Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 085 - Des Linden

Episode Date: July 3, 2024

Join us for a discussion with Des Linden, an American long-distance runner, author and podcast host. Des represented the United States in the 2012 London Olympics and the 2016 Rio de Janeiro Olympics women's marathon and in 2018, she won the Boston Marathon, becoming the first American in 33 years to win the women's category in the event.  Listen in as Cam and Des talk about stories from winning the Boston Marathon, qualifying for the Olympic Trials and more! Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com   Follow Des: https://www.instagram.com/des_linden Thank you to our sponsors: GoHunt: https://gohunt.com/ use code CAM when you sign up for $50 towards the gear shop + 10% off the GoHunt store Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off  Ketone IQ: https://hvmn.com/CAM use code CAM for 30% off your first subscription MUD\WTR: https://mudwtr.com/cam use code CAM for 15% off  Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping  Timestamps: 0:00:00 Intro: Who is Des Linden? 0:02:36 How Des Found Her Endurance & Training to be Fit 0:07:07 How Des Found Her Ranking in Running 0:11:06 Des’s Wins & the Olympics 0:14:29 Winning the Boston Marathon 0:27:16 Ad Break 0:29:05 When Hope is Gone in Racing 0:30:18 How it Felt to Break the Boston Marathon Tape 0:31:48 Life After Winning the Boston Marathon 0:33:44 The People Behind You in the Race 0:35:57 Weather During the Race 0:38:20 Des Linden’s Book & Podcast 0:39:37 Des’s Partnership with Brooks Running 0:41:08 “Nobody Asked Us with Des & Kara” 0:44:30 Thoughts on New Shoe Technology 0:46:58 Confidence in Racing, Performance & Nutrition 0:51:30 The Olympic Trials 0:55:52 Supporting Track Race Events 01:00:46 Qualifying in the Olympic Trials 01:02:47 Des’s Experience Shooting a Bow 01:06:35 Outro: Training for Running

Every step I take, I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel, gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I'm moving so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. All right. Welcome to the Keep Hammering Collective.

I'm here with the legend, Des Linden. How are you? Good. Thanks for having me. I was thinking about legend. I don't know if that's the right word. I think so. But I'll take it.

I think so. Oh, God, I meant to bring out your book. Yeah, so I mean, I'll just say I've been a fan and followed you, didn't really know you at all, you know, hadn't met or anything like that. And then, of course, you know, your Boston Marathon performance, everybody, it was a big deal. I think I just remember, you know, you won tough conditions. And you just kind of grinding it out and got the win. Is that how it happened? A little bit.

I mean, so not even just that, but you've been a two-time Olympian. You came out here, you set the world record, running a 50K, and 259 still stands. Correct. Yeah. So, I mean, you've been, you know, I don't know, I saw a lot of people meet you today, or not today, but this last couple days. And, yeah, I said legend, but I heard a lot of the people say, you know, you're their inspiration or, you know, all that you've added to their life, basically.

and I may have even heard legend a few times. So, yeah, I mean, a lot of people do look up to you. And, I mean, how does that feel? That's a great spot to be in. I mean, I think I don't think about perception or any outside things that you're trying to achieve except just doing the job. So it's results and accolades are not the primary focus. It's process, process.

But, you know, in doing that job, if you become. good enough at it that people recognize you for it, that's a great thing to have happened. Feels good. Yeah. But yeah, I get what you're saying. You're just going to work. Well, yeah. And it's like a very simple profession. I just go straightforward. That's it. So when you say legend, it's like I go straightforward very well. Yeah, but to do that at the pace you do, it's you know there's some pain sacrifice there's a lot involved in that it sounds simple sure sounds very simple you make it sound even more simple than it is usually or actually but uh man it's yeah i just so i'm curious you know we listed why people know who you are but how did that start i mean

how did you you said you played soccer early in life when did you realize you had this crazy endurance Yeah, I think I was always trying to stay fit for soccer. You'll probably see the weightlifting portion and realize I'm not that strong and I'm not that big. So I realized that during soccer and my tactic was, you know, get to the ball first and get it off my foot as quickly as possible or else impending death. You know, that was my soccer career. It can get physical out there, can't it? It can real quick. And so the longer I was in soccer, I was staying fit for it anyhow.

And then I realized there's probably a better sport found distance running cross-country and track and field. And it seemed like I was a natural. But when you look back at it with perspective, it's like, well, I've been training with soccer. It was just not focused. Like I'm a runner and I'm doing distance runs. It was like I was playing another sport that required endurance. Yeah. And when you say you realize like in soccer, you had to be more fit, how did you train then to be fit?

I mean, just fitness runs with a team. I was always good at those. You know, it's when you're doing the lines back and forth on the field, laps are on the field. And then, you know, I was playing sports in the off season too. And that was softball for a while, which I always found too boring. Yeah, it's slow-paced. Doing that.

So, yeah. And then what else? Anything besides soccer and softball? I think that was it. I think, I mean, I remember being really young and my mom putting me in dance, you know, it was like mom's goal. And dad was like, nope. T-ball, co-ed T-ball.

Okay, Dead wins. Yeah. And that was, where'd you grew? Oh, in California. Yeah, Southern California. Okay. Yeah, so then when did the running, when did you start cross-country and track and all that? Had to be about middle school.

Yeah, so I played softball for a bit and just realized that, you know, it was a little bit too slow-paced for me. And found track and field and cross-country. And my dad was someone who was like, hey, you're not going to sit at home and do nothing and play video games and watch TV. Like, you don't have to do softball, but you have to find something else. Yeah. And so we found a track club together. And that was, you know, I talked about it a little in my book, but it was like the first sport that was mine. Like I found it and I picked it.

And I was like, I want to join a track team. So there was a lot of ownership to that. Yeah. And did your dad think you'd be good at it? I mean, did, where did you? I mean, I assume like, we always had the middle school mile type thing. Like you'd run a mile with everybody else and whoever got the fastest time. Did you guys do that?

Yeah. Yeah, but I was pretty much a natural. Like it seemed like it again. But when you're doing all the other sports, you just have a little bit more in the bank. Right. Yeah. And then did success come quick and track and cross country? It did.

Yeah. I think I just kind of had that jump on everyone. and my dad was someone who he taught us how to work really hard at a very young age. So in soccer, if I was, you know, getting pushed off the ball or not physical enough, it was like, well, what are you going to do to fix that? Like, how can you, and that's how I developed this tactic of being the quickest to the ball, get off the foot, the fastest. And so when I went to track, it was like, I was good, but now we've got to get better competition

so that we make sure you understand how to improve and keep putting in work so you can stay good. So that was something we figured out right away. Yeah. And so how did that work? Who'd you find a run against? Ironically, when I started out, I was on a track club that was mostly sprinters.

