Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 113 - Courtney Dauwalter

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

Join us for a discussion with Courtney Dauwalter, the world’s best female ultramarathon runner. Courtney and Cam cover their recent Spike Camp run, Courtney’s continued growth with the Pain Cave and a handful of questions from Cam’s peanut gallery. Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow Courtney: https://www.instagram.com/courtneydauwalter  Thank you to our sponsors: MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off  Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order MUD\WTR: https://mudwtr.com/cam use code CAM for 15% off  Timestamps: 00:00:00 Spike Camp Run 00:07:01 How Courtney Built Up Her Strength 00:11:47 What Keeps Courtney Motivated 00:13:21 How Courtney Decides on Which Races to do 00:17:15 The Unknown in Running Races 00:25:54 Navigating the Business Side of Running as an Ambassador 00:33:51 Ultra Running in the Olympics? 00:38:29 Ad Break - Hoyt & Montana Knife Company 00:39:38 Cam & Courtney’s Races So Far 00:41:37 The Woman from the Philippines & the Bible 00:45:47 Mexican Food & Crepes 00:50:32 Q - Courtney’s Knowledge in Jelly Beans 00:52:11 Q - Courtney & Cam’s Preferred Finish Line Songs 00:54:49 Courtney’s Love of the Mountains 00:59:29 Courtney’s Current Training Regime  01:00:54 What a Perfect Training Day in the Mountains Looks Like 01:02:33 Q - Who Cam or Courtney Run with if They Could Choose One Person 01:04:14 Q - You're Stranded on an Island & Can Only Have Three Things - What are They? 01:05:25 Q - If You Could Swap Minds with Another Runner - Who Would it Be? 01:07:42 Q - What Does the Grind Mean to You? 01:13:15 Q - What’s Better - Learning From Success or Failures? 01:15:24 Q - How Much Do You Value Doing Difficult Things? 01:18:44 Courtney’s “Pain Cave” 01:29:42 How Courtney Navigated Pain Before the Pain Cave 01:34:31 Inspirations in the Sport of Running 01:37:53 Q - Can the Pain Cave be Accessed in Other Sports? 01:40:47 Q - Is the Pain Cave Courtney’s Purpose? 01:44:53 Outro

Every step I take, I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop, I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel. Gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I'm moving so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. This is a Keep Hammering Collective with the one and only.

What camera are we on? What camera's live? 12. Courtney DeWalter. How are you? I'm so good. How are you? I'm good now.

I'm good now because we had this plan like, let's do something epic. You came out here. You said, I remember I said, yeah, stay as long as you want. We'll just get all the miles in. You said something like, okay, if I come out, do you have three days of training in you? And like to me, when you say that, I start sweating. I'm like, oh God, do I actually have three days? Because I'm really good at talking shit.

And like talking like I do fun stuff, cool, hard stuff. But then when you say three full days with you, that's scary. Yeah. Have I overstayed my welcome? No, no, no, no. No, I'm just worried about my body. No, I mean, it's so cool to like, yes, people are the best, you know, where it's like, yeah, let's try. Let's see what happens.

three days on the calendar and then to just be able to maximize that time together has been really cool. Oh, it's been the best. Like I said, I've been, I was nervous so, so I feel good now because we had pretty, for me, lofty goals. I mean, that's- Or anybody, that was lofty. Yeah, so our, well, just to start it off, we had my brother put together this race. He's kind of, it's been in the works for a couple years last year got canceled because of weather but it's called spike camp so my brother taylor spike um he wanted to do this we train on pisc all the time so that the vision was let's do this race called spike camp or not i'm not going to say not me i'm almost making it sound like i had something to do with it i had nothing to do with it other than it was cool

i just knew how much it meant to him so i just wanted to see it happen but uh spike camp is many for 12 hours as many summits as you can get on Pisco. Yeah. Which sounds pretty fun, right? Yeah. But to have an idea, then have it come to fruition, then have it happen and be a huge success. A lot has to go downright for all that.

But that was why I first texted you. I said, sent you the link, I think, maybe to the race and said, hey, how does this sound? You said 12 hours on Piscka. Can't get any better than that. Instant yes. Yeah, instant yes. And then building on that, you said, let's try to do 100 miles on three days.

So now since we're done with it, now I can tell you that was stressful. But I had so much fun just trying to keep up with you. Yeah, I mean, starting it out with Spike Camp and getting to just do laps on Piscka. It was a very simple task, just get up, get down, keep going with an amazing community. Like he put on such a great event, but then the people who showed up made it even better doing laps out there. But that took a big chunk out of our 100 mile goal. Yeah. So we hit 50 that first day.

And then it was like, I don't know, we can do this. Yeah. Yeah. We were like doing the math. We're like, okay, well, if we don't feel good tomorrow and we do one mile tomorrow, I guess we got 49 on Monday, which is the third day. I'm glad we didn't do that. Me too. Yeah, we needed to make sure the math works.

So when you're doing 50, 30, 20. And that was this morning to start off, rough for me, as you saw. But by the end, I feel like we were going pretty good. Oh, we were cruising. Yeah, yeah. What I want to get your thoughts on the, well, you kind of already said about the 12-hour on Piscop, but I want to hear more about, you know, kind of the people. just the, yeah, you mentioned the community, but I just can't get over how fun that was,

but also how people were doing more than they'd ever done, you know, like setting PRs. That's what stands out to me about it is when we were out there, everyone had in their head maybe their idea of what they would complete that day. And by the end of it, everyone, everyone said, I did way more than I thought I could. I did two more laps than I planned. I did one more lap than I planned. I stayed out here all 12 hours and didn't plan on it. And I think that format is really special because when you're just doing those small chunks as a lap each time, it's like you can surprise yourself and start another lap and just see. Yeah, if you got time on the clock left and you're sitting there and, you know, they had coffee down there.

They had, you know, soda snacks, donuts, donuts, a little buyer. So it was kind of fun because you just know that, okay, if I just grind out one more summit, then it's all back downhill, back to base camp, basically, and then fun time. And then like, I got time. Might as well. Let's do another one. Yeah. And that's what I think was happening with people hitting these huge PRs.

Totally. Yeah. I saw so many people just smiling, passing. It's just, I just can't. I don't know where you could get a more positive, healthy circumstance. It just was so special. Yeah. And that kind of energy, I think, passes around.

So you're getting good vibes from people as you're out there. So then it just, everyone's feeling it. Yeah, for sure. It keeps everyone in this really good space, even if they're hurting. Because it was hard. It's hard to climb a thousand foot climb over and over again. Yeah, definitely. I did want to say, like, so what I've learned in these last three days is that the difference between the greatest of all time and somebody like me.

And it's just like it is so hard. I mean, what you, I don't know, what you do, because you can just do your pace forever, it seems like. It's just like you get in this groove and it's, it's, man, you know, it's, I don't know. I don't know. How do you think you built up to being able to run as consistent in that pace, no matter up down, it seems like it doesn't very much? So how did you train your body to get there? I think a lot of years of just stacking little tiny blocks together.

to accumulate the endurance and the strength and, like, get my muscles and joints where that feels okay for everything. But, yeah, I mean, I've been running for a really long time, so I think anyone can get there. And you did the 100 miles, so we're the same. Like, we covered the exact same distance. Did the exact same climbing. Yeah, we did. We just spent 23 hours running together. That was fun. Yeah. Did we say the stats?

So I think the stats were, I can't remember we just re, we went down to Run Hub and kind of went over this. But we did 100 miles, three days, 24,000 feet of gain, and 23 hours of running. Yeah, roughly 23 hours. And that was the clock running. But it was basically 23 hours of effort. Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's what's, you know, we both have a. 200-mile race coming up. And I think that that is, you know, we talked about this today, too.

We'll probably have to recap a lot of the stuff because we've had three days of talking. I know. I couldn't believe you wanted to keep talking. People love you. They can't get enough. Yeah. It's not for me. I'm not a fan at all. I just want you to know I don't even hardly like you, but I know what these other people do. So this is for them. But, uh, Yeah, so what we thought, like we talked about today, is so we did the 50 miles and the one day, 16,000 foot of gain, so hard on our legs, good test on the legs. But that's kind of what a 200 mile is, is you start off feeling good, but how long is that going to last? You know, your body's only capable so much.

So you figure even if you felt good for 100 miles, you still have 150. You're going to have to grind it out. So similarly, we got that 50 done and then we had two more days on kind of beat up legs to make it happen. And that's basically endurance racing. 100%. Yeah, it was physically kind of simulating it

where our legs were just getting more and more tired over the days. But then probably some good mental stuff too where like stopping between those, you have time to think about it, your life choices. Yeah. How did I find myself in this situation? Yeah.

