Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 064 - Ben Blankenship

Episode Date: March 23, 2024

Join us for a discussion with Ben Blankenship, 2016 U.S. Olympic middle distance runner and 100-mile ultramarathoner. Ben and Cam talk about the struggles of running a 100 mile race, Ben’s background in running and more!  Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Connect with Ben: https://www.instagram.com/benfblankenship  Thank you to our sponsors: Black Rifle: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first Order Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv  MUD\WTR: https://mudwtr.com/cam use code Cam for 15% off  Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/  Ketone IQ: https://hvmn.com/CAM use code CAM for 20% Leupold: https://www.leupold.com/ Timestamps: 0:00:00 Intro 0:02:05 Running is Always Hard 0:06:46 The Olympics and Ben’s Next Running Goal 0:07:57 Last Place or 4th & Living Up to Your Potential 0:16:40 John Ball & Recovering From Injuries 0:22:48 Discovering Running as a Kid 0:28:50 The Struggles of Ben’s First 100 Mile Race 0:40:38 Training for the 100 Miler 0:45:27 Running Summits to Build Strength & Having a Good Team 0:49:52 Upcoming Races & Cocodona 0:53:34 The Key to Racing a 100 Mile Race 0:55:47 Ben’s Training Regime & Body Composition in Running 01:01:39 Ben’s Diet & A Mindset to Keep Pushing Hard 01:13:51 Women Are Tough, Meeting the Right People & Writing 01:18:04 Eating Disorders & Mental Toughness 01:21:20 Running Alone & Making the Sport Exciting 01:26:25 Matthew Centrowitz 01:39:12 Runners, Emma Coburn & Krissy Gear 01:41:28 Ben’s Most Proud Race 01:43:11 The Olympics Isn’t Everything 01:51:20 Non Profit: The Endless Mileage Project 01:53:49 Ben’s Running Idol Growing Up 01:55:23 How Eugene, Oregon’s Environment Has Shaped Cam’s Career 01:59:30 How Has Running Shaped Bowhunting for Cam 02:02:27 Cam’s Motivation for Running & Hunting 02:10:49 The Unknown in Hunting & Being Prepared for Hard Days 02:15:29 Outro

Every step I take I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel. Gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I move it's so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. This is a Keep Hammering Collective.

That was the official start. That's like my clapper. And I'm here with Ben Blankenship. How you doing? Good. I'm glad to be here. I'm honored to be here. Oh, man.

I feel like this is like this is going to be your average, the average guy, Oh, man. I mean, I know you've said that, but the average guy doesn't run the Olympics. Just, I don't know if you knew that, but. Because the average guy that keeps showing up, yes. Oh, really? Well, you've got an amazing story. I was doing some, oh, yeah, I was doing some research this morning on you. I like this. I like this quote or let me think. Somebody's, I think Let's Run was doing an interview with you. Oh, no. Yeah. This is the problem with the internet. Things stick around. Yeah. But no, this is good. So the question was, biggest thing you've learned this year. Do you remember that?

No. Okay. Well, it said, you just got to be tough. Every time you get out there, it's always hard. There are no real free rides in this sport. Maybe some races feel better than others, but they're all pretty tough and they're all pretty hard. Physically, you've just got to be prepared to get your ass kicked every time you get out there.

So is that, that's running to you? That's running to me. It's running 101. Yeah. But I think that I read that this one. that I was thinking about, you know, you went, you've went from the Olympics where you ran in the 1500 in Rio. Yeah. So that was three minutes and what was it? How, what was we were slow? You had Centra on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Was it? It wasn't over four minutes. I was it. No, it's like three,

three 40. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's so three minutes, but then you just this last weekend did a hundred mile, which lasted, I'm pretty sure, longer than three minutes and 40 seconds. Yeah. But it did. It didn't feel like that long. Really? Yeah. It went by really quick. So I was just been interested to hear the difference between performing. I mean, in that quote, you said everything's hard.

Running's always hard. But tell me the difference between a three minute and 40 second performance where I don't know, it probably wasn't hard for, what, two minutes of it? I think it's hard the whole time. Just because it's pressure or what? You're playing theoretically the best chess match of your life, especially when it's tactical like that. Every mistake is going to be amplified and it's a race of meters versus a race of miles. And I think both of them are very similar but yet very different.

So you say even like the cruise in a comfortable pace, even every yard of that or meter is hard, right? And is it just because you're one, you're like thinking so much about what it means and like how you fit in the puzzle? Yeah. And you're really, to be a great runner, you're studying everybody else. At that level, you have to figure out what everybody else is like ticks are. And I think the one thing that I was really good at was figuring out like how is everybody else feeling compared to myself. That was the one thing that I was good at. I wasn't good at very much.

But that was the one thing I could kind of figure out like. Yeah. How is everybody else feeling? So just like during the race, you could either sense it just from a tell or something or how they were carrying themselves or a little. I remember, well, so you tell me if this is anywhere close to what you're talking about, but I used to always, well, it would be to motivate my kids or like sometimes guys would be talking shit at work. So I'd take the kids and the guys who were talking shit over to Piscan, I'd say, okay, let's run. and I tell my boys I said just make sure you you beat whoever we'd bring over here just because just to remind them you know and uh and and and one of them truitt told me that yeah he was racing this guy for my work and he and the guy started to or he was spitting and tru was like I knew when he started to spit he was hurting yeah and so is it like that I think sometimes

I think it's really subtle yeah I think like in a race like the Olympic final right, it's all about where you're going to be positioned and utilizing the least amount of energy, whether it's in your brain or really physically. And for such a tactical race, like, if you look at that final, I think I was probably the one with the least experience. I was the slowest guy in the field, most likely, and I was just trying to fit into the puzzle. And I will say that, like, I look back and I would, I'd say that's probably the one race that I felt like I had the opportunity to do something big and bold and dumb and I didn't and it was very unbranded of me. It was like the one opportunity just to be like hell with it. Let's go do something big and dumb and

it probably won't work, but who cares? Because that's what that's been your mantra pretty much running, right? Big and dumb and it won't work. So then what happened? Did you overthink it or was it the moment? I think it was the moment. It was the one time in my life where like the moment kind of got me and I was like, I would rather be in the middle than last. Right. And I don't know why I thought that. Yeah, I mean, I think there's self-preservation, you know, natural. Yeah.

You know, I mean, nobody wants to, nobody wants to ever be last, you know. But yeah, I think, you know, that's interesting, too. I haven't thought about it like that. But so if you look at somebody like, I don't know, somebody say just intro, But if you were running and you're all in great phenomenal shape, but if you're thinking about maybe he was in that position, he just was like felt so relaxed. He wasn't wasting those like the nervous system taxed,

thinking about different things, just like felt more comfortable. And maybe you were just like, man, what should I do? Yeah. You know, I mean, it's not a physical exertion, but it is taxing your system. Oh, totally. And when you're also elite, if you're taxing your system more than the next guy, just even like mentally, that probably...

And then you make mistakes. Right. Yeah. Right. Hmm. Yeah. That's interesting. I never thought about it because, you know, what I do is like the big miles and it's like you have plenty of time to work shit out.

Yeah. You know what I mean? When you only have three minutes and 40 seconds, it's like you can't be dicking around too long. Yeah. No, you have a couple of mistakes, but not very many. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm, that was a, I mean, I'm curious, too, did you expect to ever get to the Olympics when you, as a young runner?

No, I'm not, I'm not motivated that way. Really? I didn't grow up. I didn't come from like a running background. My parents didn't know much, which was really helpful, I think, to me and where kind of my timeline. But I'm really goal-oriented and I'm really competitive. So it was like, let's be competitive in this race and let's be competitive in this race and let's be. go to the next. I'm really on to the next thing.

Just one thing at a time. Yeah. And then it just ended up the Olympics. You take that attitude. Yeah, I think like I came out of college. I had a few opportunities. I made a U.S. final and it was like, let's make a world team. And then in 2015, I was fourth.

And the next step was like, let's make the Olympic team. And then after that, it was like, let's do something else. Let's do something else. And then I run 100 miles. And now it's like, what are we going to do next? What's the next project? Oh, what is the next? project? I don't know. I'm not run Grand Diverse later this summer. And then I don't know yet. I really,

I really enjoyed the 100 mile distance. Did you? Yeah. You liked it. I liked it. God, okay, I don't want to forget that part, but you did mention he got fourth at the world championship, which is kind of like a footnote in your story you just said. So fourth means you didn't make the team. I didn't make the team. So the top three go. Yeah. That fourth is, you know, Would you rather be last than fourth? I don't know. I don't know. I think that year I ran probably the best race I could run.

So that felt good. It felt really good. And it was super motivating. Wasn't it like you were right behind third, right? Yeah. Like Leo and I came to the line together. And then we had to watch that stupid scoreboard for a lifetime waiting. And I knew it.

I knew it in my heart that I was fourth. Like you feel it, right? Even if it's a millionth of a second, you know. That presence of that. You're like, I think he's a little ahead. Yeah, exactly. And waiting for our names to unfold. And it was like, okay, I have one year to redeem myself.

And then, you know, 12 hours later, we started training for the next year. And wasn't it fourth by a thousandth of a second? Yeah. Was that right? Yeah. It was really close. But it didn't matter. It didn't matter if I was fourth by a mile or by that little.

I know, but that is like. It kept it exciting. Yeah, I bet. So, oh, I was curious about this, too. So did you guys dive or what was it at the end? No, we kind of like did like a really crappy distance runner lean, right? Like we were both pretty fatigued. Yeah.

It was like anti-comactic. Yeah. But yeah. So I'm curious when it comes, you know how you always say or people always say, you know, leave it all on the track or give all you got. But to me, I don't know, it's so hard. People say all the time, I did the best I could, right? I gave it all.

But who knows? Who really ever knows if you gave it? Because to me, and it's so easy to say, it was like, oh, well, were you puking and did you collapse? No. Then did you give it all? Yeah. So does that, how does that, how do you give it all and not just be taxed out? Because you never see it.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't. Isn't that weird? Yeah. I don't know. I've never lived by those modos, I guess. I haven't been able to figure those out. Like, I feel like so many people in my life are like, man, you work really hard.

I've been around people who have worked really hard. Yeah. Like Sarah Hall. She's a great example. Oh, man. If I could work 10% as hard as she did, I would be phenomenal. How is, like, what do you mean? How does she work hard compared others?

She's extremely dedicated. She's awake for, let's say, 10 hours a day. And nine hours of those 10 hours is, is, getting better at running. And if I could do 90 minutes of like getting better at running, I would be much better. Yeah. So, yeah, I know.

That is, yeah, she, and she's been like pretty obsessed with making an Olympic team, right? Yeah. And like, I think she, she's been in the sport for so long. She was really good at high school. And now 20 years later, she's still at the cutting edge of running. Right there. is unbelievable mentally and physically. Yeah, just to be able to keep showing up for that long.

Because it's exhaust, not just physically exhausting, but just like thinking about it all the time. And to keep yourself motivated to still show up. Like I was really ready to be done with the track. Like I got to the end of my track and I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't even want to run on the track. Really?

Because I couldn't change it up and still have fun. Right. I'm very motivated, motivated by like two things. One is having fun, and the other one's like conquering new challenges. And if one of those two kind of get boring, then I'm ready to move on to the next thing. Right. Yeah. It's, I don't know what that, you know, everybody sees the glamour of like you watch the Olympics and it looks incredible.

Yeah. Every four years, though. Every four years. And for you, and you had a long time, three minutes and 40 seconds. Imagine the hundred. Nine seconds. You know, I mean nine seconds every four years. That would be, I don't know.

And there, especially when you talk about how every meter counts, if they have a shitty start, it's over. It's over. So it's just that reaction time. I mean, that must be really hard to reason in your head that it could come down to just your reaction. We've talked about this, I think, on a run where time moves so different for very many, for different people.

Right. And I think when you're out there and you're a really good, sprinter, it's a lifetime. Yeah, that nine seconds. It's a lifetime. Coming out of the blocks is a whole different world. That's its own race probably. It's its own race. In their heads. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's other little races, right? It's like, how do I come out of the drive phrase? Am I keep accelerating? And then how do I hold my top end speed? And I think when you start breaking it down, those nine seconds turns into an all-day affair. Yeah. Even though when we watch it on television, it goes super fast. Yeah. Yeah. I just, uh, I think there's,

a lot of glamour and like and rightfully so being an Olympic athlete but yeah it probably would be hard that it's only every four years and it requires so much sacrifice to get there even just to get there and then all the qualifying rounds trying to be healthy trying to be at your best on that one random day basically out of your life man yeah and uh you know you talked about sarah she ran a great race and just like a month ago or whatever it was in the Olympic marathon trials and did incredible. Is she 40? Yes, 40 plus, I think, right around there. And it was just right on the cusp of that team.

Yeah. I think fourth or fifth, but close. Close, yeah. But she's done so many cool things. And I think one thing in our sport we get so wrong is this Olympics becomes the Everest of everything. And it's so defining, right? it's like, oh, you made an Olympic final.

Sure, but I've also run in that same race with those same kind of people dozens of times. Yeah. And for some reason, we've always got caught up in like track and field is about the Olympics, where there's so many amazing events. And for us, I always feel like it puts us in this position where you're an Olympian or you're not. And that's success or it's not success. Right. And I remember talking to some random.

guy a little while ago. And I looked up to Ryan Hall almost my entire career. He was just kind of a badass guy, did some really cool stuff, but always did it kind of his own way. This is Sarah's husband. Sarah's husband. Yeah. And he made two Olympic teams. He won the trials. He's run faster than anybody else. And the guy's quote was, Ryan really never lived up to his potential. Oh, my. What? Well, he made two Olympic teams. And I think like it's very true. It's like, well, you made one and that's probably kind of lock. Two, you're okay.

