Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 093 - The Stevens Brothers: San Carlos Apache Reservation

Episode Date: September 16, 2024

Join us for a discussion with Cam and the Stevens brothers (Homer, Mark and Tim) of the San Carlos Apache Reservation for a conversation about Elk hunting in Arizona. Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com   Thank you to our sponsors: Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off  Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order Ketone IQ: https://hvmn.com/CAM use code CAM for 30% off your first subscription MUD\WTR: https://mudwtr.com/cam use code CAM for 15% off  Sig Sauer: https://www.sigsauer.com/ use code CAM10 for 10% off optics Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off Timestamps: 0:00:00 The San Carlos Apache Reservation, Fences & Predator Control 0:06:00 Where the Obsession with Elk Hunting Began 0:08:48 The Community in Elk Hunting 0:13:57 Sharing the Elk & Bull Elk Growth 0:20:42 Tim’s 430 Elk 0:23:59 Ad Break 0:25:50 The Key to Getting a Big Bull 0:31:28 Are the Elk Comfortable Around the Stevens Brothers? 0:33:54 Can Elk Sense Someone’s Energy? 0:40:22 Why Tim Chose to be a Wildlife Director VS a Guide 0:42:48 The Stevens Brothers’ Goals 0:50:02 How to Hunt at the San Carlos Apache Reservation 0:56:01 Outro

Every step I take I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel. Gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I move it's so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. All right, this is the Keephammering Collective.

I'm here in Elk Camp with these are men I've looked up to for decades. Just being, you know, I dreamed of killing a big bull as a young bow hunter. And to sit here right now with Homer Stevens, who's an outfitter here at San Carlos, Apache Reservation, Stevens' brothers' outfitting. And then to his be left is Tim Stevens, director of, what's your title, Tim? Director of the San Carlos Recreational Life Department. Okay. And Mark Stevens, where are you, head guide? Master guide.

Master guide. Well, it's, this is. incredible sitting here because we watched the monsters of San Carlos video I don't know how many times just on repeat as kids and I don't know these bulls seemed unreal at the time and now I'm here hunting them and to be around you guys and learn from you guys it's amazing but I want to ask what makes the San Carlos Apache reservation so special as far as growing big bulls and why is it what makes it what it is. Management?

It would be the management program that was in Seoul late 80s. They shut down the hunts to tribal members to the public. Used to be over the counter, so all the biologists that were working for the tribe back then are the ones that actually put that in place along with the director, really limiting all the hunts, and they're really limited to tribal members, very limited to non-members. A lot of the bulls just started growing old, growing big, growing old.

Getting that age on them? Yes. Okay. So would you know a left hand, like what the harvest was before the program started and what the harvest would be afterwards, roughly? The harvest prior for this unit still was very low at the time. Not a whole lot of people hunt at this dry lake unit.

Yeah, it's like the hunts were included here and the melee, But everybody went to melee because there was a lot of elk during the winter. They'd come down, so everybody would go there for elk quick. But we would hunt here and we'd still find elk ourselves because our dad would always take us hunting when we were kids, and he showed us the areas. And it's how we found them, and still kept finding them. Just right before he closed down, these two were getting on some giant bulls back then.

Really? Yeah. What was, oh, go ahead. What happened is in 1985, we had a real good biologist by the name of Brian Chek. And he envisioned bringing the herd back up. So what we did was we bought 25,000 acres from the tribe and fenced it off because the cattle that roamed in here, they ate all the grass down. So he said that the elk herds weren't flourishing because the predators were getting all the calves.

So when we bought that 25,000 acres and fenced it off, had no cattle in there for, I don't know how many years it was. And it was like about the fourth year, it's like the elk population just took off because you had vegetation out there where the calves can hide down in. and not move and the predators couldn't pick them up anymore. Right. And from then on, it just kept growing, growing and growing. And when you say fence, that's to keep, that's for cattle. Because I know we got all sorts of trolls on social media and the fact they're commenting on Mark's post today talking about there was a cattle fence in the background of a bull that you put up.

And they're talking like, that's high fence. So you're not talking high fence. No, we're talking cattle fence. Yeah, yeah. They're only four feet high to keep the cattle out. Right. And people, they see these bulls, and you might think, is this high fence? Because the bulls are so incredible.

This is 100% fair chase, free range, wild elk, make no mistake. This is giant country, big country. It's rugged. It's tough to hunt. And yeah, definitely no high fence operation. So I just want to clear that out. But that is a good point. You know, when the cattle, you know, the overgrazing does it.

It not only affects the feed, but as you said. you know, once those calves dropped, the bear, they follow these herds around, and as soon as the calves hit the ground, they're, that's a free meal for the bear. And yeah, so people don't, I think people think lions are such a detriment to, you know, prey animals, but it's bears too, and you guys have a lot of bears. A lot of bears. Coyotes do the most damage probably. Right, yeah, especially your fawns too.

