Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 115 - Max Jolliffe

Episode Date: February 3, 2025

Max, Jolliffe, runner, surfer, and ex-skater. Max ran a 2:36 in the California International Marathon, finished second in his first 100-mile mountain race, the SAMO 100, and won the inaugural Saddles 50 trail race right after a 700-day run streak.  Max and Cam cover Max’s racing career, how he got into running, getting over addiction, strategies in running marathons and more! Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow Max: https://www.instagram.com/woah_max  Thank you to our sponsors: Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off GoHunt: https://gohunt.com/ use code CAM when you sign up for $50 towards the gear shop + 10% off the GoHunt store Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping Sig Sauer: https://www.sigsauer.com/ use code CAM10 for 10% off optics Timestamps: 00:00:00 Documentaries on Max 00:04:26 An Inspirational Call that Pushed Max to the Finish 00:08:28 Suffering Brings You Closer to God 00:10:23 Imposter Syndrome & Pushing the Limits 00:11:27 Teamwork & Strategy - Moab 240 Race 00:13:26 Sleep & the Willpower to Push Past the Pain 00:19:28 Training for the Moab 240 00:21:29 Racing to Train 00:23:28 TDS Marathon (Sur les Traces des Ducs de Savoie) 00:25:58 Recovering from Addiction 00:30:51 Ad Break (MUD\WTR & Ketone-IQ) 00:33:15 How Max Got into Running 00:36:36 Max’s First Race 00:38:34 Max’s First 100 Mile Race 00:43:41 Training for Cocodona 00:46:57 Vertical Goals 00:51:06 Cocodona & Running in the Heat 00:53:05 Max’s Diet for Races 00:54:40 Protecting Your Feet During Races & Race Shoes 01:01:50 Max’s Inspirations in Running & Future Goals 01:06:29 Max’s Sponsors & Creating Content 01:09:27 Working a Full Time Job While Racing 01:13:15 Q - Fu#$, Marry, Kill - Running, Skateboarding, Surfing 01:14:49 Q - Will You Bring the Hair Back? 01:15:17 Q - Balancing Empathy with Competitors with a Drive to Win? 01:17:26 Max’s Outlook on Hunting 01:21:30 Q - Your Mindset While Being Chased & Being in the Lead? 01:25:41 Q - The Value of a Teammate That’s Always Pushing You? 01:28:15 Sally McRae 01:29:39 Q - The Thought Process of Deciding to Run Alone? 01:36:09 Q - What Do You Want Your Legacy to be? 01:37:09 Exploring Eugene

Every step I take, I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel, gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I'm moving so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with giving my blood so I am relentless. All right? We're live. Keep hammering collective with Max.

I don't want to shoot this up. But I say in my head I see Joliffe. That's exactly correct. Is that right? People mess it up all the time, but you nailed it. Yeah. I mean, you got there's a lot of Fs and eyes. and stuff.

Too many AFs, too many E. There's an E at the end that you probably don't really need. But yeah. Well, man, let's see. Let me think about how I found out about, well, I found out about you out about you from Tyler. Yeah. And during Moab, I believe.

Yeah. And this is, you know, I'll just like, like cut to the chase. So you sent me the link to your film, King of Moab. And I knew about the race because of that call that day during the race. But the film, dude. It's amazing. It's like I'm addicted to ultra and not because I'm like this world class or whatever. I just love the storytelling of a good film. You know, Billy Yang has done a good job with it.

He's amazing. Yeah. Courtney's had some really good ones on her. The source was one that stands out to me. But your film that I just watched the other night was I don't want to disrespect any other film, but dude, it is powerful. Thank you, man. Thank you. That seriously means the world to me. And we spent a lot of time. I mean, the film's been in the worst for almost a year now. And yeah, me and Tyler, shout out to Tyler Walter. I mean,

just an incredible, incredible filmmaker. I know you've done some work with him in the past. And yeah, he just like knocked it out of the park. And luckily, I was able to pull off something amazing to really, really make the story complete. Oh, is, I just like that, you know, we, go through these long races and there's so many ups and downs we've got the we got the turn on the warm filter i know the disco lights going it's so good um yeah you'll oh did you fix it already it seems a little different well we all for the for the listeners we just had a little i don't know what a little light issue we're back we're partying yeah no that's good though um Yeah, we just need some cigarette smoke in here.

It's like an interrogation. But no, that race, I mean, yeah, that film, you know, I'd seen the Beach Kid, I think, is another one on you. And that's when I watched that. And I think afterwards, because I'm like, dang, this guy, I like this guy's persona or just how he portrays himself. And then I watched that one. And then I heard or learn more about your story, you know, overcoming addiction. and all the stuff, but in that film, you're just so vulnerable and real,

that's what stood out to me. Yeah, thank you. And you just explained the struggles you're going through and how it felt. Right. What to you, I know you did a premiere back in your hometown, what stands out to you on that experience? Well, I thought the coolest thing was,

and a lot of my friends and family, they know I'm out there running these 100-mile races, 240-mile races, and, you know, They know it's like this crazy endeavor that I'm undertaking and it's gnarly and it was it was cool for me to show them like kind of firsthand like what actually goes into all this and for them to see this struggle. I think it just like gave everyone a perspective on just how hard these things really are and how beautiful the landscapes are and like maybe gave some of my friends an understanding of like why I'm doing this. Yeah. Yeah. Did they, so they got it? The people at the premiere? Yeah, I mean, after the film ended, I was standing there up front by the stage,

and it was, for 45 minutes, I was just shaking hands. Yeah. Yeah, the response from everyone was just incredible. Yeah, just mind-blowing. Yeah, I think I told you, but, I mean, got choked up watching it. Yeah, yeah. It was like, I can't think of another word, but powerful. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. and I seriously could not have done it without you.

Like in the film, there's a moment where I get a video message from Kim. Oh, my God. You were killing it out there. Moab 240. What an epic event. I cannot believe you are right there. You're right there so close to first place. And I know it's tough.

I know the pain you're feeling now is probably seems unbearable. Dude. But you were on the home stretch. All your hopes and dreams are right there in front of you. Go get them. Now's a chance to create that legacy you've always dreamed of. Let's make a story. You know, that's why we do events and put ourselves through things like this

is because we want a story to tell what your story going to be. It's going to be that you reeled in first place and won the MOWAP 240. I hope so. Keep hammered, brother. Damn. And it was seriously, and I've told you this, It was the catalyst that led me to this crazy come from behind victory. Like I was in almost an impossible situation to come back from.

And I got this message from you. And I don't know if we can play it on the podcast or if we have a copy of it or something. But it was just the most inspirational message that I could have even gotten at that point. And that, you know, set me on fire. And I ended up winning the race. And really, like, my life changed because of you. I'm like forever in debt to you. Dude, that's so nice.

To set the stage, it was, you were, I think, 40 miles, or wait, let me think. No, 40 miles to go, 15 miles back. Is that what it was? So at the mile 200, the Geyser Pass AIDS Station, I was 15 miles behind the leader. Right. Which with 40 miles to go is... Not looking good. No, no.

And I was in rough shape. That section that I had come through, getting into that aid station was by far the most difficult and yeah it was just like a miracle that I was able to to get my legs back and start running good again that late in a race yeah definitely there's a couple things that stand out to me I mean you struggling so much it and I know how it feels not maybe not exactly because everybody's different but I heard you guys were doing one mile an hour yeah something like for yeah and you know as well as I do if you're doing a 240 mile race right one mile an hour or not going to work.

No, no. Especially if the goal is to win. Right, right. Yeah. And I was, I was right there. And the, yeah, it was just, we had encountered this section where it seemed like everything was going wrong. Like, we got lost.

We ran out of water. My watch died. His phone died. Just everything was going awry. And, yeah, there was, it was like, I remember being three or four miles out from that aid station. And I kept going, like, how far is the aid station? How far is the aid station?

And we were just four miles for like an hour. And I was like, oh my God, this is so brutal. Yeah. Well, the part that really got me, I mean, of course, seeing somebody struggle and fight with all they have. But when you said the line that stands out to me was God gave me my legs back. Yeah. That, I mean, multiple times during that race.

It was from mile 140 on each crude aid station I'd come into, It was my legs were so shot. I would look down at my quads and my muscle fibers and my quads were just like fluttering. Right. And yeah, somehow I would just lay down for a quick 40 minute nap and I'd get up and I'd be like, oh, my legs actually feel like maybe I can make it to the next state station. It was just like, okay, let's just get to the next spot. Let's just get to the next spot.

And yeah, after that last stop, it was like my legs had fully come back. And I ran some of my fastest splits of the entire race after that. Guys are past eight station at Mile 200. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, it's a, I don't know, what powerful, incredible story. You know, when you talking about that, the pain, I was, I had this massage therapist, and we were talking about it last night.

And it's like when you, when people feel it seems like, and you can tell me your perspective, when they feel closest to God is when you're suffering so much. because in regular life, people aren't reaching out to God for help. It's like it's all good, whatever. But when you really... When you're desperate. When you're desperate, when you have nowhere else to turn, that's when people start talking to God.

And that's when you talk about suffering. And that's when people, that's when you feel his presence. And is that what... Yeah, I felt the power. And it was like, I had, I was just sitting there thinking like, I don't know how I'm going to be able to even finish this race. And I pride myself on being someone who's like never going to quit, never going to give up. Like I never DNF to race.

And like each one of those aid stations, I was like really questioning my spirit. Like am I going to even be able to finish this thing, you know? And yeah, it was like just a power greater than myself that came over me. And yeah, I have a hard time even taking credit for it. You know, like the win, the race. Like it was not. only a team effort. Like I had all my friends. I had my family there. My girlfriend McKenzie. Like, it's really this weirdly this team sport. Like I had a group of people that were almost like

carrying me along. And I'm just like the vehicle. And yeah, it was, it was mind blowing. Just the whole experience. And that being my first 200 mile race. And yeah, it was, I had no idea that I was even going to come close to winning. And yeah, just a miracle. Oh, it was, it was, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, amazing. Do you ever, I like that attitude where you're never going to quit. This is who you are. I know I've been in like long things like that or really tough situations. And I start talking to myself going, I'm a fake.

