Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 121 - Branlin Shockey & Caleb Marmolejo

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

Join us for a conversation with Branlin Shockey and Caleb Marmolejo, filmmakers in the outdoor space on a mission to create authentic stories that show the real and raw emotion behind every story. Branlin and Caleb talk about how AI is changing content creation, the power of storytelling, and more. Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow Caleb Marmolejo: https://www.instagram.com/caleb.marmolejo/  Follow Branlin Shockey: https://www.instagram.com/branlinshockey/ Thank you to our sponsors: Ketone IQ: https://www.ketone.com/Cam use code CAM for 30% off your first subscription Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order MUD\WTR: https://mudwtr.com/cam use code CAM for 15% off  MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off Timestamps: 00:00:00 Inspiration from Good Photography 00:03:58 Creating Authentic Content 00:09:17 How AI is Changing Photography 00:14:39 How AI is Changing Film & Replicating Emotion 00:25:31 Tangibles in Creating Good Content 00:27:28 Ad Break (MUD\WTR & Ketone-IQ) 00:29:53 The Value of Documentaries & Podcasts 00:38:00 The Nostalgia of Printed Media 00:44:13 “The Ram” - Upcoming Film Caleb is Editing 00:48:00 Filming Cam’s Hunts 00:49:36 Cam’s Idea of the Ultimate Hunting Film 00:54:20 The First Ingredient for Adventure Documentaries 01:00:10 Filming Cam’s Upcoming Cocodona Race 01:03:15 Why Finding the Limit for Cam is Important 01:08:27 Using Pain to Create Purpose & Beauty (Courtney Dauwalter’s Outlook in Running) 01:15:34 Embracing Challenges in Creating Authenticity 01:19:34 Being Content VS Finding Happiness in Challenges 01:23:07 Andrew Huberman’s Knowledge 01:30:47 Telling Stories Through AI 01:33:25 “Wolfpack”, Branlin’s Characteristics, & Unearthing Cool Stories 01:35:51 Jim Shockey - The Story of How he Couldn’t Read 01:39:02 Outro

Every step I take, I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my fuel. Gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I move it's so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. All right.

This is a Keep Hamering Collective. I'm with Branlon Shockey and Caleb marshmallow. Hey, that's good. That's a common one. What is it? It's a marmalo. Marmaleo. Yeah.

I know I can see it. Yeah. I've never tried to say it until right now. Yeah, you get about halfway through and just like, yeah. Marmaldeo. So I'll just do a little intro. Brown and people know once we were wolves, famous director, producer,

Eva Shaki's brother. There you. Yeah, that's how most people know me. Yeah. And then Caleb takes, I mean, are you mostly still? You do video too, but mostly still? I love still photography. Why?

I grew up reading surf magazines. Like in high school, I wasn't like an outstanding student. I wasn't a terrible student, but like I would just bring surf magazines to class. And I came from the action sports world, which photography is, I mean, like Huberman's guy. Yeah. Blayback. He's, yeah. I mean, I was probably 13 years old staring at his pictures.

Really? Him? Absolutely. Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. So he's a legend. Legend. Really?

And his style still stands today. Like people are still trying to emulate him now. Like what would it be? Like what does he do that you can tell us his work? He has a flash photography style. So imagine there's like a big staircase. And he would set up like multiple flashes and freeze the skater over the stairs. And his black and white portraits are just, you can recognize it from a mile away.

like really cool so yeah i mean that's how i fell in love with photo and i think what i could do with his with filters on his photos like my filters oh yeah you could double bake his photos yeah no go ahead yeah no i mean that's that's definitely where i fell in love with it was like in the action sports world and then um you know i discovered the outdoors later in life and now i'm realizing that um i think that craft needs to be brought back to hunting more you know I think there's a lot of people doing it, but not necessarily telling stories with it. Yeah. I can't even imagine how many things you've read in magazines with photos that you were inspired by.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I've always been a fan of good photography for sure. I mean, that was one thing. Me and Roy, almost from the day one, we were never good, but we always made an effort to have cameras there and just get photos. And so we always, you know, couldn't wait to get down and get the film developed, one-hour photos, that whole thing, double prints, let's do it all. Oh, four by six, four by six, glossy, you know, if you had extra money.

Oh, okay. So, no, that's why I'm so, I love your work so much because it is so powerful. Your photos are, I don't know, I guess I haven't, I guess I haven't, if there's a, style of yours that I'm like I could just look at a photo and be like oh that has to be Caleb's I don't know if I've that dialed in on it but what you do is the work you do and then the stories like when you do post and you do the captions with it so well written so just

well presented it's just yeah you are you know you talked about Huberman's guy as far as having a legacy or making a name I you're doing the same thing thanks man I appreciate that yeah you're kicking ass especially coming from you no no no no nobody would know me if it wasn't for him. Yeah, that's not true. So tell me, like, you guys have been here. Why were you here?

What were we doing? What was it? We were filming with you. I know, why. I was like, you had some dream you wanted to, sort of starting a podcast or something. Yeah,

so what, why are you guys like the dream team for content? What, what, why do you gravitate towards Caleb? Why have you guys worked together and then how's, how's it been? And then just how to happen.

Yeah. Well, quickly, you're talking about the style of Caleb has and how when you see something Caleb shoots, you're immediately like there's something. And I can't really define it either, but there's something there where, and I wouldn't normally say this in front of him, but like when you see a photo that he's taken, to me, it's like it screams authenticity. Like, oh, that's actually a real photo. That's not, that's not something that's been, you know, dreamed up in the boardroom

somewhere and then been drawn up on a computer. you get the sense that that's like a, like that's a person that actually does what he's kind of, you know, doing in the photo. And it's very authentic. And I like that style a lot. And like you, I grew up in a world where, especially in the hunting industry, you know, there's, there's a tendency to, you know, you don't always portray the exact things that maybe are, you know, you portray yourself differently sometimes than what is the reality.

