling two nights a week so two nights a week he'd trained for like 90 minutes at wrestling in an hour in jihitsu back to back they started 10 minutes apart so sometimes when he comes home and he's like dad I don't want to train it's like I wouldn't never say this to the other kids because they don't I have something that is like they're almost like they're calling. It's not their thing. They play basketball. They play all sports.

But they don't have like the passion that he has, but it's hard to keep him on point. And then I'm like, dude, I can't force this kid to go to Jiu-Jitsu. Like I can't make him go. And some days it's like a fight. And then I'm like, all right, fine, don't go. And then my wife steps in and is the voice of reason and talks to him for two minutes and he's ready to go. She's like, you've just got to talk to him the right way.

But inevitably, he'll come on. out of there. It's like I always tell people, no one goes for a hard run or a workout and then regrets it. No. Every single time he comes out of jiu-jitsu, every time when he didn't want to go. And he's like, Dad, I'm glad I went. Yeah. Did really good. Yeah. And, um, but my middle son is, I don't know where he gets it, but he's obsessed with outdoors, like all the man skills that I don't have fishing, hunting. I don't know where it comes from. We got him a bow and arrow for a, what's, what's it called? Recurve. Recurve. Yeah. For Christmas. I've never shot it with them, because I don't even know how to like put the string on it.

But he's like, Dad, when are we going to do the, um, shoot the bow? But now I'm going home to show him my new bow and train him up. But he's going to, I know what's going to happen in the next couple of years. Once he gets good, we're going to be, I'm going to be calling you and being like, with the friend that put you in the awkward position of being like, please take me hunting with my 15 year old son. He's like, he's dying to do it. He goes, he fishes at the little ponds in our neighborhood by himself.

Really? I went down there a couple of times with him. It's so embarrassing. I caught a fish. I'm like, dude, I got one. Get it off the hook. He's like, grab it. I'm like, I'm not touching it.

You do it. Such a baby. No, you're not a baby. You just haven't grown up around it. I don't know. I mean, because walking around Boston wouldn't be, it would be a lot harder than touching a fish. Oh, hell yeah.

It's different. Surviving in Boston. I'm curious. So what's your goal with the book? Is it to inspire people? What do you think? Yeah, no, that's a very good question. One that the agent says in the proposal,

here's what you need to do. I think it's too, I don't want to say inspire and sound like a corny like it's a self-help book, but I want to give people an example with my own actions of what's possible when, like you would say, when an average guy just wants to be,

doesn't want to settle on mediocrity. When you decide that you're not going to settle for being average, it's amazing what you can. do and it's all a very simple formula. The person who works the most typically is the best. The guy who has the big muscles in the gym, he probably lift weights a lot more than you do. The guy who's winning the running race, he's training more. And as soon as I came to grips with that concept and just started training, it became like both my therapy, maybe my replacement addiction. And, you know,

maybe that's my advantage, but I don't care. I like the life I have now a lot more than the addicted loser life that I was living, lying to everyone, including myself, about when I'm going to get sober, lying to my wife, lying to my friends. It was, I was disgraceful. So maybe this is my penance that I'm like, you don't get any days off. You fucking used all your free passes up. But I think that the book, I'm hoping that it can, you know, inspire and be in and provide some motivation to someone who's, you know, even if, even if you can help a small handful of people that are going through addiction to say, like, you know, when you're in it, it doesn't seem like there's a light at the end of the tunnel. And it's like what we were talking about on the run.

The reason people that are fit in good athletes, runners, you know, good physiques, the reason that's such an awesome flex is because you know the commitment to sacrifice and the delayed gratification that they had to deal with to get there. That doesn't happen overnight. And when you're going through recovery, that first week of like detoxing and withdrawing, and withdrawing from the drugs is hell on earth. I mean, imagine being the sickest you've ever been, and it won't go away.

And you know it's not going to go away for 10 days. And you can end it at any minute by being like, let me just take a couple just to like, this is the big lie all addicts, I'm just going to wean myself off. I'll just take a couple. Two days later, you're back to full-blown, taking pills every single day, three or four times a day.

I'd take them in the morning, I'd take them at lunch, and I'd take them after dinner to chill. And I'd justify every single one of them. And what I'm hoping that some people realize is, yo, I promise you, you go into that dark tunnel of recovery, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, but it's like training. You might not see it for a little while, but you have to fucking blindly believe that it's at the end of the tunnel. You just have to keep going. Yeah. And I'm hoping that the book can, I mean, it's not just a book about addiction.