But they were a really high-level sprint group, and the coach was Adam Henderson. His daughter was Monique Henderson, who made the 400 meter relay pool as like a high schooler. You know, so they understood where high-end competition was. And when they saw me doing pretty well locally, they were like, okay, we got to start finding better races and putting you into the right thing.

So it was a little bit of luck in finding the right coach who was also going to, he understood high achievement and wanted to push you as well. Get to the next level. Yeah. And so, I mean, did you, did there was a state championship? in your high school? Like how did you know where you ranked as far as runners?

Yeah, at the middle school level, it was like you did club so you could make junior nationals and like see how you stacked up nationally. Yeah. And then in high school, California and cross country is split into divisions. I did pretty well my freshman year. I was, you know, runner up at the state meet. Okay. At that time, no other California. in cross-country?

Yeah. Okay. Female had won, you know, four state championships. So like freshman to senior year, you know, no one had done it. And I was runner up my freshman year. So I was doing all right. But there's always a next, there's always a next level, yeah. How much did you get beat by in that race?

I think it was eight seconds. Eight seconds. Not that I think about it ever. Not that I remember it. I know people who are competitive, never forget shit like that. It's just not how it works. But yeah, I was like, you know, because you said nobody has won four. I'm going to guess you won three after that.

Did you? Never won one. What? No. How? Yeah, I don't know. I think I just, you almost psych yourself out, right? Like, I think it's an interesting thing where you can lose and realize it's okay.

And then you learn to lose instead of just being like, no, I win. Yeah. So there's a mentality shift. I also think females just in general in high school are changing a lot. Yeah. I was still playing soccer at that time, so balancing a lot of different things. Right. I didn't realize how to full-time train for a long time.

Mm-hmm. Did your times get quicker over the years? They did. Yeah, I think I stalled out maybe sophomore year. I also had, I think I had three different coaches over four years. So consistency is always nice, but it wasn't there. Makes it tough. I know, you know, I made my son run, whatever.

Talk about that a lot. But his freshman year, he was fat. I think he was faster than he was the whole rest of, because he was little. He was tiny. Just, yeah. But he made the state meet as a freshman, you know, definitely wasn't runner up. But he was tiny. Then he got bigger and just wasn't, just couldn't perform.

I mean, also he didn't want to run. He wanted to lift weights. But, yeah. That might be way you got bigger. Yeah. And so I understand how that can your body is changing. That was a point I was trying to relate to. But yeah, it's just interesting.

But then also as you said that how are you looking at it mentally? Are you out there going, I'm going to win. I don't care what anybody else does. Or as you said, oh, I did my best, you know, and I got beat. And so, yeah, it's hard, it's hard getting that edge. You know, like developing that, I'm going to win at all costs. When you got that, obviously, when? When did that happen?

I don't know. I mean, I feel like I had that at a young age, and then you realize how big the world is. Yeah. And you get in that first race and everyone's like, oh, well, she's ranked number one in the country, so don't worry if you lose to her. Yeah.

And that's such a bad lesson. Yeah. I wish people didn't necessarily say those, like how you approach that is important. But even as I got into the pro ranks, I think it took me a long time to believe that I could win. But even at that point, it was never like I expect to win. Like it's really rare to win a pro race. Yeah. I think I've maybe won two or three in my career, but some big ones.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, well, besides Boston, what was that, 2017? 2018. 2018. Yeah. So what are the other wins? This is a good one. The Emerald Nuts, New Year's Eve race in New York City.

Yeah. It's a big, I don't know if you know that. I don't. I don't. I don't. Is it nuts? It's the big sponsor was Emerald Nuts. Oh, okay.

But it's a New Year's Eve race in Central Park. Oh, it's a four-mileer. Had the course record. Oh, nice, nice. And then a couple of track races, I think. Oh, yeah. I mean, not many. And then Boston.

And then Boston, yeah. Oh, my God, that's crazy. Yeah. But, yeah, so, I mean, it is a good point. That's how competitive and how big the world is. There's, you know, it doesn't take much to have enough gear to run. You need shoes. So you're going to get pretty much, there's no barrier to entry.

So to win against the entire world essentially difficult. It's tough. Yeah, it's tough. Yeah, that's super interesting. So even as hard as it, but you've went from that to running for the U.S. Olympic team twice, you know, in the marathon. I don't know. It's crazy. Yeah, I think that puts it in context, how tough it is.

I think there was a big mentality shift for me in 2011. And I think that's a big part of my story is. You know, everything was kind of coming together. It was a young pro. I was hungry and like I was on the right trajectory. And I believed in myself. Like that was the moment I believed I could win. And then I started to see the work that really matched up.

I went to 2011 Boston and said that out loud. And most of the running world was like, you're fucking crazy. Right? You said you were saying you could win? Yeah. And they were like, like there's nothing on your resume that shows that. And then I win that race and put it all together. I didn't win.

but I was second by two seconds. So we're coming down Boylston, about 600 meters left. Yeah. Not that I think about it a lot. And I think we changed leads two to three times on that stretch and I got out kicked by two seconds

and it was like, oh, I can win. Yeah. You know, like I didn't get it that day. Right. But the mentality then went back to like, not I expect to win, but I can win. Yeah, you proved to yourself that you weren't just talking shit

and nobody, you know, everybody else was discounting it, but you proved it right there. So yeah, that was the big shift, huh? Changed a lot. Yeah. What was the conditions like that day? It was the best day in Boston Maryland history.

It was the tailwind year, and people would tell you different numbers of how fast that wind was going. I think it was 12 miles per hour at the start. But it's point-to-point course, so we had a nice little boost, and everyone ran fast. But, you know, I crossed the finish line, and someone asked me to sign a pair of shoes or something. Like, hey, put your time down there.

And I had no clue what it was because all I wanted was to break the tape. Yeah, yeah. And I had to look it up. I was like, oh, that, that was fast. What was it? It was 222. Whoa. 38.

That is, that is fast. Yeah. Is that your fastest? It's still my fastest. Jeez. I know. That's a fast marathon. It's a good one.

Wow. That's pretty sick. So our friend Ken Wright out. told me, I need to hear the story of your Boston win. So, yeah, tell me, tell me, he said, did he say the back story too? I can't remember, but there's got to be some. He might have said, did he say the bathroom story? There's a lot of stories.

Check it out. Yeah, well, let me see what he said. Ken, I had, people know I had Ken Wright out on here, and a great guy. How do you know him? He has been a friend for a long time now. He was on the triathlon team with my husband. Okay. Him and Rob were both on the same team,

and so I got to know those guys way back when. And so your husband does triathlon then? He dabbles. Not so much anymore. He's a biker now. Oh, okay. Okay, get her to tell you the detailed story about how she won Boston in 2018.

