Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 072 - Emily Halnon

Episode Date: May 3, 2024

Join us for a discussion with Emily Halnon, writer, trail runner and mountain athlete out of Eugene, Oregon. Emily and Cam talk about Emily’s book, To the Gorge, Emily’s mom, ultra running and more. Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow Emily: https://www.instagram.com/emilysweats  Thank you to our sponsors: Ketone IQ: https://hvmn.com/CAM use code CAM for 20% Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order MUD\WTR: https://mudwtr.com/cam use code CAM for 15% off  Sig Saur: https://www.sigsauer.com/ use code CAM for 10% off Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv  MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping Timestamps: 0:00:00 Intro: Emily’s Running History 0:07:48 Emily’s Best Marathon 0:09:19 Getting into Ultra Running 0:13:10 Making Money While Running & Writing 0:16:10 Breaking Away From the Corporate Life 0:21:30 Running in the Mountains & Thunderstorms 0:24:21 Ultra Running: Adventure Runs 0:26:58 Emily’s Running Bucket List 0:29:38 Ad Break 0:31:40 Running While Everyone Else is Sleeping 0:33:06 “To the Gorge” & Emily’s Mom 0:40:49 The Legacy of our Friends & Family 0:42:33 Regaining Strength After Losing Someone You Love 0:53:45 Beating the Oregon FKT Record 0:57:08 Emily’s Spirituality 01:04:35 Dealing with the Pain When You’re in the Dark 01:07:29 Low Points in Running the Gorge 01:12:10 Achieving the Goal 01:18:42 Emily’s Brother & Sister-in-Law 01:24:40 Outro: What’s Next for Emily

Every step I take I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel. Gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I move it's so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. This is a Keep Hammer Collective.

I'm with Emily Hellman. Look at this. How sick is this book? That's pretty exciting. Is this your first book? It's my first book. Okay. I don't know if there will be another after everything that's gone into this one.

Really? Yeah, well, I know there's like, there's some deep meaning to this one for sure. Yeah. But yeah, we'll talk about that. Let's get, let's get everybody up to speed. So what have you been running forever or what's your running history? Because all I've heard like from been, is it, what is it? Blank and shit.

Blank and shit, yeah. Yeah, no, we were joking around because he said Emily's last name wrong on, on this. podcast. So we want to make sure we screw up his name. Get him back a little. So all I've heard offhand is like hard rock runner, right? So that's, that's legit. And then that's pretty much it. Then we've run together a couple times. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about your running. Yeah. I really got into running. I'm trying to remember how old I was. Oh, it's easy because I ran my first marathon on my birthday. It was my 23rd birthday. And I got into running because my mother got into running. got into running later in life.

I was a teenager when she started with, she had her gallbladder removed, and it was a big health scare for her, and it moved her to want to make some changes in her life to become more physically active and incorporate more exercise. And at first that was walking, like walking on our dirt road in Vermont,

just a few steps at a time. And then she started race walking, which... And how old was she when she started this, do you remember? I mean, she must have been like mid to late 40s, Okay. Yeah. And then she, the walking turned into race walking, I think because there's something genetic in us that's competitive. Yeah.

And then she started running and she started with 5Ks and then she climbed that ladder of distances, 5Ks, 10Ks, half marathons. And then the year she turned 50, she ran her first marathon. Wow. I was 19. It was the Vermont City Marathon through the streets of Burlington. I was all over the place cheering for her. and to watch your 50-year-old mother run a marathon. That's awesome.

It's pretty freaking inspiring. Yeah. And it left me wanting to try it myself. And so we have to ignore this dog behind the door, but I don't know if people can hear it. We can hear it. But anyway, go ahead. I'm used to, though, having a dog in the background. So I'm just like, it's a dog in the background.

Right. Yeah. So I watched her on that marathon and then felt like I wanted to do it myself. And I think it was about three or something. so years later that I actually did that. And she did it with me. We went down to D.C. and did the Marine Corps marathon together. And it's a big one. It's a big one. Yeah. I haven't done it, but it looks fun. Yeah, it was fun. I ended up doing it a couple of times because I moved to D.C. for a bit and did it when I lived there. But at the time I lived in Vermont and we traveled down together.

And my mom ended up beating me by 20 minutes. Really? So she's pretty good. Well, and I mean, she was very good for like a, or you were starting out. I was, I made some miscarriage of, mistakes that day for sure. I went out way too fast. I think you're familiar with the idea of going out a little too fast. Every race. It's easy to do. I only, I say that because we talked about your marathon yesterday and you mentioned that you felt like you went out a little too fast. Oh, no, I didn't feel like it. I knew it. But then I also felt like it. But yeah, go ahead. Oh, yeah. I didn't know it at the time. I was just like, this is my marathon pace obviously. And I was like, I'm awesome. I'm going to qualify for Boston in my first marathon. And then it was like mile 13 when that reality

just crashed. And then I watched my mom run by all steady and strong and confident. And I think it was her fourth marathon by the time we did that one together. And she just looked like she knew what she was doing. And then she made it to the finish line about 20 minutes before I did. So what was your time on that one? It was a 440. I think I positive split that run. by like, I can't do the math right now, but like over an hour. Yeah. It was bad. Yeah.

Well, no, I know all about it. But yeah, that's like, so first marathon, it seems like, you know, your first one, just finish, right? Yeah. I mean, I tell people, like, I had my son run at his first one when he was 19. And I just, I remember joking around saying, just make sure you beat Oprah. Because Oprah at the time had run, I think Chicago in like 4.30. Oh, so I didn't even beat Oprah.

And so I did Eugene and then he was going to do it. And then I'm like looking at my watch going, where in the hell is he? My brother Taylor is supposed to be running with him. So I called Taylor and I'm like, where's Tanner? And he's like, oh, he's struggling back by whatever. So I went out from Hayward all the way down by Eweb and there he was walking. And he's like, he's like, dad, it feels like I'm walking on broken glass. My feet hurt so bad.

I was like, well, I got some bad news. He goes, what? I go, you're not going to beat Oprah. And he goes, he goes, I don't care about that. And so anyway, point is, it's like time, you can't even, first one just finish. First one just finish. I'm like, so I had people in this last, and Eugene, I think did it in like 515 for the first one.

Somebody else, like, who else did that? Oh, no, yeah, this other kid, Eric, he did like, 442. So I think you were writing the money for the first time. I felt I got to the finish line. I was really, I didn't dwell a lot on the time. I mean, I did feel like I shouldn't have been beat by my mother by 20 minutes. Yeah. I know women when they get older can be pretty tough. Well, women any age, but especially older. It's like I've seen like, you heard of Pam, what's her name, Ultra Runner? Pam Reed. Yeah. Yeah. So freaking tough. She beat me. I think at Moab, like just a few years ago.

Yeah. She did, well, with her Pam slam last year, she did like Badwater, Western States, and Hard Rock. She was that hard? Yeah. Is she 60 some? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So I mean. Like, I think like up maybe 65. Like, yeah. Yeah. So when I see women on the line of those ultras, I'm just like, okay, they're going to beat me. I mean, just so good.

But anyway, so tell me. So that was your first marathon. So that was my first marathon. Yeah. And I obviously. finish like maybe I want to do this a little bit better than this first one. Yeah. But first you're probably saying I'm never doing this again.

I honestly don't remember saying that. Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure in like the immediate minutes of crossing the finish line, I felt terrible about my life and the shape of my body. But I think also like I like to, you know, do your dog. God. I know.

I'm trying to think what to do with that freaking thing. But anyway, we just have to hopefully. He has things to say about pushing yourself running. But yeah, I think I'm someone who's always like kind of wanted to get the best out of myself. And so I liked the process of getting ready for a marathon. I liked challenging myself with trying to get to the finish line. And I think I was left like, okay, like I want to do a little bit better with this. And I think I held on to that feeling through several marathons.

Yeah. Yeah. And then did you get better? I did get better. Yeah. Like, what was your best one? What did you get to? My best one was 30801.

Oh, that's good. That's running. Yeah. It was a, you know, significant improvement. Boston Qualifier, right? Definitely best in California. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Sweet. And then did you ever do Boston? I did do Boston a couple of times. Oh, nice. I think my first Boston qualifier was in Chicago. And women's at the time, I think the Boston qualifying time was like a 340, which was exciting. It was, you know, it's running so fun, right?