The director implemented a predator hunt, and a lot of people were against it, you know. the all the people off the reservation were against it because they said you guys are going out there for sport. But we're not doing it for sport. It looks like sport, but we're doing it to actually manage the predators and knock them down. Well, yeah, I mean, that's what's required

to keep a healthy herd for sure. I mean, people don't realize you can't just kill prey animals. You have to kill predator animals. Well, I guess if it sounds better, you can say manage. I mean, you have to manage the numbers, no matter what. That was the actual event, creditor management event. Yeah. Yeah.

So your dad, he was a big elk hunter? Is that where the... It just, he was a hunter. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And then what, where did the obsession with elk come in for you guys? No, man, they just, the one of the first elk hunts, I remember is when we were at, what, Lost Springs.

My dad would make a camp almost like this just for family. and we'd go there and we'd be left in camp because we were like about so high still and everybody else would go hunting and the cook would be the only one in camp with us and ever since then just coming out and being in the hills chasing elk and now like we say wish we knew what we know now back then right but I mean it's still fun I mean is do you think there was there bigger bowls back then or is now is the best time for big bulls because of the management? What would you guys think?

Well, the big bull, there were a few big bulls up here back then, very few. And it's all because of the mountain mahogany up on the room where they winter. Mountain mahogany is a natural antibiotic. And that's what they feed on and that's all they feed on. The years we have bad horn growth is when there's not enough snow to push them over on that side and feed over there because it's hot on that side. When you get the good snowstorms that push them over and they'll feed for long periods of time over there. And that's how a lot of our bulls really grew big. So they'll feed on the mahogany?

Yeah. But they only go there if they're forced to. Yeah. Okay, I understand. Also putting the season on the antler harvest. All the big bulls are on their wintering ground then, just out there feeding, laying around. They drop their horns and horn hunters will come in and start pressuring them, push them out of their natural grounds right there. Recovery.

Where their growth is going to start. So to shut down the antler harvest for those two months also made a big difference to let the bulls just stay there and start. to grow big difference. What months do you shut down for an hour? February and March. Okay. April 1st, it'll open. So that's after they've kind of survived the winter,

and then it's a key to basically building back up. After the rut, then the winter, they're depleted probably. I would think any animal would be. So yeah, I understand that. These guys getting in their impression, and he's moving these animals around. Yeah, that would make a difference for sure. What else, I mean, this has been decades, so you talked about when you were a kid,

or kids doing this so young. Now what is it because you guys aren't really, you're not hunting, you're just involved in the hunt by setting up hunts for other people like me. Do you help in tribal, do tribal members ever use you guys or how does that work or do you? No. No. They compete with us. Okay.

My biggest bull is a 339. Really? Yeah. Yeah, but... And I pass up a lot of 400s. I allowed my wife to kill one bull, and it went 437. She had the largest bull for a woman for many years. I don't follow it anymore.

So I don't know if she still holds that. But she had the largest bull. Is it still just as rewarding? just being out in camp and helping others achieve their elk hunting dreams? Yeah, it's just taking my wife and watch her take a cow elk. Yeah. That's fun. Yeah.

And it's fun. And now we're dragging our grandsons along on it, and they enjoy the hunt. Yeah. That's just being involved with family, getting them started. Then also, I mean, in camp. I mean, if I was in guiding, I'd probably still be sitting in camp. Yeah. So my wife would say when he was the only one really doing a lot,

hunts, I'd rush up here and come scalp for them or just hang out and follow them on the hunts and slowly started getting into it more and more. Yeah. Now it's the passion. Yeah. Passion. You have to have a passion for us. A lot of, even our guides, they're good.

They do their job, but they don't have the passion that we have. Most of the bulls that we kill out of our camp with our guides, both Mark and I, and we find most of them. Right. It's a, there's, you know, I understand that passion, that level, there's levels of passion, but I do see the community, they care about elk hunting.

Because like, I killed that bull last night, and there was quite a group up there. You know, I mean, we had babies, girlfriends, yeah, just other people. So it's, what, why does the community care so much about elk? Is it because that's what, that shines kind of a light on San Carlos. It's, it's, what do you think that is, why does the community care so much?

I think just being known for it right now for so long, 30 years. But when we do see, you know, like the state started killing big bulls, Kentucky was killing the bull, Pennsylvania, Montana, Utah, out of nowhere, started producing big bulls. It's like here, we don't really look at it as a competition and think of what they did. It's just like we just come here like Homer said, just the passion to enjoy all of it. And then for him right now to start bringing in other guides and passing on what these two know, even though some are not, you know, family directly blood close, but train, teach and pass some of this on for the tribe to continue this to keep. the management, the trophy quality.

So it is tough. I mean, I used to guide with them, and I did very well when I was guiding on the hilltop camp, but I've never seen it as a competition against any other tribe or any other state. It's just we come out here, and clients like yourself are paying money to get a big bull and working for Homer.