The details backstory are incredible. That's what he said. Okay. So let's hear it. There is a bathroom story. Oh, you can put that in there too. Yeah, I mean, I think, well, I'm going to plug my book, check out choosing to run, because it's way more comprehensive and eloquently done.

But it was, you know, I think the 11 story kind of factors in. And then I went back to Boston a number of times and it was fourth, fourth, seventh, you know, always in the hunt, but could never get it done. And in 2017, I was like, this is my year for sure, going to win it. probably the fittest I had ever been and finished fourth, but like just a distant fourth, you know. And I felt like that was my last real opportunity to try and win the race. And so I felt like I was just kind of complacent and, you know,

going through the motions in preparation for 2018. And there was a lot of health stuff going on. I switched my coaching circumstances. And really went into the race thinking maybe I'd go halfway and drop out. and call it a career, you know. Wow. And then we started getting these weather reports. It was just going to be the worst weather in Boston Marathon history,

freezing cold, you know, I think it was 39, 42 max, super strong winds, headwinds the whole way, and pouring rain, like monsoon-type rain. So when you're looking at that, you're getting ready for the marathon, you're like, maybe I'll just do a different race, you know. Like, you kind of want to change your plans. Yeah. And, you know, my husband was like, hey, you're, this is made for you. Like, you know how to run in these conditions.

We train in Northern Michigan. Kind of had like hemmed and odd about it because I was just like the training didn't go great. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't great. And then the next day got on the line and really just saw how it was in everyone's head. The weather. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, you get into something difficult and, you know, it's, you can count yourself out before it even starts. And you can almost see it on folks' face. But there was also kind of the side where I didn't quite have the training I would have loved to have. So I'm still trying to keep, you know, my goal's realistic. So the first several miles were all grouped up. No one's really interested in pushing the pace into a headwind for a long time. Pretty comfortable, slow pace. Very.

Yeah, you know, it's like everyone's there. Everybody's like a shitty day at work. Basically. Yeah, you're just like, God, this sucks. What's the quickest way to get back? Is it an Uber or is it running? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so we're grouped up and, you know, one of the,

there was a really good American field. So Shalane Flanagan was in the group and I was like, you know, if I'm not going to really go all out today, maybe I can help someone else out and then I can drop out at halfway and I'll feel good about it. So I tapped her on the shoulder. I was like, hey, if you need anything today,

let me know. Like I blocked the wind, whatever. She was like, are you okay? It's fine. Kept running. Group's still pretty together through halfway. And she comes and finds me in the pack. She taps me in the shoulder.

She says, I have to use the bathroom. Do you think I can stop? And normally, that's just a terrible, race strategy, like you're going to lose a ton of time. Yeah. But we were running so slow. I was like, I'll just go to the front and make sure it stays slow. And you can try and catch up slowly or whatever, whatever you want to do.

She's like, okay, she takes off, uses the restroom. A lot of people clocked it really fast, 13 seconds. Yeah. But in that, you know, a short amount of time, the group sees this heavily, heavily favored person for the race to win it. She had just won New York Marathon the fall before. Okay. And so they go, this is where we make the move. Right.

And it strings out and it's off to the races. I had told her I would hold up the pack and I had clearly failed. So I'm like, I got to drop back and help her close up the gap. So we worked together, regrouped over like a mile and a half. How do you help? Like how do you help somebody? I think, you know, in that type of situation, the best thing you can do is cut a move in half.

So if there's a big surge, you can't make it all up at once. So I split between the back of the pack halfway, and then she's catching me, and then we work together for the second half. Okay. So we make our way back up. And it was the first time the whole race where I felt pretty good, you know, like it felt natural running that pace.

I got a little bit warmer. And from there, like maybe a mile or two later, another American woman was on the front. I'm like, it doesn't make any sense. Like, it's so windy. I'm going to go block the wind for her as long as I can. And then, you know, then the Americans will have a better shot to try to win this thing.

Go to the front and just out there leading, turn around, just take a peek and see if everyone's tucked in. Yeah. And I'd strung it out completely. You didn't know you're going fast? Whoa. It was this moment where I realized that everyone was suffering. Yeah.

Right? They didn't want to run fast. No. And it was a matter of how you wanted to think about that suffering. Like, am I going to feel sorry for myself from here on in? Or can I embrace this and use it to my advantage? And that was the first real moment where I started racing like I did in 11 in all of those years leading up. to that race and in that mentality shift you know i was being a competitor again instead of someone

who was like i feel bad and i feel tired and i feel cold right and um and then it was just years and years of of knowledge that i already knew and hadn't the bank from running boston so much they got me to the finish so what time or what place of the race was that where you looked back and you saw you had strung it out again so right about 17 so you turn into the newton hills um and i you know, take the look over as you head into the hills. And it was just like carnage behind me. Yeah. And so you had all of a boost of confidence. And then you thought, did you turn it on then? Did you say, like if I'm in the hills, I might think that if I push here, I could really open that up. Is that what you thought? Yeah, I guess I left out a critical detail here. Two women had gotten away.

Oh. One woman had gotten away. So it was a group of us catching her. Oh, I see. She slipped out of my mind. Forget her a lot because I won. So, yeah, I'm catching. We're working together to kind of close that gap,

which is why I made that surge. Okay, yeah. And so she's hanging out in front of us going into the hills and this small pack that I'm with, one of the younger Kenyans, Gladys Cheshire. She was really aggressive, and she really wanted to dictate the pace

and I could tell that she wanted to be in front of me. Like that's how she was most comfortable. With all the wind, I was like, knock yourself out, exactly. So she pushed a lot in the hills and I just kind of chased behind and we slowly closed the gap up to the woman who was leading, I think it was Ethiopian mummy Tudasca. And we were just more patient with it. You know, we caught her about mile 22.

And you could tell that. But it was a bad decision to go to the front when she did and she was just glazed, you know, you know the marathon glaze where you're just, you're not going to recover from it. And it's kind of your suffering home. So we both pastor around 21, 22, as we're exiting the hills. And I was right on Daska's or Chesh Sears heels at that point and had a decision to make. It was like, do you let her keep leading all the way into Boston and just try to kick? Because that didn't work before.

Right. Yeah. That's a hard thing to do. Yeah. And I knew she wanted to be the aggressor, so I figured I would just test her. Like, let's go up and see if she responds again and keep doing the same thing and letting her lead. But if you pass her and she doesn't respond, that tells me so much about her mentality. Yeah, for sure.