How do I get out of it? Yeah. I was trying to get hit by a truck when we'd cross the road. They admit their like good reaction time. But yeah. And another thing that we keep getting reminded about is, well, I keep getting reminded about, but when it feels like, so we'd stop and you get going. And once you've got a lot of miles and you're kind of, or I'm just speaking for myself,

kind of stiff, you're like, oh, God. Oh my God, this hurts. And then after a while, you're back in that groove. And that's the key to like to remember in these races where this training is is so valuable is that, yeah, this is going to be, there's going to be miserable times, but we fight through them. And then just like today and yesterday and many times over the course of these three days is like, then we're back in the groove.

And we're back. Good turnover. The pain, maybe we're just distracted a little bit or maybe it's, lessons, but yeah, just pushing through and get into a good spot again. Yeah. And it keeps happening. You got to start. Yeah.

You have to start or you never see. And that's even like a training run. I don't know if it ever happens for you or it's just like you're sitting there thinking about how you should run that day and the shoes are looking at you at the door. And it seems so hard. But if you just put on your shoes and start and you start walking out the door, you know, then the same thing happens. where you're like a little creaky, getting the legs moving,

but then a few miles later maybe forgetting that it was even hard to get out the door that day. Yeah. Well, I don't believe that you feel the same way I do. I feel like you get up and you just can't wait to go run and you're like, this is easy every time. But if you say, that's not the case. So, I mean, what motivates you? I mean, you know, you always hear this.

It's not, quote, this is different analogy, but it's not winning the first championship, but it's staying at the top once you get that. That's harder. It's staying at the top, you know, because you've been fighting, you've been fighting all the way up, you get to the top of the mountain,

and this is appropriate for ultra running. But so you've been at the top of the mountain. You've been the best. What continues to motivate you as an athlete? I still don't think we know what we're capable of. And if I can, you know, help experiment and find out a little more information about that, I think it's pretty cool. I'm driven a lot by that curiosity for what happens if we combine our legs, our body, our brains, like all the systems towards this thing and just see what's possible. and I keep being surprised by results or like what people do in this sport.

I think ultra running is a really cool way to just see like that potential of humans. And that's got me signing up for these like 250 mile challenges or 100 mile races or continuing to put in the training and the work. Yeah, it's a yeah, I don't know. I don't know what keeps you. I mean, it's kind of interesting to hear. But I was also curious hearing that answer. How do you decide what races you want to do or you're interested in?

Because doing Kocodona this year, you hadn't done it before. There's a couple longer, you know, there's a Monster 300. There's this race, which is 250. How do you decide how your season lays out? I set up my schedule based on what fires me up that year. So a lot of times it's the end of the calendar year I'm thinking of the next year and what's drawing me in. Is it a certain type of course, a certain length, a certain place in the world or different conditions that I want to test myself on? I think for these really long races, you have to be 100% internally driven to be on that start line.

You can't be told by somebody that you should do a race. You have to want it yourself because when it gets really tough out there, like that's what keeps you going is that internal piece. So, yeah, my schedule is based purely on that, like, curiosity and just trying to put together a season that I get to explore something that draws me in. So this year, Kokadona, yeah, I was really, I'm still really intrigued by the 200 plus mile distance. I think multi-day races are really interesting in all of the factors that come into play.

Sleep, nutrition, like, how can you keep your pace pretty efficient covering that amount of miles? And I did a few 200s quite a few years ago, and I knew I wanted to revisit it. So the Cocodona Corso, though, seems pretty cool. It starts down near Phoenix in the desert, you know, hot, dusty, cactus everywhere. And then you work your way north towards Sedona and then all the way up into kind of a mountainous region of Flagstaff where you're, you know, in the pine trees suddenly, like, summiting a pretty big peak there. So I like that point-to-point idea of. Like you have a mission and you have to get there. And what that looks like, we don't know, but it's forward.

Right. Yeah, it's, I don't know even know how to put it into words, but it feels like the 200s, the longer races, there's still a bit of the unknown. And you kind of made mention of it. But like if you look at the hundreds, you look at all this data these guys are getting into, I think David Roach, you know, does a good job of explaining this.

But it's almost, it's, it's feeling more like, not like a track meat, but it's like more. Like there's starting to be a recipe more. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. And just kind of breaking it down, whereas the long, the multi-day stuff, that recipe doesn't work. Because now you're talking about different, you know, physiology for different people, calorie needs, you know, because the high carbs, high calories is really taking a hold in the hundreds. And people are realizing, okay, we've been under fueling.

Maybe we need this high whatever octane carbs and calories. And hasn't really been made its way to 200s yet. Nobody's really put pen to paper really. So it's kind of like this unknown. And that's, I like that part of it. You know, yeah, because that problem is, you mentioned this all the time. Like, you know, it's basically you're solving problems out there and whoever can do it the best, I guess is going to have the most success. But isn't that like the one of the things you look forward to the most is kind of like the unknown, not knowing what's going to happen or how to react to it and figuring it out?

Absolutely. And I'll stand on a start line, you know, trying to just think through my rolodex of like problems I've experienced and then know that. I have all of these problems I've experienced in the past in different races, and here's what I did to overcome them, but this race will probably be something brand new. So then we just have to see when you're faced in that, with that challenge in that moment, do you have what it takes to figure it out this time?

Yeah. Have you found that like the more training, more intentional training, the better shape you in, the more experience you get, you can push those where the problems start out further in the race to where, so maybe when you first started your 200, maybe it's that Moab, you know, in 2017, maybe you think this is my first time and the problem started at, say, 50 miles, okay, now I got things I got into a dress. The better shape and more prepared you're in and the more experience,

are those problems starting later in the race and you're just getting by because you're better now? Or is it different every time? I think it's different every time. I think the problems can show up at mile one, no matter how in shape or prepared you are. Like those kinds of things can, like getting lost, for example, could happen anytime. Yeah, for sure. So I think that's kind of the cool part too is it's always a surprise. It often has nothing to do with like your preparation.

You did the best you could with what you thought you needed to do. And then it's just dealing with it as it comes up. But as the days get more, like as these races get longer, the recipe, I don't know if it's possible to have like a for a 200-mile or a 250-mile race. I don't know if there will ever be a recipe for it because there's just so many factors to. Yeah. that are different for every person experiencing it. Even something as simple as how much sleep.

Yeah. Which is just one thing. But like some people would say, you're going to be out here for more than two days, maybe get some sleep early. Yeah. And some people, like, fight off to sleep and try not to sleep at all. And yeah, so that's just one thing. Yeah.

And people attack it differently. What are you going to do for Kokodona for your sleep game? I have no idea. I haven't thought about anything. Yeah, we can't give that strategy away. Yeah, right. That's what it is. That's the secret.

I got it perfected. I just want to share it. But yeah, your answer kind of reminded me that those problems can start at mile one because were you pacing Sally when her, I think it was down there her feet, like at mile 30, were already thrashed. Oh, I wasn't pacing her, but I saw the film. Yeah, right. Yeah.

And so you can't anticipate. that because you think that, you know, her feet are tough. She's been doing this forever. Then I don't know what it was, a sock shoe type point is, mile 30, she's got more than 200 miles left on torn up feet. So how do you prepare for that? And I think she fought through and I don't know where she finished. Maybe she won. I can't remember now. But that is like, that's what those long races are about. It's just like you could never predict that's going to happen. But, okay, here's what we're dealing with. Yeah. That's what you're really good at that too. Well, I just think it's a fun part of the game. Yeah. So it's like trying to take it in stride. No problem is too big of a problem to figure out. And

time is often the thing that will help do that. And I think having, you know, people around you, crews or, yeah, just the people supporting your race who have that mentality also. No one's freaking out about anything. It's like, yeah. Like if I roll into an aid station and I've, you know, been having a big problem for the last 20 miles section

that I wasn't seeing them on. And I tell them that when I get there, the reaction is always, yeah, okay. Like, that's fine. We'll figure it out,

you know? Yeah. It's never like, oh my God. High alert. Yeah. Like freaking out that I'm telling them this thing. And so that I think just creates this atmosphere of like calm,

problem solving. nothing's a big deal. And I love that atmosphere for these races because I think it's the most effective way to try to cover 250 miles. Yeah. You can't freak out. No.

Yeah, it's, I just think it's so daunting for people to think about like how far that is. But the key is, yeah, I mean, you just break it down like aid station to aid station and there's going to be issues. and yeah, I mean, I know people have talked about your journey forever, but, or I mean, where you started like with the Run Rabbit Run to where you are now. It's like what has been the the greatest part of being, not just the best in the world, but like just the ultra, the ultra

running community. What, what do you love about that? The best part of this sport is the community And, I mean, coming to a thing like Spike Camp, you know, where we're all just out there doing laughs. Everyone's high-fiving and sharing stories throughout the day and at the end of the day. That's always the best part. And I think it's always emphasized or like enhanced or whatever the word is. But I get to travel to these races now to places, you know, I've never been communities I've never met. but it's the same thing. Like you meet these strangers,

but by the end of it, you're feeling like... A bond. Yeah. Yeah. Shared suffering a little bit or not even suffering because I know people were suffering, but you wouldn't know that looking at them. Everybody had a big smile, the high fives.