That was my goal as a guide when I used to guide. He's paying me to get this. hunter a big bull that's that's my job that's my goals yeah it's a I will say as an outsider coming in it's a for me personally I can't speak for anybody else it's a lot of pressure coming in here just because you guys as in as an elk hunter you know people look up to you guys everybody everybody knows the Stevens brothers I mean Homer goes to the most of shows and you know he might be I don't know more more people might know the name Homer Stevens, but for me coming in here, I just, you know,

I look up to you guys, I respect the land and the animals and the community itself. I, I, it's hard, it's hard coming in here. I know you guys have grown up doing this, but if you haven't, these bowls are like a whole another level, you know, you see normally a bull, a 350 bull is a giant bowl anywhere, almost in any stake. But here, you know, you wouldn't even really look at it at 350. It's like when it gets to 400, now we're starting to pay attention here, right? What would you, I mean, how do you see other people coming in?

Do you like sharing it? Is it hard to share it? Because I know when I was an El Cunner, I don't want to share my spouse with anybody. So I don't know if you guys are just more involved than me as far as being open or not. I share too much. Yeah. Like Homer said, some of the big bulls that we've taken or some of the other guides have taken.

It's because I was like, hey, I've seen this on here, I've seen this and there. Yeah. Before you know, it's on the ground. Like, I was going to go hunting, but it's still in our camp. So it's like not too upsetting, but I was like I was looking forward to taking it.

But, yeah. But, I mean, I don't mind. I mean, I have all my pitches and I just let the guys know the caliber of bulls. that are out there and what they should be looking for. Right. And so it kind of has, like I have like 350s to like 420s. And so you can tell the difference in the age and the horn growth and everything.

So I like to share with these new guides so they can see it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We have what your bulls? 137, 400 point bulls through our group. Whoa. That's amazing. Because 400 seems unbelievable for most people.

I know I had never seen a 400 ever before coming here. I still haven't seen very many, but they're here. And yeah, what age class is the perfect age for the bull's growth? Well, since I've been following them, probably the longest, I noticed that the bulls reach its potential in length, time length, and its configuration at the age 6. Then they started getting up close to the 400. But not until the age 9 is when they just bulk up. You get that mass and that heavy times and everything.

Right about the age of 9. nine. And everybody asks them, pay catalogs. We don't catalog, but we have all kinds of pictures of all the bulls growing up. You know, we know who's down there. It's still a guess when they come over the rim as to where they're going to pop out. And some of the ones we see down here go back the other way, and we look and can't find them, and then somebody driving home said,

hey, saw the bull down below. So, you know, it's hard work. Yeah. I used to get really stressed out before I started hunting with Dan Agnew. I've been with Dan for 30 years. This is his 30th year here. And I learned from Dan patience. Before, I'd see a bull that was just 400.

I'd see right there, right there, take them. Hunting with Dan, now I got a, I got a, to score and make sure he's going to net whatever Dan wants. So, Dan and I see tons of 400s. When I say tons, I say every year we probably see more than 10 of 400-point bulls that are going to net 400, and he don't shoot them. And I think that's why we see so many. Right.

You shoot them, that's over. Yeah, we go back out there. And what I've done probably about 25 years ago is I start, going and visiting the hunters at their place. And when I go there, I'll go golf with them, we'll go to dinner, watch a baseball game or something. But what I'm doing is I'm interacting with them and telling them what I expect.

They tell me what they expect. Well, we want at least a 400 gross, maybe 410. Okay, I know what you guys want. But what you need to know is what I want. or what I expect out of you guys, because in my mind and in my heart, I'm managing this all the time. I don't have a role in the department anywhere as being a manager,

but I think we do more managing from our position as guides than the department does, because we pick and choose and tell the hunters you know, what we kind of want and what we expect from them. And most of them are agreeable, and they do what we would like them to do. But when they first came out, we let them shoot whatever they want to shoot. You know, you've got to get rid of the jitters. Are you talking about me?

When you shot through the tree and ricocheted the arrow and never reached the old? Probably. Probably. That was the first year. I killed the tight bull up first year, so we ricocheted one in it somehow. That was a force shot. But anyways, it's like Dan Agnew. As many bulls as we see and as many bulls as he passes up that are 430s and 440s, when he finally sees the bull that he wants,

he wants a typical bull that's going to score over 420. We see him. He gets nervous. I mean, he sits there as calm as can be and watch these big bulls, seven yards walk by us. And we just sit there and they go around. And then we get up and smile and say, all right, another one in the books.

Yeah. Then move on. But when he sees the one he wants, he gets excited. Oh, okay. Same one with me. Yeah. I wouldn't do this if I didn't get excited. I understand.

I love getting excited for the hunters. I mean, I'm, yeah, it's like I killed him. Yeah. And then if he misses it, I felt like I missed it. I understand. Like seeing Mike's bowl, the one we just took, the seven by seven I seen first, I was like, whoa, and I tried to get video. I couldn't even, I was like, that's a big bull. I couldn't hold it steady, and I just quit video on and watched him.