So I went by her. Put in like five hard steps. Nothing. Wasn't there. Nothing. And you can't look back. Yeah, no, no, no. That's a tell.

Yeah. So I was listening to the crowds and then running pretty afraid from there on in. Yeah. And then you won. It did. And where was she behind you? How far? So in 2011, I missed it by two seconds.

I ran the last, you know, four miles that day. completely afraid that someone was just going to hunt me down, catch me. Got to the finish line. People always asked, when did you know you were going to win? I got to the finish line, a couple steps out, and people are cheering and they're pronouncing it. And I was like, okay, like I won. Yeah.

Second place was like four minutes behind me. Whoa, you cry. Yeah, but I get that because if I see somebody who can be like looking over their shoulder, I know they're thinking about they must not be doing that great. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because if they're worried, if you're not worried about something behind you, you're running your own race and you're, it just sends that message to them that don't even bother. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. So that. And you spot on four minutes in the last four miles. Yeah. That's big. There was a lot of folks that dropped out. Yeah.

You know, I think the, the woman who had been in second, Gladys Cheshire, she actually got to mile 25 of the race. And quit? And dropped out. What? which logistically, like walking in is quicker than getting any form of transportation. But I think it just showed you how tough the day was. Like people were not, you know, making rational decisions.

Yeah, I guess I would understand that. They're just don't want to take another step. Yeah. I'm so done with this. I don't care if it's only a mile. You're just like, once you bonk in a race like that, I think hypothermia was a real thing too. Like you slow down enough and your core temperature drops and just all downhill.

So a lot of dropouts. How do you think people's feet were getting torn up? Because, you know, if you get wet, they get soft. I mean, were your feet okay? A lot of blisters. Yeah, yeah. A lot of blisters, yeah. So that, even stuff like that affects people.

Oh, yeah. When you're used to have on dry, especially if you're training in Africa, if you are, you're not wet. I mean, it barely rains over there. So it's a, yeah, I mean, it's just a lot of little things can add up. And then if your feet start getting blisters and you're just like, what is going on? Yeah. This sucks. I think there's a, when hope is kind of gone, like you have this goal, this thing you've been

thinking about for months and months and preparing for and you see it slip away, you lose a little bit of hope. And then you start to focus on every little thing, you know, a tiny blister on your foot feels like it's about to fall off. So it changes things dramatically. Yeah. Yeah, how did that feel to break the tape at Boston? I mean, it was great.

Yeah. It was a lot of swings and misses. But it was really special because it was a difficult race. And I think I've always been, you know, someone who was gritty. I didn't have the big signature win. I never won the state title. Never won in NCAAs. Didn't get the big pro contract.

So to have that big of a race, to have a moment like that was really, really cool. And to just use so many lessons from my career on one single day and pull them all together and have that help me get the job done. It was so rewarding. Yeah. I mean, what an incredible moment. I mean, yeah, it seemed like it also validated a lot for you. Yeah.

You know? Absolutely. Because you said you had been the brides, made not really the bride so many. many times. And then now of a sudden, the biggest marathon in the world, and you won it. Yeah. I mean, incredible. Yeah. It's full circle from 2011 to get it right down Boylston and get that moment. It was awesome. Yeah, I bet. And then how did, I assume, well, I don't know, but what did that do? Did your life change after that? Did everything change? Or, how was it different? For me, I mean, obviously, validation in my career path. So that was huge.

And then just being a lot busier, that was certainly a component of that for sure. I think it becomes a shift or at least a turning point in the career where it's like what do you prioritize, you're making sure you're training to win the big race or do you take this moment and capitalize on what you did? And what do you prioritize training or appearance or,

and so there's a lot of things that you don't think are ever going to factor in your career that kind of came into play. but yeah I mean it was it was a great moment to be just to get the recognition for hard work because you don't always have the result that shows what you've put in right yeah no no arguing that that one for sure I get that yeah I would think that like a Connor McGregor type person would come across the line and be like doubt me now doubt me now did you do that no stay cold I sort of wish you were a nicer day so that you could just celebrate a little longer, you know? Would you talk a little shit?

Probably. It was, I was in the right headspace to do that for sure. Yeah, you just out battled everyone. So yeah, you were like a fighter getting a knockout or something probably. Yeah, I mean, what an amazing experience because I know I've done it three times. You've done it way more than that, but I just know how that feels coming around that corner. Then you got the straight stretch there. that probably was, and you never looked over your shoulder then even?

No, I'm terrified. Like, especially not there. Because you would, what if you had looked and she would have been right there? Oh. You know, I absolutely thought about that. And coming into the late stages, you do the right on Hereford and the left on Boylston. And this is how strategic I was and how unaware of the gap I was. I was thinking, like, okay, no one's caught me yet.

So that means they're running, they have to be running, you. you know, 10 to 15 seconds a mile faster to have closed that gap. And that's going to wear on their legs. Yeah, for the sprint. I've got enough for a sprint. Like, that's where I was at coming down, Boylston. Yeah. Let's go.

Like, I can fight someone off right now. Do you, like, do you think about it? Because what I would think about is, like, if I was worried about somebody behind me, I'd take that corner tight so I'd be out of sight as fast as possible, then turn it on. Yeah. Like, do you think about stuff like that?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Very strategic. Okay. Because then like that, that'd be a couple more steps if they didn't know you dug into that turn. You got to take like five, ten quick steps off that turn. Mm-hmm. Make the gap look bigger.

Yep. Yeah. Break them a little bit, hopefully. Okay, I didn't know if that was just me being weird or... No. Or maybe is both of us being weird? Yeah, that could be. It's pretty common.

I'll have to go back on my records. I don't think I've won Boston. Okay. But yeah, other than that, we're probably the same. Age group? You gotta be up there. I don't think so. I don't know.

It's a tough field. Yeah. Even for age groupers. Yeah. But it's such a special race. I mean, I love that race. Just the crowds are, I don't know about that day. There's probably, crowds were probably watching on TV.

But like anytime I've been there, I've been pretty lucky. I guess in one year, it was cold and rainy and not like that. But it must have been 20. When was the last one? I don't know. I started in a big camo jacket because I took it. You know, I got, well, you have to wait at the start line forever. Or I do right in the bus out there.

So I had this big camo jacket and I ran with that for at least a mile. And my first mile was like 8.30. It's like so cold or whatever. And then somehow still got, I broke three, which for me is good. That's amazing. Yeah. But, yeah, it was a. Was it?

2007? No, because my first year was 2008. 15. 15. It must have been. Because I was going to say 14 or 15, but 15 was pretty nasty. Seemed like. Did that one.