I mean, even we saw people today, I think, you know, from that event and still obviously talking about everybody's high, from just how positive. positive it was, but the guy on top of Piscuit today, just we saw him, I don't know how many times on Saturday, big smile. Same thing today. Wanted a picture with you. It's pretty awesome. Yeah, it's so cool. I mean, the people drawn to these events or the events and the atmospheres they create, I don't know which comes first, but just the community in this sport is the highlight for sure. Yeah, I don't know. I could, you know, we talk about like this,

the great performances everybody had you know ashley nordell did great we had a couple other guys who just killed it all day um then we had mario from renegade did 10 summits you know so um just just little wins like that people like we saw uh this husband and wife yesterday and we saw him again today and i don't even know i don't think they were even in it but they were there during it and then she wanted to do five summits yesterday we saw a woman with her with her um kids today that said she did four or five that day. And it's just like, man, that just never gets old hearing the impact because you know they'll have these stories. They'll, they'll have seen you. They'll be able to tell the story about the time they saw Courtney on Mount Piscata.

And it's just like, I don't know, it could definitely change people's lives. And for me, I think about this sometimes like with bow hunting because when I started boating, hunting. All it was is because I love bow hunting. So then it, you know, I don't know what happens, but things change and it turns into like, you know, you still love it, but then it's like there's this business part of it. So that's a long way to lead up to like how, how has that change been for you? Because you started, just like everybody starts, you just love the community being out there and testing yourself. Then how turning like evolving into the business business. part of it. You still have the love clearly because you're in your element. How do you navigate the

business part of being, I mean, you have value to these companies, your sponsors. How do you navigate that? It's been the most important out of all of that that the love stays there. So it's like I'm doing this because I love it and I love the training. I love the racing. I love of how, you know, those difficult moments. And Kevin and I, my husband, or like, if that's ever gone, this isn't, you know what? Like, I don't want it to be a job ever. Right.

And so it's definitely been keeping that, like, joy and love for it as the main character in, like, why we're here and what we're doing. And then I just feel like so lucky and, like a lot of disbelief that it can be a job. Like I can do this right now as a way, you know, to make a living. And that feels like I never would have predicted that path or that story. Oh, I'm sure. I mean, how could you?

Yeah. Yeah, because when you first started, I mean, you've, I know your story very well, just from talking to you, but also been a fan. So I know you've always had this like affinity towards endurance and this talent for endurance. But it is hard because I did it too. It's like anytime I would get a sponsorship when I first started, it'd be like, I would do this shit for free. And you're going to send me what? A hat?

That's cool. A sticker? Awesome. And then all of a sudden, then you're like, well, wait a second. So they're making money off me. Should I make money off this? And it was like it was so weird. Because you do it for nothing, having the money part come in.

It's just like it was always hard for me. But then you like get to this place where it's just like, wait, so they're like my name's on the shoes and they're selling how many shoes? And I'm getting, it's like, then you start put, you know, kind of putting the pieces of puzzle together like, I mean, I get that I love doing this, but yeah, I don't know. It was just a hard one for me. Yeah. And I mean, ultra running has grown a.

ton since I got into the sport. And so initially, you know, 10 or 12 years ago, it was a lot of, you know, just free product was what companies could do for ultra runners. And with the sport blowing up like it is, a lot more people are aware of ultra running and what it actually means to do an ultra. Yeah, it's just taking off. And so with that comes, you know, the professionalization. of the sport and a lot more companies who are supporting athletes in the pursuit of this sport. Yeah, I mean, personally, I love it.

It's just, you know, I'm talking about these personal experiences about, you know, turning something you love into a profession. But I do, like we go to the run store today. I see you're on the cover of a magazine. I see your tailwind up there, your flavors up there.

So you see, and I love that because I've always said, that like ultra runners, the dedication and the sacrifice to get in all those miles to work so hard, that is worth something. You know, it is, there is value there. And then you see it in the store. I just want like athletes to be compensated for how much worth they're putting in. And so you've really shown the light on women in this type of, you know, the ultra community.

Because it's like the women, I'm not saying there's no guy star, But like they're stars and women ultra running. And that's that's awesome. I hope that the compensation, you know, follows too just because I know how freaking hard it is putting these these miles together. And it's, man, you see like some of these other sports and what they make. And it's, I know that people will look at anything and they'll say like, oh, we don't want to, you know, we don't want to lose what makes it special.

And that's true. We saw this weekend, we haven't lost it, it makes it special because at Spike Camp, we saw it. But yeah, it's always like an interesting balance between professionalism and passion. Yeah, absolutely. And it will be interesting to see in these next 10 years, 12 years, 20 years, what the sport does, where it goes, like, what does that professionalization of it look like in practice as it keeps on exploding? And I feel lucky to be in the sport at, you know, this moment.

It feels really cool for everyone involved in it. But like you mentioned, women, you know, blowing the roof off things and off expectations of what was possible for women in this sport. So it just feels like a really cool wave of momentum happening for everybody in their pursuit of, like, how far can I go? How fast could I do it? how many snacks can I eat along the way? Yeah, it is great. There's some great storylines. I just, yeah, I love everything about it.

I mean, I'm addicted. I'll, you know, listen to all the podcasts, love hearing about, you know, nowadays it's like, oh, there's shoe sponsorships and like these people are switching to this brand, to that brand. That's like been a thing, which there are some growing pains with that. But as we've talked about, it's just good to see. It's just good to see this evolution. But I think like that doesn't guarantee it's always going to be like this because I know like when Tiger Woods came on the scene and for Nike golf, it was just like Nike golf blew up because of Tiger. He wears red, you know, whatever on Sunday, that one epic shot, I don't know if it's a master's, but whatever, ball rolls up.

It's like the Nike logo's right there, right on the edge and then it falls in, right? that branding and now but here's a here's a crazy thing so you had your star you had the moment you had everybody cared about tiger everybody cared about Nike golf they probably made billions now Nike golf is there is hardly any Nike golf I mean tigers not there they don't they hardly sell anything so it's weird how something so big can just disappear yeah But, yeah, I mean, it doesn't guarantee this is a right direction. This is a good direction. And I hope it just continues to flourish, which you'd think it would because it's so amazing.

Yeah. But I thought that Nike golf stories kind of interesting. Yeah. I mean, we're probably a little biased, but it's a really, this is a really cool sport. Yeah. I think the live streams are a pretty fun edition that's been happening in the past few years where people can tune into these races from anywhere in the world and see the types of trails that the race is on,

see some of the competition or, you know, those hardest moments out in the middle of nowhere are suddenly like broadcast to everyone to experience. Yeah, it reminds me too, because again, I do get addicted to the live stream, the GPS tracking, you know. I've followed your dots a lot in these races. But, oh, that's what I was going to say. I was going to ask you about this.

Here's one thing that I've been secretly hoping for. Oh, boy. I know. No. The Olympics and ultra running, I would love to have all the stupid other shit in the Olympics, break dancing. Why can't we have Olympic running? I mean, not Olympic running.

Ultra running. You know, I mean, I know people would stay tuned. I know they'd be engaged. I'm actually surprised we didn't talk about this on our three days of running. I know. Why didn't we? This never came up. Yeah.

What's your thoughts on it? Well, what would be the format you think would be cool for Olympics to host? I mean, you can start with a hundred miler, wouldn't you? Yeah. I mean, that's,

but is it like a mountain course? Is it, you know, small loops so that they're filming way more and there's way more checkpoints and like cheering? I haven't thought about all that stuff. But I just know, you know, they like to have it all on the same venue, but I know they do have events at other places.

So I know it's not impossible just because, you know, where you're going to run 100 miles around the track stadium. Right. So it's probably going to have to be somewhere else. But yeah, I'd love to see the amount. I just know like how much engagement those, the live tracking gets. And, you know, people are watching Olympics for 10 days. So you can't tell me they wouldn't pay attention for, you know, a full day.

Yeah. I mean, they'd be checking in on all that. And it's like that's when you talk about the Olympics and how basically how, you know, the marathon started with, you know, running to, to where the hell? Anyway, the guy died or whatever the story goes. But point is, it's like it's always been endurance running, right? Yeah. And that would be cool.