And I always thought that what Caleb did was very refreshing, um, particularly. a lot of the people that he focuses on and the things that he shoots are just are just you know it's not because they have a bagillion followers or because they've got a big tv show or everybody knows about them it's because they're real you know yeah and they uh what's that what's that guy you always tell me about this guy that like basically he's like a killer outcounter but he's out there with like his sandals and like smoking marlboros and just like you right now um uh Cody cole yeah yeah so is he from southern oregon east or no eastern oregon yeah yeah So I'm going up there next week to tell his story.

Oh, okay. And like, you know, he's calling me off a landline. Like, and those are the stories they get me stoked. That's awesome. You know, so. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, I think what you're kind of mentioning is back in the day, it'd be like, you could just tell like, oh, we need a packout photo.

Like, have these antlers and some old bleached out skull, obviously from years ago. Or then it's like, well, if you got really. tricky you can get some like a game bag and put some ketchup or shit on it to make it look like blood but it's like so fake still so fake i mean there's some people do a really good job of it le jos does a really good job of making it look authentic it's not authentic right but it's pretty it looks pretty good then there's some terrible work that doesn't even look close to good but then there's like what you're i think you're talking about a referencing is like real from a real hunt Yeah, I mean, that's the goal, right?

Yeah. And to kind of like paint a picture, like, I don't, I'm not some like purist where like, I don't do it perfect, but that's, I definitely want to do it right. And I think a lot of the times, you know, when you're when you're working like for a client, like you're under pressure. And so like you might be, you might have to do some of that. Like so I understand and try to not assume the worst, you know. But sometimes you see something that's hard to swallow or you're just like, oh.

Well, in an agency or boardroom, as you mentioned, I don't even know if they know what an authentic meat is, really. I mean, they have this vision and they have this objective or this storyboard type thing. And they just want to hit that. And it's just like, then we look at it and we're like, it's not real. What are you talking about? That's not. And unfortunately, for me,

A lot of that stuff, it works. Yeah. Like marketing, like that boardroom level in New York, like, works. Works, but what do you define works? Well, because you're shifting like a little lever here and like a million people, you're changing their habits and their ideas and the posters they put on their wall and what they aspire to. Right. It's powerful and it's unfortunate. Yeah, it's, I guess it does work in that metric.

But. Yeah. But there's no soul to it to me. It's not art. it's an objective. They did, they did, they made this ad that made people look at this product. Correct. That's not art.

I like the art part of it. Yeah. It's like, can you have both? Yeah, I mean, if you do it right, but that's really hard. So to get somebody in a boardroom or an agency or a marketing guy to be like, yeah, we could do that, but how about this? And then this would be, you know, authentic is like, this, you know, whatever, people like to say authentic now. Like it, because now it's an option to be fake, you know, so we celebrate authentic.

Right. But we're all leaning or want or whatever. I've done all the fake photo shoots too. I've done them all. I know. And yeah, it's just so much better when it's real. Yeah. I don't know.

I don't know if it makes any difference on what, like, somebody who wasn't there when they're looking at it, but I feel like it does. I mean, my whole. And this is actually the other day, this is something that scares me a bit, but also I'm kind of like hopeful about it. You know, I went into the AI programs, right? And just for fun. I like fed the AI stuff on a Caleb's photos. And I said, you know, AI make me a photo that looks kind of like this as if Caleb shot it kind of thing. And it a couple seconds later, photo came up. It's pretty damn good, pretty close. And I sent him to Caleb. And I don't forget what you said, but you sent it to the model you shot with. And he was like, shit, that's a cool photo. And that scares me in some ways because that isn't real, right? But it can be passed off as real. And I wonder if that's going to be like the new sort of front,

I mean, we're already there, but like the frontier with photos and video and everything where is there going to be a value placed on something that is real compared to what isn't real? And how do you, like how are you going to value that if people can't tell the difference? Like even if I'm willing to say, yeah, I'm going to value an authentic photo or a video. or a story over something that isn't authentic, how are you going to know? Yeah. I think it's going to put more pressure on actually doing the thing so you can't simulate it.

I mean, it's hard to simulate breaking down an animal. I mean, I don't know if AI can do that to make it that real. Yeah, I always err on the side of like, oh, like, they'll never be able to actually do it because they can't feel the emotion or what it feels. like to be there. But Brandlin, you know, he's, he always sees things bigger and he's thinking, yeah, but what if it does, you know? Yeah. So it's crazy. I don't know if I see things bigger at all, but I remember a conversation. This is real I had with my dad years ago. And because we're, you know, we're driving in a truck somewhere and for some hunting camp thing. And we're talking as we don't

often do about artificial intelligence. And we're talking about like, will it ever replace, you know, what we're able to do as humans. And the creative part of that, right? And we kind of came to the conclusion, yeah, you know, he's going to come up with some great stuff. It's probably going to, you know, come up with the next pop tune. But it's never going to do, it's never going to come up with Bohemian Rhapsody. If you're familiar with Queen's Sondh.

Yeah. Because that's such, you listen and you're like, where did that come from? And, right. I mean, that's so creative and artistic and way out there. And obviously that's a pop culture example. You can say like Van Gogh story night or you can use all the outlier examples of artistic work that's been done by humans. I thought at the time I said,

Dad, that's never going to happen. And he agreed. And therefore, part of my, you know, my far-reaching kind of look at, like, what I wanted to do was, like, let's live in that space. Let's live in the creative space

where, like, that's not going to be touched by the people in the boardrooms or the AI stuff coming. And I no longer think that. I think that it, if you type on the right stuff, it's going to come up with Bohemian Rhapsody. and that, you know, I don't know if that's a problem.