Did you? Yeah, yeah. Seven was bad. That was the Nor'easter, the only time they've considered canceling it. And then 15 was a rainy one. Yeah, that's the one it was. But, yeah, still got in. I think I think 259, but whatever.

That's moving. With the headwind, too? Yeah. It's, you know, I talked about this. Every time I do like a marathon, there's times during it where I'm like, I'm never doing this shit again. That just sucks. But then you go finish and think about how sweet it was.

Yeah. And it's that atmosphere, just being there, you know, you don't want to be on your feet, but there's so much walking around and just hanging out. It's cool. It's a bit of a reunion for the running community, you know, and you get it in the spring after you've kind of paid. your dues all winter. Yeah. You get a nice day and you're like, okay, this is enjoyable. Yeah. And I think I went to the baseball game the night before. That was fun. There's so much going on.

And then Patriots Day. So I don't think there's school is there? No, it's holiday in Boston. So everyone comes out. Yeah. All the schools go out and drink all day. Yeah. Great time. Yeah. No. Good stuff. Well, yeah, I know. That's a lot of people when they think of Boston, they think of you. And yeah, I love hearing that story. I mean, of course, you did cover in your book. Great book, by the way. So get out there, get that book. But also just hearing you explain it, it's different.

It's different than sitting on words. I like hearing the story from you. Pretty good. No, it's great. I do, I think that writing the book, I put it down, and then I was like, okay, I can forget all of this. So I missed parts. I'm like, I don't know.

That was a book ago. It was a lifetime ago. And now you're working on a new book? Unannounced yet. Oh, never mind. No, that was me. I'm working on a new book. That's what I meant.

Is that an announcement? Yeah, I don't know if I've even mentioned that. But now, since I did take the hit for you, I just announced it. Oh, good. Sorry. No, that's all good. Yeah, so, but you also have a killer podcast. Tell me about that.

That's been really fun. It's called Nobody Asked Us with Des and Kara. And Carrie Goucher is my co-host, and she was my computer. competitor for a long time, ran in the marathon when I did, but also a silver medalist at the 10,000 meters, the world championships in 2007, I believe, in a two-time Olympian. So fantastic athlete. We get on the pod and we just riff on all things running. So the sport, the broadcast, you know, the sponsorship side, anything that's interesting to us. We just dig into it and try to just uncover some of the things that are going on behind the scenes that may be.

maybe fans would be interested in, but don't have access to. Hmm. And so nobody asked us like, well, we're just going to cover this anyway because... 100%. No one wants our opinion, but we're going to tell you anyhow. Yeah, I love that. And so it's been received well, I take it. I mean, you guys are very well known, obviously, in the running community.

Did debt, or not does, did Kara get third in a marathon? Did I remember? She was third in New York. Yeah. Was that her first one? It was her debut. I think it was 2009 or 10. Yeah.

Yeah. That was a pretty good start. Came back and had a great Boston as well. She had one of those stretches where there was three or four women on Boylston. I think she finished maybe five seconds out of the top three. So or she might have been third. Yeah. Yeah.

She was great. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, so I don't know. There is the running scene. I mean, as I was saying earlier, is like for athletes is either you're on, I don't know, what a commercial or in print ad.

And then that's pretty much the only way these running companies could advertise our product. But now with the podcast, it's like this whole new medium and they can get, you know, I know Brooks sponsors your podcast so they can get coverage out there in a different way. Yeah, it's been great finding partners that are a good fit. And we don't do ad reads yet. We've been approached by a couple of plans.

But we kind of just try to find ways to integrate the products. And, you know, Brooks is a natural fit. Both Kara and I are sponsored by the brand independently. And we just announced that that partnership. So it's really cool to bring them on and get to talk about them even more. Yeah. How they've been, have you been with them the whole time? I, yeah, I started running professionally in 2005 and started with Brooks right away.

Oh. So it's been a minute. Yeah. That's a long tenure. the same sponsor. That's pretty good. So they must be great sponsor, great support, which is, you know, proven in their help with the podcast.

What has been like the most rewarding part of having that podcast and be able to tell these stories and what's been the best part of it? I think what's unique about it is Kara and I were competitors and we were, you know, on kind of competing brands. She ran for Nike for a while. and then switch to Wazel and I'm with Brooks and you know there's all these reasons that we shouldn't get along yeah and we really didn't know each other all that well when we started it we kind of came up with the concept on on Twitter which is so funny so there's an element of it where we're getting

to know each other and you can really see it in the first few episodes and so our friendship has grown and we actually get along really well and that part's been really cool so it's a well how to to start if you didn't know each other and then you're like, hey, we should do a podcast even though I don't really know you that well. We were both griping about the same thing on Twitter. Oh. Can you say what it was? We were talking about the shoe technology. Oh.

And just kind of going into a few things that were happening with sponsorships and athletes. And, you know, we pointed out some things that were troubling. And what happens is everyone, if you're an older athlete, everyone says, well, you're just old and bitter. Yeah. Like, you're just upset because you can't do what they're doing. And we kind of just joked. Like, well, maybe we'll start a podcast called Old and Bitter and just get on there and grape.

Yeah. Nobody asked us. Okay. Yeah. Did, what, like, what's your thoughts on the new shoe technology? I didn't listen to the episode, but like, what is it? Like, how much has it changed everything? It's dramatically.

You know, it's really a different sport. We were talking about it earlier. the women's world record is 211, 50-something, which is crazy. And when I started, Paula Radcliffe had it like 215 high, I think. And that was an outlier. Yeah. That was like, well, that's untouchable. So if you can run under 219, you can win just about anything.

219 now you're maybe top 10. Jeez. Yeah. Pretty good. And that's from, is it the carbon plate? It's the blend, the foams and the plate. But I think, you know, you can run quicker. It's easier to run quicker.

You recover better, which means you can run quicker more often. And then there's the mentality of it too where like that edge. Radcliffe's was an outlier. No one thought they could do it. So they didn't try. And now we don't know what's possible. So everyone's just, you know, knocking it out of the park every time out and resetting the boundary, which is,

kind of fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's what I remember about Paula Radcliffe is her running form. Isn't she like her head everywhere? Yeah, it doesn't look efficient or smooth. She's pretty. How can that work? Right. I don't know. That's a mystery to me. Yeah. Does, so do you have shoes with carbon plate in them? Oh yeah. Yeah. You got to get in the game. It's adapter die. Well, I've seen, I don't know if it's real or not, but on Instagram how they have the shoe and they bend it and it goes shooting off and then they have one without a carbon plate

and it goes like right there. Is that real? Actually, I took one of my original racing flats. I think it was the shoe that I wore in 2016 just to kind of make a joke about it and it flopped over so sadly. It was like, oh, we were idiots. Yeah.