I'm not even, I pretend like I'm tough because I want to quit. And it's just like you start, I don't even know how to explain it. It's like kind of an imposter syndrome. Yeah, you're a fraud. Yeah. Yeah, like people are going to find out that I'm not actually that good of an athlete. You know, I'm just like really good at suffering or being able to manage and deal with pain. But yeah, no, I totally get that.

Yeah, because you start to question yourself and like everything you stand for. But that's what that's what's so special about it too is because where else are you ever going to be faced with that reality, you know? And yeah, I know. But when we push through and we overcome, then, okay, well, maybe we're back on track. That's the magic. Yeah. That's the magic. But yeah, I want to talk about, yeah, your girlfriend was a key part of that.

I loved how you guys, you're so, we had so much strategy. Right. That's where I learned a lot from that. Yeah, yeah. And that was kind of my, I knew I was kind of an underdog. Like, I've only been a professional ultra runner for a year. And every race, I'm just like trying to learn and like really learning things on the fly. Like with Moab, I didn't know how.

I was going to handle the sleep deprivation, like dealing with keeping my nutrition up for 69 hours straight, dealing with hydration, like my gear, my, God, I learned so much about like my feet and taking care of my feet and chafing and stuff. Like those were like some of the biggest issues that like really, really affected me. So going into this thing, I was just like kind of winging it.

And I did everything that I could to prepare just all the factors that I knew I had control of. Like I really nailed my hydration. I really nailed my nutrition. The sleep actually worked out pretty well for me as well. And I just tried to be the most prepared person going into that race. And I don't know if anyone trained more than me in that race. Yeah, I was put, I mean, for an entire year from when I entered the lottery,

I was like my entire year is being dedicated to mow up 240. And I ran probably 100 plus mile weeks for, I mean, aside from maybe a couple down weeks after races, but it was like 100, 120, 130 mile weeks for the entire year. Did you? Yeah. Okay. Well, I didn't realize that. People are always pretty fixated on that mileage and how much you get.

And, you know, there's been like, there's different approaches. That's what's crazy about, especially these long ones. And Courtney and I talked about, we don't know if you can really nail the 200 plus. But like the 100 plus, if you look at David Roach, you know, we talked about about this. Courtney and I did about how. people are kind of dialing in the 100 mile distance. Right. It's one day.

It's no sleep issues. You're just like you get, as you said, the hydration, the nutrition, the training, and you kind of predict what's going to happen. The 200, so many different factors. So many outside factors. I was curious. How much did you sleep? So I slept a total of, I think, an hour and a half.

So three, 40-minute naps at three of the crude aid stations. And then one or two, just five minute dirt naps, which was kind of a crazy experience, like laying down. Like the story of Courtney, when she lays down for one minute and wakes up and he's like, how long was I asleep? And they're like one minute. She's like, all right, let's go. Like it felt like that. Like I had gone out for five minutes. And I was like, you let me sleep for too long. He's like, no, it's five minutes. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. It's and that's how that works. Right. I don't know if it's like sustainable for life. Yeah. It's definitely not healthy.

Yeah. No. It does work in those moments. Me and Taylor did that too. I think maybe a big foot, but yeah, same thing. Just like thought I slept forever and wasted all this time. It's like now a minute. It's like a time warp. It's so crazy. So, okay, so what did you say? Three, 40 minutes.

How much do you say it? An hour? About an hour and a half total, I think. Yeah. But like there's a part of me where I think the sleep is really crucial for your mind. Like I know people get really delirious and have hallucinations and stuff. And if you're experiencing something like that, like you probably should. should go unconscious for a short amount of time

to reset your brain. But I didn't have any, I felt like I could have stayed awake the whole time that the stops and the sleep was, I felt more restorative for my body in a weird way, like for my legs. And maybe I could have just sat there for 40 minutes and my legs would have maybe horizontal, just sat there and my legs would have come back.

But yeah, I really didn't feel like I didn't have any hallucinations. I was very coherent and clear minded the entire race. So yeah, I still don't even know. what the proper sleep formula is. Yeah, that's kind of the point. And I've never hallucinated either. I think I slept for like a couple hours during that race. I didn't finish as fast as I was like in 78 or 9 or something like that.

So a little slower, but still, yeah, it's weird just how everybody's body is, I don't know, that's what's fascinating about the multi-day races. Right. And does nutrition and hydration play a factor in how your mind is working for the Yeah, there's so many, it's a giant math equation. What would this do? Like, what would a ketone IQ do? Oh, I was drinking these every stop.

Were you? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, I need to have one right now. Let's do it. Let's do it. Here, cheers.

Oh, yeah. There we go. Thanks, Michael Brandt, Jeffrey Wu. Shout out. No, these, when I first started taking these, I was like, God, those taste terrible. Now I'm used to it. The peach ones are good.

Yeah, now I kind of like it. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so that is interesting. I've always wanted like a Huberman or a Dr. Galpin to study like the sleep deprivation, just pushing like what's, because I've always, I've talked to Huberman so many times about willpower. I was fascinated about why somebody can push and why other people can't. The power of the mind.

Yeah. How do you, how can somebody push like a coordinator like you or like you or like when anybody else would quit. I have no idea. And like maybe that's just comes down to the character of the person and the life that they've lived and all of their experiences leading up to like that moment where you're there having to make a decision like do I continue on or do I give up? Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know. I just, I'm fascinated by why certain people can just not quit and just keep. and just keep, and you know it hurts. You can't even really explain the pain, or I can't. But it's just like, all you want to do is stop. Yeah.

But you can't. You can't. Yeah. And I don't know, maybe it's the competition. Maybe it's just, yeah, like I said, life experience. Like I've dealt with a lot of struggles in life. And I know that no matter what situation I'm in during a race, I've been in worse spots and I've overcome more difficult things like getting sober like that was the hardest thing I ever did in my

entire life and uh no matter how much pain I'm in uh I just know that I can get through it no matter what you know as long as I just don't give up just keep moving forward just keep moving forward even if it's just walking one mile an hour like you can keep moving like and just problem solving along the way like it's like it's just a big math equation like are you low on nutrition are you low on hydration do you need more electrolytes do you need this or that it's like anything can change how you're feeling in a race like that and you're always going to feel different maybe 30 minutes an hour later even so uh yeah it's it's crazy yeah it's it's uh but that's why we love it i guess i guess that's why we love it i think it's the challenge it's doing hard things i'm trying

to think why i love it so it's like i know i love the mountains yeah i know i love cool people I know I love doing big adventures. So I guess that's enough. That's more than enough, yeah. Any one of those things would be enough. Right. And then you want to see what you're capable of, right? So that's why we do it.

Testing yourself. Yeah. So you got this distance. How long is it going to take you to cover that distance? Right. With these conditions. Where are they going to draw the line for these races? Like I know Candace is doing the 300 starting this year.

Like where does it end? I don't know. I know. I know Courtney and I always talked about wanting to to do 500. That's badass. And she, you know, that's a Colorado trail essentially. So she tried that for the FKT.

But yeah, that's, yeah, that sleep definitely plays a part on that. But yeah, I'm just, it's pretty, pretty exciting to think about. Okay, so we got the training, the training you were putting in tons of miles. Yeah. I'm curious about like how, how is your body holding up during like the 120, 130 mile week? And would you do all your runs at one time or split them up? Yeah. So my, I was really just focused on volume.

And I kind of structured my year with races leading up to Moab. So I ran this race called Sean O'Brien. It was 100K. And then in April, I ran this 100-mile, called Leona Divide. And then I ran TDS at UTMB a couple months after that. So I had kind of structured my year with like increasing the difficulty of these races and just tried to be super, super consistent with my training. It was like after I'd finish a race,

it was like I'd barely take any time off. And I'm on a run streak, so I still have to run every day, which like kind of sucks, especially after a hundred mile or a 200 mile or having to limp a mile the next day. But I really just wanted to focus on keeping my training super consistent throughout the year. So it was like I didn't let up off the gas. It was like as soon as I finished one race, It was straight into training for the next one. And I think all of that fitness compounded leading into Moab and just put me in like a really, really good spot. And yeah, my body handled the mileage fine.

Like I spent a long time like building out like my run streak's like over three years. So I've spent a really long time building my mileage really, really slowly. And yeah, I could have I could have done it better. Like I could have done more specific workouts and like the whole. David Roche training theory that we're seeing on his YouTube now, it's like so different than what I was doing for a race like Moab. And maybe it does need to be different for a race like Moab, but maybe being more specific with my training could have been good.

I don't know. I'm still trying to figure this whole thing out. I never had a coach. I'm just like kind of winging it. Well, you're doing a great job. Thank you. How critical do you think that the races are in between that? Because as we know, we push harder than a race.

You know, so you could get the same mileage in training by yourself, but how important is that the race experience? Yeah, I think the race forces you to push yourself and do a really hard effort. And like those, the races leading up can be like good like benchmarks for seeing where your fitness is at. And one of my, one of my, I mean, I'd say he's like my mentor in ultra running, Jesse Haynes. I mean, dude's a legend. And he, he does the same thing. like he'll plan his year and race like he races to train you know like he does races in training for other races so uh yeah i thought that was like really cool and super helpful and i think it was

super beneficial to me too just with my year this year yeah yeah so it's like most of time they'll they'll have an a race i remember excuse me but i remember way back my first ultra i believe do you know who scott jerich is yeah yeah i met scott at uh teare this year super nice guy he's incredible person. Well, yeah, I know, and just a legend. So this 2005, and it was just 50K up here in Corvallis called McDonald Forest. And I ran it and I don't know, maybe it was, I think it was a first or second time ultra, but he ran slow and I was like, man, this is a, you know, legend.