I said, okay, when he comes out, I'll get better video. Then the other bowl comes out, but then I'm just like, man. This hardly ever do I mean I've seen a couple four hundreds together but the bulls that came out were huge Yeah, man those are huge like when Tim killed his 430 My hand started sweating like I was gonna take the shot Yeah, that's that one on the video right? Yeah, do you remember that kill? How how did you feel? I had already knew I wanted to hunt archery archery only. I shot at the camp. We used to camp down the road. These two went down. No client in camp.

Took a shot last light. My arrowrest broke. They shot at camp about 11. I told him I'm going to go with my rifle tomorrow because my arrow rest broke. He went home, grabbed his bow, came back. I was like you. I was shooting the bow like 2.30 in the morning and the headlights. So I head out, go and I go to dry late. I go around, come in. All the elk are out there, that big bulls out there running. I glass him. I'm about 150 yards from the truck. I glass and I see that big bull just running all over the meadow,

just into every herd, just trying to fight everyone. As soon as I see him, I lay my bow down, drop my pack, and I actually start running back to the truck to grab my rifle. I probably run about 50 yards. yards and I thought no my stop went back grab the bull grab my pack and I cut up on the ridge because all the out were going over the ridge into the canyon got on that ridge out we're passing right next to me cows bulls bugling going into the can and said man he's not coming so it got quiet I dropped down got to the meadow and there were still a few bugles

he came running from the south ran across there were two bulls fighting with cows and then he ran there, fought them. So I jumped back on the ridge, ran back, cut him off, cows, and the bull came up. He was probably 12 yards from me in the jack pines. I couldn't get a shot. So then I, later I went again. These guys started guiding again. I didn't want to go with anyone like the comment you made. I didn't want no extra movement, no extra scent, nothing with me. So I hunted alone, but I took my uncle Stoney with me the one evening I got on that bull and I took a shot and I shot over his back. So we finally went and at the time Dan Agnew had shot that big six by six. We were going to go shoot that bull that evening. So let's go shoot that six by six. It's okay. So we go up there, but when we get on the meadow, it's the big white bull there.

and it was just fate. We just sat and waited and he came, but wasn't the shot, I was, you know, that's not where I was aiming. Right, right. I'm kind of lucky. I believe the arrow hit my binos and the arrow dropped to the right and was able to cut both his arteries off his heart.

Oh, man, well, we'll take it. We'll take it. That was interesting, but even with that bull, that was a big bull, white bull, we were all there. It was fun. was great, enjoyed it. But I did shoot a big coos and I was more excited over the 136 than I was over that 430 bowl.

Oh, man. Yeah. I love the hunting stories. I will say I'll make one point about Dan just real quick because you said, I think patience is what you mentioned. So he's been here. He was here when I was here. I went to Colorado, did another hunt.

I came back. He's still here. So he's been, to your point, he's been looking through. through some bulls. You know, and that's, people might wonder, I asked him, I said, how many four hundreds do you have? And he said something like, 13 gross, seven net, something like, I don't know what it was, but a lot of four hundreds for one man. And it's not just, you go out one day and you see a 400 and you shoot it, you know, I mean, that patience is a key part. Do you think that, I have two things I want to say, but do you think that patience is one of the biggest keys in

killing a big bull? What would you guys think? Or what is the biggest key? Patience helps. I mean, right now you see the quality of bulls and when you're out there, you see some of them are young, they have the potential, give them a year, give them two years. They come back in and they see a 4-15 that broke off maybe two inches, Dan won't shoot it. He wants to shoot that bull and he's at his fullest potentials. You get a little bit of extra.

extra on there? No. Out of the patients and good hunters that want to. It's like, no, man, let's not shoot him. Just like last night, we're up at this one pond, and when we got there, there was a couple small bulls out there. Now all of a sudden this big seven-by-seven stands up, just completely soaked muddy and everything. Stood up, chocolate color right in the middle.

seven by seven that's probably going to gross right up 420 and net just over 410 real symmetrical and Dan's looking at him and he goes I can't see his antler

and I said well don't worry about it Dan let him feed back out because he got on the water walked up and started feeding and started coming back towards us then all of a sudden this big guy comes out big six this guy is probably going to net

easily in the mid-420s. And we're watching them. And the camera person that was with us is, are you going to shoot this? And Dan says, when Homer tells me to shoot, I'll shoot. And there were some more bulls that were still coming. So we watched this bull for a while.

I said, no, Dan, that's a bull you want. That's the bull you've been looking for. You gave up another bull that net at 422, So if you want to shoot, this is a bull to shoot. And he goes, what about the 7 by 7 down on the West End? I said, all right, we'll leave these bulls here. And we pulled out. And we actually watched the two bulls, the big 7 by 7 and the big 6.