If you make three, you're probably okay. Like, you're pretty good. So basically it's never enough. It's never enough. Yeah. You know? Yeah, it's never. So I guess to your point, then the satisfaction has to be from within.

Yeah. Because people on the outside, they can always throw stones of something. Yeah. You know, potential. I mean, what does potential mean? I have no idea. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I can, I'm a huge track fan, which is like living here in Eugene, that's kind of a prerequisite, it seems like.

And I love the big track meets. I love going and seeing athletes like yourself perform. But yeah, I mean, I oftentimes think about how difficult that is. And it's just like anything from the outside, it looks great. Yeah. You know, it's like, you know, it looks like, oh, man, all they do is run and be fit and get attention. and make money and man I think like one of those three things is true it's like we do a lot of running I don't I don't think we make much money and the attention is very you know fleeting yeah no I understand

I mean but there would be just a fact there has to be some honor in that you've been an Olympian I mean that's a big thing but that wouldn't be a life-defining thing yeah and it feels like a lifetime ago does it yeah yeah so 2016 so are we eight years yeah I think I read in that same in that same article I wonder what you're I don't know so 2012 you were hurt or you're doing construction or something

I was hurt yeah you got out of college then you had to have surgery on a formal thing yeah it was like like everything right surgeries come in phases and doctors love to be like oh this is the new thing that'll fix you yeah I probably could have just like done some strength training and learned

I think one thing in my career that I was really lucky about was I I met some incredible people. And those incredible people got me where I am today. One of those people, I came out of college and I was broken and lost and I didn't know what I was going to keep doing. I was really only good at running school I sucked at. And I met a guy named John Ball. And I stayed with him in Phoenix for months.

I just kept showing up. This is a story where you just showed up and you had to sit in the chair for hours. Hours. Tell me what that. Yeah. So a lot of people kind of recommended, hey, go see John. He's awesome. Is like a running guru type thing or performance or what? Yeah, he became everything to me, pretty much my whole career and even today. He was a sounding board. He was a back, like, he's somebody that I would call and be like, hey, I have this idea. He'd be like, you're an idiot. You're an idiot. And I was like, okay, great. I know I'm on the right track now. And he put so much time and so much effort into me. And I think he was one of the only people at the time that I actually believed that I was going to get better. And he took me from, I was running probably like a mile in like sheer pain.

And I was like, I could run more. Where was it hurting? Pretty much everywhere. I was so broken at that point. Like I had gone through this cycle of like, I got surgery. I wanted to come back for the trials. And I was like, okay, I'm just going to run a ton. I'll get better.

And then I'd get hurt. I'd have a stress fracture. I'd do something. I'd take time off. And I'd be like, okay, let's go back full blast. And then I'd get hurt again. And then pretty much at the end of 2012-ish, I was like, well, this isn't going to work. I'm not very good anymore.

And I had a great career. That was super fun. Like, let's go do something else. And I ended up down at John's office, and he just kept working on me. And it was just like kind of the middle of the night once he had seen all his patients for the day. And he just like kept investing in me. And it was like, Let's do a little bit of running.

Let's do a little bit more running. And I spent pretty much all, I don't know, whatever timeline, months down there. And it went from like putting together one mile on and off the treadmill and him watching me run and like, hey, we're going to fix this. We're going to fix this to get this better. And I didn't understand any of it at the time. Is he a doctor? Kind of. He was pretty much a Cairo in the beginning.

And then he threw all that out of the window. it just was like, let's get back down to the basics. The basics is like you're super tight here. Let's fix that to fix these other problems. And it worked. Wow. And it continued to work. I wonder why he believed you knew so much.

I have no idea. I don't think he'll ever tell me. Maybe he just felt sorry for you. I think it was a project. I came in so broken and I think it was like a big challenge for him. Like if I can get this guy. Because if you couldn't do a mile. I couldn't run a mile.

Not a good mom. I could like tough through a mile at like nine minute pace. And I think it was like the project of like, if I can take this guy with zero hope and zero talent and zero ability to do anything at this point and get them back to running, it'll be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's a story of overcoming adversity, I guess. Well, so I wonder why you're so broken. Was it, were you a lot lighter than you are?

Do you think it was like a diet thing too? or over training or what? I think a lot of it was just like I kept putting myself in a hole. Like I just kept running through things thinking that like, I can like I can handle this little bit of pain. And then I'd have a stress fracture and I'd be like I can kind of like through some of it. And then I just didn't know anything.

I didn't know like anything. And so I didn't like I didn't do any like gym work. I just ran more. Like the solution to all my problems always as as as, anybody was like, I'll just run more and I'll get better. Yeah, that's, I mean, I do understand that because sometimes when you don't know what to do, you feel like, well, if I just work, if I just, you know, if running is like punching the time clock, okay, I just got to get to work.

Yeah. And, yeah, it kind of masks a lot of other things, but you feel like you're going in the right direction because you're hurting. That feels like a sacrifice. Exactly. You're getting in miles. You're working up a sweat. There's a lot of positives to that effort.

but yeah if your body isn't working correctly then yeah it's not going to go that won't go away no huh that's interesting i mean so when did when did you finally see some like big results from that just slowly or did you have like a breakout moment it was slow and i think i moved to eugene and people believed in me mark rowland he was the coach of the oregon track club at that point believed in me and i have no idea why he believed in me. He was like, hey, show up and like get some work done. And that was awesome to have somebody who did that.

But it was a really slow evolutionary process for myself. It was like, let's put together a season. I did that. Let's make a U.S. final. We did that. Then it was like, let's make a world team. We just missed out. And then the next step was like, let's make an Olympic team.

And I was like, okay, let's try to do that. And then it was like, I want to be as competitive. as I possibly can be at the world level. But as a kid, I never thought about any of that. It was like, let's just go out and run. Let's have fun. Yeah. So to that point, then when you're a kid, have you always run?

I mean... It was the first thing I was good at. It was the first and only thing I was good at. When did you realize that? So my mom dragged me to an all-comers meet. We had just moved to a new town. I was a super dorky kid, so not much has changed. And she dragged me to this all-comers meet,

and she put me in the mile. And I was like the only kid in the mile. And I had no idea how far a mile was. So I was just like running around the track. And a couple of the older like high school guys ran with me because I was like the dorky kid by himself out there. And that was kind of awesome. I was like, okay, cool.

And then I was like, I'd never want to run again. Don't put me in that position mom. That sucked. Thanks. And it wasn't really until I got to like kind of the high school. like eighth, ninth grade level that like I started running and then I was immediately good at it. And then I felt weird that I was so good at it because I hadn't been good at anything else in my life. You didn't know how to, you didn't know how to, what would I say?

internalize it or I mean you're actually good at something. Yeah. So you were like maybe, I mean, I don't know, maybe you were just like so lacked confidence. Oh, totally. kind of walking around, like feeling judged. And then all of a sudden, now you're the opposite. Yeah. Wait, now I'm good at this.

Yeah, I'm like, I don't even have to try at this point. Like, I'm just good. Like, why am I good at this? Yeah, so I understand how that might so much different than what you thought of yourself. And now of a sudden you were, you know, standing out for a cool reason. Yeah. I don't know if it's cool. But I think, like, anytime you find something that you're good at, it feels good.

Yeah. Like, it gives you that confidence, internal confidence. And that really has been something I've really dug into. Yeah. And then so that started ninth or tenth grade or something. And then how did, I mean, how did your running take off from there? It went really well. But again, I wasn't a guy who looked at going to college.

Like my parents were really successful in kind of an unorthodox way where like they were just good at what they did. Yeah. And like they never were like, oh, Ben, you should go to college. What do they do? They were kind of in like the restaurant industry for a long time. And my dad was always really good at stuff. And my mom was like, she loved to work. Like my mom works.

She's retired and still works probably 40 hours a week because she's retired. Because that's what she wants to do. Yeah. She's amazing. Yeah. And I was a kid who like hated school and like they never were like, oh, you have to go to college. So I remember my, it was like junior, senior year. I was supposed to go on a recruit.

like an official recruiting. Were they asking like, Ben, what are you going to do with your life? No. No. They never put the pressure on me. Yeah.

They like always, I think they had confidence that like I was going to figure it out. Okay. I had always kind of figured it out. Yeah. School was always one of those things that like I struggled with. So I was in summer school every year.

Oh. I think they were worried about that maybe a little bit. But I think at the end of the day, they're like he'll figure it out. Yeah. Like he'll figure it out. That's nice. I mean,

they, you know, loved and believed. in you enough to give you the freedom. Yeah. And then so that recruiting trip, you said? Yeah, I was supposed to go on this recruiting trip. And I was like, it was like that weekend or something. And this is like when you have like a landline, right?

So like the high or the college coach calls your house. I'm like tethered to the wall, you know? And he was like, hey man, you said you were okay at school. I'm like, yeah, I am okay, I guess. Like I'm going. And he's like, you have like a 1.6 GPA. like we can't get you in. I was like, okay.

And he's like, you can't come on this recruiting trip. Oh, no. But it was never anything that I thought about. It wasn't like, okay, I'm going to be good at running in high school and then I'm going to be good in college and then I'm going to be a professional runner. Then I'm going to do these things. It just wasn't how I think.

And it's still not how I think. So then when he said you can't come, you were just like, okay. Okay, cool. I'll do something else. Okay, then what happened? I went to Mississippi State because they had like a really cool program where like if you sucked at high school, you can come here, take this like special program. And then from there, like I had a really good time Mississippi State set me up to go somewhere else. It was complicated.

That's like a long story. Finally went to Minnesota. I had a college coach Steve Pescentia who ran out here for Athletics West. And he was really a guiding stone of like, you. want to be good, this is how you do it. And I hadn't had anybody, I think, at that point. Like a training log or like a life log? A life log. Okay. Of like, hey, this is a timeline that you should look at. If you want to be good at this, you got to get good now. So then you can have opportunities later. I don't know if I was fully listening, but like kind of understood that

path. Yeah, just roughly. You're like, oh, okay, I got it. It's going to take a little time. Okay. And then, so then Minnesota went. Went well. You ran there three years or what? Yeah. Went okay. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, you're all American.

Yeah. I can't. It's like I, I think like my, I, the thing that I'm really bad about is I don't care. Yeah. I don't care about any of that stuff. My only goal now is the future. It's like, okay, those opportunities, winning a Big Ten championship, going to, you know, nationals, gave me these opportunities to other things that I want to do.

Right. And I've always looked at everything as a stepping stone. Yeah. This has allowed me to do this. I see. And then, but that was a big change going from the track to the 100 mile ultra. Yeah. But it wasn't in my mind.

No. It just made sense. Just a different. Another goal. Yeah. Just going to work towards it. Why 100 mile? How come you didn't start with like a 50K?

Because it sounds boring. Too short. Yeah. And it's too similar. Like I wanted to do something that like put me out there exposed for a really long time. Yeah. Yeah, that one, so you did, tell me what the race was called? A rabid raccoon.

Yeah, and where was it? Outside of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and Beaver County. Okay. Very crittery. Yeah, a lot of animals. A lot of animals. Yeah, a lot of hunters back there. There you go.

Yeah, there's a lot of hunters. So, yeah, that one, it was, how many, so it was 12 and a half mile loops? Is that what I? Yeah. I was falling along because I was like, oh, man, I won't bend to kick ass on this. But yeah, so tell me about the race. Yeah, so Wolf Creek management puts on the race. Yeah.

And they had reached out, and it was a perfect introduction, 100-miler, 12-mile loops. And then I could always come back to the main aid station, which made sense for me because I'm not organized. And it was like, I don't know what I all need on a point-to-point, right? If I had to do drop bags, I don't know what I'd do. I don't even know where I'd start. Yeah. So there were 12-mile loops, and that helped. But it really, like, I felt like going into the weekend and even during the race, I had the easiest job.

All I had to do was run. Yeah. Like they were like, go run. I had this incredible team. I had my partner, Jesse Gabriel. I had Emily Halanin. And then I had my best friend, Michelle. And then my parents showed up.

Oh, nice. I had this, like, I had the easy part. And like, all I did was come in, tell them my problems. They fixed me. And then I went and ran again. And how, so tell me how did it go. I mean, was it every clip I saw of you, you were like, you know, doing this and laughing or, you know, it seemed like you had a great time the whole time. Yeah.

When did it hurt? It had to hurt at some point, right? Yeah, I had some bad laps. My biggest thing, like, I think going into it, right, I had enough success on the track that I didn't want to go into the 100-miler and be a joke. Yeah. Like that was what I was really concerned about was like, I think I can run. Yeah. I think I can.

But I didn't want it to turn into like, hey, I went out there. I made it 40 miles and then I dropped out. Right. Like I didn't want to do that. I really, I took it serious. I trained pretty well. You trained hard. I thought you trained hard.

I mean, you were hammering this hill. I ran out a lot. I felt like that was like hills are easy on you. It's low impact. And volume wise, it takes. a little time and I really needed lower leg strength. The thing that I didn't have going into the 100 was actual strength to get my body to move really well for potentially 24 hours.

Yeah. I'd never done anything like that. Yeah. Yeah. And what did you learn during that time? That I have a lot to learn. Yeah. How was the, did nutrition and all that were you feeling pretty good?

Was your stomach okay? No. I had made a, so I went in. I was like, okay. I have noon on this side. I have water on this side. I have some gels. Like, I'm sad.

Yeah. Every lap I'm going to eat five gels. And I'm going to drink this noon. And I came in, I think on the second lap. And Emily's like, you got to take more gel. And I was like, don't worry. I'm drinking noon. She's like, noon doesn't have any calories.

Right. I'm like, what do you mean? It doesn't have any calories. She's like, it has like three calories. Yeah. And that was totally new to me. Like, I didn't do any research. I just went out there and I was like, I think I can do this.