It's just about my own personal journey and some of the things that I've dealt with. And as much about recovery, it's about turning weaknesses into strengths. We cannot control what happens to us. We can only control our reaction. Okay, that sounds cliche and corny. Fuck this guy. I get it. But let me tell you, when I slapped that guy in the face for like, you know, thank

God, it was only a few hours where I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to have to move back to Boston. I have no money. I barely made enough money to pay my bills in New York. I had student loans. I turned that into a huge strength. It became like a calling card. like the clients that I had as a result,

they love that part of my personality. The addiction, most humiliating thing that's ever happened to me, I have now turned that story into like a building block to say, like, yo, look what's possible. I did this. I'm demonstrating to people like, you can do this. I was telling you earlier, I think that when you see someone who's gone through the recovery or withdrawal

process that I've gone through, it's like seeing someone who's like extremely overweight, and then you see them a year later and they look like the rock. And you're like, dude, what the hell? That's how I feel, that's how I view people that have gone through real addiction

like a heroin crack, that like hard drug addiction, like daily use. It's so hard to do. It's so hard. Your brain chemistry is altered forever. And that's the part that I struggle with now is knowing that I'm not the same person I was

and I used to like myself more than I do at times now, but I can't ever go back there. So it's no sense in like fretting over like jelly roll said when he won the CMA, like the windshield's bigger than the rearview mirror for a reason. It's like it's important that you recognize what happened, why it happened, but it's much more important to focus on what's in front of you. You can't change anything, but you can change what happens tomorrow. And again, the reason that these fucking corny or cliche saying stick around is because they're true tomorrow, that can be just one day or that can be day one of the

new journey. And it is nothing to stop you. Like you can have every. everything because there are people out there that are watching things like I'm doing but more so what you're doing. I'm saying you can do everything he's done. There's no like superpower there. Okay, you're obviously a good hunter, but like that's a learned skill. Someone could acquire that. Maybe not to your extent, to the extent you have, but I mean, Joe Rogan didn't know how to bull hunt when he started. He's shooting elk. I mean, there's people out there that are demonstrating what's possible. So it doesn't have to be running. It doesn't have to be hunting. But if you're seeing this and there's something you want to do, this should serve.

of us motivation that to use your words, we have two very average guys that I just decided like, I don't like being average. Yeah. I don't. It sucked. Yeah. I felt like I wanted to be recognized as being like successful, something. I wanted to have traits that people admired and there was only one way to get them to go through the fire. Right. And it's available to anyone. The gates open. Come on in. Yeah. For me and for you, it seems like the, answer to that, what do I do to be undeniable, essentially, is work every day. That's it. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know what's going to happen in three days. I don't know what's going to happen in two days, but I know what's going to happen tomorrow. I'm going to run that fucking mountain. And the weather. I guarantee you that. And the weather does not matter to me. It doesn't. And it's like, you know, you see people all the time like, you know, oh, what do you do for legs?

Or, oh, you're on PEDs because you get this and that. I'm like, just fucking run a mountain every day, dude. I mean, what are you doing? Until you do this for decades, then, you know, I guess you don't have, you can't really say shit. That's exactly what I say. It's like for people to cast aspersions

without being in the fight themselves. I'm like, if you were doing this kind of work and it wasn't working for you, then I'd say like, okay, well, let's look at why. But there's no one else that's doing this workload and not having success. Because anyone else to put in this kind of work is having success.

And they're way too busy to like shit talk and hate on the people that are achieving their goals. Yeah. Like there's no one successful out there telling their friends like, dude, look at all the people I trolled today. No. Right. I know.

It's, uh, they might tell their other loser buddy about it and they, they would like it. But, uh, I was going to ask, um, I don't think we talked about this is you worked at, was it the prison or jail? It was a prison. Prison. Well, the prison has a section that's a prison and then they also have a jail as well. For people don't know, jail is where people are being held waiting trial. Like you could technically get bailed out of jail if you have bail.

I mean, obviously, if you've killed someone on camera, you might get no bail. Although no bail seems to be like few and far between these days. You could chop someone's head off on a TV and they'll give you bail. Well, you got to think about it this way. We're all innocent until someone proves us guilty. Yeah. So the reason that their bail exists is because I haven't been proven guilty of a crime. So why should I sit in jail for the next year?

Dude, jail is no joke. Jail and prison are two different things. And jail is terrible. You have very, oh, dude, you have very few rights. You got one dude who's on a thousand dollar bail for drunk driving and another guy who killed 75 people and they're all in the same facility waiting trial. So, you know, to get no bail. But there's also instances where you know this guy is on camera killing someone like he shouldn't

have bail. Like, sorry, your bell is revoked. But they're all together. That's right. And then the prison is people serving sentences. And in the prison, then there's different levels of the prison. There's like a maximum security, what you would call a maximum security. And then there's like some modular units and work release.