Oh, yeah. One milestone and you're like, like, I think probably, cracking four hours for the first time was exciting for me and then I was kind of like oh what about Boston and then it was like what about like 3 30 and then you just keep in you know I know do now now now sub three you know I don't know if I care enough about the marathon I know I don't and they're so painful it's like you know we're so used to running in the mountains yeah and it's like it's hard of course it's still running but it's enjoyable it's not sprinting it's not sprinting Like where it hurts, every step was hurting.

I was thinking about ways I could quit and why I told people I was doing it, why I told people to track me. Yeah, the track is the worst. You're like, as you start to get hit with, this is so hard, my pace is slowing, what is even happening with my life? And you're like, and someone's watching my time. I know. I know. It's so brutal.

But, yeah, we definitely, the trails are worse out. So then how did ultra running come in? So honestly, it's really, related to the 308. So I came to Eugene. I didn't live here at the time and ran the marathon. And I actually dropped 20 minutes off my time that day. My PR going into it was like a 328.

Wow. And I ran the 308 and I was kind of like, oh, that was faster than I thought I was here in Eugene. Was here in Eugene. Nice. Yeah. And I had a friend who was into ultra running and he was kind of like, well, he just ran a fast marathon. Like maybe you should try and go a little bit longer.

And he actually, he was like, maybe you should try and go a little bit longer and try to beat me. Oh. And I liked that idea and then he didn't start the race. So that didn't happen. But I did this 50K. It was like, I think, three weeks after that marathon. And it was a 50K in Philadelphia, dirty German 50K.

Okay. And like a little urban park outside of Philadelphia. And it was such a culture shock doing a trail run coming from a road running background. Now I say these things and I'm like, it's no longer culture shock. These are like all the reasons I love trail running. but I like went to this race and I was still in this just like, you know, pace matters. What's my time? And I start running and I forgot to start my watch.

And I'm going and like, and I realized this. And so I like panic, turned to these guys next to me. I'm like, oh my God, do you know? Like how long ago did we start? And they were both like, no. And like I got to the first aid station and someone took my water bottle from me and I was like, what are you doing? And then like this weekend I ran the half marathon with my friend Allie.

And it was like the reverse culture shock of like going through the aid stations and everyone's like, you know, toss and Dixie cups back and stuff. But culture shock aside, I really loved it. And then I just quickly transitioned into trails and found that that was a new space to be like, okay, what next? What can I do? Can I do this? Can I do that? It's different. I mean, I've always said that the ultra running scene is like so I just love it.

I love the people that do those type of races. But then, you know, you do the regular marathon. I saw so many smiles and people high-fiving and it's like, it's just different. It is just, it is. But it's still good. Oh, it's all good. Yeah. I think that's a beautiful thing about running is that there's so many different ways to have a

relationship with it. And there's no right way to have a relationship with it. And you can get a lot out of it in a lot of different ways. And for some people, that's running a marathon, running faster marathons. I know. I think I'm past that point in my life where that's the relationship. I mean, and then once I started getting hooked on trails, I moved to Oregon pretty shortly after that. And then once you start running and like the cascades and, you know, game over,

I was like take roads away forever. All I want to do is like put snacks in my hydration pack and be in the mountains all day long with my friends. Yeah, it's tough to, tough to beat days in the mountains running. I mean, there's nothing, to me, there's nothing. I never feel more alive than when I'm, you know, running through the mountains. It's just like it's so simple, but it's just, I don't know, it just feels like that's how you're supposed to be living almost. It does. Yeah. It definitely does. I mean, you mentioned hard rock earlier and this is my third summer in a row doing hard rock. And when I do hard rock, I like to go like four to six weeks early and live in the San Juan. Yeah. And I bring my dog Dilly with me. And Dilley is just like this feral little animal in the

mountains like running between water sources, tail wagging. like he's never happier than he is when he's in the San Juan's just being this wild little, his name's Daly, wild little pickle. And I feel like when I look at him, I'm like, you are me. This is also how I feel. Like I never feel like more, yeah, like you said, more alive and in a more natural state than when I'm doing that. Well, that's a pretty good life. So how do you, how do you make money? Yeah, I mean, living for weeks in the mountains? That sounds good, but I'm like thinking, I wonder how I could do that, but then I remember I had bills. Yeah, so it's funny.

Hard Rock actually is what inspired me to make a radical change in how I make money, because I'm sure some of your listeners know and others don't, that it can take some years to get into Hard Rock. There's a pretty competitive lottery to get in, and it took me seven or eight years to get in from when I first entered. And as those seven or eight years passed by, I learned more about Hard Rock, and it's a very rugged race, a very difficult race. It's all at a pretty high elevation. I think the average elevation is like 11,000. You go over a 14er. The course is very rugged, very wild, like, very

challenging terrain. And I knew that a lot of people to feel ready for hard rock go and live there for a month or some weeks to really like to let your body adjust, to get experience on the course, to enjoy being in the mountains and get that. It's just like kind of a win-win-win. And so I was joked. I was like, when I get into Hard Rock, I'm going to quit my job so I can move to Silverton and didn't live that life. And then it wasn't a joke when I got into Hard Rock. I worked at the University of Oregon in the communications department for, I think five or six years. And when I got into Hard Rock, I was like, that's not going to pair well with living. With my time off. And so I'm a writer. I did a lot of writing, a lot of storytelling for the university. And I've always worked in communications.

So I had the skill set that translates really well to independent worked. And so I moved to freelance writing. And now I have a lot of flexibility and how I make money. So I still make money and pay bills. Okay. But just as a writer. But as a writer. So like what do you write for?

Or what? I mean, I still do a lot of writing for like colleges and universities doing like science writing and research writing just because, frankly, because media outlets don't pay very much. I like, like I love writing about running. I love covering running stories, but they're not going to pay the bills. And those institutions tend to have money that's not going away, and they can pay me to go and live in the mountains. That's awesome.

So I do a bunch of different. I write from sort of like the American Heart Association and different groups. Like health-related stuff or exercise? It's a mix of things. I write a lot of what they call Survivor stories. So a lot of like I've written about runners who have like a, sudden cardiac arrest, but then like a bystander knows CPR and it saves their life. So things that like raise awareness about different like risk. Yeah, right in the survivor

stories and all kinds of things, but that raise awareness about like different risk factors for heart disease and ways to keep yourself healthy and you know, I think that is interesting. I never really other than I see like these things come out like maybe on regular news fees and it'll say like too much running can be what people get so worried about all the bad things that can happen it's like you know it's hard on your heart to do cardio every day or you're going to wear out your knees or you know what I mean so it's like I don't write those stories no okay good good but I think people get so they're worried about all these things that can go wrong instead of all the incredible experiences that can have in the mountains yeah it's like

yeah shit can go wrong in their regular life Totally. You can walk out here and stop and step in dog shit. It's like, definitely. I mean, you should still go walking, right? But it's like, so I see all these things and I'm like, I read, you know, all these concerns about what you should do or what should be afraid of. And then I'm like, just get in the mountains and live.

But anyway, so I'm sure that's kind of your stories, right? Is the living part? Yeah, for sure, the living part. And I mean, I think going back to like the, what do you do for work? Yeah. That was a big thing that's kept me in this life is like I now have the agency to spend more of my days and more of my time doing what lights me up. And man, let me tell you what doesn't light me up is a cubicle from nine to five. And a fluorescent light.

Fluorescent light is no windows. I know. Dumb meetings that you don't really talk about anything. Like I, of course, I also see this other story. stuff, but I see like there's pictures of all these like office setting type things, post-it notes, the cubicle, the florettescent lines. And there's one toilet paper, like you could, is in their hand and you can just see your fingers right through it, like so thin, right?

You know, these corporations always like budget cuts and trying to keep things, cheapest toilet paper ever. And then, but so many people go to the office every day and spend most of their waking life in that setting. Yeah. That is brutal. It's not how I want to spend my life. And I mean, I did, though.