That was kind of my big mistake. At that point, I had put myself on a hole. I didn't take enough nutrition. I thought I was, but I wasn't. So there was basically two big aid stations. And from one aid station to the next, it was like basically four miles. And when I left the aid station, I couldn't see. Like my vision went really bad.

Oh, really? The sun had come up training here in Eugene. like the sun isn't that big a factor, especially when you're out in the Douglas firs. They have the big canopies, you're mostly in the shade. Only when you're on top of the spenzers, are you actually in the sun? Then you duck back into the shade.

But for, you know, 12 miles, for almost all day, I was out in the sun. When the sun came up, my eyes went to shit. Were you wearing glasses? I was, yeah. Evil eye, I have a sponsorship, and they're amazing sunglasses. But it was lack of nutrition.

Yeah. And I was exhausted. and my eyes just went to like this tunnel vision. And I came in and I was like, I can't see much. And they're like, how bad's your vision? I was like, it's blurry. I can keep her on it. I'll be fine.

And they're like, what have you ate? And that's where we got to the nutrition thing. And Emily's like, you're an idiot. And. Because your body will, it'll like save the calories for, to keep it alive. Yeah. It doesn't really need eyes to, you know. It needs your organs need to be whatever, like, I don't know, fueled.

And so, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's, That's kind of, isn't that crazy? That's kind of one of the things you learn when you've so depleted. Yeah. So I guess for you, it's vision. Yeah, I didn't need it. So then I was like trying to figure out what I could eat. Nothing was sitting well.

And then it was like, Emily handed me a cup of broth. And I was like, okay, I can drink broth. Yeah. Broth is easy. So I started chugging cups of broth. And the next lap went really well. He was like, okay, we're back. Yeah.

Like we problem solved that one. Yeah. The next big problem came up was like my feet blew up. We had across these creeks and it was super muddy. So your feet were basically wet the entire day. Yeah. And at some point I started getting really bad blood, like blood blisters on all my toes. Yeah.

It was mostly, I think, the mud that got into your sock. And it just was chafed. Yeah. It's just a lot of moisture going on. Right. And my feet blew up. And I had like... That's different than track.

The track for sure. Yeah. Because you would never deal with it, right? Either it's going to be catastrophic and you're going to drop out or you're just not put that outside of your brain you're going to deal with it after the race right but you're never going to take off your shoe and like start ripping blisters to get your foot back in your shoe and be like okay i got to get to the aid station and feet swell after hours too do so that's sometimes that's what causes those toes for everybody's their their shoes used to fit yeah but then they got their feet swell

and then their toes are jammed in the front yeah so i switched shoes i went to size up um halfway through which saved me. Yeah, good. But again, like my team did everything. Yeah. Like, I just had to do the running, which is the easy part. That's what, you know, Courtney DeWalter kind of has that same attitude. She loves the problem solving of a long race because it's going to be something.

Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, and on the next race, maybe it'll be something else for you. Yeah. But it's like that's part of those long ultras is like there's problem solving the whole time. Yeah. But yeah, it's like normally, once you. fall behind on hydration or calories, because you're still burning the whole time, it was really hard to catch back up.

Yeah. And so that was good that you caught back up. Maybe you weren't in like a huge hole because if that broth helped, I don't know. But did it get tough for other reasons later? It got tough. The sun, I hate the sun. I'm not a sun guy. That was tough.

but Emily was able to jump in once we got to basically 65 miles. I think it was like 62. She ran the last 40 basically with me. Did that help? It did. And what really helped was we were kind of in like second and third the whole race. It was like this John guy and I kept going back and forth. He was a really good dissender.

I'd catch him on the flats. He'd catch me on the descent. And we kept coming into the aid stations right around the same time. and I hadn't seen first for a long time and then at some point it was like hey we're moving good and then like it was like telephone on the trail they're like hey you're 90 minutes back

I can do that yeah I can do that I can fucking rage for a while and for three hours Emily and I just went it was like okay we're still in this fight let's do this and for three hours we ran as hard as we could it was it was calculer And that was one of the best times I had out on the trail.

And it wasn't until we got to the last aid station with four miles. And it was like, hey, he's 40 minutes ahead. And it was like, you're not going to catch him. So for four miles, we kind of did like a little victory lap. Yeah. Hey, you made it. Yeah. And that was a blast.

But like really, once we got into that competitive mind of like, hey, we're going into the dark. And I was like, I can own the dark. can do this. Yeah. It was a blast. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah.

So who won it? Heath, I'm a blanket on his last name. Yeah. He had run some really fast 100 miles before. Really? And from everything I heard was like he was super efficient. Yeah. He knew what to do.

He came into the aid station and it was like a machine. And he ran an awesome race. So in the 18s or 17s? I think he was like 18, low 18. He was like 40, 50 minutes ahead of me at the finish. Yeah. So. But so you were under 19.

Yeah. You're 1859, right? Yeah. First 100 mile or that's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah.

I was so pumped. I was just like sending message or I mean, like commenting. I knew you weren't doing your phone. But I was like, man, it was just so fun to keep track of you. And because I knew how, I mean, how long. did you train for this race? Pretty much January 1st. I had done one run with a friend named Matt Barnhart,

who's done a lot of ultra stuff. And him and I went out to Lowell to do this like 30-mile loop. Yeah. And I was like, I can do it 30 miles. This is like the mediocre man in me who's like, ah, if he can do it, I can do it. And it was my first long trail run. And we got 15 miles into this.

And we had to do these switchbacks, you know, tight switchbacks descending. Yeah. And I got like halfway through the switchbacks. And Matt was almost at the bottom. And I was like crying. I was like, I can't do this. And I was like, I don't know what I'm going to tell Matt.

Like I don't want to be, I don't want to like put out of a risk. We're way out here in the woods. Yeah. I was like, hey, Matt, like just give me a sack. Like I got a time issue. I'll catch you up. And I was like, I'm not feeling great. And he was so cool about it.

He's like, it's just not a great day. I'm not feeling great either. Okay. And we got to this logging row. and we could see on the map, it was like, we got 10 miles back of trail. And it was like, okay, the logging road goes out to a main road. Maybe we can hitchhike back.

And I didn't want to say it in my head. I was like, hey, maybe we'd take the logging road down. I was like, yeah, that's a great idea. And he was super cool about it. And after that run, that was like mid-December. I took like three weeks off. And I was contemplating my entire existence. I was like, I don't think I can run.

I don't think I'm made for the trails. You're going to go get a job at Albertsons or something. Exactly. Yeah. But so you made it through that run and took three weeks off. I didn't make it through. We had a hitchhike and a logger picked us up. We sat in the back of a truck like in the bed and he drove us back and like Matt was super cool.

The logger guy was super cool. Let it make you feel like a quitter. No, it was like, oh, and like, I don't know, it was, it was a rough first, first introduction to trail. And then after you took a three-week hiatus question your life. Yeah, I got really into the gym. I was like, okay, I'm lacking strength. Like, that was super key to me. Like, just.

How did you know that? The descent. The descent was like everything was just on fire. Okay. Like my quads, my calves, everything just couldn't handle the pounding of going. down and I knew right away I just wasn't strong enough right it's like it's very easy like if you put too much weight on a bench yeah you can't do it it's the same way as descending like I don't have enough strength yeah to get myself physically down this hill without walking I see and I was like okay well

I got to get stronger so I did a bunch of gym stuff I gained a little bit of weight and then I was like let's just run let's run one it was when PISCA was still open I was like okay let's do some Piscca runs let's get stronger. And once Pista closed, I was like, I'm going to spend every day just running up and down Spencers. That's all I'm going to do. And that's all you did.

Yeah, I did 63 of them before the end of going into this race. 63 summits from the Martin Street down there? Yeah. Yeah. So that's, and you would do up Spencer's over to Baldi, then back down. Sometimes, or I'd just go back up and down. Oh, I see.

I was really like calculated. I'm like, okay, I'm going to push this section. I'm going to power height this section. I'm going to run hard this section. And then I'm going to work on descents. Yeah. So every day I went out with a new flavor of like, what am I going to try at Concord today? Well, I know that the one time we ran, I don't know how many times.

But anyway, no, no, no. I asked you what was your time. That's what it was. And you said, if you can get 30 minutes from the bottom to the summit, that was good. And I was just like, okay, so that I tried to do that. Thank you. How'd it go? I'm definitely, you're a better runner than me.

So news flash. We all have our strengths. News flash. Yeah, I was dying. I think, I don't know what I got. I didn't get 30 minutes. I mean, I was in the 30s. Thank you.

Yeah, I thought, holy, you know, because when I see you run, it looks so easy. You know how there's times when you run and you're like, you feel like Godzilla walking, just like, Well, you're the opposite of that. You seem light on your feet and just like, just springy. And I'm very envious watching you run. So it's a, I was, yeah, that's not me. I'm old and slow.

That's me too. Anyways, it was a good, it was a good goal to try to get 30 minutes going up there. But yeah, I mean, what a good experience. So you did 63 summons from January 1st to March, to March. To march, yeah. And did your legs feel strong in the race? Yeah, yeah. Body-wise, it felt really well.

Really? Yeah. And so you feel like all that summoning and descending really enhanced the strength of your quads and that support system coming down. Yeah, and really start callousing my feet, like you said. Yeah, like just going down and just having your feet just jam into the front of your shoes was something that I had to get used to.

Yeah. It was a lot of like learning curve of like what do I need to? to do so that we're not 40, 50 miles in, and there being a, you know. Yeah, big issue. Big issue. Yeah. So how did you, I know before, like I went over to Run Hub, we got a friend over there, Ethan Hardacre who works, and he trained with you quite a bit.

But he said, we're talking about you running the race, and he said, yeah, Ben says he's going to go out and last of the 100. And I was just like, well, last place takes off walking. because it's a long for some people the goal is just finished yeah and that's that's great and that's the hardest way to do it oh oh yes i mean you're gonna be out there a while yeah so but there's some people and i don't know if they did but they start that that gun goes off they start walking yeah because they know it's going to be a grind yeah and so how'd you obviously you didn't start off last no i was really concerned of like going out too fast yeah and but you felt comfortable and

yeah i felt pretty good I think the whole way. Like, I don't want to say, like, it was easy by any means. It wasn't. But I felt good for a while. That's good. Yeah. Like, again, I think I could go back to the idea that, like, I had the easiest job.

Yeah. Like, if I didn't have my team, I would not have had success. Right. It all came back to, like, my team fundamentally held me up. That's nice. Yeah. Good to have. It's very bougie.

It's very bougie. Yeah, let me think. My first, yeah, I did a. The Bigfoot 100, and I didn't have anybody, you know, is terrible. It took me 29 hours. I think I took my son back there, and Tanner, he was like, I don't know, maybe 15 or 16 at the time. And I just left him at the hotel. And I said, I'm going to go run 100 miles.

I'll see it at the end. And he walked down and walked five miles up. So he met me a mile 95. And then we ran the last five miles together. But yeah, a team makes a huge difference because then I've had my brother, Taylor, Spike, he's paced me. And it's just, it's not a day different. You have to have somebody there to help, even if just talk through things, you know, and just say, hey, what do you think about this? Or a good crew, probably like what you had, would say, okay, here's what you do.

Because you can't figure shit out, usually on your own. You're so stupid. You're making terrible life decisions out there. Exactly. Yeah. So you need that. And I mean, I'm impressed. I mean, you work so hard, but even the best in the world like Courtney DeWalter, her first hundred, she quit at mile 60. Because she was like, this just hurts. Something's wrong. I'm hurting too bad.

But then she realized, oh, that's just part of these. That's the thing. Yeah. It hurts. It hurts for like a long time in those races. Yeah. And you got to. I think the big thing is like I'm 35.

I spent my entire life in the running world. I've had the luxury of not having to have a job outside of running. Right. Like I do a lot of things outside of running, but they're all running related. Right. So I think coming into a hundred mile, I've had, you know, 10 years plus of 100 miles weeks. Right. Of like good running behind me. If I was 20 going into my first 100, I would make terrible mistakes and drop out within the first eight miles.

Yeah. But having come to it at this age with this much background, I feel like I had a lot of events. You're wise, too. And dumb. Dumb is better than wise. Yeah, but you do have, you know, decades of running. It's not like you're out there trying to play tennis or play football. Oh, no.

No, you're doing what you do. Yeah. Like you're a runner. So, yeah, it's the transition makes sense. Yeah. It's just, you know, bigger playing field, I guess. But, yeah, I mean, so you said, what's that race you mentioned? Grand Traverse.

And when is that? Uh, it's like mid-August. Where is it? It goes from Aspen to Crestabute. It'll be a really technical race. Really? How far is it? 40 miles.

So it'd be shorter. Okay. Yeah, probably got a bunch of climbing. Yeah. And I'm excited for that. Yeah. I think in between there, I'm going to go help. A guy I actually met on the trail.

Him and I ran a couple loops together. His name's John. He's from Quebec, Canada. And we got through the first lap. And I was like, I feel like we're going pretty slow. And he's like, it's never slow enough, man. And that was true. And that was at the race you just did?

Yeah, it was at the race we first did, or this last weekend. Yeah. He's going to run Kokadona, the 250 from Phoenix up to Flagstaff. Right. And I feel like that's kind of my origin. My origin is like I started in Phoenix. I started my running career really in Phoenix. And I spent years up in Flag.