It's just reality. It's just the way it is. But I think that's coming. I don't think that's far off. So to me, again, I look back at it. Like, you're right, there should be value in doing the thing and breaking down the animal. But if you're talking about just the actual, like, the video of that or the, if that's your proof, I don't know if that's good enough anymore. You know, way back, you know, and I'm not 100% sure from writing this, but what's the magazine?

with the border around, is it life? I can't remember. Time. Time. Time magazine. Okay. So, and I'm not 100% sure in this, but I think part of the reason why that magazine was started was, the thought behind it was that there is a lot of information. There's news out there. There's false news. Even back then, right? Because people were, were isolated. They're not as connected as we are now. And whoever started it said, hey, let's provide something that someone picks up. And we can, so far, we can separate the the chat from the weed or whatever. So we can, we can,

when someone picks up that magazine with the border around it, they know this is real and this is something I can trust. My question, I guess going forward is if we can't tell the difference between what an AI is making

and what someone like Caleb makes or you make, how do people like, where are people going to turn to find that stuff and know that it's real? They're not being lied to. And I don't know the answer to that. Yeah.

It's a crazy thought. Yeah, that is. It's, I don't know. I don't know if it's going to put pressure on more authentic experience. And, you know, I don't know if it puts, if it makes film more valuable because that's like a real experience, not a, because a photo captures that moment of time. So it's not necessarily the experience. It doesn't have to be. It could just be, you simulated this experience and capture that.

but is that going to make video and true authentic experience more valuable? I don't know because that's it's not saying it can't be replicated, but it seems like it's harder to replicate that much activity or pixels or whatever the hell you're talking about. Whereas photos, those seem like low-hanging fruit right now. Yeah, if I was a photographer, I'd be really weird. No, I think, yeah.

I mean, you're into music and film and they're already tapping into those worlds like. Yeah, the, Film stuff coming out is crazy. Yeah. Like if we're on Joe's podcast, this would be the time where we'd like pull up some video and we'd be like, yeah, that's, that was not real. That's not real film. Does it look too perfect?

The stuff I've seen looks too perfect. But maybe that's just an early, maybe it's going to get better. Well, you look at what it was a year ago compared to what it is now. And you look at the exponential rise of what's going on and what's driving that. And I mean, it's coming for sure. So how do you protect your own interest then? Like what can you offer that's going to offset that? That ease of like, hey, we need this photo, punch it in.

Here you go. We don't have to pay anybody. We don't have to work with this creative, whatever. So what do you guys offer that's going to hold that obey? I think I'd start by saying, like, if you're going to be a storyteller or a creative, you're going to live your whole life in risk, like whether that's financially or being behind you while you're shooting a bear. Like I think you get really comfortable with risk.

And I think the thing that we have in common is the stories we like to tell are pretty emotional or vulnerable or I hate that word authentic. But sometimes it's fitting, you know. So I like to think, at least my answer in yours might be different is because that's what we find comic ground on. I can't see it doing that interview that we just did. Yeah. So that's kind of where I live at with it. I don't spend too much time thinking about it. Just go to work.

Right. Yeah. No, I think that's a good point. Right. You can't, how somebody's impacted and like what you see in their eyes or their face when they're going back into a moment. and either experiencing something for the first time or going back on a memory, how would you ever,

it doesn't seem like you could simulate that because humans were so unpredictable and so unique. I'm hoping that emotion, that is pretty sacred, and I don't see how that can be replicated, but I don't know. I think if, you know, I think a couple things. First of all,

I think that if you're in, if you're a creative with a, with a camera right now and you shoot product stuff, like, you're fucked. Yeah. I think you'll think of it.

Yes. I mean, I think that's unfortunate. Yeah, there's, there's stories and I don't want to cut you off, but I heard a story about a fellow photographer

that was pitching with a client. And he used AI in the pitch to show them what the shoot will look like. And they said, oh, we'll just use these. These are great. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, in the other side of it, I guess, you know, obviously from our perspective, like this is kind of scary. But from the other side, you know, if I'm starting a business and I'm trying to create some widgets and I don't have 10 grand to pay some crazy photographer, here you go. You know, my stuff looks like a Nike campaign now and I can compete. You know, so that's great. But like fundamentally for me when I think of storytelling and, you know, that's when we're talking about video and photography, those are mediums, right? Or talking about sitting around a fire. But really, it's all story based, right?

And to me, the best stories, or what I try and think of when I'm creating something is, you know, will this move people, this resonate with people in a way that shifts their thinking somehow? And, you know, I guess emotionally probably is how you normally do that, right? People feel an emotion and that shifts the way they look at something. Right. I, again, going back to the Bohemian Rhapsody thing, I think that AI is going to be able to replicate a lot of the technique for doing that. And that can be, you know, I can create emotion right now by showing you a video of an elephant dying, a baby elephant that just came out of the room now instead. That's, yeah, I can do that. And you're not going to be able to tell the difference.

I hope that, like what happened with that magazine, that there's going to be a way for people to know that that isn't real. And I hope that they put a value on something being real and the people being real. And so interviews like what we just did, I mean, yeah, those are real. And maybe AI will be able to, if I type in, hey, like, or, you know, in a few years, Elon has a way to, for a brain to talk to it just like, and say, hey, like, I envision this. It just comes up with you talking about your childhood and issues you have with your dad. Maybe it can replicate that, but I would be looking for it. I think it's a little early, but somewhere to create content with the hope that people are going to go there and say, hey, like, I want real stuff. I want, I want to hear a story around the campfire, so speak, made by real people.

because otherwise you're being manipulated. Yeah. Yeah. I hope it puts pressure on making real, you know, like putting more value on that. Because it is so good. They're like, people are going to be like, well, it's good, but it's not real. You know, and it's almost, and it's crazy how fast this went because you could watch a movie even now. And you see these scenes and you're like, oh, fucking CGI sucks.

You can tell. Right. You can tell like an animal. I don't even know what it's like it's supposed to be a bear, but it's sort of like a bear wolf type. What is what is this? What is going on? So to go from that, which is now to what AI is already to where you watch it and you're just like, because that looks real. I can't hardly.

I can't. So it's crazy how fast it's evolved already. Yeah. And one other thing I'll say is I use like the product example, but also like big car commercials. You know, when you show the car like doing drifting in the sand dune. and stuff and going on the crazy highways, those are dead. In my opinion, those are gone. Those are four million dollars shoots.