I spent some years doing that because I think also like we have to pay our bills. And I think like it was really, it was something I had thought about for a long time, but it's also it's scary. I'm sure you felt that when you were getting ready to leave your full-time job and do this. It's like there's some uncertainty there. Oh, yeah. You're kind of betting on yourself and risking some things. And it takes a little bit to work up the courage to do that and to, you know, give yourself permission to try it out.

It seems like people always say, just, you know, do whatever you're going to, you'll figure out a way. You'll make it work, right? I mean, so, but we get so worried about because you got your bills, you got, you're getting this paycheck every whatever. I was getting paid twice a month. So you know that I'm going to be able to pay my bills. And that, that kind of, that sabotages your dreams because you're like, well, I have to do this.

I would love to be able to do all this, be in the mountains all the time, but I can't. Right. So, but what I was saying is like, it seems like it always works out. You always figure out a solution, a way to make it work, to pay. If it's, if it's not that regular job, you'll figure something out, I think. I mean, I think the most freeing question for me was what is the actual worst case scenario? Like quitting my job, it was like, well, the worst case scenario is like, it doesn't work out. I have to maybe go back to a cubicle at some point, but like there are other jobs out there.

Yeah. But like the worst case scenario was not actually that bad. Right. You know? Like it was like and the possibility was really good. Yeah. And so it was like, yeah, it's worth, you know, maybe needing to go back to full-time employment at some point to try. Yeah.

And to like, yeah, see like, and I have figured. I'm like, I'm never going back. I'll figure it out. So how long has been since you quit the university then? Two years. Two years. Okay. And you've just been living in the happiest I've ever been in your van. Yeah. Not full time. But in the San Juan's we have lived in, we have a minivan.

Nice. We converted into, we have like a little bed platform in there. And we got it lifted at a garage in Albany. So we have a little clearance on the Colorado roads. Sweet. Yeah, I feel like it's like the most underrated adventure, Hobiel, the minivan. Those mounds, I mean, there's nothing like them. You know, we're lucky to live here. We have a lot of variety. all four seasons and it's beautiful, it's rainy, it's sunny.

It's, I love it. I've lived here my whole life. But Colorado has to be second because it's so incredible. Those big peaks and so many incredible mounds to run. It's just endless. And it's, it's so wild. And it's, there aren't a lot of people there. It's pretty easy to just get into some alpine territory and not see anyone else all day.

We have one of my friends and I last year when we were on a long run. Our motto of the day was no bad miles. Like they don't make you work to get somewhere stunning. You just kind of are like in it and just spoiled by beauty everywhere that you look. Yeah. And it's just endless.

Yeah, it's incredible. What's your favorite run there? Hard rock. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's, but like if you had to pick, like to run to a peak or to do a run for a day, what would you say? Oh my goodness.

I don't even know. I mean, I would, if I was giving a recommendation to someone, I would say to go somewhere on the hard rock course. But, I mean, Grant Swamp Pass above Island Lake is like kind of an iconic shot of hard rock, this lake just, you know, blue that doesn't feel real with a little island in it framed by these just wild, rugged mountains. I love, Handy's Peak is the 14er on the course. And I really, I really love going up and over that. But there's so many basins that are just in like the wildflower situation at that time. Oh, yeah. It's like, it's dumb.

Is there thunderstorms come through? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the race that's happened? Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be intense, right?

They're real intense. Yeah. I know. Isn't that like the, it's such a wild card too because it can be the way runners get spread out there. I mean, one group could get pounded. in the other group, nothing. Totally. I mean, it's just such a game of chance.

And you can be in like very different spots. Like I think the two years ago we got hit by a thunderstorm and I was running down this gravel road toward the town of ERA. And it was unnerving. Like I'm sure you've been in high alpine thunderstorms before and like you don't want to mess around with them. Right. But there were people who were higher up the climb like on the pass.

We're behind us and that felt like a really bad spot to be. Oh, yeah. that we're coming down from. It's this aid station called Kroger's canteen. And it's basically just this like little ledge on a mountain pass. Like it's, there's an aid station there, but it's like some very competent mountaineers and runners, like hike in a couple of things.

But it's really just this like tiny little platform like at a 13,000 foot pass. And that's not where you want to be when the thunder's strength. You don't be on top of the mountain. No. Not, yeah, a wide open ridge. where you're the conduit for the lightning. Yeah, that's intense.

I remember I did Crazy Mountain a couple years ago. And I made it off the pass, but some people just got pounded. There had to come up and over. And it was, yeah, I was just thinking to myself, man, that was just a game of chance, basically, that I came over at the time I did. And they got, you know, just, I mean, soaking wet and freezing. When you're already kind of depleted

because you've been pushing at that time, I think it was about 50-some miles. So, you know, you already have things going wrong. You don't need more things to pile on like that. But, yeah, that's the mountain, so, you know, so unpredictable. Yeah, that's part of why we like them. Yeah. So with Hard Rock, too, have you done, how many ultras have you done?

Oh, I don't know. A lot? Can you tell me how many you've done? No. Well, no, maybe 40. I don't know. I'm actually I don't know maybe I was looking at marathons yeah whatever yeah I don't know that I've been doing them for about I think that 50k was in 2012 or 13 so I'm a little over 10 years into the sport so I've done a number but I would say that there was a time earlier in my ultra running that I did races with greater frequency and I think now I mostly just have like one or two a year that I care about and I care about. out and then I like mostly just go on big runs with friends.

Yeah, I know. That's as much fun as anything. I like it. Not for the same reasons you do. I like it because I'm old and slow. And so it's like if we're having fun, it's like it's not as bad as when I'm trying to push and I hurt and it sucks. So I'm like, let's just have an adventure.

So that's where, have you done the Grand Canyon? Yeah, a few times. Yeah, that's fun. Have you done it? Yeah. Yeah, it is. Me and Courtney did that one time, rim to rim to rim. And that was, yeah, stuff like that is just, it's as good as racing.

It is. The Grand Canyon was actually the first, like, adventure, what I would call an adventure run that I did. And I was like, I think I went home and Googled like best adventure runs because and started my list because it was so cool to see, especially like the Grand Canyon, there's something so cool about being able to look at a natural feature and be like, this is like to zoom out and to appreciate like, I'm going into that ditch, I'm running across it, going back up and then doing it all again. and like seeing what it is that you're doing.

It's the same thing with like, I don't know if you've done some of the circumnavigations around the volcanoes like Mount HUD or... I haven't, no. Cam, you've got to do those. I did Bigfoot 200, so it kind of goes around St. Helens. Yeah. But not all the way.

But not complete. You got to do one of the... Because it's just like, it's the same idea where like you look at these volcanoes that we see all the time on the skyline. Yeah. And to run, to do this like complete, satisfying thing where you're like getting this really like up close and personal foot tour of these landmarks.

It's just like I think it's one of the coolest ways to run. Yeah, my brother Taylor, he was trying, I think last year trying to get me to do St. Helens because I think it's, is it 48 miles or something? I was like 31 or two. Oh, okay. Yeah. That's not too bad. But no, I haven't.

But I love adventure like that. So I need to do find more cool stuff. Yeah. What other races besides hard rock is like on your bucket list? You know, I feel like I don't have a great bucket list of races. I would really like to do some of the longer stuff. I'd like to, I think 200 miles. We were talking about this a little bit with Ben.

I think 200 miles would be a really fun distance. I think like, and I mean, any of them would be great. Tor, Dajon kind of stands out as one because I think that's almost like hard rock in 200 mile form. I think it's super, super mountainous. Maybe even that's making it sound easier than it is to call it Hard Rock in 200 form. Where is it? It's in the Italian Alps. Yeah, okay.

I was going to say it's not here. No, it's not here. But the ones that are here also, I think, would be really fun to do. I think that distance seems really interesting because it introduces so many more factors into how you can be successful or how you can get through it. Because with hard rock, do you just push through that? Yeah. It's just one night for you.

I mean, how long do people have? Forty-48. Oh, so it could be two nights, I guess. Yeah, and I've gone to Golden Hour the last two summers that I finished it, which is from like 5 to 6 a.m., the second morning after the run starts. And when you think about what it means to runs, because I don't think many, I'm guessing they're not really napping either and that they're just like pushing through. It's tough.