He's won Western seven times or whatever it was. But that was just, it wasn't, he just wanted time on the feet. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like you're not going for PR every time. Right, and you got aid stations set up along the way. So it's logistically an easy way to do a huge day, that 50-mile day and like not have to worry about, yeah, like getting your fuel and everything.

Yeah, so why would he care about winning McDonald-Forest? No, yeah. When his bigger goal is to win Western. So I didn't understand that A race, this and that, I thought every time you go out is to win, right? Right, right. And, but yeah, so that's interesting. Yeah, because I watched your film, I think,

on, was it, you said TDS? TDS, yeah. Yeah, that's a UTMB race. It's a race at UTMB. Yeah, it's a hundred-mileer. It's like, I think people call it the evil step sister of the UT&B main race. It's like known for being more technical. It's a little bit shorter, but it was like a really, a really, really hard race. And what's cool about that race is it starts at midnight. So you're kind of doing a almost a multi-day. It's like you're running through two nights. So I was like, that's like kind of a perfect little taste of what I'm going to experience at Moab. So, yeah, it was just each race I had throughout the year was just harder and harder. And TDS was like really, really hard.

Yeah, I bet. I mean, I've heard about the mountains over there. Yeah, I've never been there. You've got to come out. Yeah, it's so cool. Yeah, because I asked Courtney when we were running this weekend about poles and different things like that over there. Like everybody, a lot of people, almost everybody uses poles because it's so steep or whatever.

and she's like that's where I think it's kind of a skill to develop is how to use those poles well and a lot of those guys are like skiers in the winter so they're super used to using poles yeah because it's but she was saying how steep it's like I go do you try to run those sales she's like no impossible yeah some of those climbs are impossible to run yeah yeah it how much climb was on that one I think it was like 30 31,000 in 94 miles yeah so brutal yeah the same elevation of Moab, but in 94 miles. Oh, that is brutal. Wow.

But so, so beautiful, so fun. It was, yeah, incredible. I know when you're, I think it must be Chamonie, where are you looking at the mountain right there and it looks like just a solid wall? So, yeah, TDS, it actually starts on the other side of the mountain in, I'm going to botch the name,

Cormier, Cormaier. Yeah. And it's a big, it's a big route around the mountain. The UTNB main event is just a loop from Chamonie around the mountain. back to Chamonies. So still a super, super incredible, like scenic. I mean, some of the landscapes I was seeing out there were like so incredible. You're running through alpine, like just sheer cliffs at some points and running through cow pastures and these big open grassy meadows.

And yeah, it was just, it was so cool. I'd never even been to that area before. It's like been incredible for me to like travel the world and see all these like amazing places like because of running. Yeah. It's a gift. When you were, I mean, you mentioned your addiction in getting sober. When you were at those moments, that, an experience like that running in Europe in the most beautiful country in the world from when you were at your lowest point probably seemed like. I never could have imagined. How amazing is life? It's incredible.

Yeah. It's like when you're at your lowest, just like you probably thought, I'm never getting out of here. There's no way out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me about that. Yeah, I mean, I come to make a long story short, I come from a long line of alcoholics, drug addicts.

It runs in my family. My mom's been sober for 30 plus years before I was even born. So I should probably know this, but maybe like 34, 35 years. My dad is like currently struggling alcoholic and addict. And yeah, my sister and my grandparents, like my uncle, every. everybody and it's it really is a family disease and yeah after high school I just really had no direction in life I was I like to say I was going nowhere fast and yeah I had I had gotten hit by a car when I was 14 years old and they sent me home with a prescription for oxycotton and that was

kind of like my first little taste of addiction and it wasn't until later in high school where I really like started getting deep into it and after high school things got really dark, it got really bad. It felt like every single day was the worst day in my life. And yeah, I don't know, I feel like I really just got lucky and the stars had a line for me. And I had an opportunity to like finally just get out of the situation that I was in and go to jail for a couple months. And that was like, I remember thinking like, this might be my only chance to like, finally quit because for the longest time I was like dude I I can't keep doing this like I want to quit

I want to stop I'm I'm done I'm this is this is the last day I'm I'm really getting sober this time I'm really going to do it and it was just like never could hang on for four or five hour an hour you know it was just the the worst situation mentally to have to fight every single day and I finally did get sober and that was on April 6th 2012 and I've been sober ever since and my life has just continually gotten better. Like getting sober was like the foundation of, I don't know, my new life. And I wouldn't have anything. I'd be dead if I wasn't sober.

Yeah. Yeah, especially now with the fentanyl, you know, what is doing with people. I've lost so many friends, man. It's such a bummer. It's so sad. Yeah, that is awful. Because, you know, there's people who everybody struggles with the different things, but they take this pill and they're not trying to kill themselves.

Well, they might think they're taking something totally different, you know? Right. Yeah, I mean, it's just tragic. Yeah. It's what they're doing to that now and, you know, trying to make money. Everybody's, you know, they're out there hustling, doing their selling their pills or whatever, but it's costing good people their lives.

And it's just like, man, so lucky that you got out when you did. Yeah. So it was jail that got you sober. Yeah. And then I went right into 12-step programs, got super involved, got really plugged in with a really amazing community and had like for the first time ever in my life like solid like male role models and people who cared about me and like true genuine friends. And I just like held on for dear life. And it wasn't until I was sober for I have maybe four or five years. years where I even found like I didn't even run when I was younger I didn't run in high school I didn't

run I didn't go to college so I wouldn't run in college but yeah it wasn't until I was like 25 26 years old when I actually like found running and started running seriously and I feel like that came at like such a such a perfect time in my life where I really I was on the right track but I didn't really have a lot of motivation to push myself or make goals or progress and it was like when I found running it was like this new hard thing that I could make goals, and set goals and achieve those goals. And they were attainable goals. And I felt like it was the first time

where I really started to win in my life. And yeah, I was like total game changer for me. And I feel like once, I mean, this is gonna sound crazy, but once I started like succeeding and progressing and running, it like bled into all these other aspects of my life. And I really like, everything, kind of started to come together you know who got you started and running was it just you he's like i want to go on and run and yeah so it's so it's kind of a funny story i'll try to make it short because

i've explained it uh on a couple different podcasts but i i was got back into skating i'd quit skateboarding when i was doing my doing my thing and yeah in addiction like you're struggling yeah struggling and um the the company that i worked at at had a skate park in one of the warehouses and i would skate in every day and I kept getting injured. I broke one of my ankles and then six months later I broke my other ankle so I was just out for quite a few months. I couldn't do anything. I was just sitting on the couch. I was on a knee scooter crutches and I had a roommate at the time who was like super into going. I mean, he was a bodybuilder. So he was super into going to go into the gym and I came to one day. I was like, dude, I just feel like shit, man. I'm like I need to like do something.

And he was like, start coming to the gym with me. Like I'll show you what to do. Like I'll teach you how to And yeah, I just got a gym membership and started going to the gym. And like, I remember one thing he said to me. He was like, just pay the 30 bucks a month. Like an investment in your body and your health is the greatest investment that you'll make in your life. And I just started going with him. And I wasn't, I mean, I do enjoy lifting quite a bit now, but I wasn't trying to be like him. You know, like he's benching 315.

Yeah, yeah, super jacked. And I was like going. going and getting comfortable. And then I eventually just found myself like going to the cardio machine area and doing the stair climber or doing the elliptical machine. Like I couldn't even run on the treadmill

at that point. And eventually I did start running on the treadmill and I was like, ooh, I really like this. Like this makes me feel good. Productive. Yeah, it's hard. It's challenging. And a couple months of doing that,

I'd be going to the gym and just going there to run on the treadmill for 30, 45 minutes. And I'm like, why do I have this gym membership if I'm just going to run on the treadmill? I can just run outside. So started running outside and yeah, I remember it being like super hard, you know. Running on a treadmill is like totally different than running on the road if you've never done it.

And you don't have to propel yourself. Right, right. You just kind of go up. Yeah. And I remember doing a three or four mile run. I was like, shit, man, I can barely do this, you know? And I was like, just wanted to push myself. I was, every time I ran, I wanted to either run a little bit further or a little bit faster.

And that was kind of the beginning of like this obsessive. that had developed with me and running. And I think part of that's just like having such an addictive mind. And I get obsessed over things really easily. And I do, I really like to take things to the extreme, you know. So running was just like filled this void in my life and became like a new, healthy obsession outlet for me to, for me to do. And it like seriously changed my life. Yeah.

I like to say like running changed my life and ultra running ruined my life. life you know because uh yeah it's at you know when you're when you're doing uh when you're training and doing 100 200 mile races it's like all consuming and I don't really skate or surf anymore as much as I'd like to but um I'm just so focused and dedicated to like seeing how far I can go with this whole ultra running thing yeah yeah you still you're loving it still yeah I'm in love with it yeah what's uh so what was your first race uh uh uh so I was your first race uh uh so I I had run a couple road marathons. The first marathon I signed up for was in 2019, just my local marathon back home, O.C.

Marathon. Yeah. And I ran that one and ran a couple more marathons after that. And then- Were you doing good in them? What was your goals? Yeah, I mean, like my first- Yeah, my first one, I was like four hours.

Like people say four hours is a good goal. And then I ran a 327. That's good. Yeah, yeah. And it was like every single race that I ran, I kind of had these like conservative expectations and I will always like blow my expectations out of the water and I ran like three or four marathons and then I had a group of friends who were doing this race in Tahoe called Broken Arrow Sky Race. It was a 50K and I was like,

ooh, that'd be kind of cool to like see if I can do it like an ultra. Yeah. You know and signed up for that race and man that was a really hard race. It was like 11,000 feet of vert and a 50K. And yeah, it did really well there and I was like I really like trail running and I just was like, I want, this is all I want to do. And I, I mean, I've ran a couple of road marathons since, but it's just been like 50K, 100K, 100 mile, you know, win a 50 mile, win a 100k, win a 100 mile, win a 200, so it's just. That's nuts, dude. Yeah, just the natural progression. But you have a fast, I mean, like a 230-some marathon, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, fast. Yeah, but compared to who, you know, I mean. Not to Olympians, but. Yeah, yeah.