And they're going to be able to do them for 500 bucks. Right. And so I'd be scared if I was doing that too. But fundamentally true art, right? We're not talking about true art here. Like we're talking about using creative people to, again, move people emotionally. Or like a car commercial, like make something look really cool and shiny and different and catch your attention.

But like what Caleb said, like a true artist, much like maybe a quote unquote true hunter, outdoorsman or ultra marathon runner, you're going to do that stuff whether or not people are paying you or watching you. Right. And that's, you know, I like the idea of being a creative and I'm very grateful to be able to be in a creative space and provide for the family. But, you know, I think we need to look at the potential of one day, you know, I'm going to have to look in the mirror and say, do I want to be a creative just to do it? and just for the art and make you know make stuff in the dark that nobody's going to see or care about yeah and that's a scary thought to me yeah i think it's going to make like if i think of filming an ultra as we were talking about earlier and you just mentioned but like the big scenes of the the runner running down a trail to me that's going to be less valuable than showing blisters on your

toes, blood going down from your knee, a raw spot where your pack is rubbed on your back. Right. It's going to, you're going to have to get that shit. Right. Yeah. Because that's the real stuff. Whereas we've been a little bit, it's been a little lazy as far as filmmaking goes, because you could just like, oh, get that scene.

Good enough. Now it's just like, no, I mean, it's okay. It establishes whatever, the setting, but we need nitty gritty. We need real, like the real details now, which we always wanted to get that because that's like where you'd watch a film and you're like, man, that was, they really went all out on that one. But now it's just like, if you're not doing that, you're fucking gone. So you better be going all out, getting that little stuff. Yeah, you can throw in the big stuff too because that does set the mood.

But I think it's going to put more pressure. And I think it's going to make people like you guys who are talented, who have that perspective, were like, no, I know what real is and looks like and feels like and smells like and tastes like and looks on camera. That's what we got to have. Yeah. And if, so you guys could separate yourselves, you know, instead of people saying like, oh, this is the end. We're in creative.

It could be like maybe or maybe it's going to, for the legit guys who have this authentic vision, it's going to open more doors. I don't know. I really wish you were a creative. I could hear the Cam Haynes response to AI. Yeah. I know exactly what he would say. Yeah.

What? Nobody cares. Work harder. Yeah. That's it. It's just, I just think that, yeah,

there are some challenges. There are some changes for sure, but. Well, and also, like maybe I like that vision, camp, obviously from our perspective,

like, yeah, hell yeah. Like, that's what I want to happen. I hope it does. And I think it will. But also,

like, funnily enough when you point when you pointed out like the big vistas and the and the high and like see giant stuff like was that stuff ever really important you know like is that really is it cool because it looks cool and it's and it's unique and novel to be you know I don't know seeing some giant vista of the mountains or like on Mars or something is it cool just for that reason or is it cool because um or like like I guess what I'm saying is like should it should have always been about the grittier stuff. the realer stuff, the human interest stuff, I don't know.

It should have always been, but I just don't think it was, it wasn't as critical. Now it's critical because there wasn't the competition or there wasn't the easy out to get that. And people, most people, they watch stuff like that. They're not doing it themselves, right? So for them, they're watching it and they're like they're imagining, oh, that must be incredible. Most people don't go to Africa, but they watch shit documentaries all the time on Africa. Right. So it was it's important in that aspect, but I think like the next level is that that the detail part. And I don't think that's ever going to lose this value. But I don't know about how

to say about what was the big stuff ever valuable. I think in some ways it was or is. But yeah, I just think that that now it's just you're going to whether it was or wasn't, you're going to have to get better. It's going to have to be more than that now. But I think, I think, it's really cool that you are talking about I call them tangibles because like you know if you're duck hunting it's it's like a different weed than if you're elk honey yeah and so like to me that all adds up to a story like or part of the story and I was thinking about and you'll see that in a lot of my stuff is like really close focus but there was a guy I was within his story was incredible he was an elk guy in New Mexico and he didn't talk much and like I looked at his hands and they were they told

the whole story. Yeah. And I was like, I don't even need him to talk because if I can just get a picture of his hands, you understand like how much work that guy's put in. And, uh, yeah, those tangibles are so critical to storytelling. Yeah. And like with what we do with adventure too, it's say, you know, you kill a bull. You could simulate the perfect shot in a bull, I guess going down, but you couldn't simulate a less than perfect shot in a tough blood trail and on your hand. and knees and looking on and for a spec on pine knee you know that still is so valuable and that's real so it's it's just gonna real stuff as i think always gonna be have that value because you can't you can't simulate it you can't predict it i mean you can you can just not not that great i mean

there's because there's so much it's like when you mentioned out about that guy in his hands i have this old photo of me and roy were moose hunting and we're coming down and had to he'd killed a moose who were floating down the river and i remember his hands sitting on the boat and he's got duct tape around his finger because he cut his finger yeah duct tape works for everything and that that hand with the duct tape on it that that's all you need to see yeah you know so could you simulate that sure but man it's that real stuff i think it's just just so valuable that leads me to my next question is like what are you guys what excites you you right now like what are you working on that excites you what what project um and why does it

excite you let's i'll let you answer first um that's a great question so we so we just did the the film uh gone you know with my dad yeah and that i don't know if that film excited me so much as i thought it was a film that you know i wanted to to tell wanted to do uh and i mean we we do a lot different stuff we do we do film i mean a lot of different stuff excites us for different reasons right so we're doing some pretty cool stuff with some different companies that are interesting and and companies that have given us a lot of much like we're talking about you know it's not coming from board rooms and and a bunch of directives and stuff they say okay make something real with real people right so there's not like product shoots and stuff these are like tell stories about people

doing interesting cool things and and those that excites me uh what also excites me though is some of the longer form stuff where we're like what you said you know and Caleb and I talked about this all the time when we're traveling and you know we're dead tired after a shoot we're saying like are we headed in the right direction yeah and we're leaning in like what you said to well people are going to value real stuff with the gritty stuff we're not leaning into CGI or anything like that we're going and we're going to say like real people stories are going to be more and more valuable going forward and we would like to ideally be the people that you know are thought of when you're going to tell a real story yeah when you're going to tell a real story yeah that that moves people it

feels like god i was thinking about i i don't know what i was thinking about but putting more value on something now i can't remember what it was but in this in relation to this it's going to put more value on documentaries as opposed to big budget films films are fake anyway right you know i mean I mean, if you look, whatever, Rambo, Terminator, it's fake. It's not, didn't really happen. Rambo is fake? Well, no, not Rambo. Obviously, not Rambo.