And one time I was, this is just a funny side story. I was working at, so I worked full times in this full time in the summer while I was in college with a bunch of college buddies because the union guys there, like the other guards, they all want to take vacation in the summer. So they threw in. Yeah. Yeah. But they gave you like four hours of like classroom training, which was in hindsight, a joke.

Again, it was like kind of like the trading desk. It was more like hazing. It was like I trusted the inmates more than half the guards. Seriously. Yeah. So I'm working there one day and you get assigned different posts every time you work, more or less. I mean, some old timers would have the same like, okay, you're at the guard shack down in the parking lot. You never see inmates.

It's like the easiest job and you see just the visitors. And other guys are in like, okay, you're in the isolation cell, you're on the, you're in the ball field. Guess what's going to happen in the ball field in the summer? People are going to fight. Yeah. And dude, when there's a fight, all the doors closed. If you're out in the ball field and there's 200 inmates and two guards, that's not good. You better hope they don't have a problem with you because they will beat the shit out of you.

There is not, this is like not like Shawshank. This is more like Oz. Oh, God. One time an inmate said to me, if you don't have that badge on, I punch you right in your face. I was like, oh yeah, motherfucker. I went to put my hands on the badge, take it off. He punched me right in the face. No question to ask.

Then what happened? Oh, then the other guards came and they bundled them and you take them down to isolation and give them a beat and, you know, typical stuff. But still, I was like, I'd rather not have a punch in the face. Exactly. So I guess I'm into work release. And one of the benefits of being in work release is you get to go on,

you get to go like kind of off campus to like AA meetings. You're starting to get more and more freedom. as you're like segueing to like release date. Right. You know, they're, they're almost there. So typically the guys don't F around. They're in good behavior because they're almost out. Pretty much.

Yeah. But there's still idiots a lot of the times. Not all of them, but a lot of them. And there's undercover security that works for the sheriff's department in the prison. They kind of like float around. They'll go to these different meetings. They're undercover. Yeah.

So one of them. Listen for shit going on. Yeah. And they'll sit in on the meeting just to make sure they got the inmates when they're not being supervised, aren't doing anything crazy because they're crazy. Yeah, yeah. And so the guy comes, the detective comes up to me as I'm standing outside and with this like 10 passenger, big giant van.

And it's just me. And I probably look like I'm 13. I'm 18, but I look really young. And I'm in a full like police uniform. And I'm standing next to the van. The guy goes, hey, so and so like Tyrone Jenkins was drinking. Stop at the main building. We're going to take him out of work release and bring him back to the main maximum security

prison he's he's screwed so i'm like okay no problem i don't care it is what it is i'm driving you know prison is super segregated so the black guys are sitting in one section of the van white guys are sitting in the other and there's a white kid sitting next to me in the front seat because it's like it would be like you're a substitute teacher at a high school full of fresh kids like punks but some of them are cool you're like hey what's up man oh cool what you mind if i put on the radio no no go ahead so we're driving and i see them in the i see the black guys all constantly i'm congregating like four or five of them. And I'm like, oh man, what's going on?

I come to a red light in Cambridge, like so kind of in the inner city. And we're going out to Billerica, like suburb where the jail is, the prison. And the dude sprint jumps for the side door, opens the door, and jumps out of the van. Like, I don't have a weapon. There's no, they're not in jumpsuits. They're not in stripes like a movie. So he jumps out. So as he does, I turn to grab him and kind of fall out of the driver seat and start to get him.

and the passenger who's like kind of my buddy, you know, like I see him every day, he instinctively goes to help me. Yeah. And then quickly realized, like, oh, my God, what am I doing? I think they'll kill me. Yeah. So he jumps back. And now the van is rolling out into traffic in like, you know, like a major intersection in like kind of downtown of a city. So he jumps in the driver's seat, puts it in park.

And now I'm scrambling to my feet and the guy standing, we're both standing in the street. And I'm like, dude, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah. Get back in there. And you're 18? Yeah. And I'm like, I'm like a kid about to get in trouble. I go, dude, what are you doing?

The guy's right behind us. Get in the van. We're both going to get in trouble. He goes, no, I'm chatting, man. They caught me drinking. I'm going to be catching another case. Yeah. I said, dude, you got three seconds to get in this van or I'm driving out of here without you.