That's 6 by 6. Just heavy, long fronts, long thirds. I mean, he had it all. I mean, identical on both sides. and he was probably 48 inches wide on the inside. He's standing in there. And I don't know if that was his offspring or what, but they got in the water and they got their antlers together,

and they just slowly rocked each other like that. And the camera person was going crazy saying, are you guys going to shoot or not? Yeah. And we said, no. Just watch the show. And then we watched them, and then another bull came in. a lesser six by six, probably about a 3.85, but he was a fighter.

He came in, got into water, and wanted to fight. Everybody left except the Big Bull. He stayed there. He said, all right, bring it on. He waited, and that guy walked around, splashed through water, and did fake charges at him. And then he backed off, and then they all walked away. And we pulled out, and we went elsewhere to look at some other out,

only because we wanted to go down on the other end and look at the 7x7. Did you get tonight? Did you go down there? No, this morning. Okay. We went down, got up on him, the long main beam, just mismatch here and there. And we won't shoot them. Like he had a G2 that was maybe about three inches shorter from this side.

It just stunned it. It wasn't broken. And his back's fourth and fifth were not what we wanted. He'd probably score fairly. well because he's wide and he's long main beam, everything there, but it's not what Dan wanted. So Dan says, no, we're not going to get him. We'll go back and look at the other bull. We have another bull down low, big six long main beam. So we went out there and looked, we can find him today. But we ran into another seven by seven that had a bunch of cows. And we just

watched them. And the camera crew or the camera person just said, well, I'm not going to say anything anymore. You got to do what you want. I'll just video. Yeah. But we see them like this. Right. That's a, I mean, it's a whole different level of elk hunting, really,

the way you guys, you know, just critique the bulls and just want the perfect specimen, essentially. For Dan, for Dan, he wants basically the perfect specimen, perfect representation of a giant bull elk. Yeah. And it's pretty fascinating. I was curious about this, which is, you know, You know, this might sound weird or crazy, but as much as you guys have been up here, do you think these elk know you in some way?

I mean, you spend so much time out there with them. They know me and dad. Yeah, they know those two. Go ahead. No, I mean, I get into them, but, I mean, I'm always roaming, looking, look, and looking, so I'm not always into the same herd. I'm always scouting.

I scout from my clients that I get them. from them but also I scout for Dan. So anything I find out, like hey, guys might wanna come look over here, you might wanna do this, but then they can walk through a herd and not, not. They don't spook, really? I mean, they know you guys, I guess. Yeah, well, the camera guy that goes with us most of the time,

he goes, you guys are the only guys that you watch the herd and then you decide, you're looking at 400 point bulls, two of them in the herd, you decide you don't want either one of them so you guys get up and you walk right down the center or herd and the elk just look at you anybody else you stand up and move the elk are gone spooked yeah and we just walk right on through and go to the next herd next herd that's just like um they they had the running of the bulls where's that at um in spain in spain yeah they have you can do that here but you're running with the bull out because if a fight breaks out i mean

Everything goes running to the fight. I mean, I've done running with other bulls. I'm running to the fight. Bulls are running beside you. They look at you, they jump. Then all of a sudden, they go running. And you're running through the trees trying to get to the fight also. So we have running of the bulls out here also.

That's incredible. I say it's like being William the foe and platoon, where he's running into the enemy. Yeah, yeah. We're running with the elk, right, to get to the main fight over there. that's a yeah pretty pretty special at an experience like that would have to be once in a lifetime it's I'd do it a few times yeah yeah that's that's amazing I've had clients where we've gotten into them like that and they're like if I don't kill because this hunt is already

a success yeah this hunt's already a success that experience yeah yeah um do you think that like with you guys because I I don't know if I did it right but I think that the elk can pick up on your energy, like if you, you know, if you have that aggressive type energy, the kill energy, do you think a prey animal can pick up on that? Yeah. From... It's just like, the way to explain it is, that I explain it, I watch, even the domestic animals and the wild animals, if a bear is on a prow, the animals, the animals know it,

and they become aggressive and start moving the real defensive and move off quick. Now if a bear's not on the prow, they'll just stand there and feed and let the bear walk down the center. Same thing with lions, coyotes. They feel it. I'm a true believer in that energy. They see it, they feel it, and they move away. But if you stay calm and don't show a lot of excitement, I'm sure animals see it, like they can see the blue color and all that type of stuff. But nobody's ever did a study saying they can see their energy.

But I'm pretty sure they either see it or feel it. Yeah, I believe that too. I mean, I know, speaking of your uncle Stoney, the last time I killed that tight bull, it was actually I hit it on the first shot, by the way. I didn't ricochet too many. Okay. But he said that the reservation across the river,

he said they were talking about they saw a monkey up in a tree that was me i climbed the tree so anyway i was a monkey in a tree last night and this so this bull younger bull came in i really wanted to shoot him he's like a seven by eight and i just knew i was thinking of you guys what i'd have to deal with if i shot this bull even though i thought i was an amazing bull he looked a little short probably to you guys right and so i just videoed him but i was you know it was like there's anticipation and I knew it wasn't the bull that you were telling me about. And so this bull rolled around, got all black with mud, and went back up, and then I heard another bull bugling off to my left.