Rocky, some people would say, I don't think, I think he was actually a heavyweight champion. But even though he weighed 200 or 190. But anyway, it's going to, I think documentary. Oh, that's what I was going to say. So it's the same way that value is being put on podcast now after the election. It used to be big. media news outlets, they controlled the narrative. Now, after Rogan and this election, and people saw the value of podcasts. Now, podcasts are like advertisers like, what the

I'm not spending money? Nobody's even watching mainstream media. We're going to spend it on podcast. Same way that big budget films, I think can be simulated way easier than a documentary of real people. So what you guys love to do, did long form documentaries should just increase in value. Yeah. I hope so. Actually, it's really interesting you said that. So if you think about it, when you go back to the, whatever, the 20s or whatever and you sit down, I don't know if it's 20s. When was Charlie Chaplin and all the silver screen stuff? I was just a baby at that time. Yeah. I thought you were fully grown back then. So, but back then people would be excited as hell, you know, for whatever the movie is and they go in there and they'd sit. I'm sure and be all blown away by the silver screen and there's no audio. or there's a band playing or whatever and the type on the bottom. That was like cutting edge media for everybody.

Now we look back on that and I mean I can't even watch it because it's and I want to watch it because I want to feel like I'm like I can't watch movies from the 90s. Right. Well that's what I'm saying is like this is like we should make no mistake with the stuff that we think is amazing now in 50 years, you know people are going back and like wow dad like that's this sucks.

This sucks. Yeah. You actually see this? And I think it's a common fallacy to think that like the world doesn't change and that we don't evolve and and have different priorities on things. No, but what doesn't change is are good stories. Correct. You know, I can still watch. I can still watch old documentaries that still hit, you know, and still evoke this emotion.

What am I saying? I said evoke like 20 times today and I've never said it before my life. It's because it's the gun name that's in the film gone. Oh. That's why it was our market. It was our marketing tag. Really? And it's working. Sublimital.

Yeah. See, that's the power of stories. That's right. Even though I never watched Gone. There you go. I love it. That's how good the messaging works. All you got to do is see the thumbnail. No, I did watch it.

It was great. I just wanted your dad to get a bear. That's all. I was like, this thing has to end with a dead bear. That's the one thing you told me when you watch you. It would be nice if you got a pair. Yeah, I agree.

Sitting in the rain for like four days in November. It was rough. Yeah. But that's. That is real life too. So yeah, not everything follows a script. But yeah, so I think when I think of it, it's like the docs are going to be, those are going to be the thing. Nobody's going to give a shit about anything that can be simulated anymore.

I guess, I mean, probably some, some like the just. Well, I think if you think about it, like there's going to be a whole group of weirdos that love AI. Yeah. They'll sit down, watch three hours of something fake that never happened. And it's the same feeling that you were talking about earlier where films are fake, a lot of films are fake. But if you watch like, I don't know, what's like a fictional war movie? Yeah. Oh, saving Private Ryan.

Is that fake? Well, I mean, the movie is. Well, so my point I was trying to make is like if it's a completely fake film story, everything, it has a different, when you end it, it doesn't feel the same as when you watch like Hacksaw Ridge, which was like this guy actually went out and did this. Of course it's dramatized. Well, saving private Ryan still, still, I mean, I still feel it. That's not a real story? Well, I don't think that they went after like the actual private Ryan and all his brothers died. Okay.

You know, that's the premise of the story. But it was kind of based on a real story, isn't it? I would imagine. I never saw that it was based on a real story. Whatever you see that, like based on a true story. Yeah. I think it hits a little bit. It does.

It adds a little more to it. It does. Because you're always like, or I watch a movie and I'm like, did this happen? I'm going to see. And if it happened, it's just like, okay, no wonder I was so affected. Yeah. It was real. Yeah. So I get that. I get that. Yeah. So that's cool. So you're putting value on something purely because it's not based on events. Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, I guess, you know, hopefully that keeps going forward and gets even. I think it will. I think the culture as it, as it becomes more saturated with artificial, I think the authentic, it becomes more valuable.

Yeah. And just, I mean, it's the same way that podcast can be contrived. I've seen that like mainstream media can. You know, you've seen that like when they had COVID and they were all saying the same script about whatever, you know. And then people were watching that. Rogan has played this where every single news host or whatever anchor was saying the exact same words. And it's just like, so that was the tipping point a little bit.

For now, people are like, what the hell is going on? And it made podcasts where real discussions where you're not talking perfect. And you say, then you're like, oh, wait, no, no, no, that's not what happened. But it gave this, or the candidates, like with election to people really be able to learn what they're about. Absolutely. It's the same type of thing because podcasts right now are just exploding. And I think right now people, they want to trust something. And so hopefully, like, the stories that we're working on, like, people gravitate towards because, yeah, I think that's a bigger thing.

like what can we trust right now what i always think about is people i always think about the saying give me something to believe in yes that's all i want give me something to believe in if i look at something and i don't it's like okay on to the next but if you give me something i can believe in shit we're on the right right track that's what i want so you asked earlier uh you know about some projects we're working on one thing that keelb and i talk about a lot just related to this is uh um and even in storytelling. I try and look at like what the the greater idea is, right? So once for a wolf, for example, is, you know, on one level is about some dudes going hunting and it's about a guy who lost his best friend and he's coming back for the first time to, you know, follow on the footsteps

you guys originally started. But it's also, you know, more broadly, the theme is, you know, that we've lost a bit of our old selves. Everybody has. And along with that, has come our sense of adventure and brotherhood and the bond that's formed when you have, you know, dangerous experiences together, things like that. So right now, like when we're talking this conversation, I'm thinking my line, like, digital. And then I'm going back to, you know, pre, this is going to date me a little bit back to when, you know, you'd sit down at the washroom and a bunch of, like, magazines instead of your iPhone, right?