To me is fast. Yeah. Yeah, it's, yeah, I'm proud of my marathon PR. I think I still probably got one more. In the 20s? One more fast marathon. Maybe sub 2.30. I don't know.

Yeah, I think that would probably be like my ultimate road marathon goal. But yeah, I'm just so obsessed with trail run at like 100 mile plus distance. Like that's really what I want to keep doing. What was so your first 100, how did you do in that one? I got second place. So that was when I first met Jesse Haynes. And this is actually kind of a cool story. In, oh my gosh, I don't want to mess up the year.

I think it was 2023. Satisfy one of my sponsors. They sponsor this aid station at Fane Ranch at Mile 100. And I was just volunteering there, like helping out at the aid station. I was like, oh, this is crazy. I'm going to go to this 250-mile race and see these people. And I was there in the middle of the night when the first probably five or six people were coming through the aid station.

And I remember in my head thinking that these people were going to be, like I had built them up in my head like there were some kind of like superhuman superhero type people. And when I was working at the aid station, I saw them coming through. And they were all kind of in shambles. And I was like, oh, these are just like regular people, you know? Like it was the first time where I kind of could relate. And I was like, oh, maybe this like seemingly impossible thing is maybe. something that I could do, you know? And I think that was in May and then the

hundred-mileer was like in June and I right after coconut I just signed up for this hundred-mile that was close to me and it's called Samo 100-mile put on by K-H races and yeah I showed up to that race with like pretty much a month. I mean I had already been training pretty hard but with just a month of hard training and I showed up and Jesse just smoked me. I mean I think he'd be me about like an hour and a half but It was still like just a really cool experience. And I finished that race in second. I was like, holy shit, like my first 100-miler, I just crushed it, you know.

Yeah. That's impressive. Yeah. And that's, you said that was 11,000 or no, no, which, how hard was that? That was a 50K. I think that one was maybe 20. A lot of climbing, man. Yeah, yeah, a lot of climbing.

It's in the Santa Monica Mountains. So, yeah, it was maybe 21 or 27. I can't quite remember. I don't even think, but legit. Yeah, it's not, I don't even think it's a race anymore. But yeah, it was a really rad fun race. It's on the backbone trail in, in Santa Monica. So, yeah, it was a really, it was a tough first 100-miler.

And I think that's like, I don't know, maybe, I don't know if I do it intentionally, but picking, like, pretty hard races for these first, like, my first 50K was hard. Yeah. My first 100-miler was hard. Moab 240, obviously hard, right? So, yeah, it's, it was. It was just cool. And like I said, I just kept showing up way bigger than I even expected

and just having really good finishes. That's amazing. I mean, you're definitely built for it. And that's what's crazy about it is your life could easily, easily went where you'd never realize this talent you have. Right. You know, I mean, it's the fact that you found it, and whatever led it up to leading you to ultras,

was meant to be, but it could easily not happen. And then there would be no max running ultras. Right. You know what I mean? And then the sport would have lost out. But that's, I think that people listening, I think it's important to know that you don't know what you're capable of. I mean, look at you.

Could it easily never have happened. Yeah. And also, like, I kind of just stumbled on myself being kind of good at run. You know, I didn't know I was good at running. My dad was a marathon runner. or so maybe I kind of knew that I had a knack for this thing or could have been good at it. But it wasn't until I really started pushing myself

and finding some success in running where I was like, oh, I think I am actually good, like pretty good at this thing. And I just, I made a decision like, I'm actually going to lean into this. You know, like this might be the one thing that I'm like really good at, you know? And just took it from there and really, I mean, I'm still trying to figure out what's possible for me

and see what I can do, yeah. Yeah, that's pretty amazing. That little story right there just remind me. Me and my, I used to hunt up here on a mountain bike, and we'd bike in, and it's super steep and all this. And I remember my friend was like, we were going up there, and it would just crush people. People be puking all the time.

For whatever reason, I could just bike. And I remember my buddy, he was like off his bike, pushing it, puking. And he's just like, what, he goes, could you be like, like in the Olympics and I'm like I don't know I mean you know we were I was older at this time but like sometimes there's these little things that you're like maybe maybe this is my thing yeah maybe yeah maybe endurance right and at that time he said that I was just like god maybe I'm okay at this stuff but yeah you never know there's these little moments in in time that you know whatever path you're taking you're there and then you're just like oh wow this is

I never expected this. But, yeah, that, okay, so side story there. But Coca-Donough, were you pacing or crewing Jesse that first year? Did you say he was Coca-Donor? No, no, Jesse wasn't racing. Oh. Yeah, I was just there at the, I wasn't crewing anyone. I was just, I was just a station volunteering.

Oh, got you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was just, I mean, I knew Michael Verstee. He actually came through first place at that time that year. And I know him fairly well. So it was cool seeing him. but I was just hanging out. I was just checking out the race.

Oh, okay. Handed out, casidias, yeah, just chilling at the 8th station, filling up people's water. And, yeah, it was just kind of by chance that I was, like, out there and saw this race. And I was like, whoa, this is sick. Yeah, and so this year you're doing it.

I'm doing it. And you are, too. I know. Yeah, you're going to... Hey, this race is going to be so insane. The lineup is, like, so, so sick. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, Courtney, like, one of many, but, Yeah, I told you earlier, I think the only person who might be a bigger fan of Courtney than me is you. Yeah, I love her. There's an argument to be made that Courtney Dewalter is the greatest female athlete of any sport of all time. Right. Like, she's just so incredible.

I'm, like, such a huge fan. I haven't met her yet, but I'm looking forward to seeing her at Cocodona. You're going to. It's going to be epic. And, you know, Mike McKnight's doing it. Yeah. He's been texting me about heat training because he's going to go down there early. Jesse Haynes is doing it. Is he?

Yeah. Whoa. And he's good too, right? He's a legend. I mean, he won Moab in 20, 20, 23. That's right. That's right. Jeez.

Among, I mean, we could go down the list for, I mean, there's like probably 20 people that are just monsters in that line up. I think that overall record is going down. For sure. I think the entire top 10 might break the course. record really yeah I mean yeah could happen I'm calling it yeah it definitely could happen I mean I'm always just thinking to Courtney it's like who knows what she's capable of yeah so what's your I mean I don't know how close to the vest you hold stuff but what's your training looking like going up to that which are you gonna

ramp it up yeah kind of just same thing that I've been doing just a big volume I I live at I live at sea level so I'm this is low here too yeah I'm We're at a little bit of a disadvantage. So trying to just do more trips, get going up to the mountains that are close. They're not big mountains, but at least it's something, you know, doing some vert training.

After seeing Roche's YouTube video, like, maybe, you know, I might do some more higher intensity stuff. Like, I'm just going to try to be as fit as possible and just cover all my bases and really take care of my body. Like I've been seeing this PT back home. And he's been, Actually, a funny story. So Dr. G, the PT that I go to, Cheeto is always in there all the time.

So I'm crushing shoulders with him. Yeah. I love him. I know he's been on the show. Yeah, he's a legend. So yeah, just taking care of my body, doing everything that I can and applying those things that I learned from Moab that were maybe some issues that affected my race. And just taking those lessons and doing things a little bit different. So along with the mileage, do you have vert goals?

a week yeah i i kind of want to hit i think i i think i hit like half a million feet avert last year so i thought it would be cool i think the million foot avert in a year is like a really sick benchmark um and i got this like stair climber machine in my garage so i've been hitting stair stair climber sessions a lot but uh yeah i think doing a million feet avert in the year could be really really sick and i got other races i think than kogodona i'm doing the mammoth 200, which is another mountain race. So that's in September. Okay.

Yeah, that's the route that Sally put up near Mammoth Lakes, which is going to be the first year of that 200-mile race. It's part of Mammoth Trail Fest. So I got that one. We'll see if it runs. We just had a bunch of fires in L.A., so I'm not sure if AC100 is happening this year. I mean, I'm hoping so. But yeah, that's a pretty mountainous race.

So yeah, there will be a lot of vert in my future this year. Yeah, definitely. I know like there's a guy here, Ben Blankenship, you know who that is. He on Spencer's over there. I know he was when he was getting ready because he's just getting into ultras now, but he was always like, or his goal was 10,000 feet a day, which is nuts. That's crazy. That's a lot of, that's a lot of.

Every day for how long? I can't remember how many days he was doing that. I mean, I know, actually, I can't speak to it. But 10,000 feet a day for even just a few days is a lot. Yeah, yeah. He's doing it longer than that. But yeah, so I'm always like interested in hearing there's this, there's this girl who just did the spike camp thing. And this is going to sound nuts.

I think part of it was skiing too. So just take that with just consider that. But she did over two million feet of gain in a year. Damn. I mean, there's people out there that that's all they do. Yeah, it's insane. But she, and she was crushing Piscuit. There's no, I mean, no surprise. Right. Up and down, up and down, up and down. But I don't know because Taylor, his goal was always, my brother, was always 500,000 feet. And I always thought that that is insane. 500,000 feet. I thought that was nuts. A million feet is nuts. But anytime you have these like benchmarks, you know there's somebody who's. Right. And the, I mean, I'm. I mean, I'm sure there's a record for most vertical feet of gain. Probably Killian does like three million.

Yeah, yeah. Who knows? Like, and the record's probably getting broken every single year. So, yeah, who knows what even the limit of that. And that's a whole other, like, it's not technically ultra racing, but it's still like ultra adjacent, you know, like putting up crazy mileage throughout a year or crazy vert throughout a year. So, yeah, that's kind of a whole other cool aspect of the ultra running world.