He got back in the fucking van. Dude, the whole way back to the prison, these guys teased him mercilessly. They were like, oh, the worst escape attempt. in history. Oh, no. And then I was like, as we pulled up, I'm like, there's no way I'm going to write a report with all this bullshit. It was like, it was like the day before Christmas. I was like, all right, brother, Merry Christmas. Good luck. And he was like, all right. And then, and then of course, the other inmates were like, Ken's the best. Ken for mayor. Yeah. But anyway, that's, that's a good depiction of what kind of everyday life was like there. It was like one minute, someone's

punching you in the face. The next minute, guys like, hey, you want some of these ramen noodles? I just made a whole batch. Yeah, sounds like a shit show most of time. But what I was going to ask is like, I mean, here, if you work at the jail on corrections, it's not a bad job. I mean, they're making maybe $70,000 a year. You know, you're going to work, you know, whatever. Like, was that a good job back there or a terrible job? I mean, like what you're describing, yeah, it's a good job. I don't want to disparage anyone, but I'm telling you, that was the worst job I've ever had. And I mean, I was a roof or a landscaper, I did every friggin' job under the sun, I would, it's like you're an inmate. You have to spend eight hours a day, five days a week in a prison. And there's nothing

nice happening there. Right. It's only risk. You don't get paid a lot of money for what you're doing. And it's a sad reflection of society. Yeah. Because look, some of the guys are cool. They got caught doing stupid things. But to get sentenced to jail, you have to make a lot of mistakes. stakes. Right. I mean, OJ. killed two people and didn't go to jail. If you have money in defense, you can pretty much get away with a lot of crimes. So by the time

you get convicted of enough crimes that you are actually doing time, no one there is going to be like, I'm innocent. But of course, there are guys there that were wrongly convicted. The worst case was there was a guy there who was convicted of molesting a bunch of kids at a daycare

and was later proven to be innocent. Can you imagine to this? Terrible. guy was terrorized. I bet. And this was a normal, nice guy. And he didn't do it. He was proven innocent and led out of jail. Like, dude, his mother and his sister, they ran a daycare. They were adults. They got, his name was Jerry Amaralt. There's a, there's a documentary about it. And I'm not saying he did or he didn't do it. I don't know. But I believe his conviction was overturned. He's out of jail. But dude, that guy was treated like a convicted pedophile. You know what that life is like in prison, dude? Probably terrible.

I don't even know how he didn't kill himself. It was, I mean, everybody. How long was he in? He probably did 20 years. Oh, my God, 20 years. Imagine, everybody hates you, the guards, the inmates. No, I mean, you're a rapist. The things that he was accused of doing were so heinous that you were like,

anyone with a half a brain would listen to the charges and listen to the description and be like, there's no way that someone could have done this in front of all these kids and no one else saw this. It was insanity. But it was like a modern-day witch hunt when you think about that when you look during the documentary, they explain how the trial went and the testimony. And listen, if someone out there knows the case and is involved and doesn't agree with me, I'm not trying to be offensive or, but looking at the case objectively, it's hard to think that this guy was guilty of these crimes.

And I actually knew him like really well because I'd see him every day for like years. And he was always super kind, super friendly, like, hey, what's up, man? had no problem talking about the case and being like, yeah, it's bullshit, I didn't do it. But a lot of people believed that he didn't do it. Yeah. Wow. Crazy. I couldn't imagine. You know, but then you'd be talking to him and then a few minutes later I'd be walking around the ball field with a guy who was convicted of murder for hire.

A convicted hitman. Convicted. You've got to have a lot of evidence against you to be convicted. Oh, no kidding. Yeah, that's a, I don't know. So there was no probably like. decision like, oh, I shouldn't quit this job. It's a good job.

Maybe I could just make a career of this at that time. That job was my motivation to move to New York and realize I've got to start studying. I've got to get out here. I've already like taken sociology. I can't change my major. I'm just going to get that. Maybe I'll get a master's degree after, but I cannot do this. Because when I first got the job before I started, I'm like, I'm good.

I'm going to have this civil service job. The best is great benefits. Like somehow benefits are like this unattainable like, golden goose of benefits. I'm like, dude, you got benefits? I'm like, you realize you can buy them. Like, you can pay for anything you want. Okay, they're expensive, but it's not worth,

you're not going to sacrifice your career because something had a good benefit package. Yeah. Like that's what a lot of people, like where I used to work, a lot of people would say we had good benefits, which we did. So maybe it was different.

And that is great. Yeah. But it's not a reason to pick a career path. Yeah. It's like settling, unless that's a job that speaks to you and you want to do that. And that's great.