Yeah. Why not? Yeah. I just don't know what format would be the coolest as like, it's like the chance to show the sport to the world to people who have never heard of it. I think they'd love it. What does it look like as that exposure, you know? Is it the 100 miles in the mountains or is it a Biggs backyard type format where you line up every hour for four miles? That'd be rough. Or is it a 24 hour race on the track, you know? Like there's so much. many formats in the sport. And going into the Olympics, it's like full mainstream, you know? So then what's the exposure or what's the event that represents? It would blow up. I mean, because there's

people that watch the Olympics that have no idea that people even run ultras. Yeah. You know, so it would just be exposing all the world to this, this special event of a human endurance, which It's kind of where it all started. And it'd be just be fun to like, okay, this is for Olympic gold medal. Yeah. I mean, so I've like in my, I've always said, I want, well, you're still like crushing it in your prime. I really want the Olympics to happen just to see that. Because you compete with women from around the world.

Let's just do it on the Olympic stage. And, you know, the guys too, of course. It's like, I'm sure, you know, there's people out there who would just, you know, couldn't get enough of that. And I know the Olympic committee, they'd have to see the value in that. Yeah, I don't know what the process is for getting sports added or taken out. I don't either. Somebody needs to get on top of it. So you're in?

You're in if they do it? I mean, I would have to qualify and then we'd have to make sure that the uniform had long enough shorts. All right. Yeah. Okay, we got some hurdles. Yeah, because they, yeah, I don't know how, I don't know how much personality variance they give. The track uniforms just wouldn't work. So definitely not long shorts, are they?

Yeah. I don't know, but even today we had somebody tell me I had cute shorts, but not tell you. Yeah. So what about that? That was a bummer. Yeah. What else? I did get a nice socks.

That's right. And what were your socks? Tie-dye. What brand are they? They're in gingy. They're the toe socks. That's right. Yeah, that's your go-to, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. How are your feet after our 100 miles? My feet are good. My body's not good. Is anything cramping up right now? No, I survived. I was just trying to survive.

I feel, I mean, people talk about whatever, hey, what race you're getting ready for. All I'm getting ready for is to run with. you. That's it. Just like running with you is harder than any race I've ever done. So it's my life goal to always be moving enough to be able to say yes to ideas. Yeah. Anything. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're you're always like down for adventure. So I love that definitely. Yeah. Well, likewise. Yeah. No, except not hunting yet, which I've been trying. I know one of these years. We'll make it happen. Yeah. But man. Yeah.

Our last, this has been good because I'll just recap. We've had, let me think, we ran for 26 hours together once on Colorado Trail. You don't remember, but I do. I was there. Maggie was there. Paul was there, right? Yep. Yeah, so that was fun.

We did, like close to 50 out of Golden with Tofer that one time. I don't know. I can't remember how many he did with us, but I know. know we did close to 50. We did the Grand Canyon, rim to rim to rim. Which is about 50. Yeah. And that was a good day.

That was a great day. Yeah. That was amazing. Is that all our big runs? Have we did more? We did 100K of Eugene last time I was here. A tour of Eugene. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100K from the house. Fantastic. Yeah. And anything, any other big ones? And some summits in Colorado.

Some 14ers. We've done, I think, six. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And then add this on, man, pretty epic. Yeah. Pretty epic.

Well, I know all you love to do is just nonstop talk about yourself. So we're going to have to take a break. Is this commercial break? Yeah, we have some questions from the peanut gallery, which is Connor and Gideon. I told them, I said, the goal is to trick Courtney into talking about herself. Wait, so these two have been with us for all three days, 100 miles. Yeah. And each covered like 50K.

Yeah, I know. They did good. That's so cool. Well, no, all I know is that unscripted, unplanned, unwhatever showed up with McDonald's today. And I was like, my back was against the wall. I was like, how can I get out of finishing this run? And that was like a mile. What were we at there?

We were at 12 and we had eight more to go. Yeah. And then they show up with hamburger and fries. Man. Yeah. That's what got me through. Five stars. I wouldn't have been able to finish without these guys.

But also I tasked them with coming up with questions. So let's see what. This feels stressful. Also because I can't see them. So they just get to like. It's like coming from the dark of night. Yeah, exactly. It's like, is this God talking?

talking to us. What was that? We want to hide with some of these questions. Oh, that's probably the first. So, hey, we've just seven, no F bombs. So supposedly she's prim and proper. She doesn't say the F word, except for when she's yelling at me. But, but not on here.

So no F bombs. Okay. No F bombs. But before we get into the questions, will you tell the story about the woman from the Philippines? in the Bible? Oh, yeah. So we went for yesterday, we took a refueling hiatus

and had some Mexican food. Yeah, so our goal for the day was 30. Yeah. At 22, we decided we needed some real food. Right. So in real food was tacos and chips and salsa, right? So we're leaving Chapalas, which is one of the favorite places I like to go here in Eugene.

And we get waved down from, a crepe-s factory. I can't remember what's it called. Tea swirl. T-sorl. So, wanted us to come in to have some crepes, which those crepes looked really good, and then they tasted amazing. Yeah. Who says no to crepes? Nobody. Nobody can. No true American. So then we go in there. We have our, you know, run of the place, got whatever we wanted. But I think it's, man, let me think. It's the owner's, mom or mother-in-law. I can't remember how it worked,

but she was the nicest lady ever. So she tells the story, her dad was born in 1904. He had a little pocket Bible, and he was, I believe it was World War II. He was in the 40s, and she was born after this,

but he has this pocket Bible. A bomb goes off in the war. Shrapnel's flying everywhere. A piece of shrapnel goes through the Bible to Luke, I can't remember the scripture, but makes this hole in the Bible and stops in the Bible over his heart. So basically saved his life.

She wouldn't be here if, you know, her dad would have died at that time. So she had the Bible with us and showed us. It was insane. How amazing was that? To see the actual hole was pretty wild. Yeah, that's a, and as we said,

divine intervention, you know, summarized exactly, exactly because that was the Bible actually saving his life pretty pretty incredible but uh and i just I don't know if I've ever met like uh like I don't even know just the nicest like most friendly person is what it seemed like to me yeah seemed great they were wonderful and the crepes were delicious yeah but then the bummer was we had to still get our miles done so after a bunch of Mexican food and crepes. It seems like a good time to like just call her quits.

Yeah. But no, we still had eight more miles. No. And we ran. Yeah, we ran back to your house from there. Yeah. And you were just hauling. What?

I was being dragged by a leash behind you. Just tried not to throw up everywhere. Yeah, the best part was like when we saw this lady walking with her friend and she recognized you and knew that you had run on Saturday. So she says, oh, something like still running or whatever, but it was right at the time you were like almost threw up. Yeah, I'm like trying to hold it together through Eugene. That was fun.

But yeah, it was like having a belly full of all that stuff and then still have to get seven miles in. And it's like, you know how it is with these races? You can go slower. It's just you're just going to take longer. So just go faster and finish. Let's get this thing finished. So that's kind of what we did last night.

Well, yeah. That was because you wanted to finish. I would have mozied. Yeah. I don't know. Did you ever look? What was our pace coming back? I don't know.

I was seeing stars. Yeah. But it was so fun. And I mean, that's got to be useful in some way. Maybe at Kocodona. Yeah, fighting back puk. Thankful for those moments. I think so.

Yeah. I think it was a great night. No, it was just, it was a beautiful night running, just to put it in context. We ran from Eugene to Springfield along the river. As beautiful as it gets, you can't get a better setting unless you're in the mountains. But just running through the city after a great day, it's like I couldn't have. The sun was sort of setting. Yeah.

It was really perfect out. Crisp air. I feel like when people think. about, you know, what's it like to be a runner? I feel like that's what it's like. And just a perfect setting, environment, getting to miles, running in, you know, just on a bike path along the river, it's like, that's what that's running to me. Yeah.

It's like, that's why we do it. Yeah. So great. Yeah, it was cool. That was a really cool entire day. But that afternoon was pretty fun. Pretty special. Okay.

Are we ready? Sure. No. I can't hear anything in these. What? Okay. Love, Mary, Kill, Mike and Ikes,

black licorice, and Swedish fish. It's rude because I told them these are some of my favorites, so he knows I want them all. No one's dying here. You can't love them all. You can't,

what is it? Oh, you can't marry them all. So. I mean, Mike and Ike and Iks are, really high on my list. So I'm keeping those around. Those are Mary.

Mary and Mike and Ikes. Swedish fish are always good. Love. And then I'm sorry, good in plenny's. Got to lose you. Killing them. But like, but not really. Well, okay.

We'll get the defibrillator out. Yeah. If it gets to it. Yeah. Yeah. If you run out of the other ones, you got to revive them. Maybe make it happen.

Not all the way dead. Have you ever had Good and Plenny's? The black licorice covered in the sugar coating. I don't like the black. I don't like black. I like red licorice. I don't really like the black, but they have other flavors, right?

Of Good and Plenny's? Yeah, isn't there like white? Is it all black? Well, they're all black licorish, but they're covered in like pink and white sugar coating. So they look like there's multiple flavors. Oh. Oh, I see, I see.

I don't have a lot of experiences. Black licorice is very polarizing. It is. There might be a lot of hate for that. No, it is. That's a very, yeah. I don't know if I, I don't want to get into that. Details of all that.