Yeah. just seeing what people can do in a month or a year, you know. Yeah, because if it, and that's what's exciting about it. Because when I think about like miles, I know Goggins, Gagins did 7,000 miles in a year, which, or over 7,000, which is like 20 miles a day for the whole year, which is, but if you look at all those different things, so it's like, that's the magic, though,

is finding the combination that works for you, for whatever endeavor you're doing and kind of, I guess, highlights your strengths, right? So for some people, maybe it's avert, maybe it's a mileage,

maybe it's whatever, but if you look at, or maybe like Roach, it's a speed, but you look at all those and you take all these little things from all these athletes of killing in the Goggins,

the Roach, the Courtney, and then it's like, okay, so what works for you? Right. What gets you to your highest level? That's what nobody can say. Yeah. You can say like,

well, this works for this guy and here's what he did and that might not do anything for you. You got to find out for yourself. Yeah, and you just gotta do it. Right, and that's what, I mean, we have all these people doing these incredible things. It doesn't mean anything for me.

I love talking, like hearing what you're doing because I can consider it. Right. But I think that for these long ones, how do you measure mental toughness? I have no idea. There's no way to quantify it. And then it's volume.

Right. And that's all I think about. Yeah. I guess heat maybe, I don't know. Yeah, which I'm, Going into Cocodona, I'm like really, I feel like being able to handle the heat is like kind of my greatest strength.

Moab was really, really hot this year. I know there were people like Andy Glaze got heat stroke really, really bad on either the first or second day. Yeah. So it was really, it was a tough year. And a lot, I mean, I live in Southern California, so it's, I mean, we live in a desert, so it's pretty hot.

And yeah, it's all summer long, I'm training in the heat. So, and I always kind of do really well. hot races. So I think that might be kind of my secret weapon. Yeah, I don't, I don't have super salty sweat and I don't sweat a whole lot. So I think I retain water pretty well, which might be really beneficial for, yeah, for hot races. So yeah, I really love hot, flat, fast ultras. Like, that's, yeah, that's my, I like, I like anything that's really, really hard. But I think my greatest strength is probably in like hot desert conditions.

That's where maybe then this race is like Taylor made for you because it is, there's a lot of running. I mean, there's road. So was Moab. Yeah, it's very runable. Yeah. So if you can make up time on the flat, man. And you're good in the heat.

Right. Because I think in the first part of Kokodona is, you know, that first 50K, they say that's what, you know, that require you to take four liters water type thing. is the hardest part at the beginning anyway. If you can survive that and then get to that wherever you can run. Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking forward to it.

I'm super excited. Yeah. I'm pumped to see what you do. God. I'm old. I'm old. So with your nutrition, like you were laying all that out, it seems like the focus nowadays or lately has been on the high carb, high calorie.

What do you look at for that for you? Yeah. I'm kind of just trying to do what other people do. And I was trying to get as much fuel as I could. So I had, I think I had something around, I had planned for 80 grams of carbohydrates per hour, which is kind of a lot, especially for a multi-day race like that.

And I think I consumed almost all of my nutrition that I had planned for, plus extra just solid food. But yeah, I was eating a lot of gels, a lot of high-carb mix in my, in my fluids, tons of electrolytes. Like I was really meticulous about planning my nutrition.

Yeah. How much salt were you taking? Do you remember? Or was it just in your drink? I did a sweat test and I'm like 900 milligrams sodium loss per liter. So I was trying to hit just right at that number. Yeah. And it worked out well.

Yeah. Yeah. What I remember from, and you talked about lessons you learned, but from Moab is like taking those bandages off your blisters. Yeah. That seemed like a rough one. Big mistake. Yeah. So now you leave your feet bandaged up. I'm going to do something totally different for my feet for the next one. Yeah. I pre-taped, which I don't think I should have done and probably should have stuck with toe socks the entire time. And I'm actually curious what you think about this. So friction of your socks on your skin is what causes blisters, right?

Would it be better to always lubricate the sock between the sock and the skin? Or do you want the sock to stick to the skin so it doesn't move? What I've been doing is I just, I coat my toes in vassaline and then to put the sock on. But that only lasts for so long, right? Yeah, but like the last races I've done, hundreds, even like this hundred, me and Courtney just I've had one blister. I've done that and I've still gotten blisters. And maybe that's because it was a hot race.

So I was drenching myself in water the entire race. So I was pooling in my shoes and my socks. So maybe it just got washed, rinsed away. But yeah, I'm like still learning. I'm always just trying to learn like what works best. And I got a couple of, I got a race next weekend. I'm running Black Canyon 60K. So I'll be testing it.

I mean, it's pretty short. Yeah, you can't simulate what you're going to experience in a hundred. or 200 miles unless you do it. So it's like I kind of just got to pick something and test it out and hopefully it works. I don't know. Yeah. And I think feet are again, we talk about so unique because I've tried the toe socks before. It made my shoes too tight.

Maybe it was that extra fabric in there, but maybe I needed to go up a size or whatever. But Courtney, she uses. And I don't see her feet ever being torn up. Yeah. I think part of it, and I have like my, my pinky toes kind of, Oh my God, mine too. Mine are so bad. Yeah, they, my pinky toes were, I thought I was going to lose my right pinky toe during

I was like, legit, this hurts so bad. I think my toe might actually fall off. Let's just cut it off now. Yeah, yeah, which probably would have been better. But, yeah, my feet are kind of the thing that I struggle most with in races. And I've had some success. Every once in a while, I'll run 100K and I'll be like, oh, my blisters aren't even really that bad. I didn't lose too many toenails and then I'll run a road marathon and lose five of my toenails.

I'm like, what's the deal here? Do you have a shoe sponsor? So I'm sponsored by Satisfy Running. They make apparel and they're releasing their first shoe, I think, in July. So I do have a shoe sponsor. The shoe is just not out yet. Yeah. But I've been wear testing some prototypes.

it's it's they're good okay because shoes are dude it's not easy to make a good shoe no you know you like i remember under armor came out with the first shoe and i wanted to wear them so bad they were like wearing a two by four in your foot they were awful the worst shoe ever like plastic and then you're forced to wear them yeah then i'm like sponsored by them but they can't you know they now they make great shoes but i'm just saying that making shoes shit is tough yeah for performance right you know i mean you can get shoes that look cool but uh performance is i think you know i think you're I think breaking into the shoe space is really hard, but I've been trying out a bunch of different shoes, just road shoes, trail shoes over the last year.

And it's kind of hard to find a bad shoe nowadays, at least if it's coming from a Nike, Hoka, Adidas, whoever, new balance. Like everyone kind of seems to make. Don't forget Speedland. And Speedland. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

Yeah. Yeah, I feel like nowadays it's almost hard to find a bad shoe. A lot of brands make, a lot of really good shoes. out there. Where I struggle is not struggle, but I'm always obsessed with weight. So I'm always looking to like cut things off. Speed lines, they've got to trim down good,

but I'm always like, God, if I could run in a road shoe, that's this many ounces lighter. Right, take a road shoe and like maybe re-sull it with a vibrant. Something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because they, I thought about that. I tested out this road shoe wherever it is and there,

and it just doesn't have any, grip on the bottom. Yeah, I notice a lot of Adidas shoes, the road shoes, they're just like that flat. I think it's continental rubber. Maybe, yeah, I think it's called continent. I'm probably, probably miss speaking. But yeah, it's just, there's no,

there's no treads or traction, it's just flat grip. So if you can have that shoe with a little bit of traction. But yeah, speed line. I think they, you know, one thing, you talked about your feet and sweating and pouring water. So do you put holes through the bottom of your shoe? No, I heard one time that you do that. Yeah.

But I don't really sweat too much. So that's, I don't know. I saw a treadmill video of you. Remember that with the socks? Yeah. So the stair climber, yeah, I sweat more on that thing than any, but there's no. Stationary bike too.

If you do that, you're like. Also, that was in the middle of the summer. My garage was probably 90 degrees. There's no fan. There's no ventilation. So it's just like giant. sweat box but yeah I uh I sweat a ton on that thing but usually when I'm running outside or in

races like I don't really unless I'm dumping a ton of water on myself I don't really ever get fluid pooling up in my in my shoes I'm not not a super heavy sweater yeah yeah that's uh that I mean that's why you're probably good at the heat um but yeah you see like a lot of those races or some of the races I'll put you through a river right at the beginning oh yeah and you know it's softening up that skin and you're just like oh god this is brutal that quite Literally that happened this year at Sean O'Brien, this 100K that I ran. Mile two, you have to do this river crossing and then it was a hot race. My feet were wet for 10 hours.

And I, dude, I had these blisters that started on my toe, went underneath my toenail, wrapped around. Like it was so brutal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was nasty. So what I do to try it and I'm not good, but if I run from here to the Piscay, then I'll

just go, if it's in the summers, go in the river. Yeah. Just get my feet all wet and then run. So train with wet feet, toughen up your feet. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I don't wear socks. Makes sense to me. Yeah, that's crazy.

You don't wear socks. I forgot that. Just for training. Okay, okay. Not for racing. Yeah, no, but it's just in my head, I'm like making my feet tougher. That makes sense to me? I don't know if it works.

Yeah, yeah. But it's like we have all these little weird whatever. I live really close to the beach. So every once in a while, I'll just do bare. foot runs on the sand and I feel like that's like important to I mean toughen up the skin on your toes and your feet but also just the uneven terrain I feel like it makes your feet stronger and uh I've never really dealt with uh like any foot injuries or plant yeah and I think maybe that that has something to do with it but uh yeah I like to cycle a bunch of different shoes I don't really yeah I'm

I kind of have that same even though I don't uh run without socks but uh I like to I like to toughen up my feet in different ways by just like mixing it up a lot with shoes or terrain or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, whatever you're doing, keep doing it. You're kicking ass. Thank you. So tell me about like, I think, you know, there's some stars in the sport that we know of. The guys who I pay attention to, we mentioned Roach a few times now, but Hayden Hawks, I like him. Of course, Walmsley is legend. and Mike McKnight. He's won all the 200s in one year. Yeah, killing. Like, who's been like your inspiration and running? Oh, man, dude, it's like, to be honest with you, it's people like you. Like you, Gaggins, yeah, like Jim, all those guys that you just named.