That's so incredible. I'm like, you are the real heroes of this race. That is so much harder than. It is. Then doing it and like, I mean, I'm impressed when Killian finishes it and whatever. I forget what his time was, like 23 hours or something absolutely silly. But it's like, I mean, that's impressive too, but like 48 hours is. Two nights out there.

Yeah. That might wow me more. I know. It's like I, you know, you even see like with the Eugene Marathon, there's people finishing two hours and something. And then there's people seven hours. And it's like, you're looking like seven hours. Yeah. Is it grind.

Yeah. So yeah, you got to give respect to the people that sprinted basically. Totally. But also the people at the end, they've been out on that course. We're sticking it out and like that's, it's hard. It's very hard. To keep doing something that feels hard for that many hours. Yeah.

And I see like on those 200, sometimes they have like the time limit is 112 hours or whatever. It's like four and a half days. Four and a half days? Yeah. Is it grind? I mean, you've done it. Yeah. You finished in?

I did like seven. 78 hours both times. I'm trying to think of the math of that as like three-ish days? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little over three days. But that's a long time.

It's a long time to spend out there. What hits me like when I'm sure we'll talk about this, but like when I did the run that the book is about running across the Oregon PCT, a thing that like was so crazy to think about was like when I started the run, I was like, my friends are like going to drink coffee and go to work and. and come home and go socialize, maybe watch a TV show, read a book, go to bed,

do it again the next day, and like, I'm just going to be running. Yeah, you're doing the one thing. And I feel like the 200 miles, it must be like that. I mean, other people are doing all these things with their time, and you're just running for a long time. Yeah.

I mean, you've tracked people in those races, though. So you get kind of addicted to tracking. Totally. Yeah, and you're watching, like, if Courtney's running, running or whatever. I'm always watching. Then I'm looking, you know, oh, she closing on this person. Or I remember Taylor did Cocodono. And he, I think he wanted to quit, but he didn't quit. So he stuck with it. And then he was like, got a second win or maybe fourth, fifth wind and was

reeling people in. And you get addicted to watching, you know, the updates on there. Like, oh, my God, could he catch whoever the next guy? But it's pretty fun. And then at the same time, you're like, living your life and you have this appreciation for how long he's like out there because you're like, I've done a lot. I know. They're just running. Yeah. Yeah. It's insane. Well, yeah, so let's, I want to talk about this. So to the gorge is your book, running grief, resilience, and 460 miles on the Pacific Crest Trail. So did what you did you run, did you run south to north or north to south? Okay. So California to Washington through Oregon on the Pacific Crest Trail. Yeah. 460 miles. And what was, were you going after a record or? It was, yeah. Okay. So what was a record? The record was held by

Brian Donnelly and it was seven days in 20. I'm going to get it wrong. I should have this memorized. It was I think seven days in 23 hours or 22 hours. So just under eight days. And then I don't remember the exact women's record, but I think it was about a day behind that. Okay. And how did you select this to do? What was your thought? Well, I mean, it's kind of like what we were talking about earlier with, I mean, trail running is discovering Oregon is such a part of my trail running is what got me hooked on trail running. And I actually remember when I moved, shortly after I moved out here and I was getting all like, I felt like a kid in a candy shop with trails out here and the places you could go run. And I remember stumbling upon Brian Donnelly's run report. I think he set the record in like 2013. And I just devoured it. and was like, this is the coolest thing. Yeah. To cover, the same thing we were just talking about with the volcano.

I was like to cover this beautiful place on foot and to get to see it in such like an up close and personal way to have this like this experience, this way of experiencing it in your body that I think so few people get to have. Felt really alluring. But then I did the math on how many miles he ran a day. Yeah. And I was just getting into ultra running then. And it just was like, wow, that's bonkers. Yeah.

Because it was just under 60 miles, I think, a day. Yeah. And that felt like a lot for where I was at the time. Definitely. But then when I decided to do this run, so my mother, who I talked about earlier, passed away from a rare uterine cancer in January 2020. And my mom, beyond getting into running at the age of 50, was remarkable and inspiring in so, so many ways. She also learned how to swim when she turned 60 so that she could do her first

triathlon. We talk about being impressed with what we see 60-year-old women doing on the start line. It also like watching my mother learn to swim as a 60-year-old woman so she could do triathlons. She also went skydiving on her 60th birthday to celebrate, which is also. I have since then gone skydiving myself and I have even more appreciation for how. wild it was that my 60-year-old mother celebrated her birthday that way. And she also, she lived through her diagnosis with just remarkable strength, courage, joy. She really refused to let the darkness of cancer define her life and really fought to still have a beautiful life in ways that she could and continued to live in this bold, brave, wholehearted way that she always had. And while she was

sick, I was running a 100 mile. I was running Cascade Crest in the Washington Cascades. And it was my third time doing it. And while I was running, my mom was back in Vermont gearing up for a clinical trial because her chemotherapy hadn't worked. And she was, I think she had just gotten back from going to Maine with her girlfriends to like eat lobster rolls and like run along the beach and just like still, I don't know, just still fighting for her, for the light, for a beautiful life. And, and I'm at Cascade Crest, and I'm, I'm up on a ridgeline. And I just start thinking about, like, what does this run look like for me today? And I recognize that, like, I wasn't running in the way that we've been talking about.

I wasn't, it was my third time at this run. I think it was my fifth 100-mileer. And I was like, I have no, I had no question when I started this run about whether I could get to the finish line. Like I'm not pushing myself to see what I can do today. I'm doing something I know I can do. Right. And playing it safe.

I was playing it safe. I was super comfortable. And I hated that. And especially like this woman who had inspired me to get into the sport and had really like helped me chase that relationship with running where you're not playing it safe. And like while she's in the, you know, in the thick of the hardest thing of her life and still living in a really brave, bold way, I was just like, what am I?

doing. What am I doing with my life, my running? And when she passed away a few months later, I just was like, I need to change that. And I want to celebrate her by running in a way that my mom would and that she has made me love. And so I was like, I need to do this big, bold, brave run and running across Oregon and trying to do it faster than anyone else felt like it checked the boxes I was looking to check. Yeah. That's, you know, you know, we kind of get celebrated for doing, you know, you could say marathons are hard things, the ultras are hard things. So you kind of get celebrated. And I've, I've even wondered myself, it's like people say, you know, they might say, well, you're tough because you could do this.

But then I was like, am I tough? Because I can be the biggest pussy ever if I'm like, why do I have a cold and I'm supposed to go on, you do this race, right? And so then I think about people like your mom who it's not a cold this is like life life and death yeah and still that's being tough to me because it's still out there living giving everything to whatever however many days they have left and just living at the most pure highest level that's tough and I'm like I don't even know if I'm tough because I let little things affect like you know you go on a run or like I said different things of your day and then but I think it's stories like like this and like you're telling about your mom that gives me perspective anyone I hope other people perspective that you know obviously life's not

guaranteed but there's something beautiful about just giving every day all you got yeah right and And it's the example of your mom set for you. And then you tried to live up to that. So how did, I was just, it kind of got distracted because you were saying they went out with their friends and going on a run. And then she died pretty soon after that. Yeah. It was.

It was a rapid downward spiral. She did a couple of clinical trials. She went on a 40 mile bike ride, maybe two, two and a half months before she died. But then it just happened really fast. and it was very clear that she was going to die. And it was, I will say that her, when she was diagnosed, it was not a super hopeful diagnosis. It was the kind of cancer that by the time it gives you any sign, it's there.

It's too late almost. Yeah, it's advanced. And so it was, there was always some, I don't want to say inevitability, but I felt like there was always some, I guess there's an inevitability to all of us dying. But her diagnosis felt like we, I knew I was going to lose my mother decades sooner than I thought I would. And, you know, she knew that too, obviously. Yeah, that is, yeah, I don't even know.