They came off the hill from the west. And then this bull that left was bugling, and the bull that I ended up shooting was going towards him, kind of ran him off. And while he did that, I was like, I just needed to calm down, because I was like so ready up in that tree to shoot. And so I set my bow down. I had a little sip of this power aid out here from the cooler that was in my pack still and I had my pack up there on the tree and I just like just calm down took a sip. The bull I ended up shooting was I could hear him coming. He's viewing coming down the hill and I just kind of relaxed took a drink. My mouth is really dry. Calm down, got down and set it down and here comes a bull and it gets into the water and this is to the to the point maybe maybe that

we're talking about is that bowl standing in that arranged them at 51, calm as can be, held pick a spot and a shot, and he didn't move. He didn't move an inch. And I, so much so that I thought, did I miss? Did I miss this bull? Come on now. And I didn't see a flinch. I didn't see anything.

He just stood there. And I don't know if because there's no calling, you know, we didn't do any calling. He didn't see anything because I was, you know, the monkey in the tree. If he just didn't know what happened and it was so calm and then I was trying to be calm as a hunter myself, I ended up shooting him two more times before he got out of the water, and then he went 100 yards and died. But I wonder if that was from that, that staying calm. Do you think? I think if I would have been like all freaked out, he would have felt something?

I think so. Cut that quick movement. I mean, if you do quick movements, kind of thing. Yeah. But if you just move easy, I mean, you could almost move while they're looking at you. Yeah, just slowly. But if you do something like that, they see that aggressive and they will start to move off or jump from you off.

You know it? One of my secrets that we do with Dan is we'll get in and we're walking. And this one we used to hunt hard and go after the bulls and the brush. We'd catch a bull and we'd stop and all the elk would just pick their heads up and look at us because something was coming and all of a sudden they stopped so they're all looking. So what Dan and I start doing is if we see a bull in the brush and real close to us, I'll get Dan to stop.

But I stop also but I keep my foot moving. And then I slowly slow down. They never look. And we're close. We're 15. yards, 20 yards. So you're trying to do the cadence stuff like an elk walking? No, we just, we don't stop that noise.

Oh, okay, okay, I see. We just slowly slow it down, and this is the energy we're talking about. If we stop, right, there's a change. We both excited, we both look and the elk are gone. I see. But now what we do is when we see them, Dan will stop, or I'll try to get them to stop. Yeah. But I'll just keep my feet moving like I'm walking.

And then I just slowly slow down. And they never picked their heads and look, and they're 15, 20 yards away. They just keep feeding. You know, I think that, yeah, I don't know if part of it, I've overthought hunting a lot before, but I remember thinking about bear. Like when I'm hunting bear in like a bait situation,

the bear are messing around, whatever. and when a big bear is coming in, you can't even see it. It's like solid brush, but a big bear is coming in. The other bear are like, they know, and I wonder oftentimes if that's a harder,

it's just a bigger animal with a harder step, and they can feel somehow so in tune with the ground. Because I don't know how they know it's that big bear. They know who it is. Well, they all know each other. Yeah, sometimes the wind isn't that way, though.

So I don't know. Maybe I'm overthinking it. So, but I do want to ask, Tim, the guide life seems pretty exciting. Why, why did you go the director, the wildlife director route? What was your calling there? I've been there for so long and there was talk about who was applying and who was coming in. And I thought, well, okay, I need to apply. So I didn't, I got the job.

And I believe it was prior to that one. they actually stopped the guiding for all game of fish employees, all of them. So I even asked, you know, hey, I can give up my guiding, but don't do it to the rest of these people. And you're a ranger at this time? Yes, I was an investigator at the time. Okay. Hmm. And is that still the case?

That still stands, they put it in the ordinance. I see. So nobody from the department can guide. So is it as rewarding? as guiding, is it more rewarding? What's your feelings on? I honestly really don't even get to the hills until this month. If I don't make it out in this month,

it's not until October. The rest of the year, I'm always local meetings at work in my office. So it is good to be out right now at this time. Yeah. You miss it when you're not in. The guiding, the guiding was good. I mean, when you're guiding for big bulls, for some big clients that brings on some pressure.

Yeah. When you're trying to get something good, I mean, you know, we, these guys do it for the tribe, I do it for the tribe, for the people, you know, the name, the recognition, it's for the whole tribe. It's not, it's not for us personally, you know. We really represent everybody, everywhere, even people that are going to listen to this. It's for everybody that's from here, 17,000 tribal members, so we don't want to leave anyone out and you know to give credit to the guides at home or hires and the camp help you know they never

get recognized even though they're the ones feeling the guides and the hunters with food and keeping them going for the 30 40 days so they need their credit too yeah they do you this uh the crew you have you guys have up here i'm impressed with i mean um i don't know the food's been amazing uh i love it I love just the catmatt atmosphere sitting around the fire at night. It's a special place. You know, you wish you could capture moments like this in a bottle, and it just lasts forever. So, I mean, it's getting late here tonight, but I would like to hear, like, what's the future? What's your guys' goals, or what do you see for the future of the Stevens brothers?