Had we known. And now, like your shoes now, would they spring? They'd launch pretty far. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So even if it didn't do anything,

you'd have to be putting them on going, I'm going to freaking kill it today. I'm getting launched on every step. Oh, the whole sensation's different. Yeah. I mean, and that's such a great thing.

Like as much as on the performance side, things have changed and you go, well, I don't know if I like it or not. The other side of it is they make running easier. Yeah. And if more people put on a shoe and think, wow, this isn't as hard as I thought, then more people will start running.

Yeah. And whether that's performance or health and wellness or whatever it is, like more people are running is a good thing. Yeah, for sure. No, I mean, we need more healthy people. I know that. So, yeah, I get it.

And I mean, I love putting on those sick running shoes. I mean, they're like, I don't know, $275 bucks. They're pretty expensive. But I were, I think the sockanies I have, the endorphin pros, don't they have it? I think so. Yeah. And then Emma has sent me some of the new balance and those have it and it just feels

freaking good. Right. Yeah. Not beat up later or as beat up. Yeah. It's like this isn't as hard as I thought it was. No, so I get it. But in the racing, do you think that confidence has come over to where girls are going out more aggressive because of that?

Is that why the times are faster probably? I think so. I think it's way more forgiving. I remember Mary Cataney running New York in her debut and going out in course record pace and it was like she has no clue. She has no idea what's going to happen at mile 20. And, you know, they're peeling her off the road

with a spatula at 20. Like she's just running in peanut butter, right? Yeah. And now you get women going out under 105 and they hold it together, you know, 105 at the half. And like they fall apart. but not as much, like you're not seeing that meltdown

like you would in the past. So there's definitely something to testing that boundary and what's the most efficient way to cover the distance now and run fast. Hmm. Also, so speaking of performance, I had Andy Galpin on like the other day and he was talking about something I never do,

which is probably why I've never got faster. I think my last marathon is about the same time as my first marathon, but like you're, diet even three days before the marathon and then like what the fuel you're taking during a marathon I assume that part's very dialed in for you that your bottles and whatever you're taking in calories wise during the run how far in advance before the race are you dialing in your diet it's not super specific for me like that's an area I could work on and get better at um nutrition and running is is a fascinating thing because I think runners are so they're a lot of

lot are very type A and they start to look at the numbers and perfection comes in and I'm a little bit more fluid. So really simple rules, you know, it's just adding more carbs, cutting out fiber, making sure you're hydrating. And those become more important in the days leading up to and then having the right on course nutrition is super important. And that's worked on the entire buildup. So it's little tweaks for me. And I think that, approach is better for my mindset where if I had a really rigid routine and then all of a sudden you can't find that pasta you normally eat, then your whole, you melt down. Right.

I don't want to be that person. No, I understand that. Yeah. What is your diet like generally? Pretty simple. Is it? Yeah. My rules just try and avoid the bags in the boxes and just eat real healthy food as much as

possible. Stock those things in the fridge first. Yeah. But same type of thing where I think you can overthink it. And for me, I think one of the biggest problems would be not getting enough. Right. So I would rather have the wrong things, but enough than under fuel because I couldn't get the perfect thing. Yeah. So is it like meat, fruit and then like complex carbs kind of? Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can't go wrong with that. Can you? Right. And it's easy. It's simple.

You stock it. It's there. Your snack is something healthy. Yeah. One ingredient type, you know, apple, banana, deer, elk, bear. Love it. We're big fishers.

Yeah, a lot of fish. Yeah, a lot of fish. Sweet. Yeah, that's so interesting. So, but during, okay, during the race, how many calories do you take in like in a marathon, do you think? I'm sure you know. I wouldn't, I wouldn't know calories.

I know I'll take eight to 10 ounces. of an electrolyte carb mix. Okay. I guess if I looked at the packet, I use Momentus mixture. All right. Take eight to ten. The rule of thumb, good Arizona state rule,

drink early, drink often. And then as you get later into the race, it's a little, like you can skimp here and there. Right. But you want to front load the nutrition on the race so that you're basically topping off your gas tank as you go. And you don't know how many carbs you're in that drink? It's just, yeah, you're just getting in fluid mostly, but also probably some salt.

Yeah. Yeah. There's enough carbs in those, you know, it's some fuel. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, interesting. I don't know. I'm always, yeah, I didn't take any.

I think I took a ketone IQ in the marathon. Then it was glad I saw some gels, even though I hate gels. But, you know, that little shot of carbs helps. Yeah. I mean, I think it's so difficult when you're getting the paper. paper cup and like you're just spilling down the front of it like I don't know how much I got in I try to get one one swallow yeah I put it in try to you want the gel is you're like okay I know what's I know what I've gotten in yeah ketone IQ like I got one bottle and we're good you can have that

if you want it I might are you a caffeine person yeah I am that's um that's a good hack for for race day I don't know if you mix caffeine in there yeah like in your hydration A little late in the race, if you're a caffeine user. They do a lot of studies where people hit the wall are kind of bonged and, you know, or they haven't run to failure is what it was. Oh. On the treadmill, run to failure and then test their muscles for a while to see how much fuel is left in them. They, like, basically simulate if they're still enough fuel in or any glycogen in the muscles by triggering them.

And most people have like loads left of fuel, but the mind says, no, no, we're shutting down. And caffeine kind of just extends that where you can still keep tapping into the fuel before the mind is like, we're done. Well, us, us normies don't get caffeine options. Well, now they're caffeinated. Yeah, I know, yeah, because I don't remember a bunch of caffeine like in a little water cups, you know what I mean? So yeah, that would, I didn't know that. Caffeinated gels now. Okay.

Okay, sweet. I just need that now. That's going to help. Just saying. Plus, if you're a caffeine drinker, like, I can't go a couple hours without having a coffee. Me neither. You know, I'm on course. I'm like, I could use some caffeine.

Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, Andy tried to tell me that if I got my diet dialed in three days before and then race nutrition, he goes, you could take 10 minutes off your marathon. I was like 10 minutes. 10 minutes is a lot. I mean, I think on course nutrition alone could help with a lot of time.

Man, okay. Maybe I'll qualify for the Olympics. I only got to get down to what, 217 for the trials? It's not bad. You start now. That's only like 40 minutes off. 10 minutes a year, you're on your way. Yeah, I'm good, I'm good.

Yeah, so talking, speaking of racing, competition. So the reason why you're here is the Olympic trials. Yeah. So you came out just to as a fan or just sponsor obligations or how did that work? A little bit of work for Brooks. We did a live podcast. There's this runner space house out yeah. In Eugene I guess and cool spot we did a podcast out there from a pontoon boat. We had some pyrotechnic things like sparklers going off. It was great. And then led some group runs and watched the Brooks athletes compete, which they did great. You did, where did you do the group runs on Preach Trail? Yeah, we would meet Brooks had a little setup downtown at the nest, meet there and then head over to Preach trails.