You kind of, I had tried to trick myself in the saying that like when my friend here died, this, you know, we talk about legacy and remembering people and why it's important. But this is my friend who got me started in bow hunting and this is him. here. He was, this is a picture. We were walking on that moose hunter. And he died a couple weeks later. So I was like, you know, you get in your head and he's like, well, he died at his absolute best doing what he loved on the mounds and fell, right? So you're like, oh, there's something beautiful about that. But then my dad had cancer like your mom and it wasn't quick. And it wasn't like doing anything he loved. He was in a bed, you know, dying of cancer. But then there's also, so if you, if you trick yourself into like, well, what's the positives of this?

Well, we had so many talks that we wouldn't have had because we knew this was coming. And everybody knows they're going to die, but we don't think about it, right? We pretend like we're going to live forever. But when they get that diagnosis or you, it's pretty clear. So that it allows you to, you know, there's no words left unsaid. So there's something beautiful about that. You know, I mean, it's cut way short and we lose, we lose these people that we love.

much sooner than we'd like. But like with my dad, I know I had more time. Like regular life is just busy. People get wrapped up and doing their own thing. But I didn't. I made sure I had time because I knew what was coming. And so, I mean, there's no easy way to navigate death. I'm like, what's the, you know, is it?

Yeah, what way? How do you reason it? You can't really. Yeah. But, so your mom passed away. And then how soon after did you start your run? What was that like? She passed away in January 2020.

And I did this run in August, beginning of August 2020. So I don't know what the, I'm so bad at math. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, seven months, eight months. Sure. And did you tell her that you were going to do this? I did. I, you know, you're saying, as you're talking about, like, making sure nothing is left unsaid,

I had a very, my, I had gone back to Vermont when my mom's health took a, took a turn for the worst. And I was there for probably three weeks. And then it seemed like she probably was going to, her doctors thought, like, oh, she might have, like, another month left. And, like, you should go back to Oregon. And then, you know, talked to my mom. She was like, you should go back to Oregon. and then, you know, you'll have time, come back.

And so I had driven there because I also had a very old dog that I didn't want to leave behind. And I had driven from Oregon to Vermont with him. And so then we turned around to drive back to Oregon. And I, it was a, we very much accelerated this trip across the country. And I think we were in Idaho, like a day and a half after leaving Vermont or something, like basically had just driven straight through nights. And I was in a grocery store parking lot in Idaho when my brother called me and said things have changed. And she had been moved to hospice. And she was still alert and conscious, but it seemed like she was going to die within some days.

And so I got back to Oregon and got on a plane and headed back to Vermont. And I had so much anxiety about and fear of not getting there in time to save my life. ask goodbyes. And when I got there, she had not been responsive to communication earlier in the day. And my brother had told me that, that, like, I might not make it back there in time to have a conversation with her. And I got there kind of in the middle of the night. And I, like, bent down by her bedside and told her I was there. And she blinked her eyes open at me. And they met mine. I choose to believe she saw me in that moment. And then they, the hospice nurses told me that hearing is the last sense that you lose before

you die. And so I talked to her, even though she didn't talk back. And when I had some of those last conversations, some of those last words that I said to her, I did tell her that I was going to do this run for her. and just like I choose to believe that her eyes met mine and saw me get there in time. I also, I want to believe that she heard me tell her that. That's so hard.

Yeah. It is so hard to. I mean, it's crazy that everybody's going to go through it, but it doesn't make it an easier. No. And it's just, it feels like, it can feel like your heart is actually breaking. the pain. I mean, for me, I can't speak for anybody else, but it's like, man, I'm sorry. I'm sorry

for your losses too. I agree. I feel like the morning that I woke up after my mom died, I felt like my heart was physically broken and that it was like shards of glass inside of me that were like piercing every breath that I took. It felt like there was, yeah, that it was, that her death had had done something to my heart. Yeah, so since that time, have you turned it into strength? Has it made you stronger?

I mean, I think it inevitably does. I think that probably any time that we have to go through something like that, because, I mean, I think about like that morning, And it felt unbelievable to me that I could ever do anything other than breathe through that pain. And maybe not even that. That like it felt like there was a hole inside of me and that there was no way to move forward with such intense pain and loss. And I'm like pointing to myself right now because I feel like I can still like revisit that feeling.

and yet like we somehow do keep going through that stuff. And I think when we see ourselves do that, that it probably instills this strength in us and this like understanding that we can get through more than makes sense. But it's tough because it's like it's a strength that like I'm hesitant to celebrate because like sucks. Yeah. You don't want to go through that shit.

And you don't want to like, and I think like, you know, I've, in this book touches on, you know, it talks about the death of my mom. But it also tells the story of my sister-in-law, Jess, my brother's wife, passed away from cancer a few months after my mom did. And they were diagnosed around the same time. And their illnesses followed the same kind of rapid downward spiral. And I think like when you tell someone who's going through. that like if I tell my brother in that moment, like, you can get through this, you're so strong. I think like that sometimes doesn't land in a way that you're kind of like, I don't want to be strong.

Like I want my wife back. I want my mom back and, you know, fuck strength. And so I have mixed feelings about like the way I think about how much strength I've gotten from going through this stuff or someone gets through going through this stuff. Because it's like you don't have a choice either. Right. You just kind of have to keep going. You do.

I mean, I do think people, I don't want to say, I don't know how to say it, but some people don't. So whether you say it made you stronger or not, this is fine. And I totally get that. But some people get weaker because of it. Some people lean into self-medicate. or this death, which is always hard, has these ripple effects negatively, you know, in people's lives.

And you see them, you're like, man, what happened to whoever? It's like, oh, since his mom died or dad died or brother, it's always, oh, okay, and they went to a bad way, you know. So it's, yes, we are survivors, and we have either you survive or you don't. But yeah, I get what you're saying about you'd rather not have to be tough in those situations. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, right, you want to do anything you can to change what's happening. And I think they do, like, I mean, I can say that I would do anything to get my mom back. And also her death has changed me in ways that I think make me into a better human, which probably includes being a stronger human. I think you do learn what resilience you have inside of you when you have to go through something like that. And I think you're right that there are definitely different ways to there are different paths that you can take through,

through hard things, through loss, through grief. And yeah, that is absolutely a true thing. Well, I mean, if we're looking to honor people we love that we've lost in their memories, you honor them by doing good things, doing good work, being a good person, good person, positively impacting society or something else. We're not really honoring them if we're drinking every day because they're drinking every day because they died, you know, and their lives in shambles. That's not really the honor. If we truly want to honor their legacy, this is how you do it. Yeah. And I think it goes back to, too, that like you were talking about

when my mom was was strapped with this life-ending diagnosis that she chose to keep living. And I think that that's the same question that we have to answer when we're going through loss or grief is like there are different ways to keep living. And one of them is to like drink away our days or live in a hole, like go hide in the closet and never let anything touch us again.

Or we can kind of be like, yeah, life's not a guarantee. but we do get to choose what we do with the days that we have and how we live. And I think that that is a thing that we can do to celebrate our loved ones, especially the ones who live like that. I'm sure that it's Roy, right? Roy, yeah. Yeah, I'm guessing that Roy was the type of person who lived in a very full way. No, definitely.

It's, you know, and, yeah, I just know there's times, and I'm, so I want to hear this from your perspective, but I know there was times. I remember specifically I was running like an old game farm road sunglasses on running good Then I started thinking about my dad and I'm like What the fuck? How is everything? Nothing has changed all these people are driving by Same shit going on every day people are getting mad because they're trying to get a coffee somebody's in the way And but my dad's gone and it's like how come nobody's

nobody's like noticing and it i just remember crying running and crying definitely didn't feel strong so i was like fuck it's just i don't know but and but i don't think that to to to grieve it means not being strong no i i know i was just like i i think being i wasn't being strong and how i was like thinking about how other people should be impacted by my law You know what I mean? Like kind of being not a baby, but like just, I don't know what. It's just weird. Just like it has such a crazy effect on you, you know?

It does. And it's, I don't know. I mean, like I said, it can be positive or negative or maybe some people just are both at times. But so, yeah, I mean, did you have, were you by yourself mostly on this? No, I was really well supported. Oh, okay, okay. But I'm sure you had moments where you're thinking about your mom. Oh, all the time.

Yeah. Yeah. So tell me about, yeah, the run. Yeah. Where do you want me to start? A seven-day, 19-hour run. So you did beat the record. I did beat the record.