I'm pretty much red vines. Red vines or dye. Yeah, and plus, like when you eat the black licorice, then your teeth are all black, right? Yeah. Is that good? Okay, so that was the first question. Not too bad.

That wasn't too bad, was it? Okay. Okay. I'm not scared. What is a non-running-related skill or hobby that you think you're good at? Oh, I can identify all 49 flavors of jelly belly jelly beans by their color and pattern. Wow. I feel like we should put that to the test.

There's 49? 49 flavors. So what's your favorite? Juicy pear. Oh. They have popcorn, right? We do have popcorn. Buttered popcorn?

Yeah. I know I've had that one. I don't know if I could identify, but they got, see, that's the thing. If I'm not looking at them and I put in a black licorice one, not good. I know. If you're going by the handful, black licorice and cinnamon usually wreck the party. Right. Yeah.

They just kind of make their own, yeah. forge our own path and then the other ones can't follow. Wait, what skill would you have answered for that question? I wasn't listening. What was the question? The question was, well, okay, what's one non-running or bow-hunting skill that you're good at? I mean, hurting my feelings. Yeah, I was going to say I'm pretty good at being mean.

I mean, that takes practice. You're just not born good at, you know, making people feel terrible. That takes reps, baby. So, yeah, I'd say that. That's a good one. Okay. Okay. When we were driving back, Cam showed you urgent by foreigner.

We want to know if you could have any song, has to be one song, though, that plays when you crossed the finish line of every race. What's it going to be? Prince, let's go crazy. That's a good one. Dearly, beloved. Yes. We are gathered here today. Actually, I think we need a little soundtrack. Let me play this. I mean, frankly, I'd rather be my walk-up song to the start line, than my finished song. Okay, so is it two different songs then? I've never thought of a finished song. Yeah. I mean, finish is like, you know how

you know how baseball players have or closers have like a song that comes on? Yeah. Like Mariano Rivera was Inner Sandman. When they're walking up to the plate. When they're walking to the mound. Oh. So Mariana

Rivera for the Yankees. When you'd come in to close out the game, I think it was Inner Sandman, which is pretty iconic one. So your prince, not Purple Rain. Let's go crazy.

Let's go crazy. Not I would die for you. That's another good one. I mean, walking up to a start line with that. That's a good one. Okay. Okay. Good.

I like that. Good job, guys. Oh, nice. Nice. We had the flashlights going with the light on the phone. The whole crowd is going crazy right there. Yeah. You see that?

Easy, easy. Did you ever watch? Did you watch Purple Rain, the movie? No. What? You said you like Prince. Yeah. You need to watch.

So you haven't watched Purple Rain. You haven't watched without limits somehow. You haven't watched First Blood, from what I understand. What you said maybe it was on in the house. Man. She also didn't know that Mike and I split up. So she calls herself a fan of these things, but. You guys duped me.

to come here. This is a roast. This is the Courtney DeWalter roast. You're right in the middle of it. Okay, you guys were talking about Ultra being in the Olympics and talking about all the different formats. So if there was a Courtney DeWalter race, what would be your perfect format? But it's not in the Olympics. It's just so.

Yeah. Or what would you choose for the Olympics? That could be the question too. I just, I love those mountain hundreds. I think when you're looking at the terrain you're covering with your tiny feet, you know, and it's like I got to get over that mountain way over there and then, you know, string together, whatever. I just think that's the coolest feeling of being out there. And I would say that right now.

Is it like how small you feel? compared to how grand the mounds are? Yeah. Is that what it is? Yeah. And like the exploration piece of the whole thing. Like with your feet and your eyes, but also in your brain of, you know, how can I get myself to summit that peak that I'm looking at way over there? You know, like I know that's part of the course.

Yeah. I just think it's really special. And on those trails, you're often like the only way people see. those same views that you're seeing then is if they get there by foot also. You know, you can't drive there or like fake your way there. Like you have to work to get that view and that summit or whatever. And I think that's pretty cool. Yeah, definitely.

Is that like have you always been, because you haven't lived in the mountains. You grew up in Minnesota. Yeah. So when did you start to love the mounds or when did that happen? And didn't they, did the mounds ever seem intimidating for you? at first. Yeah, absolutely intimidating. Growing up in Minnesota, we would, you know, sometimes get to come out to Colorado to ski or something in the winter. So I got exposed to them and knew they were a cool thing that had a lot of activities on them usually. But I didn't actually try to

like move through them uphill specifically with my feet until I was out at the University of Denver where I went to school. And then just being, seeing the mountains every single day, getting to be on the trails in the mountains. It was like, I never want to take this view and this thing for granted. I remember a friend of mine in college whenever we would be walking to class and we'd see the, because Denver is pretty far from the mountains. The mountains are like very cool skyline, but you're not in them. and we would always be like, that view will never get old.

Right. Those things will never be taken for granted. And then to get comfortable in the mountains, did you just take like shorter stints and just kind of get used to it and like what it would take to survive back there? And then all of a sudden you were hitting the, what was the first peak you hit? Do you remember?

Gosh, maybe in college we did one of the closest four. 14ers called quandary. But for sure when I was on my own, I wasn't venturing right away into the big mountains. I was trying to just survive the foothills, the stuff leading into the big mountains. Yeah. You know, right out of the city, you could get on some of those trail networks and it would be choosing something that feels like accessible and like bite-sized enough to try and see what happens. But then just building that confidence and those skills to like go out farther away from a

trailhead. Yeah. But initially for sure I was staying pretty close and just trying to figure it out, like figure out how to move on these trails, figure out what kind of gear I carried with me, how to stay upright even. I fell so much. Yeah. But it's a learning process. And for me it was, it took a bit because I had run roads always, but never, like, rocky trails. Yeah. And so I never carried things. I never ate while I ran. Like, you know.

So that was just a process of, like, being good with learning it. And then how now are you just 100% comfortable? It's like, you can look at any peak and you're like, I want to hit that one. And, oh, I was curious, too, about so you're training now, is it just, I'm going to be gone all day and we'll see what happens. Is that what you do or do you have a plan? I'm not usually gone all day. Yeah.

Maybe in the summer I might plan out some bigger routes in the mountains and know where I'm going with that. But I live in Leadville, Colorado and from my door I can access a ton of different trail network. So a lot of times it's just let's load up a pack in case. and then just see what I decided to kind of connect for this run. But, yeah, I think I don't feel invincible out there. Like the mountains I know still win. And so I don't have that sort of feeling,

but I do feel competent to figure stuff out out there. And if I see a peak, I would feel competent to, like, go get it if I wanted it. Mm-hmm. But I don't think anyone should ever feel like totally expert level in the mountains. Right. It'll humble you quick if you do. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I understand that. Like, so when you think of now on a day like that, when you're loading up your pack, you're getting ready, what's the perfect day for you? Perfect day in the mountains on a training day. What does that look like? If you come back and you're just like, that was amazing.

Yeah, that would be a summer date in Colorado with no storm clouds rolling in and maybe making like a big loop with some 14ers in it, some of the Colorado Trail in it, dipping from streams to refill my water bottle, and then like some leftover pizza or something delicious in my pack for somewhere along the way. And do you listen to music or podcast or what do you do? Nothing. Really? Yeah.

Just raw dog it. No music. That's what they're saying. Like when they fly on a plane, like with no music, no anything, they say they rodog the flight. Yeah. I'm just saying what they say. I'm not saying anything. Don't kill the messenger.

Yeah, no, I like the silence. Silence, yeah. Just feet on the rock. Yeah. Just cruising. Hear everything around you, sometimes thinking about a lot of things and sometimes thinking about absolutely nothing. I think it's perfect.

You can't think about nothing. How do you think about nothing? I mean, you just air swirling around in there. Okay, when you think about a lot of things, what do you think about? Politics. Okay, what's the next one? Okay. So during Spike Camp, a lot of people were super thankful to you guys for being there, showing up, getting to run with you.

So this one's for both of you. If you could run with any one person, any one person dead or alive in history, who would it be? Courtney DeWalter. Cam Haynes. Lame. I know. I know. Boo.

That was boo. Um, so the last time, or I don't know if it was the last time, but when I was asked this question, recently in the past few years, it was my mom. You guys can't come up with fresh questions. I fucked up. No, but. That was all James. But what I was going to say is my answer was my mom, and then my mom and I ended up running 100K together. Yeah. So you could really manifest something here if you say the right name.

I'd listen to that podcast. And then whoever you're talking to said, now you need to say your dad. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Because you need to make him get out there. So yeah, you can manifest it.

But yeah. So Courtney's her dad. Yeah. Right. Or did you switch it up or is that still what you're after? No, I'll say my dad. That would be so fun. Yeah.