Just get like a handful of miles or something. Yep. Sweet. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah, but man, the competition, how sick was that? What was your, what do you think was out of all the events, what was your favorite? That's an impossible question. I know.

How about top, top three? Okay. Fresh on the mind, women's 15. Oh, man. It's crazy. At times we're just out of this world and we're sending an amazing team. Women's 800 for a variety of reasons.

Like, that's just the drama of the trials. Yeah. You have the favorite, a thing, Moe, defending gold medalist in the event. and she takes a spill early in the race. Our system is brutally fair. You know, it's... Can you be too fair?

Maybe, but I don't know. I wouldn't want it any other way. Like, I wouldn't want someone in a room deciding who's good enough or who is it. Like, let's self-select. And that is an example of how I can leave a really great person on the outside. but the women who did make it performed under pressure, managed their tactics right, and raced really well.

So it's a great team. Yeah. Third race, I would go with, I'd go with the men's 15. That was pretty fun. So fast again. Great squad too. I mean, Cole Hawker running 3.30?

Right. So fast. Looking smooth. And I said at that party over at the run space, house, a runner's space, whatever it is. He said he ran two seconds, his PR by two seconds. It's like 332 and got sixth. It's like, that is so fast. And that got you sixth. It's almost like the women's 1500 where Corey McGee, she's running faster as you ever ran and got fifth or sixth. It's like these times are just insane. It was. And it's such a funny thing about the trials

because it's like you have to be ready on the day. You have to know how to perform. And then you look in the depth. Okay, you have your top three. They did it. They performed on the day. But everyone else is too. You know, it's just you have to be able to be at a whole new level. Yeah. And not have that, you know, like, yeah, the defending gold medalist not going back. And I saw there were some appeals. I think that's just a natural thing that they try to appeal the results, I guess. But God denied. I mean, it's just racing. Rightfully so. Yeah. There was nothing there. if anything a couple folks in the race that were behind her were more impeded by her spill right but could i could she have got up and kept going or did she try she did she actually she actually

finished which i okay bravo to her yeah she had every reason i didn't see that race i think i was doing a movie okay yeah but what happened so she fell and then caught back up she was she fell hard and was basically just a little too far out of it she put in a big surge to try to close it down and, you know, it just bites you too much of an effort to try to close it up that quick. Yeah, in a short race. Yeah, just not enough time. Right. Yeah, I mean, you should, you should go back and watch it. It's worth it. I'm going to. Yeah, I'm definitely going to. I get home, well, go to the track meet when I've been home, then go back and I watch the broadcast, but then go to YouTube and watch those. So I'm like, I love, I love the big track meets.

It's great. It's so fun. I think we need. all the fans we can get. And I think, you know, folks like you and Andrew and anyone who has a big platform that's talking about track athletes, it's great for the sport. Yeah, we were there. I mean, Andrew Huberman got me a ticket

to sit with them down. I don't even know how you can get better seats. You were like in lane three. Yeah. We were right by that camera that came by, comes by like 100 miles an hour. Yeah, I'm like, if that thing hits my arm is going to take it off.

But yeah, great. And then Grant Fisher came around as, you know, like the, they do the victory lap. And then he was like, hitting people's hands. Then he stops. And he's like, looks at Andrew and he shakes his hand. He's like, love your stuff type thing. So. Stanford.

Yeah. Oh, did you grand go to Stanford? He did. Okay. Yeah, that's it. But yeah, there's a lot of people who recognize Andrew there. And then he put up a post last night talking about running. And, you know, he runs.

And then Rob Moore, his partner runs. great. Actually, you went running with Rob. Rob got a lot of mileage in. Did he? Yeah, he's getting ready for a big event,

is what I hear. Oh, okay. Stay tuned. Stay tuned. Yeah, he's fast. He is. Yeah. He's really good.

Yeah. So, yeah, just to see, I think Snoop Dog was there. That was kind of cool. Was there any other stars there? I remember one time Travis Scott was there. Oh, really?

Maybe at the, that was at the World Championships maybe. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it's cool seeing people outside the community taking such an interest in track. The ratings were great. And a lot of people were like, was it snoop or was it track and field? Yeah.

So coincidence, I don't know. But. I heard yesterday that 33 personal bests were set at that meet. So that had to, I mean, so you're making compelling TV like history, essentially, on the track. It should get a lot of viewers. Yeah. You know? but what should get viewers doesn't always.

So I'm glad I'm glad this did because it was such an incredible and then Sidney McLaughlin on last night setting another world record. Right. They're going to close out like cherry on the top. Last event of the meat. Perfect.

And just, yeah, I was, I was saying, I don't see how it could have went any better. That might have, I mean, arguably was like a two. two-hour program, best two hours of track and field, you know, at least ever in America. Yeah. Really great, like across the board. Exciting stuff. And I forgot.

I'm wearing Cole Hawkers T-shirt. So we were, you know, respect to all the competitors, but we were pulling for Cole last night in the 5,000. And we had a shirt. We're getting ready to wear me, Andrew Robb, is going to be sick. other competitors had different ideas. That was a tough race. That was.

He had a lot of miles on his legs too. Yeah. 15 rounds. And then you do the heat, the qualifying of the 5,000. Yeah. That's a lot of work for one guy. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

And he's like, but I was like so optimistic because he's been on such this, this terror and at such a high level. And then he popped that 3.30 at the, you know, to win. the 15. I'm like, oh my God, he's going to win the five, too. So it's tough, though. Yeah. Oh, for sure. But honestly, how about those two guys, the two collegiates kicking late in that race? That North Carolina kid. Going bananas. That was so fun to watch. 800 out and they look like they're in a full sprint. Like, they can't possibly keep this up. And then they find another gear. I know. And that kid, he was on the track for a while, the North Carolina.

I think he got 30s, going to the Olympics. Yeah. I mean, how insane is that? That's pretty cool. Yeah, I loved it. But you can't help. In this whole stadium, you feel the energy of everything. I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be on the screen, or I mean on the track,

but I see them coming in. They're looking at the screen, checking to see where the rudders, but then hearing on the home stretch there, the crowd, must just be incredible. Pretty special. I try not to do a ton of track, but back in the day, I mean, Running at Hayward was always magical. There's just so much history there. Yeah.

And anytime you get to race in an area in a city where the spectators can comprehend what's going on and know when there's a magical moment happening, you can feel it differently as a competitor. You know, like in Boston. The fans get it. They know what they're watching. They appreciate it. In Eugene, same thing. So did you race on Hayward before?