And I feel like maybe at some point I'd like to do that. that race. I think 250 sounds like a really fun adventure. So I'm going to go down there and help him. Oh, you are? Yeah. Okay. Help pace or crew or everything. Yeah. Good. How did he do in the 100? He was third. Oh, okay. Yeah. He ran really well. Oh, man. Yeah. And what was his time? Do you remember? I don't. The results just came up. They finally fixed the results. Yeah. But to get third, that's a good run. Yeah. Definitely a good run. And it's a stepping stone for him. I feel like he was like, doing this. I was like, it's a stepping stone. That's insane. Oh, yeah, the 100 is just a warm up for the 250. Yeah, exactly. I know. I want to do that race too, that Coco don't know. I mean,

Taylor, my brother's done it. There you go. Yeah. It's gruesome. Yeah, looks tough. And I've spent summers in Phoenix and I, it's not a place that humans should exist. I saw that, you know, Sally McCray, she, she came and did the podcast too and we trained, but I, I'm I'm trying to think. Did she win it? She won that one. Yeah. She's a stud.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's cool. It's just like how, you know, on the track, maybe some of these elite ultra runners wouldn't probably wouldn't be great. But man, when it comes to just grinding for days, it's incredible how tough some of these people are. It's incredible.

Yeah, it's inspiring. But yeah, so you'll go paste that. And then so you do have eyes on. Doing a 200-mile race. I think so. Yeah. Well, that's exciting. Yeah.

What I want to do is there's so many races I feel like out there that, like, want to make you miserable for no reason. I don't want to do races that are like miserable for no reason. I want to like push myself in a performance standpoint. Yeah. Like I want to get better at the 100 so I can run faster. Yeah. I want to be able to run the whole thing. Right.

And it's like, how fast can we do it? Race the whole thing. Exactly. Surviving for half of it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I want to move from like, hey, we're, we're surviving, we're having fun to like, how do I come to an aid station and like look like Rachel Drake when she won Black Canyons?

Yeah. Like you come in and it's like a Formula One pit spot. They're like, here's your gels, here's this up. Go. Yeah. That's what I want to. Versus like, I was like, oh, a cup of broth sounds good. Ooh, some Oreos.

I'm still waiting for that experience myself. I've done a lot of them, but I still have. haven't been able to just run hard. Yeah. I don't know. I probably haven't just put in the miles. So what's your, what do you think it'll take? Just more experience, more miles, or what do you think is the key to being able to race 100?

I think it's kind of a combination of everything. Yeah. Definitely more experience. It's, it's, I think, I kind of want to have fun. And the pressure, I had talked to a couple people and it was like, it was too much information. I was like, I don't need to know how much sweat I'm sweating. Like, I don't need to do that profile. I don't, like, that's just too much information.

That's when I make it feel overwhelming. So for me, it was very much of like, let's get my body ready so they can tackle the distance. That's the first challenge. And now I think it's like, okay, nutrition seems to be a tough one for me. So it's breaking it down and not making it this overwhelming process. Because I do think, like when I talk to, anybody going into something new

I think they get overwhelmed and then it becomes this Everest of like all the stuff they need to acquire and then they're like they're so bogged down and junk that they've forgotten what they're actually trying to do and for me it was like let's just run 100 miles let's make it as simple as possible

even if we go out there and we just run, walk some of it that's what I need to do my first time I don't need to worry about having the best headlamp or the best vest. I just need to go out there and do it. Yeah, that's, you know, it's, there's a parallel with bow hunting. I bet. People, there's so much that can, to know or to learn or to think about when it comes

to killing an animal with the arrow. Yeah. But the basics is just get a bow and shoot. Yeah. All that other shit. Yeah. You're going to have to get to it. You don't need to worry about it right now.

Yeah. Yeah. Just get your bow. Fire some arrows every day. that repetition in. So that's kind of where you're at. Yeah. It's just like, just, hey, just let's just get started here, build that base. Yeah. I'm standing in the driveway shooting arrows. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we're not in the mountains killing big bulls yet. But so, oh, yeah, I was thinking on your training, did you have a, I know you said you just ran up and down the mountain, but

yeah, what roughly was your miles? And did you have a goal for, for climbing per week? Yeah. For gain? What was your program? Because I know track guys, every, track guy or girl has they're usually like pretty regiment yeah they're dialed in and i think for the for the longest time in track i've really dialed in like i'm going to do this to do this to do this and i think here it was like i generally want to run 120 miles off six days kind of what i want to do i want to put in a good four-week block of work and really what i wanted to do out of it was i want back-to-back big days so 20 miles a day roughly yeah it was your goal yep and then you're back-to-back big We're like 30 and 30 or 25, 25 or something.

I wanted those back-to-back days to give me confidence that I could wake up a little sore and still go out and run. And that's what you did that for how long? Like, I don't know, four weeks basically. Right. And so you're able to get and then you take a day off and recover. Okay. So 20 miles a day, six days a week. It's easy.

What about, I don't know about easy. So what about the climb? I really was just like, let's, every, every loop is done to be an official summit. So I was going to go back to Margin Street, eat. That was like my biggest thing. Like, let's go back to Martin Street. Let's eat some food. See how we feel going back up.

And I just kept doing that progression. And what's a climb from Martin to the summit? It's like 1,400 feet. Okay. So a lot of days, I don't think I had any days other than the Everest challenge over 10K. I always kind of went out thinking like if I can get around 10K and I think it always ended up being like 8,500. Because like the way to get 20 miles in is like a few summits

and then like a baldy loop. Yeah. And that baldy loop kills you if you want to do 10K. Yeah. Because you have to commit to going all the way back up. And then you'd be like 24 miles and it was like, I don't want to be at 24. That's a lot of, dude, 10K a day climbing. Yeah.

That's, I mean, so that's, that's a day. difference is most people, their bodies wouldn't allow them to do that. Yeah. You know, I mean, even if they wanted to, that's a lot to ask of your body. So you having that decades of running base built up, yeah, had to help. And you're, you know, are you 160 now, you said? Yeah, roughly. Yeah. So you're, you know, fairly light still. Yeah. I mean, not for a track. I'm 20 pounds than I'm a lot. Yeah, not for a track athlete. But for, that's like a perfect weight for, because you need that muscle to run mountains. Yeah. And you need the dirt. The durability.

The durability, yeah. On the track, you don't need much durability. Right. It's all about as light as you can get because your engine has to push whatever weight your is on the chassis. Yeah. And so the lighter that can be, the more efficient your engine is. But in the mountains.

To some degree, right? Yeah. You have to balance the power to weight ratio. Because if you go too far one way, you lose all your power. And then you're just feeble. Do they, is there a, I mean, I know they've done that on the bikes. bikes like i remember lance had been there in like 500 watts or whatever it was do they do that power to weight ratio for running too i'm not that smart no you don't know if they i don't know i was

just curious if they would say well here's how you run here's your weight here's this calculation if you could take off a pound you'd be whatever but you know it's i know there's been a big thing and track with a body shaming and things like that but it's a brutal sport right i think right now there's a big discussion about women's eating disorder. And that conversation has been around for a long time. Those same issues exist on the men's side. Nobody's talking about it. Oh, is that right?

That's what I'm curious. Yeah. Yeah. I think even for me, I get stuck in this. And the one thing that I did really well this time was I came off the marathon pretty broken. I didn't feel good. Nothing was going very well.

I had done the marathon buildup, I think, three times. Oh, wait. So you didn't tell us about the marathon? Yeah. I ran one crappy marathon. I was like, this wasn't that much fun. I don't really like it. Actually, it wasn't crappy, though. It was pretty crappy, though. I ran like 2.16. And it wasn't a bad debut. But that's Olympic trials standard. Yeah. But like my goals in my head was like, I need to kind of crush it so I can like go to the trials and be competitive. That's all I cared about. So you were hoping to get what a two? I wanted to be, I think if I could have run like 2.13-ish.

And really, I knew, in my heart, I probably knew that I wasn't going to run that on my first one. I knew that. And every time I kept training to run faster, I kept getting hurt. And I had like two years of like this really crappy build of like get into the heart of it, getting hurt. Getting into the heart of it, getting hurt.

And then eventually it was like, I just got to get to the fucking start line. Yeah. Let's get to the fucking start line. one of these done. And I did that. I did that in October. And it was like, I'm not going to be competitive to trials.

Was that just this past October? Yeah. Oh, whoa. Yeah. That was recent. Yeah. Where was a marathon? It was outside of New York.

Okay. They put on this a very, it was called the micro marathon. And there was a lot of us just trying to run the Olympic trial standard. Right. And it took a very conservative approach. And I was like, I want to get through half of it, feeling pretty good, and then see what we can do. and it went okay. It just wasn't very fun.

It's not fun when you're not competitive, at least from where I stand. Right, I understand. It was like, okay, I can run the marathon. Okay, right. Let's go do something else. For me, I'm just trying to finish it. But I get what you're saying.

Yeah, so that the marathon didn't go. It wasn't fun. It wasn't that fun. But were you going to tie that into like your diet because we were talking about that eating stuff? Yeah. Yeah. So I came off the marathon like.

thin and kind of broken. Yeah. And I wasn't moving very well. And you were 20 pounds lighter? It was like 140-ish going into the marathon, probably a little lighter. Really? So to what we were talking about before, were you thinking a lot about how much you weighed and like you would be more, you'd be faster if you were lighter?

I don't think, I think at that point in my career, it was so ingrained that like you're going to get to the championship season and you're going to start losing weight, right? it just kind of naturally comes off. Because the workload. Workload and intensity goes off. Exactly. Yeah. And you start kind of shaving off weight.

And some of it is like you kind of learn to do that. Hmm. But it's not the healthiest. And I spent- What do you mean, learn how? Or expect it or what do you mean? Yeah, I think you learn it in the sense of like, you're now doing a bunch of doubles.

There's just no way you're going to eat enough food and be able to do the sessions you need do and still feel good. And I think you kind of learn to kind of be in this calorie deficient point. And really, when you're two weeks out from a major championship, you're just trying to hold it together. Yeah. You're just like every day, you're like, I've got to hold this shit together.

Like, I'm one step away from ruining this opportunity. Let's just hold it together. And it's a constant fight, right? And I think the thing that I did terribly was that I never left the season and been like, I want to recharge, I want to gain weight, I want to stop. running. I want to go into the gym. And really what I should have done was like go do pliles, become a better athlete. And I never did that. I was like, I'm just going to go run more. I'm going to go do some long runs. I'm going to go enjoy some runs. And that was dumb.

Did, uh, so did you have a coach? Yeah. And, and, and I, I just say like I was sounding board. Yeah. Oh, right. Yeah. So I wonder. Yeah. I mean, that does seem. And they all gave me great advice. I just never listened. Oh. Okay, so they were they saying like to take a break and to put on some weight? Yeah, John was always saying that. And I was like, whatever, John. You'll fix me when I'm broken. He's like, fuck you, man.

So you were just going, hey, work got me here. I just need to work harder. Exactly. And instead of like looking at it. That was like plateaus. Right. And like, hey, I've done tons of work. Let's take a little break.

Let's chill out. It's so hard, though. It's hard. I mean, I, I, totally get that mindset. Yeah. I never, it's always like more, more, more. Oh, I did 100 miles last week. Let's do 110 this week. Yeah. And yeah, I get it. But it's all, okay, so that is self-destructive. Yeah. Oh, totally. It's a very toxic trait. But it's also what got you to the dance. Yeah. It's a tough balance. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. That's, I don't know. I mean, I can't imagine,

but I know just knowing my personality, I would be probably making the same mistakes you would. Just because like, I mean, my thing, I even said I joke around, like I remember I said on Rogan once, but I just said rest days are for pussies. And it's just like, you know, that's from just a normal dipshit, an Olympic athlete.

No, I'm the normal, I'm the normal dumbass too. But it's just like you have to take, you know, and I, you know, I've talked to. Emma a lot about it because she's like a big sleeper. Yeah. Which I'm like, yeah. I mean, for you, of course, it has to be science related. Yeah.

For me, I just got to work. I mean, I just got to keep working. So like it's different. It sounds like your mindset was more like the normal dips shit like me mindset. Whereas, man, I would even perform better. I'm sure if I was smarter about it, you know, but man, that's tough. Yeah. That's tough.

I don't know. No, it's a, it's a very, it's a, I think the hardest part about being in it is being confident that like you've done enough. I think a lot of us come into it and be like, we have to do these little things to get better. Like, where's my edge? Yeah. And my edge is that like I'm going to do those small things that nobody else is doing. Yeah. And usually those small things just add to distractions.

Yeah, here's what, you know, like I ran yesterday. and I well no we did some photos up on Spencer's last night but I ran from here to the house my legs were just freaking dead yeah dead the whole every step and I'd just run a little while then I'd start to walk and I'd just be like god and so I was thinking about you know we got the Eugene marathon it's coming I yeah oh I think I got an altar before that I'm gonna do but my problem is I never feel like I'm ready yeah so I'm always putting in getting in two getting in too many miles too close to the race. Yeah.

And then go into the race. Exhausted. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like that is so hard to. So when you said you never felt like you did enough, that's how I feel all the time. And then when it comes to time to perform when it matters, you know, pop in the legs. Yeah.

That's, I mean, is that kind of, did you ever have races like that where you were like, God, did I push too hard or? I was hurt most of my career. So yeah. Yeah. When did you, so when did it become okay to like, I need to be a little heavier? Is that when you said, okay, I'm going to be done with this marathon thing? Yeah.

Is that when? I don't know if I thought about it that way. I think like the biggest thing for me now is like trying to understand the mistakes I've made. Like taking a really thoughtful approach, one that I don't think I gave myself that opportunity in my track career. is now like, hey, what do we really need to do to become a better athlete and looking at it as a lens of an athlete versus like a runner? So now it's like working with Jimmy Radcliffe, who's strength and conditioning coach here at UO and becoming a better athlete.

I want to be able to move side to side. I want to be able to run. I want to be able to sprint. I want to be able to be more explosive. And I should have worried about all those things in my running career, but I just felt like right now what do I need I need to run more right I just I'm too overwhelmed by everything else and the one thing that's going well for me is running so let's keep running yeah but I wish I would have taken a better approach I just felt like I was always in the heart of it and I didn't

want to change things yeah yeah I mean if you've had success why change everything but like when you think about it now and how do you feel now I mean not after the hundred mile or but before that Were you feeling like as good as you've ever felt or? Yeah, I think to some degree. I took a huge risk. I think like it was a calculated huge risk that like I need, this is what I need to do to have success at the 100 miles. And for somehow my body held up to it.