No, your parents seem great. Yeah. I've met him a few times. So I'm like, yeah, on the Colorado Trail. That was a rough one. you're doing there's a hard one at the end yeah

Courtney would be who I don't want to run with you get around with the goat right is how you get better okay what next hopefully you haven't heard this one before probably have yeah you're stranded on a desert island oh god

you can only bring three things what are they Mike and Ike Swedish fish and good in plenty oh geez so you're not drinking anything what are yours cam well I need a bow

so I can kill shit so I can survive probably like some tanning oil tanning oil yeah sure I'll have that I don't know if I want that as my one three thing so like that'd be down the list um god I mean I would take my bow

a shelter and some way to treat water. Pretty boring. So you're surviving and Courtney's going out. I'm thriving. Going out with at least good taste. She's here for a good time. They'll find her just covered up in all her candy.

Okay. This one you might have heard before, but if you could swap minds with anyone during any race, who would it be? like in that race. Does that make sense? Are they also running? Yeah.

Yeah. Any other competitor in the race? Oh, they're in the race? Yeah. Man, that's kind of dicey because you never really know

what people are thinking. That's true. Yeah. Like their face could look one way and it could be a real storm in there. Like if you're coming through just crushing it smiling like you always do and then I'm like,

okay, I want her mind. And then your mind comes in my head. And you're like, all this like, I'll kill them. And it'll be like, holy. Courtney is losing, losing her mind. See? But you would know. So that's a risk.

That's a risk. Yeah. I mean, do you have those feelings during race? Do you want to kill people? No. Okay. Well, that's good. So maybe I can answer that.

Maybe that's my choice then. But yeah, that's a tough one. Because running an ultra, you're acting a lot because how you portray yourself kind of impact how you feel. Yeah, 100%. You know, they say like if you're smiling, you feel better, right? Yeah. Even if you don't want to smile. Yeah.

So, yeah, it's a, I don't know, that's it. That's kind of a good question. But yeah, you don't know what you're getting into with that one. Yeah, I feel like I don't know if I would gamble. Just keep mine. Yeah. Like, what's going on over there? I don't know.

I feel pretty safe. Like, I could, like, it seems like I'd want your mind. Like, you're, like, pretty bulletproof in those moments. Like, you don't want my mind. I can tell you that right now. That would be disaster. You'd be like, this guy's fucking nuts. So just heads up.

If this comes up down the road, just remember that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. This one comes from an outside source. I'm being paid to ask this question, so don't hurt me. Rihanna wants to know, what does the grind mean to you?

Who? Rihanna. I know. Who are you asking? Oh, Courtney? Courtney. Yeah. Yeah.

What's the grind mean to you? I mean, I would say I don't typically use that word or phrase very often. but it would just be like putting in the work regardless of what is happening or how it feels or how difficult it is. Yeah, you just keep putting one step in front of the other. Do you have, well, I know races, you have to do that, but do you have training days like that? Yeah, for sure. Where you just got to get through it.

Yeah, some days the miles don't come easy. And it's like, that's fine. let's just do it. Everything's fine. Everything's fine. Isn't that one of your slogans? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's, for me, that's a helpful framing for it. Like, it's okay that today is super hard or that, you know, my one hour run was such a slog. It felt like, you know, six hours and I didn't really enjoy many of the steps of it. It's like, that's fine. That's part of stack and blocks. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you think in some ways that days like that are more important than the good days? Or they both do different things? Yeah, they're probably all important. There's probably more character building or mental building of those hardest days. But it's all adding up to help you reach that next thing you're going for. Yeah. This is like, this is just me being weird.

But do you ever like, I don't know, sometimes I'll have a good day. I'll get in the miles that I want. But I'm like, if I feel too good or like if I, say even if I ran 20 miles and I felt good, do you have, I think I should have done more. Like I want to be happy with effort, but I'm like, I know people do more. I could have done more. I feel good. And so I have a hard time being happy sometimes with the work I put in. Do you ever have that feeling?

So what I'm hearing is after this. Oh, no. This is a psychology talk. We're going to go do Piscca again. No. No, but yeah, do you ever like overthink? I don't know. I try not to.

I mean, I don't have a coach. I don't have a plan. So there's nothing that's telling me that I did less than I was supposed to. You know, like there's, I have no measure to say you failed today that you didn't do the workout you were supposed to do. So it's just all by feel and figuring it out and trying to. keep my body happy so it will continue to let me do these things. Yeah. So, yeah, I think I just try not to ruminate at the end of the day, like, should I have done

something different? It's like, that was today. Right. No day makes or breaks a week, a month, you know, like it was a small, small piece of information, you know, that now tomorrow we try again. Right. in whatever way that is. So I don't get too caught up on it.

Well, good for you. That's very healthy. I'm not that way. No. Yeah, I don't know. Man, I feel like, yeah, when I have a, like these three days have been good because I felt like I don't think I could do really more.

I feel not exhausted, but like feel like that was a good effort. Yeah. And it's easy to go to bed at night knowing yeah, I put in some good work. But yeah, it's just like you check, or I don't.

I mean, I do. I chase that feeling a lot. I want to know that I put in good work that day. And some days, I don't know, it's weird. You'd think that, oh, that was a good day. It felt great. Why would that be a negative? Because it's like, I want it to hurt more.

But that's just me being me, I guess. It's like that satisfying feeling of, like when your quad's hurt. or your calves hurt or you just creak a little more than usual. Yeah. That's like a, yeah, it tells you you did work and that feels good. If I come down the stairs and it's like normally I'm holding on both sides like, yeah.

But if I come like, boop, boop, bo, bo, I'm like, this is stupid. Why do I feel so good this morning? I don't know. That's probably not the, I don't know how to, I don't know. I don't know. Stupid. Okay, what next. Got two left.

Okay. You're doing great, by the way. Thank you. Oh, you're doing great. You're doing great. Am I doing great? No. Oh, okay.

Awful. Some people say it's easier to learn when you fail. And I made the mistake of saying this on Kam and I's last podcast because his opinion is he doesn't want to have to fail to learn. What is your opinion on learning with successes and learning with failures? My best way to learn anything has always been by doing it and messing up a bunch of times trying to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah, like I can't be told how it's supposed to be done or I have to try it. And usually trying it leads to not really knowing what to do for the first few times.

Like, give an example. a bunch. Well, like this sport, ultra running, I mean, my first 100, I knew it would hurt. I knew it was hard. I knew all of these things. And then it got hard and it hurt. And then I failed. I quit at 100. And it was like, that was the only way I was going to learn what it would actually take for me to get to a finish line. Yeah. I get that. I just don't want to have to fail. Because it's like people have said that all the time about hunting. And they say, yeah, well, it's, you know, it's only 10% success. So the chances are you're going to fail. And I'm just like, I know, but I still want to kill. I can still learn lessons along the way. But yeah, it's, I know nothing hurts worse than failing.

So maybe that's, maybe that makes the lesson that much more impactful, which, you know, is kind of what you're saying. And I totally get that. I just still want to win and learn. Not win. Like I never win races. I'm not talking about anything. I'm not really good at anything.

But I could win in a hunt, you know, theoretically with filling the tag. But yeah, anyway. Okay. Good answer. Gritzy. Another great answer. Last, this is the last one.

Whoa, whoa. This better be a like hard hint. all about her. This is a hard-hitting one. You're going to like this one. Okay. Let's do it. So we have previously sat down and had an interview with Dr.

Huberman, who talked about the anterior mid-singulate cortex and how that grows in individuals that do things that they don't want to. Now, you have a quote that says, your best bet is to barrel forward. I like going into those dark moments and learning from them. You don't get to summon those whenever you want. you're doing something really difficult, and that's how you grow your capacity to endure. So how much do you value doing things that you don't want to? I know Cam said it seems like every day you just want to get out of bed and go running,

but what kind of value do you place on doing the things that maybe at first you don't want to? We talked a little bit about all of this today. We talked about everything today. I mean, we had 23 hours of running time. That's right. Plus all the food time. Yeah. And the non-running time.

So I could answer this for her. Do it. I'm not. Just kidding. I'm out of here. Yeah. Well, she would say I'm the best that ever has done this. So I never feel like anything but success.

Is that right? It's a wrap. No. What was the question again? That was long. Basically, just how much value or emphasis she puts on, you know, doing the things that you don't want to do. Yeah. So I keep it really in ultra running.

Like when you say doing the things I don't want to do, like I don't see like folding the laundry in the same bucket as like pushing into the pain cave during an ultra. So like I keep it all in that pain cave ultra running sphere for me right now as like the way I try to endure and like suffer longer and all of those pieces. And that's part of the curiosity. It like circles back to the start of our conversation where like I don't think we know what's possible because every time I go in my pain cave, which is the same cave every time I'm. I'm still able to chisel more away at it. And what will happen if I keep on going back there? Like, is there an end of the cave, you know? Or is there a moment where I'll just refuse to go back in because it's too much and, like, I've gone in too many times?