Yeah, Michael Verstay. It's just like people that I've met along the way, people that inspire Jesse Haynes. Like, man, that dude, I look up to that dude so much. And he's like, Tommy saw Dylan Bowman. And like these guys like, I don't know, it's just people that I've met along the way kind of inspire me the most. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's, well, now you're, I mean, you have like everything.

You got the look. You got the story. You got the performance. How exciting is that? And it's like, do you see yourself as, I mean, where do you see yourself going? I don't know. To be honest with you, it feels weird. Like going back to the imposter syndrome, I'm just waiting for all these people to find out.

I'm like not a good athlete, you know. But yeah, it's been, it's been kind of a tricky thing to navigate. I mean, I'm sure you deal with it, you know, seeing people all the time that know you and you don't really know who they are. And I never wanted to, I never planned on like blowing up in the running space. I just wanted to do some hard races and push myself. Yeah. And everything else is just social media is, I mean, the success there has just kind of been a bonus.

And yeah, I just, I just want to keep doing hard things, telling my story, documenting races. And hopefully if I inspire people along the way, that's like, that's really cool. Well, yeah. I think you are. I mean, you inspire me. I mean, your film with Tyler. And I always say Tyler with an OR, which I said, did you know you spell your name wrong? Yeah, yeah.

Tyler, come on. But that film, so what's a film, like, do you have more films in the works or plans? What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I think it's fun, you know, making these films, documenting these races. And I plan on just bringing filmers along with me. I don't know if it will be a big production like King of Moab. That's, you know, it took a lot of planning and just a lot of time to make that. I mean, it's still not done yet.

we're still working on it trying to get it out as soon as possible. But yeah, just leaning more into like putting out YouTube videos, just making more content. Right. Yeah. People can't get enough. Can't get enough. And I like,

I wish that more people would just put forth a little bit of effort to put content out there. Like there's so many pro athletes that I wish I could see what their training looks like, what their story is. And it's like just buy a camera, have your girlfriend or your wife start filming, hire an editor to just put some put a YouTube video together and put it out there like I selfishly want to see that so um yeah I'm just gonna and people keep asking me to do that more and uh this next year I'm gonna try to put out

a lot more content on my YouTube and just yeah try to do better with that yeah it's a that is a good goal I mean you know Courtney talked about we filmed like for three days and I said you you're ready to do a podcast and she's like podcast don't you think we've you know aren't people going to get I'm like I mean her especially and I'm like People can't get enough of you. Her especially. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean. She doesn't put anything out, really. No, she's so mysterious. And maybe that adds to her, her lore, you know? Yeah, I think so. But all I know is, yeah, people, you can't, nowadays, people can't get enough. Yeah. If they care about somebody or they're interested in somebody's story, you can't give them enough.

Right. They want to, they want to peek in the window. And then if you let them, they'll want to come in the house and hang out. And it's tough and it's a sacrifice and trying to, make a documentary while you're trying to train for the biggest race of your life and running the biggest race of your life. It's just like a whole other and trying to juggle a full-time job and like put out content. Like it is a lot. But I think in the end, if you can do it, it's worth it. And people will really respond well if you just put stuff out there. I mean, it could be anything. Just Instagram videos,

TikToks, YouTube just make, just get content out. Like every we just want we want the content. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then so how does that, your sponsorship relationships, how are you navigating that? Because with content, that's eyeballs. With eyeballs, that's money for your sponsor. That's what everybody wants. Right.

So how are you dealing with, so now you're like this rising star coming up, kicking ass. How are you dealing with sponsors and things like that? I've gotten lucky to be to find some brands that have been really, really great to work with. But yeah, it's been tricky. You know, I'm like, I don't have an agent. I don't know what my value is. It's hard to even quantify what I'm worth.

And, yeah, the sponsors, they really do help enable you to travel and do these races. And it's like, it's tough because, like, you need the resources to go. do all these amazing things. It's expensive. Yeah, it is expensive. The races are expensive. I mean, MoA, I think the registration for Moab this year broke $2,000 just to run it. So yeah, and like bringing a crew out and getting hotels and getting everyone fed and gas.

And it all does add up. So yeah, but at the same time, like, you really don't need any sponsors to go run a race and make a film. Like you just need to bring someone with a camera. and just be willing to document it. So yeah, it's been tricky. It's been challenging, yeah, and I'm learning some hard lessons along the way, yeah. But you know, you don't need it,

but if you're sacrificing, if you're going through the pain and you deserve to be compensated, that's how I look at it. It's just like you're getting eyeballs on these brands. And the brands are doing good, they're allowing you to do these. right this or share these experiences but and the obligations to each brand is different right so satisfy i mean they've been super amazing that you know we we do cool fun stuff but they don't really ask too much of the athletes they kind of just believe in us and want us to wear the product and race and

you know we we do we do what we do and that's been really really awesome and an incredible sponsorship and i just recently uh signed with a camelback and they've they've been really cool too they actually are their headquarters is like right right to cities over from my hometown so uh and i got friends who like work there yeah it's uh old co-workers who work there so it's uh it's been cool they've been awesome uh so i'll be with them uh for for quite a while but yeah it's uh some brands ask uh very little of you and other brands like really uh will use you to their full potential yeah yeah that's a good way to say it um milk you for all all your work.

There you go, yeah. There he goes, squeeze everything they can out of you. Yeah. Did you quit your job? No. Oh, you still got a job. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

No, I wish I could, but I'm, you know, I, I feel like I'm like you, you know, I'm working this job and I do enjoy my job. I love the people that I work with. I make okay money, it's really close to home. I'm still able to get all my training in, so there's no reason, really for me to let well other than my time that i'm spending there but it's uh it's a good gig

maybe maybe at some point i'll be a full-time runner but as of right now i'm still still going to work working doing the nine to five yeah well it's i mean there's nothing wrong with that and that's you know you got to pay the bills yeah it is tough um i just know you know true it's a little bit younger than you, but he transitioned to full-time, whatever he does. God, he's killing it, man. He is killing it. Whatever he does. But yeah, so it's, uh, he's doing a good job. But yeah, it is, it's a hard decision to make right there because, you know, he went to college here, got his degree that's doing a good job working for mountain ops and, you know, doing what, what he's good at. And then like, well, maybe if I went on my own, maybe it could be, may I have more time.

And the other thing, too, that gets complicated is when you have sponsors, you can't, if you're trying to do social media full time and you have sponsors, it kind of limits you to jobs that you might be able to, and brands that you can promote, you know. So, yeah, sometimes if you're trying to go that route, having a bunch of sponsors is actually a disadvantage, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's crazy that there is opportunities out to make good money for sure. Just on social media. Right.

You know. Incredible. Yeah. And just so if you could make good money training more, getting more rest because you're not, that's what. You're kind of talking me into it. I know. Well, I just know what I've just seen what Truitt has done. Yeah. Because if you look at what he's, you know, he's going to get probably 10, I would say at least 10,000 pullups in 24 hours tomorrow. So badass. So badass. But he's like, he goes, I just train all day and then sleep like nine hours a day. He goes, what else? What else would I? be doing. Living the life. This is my job. Yeah. So when you have that talent, right. You have, you're obsessed because without obsession, you're not going to do the work.

Right. People always talk about, well, oh, if all I had to do is train all day, I could do that too. It's like, well, probably not. The must be nicer's. Yeah. You'd probably just watch TV more. Yeah. If you didn't have a job.

So there's, it takes like the certain magic where it all comes together. And if it's somebody like you or like Truitt, who knows what the hell can, right? potential is, you know, you know, to set a world record, that's something nobody's ever done. Yeah. I think you could, if you had all that time and just knowing your mentality, I mean, I have, I have some things in the back of my head that I would love to attempt, but are just impossible to do while working a job, like things that might take 40, 50 months to complete. It's like, how do you, how do you hold on to your job when you're gone?

for two months you know right right yeah it's just not possible there are things that i want to do that if i if i do attempt them i'm just going to need to not have a job and i've i've toyed with the idea of just walking in putting in my two weeks and then hitting the road and doing something something crazy but uh yeah yeah it's just i don't know it's tough yeah i understand that jumping off point the the cliff is just yeah so steep you know i understand it's scary yeah i understand i understand i believe in you Thank you. Peanut Gallery. I task these guys.

I can't remember. I think I said it before the podcast, but I said watch King of My Lab. Okay. And then I want some questions from these dipped shit over here. Okay. You watched the Courtney episode, so we got a similar opening question for you.

Okay. But we can cuss this time. Yeah. Firmary Kill. Okay. Running, skateboarding, surfing. Oh my God. dude.

Not bad. Not bad guys. Okay. Damn. I'd say I'm going to have to kill skateboarding. Oh man. That hurts. Surfing.

Mary running. So you still like surfing for like the weekends. Yeah. I feel like skating once you hit 30 years old, you're just, it's over. You're going to get hurt. Yeah. It's like. that time in your life is done.

But surfing is one of those things where you can surf for, I mean, dudes into their 70s and 80s if you take care of your body. Like surfing is one of those things. And it's like, it's a lot like running. It's a spiritual practice for a lot of people. And people get a lot for. And I mean, I'm sure you could say that for skateboarding.

But I love surfing, man. It was like my first thing that I was obsessed with. And now running is just like kind of got to stick it out with that one. So probably throw the ring on. So Mary running. Yeah, throw the ring on running. This is a weekend fling with surfing. Yeah.

That sounds pretty good. Okay. One of the things that really bummed us out the most in the film is you cut the hair. So are you bringing it back? Oh, yeah. I don't know. It's growing. Yeah.