I don't know. It's kind of like a dynasty from the outside in. I know you guys wouldn't say that, but where is it going? What's the goal? No, man. I mean, hopefully one of my sons is guiding, but he's in another unit. He starts next week. But, I mean, get the younger men in our family started.

I mean, our relatives, and even these guys out here, the veteran family, like Tim said, just keeping them all in the field on elk and show them, take them. time I mean I start the end of May right and if I can get some of the guys doing that too and it's just carry that on just work hard and try to get in there and it has to be in sight though doesn't yeah it has to be because I follow your Instagram and it's like it's just an evolution of the season essentially it's like you know it's a sheds it's the spring it's the the calves the velvet hours the then we get it to the rut then you know

It's just like you're out there all the time and it's captured in images because you do a great job out there. But yeah, I mean, I understand what you're saying too because I have, how do you make somebody feel what you feel as far as passion goes? You know, that's a hard part. You hope that it develops or they just have it. But I understand that. Yeah. What's your thoughts on the future? I don't know if I'll ever guide again, but if I retire within the same.

the next three or four years and these two are so active, I just might give it a shot. Retire? What do you like 40? I wish. But I mean, you know, as far as passing it on, if they decide to, you know, retire, get out, and do stuff on their own for themselves

with their kids, with their grandkids, I mean, that's something to do as well, but it's like, it's tough to pass on. the knowledge they both have everything that, you know, they've learned that they were taught, whether it was from elders, from our dad or anybody. It's really hard to pick and choose, like, you know, who do I share this with? Who should I teach? Can't just pick a random person or a random, you know, someone within the family even. We've got to give it to someone that's going to carry it forward. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I understand that.

Okay. I've been threatening to retire for the last 15 years. And all my hunters say, no, you're not. Yeah, no. We're not going to let you. I actually, I actually retired in 2000. No. How'd that go? When did that pass away? 2004? I just about stopped. I said no. And, um, Because of your dad's passing, it just... Well, everything. I mean, my dad passed, and there are other issues from the tribal guys and everything. And I just said, you know, it's enough.

I don't want to battle anymore. I'm just... I just move along, go play golf, go to Hawaii and stuff. But I... But I've been saying this, and... Dan Agnew stopped me from retiring one year.

Well, he didn't. My wife stopped me from retiring. I told Dan, this is it, Dan. I'm not guiding anymore. This is my last year. So five days before Christmas on the 28th of December, my wife's at the mailbox and gets a letter from Dan. And then there's a check in her name, not mine.

That's in her name. and all it says is don't let home or retire and my wife never goes against the decision I make I told her I was retiring and she was okay with it then she comes over and told me honey you're not retiring I go what? She goes you're not going to retire

I said but we already agreed on this one she shows me check says I want to cash this she got a big check and said don't let him retire, so. So I didn't retire. So he was buying her off. Yeah, but he's been a good guy. Yeah.

He's, he's, he's totally different from all the other hunters. I mean, we get billionaires that come through and they have their own entourage, they'll camp over there, over there, with their whole crew, they bring chefs and everything.

But Dan has always been one of us. He comes in, he sits with us, does what we do, eats what we eat. I mean, we cook snakes for the hunters and stuff, but there's other times when there's nobody in camp, and we, kind of what the natives eat, is what I call it. It's normal food, but it's simple. He never complains.

He sits right there and eats what does, and he sits around the fire all the time, and a lot of the other hunters, they didn't for the longest time. But now, since they see Dan out there, everybody's out there. They sit around the fire. So I think we created a different type of hunter that comes here now. They all feel comfortable with us. They're not going to someplace where they're going to be taken advantage of and everything. Everybody feels comfortable there.

And that makes everything work smooth. That's when the stress went away. and I said, okay, I'll keep doing this until I drop, I guess. There you go. And just keep doing it. As long as I have the passion for it, I'm going to keep doing it. I got my grandkids that hunt, my wife, my daughters, we all hunt. Tim's grandson, he started hunting.

Mark's kids, they all hunt. Yeah. Yeah, your son helped me pack that tight bowl out, didn't he? Yeah, he was out there with us. Yeah. And it helped my daughter out when she went to Afghanistan. on the rack. She's a good shot. Yeah, yeah, so she was ready, huh? Well, you guys built something special here for sure. I do, I will have to ask the, though, I thought that was the last

question, but it reminded you something, how do people get an opportunity to hunt here? I've always just told guys that the shows are people that call. If you get a call, make sure you pick up the phone, and if I ask you, you know, hey, do you want, I have hilltop open or dry lake open, If you have to say you need to speak to the wife, then you're not hunting with us. So after you said, no, I'm buying it right now. Some of them buy that quick. Someone said, no, I'll pay for it right now. I'll take the hunt.