I don't know. Yeah. And that's part of the curiosity is like, well, I know that by going into that cave, I'm making my capacity to, push through these hardest moments better. I can sit in it longer. I can, you know, be uncomfortable longer than when I got into this sport. So if I keep on going back there, what will happen? Yeah, so like when you talk about people that follow, you know all this, but like your pain cave.

So that's when you're in a race and things start to hurt. I mean, we're covering conceivably hundreds of miles on your feet in the mountains. So you think, people would think that don't know this, like, why would that hurt? You know, because I thought you're supposed to like running, you know. So this pain cave, what is it? Is it fatigue? Is it, you know, your feet getting beat up? What, like, what would be the pain part of getting in the pain cave?

What happens? Yeah, I think it's a lot of different things that it can be or be caused by, and it can happen at any time. Like, I've entered the pain cave in mile two of a hundred mile race, you know, where it's just like none of the systems are going together. Nothing is, you know, working and making it feel easy. And you're already having to like mentally dig in just to keep on taking steps forward. I'll enter the pain cave then and just start like in my brain doing the work because if I'm in the pain cave doing the work in there it feels like what I've found out is your body will follow suit what do you mean doing the work like you mean just just one step at a time yeah just keep moving

yeah but my focus will be not on the physical action anymore and it's just on like chiseling away in this pain cave in my mind of like just keep, keep doing that and your body follows suit. But like keep not, but not running. Well, that's happening. Well, but like you say, keep doing the worst. So are you like thinking of a chisel and a hammer? Yeah.

Oh, you are. Yeah. Act. Like making the cave bigger. Yeah. And it's the act of. Yeah. And that, like, are you thinking of the hammer hitting the chisel?

Yeah. And it's very visual. And, you know, I can see the pile of rubble building below it. And like, I know the cave now because I've been in it so many times. So like it's a familiar place that I'm trying to expand upon. And that might happen, you know, at mile two because whatever, my systems just aren't going and not working together. And so it's feeling really impossible to digest that I have to run 98 more miles to get to a finish line. Or it might happen at mile 50 or, you know, and it might be a more physical.

physical thing where it's like, I don't know if I can take another step forward. So instead of thinking of that, I'm going to focus on my mind. And my mind will help my legs keep going. Oh, yeah, because I was like, this whole time, I've been confused. I thought it was like, you know how people say, well, it's going to be a suffer fest. It's like kind of a term, like a suffer fest. You're going to suffer here. I didn't know when you talk about pain cave, I thought that was just like, oh, we're just in the pain. That's just whatever. We're not going to shy away from it.

This is part of the deal. I didn't know you were actually thinking about your cave. So like, can you see your, the cave? Is the cave with us right now? No. Cave, cave. No, but when, like, does it have a look? Yeah.

And I'm a very visual person. So it's, yeah, just crafted in my mind over the, the years and it has a look. What does it look like? Well, like a cave. I know, but have you fixed it up? No. No.

No furniture or anything? No, I didn't make it comfortable, which could definitely be a move. Is there lights? Just the one on my, like, helmet. Oh, because you're in the mind. Because I'm safe. Yeah. Okay.

Okay, so, but is there rooms or is it just big? Yeah, no, I think of it as. it's a really long tunnel, but then there have been some like side missions. So there's some little rooms off to the sides of like... Where did those come in? Like different sorts. I feel like I'm just sounding crazier and crazier. No, nobody's even going to listen to this.

You're in a safe place. This is a circle of trust. I don't feel safe here. No, so like on these side missions, is that like a race in particular made you make this? Yeah, it'd be like a different sort of scenario where it felt like it wasn't just the normal suffering where I was chisling. Like give me an example of that. Maybe like a format, like a Big's backyard or something, you know, where it's like. like an unknown end and a loop course.

And it's not about getting to a finish line. It's about staying in it and not giving up on believing I could do another lap. Like that feels like a different thing than chiseling my way towards a very specific finish line, like a 100 mile race. Yeah, that's interesting because. I mean, but it's it, the hammer and the chisel staying the same. Yeah. Does that ever change?

No. So if you're going to a race, that's probably the biggest room, right? Yeah, just like of getting towards a finish line. But like now we're doing the four mile loop every hour and that's a side room, right? Yeah, I feel like just little caverns have been made in different areas. Is there another one besides, or? I can't say anymore here. No, I like it because I'd never heard.

I just thought this was just like some term. Well, that's where it stemmed from is people call it the pain cave or people call it the struggle bus or the suffer fest or the hurt locker. Right. And for some reason, I really latched on to the idea of this pain cave as like the thing I was experiencing. Maybe because of the visual, maybe I just. liked the term the most, but it was the one that like resonated with what I was experiencing.

And then initially it was, you know, this cave exists, but you should avoid it at all costs. Yeah. So like, I've heard you talk about that. Don't get there. Don't see it. If you do see it, survive it. Stay outside of it if you can, you know, like just kind of like linger by the doorway. But then it was realizing that that story was just something.

made up in my brain and why not make it a productive story instead so like okay there's this cave why don't we do work while we're at the cave and you know maybe that will help us find out something about what's possible yeah yeah i'm yeah i'm totally fascinated by this because i just thought it was this thing and you would say like yeah i want to make the the cave bigger because whatever and it's like i'm not going to shy away from and the sooner i can get to it the best better. I didn't know as like this whole actual visual piece. So the reason why I'm saying this is like maybe this could help other people. Because I wonder if like this visualization of actually putting into work, doing work,

making this, having a purpose in your vision is taking away from the suffering of your body pounding. So it's just like getting you to focus on something else. I wonder if that's the key to it. Yeah. And it's making the suffering. has purpose. It's not that that's maybe that's what I meant. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's not just because most people are suffering and the purpose is I just got to get through this. I just want to fit I've always wanted to be a hundred mile or I want to buckle. Yeah. That's my purpose. But sometimes that purpose can seem so far out there, especially if you start a mile two. Yeah. You, that purpose can be,

you have a lot of distractions and things that can deviate you from that path. But It was just the work that feels different to me. That seems, yeah. For some reason, I've missed that part of your story or this strategy forever. That part of the crazy? No, I mean, can't be crazy if it works for you. You know, it's just like, but I did hear, and I don't remember what podcast it was that you used to, I don't know if you used to or I can't remember how it was, but.

instead of avoiding it, you want to get there sooner. And whoever you were talking to, I can't remember who it was, but it was like pretty surprised by that, that you weren't normally you turn to fight off pain as much as you can instead of like, okay, finally we're here. And that felt like it was, I just didn't know it was this work part. That was so crucial to it. But that's awesome.

Yeah, and like if I'm signing up for these races, it's because I want to go, I want to see what's possible. So it means I want to go into the pain cave and do more work. Because if I do more work on this cave that I've already done all of this work in, it's making it so that it's more ready for the next time. So each time it's like making the capacity for that suffering bigger, making my ability hopefully to like sit in that suffering longer.

So it all adds on to each other. And that purpose always helps. If it's like the work I'm doing right now in this cave is like not that fun and this is really hard and, you know, I'm like suffering greatly, I know that that work is going to still be there ready for me the next time. So if I can like, we chopped away 50 miles out of our 100 miles, you know? Yeah. And it was like that makes the next time. even better because we've already done this this thing to prepare ourselves. I see.

I mean, yeah, that does that make sense to me. But yeah, no, it does. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. But, okay, so now I'm like, when did that start after your first 100 mile attempt? Yeah. So, but you were good at endurance events. forever like with the cross country with the Nordic skiing i know you won a national championship

at uh Colorado um you had you know state champion so what would you do then like how did you navigate pain at that time i had a really really good ski coach in high school who um tried to teach us about uh i guess like pushing past that feeling of like i'm going as hard to as I can, he would always tell us, no, there's always another gear. Like, when you reach that feeling where you think there's no more, there's always one more gear, you can always crank the knob one more, you know? And he didn't necessarily call it the pain cape, but he tried to just, like, instill that belief in us. He believed in us. He, you know, would teach us that this is a thing that exists. And then we just had to, like, try it and see. And so,

trying that out in cross-country skiing with him, it was like proven true. Like, oh, he's right. You know, there always is more gas in the tank than you think. Like when your body's throwing up the flags, that that's it. It's usually a couple steps earlier than is actually it. Yeah. So that was like really important groundwork to be late. And I don't know how he got that through to us because we were, you know,

teenage girls and it feels scary when you are pushing as hard as you can and you think that's it and someone tells you no there's more you know it's hard to i don't know how he did it but we believed him because he believed in us i think and then we were willing to just like try that out you trusted what he's saying yeah yeah so it's did you do you remember did you push your absolute hardest back then Yeah. So you, you did gave everything you had. Yeah, I would always try to give everything. And, yeah, I think was establishing, I didn't have the name for it,

but it was definitely like a beginning establishment of like the same pain cave concept that I'm using now. Yeah, that's, you know, because people trick themselves and they say, yeah, I gave, I gave it all, did my best, gave all, but did they? You know, it's like, it's hard to, it's hard to know because you said you didn't even know that there was another level. And I think most people fall in that category where they might convince themselves they did their best, but it's like, you had more. How do you, how do you teach people that? I don't know.