That bummed you guys out? Yeah. We're like, damn, he cut it. Yeah, I don't even know what I'm doing with my hair. It's just doing its thing. Yeah. If you want me to grow it out, I will. I'd appreciate it.

that. Okay. So towards the end of the race, you had mentioned in the film, when you came across Harry, you know, you checked in on them. Are you guys okay? Do you need anything? So how do you kind of balance that empathy for your competitors with your drive to win? Good question. Yeah, I just have the utmost respect for anyone who's lining up at a 200-mile race. And Harry is like, he's one of the greatest 200-mile runners out there. And it was just an honor, like sharing a bunch of miles with him and going back and forth. Like, he dropped me in the beginning. And then I caught him. And then I led for about 100 miles. And then he got me again. And then he just put the hammer on me. And I was down bad. And then I came back. And when I got to him, I had, I had, I had.

kind of knew that it would you know he was moving really slow and I was making I was closing this gap that he had on me and uh it was a couple miles out from when I actually met him where it that it kind of set in that like holy shit I'm I'm gonna win this race and um I just wanted to be as respectful as possible to him I mean he's such a legend I look up to that guy a bunch so uh yeah I just wanted to make sure and stop and uh know that they were okay before I just like hammered on and just, you know, it was more of respecting than anything. Yeah. How old is he?

I think he's the same age as me. He's like 32, 33. Yeah, yeah. I thought Harry, that sounds like an old name. Yeah. I thought he's like 60. Heraldus. Okay.

He's from another country. Yeah, he's Lithuanian. Yeah. Which is kind of funny because I'm Lithuanian as well. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit.

I think, I think my ancestry test said like 10% or something. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. I mean, he has had a lot of. success and I did like how you called that out and um you know yeah I don't know it's a you got to respect I again I related to hunting when I'm way back deep in the mountains I don't want to see anybody but if I see if I see somebody I'm like you worked hard to get here yeah work their

yeah it's like how do you how to hate on that yeah you know another thing that I wanted to ask you about about hunting as a hunter you see someone with me like me with a with a real tree cap on Is this stolen valor? No. Okay. That's cool. It's cool. I like it.

Hunters are, we want people to be flying the flag, basically. Okay, cool. Reping the camel brand. Yeah, I've, man, that's something that I would love to get into. Like, I just, I think it's so cool. Like the most respect to you guys for going out there and getting your own food and feeding your family and just the respect that you have with nature and the difficulty of getting, you know, getting an animal. It's like, it's really cool. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I wish I had more time and energy. And I got a

couple friends back home who are getting into it. Um, bow hunting too. So yeah, it's, uh, well, we'll have to do a lift run shoot, proper lift front shoot. Yeah. This one was kind of, you know, I had speed land yesterday, than you today, then flying to Trout tomorrow. So I was a little bit tight, but I want to do a lift run shoot with you. I was sweet. I was already thinking about having you done at the bow rack. Let's do it after Kogadena. Yeah, let's do it. Okay. Yeah, that'd be fun. We'll do lift runs shoot or recap on Kocodona and get you shooting a bow. That would be amazing. And I actually, so when I was a kid, my mom was just like obsessed with, she just really

loved Boy Scouts. And I think part of it was she, maybe her childhood, she didn't really get to experience the outdoors as much as maybe she would have liked. So when I was a kid, she was just like, so, like she was the Cub Scout leader. She was like the scout leader. And we, I mean, part of my background growing up, like being on trails a lot and traveling, going to all these national parks and road trip

and every single weekend. And I feel like a lot of that kind of was planted the seeds for like my love for the outdoors and for nature and being on trails, which really is ultra running and adventure. So I don't know where I was going with that. Your mom was a Cub Scout master. Yeah.

So the love for the outdoors. Yeah, for hunting. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, how it ties back to nature and hunting. Right. So, yeah, I just, it's, it's been, you know, a part of me for a long time. And hunting is, it's very intriguing to me, you know. And even like, even like I live by the ocean, so it's super accessible.

But even like spear fishing, like I think that spearfishing is like bow hunting in the water, right? Yeah, I've never done it. That's what they say. Yeah, yeah. I got a bunch of friends who do that too. So, yeah, I'm very intrigued. It's just my time is limited with training and working. and making films and with that job yeah that cheetah's got a bow chito came up and did the list of

yeah yeah he's the man we always we always see him running around town where i was like chito oh yeah honking at him yeah he's also got that he wants to start running ultrass does he yeah i've heard him say on uh he did a marathon yeah he did in new york city marathon yeah and uh i've heard it i've heard him say he wants to he wants to get into ultras when he's done with fighting so chito i know let's get some miles the trail, bro. What camera are we on? Camera 17. Yeah, 17.

It's at the trails, shoot, come on. We did, uh, me, him and Ben ran, how far did we run that day?

13. 13? Yeah. So he, he ran with an Olympian. Yeah. I mean, he's a good runner.

Yeah, he is. Yeah. We had a great day. I just, he's hilarious. Yeah, he's, he's the man.

He is hilarious. He's just comes up with the funniest stuff. And he's, I like the, he's got like, does he have gold on his teeth? He's so sick.

I got, I want gold on my team. Yeah, you should. I got, or like at least a, did your girlfriend have a diamond or something? Yeah, she was somewhere and got some stupid tooth jewelry thing. I'm doing it. She can't take it off now, though. Yeah.

She went to the dentist and she was like, hey, can you take this thing off? And they couldn't get it off. So it's just stuck on there for however long. I'm doing it. I'm on my front teeth, though. Not a full grill. I mean, come on. Don't be stupid, James.

Okay. So Cam and Courtney had kind of talked about, you know, if you're leading and someone's chasing you down, you're running until you disappear. And then, you know, maybe you can walk then, but you're never kind of. You get around the corner so they can't see you walk. Yeah. You know the move is if you're ahead and it's nighttime and you got your headlamp on, you cover the headlamp when you look back. Right. So trying to see where they're at.

If somebody looks back, you know they're fucked. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So you definitely don't want to be the person looking back. Yeah. Yeah. It's a sightache.

But I just kind of wanted to know more of your mindset and how it changes from when you're in the chase and when you're in the lead. Oh, yeah. So in the race, I actually, Harry dropped me. So I was chasing him in the beginning.

And it was like the first 20 miles of the race. So I didn't really care about being in second place. It was, yeah, and I wasn't like trying to catch him like super fast. It was just cruising. But once I took the lead, and I led for 100 miles, it sucks in these races because if you're in second place,

you come into an aid station and you can just ask, hey, how long ago did so-and-so come through? And they're like, oh, 15 minutes or 20 minutes or whatever. But if you're in front, you're like, hey, you can't be like how far behind is this person, you know? So you have no information on who's behind you. But if you're behind, you have all the information on the person in front of you. So it is a lot more stressful and nerve-wracking being. in the front and being chased.

So yeah, at mile 140, I opted to let Harry go in front of me and I was going to chase him. But he just, he took off. So I, you know, I wasn't stressed on him chasing me down. But at least I knew like, hey, he was, he left 15 minutes ago. He left 20 minutes ago. Hey, he left five hours ago. Yeah. Which they didn't even, my crew didn't even tell me how far ahead he was at that point.

I was actually more concerned about the third place. I heard in the film. I was like, how far is third place? Yeah. So that's just kind of the mental space that I was in. Yeah. And then you can get to like, well, top 10's not bad.

Yeah. Top 10's good. When the wheels start coming off. Which is crazy. I think I could have stopped for an entire day and still got top 10. Just took a day off. That's not. Yeah.

Isn't that nuts? Yeah. But yeah. I mean, it's so, those races are so spread out. They are. Yeah. That's what, well, Courtney won by like 10 hours. Right.

Or something, Moab. Yeah. I mean, she's so sick. Yeah. She's so incredible. I've told that story many times where at that time, nobody really knew her, or I didn't. And I always kept checking in like, who's winning, you know, kind of how you said, you know. Oh, that's how you guys met.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's so cool. Yeah. And so I was like. thinking I was going to go out conservative be smart and at which I never am and it's like so I kept checking like who is who where's the leader yeah they're saying and I'm just like she's a day ahead of

you no way yeah what she went some wrong way there's no way so he's that far ahead yeah no she was she was yeah but yeah it is it is like I understand that that mind game and then also you're saying how far ahead are they and then how they look right you know so yeah it is like this a lot of information too. It is. How do they look? What are they acting like? And if they're just like, if you hear that, oh, they came in, you know, whatever, 15 minutes

ahead and they were here for 30 seconds, you're just like, yeah, God. You want somebody who just like was camped out for a while. It could barely get up. Right. If you hear a short one. Yeah. Someone who's running away with a race and is just in first the entire way and just smokes everyone. That's like.

That's rough. Yeah. Unless it's you. That's a, well, yeah, yeah, I definitely wasn't in the lead the whole time. Yeah, I was struggling. But yeah, if someone runs away with a race like that, it's like even more respect to them. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, but that was a good question.

I like that, the race tactics. Yeah. One of the things that kind of impressed me the most in the film was McKenzie. And how, you know, when you were hurting, she kind of seemed like, you know, it was like, well, whatever he wants, but also at the same time, she was like, no, You got to go alone if you want to win this. How valuable is it to have someone in your corner like that who's always pushing you? Yeah, it's super important. Like sometimes, and especially when you're 50, 60 hours into a race,

it's like hard to make decisions for like sound decisions. And just having someone there who can almost kind of think for you, you know, you can dish some of the responsibility onto someone else to know what's best for you in a certain situation. And yeah, she was just amazed, like, just took care of me. Like every point of the way, it was just so on it with all the things they go into running a race. And, yeah, I just really could not have done it without her.

It's, she's been, she's been my crew chief, the best crew chief, just since, since I've been running, yeah. Yeah, no, that's, that she seemed very valuable. And as far as even just the planning, the food, but then also knowing you and staying, on task. She's a personal trainer too. So she's like my trainer. She's like my coach. She's like my nutrition. She coach, but she's kind of everything. So yeah, I'm, I'd be nothing without her for sure. She did like there was one time they were talking about like, you're still like four miles out or whatever. You know, like kind of being real about it. Like God, this is taking forever.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it was, I mean, and I'm so grateful that my friends are, you know, willing to come and my friends and family are willing to come and support me and spend, you know, multiple days out in the desert chasing me. But, yeah, it is really stressful for the cruise, you know. It's like they're just as... It's a big commitment. Yeah, they're just as wrapped up and emotionally invested in the race as me, you know, maybe even more so than me because I'm just moving.