And when you're reading books, you're not reading Kindles, you're reading, like, actual physical things. and you know having bookshelves full of a thousand books and you can walk into someone's place and look at that shelf and like without even meeting that person you can know a little bit about who they are. And so I think digital versus analog is kind of an interesting thing.

Like part of me and we've had lots of conversations Caleb has ideas he can bring up or not here. But I think it'd be cool. I wonder if maybe we're going to slingshot like way out in the CGI direction and the AI stuff and when we start to realize like how you know, empty that is in some ways and how scrolling on our phones can be kind of like, yeah, it evokes emotions, but it's not really real, right?

We're being manipulated. How cool would it be to like spring back the other direction. And now we're getting like to physical things. And you, you know, instead of like scrolling through your phone all day, like you take like a physical object, a book, a magazine, you know, even a record player or something. And that becomes more, I don't know, maybe I'm being like yearning for. the old days but I feel like the analog stuff there's something to that and maybe you would know for sure like this is printed in an actual place where humans are taking this and putting this together and writing about their adventures and and you read that you say oh this is I can believe in this

you know I mean there's still bookstores people still yeah I mean like having a book is still valuable when you talk about nostalgia or going back or whatever so we're not quite to our Everything is digital and you don't need a bookstore. It's like there's still value in having like my book, undeniable. I mean, it looks good. It looks great. You said you can tell a lot about when you see somebody's book collection, a kind of a glimpse into what makes them tick, right?

So that's still there. I will say, though, on the book sales, audio books. They crush. Too well? Yeah. They crush everything else. Yeah. Kindle, hard covers.

but yeah I mean there is something to having and I remember too you know you mentioned the skateboarding magazines but the old hunting magazines is all I just go and look at go to the store just to look at magazines yeah that's just what I was doing just like went to the store and just looked at magazines the whole time so I to still love all love that see what I question now is like the impact that you had looking at that magazine like for my son he's nine and he's starting getting in hunting like his version of that is digital and I'm questioning if it has the same impression right because I felt like I mean I can basically remember certain photos and now it's like so fast and I wonder if that impression is as if it marks them the same way yeah like in your soul psyche yeah kind

yeah because I mean that's what I felt with reading that stuff I know I remember Chuck Adams he killed this bear on Kodiak. I said it was like 1,400 or 1,400 pounds, but he's sitting there kind of died in his creek. I can still see the alders and the moss and him sitting there, his big old double X-75 arrows. And he's got his beanie on. I still see that photo. Wow. From, I don't know how 30 years ago. Wow. You know, so I do know what that means. Whereas if I'm thinking of an image that I saw on Instagram, right. I can't think of one. Yeah, that's Exactly. So you might be on to something.

Yeah, absolutely. Then how do we, how do we impact this generation in the same way? Is it film? Is it more gritty photos that have just more emotion in them? I don't know. I know. Yeah. I got ideas, but no proven solutions, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. But it is stuff I, I mean, that's what I think about, you know, especially with kids. with my kids. I mean, I think to me, it's obvious. I think you have to lean into, like when everybody's going full on to the AI, CGI world, I mean, that to me is like a, it's like a void of nothingness.

You know, there's nothing there. Certainly nothing for like the values that I have and things that I care about. There's nothing in that for me. Yeah. So, you know, to me, you got to lean the other direction and you have to believe in your, in your being that what you do, you know, will continue to be valuable. And again, you know, I keep thinking analog because that's a, that's the polar opposite of the direction we're going. Yeah. So for me, I think. So like what? You want to shoot on film?

Well, film would be incredible. Yeah, but film is is very difficult to do. No, I think we want to make something physical, like a... I think you should be a part of it. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think we could recreate that feeling that you had in the grocery store for this generation. Yeah, I do. That sounds fun. Yeah. You asked what projects we were excited about. Should I talk about the RAM? That's what I'm excited about. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know John Pinch at all? He just eroded that ram in Hells Canyon. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I've never met him, I don't think. Yeah, he's an Oregon boy. Really nice guy. but yeah i i went and shot that and then uh it's in like post-production right now so good film uh yeah like the story is not as um lengthy you know like you think of a ram hunt and you want to go nine days or what day did he kill three okay so well better than day one yeah but i mean he's he's he's a legit hunter yeah he's he kind of pulled me aside he's like he's like man sorry it's not you know what you would imagine yeah he's like he's like sometimes

you just get a layup and yeah yeah so i mean you take him when you can get him yeah so that was cool but but he got it with his bow oh yeah yeah he's he's known as a rifle guy right that's that's i didn't even know he bow hunted but i don't really know him but he bought the bow i think the bow came in two weeks before the hunt and uh yeah he was a giant ram i don't know a lot about Rams but yeah yeah it was cool so I'm excited about that one but yeah I mean the thing that makes us tick is just those stories that are a little deeper you know so whether it's a nobody that's calling me off a landline yeah you know people that are known I just I want to tell stories that have an impact and something I show my son and he like is motivated to go

be whatever he's called to be you know yeah and yeah I can't wait to show him your book Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, it's, yeah, I don't know. So that RAM, how long is a film going to be, do you know? I don't know yet. Oh, okay. Yeah, I got to do the whole Branlin shocky, like, set up the story and then you show it on, you know, so that'll be cool.

Have you ever finished something in post? Because I feel like your post process is lengthy. See, photos, you can take like a thousand of them. And then a few hours later, you know, they're all done and they're sent them. But video takes, like, consistent. It is hard. Effort. Yeah, it does.