It could have easily gone the other way. Yeah. I could have come up. I could have been like the lady. I could have been coming off one of the stairs at Spencer's fallen. And that could have been, you know, my year. Yeah. You know, I was lucky that like nothing like that happened and I made it through.

But like it was a very calculated decision that like this is a huge risk reward. And we made it. I would not tell anybody else to do that. That would not be my approach. Like if somebody came to me and they're like, I want to run an ultra, I'd be like, don't do it this way. I promise, this is awful. How come? Why do you say that?

Because I think every day it was like I'm one mile away from getting hurt. Oh, you're just pushing so hard. Every day, I didn't have that long. I had essentially eight weeks to fit ultra training into. Yeah, that is, that's a short, yeah, short window for sure. So you, you, you even, it's a different type of challenge for your body, but you still pushed right to the limit on this preparation. Every day.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that is. Because that's where the fun is. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I love, I mean, I don't know, I'm not, I don't even wear a watch, but I do like seeing what I did for the day. It's like that little like, okay. Yeah.

Check the box. Yeah. I got my work done. It's so stupid. Like the Strava line that like we all think about is like, oh, I got to get to this stupid arbitrary mark of 100 miles, 80 mile, whatever that mark is per week. It's arbitrary. It doesn't matter.

It doesn't. But we've, we do it. How do you think like you've, you've, your training was so different. How do you think you'd run on the track right now? Terribly. I mean, not today because you're a few days after 100. I don't know. So Nick Willis was somebody that I had the opportunity to overlap with.

He's probably one of the most decorated middle distance runners of this time. Yeah. And he broke four at 40. And I stand in my shower often. And I think, how did that motherfucker do that? How did he break four at 40? Yeah. How I feel at 34 is not.

I'm going to break four. I ran a good mile last summer. You know, less than a year ago, I ran a decent mile. Yeah. So now, sometimes in the back of my head,

when I'm out on the trail and it's getting dark, I think, fuck, I'm going to break four at 40. I'm going to drive up to the Dempsey, up in Seattle. I'm going to stand on the star line with 20-year-olds

and say, I'm going to fucking break four. Yeah. Maybe I'll do it. I don't know. I think he, well, are you 34,

35, 35, uh, 34, Oh. I got six years. Yeah. And that's a long six years.

What was you said you ran a good mile. What was it? I ran a road mile competitively. I ran really well. Like I pushed from the front with like 1,200 meters to go or 400 meters to go. And we ran like 402 or 403. It was a road mile. Yeah.

I think at that time I was much more like I'm doing track stuff. Like I'm still eating it. Hmm. Can I run a bunch of 250, 100 mile races, you know, get myself into the heart of ultra running and then at 40 you be like, you know what? I need like six months of hard mile training to break four. Maybe. I think you can do it.

I believe in, yeah. Well, that makes one of us. Yeah, it's, I don't know. Yeah, I was just curious, like, because you have, your legs are stronger, your body's more durable. But I'm slow. Yeah, I think you're slower. Yeah. Just because of that weight or what?

No, I don't, I think it's just like stride pattern has to change, right? Yeah, yeah. Because it's like stride length is probably so important. Also, like at 60 miles, I'm not lifting my knees anymore, right? Yeah, like I'm kind of doing this shuffly, crappy stride. Yeah. Were you thinking about running for him during the 100? Sometimes.

Sometimes, especially at the end, I was like, you've got to lift your knees. I only fell once at like 90 miles. Fell. I fell. Tripped. Yeah. And we were like having a blast. Emily was like,

we were just like in it. And I went to take my last, I was at like 39 gels for the day. And it was like my last gel. And they're hard to get down at that hole. Oh, I hate gels. You're like, get them halfway in your mouth and you want to throw them up.

And I was like, and I kind of do this like little shoot thing. It's like, okay, as fast as I can get it in. Shotgun it. Exactly. Exactly. And I kicked this rock and I fell and I like smashed into these rocks. And Emily's like, great fall.

Get up and run. I was like, okay, great. We're still in this. She's tough as hell. She's extremely tough. I'm like, I don't know. And maybe you've seen this. I don't more women work so much harder than guys.

I think so. There's no questions about it. Way tougher. Way bigger badasses. Like if it was me by myself, I would have just like kind of laid there. for a little while and felt bad for myself and been like, okay, I'll walk it off, I guess. And Emily was like, get up.

You fell great. And I was like, yeah, I did. Okay. Yeah, she's a badass. She's done hard rock a number of times. Number of times. Yeah. And then she holds the PCT record across Oregon, fastest, fastest time.

And like, it's unbelievable. Yeah, definitely tougher than me. Yeah. And really, I met her out on the trail one day, super awkward. I was like, oh, you run, I run. That's cool. And she's been this incredible mentor for the last couple months. Like, just incredible mentor and was like, hey, here's the things we really need to do to have success here.

Why she felt pity on me? I don't know. But it's been amazing. It seems like a reoccurring theme. Why do all these people care about Ben? I don't know. It's a good question. And truly, that, like, if I was to say there's one reason I've had success,

it's these few people. John Ball, Jess Gabriel, my partner, Emily. There's reoccurring themes of people who have been in my life who have got me to where I am. I've always had the easiest part of like, hey, I'm just going to go out there and have the fun part, and you guys are going to fix everything else. So, hmm, why do you think you've been so lucky? I don't know. It's a good question.

It must be your personality, just like you're, I don't know. I'm like a stray dog that like shows up at the restaurant. and they're like, ah, it's that same dog. We'll give it the leftovers. I don't know, but whatever. Just keep doing it. Yeah. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. That's, I know, Emily, she's impressive. And she's, I saw she's doing like, has a book coming out maybe. Yeah. So she's doing something to the G. Marathon. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty cool.

I mean, but yeah, it's, it was, it was so exciting to follow your journey into the ultra scene. And I've, I've been a big, been. Lincoln Chip fan forever. I like the your writing and your captions and some of the other stuff that I read that you've written. It's like have you always been a good writer? No, I'm a good. So my partner is a good writer and she understands me. I think like if if I wrote something down, like I will say like school was not my thing. I struggled with school. I still struggle. I have so I coach Big Timber Running Club and we have one email, sometimes two emails a week, but really one email.

And that's the hardest part of my week. I have to write this stupid email. And I struggle with it. Like putting words on a page is not my thing. And then I don't know. I can write it. Yeah. But Jess can like interpret it.

So she can help me edit it. Like it's really helpful. Otherwise it would be like garbly goop on a page. So she really like kind of helps me like make sure it makes sense. Oh, I'm still struggling with there, there, there. You know, there's, I don't understand which one to use. What about 2-2-2? I don't know those.

That's awesome. Yeah, I don't know. I just think that you got the, I mean, if I think about it, it's like the best ultra runners I know are like these free spirit type people. Because if I think of Courtney, Sally, Kat Bradley, it's just like you, it feels like you have that same. That's whatever. I mean, that's what it takes. It's just that attitude.

because it's not struck ultras aren't structured they're not like the track yeah it's just like it seems like you were built for like this this more free type experience yeah that ultras offer i mean we'll see yeah we'll see i think like my big thing is that like i just love challenges yeah i think we build things into too big they become overwhelming it's like just go out there and fucking do it can't be that hard yeah i would you'd mention earlier when we're talking about like the weight and all that, that men have the eating disorder thing too is like, but nobody talks about it.

Like what is, like what do you mean? I think we lose a lot of great athletes on the men's side to issues that we don't talk about. I think eating disorder is one of them. I think I've stood in many call rooms across my time. Yeah. That eating disorders is what keeps great. athletes, much better athletes than myself from competing.

Huh. Yeah. I mean, so what's the answer to that? Because, you know, I did, I don't want to say, you know, I said something like body shaming or whatever. If you got extra fat, I mean, I don't want to seem insensitive or whatever. But it's like the weight is a big part of being a runner. But being healthy is the hard part.

Right. So that's like, yeah, I mean, I think, I know there was an athlete, a woman athlete that was kind of at the center. of that thing with I think Alberto and all that but it's like I understand her point for sure but also on the other spectrum

I understand like a coach bringing it up also so how do you talk about it? I don't know I am not smart enough to answer those questions but I know I know a lot of issues exist inside this sport

and they exist on men and women's side and I think I fall into it, right? Like I have those toxic traits of like, hey, I'm not going to cry. I'm a guy. I grew up in the 90s, right? It was like, walk it off. Okay, great.

So I think we fall into those like those same habits, especially on the guy's side, where they're not that big a deal. But really, I think they take a lot of great talent out of the sport. Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, if you're too light, not getting enough. nutrition plus pushing hard yeah it's going to be so you're saying injuries are what keep people off from performing their best because they're not getting what they need diet wise but and they're still pushing so hard yeah i think there's a lot of other things right like Michael philbs is a great example of

that like how so like mental side oh yeah mental side is really tough right yeah so just not just kind of like being tough not talking about like hey i'll deal with this yeah yeah and so you you think that People would benefit just by being more honest about how they feel and addressing issues. Yeah, I mean, I do, I understand what you're saying. I mean, I always relate it back to what I do. I know if you take personal issues or you're having, I don't know, if you're just struggling with things into the mountains by yourself, it's not getting any better. You're going to sit there and obsess about it.

Yeah. So I understand how your mind is such a power. powerful tool, but also can kill you. Yeah. You know, I mean, so yeah, just dealing with it, but, you know, it's so hard to say, how do you deal with, I guess, talking about it as a first step, right? Yeah. And I don't have those answers.

You told me a quote when we're out running because I said, what's the hardest part of bow hunting? You said it's being out there by yourself. Yeah. I've thought about that a ton, right? And I think ultra running is a little similar to that. And I also think, like, earlier in this conversation, So what was really tough about that 1500. You have to do it by yourself.

Yeah. You have to run 1,500 meters by yourself. Right. And you're the only person that can make the good decisions. Right. That's a lot of pressure. That is. Especially when you don't make good decisions.

Yeah, that is. I mean, yeah, I think we've focused so much on the physical. Yeah. And, man, where our heads at. Yeah. It has to be just as important. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking, you know, on that your old, your first ultra having that aid station every 12 miles or the two big ones.

Yeah. That is a big difference. Like as I mentioned that big horn 100, I remember normally in an ultra, you're by yourself. Yeah. I was by myself from midnight till six in the morning and just hurting from mile 50 to I don't know where I got mile 82 maybe by six. And is that what it was? So six hour? Maybe.

Probably not. But anyway, by myself, pitch black, dark. So you didn't have to deal with that, really. You weren't by yourself for too long. No, and never was I really. There's a couple laps that, like, I spent some time by myself, but not a ton. Yeah. Because, and then you start getting in the 200s.

Then that time is even, you know. Yeah, it's amplified. Yeah, it's amplified. And so that is a big part of it is like, your mind goes crazy out there. And Courtney, she talks about famously seeing, what is that?

Not hallucinations, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so she'll see like a leopard and a hammock type thing. But yeah, so that mental part, that will be another exciting challenge. I'm excited for that. Being solo.

But yeah, I don't know. I mean, I didn't think about it that you were by yourself in the 1500 meters even. because it doesn't really matter what anybody else feels or does. It's just you dealing with it. Yeah. And then was that, did you not enjoy that part of it?

Oh, I loved it. Oh, you loved that part? Okay. I wondered if that's why you wanted to get away from it. So why did you love it? I think two ways. And I tell a lot of young athletes this is when you go out on the track, you can be anybody you want.

You don't have to be yourself. Yeah. I always, I always viewed myself as an entertainer before an athlete. Really? Because if you're really boring out there, no real care. I don't care how good you are. If you're boring, it's not exciting. Make it exciting.

Do something. I don't know what you want to do. Just do anything. Make it exciting. Who does that, who does that for you that you see? I think Simmons. Simmons was, so when I first moved out here, Simmons was like the big dog on campus.

And he was an entertainer. first. Yeah. And I always thought, okay, what can I bring to the table? Because Ben Blanginjib is a really boring guy. He's really boring. So I always thought, okay, when I get in the call room, I'm going to be somebody else. I'm going to figure out who my alter ego is when I get out on the track and be somebody else. And who were you? Like, how'd you act? I hope it was entertaining. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how I act. Maybe it wasn't entertaining. I hope I was. But I always felt, like I could disassociate like all my other problems, all my other things in life. Yeah.

That didn't matter because I'm now somebody else. That's interesting. Okay. So yeah, you wanted to be an entertain, like, are you not entertained? I don't know about that. I don't know if that's me. But it's the same way. Like I think like when I stood in the little start line on the ultra, it was like any problems

I have in my life don't matter. Yeah. All I care about is getting to the finish line. Huh. Was, did you feel pressure? Because you were like this decorated runner and then going to the, did you feel pressure from that? I think I just didn't want to be,

and I struggle with this, I don't want to make a joke out of anything. I don't want to be like the guy who said, he can do something and it doesn't do it. Right, right. That's like my biggest concern in my whole life. I understand. Yeah.

So you're committed to it. I was committed. Okay, I got to give a good, effort and you're happy with your performance yeah overall i think like things went pretty well um yeah i think we could have done thing i could have done things better but yeah we're learning from them yeah um yeah so nick simmons he ran the 800 yeah and uh i think a couple olympics i know he made a couple two olympics yeah so who who else when i think of entertainers too like in in your distance centro was a a pretty good entertainer, wasn't he?

He was, well, yeah. The Achilles of mine. Yeah, he was really good. And I think, like, I think he had a very hard burden to carry because he was the guy that was supposed to make every team. Yeah. And I never had that pressure. Right.