I'm with it. Yeah. But for me, I was like, no, I don't want this. I don't want this life. But it was, that place was so interesting, changed my life in so many ways, including having these crazy stories to tell. But I worked there with Mickey Wood,

who they made the movie The Fighter about. And his brother, Dickie Ecklin, who was played by Christian Bale, he was in the jail while Mickey and I worked there together. Mickey only worked there for like two years. But how old was he then? He's probably a few years older than me, If I was 18, he was like 23.

He'd work there. And then on the weekends and at night he would drive a steamroller on the highway, paving company. Oh, yeah. And then when would he train? Anytime he could. The guy was unbelievable. But, you know, and then he had that fight with Arturo, the first fight with Arturo Gotti where I saw the fight on it was on HBO. I'm like, oh my God, they're putting Mickey in with Arturo God.

He's going to get killed because Mickey was good. But he was like, you know, no offense, like a club fighter. He wasn't. And he won. And it changed his whole life. They had a trilogy. They made millions of dollars. He's built a career from that.

And he's like, couldn't be a nicer person. Mickey Ward is like the salt of the earth. How's he doing now? Good. Yeah. That's his thing. He's got a power line like Mickey Ward boxing. He's got a boxing gym in Boston.

You know, he's doing his thing living in Lowell, Mass. Oh, man. That's where he was like in the movie, I remember, right? That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. So no, no like CTE type stuff? Because, I mean, he wasn't some wars.

Probably does. I think he had a detached retina. Yeah. Like, you know, but that's like one of those things where it's like, I don't know, is that his real personality or is he affected from fighting? He's just a jovial, cool guy, though. Yeah. Wow.

I guess it could be worse, right? Yeah. He's one of those guys like when I was growing up where he just was super comfortable moving in that chaos. And it's like, for me, the chaos of my childhood and growing up, The way I grew up was like kryptonite. I was an anxious, uncomfortable mess. I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

I had sports. And as a young kid, I was a really good athlete. And through high school and college, the other kids just caught up and just got better than me. Some kids were just destined to be good. We all did the same things, worked just as hard. It wasn't a work ethic thing. It's just like at a certain level, you're like tapped out.

And I never was comfortable in my surroundings. I didn't like where I lived. I didn't like living with my family. Everyone was, you know, my brother would end up being an inmate in that prison. My stepfather was an inmate in the prison before I worked there. And right when I went to start my either freshman or sophomore year, he gets out of prison. And my mother and my stepfather sit me down and they're like, hey, you know, so-and-so's got a new job. He's got out.

You know, he's out now. He's got a job. Okay, yeah, cool. Your stepfather? Yeah. I'm like, oh, okay, cool. Yeah, no, no. Wait, we just want to tell you, he got a job.

He's going to be a janet. I'm like, all right, cool, good luck with it. And he was like, yeah, at your high school. I was like, I was literally like, can you guys just kill me? Whack me in the head with a hammer? Like, why are you doing this to me? And they were like, how dare you be so selfish? You know, and it was, dude, it was.

Was it as bad as you thought? In hindsight now, it wasn't, you know, it's, I don't know, how bad is it occasionally someone be like, is that you dad? And I'm like, no, that's not my dad. Like, thank God my dad would come. come around to like my sporting events so most of my friends knew your real dad yeah yeah but i lived with my mom and my stepdad but yeah it was like i was like of all the like cruel things that they did to me over the years that was the coup de gras i was dude i was so bummed i bet now i can look at it and

laugh but there was nothing to laugh about at the time now it's a good it's a good part of your book yeah you know yeah it's the trauma and the addiction oh man yeah it's uh what is i mean your story is Oh, what did Dickie Edlin? What was it, drugs? Dickie. Why was he? He was on, they made a documentary about Dickie. That was, um, HBO made a documentary about him and they told him it was going to basically

be about his comeback. And really, it was called High on Crack Street. And it was about when Crack just came out and they were filming him smoking. They showed that, didn't they show like there's a clip of something about when he was in the movie in prison watching it? And it was going to come on. They're like, guys, my documentary is coming out. And they're all sitting in the day.

About him knocking down. Sugar Ray Leonard. Yeah. Which he did. Yeah. But they were talking about his comeback, but they were making a story, a documentary about addiction and crack, the crack epidemic and recorded him smoking crack, jumping out of windows. And yeah, when he came out, he was devastated.

But he's a cool, fun guy. Like, he's just a jovial dude, super funny. He's always rolling around with another buddy of mine called Mike Lee. They call him Bean Shooter, the most famous bank robber in Boston. He did time for, like, accessory. a murder, bank robbery, and he was a hardcore heroin addict. And actually, he's a funny follow on Instagram. I think it's Bean Shooter, 69.