Yeah. So you film video? I did. Yeah. I did both. I mean, I always do both. Like, I'm not going on an adventure without taking photos. What was a kill shot like?

Very close. Really? Bro. Like, he, it's 118 and they go down to the water and he slips in on top. Like, just like, I know they got to come back up after water. Mm-hmm. And they're, it's a. John.

and his buddy Matt behind a rock. And he's thinking the Rams are going to come up the same way they went down. And he's full draw of the left. And Matt's like, hey, they're on the right. Oh, man. And so he goes under Matt. And then. Stayed at full draw or let up?

No, he stayed. Okay. Yeah, kind of sketchy. Yeah. They're organ boys. Yeah, no, they get it done. Yeah. That's awesome.

And, I mean, I wish he'd been shooting his bow for, decades. That's only the couple weeks, but whatever. I mean, I know, sounds like he's a great hunter and turned out good and he made a good shot. I think he was like deep into archery

for a long time. Oh, he just got a new bow. Yes. So I don't think he owned one for a couple years or something. I just didn't want someone to go pick up a bow. No, that's not recommended. As they're going to the hunt. No, no, no.

He's definitely qualified. But yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I wish, I mean, I want to go on one of his hunts. Who mine? Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't want to screw James out of the opportunity to get fired.

But, I mean, these guys, these guys will film what I'm sure. Yeah, absolutely. I should draw Winnihan this year, which is Oregon's premier Elkhunt. I've been putting in, this will be, I have 23 points. So I put in this, this will be the 24th year. and I have a 72% chance of drawing. So that's backcountry wilderness, hunting off the back,

and it should be a decent bowl. You know, good bowls back there. That's exciting. Would you need to be in shape, you think, to follow you around on one of the elk hunts or no?

Pretty easy hunt from the road. Yeah, no, it'll be a road hunt. Yeah. That's my starting. You don't need to get in shape. But yeah, I mean, that's going to be fun. So we definitely have to make, make the most of that.

I don't know how many people we can take. Oh, I bet you would love it just like four people behind you. No. Yeah, he loves that. I don't want even one person, but we are going to have to come up with a good plan for this one. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm excited about that. You just reminded me of it when he said you wanted to film one of mine.

That one, the other ones, like, they're great hunts, giant bulls, not quite the same. is packing into the wilderness. You know what I mean? To me, this is, and especially in my home state, and especially a tag I've been putting in for it for 24 years. What do you think would be, I'm really curious, what would be like the ultimate hunting film to you? Yeah, that's exactly what I want to know.

What would it have in it? A weather event. So James is always saying we need a what. What's that? It's it nothing I've made. Yeah. Weather event is nice, yeah. The opposite of whatever.

right so that's a good starting point no um god i like well i love the grizzly hunt i love the dangerous stuff i mean that's just like you know a bow hunted a lot a lot of different things most are just prey animals and you know as a predator we have the advantage just as far as that goes um so i love hunting predators and where there's risk or high stakes involved that's my That's what I love the most. Wow. And then, yeah, just adventure, just capturing a big adventure. What about discomfort?

Yeah. I mean, it's not, you know, it's not like anybody's like, oh, I can't wait to be miserable. But it makes, that is usually part of these trips, and it does make great film. Yeah. You know, because you can't, again, we talked about simulating. It's hard to simulate being miserable or misery. Yeah, I was thinking about that. Because you were talking yesterday when we were filming, you're talking about part of the reason why people bring the rock up.

Why you have them do that is because, you know, at some level, and obviously not life and death, but it pushes people to, you know, a point where they, you know, become more vulnerable or their vulnerabilities are exposed and they become more open. And you kind of see a little bit about what this person is made of, right? It has nothing to do with the time they bring the rock up or anything like that. It's just like what they say, how they act. right um and i wonder you know because i've always i've never really thought exactly what specifics we're looking for but i know in like certain hunts i know like certain times they excite me and certain times i don't and usually i think has to do with like that level of discomfort and uh yeah like you know you're sleeping a night and your sleeping bag gets full of water and it sucks like

what do you say during that time you know when you're going to have to spend 12 hours in the dark with your soaked sleeping bag that says a lot about people And I think from a human interest perspective, because that's what we're talking about is films about people doing things that are hard. Yeah. I just think it makes things more interesting. And I've never really thought about until you mentioned The Rock. But the issue with you is that, you know, you got to, it's hard to find you get you in a position where you are so uncomfortable that, you know, you open up a bit. And so I don't know what that would be, but I don't want to be the camera guy on it. yeah yeah i just uh yeah making good film hunting film very hard very hard it's like we've filmed now you know for the last however many decades a lot of people filmed a lot of stuff so what what makes your story stand out you know once we're wolves did we had we had some great um yeah there's a lot of a great backstory and then also as you mentioned that the the

human evolution part about how we've been removing ourselves from the mountains essentially and so that that was super interesting that part of it then kipp's crazy quote about killer badass mountain man that kind of really just drove at home and then so yeah we had everything we needed there we had the magic formula for that film how do we do it again that's that's the challenge oh you mean you guys didn't sit down and write all that out and pre-planet yeah yeah because it's like we just we did the same hunt. We did a grisly hunt. We went back up there and made a perfect stock and made a perfect shot and the bearer's dead. It was a great film. But there wasn't, there was no, like, being miserable, really. There was no, like, you know, risk or the big story arc. It wasn't

there. Wait, Brantley tells the story different. He's whining about the whole thing. I wasn't saying I was that whining. That was the first one. I'm talking about the one we just did. Got it. The one we just did where I went in, made the perfect shot, bear went and died. I mean, it was great, great film. Yeah.