Back in the day. Yeah, like what events was that? I've done five and tens. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Did trials in 2008 in the 10,000. Oh, you did?

Yeah. Okay. It's fun. How did that go? Not great. I'm a marathoner now. What did you have to, what took to qualify for the 10,000 trials? I feel like for this year, the A standard was like 3235, or 3230.

Back then it was probably like 3320. Yeah. Still fast. Still pretty quick. Very fast. But you got it. Got in. Yeah.

That's kind of cool. It was great. Running an Olympic trials never gets old. No. You know, later on my career, but it's still a thing like, well, maybe if I could make a trials, that would be fun, you know, not on the track. Yeah. But in the marathon. And you made it this year.

I did. Yeah, I did my fifth. Fifth trials? 2008, I did the marathon. 12, 16, I made the teams. 20. I was fourth. And then this year it was 11th.

Yeah. So some good experience. But how many trials are you just say? Five? Yeah. That's insane. I'm old. That is so much.

What did it take to make the trials on a marathon this year? I think it was 2.35. Oh. Yeah. It's reasonable. Yeah. It's doable. Yeah, definitely.

Maybe one more in me. I think you got another one. I think you do. I don't know. That's, I mean, what a, you never want to call it a career, but what a career has been up to this point. You know, it's just amazing, amazing story. You're still competing. You got a lot of thoughts you like to share.

That's good. It's got a lot of wisdom you can share. And, yeah, I just like the great stories. But today, we did the lift run shoot. Tell me about your thoughts on shooting a bow. That was great. I feel like I have a new habit that has entered my life because that was a lot of fun. It's something my husband Ryan does.

Yeah. And he'll come back from a run and stand in the yard and shoot for like 10 to 15 minutes. You know, he's getting ready for deer season. He's going to have to share the target now. It'll probably be some sort of competition involved because that's kind of just what we do. Yeah. But I really enjoyed it. I think it's, we were talking about it on the drive-over.

It's very zen, right? You have to focus on the process and the movements, and you can't be thinking about the email you forgot to send or the last mile of the workout that went poorly. Like, you just, you're in that moment. Yeah, well, I mean, you're shooting right out of the gate, even though you never shot a bow before. I mean, you were accurate, almost from the get-go.

That, are you just a naturally good shot? You shot rifles before or what? Yeah, right. We do bird. We have two bird dogs, so shot rifles before and shotgun. 22s. Yeah. Like nothing that's going to bite back.

Yeah, but it's the same like aiming, you aim, trigger control. I mean, still same like, not, I mean, along the same lines of execution as far as releasing an accurate shot or shooting an accurate shot. So whatever it was, it translated over to you and the bow today. And you were great. We got you dialed in out there at a little longer distance at the new Bo-Rack range, which was cool. Wayne did what he does best, and that's instruct people. Great, great teacher. Yeah, he is the best.

And the Bo-Rack man, it's been kicking ass lately. It's a little remodel, little expansion. So that's fun. And then we ran Piscka. What did you think of Piscka? It's tough. It was tough. We actually got to walk a little bit.

Yeah. I wasn't mad. He's like, oh, this is a lung burner. But yeah, I was glad I didn't have to carry a rock. But I think a few laps. You picked up the rock? I moved it around a little bit. Yeah.

How did it feel? Heavy. Yeah. We'll just tell Andrew, because he remember when it's trying to say you need to carry the rock up and all you got to do is move it around a little bit. He's giving you some coaching advice. Forgetting that it's like, like almost your same body weight. So, yeah.

That would have been a tough ask. Yeah. But yeah, we had a special guest with us, Joe Nail today. He's doing this incredible event across the country, essentially, in all 50 states. And it's to help veterans. And so, yeah, we had him join us on the way up. That was kind of fun. Yeah.

What a neat project. Yeah. I mean, that's a huge ask of your body. But I think when you have a bigger purpose like he does and what he's doing it for, you know, you'll find a way to get it done. Yeah, he, what great guy. I saw him at the track meet last night. He said he was doing it.

I'm like, yeah, we'll figure it out. We'll get you, you know, we'll get you in. I told him when we were heading over to Piscuit, and he showed up. And it was great. But, yeah, a beautiful day. We did the summit. They had a big loop around the bottom, got in some good miles. But yeah, I was sweating my ass off.

I know that. He got kind of warm out there. Yeah. But, yeah, it was such an honor running. you and then we came here and we just with through some weights around. So you started your weight training program. I can't even pick up the coffee cup

because I'm still like shaky. Really? No. You did great. It's good. It's a friendly reminder to start lifting more weights. Yeah. Do you ever like look at is body weight ever part of your concern?

Like for nutrition or know where you're at? How do you keep track of that? I don't really keep a close eye on it. I think the concern is always being too light. Yeah, too light. Too light. I'll get into training 120 mile weeks when I'm at my peak, you know, back in the past. And if I make a decision like, hey, you know, I think I'll cut out beer for this buildup,

like all of a sudden I'll be 92, 94 and there's just too light. What happens when you're too light? You just lose energy. Oh, okay. You know. I see. Yeah. So you just need more, a little bit more muscle to.

hold fuel kind of. Is that, is that what you think? Could be it. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, now you're going to have more muscle from lifting. So plan. Yeah, you might, you know, solved it here. You might not even hit your peak yet. Yeah, that's right. Master's records for sure. Yeah. They're going to be mine. You're going to get up to like a hundred pounds and have all those fuel in your muscles. If not, at least I'll have muscles. So I'll look a little bit better. It looks shredded. Well, Des, thank you for like, I know you're supposed to fly home today, but you extend it out so we could do the lift run shoot. All I wanted to do is get you a new bow.

So we got that checked off the list. But then also the bonus was being able to run with you. It was just a great day. I love being able to sit down and talk and hear some behinds the scenes on some of these stories. And I love what you're doing with Kara. And now, you know, you can be shooting arrows with Ryan in your backyard. Love it. Yeah.

Thanks for having me out. It was an awesome day. Yeah. This was a win. for me for sure. And so as we always enter in the podcast right here, this is Desa's new bow to keep hammering addition, Colbalt from Hoyt. And it's an origin camo. Have you seen this cameo before? I have. Origin, yeah. That's uh, I love it. Jocco's, Jocko and Pete at origin, their brain child, awesome looking camo and now it's on your bow. Love it. I have a pair of

origin shorts wear them while I shoot. Nice. we'll do it listen let's you got to post a picture of that i'd love to see it we'll make it happen all right dazz well thank you for thank you for staying and thank you for the great discussion and the time spent on the trail my pleasure all right keep hammering