I never, like, nobody would ever been like, that guy is going to make the team. It was just like, I could go out there and be first or last. And they were both, everybody would have been pretty like, oh, man, that was great. Like, you were there. But to be Centro and have to go out there time in and time again and like prove that like, hey, I deserve to win. Right. That's a lot to carry. Oh, man.

And I always felt like he came up and he was a tactician. I think the thing he doesn't get credit for enough is like he was a fucking tactician. Yeah. He knew how to win. Right. Yeah. I don't know if he studied a ton. I don't know if having a parent who was a super talented athlete as well.

well and he had spent his life in the sport. He just inherently learned a lot. Yeah. But he was a tactician. Yeah. No, he, yeah, I mean, it was fun to watch him race for sure. Did you, uh, have you beat him? Only on like, never when it mattered.

Really? I mean, but you did what in some races or training or what? Did you ever train together? We only train once and I, I will never train what to make. again, who's just so good. Like the things he could do in training, I could only hope to do. Yeah, or did you train with them? We did a workout.

We did 400s down in Sedona. Yeah. And I'm just not very fast. That just wasn't who I am. So you're doing sprints. Yeah, kind of sprints. I think for him it was like a jog. Oh, 400.

Oh, I think you meant four 100 meters. No, we were doing like 2,400s. 2400. Yeah. So 20 laps around the jog. track. Yeah. And then you'd run a lap and take a break. Yeah, they were like, I think we did, I don't know how we broke him into sets. So there was some big, big recovery. And then it was like four by, I don't know how we did it. Maybe it was 16, 400s or something, eight or four by four

hundreds. I don't know. Yeah. And I remember we got to kind of the last sets. And he, it was like, we're not, we're not playing the same game. We're not on the same level at all. Really? Like I thought we were. Oh, and it was like, he'd be like, hey, I'm going to get out fast. I was like, go fuck yourself. I'm getting out fast. I've been getting out fast, man.

And he was just on a different level. Yeah. And I don't think that scared me. I don't think I looked at it like he's unbeatable. It was like he's got to make mistakes. Yeah. Like I got to do something so that he can't be the same guy. Oh, I understand.

Yeah. So you had to get, instead of him calling the shots, to have a chance, you were going to have to dictate something do something yeah so going into that like the day before anytime i do something i'm always like like obsessing about it the day before like i can turn the that was just a workout but i can turn like the littlest thing into like a big thing in my head and like i got to show up okay i'm training with this person i got to have a good day right and uh so when you the night before you're training were you excited or what were you uh i well we we've been around each other enough and yeah shouldn't have been that big a deal it was just astonishing yeah it's like seeing real talent

out there you see good talent every once in a while and just being able to have those opportunities train with somebody was huge yeah i learned a lot i learned a lot that like i'm not very good so oh yeah when when was that uh uh i i got hurt like a couple days later um i think it's 2018ish somewhere somewhere somewhere in there i don't know i'm very like in my head it's all like a big blur yeah yeah but so at that that time you're just like wow yeah so that was six years so he's still trying on the track now how do you think that's going to go i it's hard to rule them out it's always hard to rule yeah he's such a proven winner yeah yeah And like he, in my head, he's still the same old Centro, right?

And I think there's always going to be a young newcomer, right? I think Cole showed that, Yard Noguchis showed that. It's just hard to take a guy who knows so much. And I think the tough part is, can Centro change who Centro is? Like, I think the hard part for me to envision him having success is like, what has always worked has always worked. And now what has always worked is not going to work again. You're not the same guy.

Can you change your formula to make this team? I think that's his biggest challenge. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, Jordan kind of adjusted his game later in his career where he was like the big dunker, didn't really have a three-point shot. Then all of a sudden was a three-point shooter and could have a fade away mid-range.

So maybe it's going to be something like that. The greatest usually figure out ways to adapt. Yeah. I don't know. That's why I just keep leaving. It's like, oh, I did that pretty well. Well, I don't know if the track offers that same amount of latitude, though. The track is so cutthroat.

Yeah. I mean. We'll see. I'm excited. Yeah. Excited to see how it plays out. I like, I'm a central fan too. So I like, I don't like.

I don't know if I'm a fan. I just admire them from afar. Okay, no, I'm a fan. You're, you're, yeah, just respect. No, I'm a fan. Yeah, yeah. No, it's, I don't know. I'm, I love watching the races and the race within a race,

but I don't even know anything about it compared to like what you do. So like, when did that race happen where, man, you told me about it, where you took off with like 600 meters and he came, he came with you. That before or after. That was 2017. Okay. So what happened there? Yeah.

I was still super proud of that race. So it was a world year. We came off 2016 and I was like, okay, this is my chance. I'm not, this is my one chance to beat Centro at home. Because you thought he had just won the gold. Yeah. So maybe he was. How cool is that?

Like to beat the reigning Olympic champ at his nationals, let's do it. And I was fired up. It was, I don't know why. It was an awful day. It was in Sacramento. It was like 108. And USATF was like, you know what time would be great to run a 15? 1 p.m.

Oh, God. And for some reason, I had it in my head that like he'll care, he'll want to make the team. Like his bigger goal is to come back and repeat as a world champ than it is for him to win USA's. Yeah. And that was probably a little bit. of a mistake, but I thought, okay, I'm going to gamble. So you thought he was going to be off his game a little bit? Not off his game, but it wouldn't matter to him as much.

Like he'd won so many U.S. champs at that point. He had just come off winning the gold and there's a lot of pressure. And like I kept thinking like in my head, like he'll think about the bigger picture. He won't worry about USA's. He'll worry about going to worlds and running really well. And I was like, I got it like this is my one chance. Like I felt like I'm in good. shape. Let's do something really dumb.

And it ran the best race that I think I could have run to beat Sancho. But I, for some reason, I overthought it a little bit. And Centro did exactly the opposite that I thought he was going to do. Tell me what you did than what he did. So we had two laps to go. And I was like, I'm just going to go really hard. I'm just going to run as hard as I can for 300 meters. And I'm going to gap everybody and just hope to maintain.

And I swear, it isn't like Ben's fit enough to do this. This was like, I'm not a hope that everybody else decides they're running for second. That was my hope. Yeah. That was like, okay. Break everybody. Not even break everybody. Just decide that like, hey, he's too far ahead.

Like, we want to make the team. And the only person I needed to take the bait was Centro. If he takes the bait, nobody else will go around. Right. If he decides not to go with me, then I've won it. Yeah. And he decides to go with me. And not even just go with me.

He, like, fought for it. And I don't know why he did that. He fought for me to win. And I should have known he was going to do that, right? Like, he's a competitor. He wants to win. And, like, for some reason, I fundamentally misread it. Yeah.

And you thought he'd be happy just making the, like, top three. Yeah. Let this guy go. Like he'll probably come back. Like I'll take the risk and he didn't take the risk. He stayed with you. But it did cost him the champs. Like he could have easily probably been a little bit more calculated and still won.

Yeah. But he decided to go with me. And he ended up second. So you guys, you guys gassed out because you're going too hard. Oh, yeah. Oh, I did. I like walked the last hundred meters. The last hundred meters was the most embarrassed.

I was super proud of it. But you're also running so fucking slow that, like, you can see your parents in the stands just being like, God, why did he do that? I was like, yeah. Oh, man. So he, who won that championship? Robbie Andrews. Okay. Yeah.

And then Central got second. Central got second. And you blew up. Oh, yeah. I just walked it in. It wasn't like I wanted to walk in. That was just all I had left. What, did anybody say anything to you afterwards?

Oh, everybody did. I'm like, why should you do that? I was like, and I think people misunderstood why I did that. Yeah, how so? I did it because I wanted to beat Centro. Yeah. I felt like this is my one chance. I know he's better than me.

Yeah. But he's proved that every year. He's been a better athlete since we left high school together. Yeah. He's been a better athlete since he won gold at the Olympics. Like, there's no question who the better athlete is. Yeah. But I felt like this is my one shot.

I'm not going to get another shot. Oh, hey, I got respect for that. I mean, you would go big or go home. Yeah. I mean, you put all your cards on the table. Yeah. Isn't there something beautiful about that? Too bad there were terrible cards.

Yeah. But that's, I don't know, it's awesome. I think it's a great story. I appreciate it. I love it. But it's, I don't know. I don't know. I totally understand.

I mean, I'm not, you're like this elite runner, but, but I can identify with. I'm the average guy who's just guys keeps showing up. Well, that's why, that's what I identify with. Yeah. That's, I don't, you know, people, I read what people say, like, they might say something about me running and I'm just like, I suck. Yeah. I mean, compared to an average person, maybe okay.

Yeah. But it's like, I totally get that like, I don't know. I don't know. It's like to me, you're elite, but I get where you're coming from comparing yourself to, to, I don't know. I don't know.

It's all relative. I understand it. I guess I understand your mindset. Yeah. It's just like maybe you feel like, you know, I don't deserve to be here, but I'm going to make the most of it type thing. That's kind of how I feel anyway.

But I don't know. You say you're average, but I'm still not buying it. but I love the stories. I appreciate it. Yeah. Well, it's going to be fun. We got the Olympic trials coming here this year. I will, you know, I'm excited to see that I want, I'd love Centra, the old guy there to still get it done.

But we'll see. It's tough, a lot of competition. Yeah. I was, you know, that story also reminded me of, you know, Emma, she had won, I think, like nine straight U.S. championships in the steeple. Yeah. And then got beat last year. And it's like, I just don't think that, because you said Centro, he's won so many,

maybe this wouldn't matter. It matters. For them? It matters. I mean, I know she got, I think she got second. Yeah. In the steeple. And I'm sure it mattered.

Yeah. You know, to be it, I don't know if it was, I think she was nine, right? Yeah. I think you're right. Right. I think she's going. Unbelievable amount. I mean, to be at the top of the of our country, which is a lot of runners in our country, for nine years.

I mean, I believe she's going for a 10th and I really wanted that one. And so, yeah, I don't think they can ever say, well, I've got nine. I'm good. I'll just like this, this guy win. Or that I can't remember who beat her. Do you remember who? Chrissy gear. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Chrisie gear came out and ran super well. She did. Yeah. And she was super calculating. She made really good decisions. Yeah, because Emma was leading, I believe, coming through. I was on the back stretch there.

I thought. With like 300, 400, 400 to go. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was, I don't know, Chris. Is it Chrissy? Chrissy gear, yeah. Yeah, I don't know her, but I don't Emma. So I definitely wanted Emma, but we'll see.

Yeah. She's, I don't think she's run a race yet this year, but I think she should be coming back pretty soon. I think she had a hamstring injury. So I'm excited to see how she does. Yeah. And I saw Corey just got married. It's track and field super fun.

You only get so many opportunities. Yeah. So. And I think one thing I always look at is like, what do you want to do in track and field? Do you want to be somebody who consistently shows up and makes U.S. finals and is like right in the mix, but maybe doesn't make it? Or do you want to come out and like do something exciting? Yeah.

Yeah. I always wanted to be like the exciting. guy. Like I just wanted to come out and be like, I don't care about fourth through last doesn't really matter. Like, who cares if you're six? Six, it doesn't matter. When were you the most exciting guy? Tell me like a race. I don't think I was ever that exciting. Tell me about a race you were happy with that you did exactly what you're talking about. Was that that one just challenged Central or did you have one where your plan worked perfect? No plan has ever worked perfect. I think one, I think one. One race I was super proud of was the pre the Bowerman mile one year.

I had no real business up front. And with like 500 to go, I was like, I'm just going. Like, let's see what happens. And I always wanted to try to win. I always wanted to do something big. And like maybe it pays off. Maybe it doesn't. But like running for fourth or third, like at that, it doesn't matter.

Like to me, it just never mattered. Like, right. You're not trying to win, then what's the fun? Yeah. And with like 200, 250 to go, I thought, oh, okay, I'm going to win this. I got this. And then with 100 to go and like the 100 meters is a long way. Yeah.

Like I challenge every. You can see it right there. Oh, you can see it. And it seems short, but it's a lifetime. And like with 100 to go, I went from like second to third to fourth to like, I think I ended up eighth or something. Yeah. It was super fun.

Like I had a black. And I remember like it was old Hayward and like the crowd erupted. And it was like this is this is it. This is why I'm doing it. Right. What did you break four on that one? Yeah. I mean, we ran fast.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Breaking four for you guys isn't that big a deal probably. Yeah. So what you mentioned too that the Olympics, so much focus on the Olympics.

Do you ever see that changing? So. So you're thinking it's like shouldn't mean or it's not everything. No. So do you see that changing or is that just the way it is? I don't know. I think the I think the tough part and maybe I'm like kind of bitter. I don't know.

I thought it was going to be different. Like I came out and like maybe it was just a weird place. Like maybe Rio just wasn't into track. in field but like I came out of like you come out of the state or you come you're under the stadium and you come out of this tunnel onto the track and it's supposed to be like you know the moment of your life and you come out and there's like 20 people and you're like okay cool it was like 9 a.m. I was like oh cool and I thought for some reason stupidly right that like I had a lot of opportunities I'm not going to take those away like becoming an Olympian gave me tons of opportunities.

do tons of stuff now. Like I've done, I've done so much in the sport, but I kind of thought it would elevate me. Yeah. Like I went from running a lot of races to like make sure I could kind of cover all my bills. It was like, I'm not a race all fall so I can have a little bit of money to like go do something fine. Like I had a contract. I was super lucky, but it wasn't that lucrative.

And it was like, you're one injury away from like getting a job at Albertsons to keep running. Like I was never in a position where, like, I felt like I could relax. Like, hey, I'm covered for a little bit. I can relax now. It was always like, hey, you're not making teams. Well, it might be a tough go for you and you might have to look for something else. Yeah. And I was always willing to risk it.