He's got huge following, but he always gets banned from posting insane stuff. But now he's sober. He runs a sober house and he has a roofing company. But dude, this guy is funny. And it's funny now because people who know him and don't know me, they're like, dude, bean shooter follows you. I'm like, dude, dude, bean shooter is my dude. That's my friend.

But not being shoot of the famous bank robber, just being shoot of the sober guy. Yeah. But he's still crazy. Like he's hilarious on Instagram. Yeah. I mean, super offensive. So some people might see it and be like,

how dare you think this is funny? So footnote that. It's not for everyone. There's a disclaimer. Yeah, 100%. I always tell him like, dude, you got to tone this stuff down. You're not going to get any endorsement deals.

And, you know, obviously he laughs. Yeah. He's not the kind of guy is getting endorsement deals. Yeah. But yeah, man, that was that that time in my life that my childhood was in hindsight traumatized. You know, when you're in it, you're just like, this is what everyone's dealing with. We all have our baggage, right? But when I went to last year, I went to a place called On-site Workshops.

It's like a, it's called a trauma healing center. But I wasn't looking at it like, oh, my God, I've been traumatized. I better go fix myself. I was just like, dude, I got through this addiction. but I'm not as happy as I should be. And like I'm struggling with a lot of things. I'm struggling in my relationship with my wife. At times I'm not the best dad, but I want to be.

And I think that that's another thing about when you talk about vulnerabilities, it's like if you're not going to fix yourself, like, how can you help other people if you can't even help yourself? And I know that I wasn't living the quality of life I wanted from an emotional standpoint. So I went to this like five-day retreat. The crazy thing is when I was talking to Lance Armstrong in his podcast, He's like, oh, I've been to on-site three times. The amount of people when I talk,

I guarantee you people will hear this and be like, dude, I've been to on-site. It's a big commitment, but it's life-changing. It's the most important thing I've ever done for myself. And when I went there, you know, you're in intensive one-on-one therapy, like five, six hours a day for four days, just one-on-one.

Then you do some group stuff, which I wasn't as into, but it is helpful, kind of like an AA setting, but it's different. And the one of the one, was like, you know, tell me about childhood and we're talking. It's a normal conversation. It's not like you're, you know, being hypnotized or some bullshit. It's, so we're talking and I'm like, well, I didn't really have trauma per se in my childhood.

I mean, it sucked, but everyone's childhood sucked. And she's like, not necessarily. She's like, would your kids say that their childhood sucks? I'm like, are you crazy? My kids have the best life. So she's laughing and with telling stories and using all these visuals and I'm going through different transitions in my life and I'm telling her about things that happened that were like traumatic in hindsight and she's putting it all up on the wall I'm going to try not to get choked out talking

about it was so traumatizing and she was like what if I told you any of this shit happened to your kids I was like I failed I if my kids experience any one of those things I have failed I am a loser and she's like why are you special and your kids like your kids can't you can handle it but they can't do you think that you're a different in some way and it made me realize like we all want to think we're different but at the end of the day no one is we're all no no one's unique we have unique characteristics but we're still people we'll see process pain we just deal with it differently and it was a huge eye-opener for me and that was I think something that's been massively transformational to for me in my life and and certainly helping with helping me share these stories now so openly

and then eventually writing about them in my book. But like I said, that's part of the therapeutic process of letting go with this shit and acknowledging it and dealing with it. And that's been night and day difference since you've done that? For me, night and day. Yeah, because most people from the outside end would look like, look at your life

and look at all you have and all you've earned and what you have you've earned, obviously, and say, why would you, what do you mean? You have the perfect life. Why would you be unhappy? well, you can't just forget everything you were through in those formative years as a kid and how you felt.

You might block it out. Yep. But you don't forget it. And it still impacts you. The way that I was treated and the way that some incidents, some of the things that happened to me, get processed.

And then when I see my kids, you know, misbehaving or dealing with a situation, the way that I parent them, you can't help. but to in a lot of ways repeat certain cycles, even though you're not consciously doing it's like, you only know one way to deal with that the way it was dealt with with you.

I don't have never hit my kids. I mean, when they were little, they might have got a spank in here and here, but not like, not like I got hit. Right, punch. They might have been, oh, hit with a belt like multiple times a week, if not daily. It was crazy. But even then I was like, everyone gets this shit.

Everyone gets raised like this, you know, and the people doing it will justify like, oh, these kids need, motherfucker, no one needs, to be physically hurt to prove a point. Yeah. You have to be more creative. And I'm not suggesting like, parent the way you want.

But the thing that whacking a kid around is the way to get them to comply. How's that working out? No one's been beaten into compliance. It's like the beatings will continue until everyone complies. Well, I've seen until the beatings will continue until morale improves. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, you think about when I had think back on my childhood, too, is like how many kids were going to school and pretending like everything's okay.