Okay. Yeah, I set the overall record. Because I haven't read the book yet, so I didn't know. But, well, that's cool. Yeah. Beat the freaking record. Holy shit. So that was seven days.

How many, you said it's 60 miles a day about? It was about that. seven days, 19 hours, 22 minutes or something. And how did it? So tell me about it. Yeah, I mean, so I wanted to do the hardest run of my life. And I got that. Yeah.

Check. Check. Check that. Is that still the FKT? It's not anymore. Just the summer. Oh, it got beat. Yeah.

Yeah. All records are mid. Yeah. By a man. So now I guess I have the women's records still. But, yeah. Wow. Yeah.

So you got going. You were supported. You had a plan. And how did that first day go? The first day, I think overall went pretty well. I definitely, I think, had to confront some overwhelm in the first steps of the run. You know, you're leaving the California border. Yeah.

And you're thinking, I'm going to run across the state of Oregon, which isn't a particularly small state. No, that's a grind, yeah. It's not Vermont. Is Vermont small? That's pretty small. I think it's probably like half the length of. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of little small states over there.

Yeah. We got the bigger ones over here. But yeah. So yeah, you start off and you're like a 460 whatever miles like that seems like a lot of miles and the longest I'd ever run and was 100 miles. So it was quite the jump to try and do it. And then I was also like, and I'm going to try and do it faster than anyone. And just the, I think I didn't even know how to process that goal because it was so outside of anything I'd done before. So I think some of my first steps, I was just like, who is?

hell do I think I am like what am I doing out here and I remember being at like a mile I don't know 17 or something which isn't a small number of miles like usually when I run 17 miles I feel like yeah put down some miles and I could see pilot rock um you know in the cascade Ciskew area it's kind of like you know bridge line over it'll look really far away and pilot rock was like half of the first day and I was just like okay like this is what this is going to feel like it's um I'm always going to feel or that I'm going to need to deal with just the immensity of this run, just continuing to run into it, to run into that immensity.

But I think that there was also something very, like, lovely about starting, I had been building up to it for months. There had been so much, you know, training and planning. And then I started running and I was just like, you know, this is what I'm doing now. I'm just one foot in front of the other on this strip of dirt that goes all the way from Mexico to Canada and that I'm going to run all the way from,

California to Washington. And, you know, I, I am someone who knows how to self problems. I'm someone who knows how to keep going and I know things are going to get tough, but like we'll figure it out and just, you know, right foot, left foot, right foot left foot. And felt like after, you know, after everything I'd gone through with grief, that it just was like, and was still going through, like, this is a simple thing, you know, one foot, two foot, one foot. And are you religious at all? Do you have faith? I'm not really religious. Were you talking to your mom?

Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm not religious, but there's definitely something spiritual that I believe in. Like when my sister-in-law passed away, Jessica, her family had held on, you know, we often associate different things with our loved ones. And her family, she had lost two aunts, two sisters of her father, and her family had attached dragonflies to these sisters. And on the day that Jess died, we were in Burlington, Vermont, on a hill above Lake Champlain. It was this kind of like cloudy day. But as Jess's body left and we kind of like lined this walkway with candles and we had written her letters and we went to the hillside while her body was driven away. And the sun poked through the clouds and two dragonflies flew down and twirled and flew after the car.

Whoa. And it's just like... That's powerful. It's something. You know, it is powerful. There's something. Yeah. I was just, I was curious because, you know, whether it's faith or religion or whatever

we call it, or, you know, I didn't know if you were talking to your mom, you know, like believing that there's something there, just like your dragonfly story. Yeah. Because there's something that connects us. Absolutely. I spent a lot of time talking to her, thinking about her. And I mean, the beautiful thing about running is it's where I feel closest to her. And it feels like it's this way that.

I think like when we lose someone that is so important and so special to us, we're like, we're left, like our grief is our love, right? Like we feel it's like a direct reflection of how much love we have for someone. And when you feel like your heart is literally broken inside of you, it's because you had so much love for that person. And you're like, what do I do with this love other than like letting it just, you know, kill me from the inside out? And I feel like running is a place that I get to put that love for my mom.

And the run felt like this is a way that I am like continuing to show love to my mom. And it was, that run was very charged by my love for my mom, by wanting to find a way to stay close to her and stay connected. And so I felt like she was close. And throughout really everything. You know, I think life is so full distractions. But when you're running in the mountains, just like we've talked about. and you were doing there. There can never be fewer distractions.

You can never be more connected. And it's like that's when you're going to feel that love because it's like there's real. It's raw. It's the only thing there. So I get that when you run, you definitely feel that love for your mom. And yeah, it's, you know, my brother lost his son. He crapped, you know, whatever drunk driving.

Anyway, on some of these big runs, he'll take his ashes. And it's still like, it's still, it, when I see Taylor, it's like, it feels like he just heard that Donovan died. You know, I mean, you look, it's like so fresh and so, and it's meaningful. But to me, that's almost, that's good in a way. It's good to feel that much love again. And you say, you say grief is a measure of love. So to feel that grief again. because it's just you're right.

That's love. It is. And so it's like, I think there's something, I think it's good to just have to navigate that and just know what it feels like. You know, nobody ever wants to feel anything or are afraid of feeling too deeply. But man, if you're not and you can,

that's life. I mean, something beautiful and painful about it, And I think it's part of the living life to the fullest that we've been talking about. I think to love someone that deeply is part of living life to the fullest. And I think letting yourself feel the intense grief from losing that person is like that's part of it. Like what would it look to play it safe and protect ourselves from, you know, to be like, I don't want to have a friend as close as Roy because, you know. No.

You'd definitely rather to have that. You wouldn't treat it for anything. And I think part of the deal of. that is the part of the deal of having such a meaningful friendship is the chance of that horrific horrific heartbreak. But like it's you want to live the life where you have that that Roy. Yeah. And being in the mountains and being able, like it's a place where you can, you can feel some of these things and access that love and that grief. I think I really found that after losing my mom that like you were talking about running after losing your father and how

like being mad like everyone else is just the world is spinning. They're going to getting coffee and like I have all this grief inside me and it's like we don't have many spaces where we're really encouraged or allowed or given the space to feel this intense grief. Like if you work a job, you probably just have to keep going to your job and pretend that you're not torn up inside and, you know, a lot of people are really uncomfortable with being close to those kind of feelings. And I feel like being in the mountains, being outdoors, I think being like running. I think those are places where we strip away all this bullshit

and we can feel what we feel. I mean, think about doing like a 100-mileer and how like people aren't hiding how they're feeling. You know, like they're letting it all come out. And I think it's so beautiful that running is a sport where we create that space for people to just like be going through whatever they're going through it to say like it's okay. Like this is hard.

You're going to feel all these feelings and it's okay to. And everybody gets it. Everyone gets it. Because they're going through the same thing in the wrong way. Yeah, everyone gets it. So you're not being judged. No, no one's judging you. No one's saying stuff that back inside.

But like in the cubicle, they're saying stuff that back inside. Yeah. And they're like, God, did you see Emily over there? She lost their shit. You know, but in the map, it's just like everybody's losing their shit in one way or another at different times of a race. You know what I mean? And it's fine. It's like, we love it.

Yeah, we do. That's like, oh, yeah, okay. And you said it, Courtney says it, but you're problem solving. So it's just like there's always these little things you have to address. Nobody's just pretending like everything's perfect. It's just like, no, here's this new challenge. And it's okay. It's okay.

We're so honest with our feelings. It's okay to be having a hard time. It's okay to be feeling defeated, to be in pain to like whatever's coming up. It's, we don't judge it. We create space for each other to feel it. We say me too. Like we've all been there and there's this compassion that that is hard to find in other places in life. And it's like, I think the biggest lesson too is like I know what I've told people during big runs like that.

And what I need to remind myself of is it doesn't last. You know, and that's like almost like life and I don't know in a smaller sample size. But yeah, it's going to hurt. It's going to suck. But it doesn't last. you'll get through this pain. And I remember too, it's like I was getting, for some reason, I was having so many people contact me about their contemplating suicide and this and that.