So, yeah, it is, I honestly don't like the way everyone throws dry lake, dry lake, dry. You know, melee puts out good bulls. Nine miles got really good bulls. And people out there that haven't killed, like, you know, Well, when we're saying good bulls, we're talking like 390, 400. Yeah. Good bull to the average person is like 340, 350. For sure.

So when I was a hilltop, you know, I was able to guide on some good bulls. I saw some big bulls up there. 425, 428, 427. I mean, so sometimes I just, without telling anybody, I'm going to switch the names of the two units. I was like, hey, you've got tri-lake this year. Dry Lake is tri-lake over there now. They wouldn't know any different, I guarantee you. I mean, there's giant bulls.

I can name the Nine Mile Hilltop next year. Yeah. This will be Nine Mile. Dan's biggest bull came from Nine Mile. Really? Yeah, 458 from Nine Mile. Man, that is... And there was another one was 445.

Yeah. That came from Nine Mile. Oh, look it out. God was a Heartbreaker. See, all... What do you mean Heartbreaker? All the drugs. Dry Lake Bulls start out down there.

Okay. And then they come across and move back up here. They go all the way down off towards Safford, all the desert country. They go in winter down there. And then they slowly make their way back up here. So that's why Nine Mile can sell because in that period of time,

the Dry Lake Bulls are in Nine Mile. Yeah, it makes sense. Do the UFOs ever bring him back up? up here? What's that? Did the UFOs ever bring them back up here? I can't believe we didn't talk about UFOs. Referencing really helps a lot too for people that come. I get a lot of calls from other tribes that want to send people over, but I mean like Dan, Dan's been really good with some references that want to come. So it's always good. I mean, Dan's a guy that never left. I mean he used to hunt here even though we had what seven open hunts. Yeah. He would

be here alone. He would hunt hilltop sometimes. He would hunt here. You had seven, like you couldn't sell the hunts? Nobody was buying them then. Yeah. What? And this was 30 years ago or so? No, that's 20. About 20, you know? Yeah, about 20. Man, it's changed a lot now. Yeah, late 90s into 2000, 2001. He was, there were times he was the only one. hunting. Wow. Well, before Tim became the director, before that, there was another guy, but at one time, the biologist, I was hunting with Aaron Jones. He's a timber guy, I think. Yeah. And he was down here, and he was just like Dan, not as, I don't know what the word is, he's not down to earth like Dan is. Aaron was a little, a little stuffy, but he, he was,

He was good. I mean, he was a good guy, came down, and he wanted a big bull, but he was up there in age. And the non-members that worked for the tribe decided that he was too old, so they didn't sell to him. And he offered more money for the hunt than the three tags that they sold. He offered them more money for one tag so that he can come out and hunt. He actually wanted to get the tribe started on kind of an AI logging years ago. He's going to bring the machines down and read the logs where the best cuts are.

He was willing to do this for the tribe. No cost. He was just glad to hunt down here. And then the non-members that were the biologists decided that he's too old. He's not going to kill a big bull. So he was gone. And they sold the elk tags to some other people, and they chose different guides. So we left from Dry Lake, and we started hunting hilltop.

Nobody wanted to hunt hilltop, because nobody took big boots. I think that year we had four tags, and we took three, four hundreds. Wow. And then everybody wanted hilltop again. Yeah. And then they couldn't. The other guides. and the tribe couldn't sell the tags over here

because they couldn't find a guide that would work with them and, you know, do what we do. Yeah. So I ended up back over here again. And we've been here ever since, and that's been 25 years, 30 years. Well, it's before Dan came out. Dan's been here 30 years,

so it must have been like 35 years ago, and all that was happening. Yeah, it's a lot of it. Lots changed then since then. Because now it's like it's what people dream of hunting, just like me. Yeah. I really appreciate you guys sitting down and talking. Like I said, I've really looked up to every one of you guys for decades and now even more so just based on your elk knowledge and what I learned by coming here.

I've learned a lot. It's humbling to be here and be, you know, I don't know. It's just very special. want to thank you guys and thanks for the time for you don't sit down and do a podcast. I know you guys haven't done a lot of these. I don't know any. No. So this is very special.

Thank you. Well, you can do what you want with us. Go troll. Okay. Yeah. I hear you. I hear you. Well, all right.

Thank you. Did anybody have any last parting thoughts you wanted to share? I'm on four hours of sleep. I'm ready for four hours of sleep. Thank you. We were up too late looking at photos last night by the fire. You said it's after 11 right now. Tim, did you have anything? No, I'm good. Okay. All right. Well, thank you. Homer, Tim, and Mark. I appreciate you guys. And I hope you guys enjoyed this. Good special time. Appreciate it. Thank you.