But I thought getting to the, like, the pinnacle of what we say the sport is. I was like, okay, if I make this final, maybe I'll have some money. Yeah. And that just never happened. Yeah. And maybe it was my stupidity. going into it thinking like how the Olympics must pay us they must pay us some money look at this like they've been talking about it all year yeah this is all this is everybody's you know

dream and then they're like here's a button here's a participation button yeah and I was like okay cool it's like all comers meet yeah and I like looked under it I was like maybe the checks under it nope nope just this button awesome oh wear my button I'll wear my button I my button. I wear it to Albertson. I do, yeah, I get that.

So if that's, has there been a race that is the pinnacle? Like, where you, something happened and it's like, and it truly means more than the Olympics to a runner. Is there races like that?

Honestly, I cut my teeth and I was a guy who, who raced a lot. Yeah. Mostly because I was motivated by money. I wanted to make a living and I wanted to not be stressed about like paying my mortgage or paying my rent and be able to do some cool stuff outside of the sport. So when we got done on the track in the summer, I'd just go to all these road miles.

And the road miles were you're at that point where you're tired. You're still trying to string together races. And those meant a ton to me. When in the beauty to be it. Winning the Butteau, the best townie race in the country. Because you did win, right? I did win, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

But, like, that stuff where, like, you make 1,500 bucks. Yeah. And it's like, man, this is real money for me. Right. Like winning, if I can run four road miles in a month and win a couple thousand bucks and come out with like 10 grand, that's amazing. Yeah, that's great. It's awesome. So the Olympics doesn't pay athletes anything?

No. Whoa. No. Yeah. So I guess to you better be turning that into sponsorship money. Yeah. And I don't do that much like, well, I'm an average guy.

Here's what's, here's what's crazy about it is like, okay, so on the come up, why would they, you haven't done anything yet. Yeah. So then you win, if you win the Olympics, it's just like now, now after that, normally you don't win multiple Olympics.

No. So if you didn't make it on the way up, then you, you want. but it's going to be tough to, so when are you making that money? When are you making that money? Yeah. And I think, right?

Like I was in a very privileged position most of my career where like Nike did invest in me. Yeah. They invested me for 10 years. And I was really lucky to have that investment. But it's not a huge investment for it. It's not like I'm living this like big lavish lifestyle. And I remember I asked Centro what he got from them. And it was like decent money, but not like,

And he's the best athlete we've produced in generations. Yeah, and nowhere near like NBA, NFL, any of those. And like, you look at the work you have to put in and the sacrifice you have to make for years. But he did make decent money. But I could see. Imagine being like the third or fourth. Right. Right. So it's like.

And I'm not, I do not want to come off as like a guy who's like, no. Man, I want to get paid more. I deserve. I don't deserve anything. I'm not selling anything. I'm just a dude. You're just saying.

But I did get to the Olympics and I was like, hey, babe, we're going to be in the money. And she's like, I don't think so. I was like, no, don't you worry. Where's this money you're talking about? Yeah. And she's stuck around though. Oh, yeah. She's been.

Yeah. Oh, man. I don't know. That is a hard one. When do you, how do you earn a living? Yeah. Sometimes it's about that. That's enough.

that's another part of it's like if you're training all the time and this is your goals like that money has to come somewhere yeah so i get that yeah but uh yeah it's it's weird how it's do other countries pay their athletes uh i i don't know i'm not that smart like i'm not gonna i'm not gonna sit here and be like hey this is a better formula we could do these things better i've never thought about it right my my perspective sometimes is that like when i talk to young athletes and i talk to athletes who are working solely for the purpose to call themselves an Olympian. And I think they fall into that trap of like, hey, I'm going to make it.

This is my moment. Right. Like, it's cool. Yeah. It's really cool. And it means a lot. Like, if you ask anybody and they're like, oh, you run, have you been in the Olympics? It's like, okay.

Yeah. Like, I can say, yeah. Mm-hmm. Do I care? I don't care. Like, it was, it was the goal I had then. Yeah. It's not the goal I have now.

Yeah. I understand that. I mean, yeah, I don't know. I can't relate it to anything, but I have talked about like I had this book and it and it did make New York Times. There you go. And it wasn't, but that was never the goal. So it's like I, it was just to tell a story.

Yeah. And then if it made it, whatever, if it didn't, it's fine too. I mean, or it's kind of cool to do it, but it doesn't, what does it mean? Yeah. You're still the same person. I still got to do the same shit every day. It didn't like... And I don't think I'd do anything different.

Like, if I made a ton of money, I'd still be running the Butte and I'd still be going out to do some ultras. Yeah. So, yeah, what is the reward of life then? Yeah. That's a big question. It's just to enjoy what you're doing, I guess, right? Yeah.

To have people that believe in you like you have. Yeah. Maybe to pass on some of the knowledge like you're doing, because I know you coach now. Yeah. You know, you coached. You got a lot of athletes getting. for the Eugene Marathon.

Yeah. So maybe is that the reward? Is that what we're supposed to be doing? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It seems like a good story so far. But tell me about two, because don't you, you have an organization that you work with,

that you're, what do you do? Yeah. I started a nonprofit. It's called the Endless Mileage Project. And it's at the crossroads of sustainability and athletics. We have two pillars. One is the fast forest. So right here in Springfield and Doris Ranch, we planted 850 trees that represent all the athletes who have broken 4 and 430 in the mile in the U.S., which is super cool. And then we have recovered running, which collects new and gently used items for under-resourced kids. My biggest fear is some kid that's from Yonge Haller, Oregon, goes out for track and field, shows up on day one. and goes, I don't, I don't have running shoes. And they're like, come back when you have running shoes.

Yeah. Or they want to, but they don't feel like they belong because they don't have the gear. And we live in such a privileged society. We live here in the Emerald Valley where track and field and distance running really started. And there's a lot of waste. And it was like, why don't we just get back to the next generation of athletes? And that means a ton to me. Yeah.

Like I was never in that position. My parents were awesome. They bought me running shoes. But without running, I wouldn't be here today. Yeah. And it's not even so much that maybe it's the next phenom that wasn't going to run, but now they are. Yeah.

But it's just all the other kids that running can be this thing, this thing that they can own and feel good about. Yeah. And they get a little positive reinforcement. And maybe they'll never make the Olympics. Maybe they'll never make anything. But at that moment in their life, it was a positive. Yeah. So, yeah, that seems, man, that's a great.

great cause um yeah i didn't know i didn't know the full story behind that but yeah that's awesome yeah mostly i had a i had a truck early when i was living here and i helped a ton of people move and a ton of people had a lot of old running gear they're like hey can you drop it off at st vincent's or good well for me and i was like why not i just call a high school like there's some really cool gear in here maybe a high school kid will like it so i started doing it really grassroots and then at some point it kind of formalized and now we've been 501c3 for two years now. That's sweet. Yeah.

Yeah, that's good. Well, all right, I'm going to end this with when you were growing up. Did you have like a running idol that you love to follow? I'm right at that like weird time period where like I didn't have the internet. My parents weren't inside the sport. So if it wasn't the Olympics or it wasn't like some front page, you know, you didn't know about it. You didn't know about it. Yeah.

Right. So no pre-Fontaine stories. No pre-Fontaine, right? Like I just grew up and then eventually I started to run it. Yeah. You know? That's, well, that works too. I mean, I don't know.

I think I knew of pre just because of living here. Yeah. You know, and then growing up, there was like, Remember that Miler Guerrero? Was it Hitchamon Guerrero? Yeah. Do you remember that guy? Hickamel Garouge.

Is that, oh, is that who it was? Yeah. King of the Mile. Yeah, for a long time. Yeah. Anyway, I remember that. I was, I was grown by that time, but I just have always loved these, like, larger than life track or, like, these legends.

Yeah. You know, who is Sidney McLaughlin? Yeah. Like, she's incredible. Yeah. And a track is, like, so epic. But, yeah, there's people, these superstars that are hard not to be inspired by. Yeah.

Now, I feel like I came here with a ton of questions and I didn't ask any, so I feel bad now. Questions? You're not supposed to have questions. I had a ton of questions because you grew up here. What's your question? What's your question? I mean, I think you've seen that sport ebb and flow, right? And I think Eugene has always been kind of the heartbeat of track and field, especially with distance runners, right?

Like I mentioned earlier, Steve Pescentia kind of gave me this roadmap. Yeah. And the direction was go west. Go to Eugene, put yourself in it, and just keep showing up. And that's what I did. Yeah. And you could live a lot of places in America. But I live here because I can go to the track and there's going to be somebody there.

I can go to Spencer's and there's going to be somebody running there. I can go to Piscca and you're never alone. Yeah. There's always somebody out on the trail. And you don't get that anywhere else. Oh, I see. And one of my questions was like, how much of this environment has shaped your career?

Oh, yeah, just being a runner. I mean, that's just mostly just because my dad was an athlete and he was really good at track or he's good at basically he did the hurdles and he did long jump and he did the pole vault and he did a high jump. So he did all mostly that. But then he got in and he coached at track or coached. coached at South for decades. Yeah.

And he was really great, great coach, loved the kids. And so, yeah, track was always like part of our life, basically. I mean, even when my daughter, she was pole vaulting. She was pretty good when she was younger. She's over here at Silky Field. And the track coach is there said, oh, are you Bob Haynes' daughter, her granddaughter? And she's like, yeah, it's like, you know, your grandpa's legend around here. So just knowing that history.

and just being around the track as he's always officiated, you know, the big track meets and had the kids at the state meet. So I'd always go over there. And yeah, just track it here is everything. Yeah. Basically in running. So it's just a byproduct of that is like, you run the Butte d'amute every year, Eugene Marathon.

Yeah. Going to the big track mates. It's like running his life, basically. But yeah, it was a... And then my grandma lived over on 24th in Emerald. So I would, I lived in a little town out here called Marcoa, but I'd ride my bike all the way from there to her house, stay and watch MTV and hang out and go to University Park.

But when there's big track meets, I could hear the track and the crowds over the hill there. There's a little hill down to Hayward. And so I'd walk over there and just be on holding on the fence and just watching all the athletes. And so, yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome.

Been pretty lucky. Yeah. Yeah, and also what other place has a track like Hayward where I don't know how many people it holds now, maybe close to, I mean, over 12,000, I know that. But what other place has a track just for track and field that big? Yeah. I mean, is there any place in the U.S.? I don't think any place in the U.S. I think the place that gets overlooked in Eugene is south. Yeah.

I've traveled all over this country. and finding accessible tracks is hard. Really? It is a hard thing to do here. I didn't know that. Schools make it difficult. And I understand why. But being able to go down to South Eugene

and hang out on a track and then go run some bark chips and come back to the track and just hang out, I think it's ingrained, right? Yeah, yeah. I know I was just over there the other day. I did a little video because I had run from that,

from the practice track at South to Spencer's in back because you told me. He's got to do official butes. The war starts on the Valley floor. But yeah, and it just reminded me of my dad always being over there every day. And I think even like, you know, as I said, Emma Coburn and her teammates,

they train over there when they're here. Yeah. Like it's just so accessible. It's just that I didn't know that was unique. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, I don't know, the old track scene. Yeah.

Yeah. And I'd be curious, like, how much of that culture has shaped your bow hunting, getting into bow hunting, kind of pioneering the things you've done. Yeah, I mean, running was always a big part of it because I thought that the more endurance I'd have, the better I'd be on the hunt. Yeah. And then when I first started people, most people don't want to think they have to run to bow hunt. They're just like, what?

This guy's saying you got to run a marathon, which I never said. I just did it. So yeah, I got a lot of pushback for a long time. People talking shit about me, you know, saying that, you know, you don't need to train like a professional athlete to bow hunt type thing. And so I, you know, got a, it was, that was like a big deal in hunting. People don't like when you change things up, right? You know, people have been hunting for hundreds, thousands of years.

They weren't running to prepare. So I got a lot of pushback. Now it's like more, it's kind of. of a cool thing, but. You can say you're cool. No, no. But I do the lift run shoot and now I have people coming to do it with me. Yeah.

So it's just like, yeah, you can hate on it, but some people think it's like a good idea, I guess or interesting. So it's, yeah, it's been crazy. It's been running was always just my thing and what I did to prepare. And now it's, you know, kind of grown from there. Because you were one of the first people to kind of pioneer biking to go, run or biking to go hunt right biking yeah because you used to bike on forest service roads yeah the gates are closed yeah you can't drive a vehicle yeah and how many people are going to do that

yeah there's one other guy and then whoever was with me but this guy named kurt brace he uh worked for the city of eugene forever and all i all i know that when we started to do that it's like biking on logging roads loose gravel and you got to keep your ass on the seat otherwise your quads get there you go freaking worked and I was you know I would take people up there to do that like I showed you that picture of my wife flipping off the camera from I think one of our first dates but uh I would take people up there and they'd be walking and puking and like I thought it was fun I thought I like seeing people suffer right and uh it was hard but yeah so I right then even though I wasn't going 100 miles back into the into the wilderness that

was hard in its own way and so I was like god dang better shape I'm in the further I can get the better opportunity I have it finding animals that haven't been pressured because people have haven't been back here yeah that was like a a big advantage that I had just for being in shape and yeah that started that was back in the 90s that's awesome and then it translated to I did my first marathon like in 2002 the gorge marathon so yeah just kind of a evolution I guess that's awesome Yeah. What's always been like the motivator? For running or for what?

For both. For hunting, like, right? You could go hunt easy places. Yeah. Right? There's tons of easy places to go hunt. Yeah. Well, the motivation has been killing a big bull with an arrow really hard.

Yeah. No matter where you are. When you're deep in the wilderness, it's even harder. Because not only are you by yourself, generally, I was, because, my buddy who we started bowhunting with. This is Roy here on this table. But he moved to Alaska. And so I was by myself in the wilderness.

So that was hard. But then also killing one of these big bulls with an arrow and then getting it out was a hard. Yeah. Very hard. So it was the draw was this is something not very many people are good at. Yeah. Could I be good at it? It was like a test.