And so I had to ask a doctor, what do I tell these people? I'm a bow hunter. I fucking don't know what to tell people who are depressed. And they just said, just buy them some time. Just say you're going to check in with them like in five hours or later that night. And then they can, you know, because people get in this trough. And it's like they're down there. think they're never getting out of it and then that's when they do it. That's when they're just like,

I can't deal with this pain anymore. It's never going to, it's never going to get better. And it always gets better. They always come out of that. So in races, we tell ourselves that, yeah, it's next aid station, one step at a time. And there's times when you feel like you can't, you know, a 30-minute mile is hard. And then all of a sudden you're running an eight-minute mile. And what changed? Nothing changed. It's just you got through it. And that's life. So it's like we, life will kick you in the balls for sure.

But it's like, we're going to get through it. And that's what I love about endurance events, but also it's like just a good reminder that we're going to be okay. It's true in both life and running. One of the things, I reached out to Brian Donnelly who held the record before I did the run and just told him like, you know, I've been

admiring your record for like seven years now and I'm going after. and I asked him, you know, do you have any, like, trail wisdom to pass my way? And he said, remember that time and distance are sanctuaries and everything that goes wrong will change. And I love that. And I think it's so true. You might have to translate that.

I'm not smart enough to figure that. Just time and, both time and distance are going to give you, anything that goes wrong has time and distance to change. Everything will change. It was the message behind those words. to hold on to like you have yeah there's space for everything that goes wrong to change and in our like our friend Ben just at his first 100 miler and he came into an aid station I could tell he was like it was his first 100 who jumped essentially from the 1500 meters

to 100 milers which is quite the leap and he was maybe not even halfway through and I could just see him kind of being like uh oh like why do I feel like this and I was just like how you feel right now is not going to last right? And that's true in running. And it's true in grief. You get bogged down by like, you feel like this is forever and like how can I keep living like this forever? And it changes.

Everything. Yeah. And you'll get pulled down again. You know, you'll be like, and that's why like, like, you also want to kind of like hold on to the highs lightly in running too. It's like, and in life that those will also change. And like you're going to get pulled down again. Unfortunately.

Yeah. You know, not to let that boggy down. What was during these seven days, what was your low point? I think my low point was, I mean, I had multiple lows, obviously, but probably the hardest day for me was my sixth day on the trail. And I was doing this in August. And when I left for the run, the forecast was like, you know, sun, summer, dry, easy conditions. And on the sixth day of my run, an alpine storm rolled in that was just one of the more brutal weather systems that I've been in and certainly been in for that amount of time. It was like, I think the temperature must have been like 34 and a half degrees or something where it's like just above snowing.

And it's just that icy rain that you feel like you can feel it in like the marrow of your bones. Yeah, I think you can. And the wind was so fierce that it would sometimes like almost topple me off a ridge line. I'd have to like balance my body on the ground, like put my hand down on the ground to to stay upright. And it was, and yeah, just like the cold, the wet, the wind, I felt like I had never been so irreparably like uncomfortable in my life. And it was also a day where it was going from McKenzie Pass to the other side of Mountain

Jefferson. So I was going by Mount Washington, Three Finger Jack, and Mount Jefferson. And that terrain is all very like open, alpine. You're just, you're in it. There wasn't a lot of protection. There was like nowhere to hide from this storm. It's right on there on Timberline kind of right. Or is it above Timberline? It's above tree line. Yeah, tree line. Yeah. Yeah. It's basically all above tree line. So all exposed. All exposed. Yeah. And the weather usually comes in from the west. I don't know. but I don't know where the storm probably didn't matter the storm felt like it was coming

from every direction like up below every side was that were you trying to do most we were trying to sleep at night or? I slept a little bit

I did I slept every night maybe it varied a lot like that day took me until I think I finished at 4.30 in the morning or something to get your miles in for the day yeah other days I feel like I got more like four hours of sleep

or I basically had like a plan for how many miles I wanted to cover a day. And if I finished them in 16 hours, I was done then. And if I finished them in 22 hours, I was getting less sleep. Yeah. Because I got less sleep that night. Yeah, yeah. But then you were on the home stretch after that night, pretty much, right?

You know, Kim, it didn't feel like the home stretch. I didn't. I know, because you mentioned where you were. I was like, still away from Washington. We're still over 100 miles from Washington. Yeah. Yeah. I really didn't feel like I was on the home stretch until I don't know.

I could see the bridge. Yeah. It felt like the home stretch. Yeah. The last day I felt buoyed by, I really, I didn't feel like the record was, I mean, it's never a guarantee, but it was such a push to both finish the run and to set the record that until I woke up on that, not woke up, I think I laid horizontally for like an hour just thinking about the run.

But when I got out of the van that I was sleeping, and that morning and I think I don't remember exactly what distance I had to cover like 55 miles and I had you know I think 20 or something hours to do it and I was like I like I'm yeah I was like I'm gonna get like like unless I like roll an ankle or something like I felt like that day was like I'm doing this fucking doing this. Finally you felt it felt kind of closer I felt closer yeah because it's just like so much can go wrong yeah I mean think about even just like a run that gets like you know totally derailed by your bad stomach.

How were your feet? Were your feet torn up? They were not something you would want to show your listeners on video or photo. They were pretty bad. Pretty bad. Yeah, very, I don't know.

I feel like I work to manage the blister situation, but I just don't know how you like stop them from happening with that many days. Not that many steps. I mean, that's the thing. So 60 miles, I mean, it's like what's 120,000 steps roughly every day. It's going to take a toll on your feet no matter what you do.

Yeah. And I did. I actually had to wear bigger shoes. Yeah. Because my feet like swelled. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Man. So how did, I mean, how did that feel to finish that when you finally did? I mean, was that you achieved your goal. You got the record. You honored your mom. What was that like? It's hard to put it into words. I felt so many things when I finished it.

You asked me if I talked to my mom. I feel like the last day as I knew I was going to do it. And the whole run, it felt, my steps felt charged by my desire to do this run for her. Like, I imagine if you went out and you wanted to do a hunt for Roy, I don't know what that would, I'm not a bow hunter, so I don't know what that would look like if you're trying to get an animal or cover a certain landscape. but if you were doing it for Roy, like, you would feel like every step is like matters. Yeah. And like nothing would make you quit that hunt, I bet.

Right, right. And on the last day to have gotten to that last day, to have to be, you know, within an arm's reach of the record. And to have felt like I did this for her. I, like, found this way to honor her to, like pour my love for her into something. and I'm going to do it. Like I have never wanted to call my mom so badly in my life. Like all I wanted. She was like my first call through everything that I ever did.

And all I wanted to do was call her up and tell her like, I'm going to do this run for you. And I told her in my ways that I was. But I, it was just this, it just felt everything. I felt like I missed her more than I ever had before. All I wanted to do was see her to talk to her. and I also felt like I had done this incredible thing for her. And I had found a way that felt really meaningful to work through.

I don't know if to work through some of the grief, but to, I mean, to work through some of the grief, to grieve, to like to actively grieve. It felt like I was like, the Ron was a form of grieving. Oh, definitely. Yeah. It's, yeah. Yeah. What do you think she would say to you?

when you finished. Well, she would have been out of her mind with stress for the seven days and 18 and a half hours. But she would have been so proud. She would have, she had this, like, kind of giddy smile that she would have just been, like, bouncing with, like, motherly pride. I mean, she was, I have a brother, as I've mentioned as well,

and she was our greatest cheerleader. And she, I've thought, a lot about like what she would do as I have my first book coming out and I feel like she would have already bought like 27 copies and broken the internet posting about it and I mean she would have done the same thing with this run across Oregon she would have you know been all over Facebook and a little phone tree to everyone and she yeah she would have been beyond proud well she would love seeing the event at the expo the other day or you were you were up on stage with was alley right yeah and uh

And man, huge crowd and everybody was just engaged, just sitting, sitting on the floor, seeing all the chairs are full, standing along the wall like I was. And I was just like, wow, this is impactful. So it's impactful not only because of your story, but also with the grief part of it and how honest you are about dealing with it. And then I just think that I don't know, so many people can resonate and have a connection with your story and you. And I saw it. I don't know how many people were there, but hundreds.