Yeah, that's what's, that's the magic. Yeah. I mean, he must have done a good job. He got through to you enough to where you bought into something. Yeah. It's like, okay, I do have more. But that is, that's rare right there. Yeah.

And then to develop that skill and translate it to ultra running, then the pain cave specifically, yeah. That's awesome. I mean, you can cut out that whole part or I just sound crazy. Just edit that out, guys. You can't, how do you question success? You know, it's just so much different than, And because I'm like such a fan of icons and, you know, obviously big fan of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant.

But those were always like it's against somebody. They wanted to beat everyone. They wanted to prove their dominance. You know, like, and that's like your approach is so much different because you're always like, no, I just want to want everybody to do good and, you know, lift each other up. And it's just like so different than like these ultimate, what I think about competitors in their field, your approach is so much different, but it's just personal, right?

I mean, I don't know. I mean, am I putting words in your mouth? No, it's very much like, I just, I want to see what's possible. I'm curious. But just for you? Yeah. And like hopefully to then help the people

in general, like the sport and any, you know, the generations that follow after maybe get springboarded a little bit higher, a little bit sooner. Right. Because of, yeah, maybe what I can contribute while I'm in it now. Yeah. Oh. Well, okay, so on those lines, like when you were coming up, I don't know if I asked us before, I can't remember. But did you have, like, was there women you looked up to in ultra running that kind of inspired you?

Or I don't know, how much did you follow the history of the sport or have you? Yeah, not a ton. I mean, when I was first getting into the sport, would read ultra running magazine and try and soak up everything I could about what's happening out there, how it happens. like how are these people covering these courses? I remember reading about like Hard Rock 100, for example, of this huge mountain course in Colorado. And I think I read the article and I was like, these people are insane and I could never be the person

who finishes that race course because it's just got so much climbing. It's at altitude. There's always weather involved. And I was like, that's not me. Like I could never be that, you know? But I wasn't like, I'm not a big history buff on the sport

and definitely not an expert in that area. But just tried to like soak up everything I could about all of it. Yeah, because now you're like immersed in that storyline because it's like people love to compare generations. You know what I mean? So now you're like, it's all about how, who compares to core? or how whatever, but yeah, it's just, it's pretty interesting.

I, you know, your approach, I've seen different approaches. Like you said you could never do it, which that's kind of how I thought. But then I see people come in and they're just like, they're way more confident than I was like, man, I wish I could be that confident because they're like, they said they're going to go crush this 100 mile race. And I'm just like, do they really? because I sure hell didn't feel that when I first started. But it's just interesting to hear.

And we talked about this forever a day, but it's how your brain works and just interprets things. It can change from the weather to who you're around to what happened that day. But it's just like, you know, how do we control our thoughts? And then I talk to you also about willpower. How do you measure willpower? How do you like when you're hurt,

as bad as you've heard before and everybody hurts at this point, how does somebody push harder than another person? How does that, you know, the mid-singular cortex or whatever he talked about, but that Huberman has mentioned, that could be one part of it, but how do you push when everything's telling you to stop? That's what's fascinating. I know there's no like easy answer to it. Yeah.

But yeah, I don't know. It's a cool sport to just like dabble in all of that. and see, but then also be out in like the most beautiful places in the world. It's a great place to, you know, I don't want to ever learn lessons from failing, but it's a great place to learn. Yeah. I was going to see, I saw Huberman sent me a text. So let me see if it had to do with you.

Oh boy. We're not accepting any more questions from the peanut gallery. Well, I was just going to ask you, do you think there's any other sport that can get you to that point in the pain cave like ultra running does or do you think it's completely unique in that way i don't know that i don't know i uh yeah i don't know i know it's unique and i don't know every sport but it's unique in that there's no crowd like specifically when you're usually when you're suffering the most what we love about it is the mountains and being you know kind of immersed in that but it's kind of like immersed in it individually.

So like NFL, NBA, there's crowds. So if you're pushing hard, you're getting acknowledged. You know what I mean? You're diving on the floor after a loose ball. You know, you're getting a floor burn. People are like, good effort. Ultra doesn't have, you know, until you do the end, I don't know when that happens.

Yeah. So it might be more individually driven. than some of these other sports. I'm sure I'm forgetting sports that are like this, but I mean, I think about two is, I think endurance sports are unique in that way because I think about the Tour de France riders, you know, it's not what happened on that day.

It's the preparator is how hard did they train, you know, who trained put in the most work. So it's, you know, that time on the bike is probably, I mean, it has to be, brutal. Yeah. And you can convince yourself that you put in enough work, kind of like I was saying, but there's always somebody out.

And there's that saying like, there's somebody out there right now outworking you. And when you meet them, you'll find out who's better because they just did more work. And I think that I think about that a lot because I'm like, I want to, you know, you can get tricked into comparing yourself. but I always I like knowing that or tricking myself that I'm outworking everyone and it gives you a little confidence but I think that's a big part of I think the tour maybe like what what you know and what you do is if you're not putting in the work it's going to be hard to have that confidence is what it feels like to me I don't know it's a tough one though you don't want to but don't give her that That option. This one's for you. No.

This is star of the show. You know, Cam and I have talked previously on the podcast about how lucky we feel to have found our purpose. And you talked about, you know, being able to contribute by exploring that pain cave. Do you feel like that's your purpose? I don't, I hope I can have multiple purposes in life, but that for sure feels like. like a purpose of right now, like this chapter, this, yeah. Is like sharing your thoughts on the pain cave or pain in general? Or is that what the question is?

Like her, how she navigates pain? Like to teach other people? Yeah, yeah. Kind of if she's found that, you know, her value to give back to others is being almost that lab rat of exploring the pain cave and seeing how far humans can go. Yeah. Yeah, I think I don't know if anyone will need that information ever, but I think it's like a little broader than that where it's more,

like we're capable of more than we think, you know, and whatever the thing is that you want to go after, just start and just go for it and see. and that it can be really, really difficult, but you can enjoy the process of that. Like joy and suffering don't have to be separated. You're not doing one or the other. You could be doing both in that pursuit of this thing you're going after.

Yeah. So it's like, yeah, it's just form of sacrifice maybe to, I mean, for the big picture, sure you got big goals, hard goals. It's going to be, there's going to be some pain and sacrifice along the way, and that's just part of the deal. It's kind of like that when I hear you talk about the pain cave, that's what I hear until I've got the more details today.

But that, yeah, there's going to be pain. You know, you talked about that first one where you dropped at 16. I know you've heard you talk about this before, where you sat in the chair and then you kept seeing everybody else coming in who were struggling, just like you had been struggling. And they did whatever they had. get some fuel, hydration, whatever, and then kept going, and you were still there. Yeah.

And so that, to me, that was like a huge lesson that was like, well, they're hurting, just like I'm hurting. They just didn't quit. Yeah. And then that, to me, that was like a huge lesson for you. And if I'm hearing it right, but led to where you're at now. Yeah, 100%. That was the best classroom for figuring out that, one, I wanted to be a person.

who made it to a finish line of a 100 mile race for no reason but just to prove to myself that I could be a person who did it. But then also like, well, they physically look like they're in shambles just like I was, but there must be a mental piece of it where they're just forging ahead even though they feel terrible. Like there's a whole mental side to this sport and to like going after that thing. So I, yeah, pushed over the first domino for me of tying the mental side to the physical side by watching these people keep going when I had stopped. Right. Yeah. Now, I know I've, everybody loves to bring that up and talk. I don't know.

Because I told, I told these guys of, I hate when people ask her the same question. I want her to stop the interview and then I ask the same, talk about the same stupid thing as stopping it. mile 60, which everybody's heard a million times. But so sorry about that. Yeah, I mean, do you have any more? Oh, yeah. I mean, God, I'm, I'm so thankful for you and for these three days and like that you agreed to come out here because I know I've said it, but it's like you've impacted so many lives just by and large. But like in this community to see those people, I mean, seeing you on the trail is going to change people's lives. It's like they're going to have this story forever.

And so it means so much that you agreed to come out here and then also stay longer and, you know, make me suffer for a few more days after that. But I'm like so, so thankful. It's like, as I said, I'm such a big Courtney fan. And to be able to share miles from you, it feels like it's like a make a wish. and I'm like this kid that got his dream come true. But thank you very much. No, thank you.

Your friendship means a lot to me. And your success is, I love seeing it. And it's so well earned. You put in so much work. And yeah, I'm just very appreciative for you. Oh, thank you.