100%. That's exactly. You don't know what they're going through at home because I know I pretending like I was good. Yep. I was a smart ass. Nobody knew what I, what happened. Yep. So, I mean, it happens a lot.

I mean, it happens to maybe, I don't want to say most, but more than we think, I bet. Having my kids now grow up in a different socioeconomic setting than when I grew up in, I'm realizing that, yes. Some people are terrible parents, but not everyone. Some kids have it pretty damn good. And the parents are good. And they're doing the right things. And we certainly try to do all the right things for my kids.

It's like a fine line. Like I said, they don't have a phone. We don't spoil them. But I also want to give them everything they want. My daughter the other day was like, Dad, Drake's coming. And I'm like, oh. Drake. And I'm like, Shell, I know she wants to go to Drake.

I got to do it. I have to take her, don't I? She's like, she really wants to go see Drake. She's 13. I'm like, all right. we're going but i drive them crazy because anytime we go to any event sports anything i said listen if you want to go here's the deal with like five minutes to go i'm leaving i'm not getting the crowd yep i don't want to be stampeded at the end i get like a crazy like crowd anxiety so he was

like playing the last song i'm like you're ready and she's like dad come on i go dude we had a deal on this she's like oh pouts the whole way home i'm like i bought you the damn hundred and forty a sweatshirt you went to see drake yeah and then the next day she's like dad i'm sorry i was and I was just having so much fun. Yeah. And she's, you know, it was, I tried to do like one-on-one things with them periodically. Like the little one went to UFC recently. My daughter, when we lived in L.A., we flew to New York and saw Frozen on Broadway, which was

awesome. Just the two of us. I took the oldest one, went to see Dude Perfect in Louisville. We stayed in a hotel. That was the least favorite for me. It was so boring. And then at the end, they did like a church sermon. It was like strange.

But I got to find the middle one. All he wants to do is outdoors things. he keeps telling me like dad can we go fishing can we go hunting i'm like i'm going to find something for us to do but i just now i know now i know how to shoot a bow yeah that was so therapeutic by the way oh yeah i mean as i as i mentioned in there the thing about archery is like you can't be distracted we're distracted in life all the time yep non-stop but in archery that's all you're thinking about oh like today yeah you were so focused on the act of releasing the arrow perfect and hitting that x it was so fun And that's what's beautiful about it.

Yeah. Is it takes everything. I can't wait to get home and show the little one, show my middle guy, Luke, the bow that you were generous enough to give me. By the way, if everyone listened, I got the sickest bow ever. Don't have bow envy. But yeah, I can't. I just, I'm so excited. I just can't wait to tell the kids about it.

They love stuff like this. I'm going to give you that bow here in a minute. But I was just thinking of one other question that I had. And it's like, because you've been associated. successful with your running. I'm just curious, you know, people, I think a lot of people accept the fact that, oh, their performance is going to suffer because they're older, right? You know, people talk about, you know, back in whatever, 20 years ago, I could have done this. But to me, I feel better now than I ever have. So it's like, why would my performance need

to suffer? I'm curious about how you feel like, have you peaked or are you still getting better? for like 15 years in a row I kept running faster races and last year maybe the last two years I haven't been able to run faster I ran a 229 10 in Chicago at the Chicago Marathon I was less than a minute off my best marathon at when I was 52 and uh on that day I was like damn I can do it I can like tweak a couple things but then like we're running today I'm like man I am so compared to marathon shape so out of shape like it just takes so much effort to get back there so But no, I think that if I continue to, if I focus, there's always things that we can fix. Like I can eat a better diet. I can clean up my diet a little bit and just eat more like high quality food, not to lose or gain weight, just to eat better for fuel.

I think there's a few things. But if I think I peak, then it's so easy to like let that be the first step towards like getting weaker and like backsliding. I like to stay in strong enough shape so that I can show up and do anything. Like people recognize you as an insane runner, Hunter, I love knowing I can show up and run with that guy and hold my own.

We can lift weights together and I'm not getting like blown out of the gym. No, you're strong. You're strong. That's the whole goal of life when people are like, what are you training for? I'm like, life. What do you mean when I train it for? That doesn't have to be a goal. So I do think in a crazy way that I can run a little faster, but I would also say

age is like such a convenient excuse for a lot of people. It's like once you submit to that, it's easy to subconsciously. have this silent agreement with yourself that it's like, well, I can't really get better. It's all downhill from here. So accept that. And like you said earlier, I don't feel any different. There's a couple things. When I look in the mirror, I'm like, holy shit, my face looks old.