There you go. You know, and so when I first, you know, I've killed a bull my first year, a spike bowl, a young bull, but then I've, you know, killed every year since, and it's never easy. Yeah. So I've always thought that no matter how hard I work, it's very challenging. Yeah. But I'm going to keep trying to get better and improving and hopefully still get it done. Yeah. So that's, it's just, it's just one of those things that you can't master bow hunting.

Yeah. It's just so difficult. And these animals are so good to stay in alive. It takes, it takes everything I have to be able to get it done every year. So that's what I like about it. There you go. Yeah. I think it's tough, right?

Because I think, I think when we say we're going to get better and we're going to have this, right? It's a hard thing to define that success, right? Like, especially in track, right? The game changes. And it's like, okay. you won this race now can you do it again right that success is always getting redefined right and i imagine it's the same thing in hunting yeah it's constantly changing and never not get easier right right yeah and you know to your point i think too once once i do kill a bowl you know i'm not trying to be

disrespectful to its life and the sacrifice but it's like that doesn't mean that was just done yeah it's on to the next on to the next and so it's never you're it's not it's not it's not It's never over. Yeah. The grind is never over. Yeah. It's just like, yeah. Okay, you did it.

It doesn't mean anything for next year. Yeah. You know, like the race that you win that doesn't have any bearing on the next race. Does it? That's what some people, I don't know. I think some people don't like stuff like that. They like a lot of people do rest on their laurels. I have to.

You know, I'm not saying I'm above anybody. But it's like it's hard answering that bell. every time. Yeah. You know, it's just like, God, do I going to do this again? It's tough. You know, I mean, I love bow hunting. I love the challenge, but it's like it makes me anxious every year thinking about,

I love that. Am I going to be able to get it done this year? Yeah. Because it is so difficult. It could easily, if I don't get the break that I need, could easily not. Yeah. And that's, you know, when this is what I'm supposed to be good at, you know, I mean, yeah.

This is supposed to be my thing. Yeah. And I don't know in my own head whether I'm going to be able to get it done. That's pressure. Yeah. And I think some people, they'd rather avoid pressure.

And so I don't know. And that's fine too. I mean, if they're happy. Those are the moments. I love that anxious period. Yeah. I love that. I feel at home.

It's the only time I feel like I can be my most genuine self. Right. When it's like, this is it. This is the moment. And right, you stand on the 1,500 line. It goes really fast, right? It's three minutes. The ultra, you have a long time to figure it out.

But in that moment, you have to make the decision. Like, when the gun goes off, we're not hurt. We're not hurt for a really long fucking time. And I kept saying to myself, like, I want to get to the fun part. And I told my team that. Like, we came through the first loop and I was like, I want to get to the fun part. Yeah. And they're like, what's the fun part?

I was like, when everything's going wrong. Oh, right. And everything's going wrong and it doesn't feel like I can take any more steps. Yeah. It's when the funge part begins. Well, because when it feels good, anybody can do that. Yeah. Anybody.

It's like, if you just run when you feel good, that's everyone. Yeah. But then as soon as it starts to get uncomfortable, most people quit. So that I get what you're saying. That is the fun part. And sometimes I screw up, right? I get to the fun part too soon. We're like, I go out too fast.

And I was like, oh, this is a blast. I did that a ton in my marathon training. I would, we do these. long 20 mile rinds right and Ryan hall was helping me and he's like man you got to slow down I was like but this is the fun part yeah and he's like you can't have fun the whole time man so just to clear it up the fun is pain oh yeah that's the last that's what Courtney always says that too she's in the pain cave and she likes to explore and like make it bigger so yeah I mean but there is that fine line between getting to the pain cave too soon yeah and like okay I had enough time now I'm

Yeah. I don't know what to do. Yeah. But yeah, I always struggle with knowing what the limit is. And the only, I've only been, it seems weird. No. I mean, maybe I sound like an idiot. But like the, I remember when I was running in Boston with Lance over there, that was the one time where I'm like, I can't do this. But my goal was just to get a picture with him because he was like larger than life at that time. And at first I went and I was like, oh, I'm going to run, find Lance at Boston.

I knew he's running. I'm going to try to get a picture with him. Somebody has to take a picture because he's like, so I was like running and I'm like, mostly selfishly, I'm like, I don't know if I've been with him long enough to for somebody to get a picture. So he was like looked like he was taking off and just so strong. And I was just almost on the verge of blowing up. I thought I'm going to have to walk. But I'm just like, I got to stay with him.

So I was just like, folks, it's like running harder than I should have. have been and thinking I'm going to blow up, but I got to stay with them as long as possible. And by myself, I would never have done that. But I was just like, no, I'm going to go burst in flames, but that's all right. And then I did it. And then I started to feel better. Yeah. I never would have got to that place.

Yeah. Because I would have slowed down way back there. So now it made me think of all the times where I thought I needed to slow down or I was done. if I would have just kept pushing, maybe my body would respond it. Yeah. That's, to me, that's what's hard. Yeah.

Is knowing when to push, when to let up. Yeah. It's just that decision. And then what happens if I do push? Yeah. I mean, you probably have to do it all the time of track, though, right? Yes and now. But I imagine, like, to go back to your, to go back to hunting and to go back to, like,

biking out on these roads, right? I imagine the curiosity is like, what's on the next side? of this ridge. Yeah. They're a bigger bull on the other side of this. Yeah, that's always the goal. Can I get through this next ridge? And there's got to be a time where you look back and you're like,

fuck, I have a long way back to the truck. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, that what's the unknown is what keeps us going because you're always like, you want to get to the promised land. Yeah. You want to find where there's just giant bulls and it's just like, oh my God, nobody's ever been here. There's never been a boot track here.

And so that's, that is the goal, no matter how unrealistic it is. And that's, you know, with running in life, maybe it's the same thing. It's like what's pushing you to get over that next ridge. But with hunting, that is a big part of it for sure. It's just exploring. So there's different ways to explore. It's like your own limit, physical limit, exploring that threshold or, as you said, the ridge, which is an easy one to, easy illustration to see.

Have you been in that position where you're so far out? And it's like, I don't know how I'm going to make it back. Whether the weather changes or something comes up, maybe you misjudge water. I don't know everything. I don't know the rhythm of hunting. Yeah. But have you been out there and you're like, man, it's not a bit of a long hike? Yeah.

Oh, yeah, definitely. You always, yeah, you're always further. It's way easier going to the unknown than coming back. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because it's like, then you've already seen the country you just went back to. So it takes a while. while to get back. But when you're pushing hard, getting after animals, and then, yeah, you get in

it's, you know, it's like you keep going because you think, oh, I just need to get this break, this break, this break. So you're following this animal or this herd. And you always think it's, this effort is what's going to pay off. Then when it doesn't, and then you look at how far you went or where you're at happens all the time. Yeah. All the time. So you just have to be prepared to either what I, you know, when I was hunting the wilderness and writing that backcountry bow hunting book and doing all that, it's like I always had camp on my back. So to me, I had to carry the weight all the time, like the 40 or 50 pounds, but I never had to get back to a camp. I had it all with me. So that was,

that was a big advantage. Sometimes there's times when big storms to move in. And one time I had to, there was this old outfitter camp and I got in, got in this dirt, they left a tent there, got in there and I was soaked. I mean, it was nasty. So without that, it would have been pretty dicey, but yeah, you just... That's awesome.

Try to survive. Yeah. Because you talked about being up on Kodiak one time when we were outrunning. Yeah. And that's a tough country. Yeah, Kodiak is just, you know, when your deer hunting there,

it's the first week. Usually went around Halloween, so first week in November, the bucks are rutting, but the weather is nasty. Of course, the bear, they're trying to get the last fish. And there's a late run usually there around that time.

Maybe a few fish coming in. So the bear down on the water or a few rifle owners have to deal with this. I didn't know with the bow. But if there's a rifle shot that goes off the bear come to it because they know that something died. Really? So that's like a dinner bell, a rifle shot. So if you're a rifle hunting on Kodiak and you shoot, then you're checking your shoulder over your shoulder all the time. I would never have thought about that.

Yeah. It's a, but with a bow, still, even though I'd kill bucks with an arrow and my buddy Roy, he was like the master's there. But you kill a buck downwind, the bear are going to smell the blood. So you're watching downwind all the time. Wow. Because a bear would smell a blood or a dead animal from miles. Yeah. So whatever that, you just know whatever ways that wind is going.

You better be checking what's coming up this entrail. That's amazing. because that's how, you know, and they don't, they don't really have any natural predators. There's, you know, a brown bear could be 1,400, 1,000 pounds. They're used to call on the shots. So they're, when they come in and they want, like, your deer, they're going to get it. I mean, or somebody's going to die. So that's just the way it goes.

But yeah, that's fun. That's awesome. Really puts my beaute stories to shame. I'm like, yeah, if I slip on a rock, I have to walk 500 feet back to my car. I know. Well, it's, you know, hunting, it is different, but it's all challenge. It's all, you know, there's all risk and everything. But there's some pretty specific risks with hunting for sure.

Yeah. Mostly it's the country. Yeah. The country is unforgiving. You know how big mountains are. Yeah. The animal's definitely like a big predator like that. I mean, that's what, that school there is from a brown bear, that big one.

massive yeah that one it was nine nine foot six inches that's the biggest biggest brown bear i've killed where was it that was that was up uh let's see there's a bay what's a bay called but it's where the alaska peninsula goes off okay and so it's right kind of in that bay right there right at the mainland and it was right up in there that's awesome but yeah big bear yeah they're giant that's sweet yeah that's sweet yeah That's sweet. But, yeah. Is that your question?

Those are my questions. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, thanks for asking them. Yeah, I didn't anticipate you asking questions, but you do, you've had a podcast too. I mean, you're good. You're good at sharing ideas. You're good at your stories are awesome.

I mean, you got so much to offer. I'm so thankful you agreed to come on the podcast. I kind of scrolled through the podcast list and I was like, this one might be a flop for you. No. Heck no. I mean, just that story of going from, you know, being an elite track athlete to a 100 mile ultra,

that hasn't happened very much. But it only makes sense in my head. Yeah. Well, but has anybody done it? I don't know. Somebody, Ethan, Ethan talked about it. Yeah. And he was like, you have to be one of the only guys

who has ever run as fast. as you have and lined up for a 100 mile race. Yeah, just, well, an Olympian on the track to 100, I don't, I don't know, I don't know anybody who's done it. Yeah, it's an obscure statistic, right? Yeah, but you have, you've looked for those before. No, I have not. No, no, no, no.

This is Kyle Murber. He transitioned to run in a marathon and his goal was sub 220. And then he found a random statistic that there was three other people. Bernard Legat Matt Tegan Camp Galen Rupp and he was like I'm going to etch my name

and he for some reason I can't remember he had a tough day it was just a tough day at New York and he just missed his goal and then I swooped in

and I was that fourth guy to run you know I think it was like sub 335 and sub 220 in the marathon yeah And I always looked up. There was a guy named Anthony Famagetti who was really good at a ton of different stuff.

He was a great steepler. He won a couple of U.S. road champs like over like 10K, 15K. And he always called himself like the most versatile runner in the country. Yeah. And I always thought, man, that's really cool. Yeah. I'm not very, I'm not going to be Centro, like Centro Centro, Centro. I'm not going to be like, I'm not going to be a guy who runs sub 13 minutes in the 5K.

I know where my limits are. I would love to. Yeah. And I pushed myself too, but it just never happened. And I thought, fuck, I can do a lot of cool stuff. Yeah. And like, it only made sense for me to kind of evolve and keep on it. This is what I've been good at and I keep being good at it.

Yeah. And every year, you know, I wake up on race day. I'm nervous and I'm like, this is the fun part. Let's go prove that I can be good at this. Yeah. Well, what was a world record you have? It's a relay. It's a DMR relay.

Okay. And then also didn't you you ran under four in Alaska? Yeah. On Codiac Island. On Codiac. So has anybody else done that? There was one other guy. His name was Jack Bolus.

He was a New Balance athlete out of Wisconsin. And New Balance, I can't remember the whole story. I think they built a dome in Anchorage or something for high school athletes to keep running through the winter. Yeah. And it was an obscure track. It was like 430 meters or something, but it was inside. Oh.

And he broke four, allegedly. Okay. And there was a guy named, I'm blanking on his name right now, Trevor Dunbar from Kodiak Island. Okay. And he was a great athlete. He came down here, ran for the docks, had a lot of success. He's coaching at Virginia now with Vinlanana.

And he put on this, he wanted to bring track and field to Kodiak. And we went up there and, like, had a great time. And, like, a bunch of cool guys went up. And it was like, let's run fast. And the morning, you know, Codiak, it was like a nice morning. And then probably 20, 30 minutes before the race started going off, it was like this cold, rainy, kind of snowy. And the track didn't, it's kind of a high school track.

And Lane 1 had this, like, little pit to it. So water just stayed in it, right? So it's like this film of water. And for some reason, we kind of got it done. I ran a great race. I ran like 356 or something, but it was super cool to come, go up there and do something big.

Yeah. So, yeah, that's all. I love that you know so much of the history and the running and the names. It's all, I mean, I don't know. It's all interesting to me. And it's like, I think that that's a big part of running is appreciating the history.

Yeah. You know, and the figures that have made the sport as special as it is. And you definitely do that well. So I love hearing the stories. I appreciate it. And, yeah, I've learned a lot from you. And I don't know, I'm super, super thankful you came on the podcast. I appreciate it.

Thank you. Thanks for the hospitality. Yeah, we could sit here and talk. And hopefully, someday you can make me a good runner. I'm going to hire you as a coach. but thank you Ben. Thank you. I appreciate it.

I'm honored. All right. Thanks, guys. Keep hammering.