That's the only thing that I'm focused on and they're worried about everything else, you know? Well, and also it's like you're the one getting all the attention, you know? It's like, you know, and they're so critical. The crew is so critical. I do kind of appreciate, you know, Courtney did that film about it's a team sport or something like that. Because, yeah, there's a big commitment. They're going through a lot also, but you're the one who's, you know, the winner. Yeah.

You know, so it's very selfless of them and cool to have people that believe in you like that. And not everybody does. Yeah. It's a, I was going to ask also, you know, I saw. Sally's post and she said something about like your guys' podcast was super powerful or whatever. But tell me what you've, what Sally, what you've gained from Sally, what your friendship with her has been like? What has she taught you?

Yeah. I mean, she's been in the running space for a really long time. So she just has like a lot of knowledge with just being able to navigate, you know, contracts and sponsorships and all like kind of the business side of it. but I'm also just so inspired by her and like what she's doing and running 200 plus mile races and documenting them. Like I'm just kind of following the Sally formula where I'm signing up for really challenging difficult races and trying to document it and tell a story and hopefully relate to people.

Yeah. So I mean, she's just been a big inspiration and just the sweetest, kindest, most genuine person, amazing speaker. Yeah. I mean, she's just an incredible human being. I'm like really, really a big fan of Sally. Yeah, me too. Sally McCrae, everybody.

Go follow her Yellow Runner. Yellow Runner. Yeah. Chew Strong was her book. An amazing book. Her story is unlike any other, but it'll give anybody who struggled in life will be inspired by her story.

Yeah. Yeah. She's the best. Okay, we got two more. Okay. So you've talked a lot about how kind of important it was to have your boys there running with you, the energy in your family, everyone. So at the end of that race, when you made the decision to go alone, what was that mind shift

or the thought process shift going forward? That wasn't my decision. Yeah. So McKenzie had been speaking to Jeff Browning and Jesse Haynes, their two friends. But they were, yeah, Jeff was at the race. So he was kind of helping us out, giving us some beta and telling McKenzie what to do with me. And Jesse was calling the whole time telling her what to do with me. That decision to go alone was, that wasn't my decision.

I just, she told me like, hey, if you want to win this, you have to go alone. And at that point, I was just like, all right, like I had just gotten the message from you. I was fired up. I was like, let's fucking go. And yeah, I just took off. And I didn't really understand why in the moment that was the move. But looking back, it's like if you have a pacer with you, it's almost like you can dish some of the responsibility off on the pacer and it like maybe I wouldn't have dug as deep if I just like had

someone like I'm relying on them to set the pace and then to dig deep for me so it was I don't know it was just a way for me to kind of in the most critical part of the race just go inward and uh yeah just find the power within myself to just go all out and leave everything out there and just push as hard as I could until to finish. Yeah. Yeah. That can also backfire because we talked about Sally. She went by herself, I believe is at Tahoe and she left, decided to not have Billy go with her.

And she said that was a huge mistake. Yeah. So as we talk about this, this is so individual. Right. These experiences and these races and this performance. It's like it worked great for you. Yeah. Didn't work for her in that situation.

Maybe in some other situation. situation would have been opposite. Maybe a paste would have helped you and hurt her. Or maybe I was always going to push that. Maybe the pacer would have just right in there with me like who knows? You never know. Yeah, you never know. You never know. But it all we know is what we saw and how it turned out. But yeah, it's it's tough making those decisions. Yeah. You know I know Taylor's paste me on well on a 200 and I couldn't imagine doing it without him. Oh yeah. You know, just for I remember this one we were 130 miles in, it's raining, middle of the dark, middle of the wilderness, wherever we were

for the Bigfoot 200. And I'm just like, I just remember that moment just looking at him going, how lucky are we? Yeah. 130 miles in in the middle of the night. And this is what we live for. So without having somebody there to like say that to, it just wouldn't feel the same. It just is special. You don't get that validation of like the situation that you're in. Yeah. No, I get that. So sometimes a page. is just because you love them. Right. And you're just like sharing stuff with them.

And you're enjoying the time that you're out there. And that, yeah. And like that was kind of a turning point for the race. In the film I talk about it where I got to the halfway point mile 112 or whatever it was at Shea Mountain. And I didn't have Pacers for that first 100 plus miles. And then once I started picking up my friends, it was like, oh, this is like, this is fun now. You know, I'm with the boys.

Like, we're cruising. We're in the mountains. Like, how great is this? Yeah. It was like as tough of a situation that I was in, it was like as soon as I got someone to just distract me from the suffering, it was like everything kind of turned around, you know, until we got to the next. You know, until the problems arose again.

But yeah, no, having people there with you is so crucial and important. And I don't understand how people can run 200 mile races solo. That's so insane. Yeah, that's nuts. Just drop bags, just raw dog in it. That's nuts. Yeah, insane. Yeah, I know.

In that race, I don't know if they changed the course, but I remember, I think it one, is it once, I don't know, but it's like down in the bottom of something cold as hell, but I slept there for a little while. Monticello Lake. Probably. And then you come up and then it's like a slight downhill for miles and you can run.

Maybe it was like 170, 1, 8, I don't know. It seemed like it was later in the race. I know the course changed. So right around that 170 mile at Road 46, I think the course was different this year. So I think you ran in 2022? No, no, no. He's like, I ran in 2017. Yeah, the course.

The course has changed a bunch of times. But I think the newest course is quite a bit longer than the previous years. And it gets up to higher elevation points. Yeah. I remember like it was cold, slept for a little while, came up, but there was like this slight downhill that was perfect to run. And I ran really good during that time. And Taylor, I ended up, he was. Was it leaving the LaSalle mountains? No, but that is another good drop off. Yeah, that was a nice down. That's where that's where I really turned it on. Because that's the peak of the race, right? That's like 10,000 feet almost. Yeah. Well, I think Shea Mountain is technically the high point. But the LaSalle, the Geyser Passade station is like, right at 10,000 again. So it's like you get up to 10,000 feet two different times. Yeah. That was like, but that's coming home or is that coming home?

Yeah, that's coming home. Yeah. That's a nice feeling. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That hitting that bike path, there's, there's no better feeling than no one. Yeah, I saw that.

And God, that area Moab is just God's country. Man, it's so beautiful. It is. It is. It's so incredible. Yeah. Yeah. There were people like base jumping off the side of the cliff as I'm running down.

There's people driving on the road honking at me. It was just like a surreal experience. It was so cool. Did they have where you were on a pavement? Then you had, this is towards right before the bike path. And then you had to climb way up in like four-wheel drive roads. Yeah. Did they have that still?

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Kind of tough up there. Yeah, it was really early in the morning when I was coming through there. And then it got, it started to get light right, right as I was hitting the bike path. But, yeah, just sunrise right there. It was so cool. Beautiful, beautiful.

You guys have one more? Yeah, one more. So we've talked about Cam's call to you or the video, the video text, I mean. And he asked you, you know, what's your legacy going to be? Obviously talking about the race. When this is all said and done, though, the whole career, what do you want your legacy to be? Tough question. Yeah.

I just want to push myself and I know it's never going to be possible to reach my full potential. But I want to get as close to that as possible. I want to do the hardest races in the world. I want to tell my story. And if that's making films or, you know, doing social media more. Yeah, I just want to tell my story and try to inspire others and do hard things. Yeah, it's pretty much it. It's a good goal.

Yeah. I like that. Yeah. So you guys are good on the questions? Yeah. Well, you know, have you been to Eugene before? No, I came to Beaverton probably 10 years ago. I was working this event at Nike at the at the campus.

So I haven't been up here to Oregon in a really long time. But yeah, that's my first time to Eugene. So here's here's the schedule. We're gonna go to OPA, which is original pancake house. Okay. You like breakfast, right? Hell yeah.

But this one is they got pre-fontaine stuff all over. Oh, sick. We were actually thinking of going to the pre-slaught. The rock? Yeah, I wanna- We can do that. Yeah, I wanna leave my AA chip, my 12-year chip for us. For pre, yeah. Oh, okay, we're going to do that for sure.

Because it's right close to the restaurant. Yeah, okay. It's right on campus, but a lot of pre stuff, you know, pre. We went to Hayward Field this morning. Did you? Check it out. Yeah. Oh, let me think.

Oh, that's what we could do. So, no, shit. Today is Friday? We got to do Piscca. No, we're doing Piscay. Okay, okay. But no, they have, I think we can get in between like 10 and something at Hayward, because it was closed when you guys were there.

Yeah. It was locked up. But there was like this little thing. you can walk through and just kind of get the history of Hayward. We kind of, it's that little doorway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were peeking in there. Okay, well, and there's a little like eight minute video.

It talks about, I think, the men of Hayward. Oh, sick. It's just badass, like the history of track here in Eugene. So we'll get breakfast, we'll do that. We'll preach rock and then we'll go do a summit. Sick. I love that. Yeah, that's a dream.

Yeah, because you know, you know, we talked about it a lot, but pre kind of embodies this, but to give anything less than your best is a sacrifice a gift. Exactly. So all we're trying to do is give our best. But you said something. It's like you said, you don't think you can reach your full potential. There's always more in you.

Yeah. You can never get it. You can never get it. You can never get it. Well, you're going to keep chasing it though. Yeah. Try to reach that limit. Well, dude, I'm, I mean, I'm so pumped you came up here.

No, thank you. It's an honor to sit down and talk to you. Likewise. I love your story. I love your journey. I know it was painful and hard and your life hasn't. been easy. And people look at you right now and they think they're probably like are envious. They don't know the pain you've been through. And they don't know the reason why you are who you

are is because of those challenges. And it's just like knowing what you've been through and being able to talk to you. It's like, I mean, this enriches my life. You enrich my life. Thank you. I appreciate that. That means the world to me. I think people watching this film and learning more about you, you're going do the same for them too and so i hope i just want to say i appreciate you so much can all right thank you keep hammering guys