And it was incredible. So, I mean, if I could, I didn't know your mom, but I bet your mom would have been like beaming to be able to see that you in that moment. And, you know, everything you stand for. have poured into this book being celebrated. It was incredible. Yeah, thank you. It was incredible. It blew my mind.

It felt incredible. And it feels like a gift that I get to share my mom in this way and that I get to share stories about her. And I know she's going to move. I think like there's so many things I hope this book does. One is certainly that like I hope my mom's legacy inspires other people like it's inspired me and moves them to ask themselves these questions about how do you want to spend your days?

How do you want to spend your life? do you want to be safe and comfortable or do you want to open the door to more? And then I also, like you said, I hope, you know, we don't talk about grief super openly in many spaces and I really believe in the power of it. And I heard a lot of people stuck around afterward and told me their own everyone has stories about cancer and death. Like so many people have been devastated by this. And I really hope that people feel less alone when they read this book and, and, and, You know, we all grieve in different ways, but I hope that just, you know, reading about how someone else

has gone through grief makes them feel like they're not in the trenches alone and gives them some comfort through it and just some connection. Yeah. I think there's a lot of power in that. Yeah. Just, yeah, because everybody, when you're hurting, you feel like you're the only one hurting. Just like I was saying, I was mad at everybody else

because they weren't acknowledging my dad died. My world was upside down. But it's like you're not going through that alone. It might feel like you're alone and nobody else cares, but you're not. Everybody has to deal with this, but like I said earlier, it doesn't make it easy. So like your tools and also I think there's something,

when you feel like, okay, I can honor the legacy of this person if I live my life in the right way, there's something that it doesn't ease the pain, but it's like just directs it. And it's just like, okay, what can I pour myself into just like you did this run but not everybody's going to run across Oregon but there are ways where you can say I want to leave a positive lasting legacy for this person I lost and so that's that's a great lesson that I mean I'm sure many are going to be able to embrace but

yeah I mean what what an accomplishment what a what a journey you've been on and yeah I'm sure your mom would be very proud. I did hear, you know, you mentioned your brother too, and I met him yesterday, and I did hear there was a reference about, I think somebody said, widow or something, and I didn't really know the story about anything. So yeah, I mean, death, God, I feel bad for him now knowing that. I don't understand how, and how Jamison has gone through what he's gone through. Like I feel like the loss of my mother was like I talked about I didn't know how I was going to make it through the next breath and to think about my brother going through that. And then a few months later having to say goodbye to his wife, it's it's it does it's one of those things that you're like the world shouldn't work this way. Right.

Like we shouldn't have to go through something that this much pain. This much pain. And and yet. the world can work like that. And I think Jameson, when you were talking about the different ways that people have grieved, so many people are always asking you like how Jameson is because they know that he's been through so much. And I don't know if it always sounds weird to say this, but I'm proud of him for how he has

gone through grief because he didn't take one of those paths, like even when he was strapped with more than makes sense, with more than you feel like you could ever get through. Or you couldn't blame somebody for leaning into this. to some relief. Totally. Yeah. But he's like, you know, he really has allowed himself to feel his grief. He has found ways to, he's found so many beautiful ways to honor Jess and to honor our mom.

You saw his leg covered with tattoos, which is part of it. He's gotten some very meaningful tattoos. But he's, you know, he's always finding ways to hold them close. And I think they have really transformed how he thinks about life. And I think that it's been really, really beautiful to see. the ways that he has turned his pain into a beautiful way to live and to find ways to continue honoring these women that that were the most important people and women in his life. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, hearing that and then meeting him yesterday, then hearing your story, too, it's like I'm on the same page. I mean, it's, it seems like it's too much for one person to have to withstand, but it doesn't make sense sometimes, but here we are. It doesn't make sense sometimes, yeah. So it's like if he can, his example can help others, you know, like you and you said you've been, you know, so impressed by how strong he's been and how he's honoring them. And that's all you can do. Yeah. Yeah.

Life and death. Yeah. So I think the lesson for this is like, We need to give our best effort every day to live our best life, right? Yeah, I mean, when I started this run, so my sister-in-law, I think, was a little bit less than a year older than I am. And I'm 39 now. So when I started the run, I guess there's been so much math in this conversation. I wasn't expecting this, Kim.

I was 35 when I started the run. And so Jess was nearing 36. And she was so, she ended up passing away just, within days of me finishing the run, I basically finished the run and flew back to Vermont because we learned she was getting transition to hospice, I think maybe the day after.

But as I was standing on the California border and thinking about my sister-in-law back in Vermont who was 36 and her health was just rapidly deteriorating, you know, there's no reason it was just and not me. And there's no reason it was just period. But like that does happen. happen. Like 36-year-old women die from cancer. I mean, Jess was the most vibrant, wonderful,

beautiful soul. You would never have met her before she was diagnosed with cancer and thought, like, you're going to die within a couple of years. It doesn't make sense. You have this dreamy future with this man, Jameson. They found the lump on her breast the morning after their wedding. And again, we don't want to live in a world where that can happen, but we do live in a world where that can happen. And I do think that like when we think about how do we respond to the fact that we live in a world where that can happen, it's like we have a choice about how to spend our days. Yeah. And what to do with our lives. And we don't, we don't get to control how many days we have, but we do get to decide what we do with them. Yeah, that's, yeah, very well said. It's,

and that's why, I mean, I do, I do, yeah, I do commend how you, carried on and how strong you. I know there's times everybody's up and down, but man, every time I see you're strong and having this, you know, this big personality that's, you know, making everybody just day better or whatever, not, I mean, I don't know, I'm impressed. I think my mom also taught me when she was going through cancer,

like she lived with so much joy. And it was like to see, I felt like when she got cancer, like I should never have fun again, you know, like how can I have a fun when my mom is dying from cancer? And I think she really showed me like you've got to live with joy. Like even through the darkest, hardest times. And maybe you don't feel joy in every moment, but that you want to like, joy should be one of the North stars that like a life, a life with joy, especially through the hardest things that we go through. Like my run had a lot of joy in it. It was the hardest run of my life. But it was also a lot of fun. And there was a lot of joy in it.

So I think if you see that in me, I feel like it's a lot of my mom shining through. I do. I do. I see it. And yeah, I think that's going to inspire a lot of people. I think your lesson and your story is going to inspire a lot of people. And I know it has me and I'm super thankful you're able to come over here and we can talk about your book and your journey and your story and your mom and your brother's wife. And, you know, it's just, it is, it's an important topic, but I'm very thankful for your time. I'm really thankful that you shared your stories too, Kim. I think it's powerful when we all do that. And I appreciate that you are generous with sharing your own stories about the really special people

that you've lost. Thank you. I think that will also move people. Yeah. Well, that's all we can do, right? Is share what we go through and hopefully it has a positive impact. So I know you're you will and you have.

So next up for you is hard rock. Yeah. You're going to be relocating to Colorado and you're going to crush hard rock this year, right? That's the hope. Yeah. Yeah, heading there June 1st at the latest. I'll be there for like six weeks again, maybe a few days more.

Love it. Yeah. It's giving me a good place to be. Well, if people want to find to the gorge, I know on your Instagram, you're Emily Sweets. I am. I didn't really know your last name. I had to like look it up. You're not the only one.

I'm like, I know it's not a memoir by Emily Sweets. It's like too late to change. that it's been my, if you were like Cam bow hunting and you'd bend that forever, you'd have a hard time. You got to go with it. So where can people, your book comes out is it on the seventh? Seventh, May 7th, May 7th? Where can they pre-order? Anywhere books are sold. Okay. Yeah, all the places. And order, like, I know for like the best sellers list, bookstores always get you a little more love than like Amazon. Amazon's so easy. Amazon's pretty easy. It's pretty easy. Yeah. And it helps, but we want that You want a mix.

You want a mix. You want a mix. Yeah, if you have a favorite local bookstore, lots of people have local bookstores near them, they'd love the love and, yeah, order from them. I love bookstores personally. Same. Well, congratulations on writing a beautiful book and honoring your mother. And thank you for coming on the Keep Hammering Collective.

Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate you. Yeah, I appreciate you. Thank you, Kim. All right, guys, keep hammering.