Honestly, and my eyesight is deteriorating. I need reading glasses. Right when I turned 45 for the 40-year-olds out there, at 45, I was like, why can't I see my phone? Maybe I'm like, something's in my eye. And then eventually you're like, no, my eyesight is slipping. and I've always had 20-20 vision. But physically, I feel as strong.

I mean, I can easily do 20 to 30 pull-ups for several sets. Like, that's my daily exercise. I always, I never skip doing pull-ups. And I don't, the only difference is, like I said, the eyesight, I look older in my face, but I don't think my body does. It's like holding up. And I don't recover well from like missing sleep. So like if I'm flying, if I travel like, you know, across several.

time zones i noticed that i don't bounce back the way i used to like when i was a kid we could go out drinking and drugging all night and sleep two hours and get up and like you know by noon time you can't even remember that you were hung over right if i mean i don't drink now what if i if i did if i did have a drink and occasionally i have a drink with my wife like i feel it for like the entire next day and i'm like why did i do that yeah yeah it never fails right but performance wise yeah you're still pushing hard yeah yeah so i just give a quick shout out to my guys at athletic brewing for the non-alcoholic beer. It makes me feel a little bit still like a,

it's funny that there's a stigma to like not drinking. Like somehow I'm like less tough. Right. But those guys have, they've done a killer job. Bill Schufeld and the team there, he was just featured in the Wall Street Journal. And I'm super proud to be associated with,

with the team at athletic brewing. And I know they were like super excited. They were like, we'll send some beer for the podcast. I'm like, man, I'm not bringing a product on someone else's podcast. but they're big fans of the podcast, so shout out to athletic bullying.

Yeah, that's great. Well, yeah, I was just curious about that just because I know what a, I mean, you're a freak, dude. I mean, I wouldn't say that like, you said today's run, you said something about you're so far off of Earth. It was like way different. I mean, four miles straight uphill.

I mean, that's not. But it was hard. All bullshit aside, I did not expect, I knew you were a good runner. I didn't expect to be, that you were. were that good. Like honestly, I mean, it's a compliment. I was like, damn, he's going to slow down as we get further into this hill because we're moving. And it, if anything, you got faster. And on the

descends, I said, I have to tell Cam, I'm like, go ahead. I'm not, this is too technical for me. I don't want to fall and bust my head open, which is definitely possible. Descending is a very technical skill. But, man, I was, I was super impressed with your skills on the mountain. Well, thank you. But how I want to in this is giving you your brand new bow. Just keep hammering Hoyt, Torregs. And you shot amazing today. So this is, so my, what I do in this podcast, every guest I have here, I consider an outlier.

I mean, sometimes people might not know they're an outlier. I've explained why this person is incredible in their field. I don't have to explain you to anybody. People can just look at you, know of you, already know about you and they know that Ken Wright out is the fucking man and he's a stud. He's obviously an outlier. So this is how I love to end the podcast,

is sharing my life with outliers, people who I respect, people who have helped me grow or pull back the blinders on something and see something from a different perspective and you have in regard to so much, in regard to your life, your challenges, your addictions, your performances. And so I just want to end this podcast,

giving you your bow and telling you how much you mean to me. Oh, man. Thank you very much, Kim. Oh, they're so, so kind, so generous. I literally told my wife, I'm like, if I like this shit, I'm going to buy one of those really nice bows. And when you said, you're taking this home with you, I was like, come on, man. Come on. I'm like, I'm just so honored.

I mean, when I look at the, your Wall of Fame at the, um, the bow rack. Boerack, yeah. Boerack. And see all the guests that have been on the show. It's so surreal to me to think like, I'm not in a group with these people. these are like legends so to be here with you and have you say those nice things about me is um man it was it's so surreal and so humbling and uh i was having a very very bad week and uh i'm i feel a lot better and uh so thank you man i appreciate you oh brother you're a legend and uh i'm so thankful that

through rob and huberman and you know your circle here we got connected and yeah and i'm just i'm thankful for your friendship, you know, and spend the day with you and share my life with you, as I said. So thank you. I hope everybody enjoys the podcast. I know they will because you have so much to offer, but thank you, Ken. I appreciate you. Thank you. And thank you to your awesome fans. When I put on Strava that I was leaving to go, I just put in the comment, like, go into Oregon to run with Cam Haynes. Like, if I get normally five comments, there were like 500 comments of like, yes, I've been waiting for this. So thank you to all. Thank you. Thank you, Cam. And thank you. you to the fans who've been so supportive and awesome i um i love everyone and this is so such an honor

thank you all right brother keep hammering