And James did a good job on that. We made a good film. It just was different because the pieces for the formula were different. Yeah. So I think that it's important to understand that we are not actors. Yeah. So yeah, I'm sure if you're Brad Pitt, I can give you a script and we go up there and we we I'm an actor oh that's right that's right you are an actor I'm sorry your card and stuff

I don't know I don't think so but yeah that's a whole learned thing yeah I forgot about that's hilarious yeah so any speak for yourself okay speak for myself me and Brad Pitt yeah besides you and Brad Pitt uh if you we're not not capable in a sense that people are going to like really it's not going to be believable right and this is a mistake you know I think this is a mistake to even try don't try and pre-plan stuff and say, oh, we're going to tell this amazing story. We're going to do this and this and this. And this is going to happen on day three.

And then we're going to go here. Like, don't do that. I think the first ingredient for, at least, you know, I'm talking from a very narrow perspective of like adventure documentary stories, right, long-in-form stories. Make it real. So don't, you know, if I would have said to you, hey, Cam, yeah, it's pretty cool. We're going to Alaska, you know, for the second trip, like let's, you know,

know pretend you want to go up there because of something else you did with Roy or like your other friend that whatever like that's it's not real right the Roy stuff is real and that's what made that so powerful yeah so it's got to be real okay it also needs to be difficult because if there's no challenge and then nobody gives you shit it's not it's not worth telling it's not a there's no accomplishment right right so it's got to be hard and that that varies like it doesn't need to be objectively hard it needs to be hard for the people involved So some guy from, you know, and doing accounting in the 90th floor of some Manhattan building, if he's going to go to an Alaskan hunt, you know, that might be hard of a shit for him,

even if it's not that hard of a hunt. And that works. That's great. So for that person involved, and that's why with you, it's so difficult because, you know, it's difficult to get you in a spot where you're going to be uncomfortable. It's nearly impossible. So, but you don't need that because you have the stories of war. But you have to be real.

You have to be something difficult. And I think it has to have to have. some overarching thing that resonates with people right and like the the crazy example is like nobody cares about some alien love story like we care about things that we can relate to and so with once we're revolves the idea that yeah we're we're losing a sense of who we used to be for for better or for worse and here's an example of someone like kip who like has everything the modern world thinks you know we need but he doesn't want that he wants to go back you know to be to not have that shit like that's interesting yeah

it resonates with people. Yeah. It resonated with me when I was, you know, the footage in the beginning of that film is, is from, I took that like in Vancouver, you know, looking at the hotels and stuff we're staying in that crazy landscape. Yeah. And thinking, wow, this doesn't feel natural with the people type of wearing keyboards, like in the little, the window frames and stuff of the buildings. Like that, what are we doing? What? Like, how do we get here? So, and that's just one. And I'm, and I don't know how to replicate that easily. Like coming up with this stuff is also difficult and you have to don't assume you can just you know even myself I feel a lot of pressure

because people like oh yeah you tell these great stories yeah yeah and like if we do someone with you it's going to be great I'm like oh what do you want to do like oh you know we're going to go on some hunt you know and it's going to be awesome you should come along um I'm scared is shit to do that because I don't want to let people down kind of what you do I don't want to create something that isn't going to move people you know and you need these ingredients and it's hard it sucks I think there's always going to be a challenge on making something powerful you know so maybe it's just even gotten harder now because you can simulate so much but the challenge hasn't changed it's like how are we moving people though that's that's always going to be the

question well there's so much competition these days yeah you know it's i feel like yeah i mean hunting is still unique where we can there's less competition in hunting and big adventure hunting Right. So you guys, I'm not going to say have a corner on the market. There's, because there's other people that are pretty good at it, but not a ton. So, you know, I mean, it's a good place to be. It's not like you're making car commercials or there's a million people. You know what I mean?

Yeah. There's a handful you got to be better than you guys can do that. Yeah. Right. That was pretty close to a compliment. Was that a compliment? That was pretty close. Was it?

I think I heard it. I didn't want it to come across that way, so I apologize. So good. Yeah. No, it's exciting to think about just creating. I mean, everybody, I sent you, you know, Max Joliffe, he had that film that Tyler filmed. Was Tyler's last name? Do we know?

Tyler? Do we know, James? No, I can't remember. Can't remember. Anyway. I thought that was great, super creative. I love the opening scene. So, I mean, that's just what we have to do.

We have to just make things that move people. Because when I watched that film, I was like, this is like a movie. It looked so good. And he had the music starting where Max is skateboarding. And then he picked up a skateboard, went into the liquor store, the convenience store, and the movie was playing over the speaker then. I mean, the same music that was playing as he was on the skateboard was playing in the store. Oh, I love that.

Yeah. And it just sounded different because it sounds like the audio from the store. So it's just like that little stuff. I'm like, that's what we have to do shit like that. Yeah. You got to learn how skateboard. No, I just like, you know, the story was just so good. But or how it was presented, I guess, was so good.

So speaking of hard things, this race you're doing is, what's it called? I don't recall. The 250 mile one? you don't know Cocodona is a secret coconut yeah

so we're gonna film that okay and Caleb and I have been talking about that because it's how many days are you to take you to do 250 miles depends on how fast I run yeah

well I looked at the logistical hurdle of filming that and it's going to be a pain in the ass and we're not even running we're just driving yeah it's going to be rough but I'm excited

because we're talking about like what goes into a good story and you know you're going you're going to do something that's hard objectively hard right by whoever measures it and i'm interested to see what happens uh yeah we're not pre-planning it we're just going to go and film yeah and see what ends up going on but um like you ask what kind of stuff excites us and what we're looking forward to i'm looking forward to that yeah i know no matter what even if you finish the thing and things go like relatively okay yeah there's going to be a story to tell there no that it never goes

relatively okay over three days. So it'll take me, like it took me to run 240 at my lab with 78 hours. So it's three days, essentially. And I think the record for this might be in the 60s. So potentially somebody could break 60 hours this year because Courtney's running. There's some great runners in there. I could see somebody going under 60, I think, with the perfect race. But it's going to be close to three days, no matter how you slice it for most people.

I think the cutoff is like, or no, for Taylor's race, he's doing the 300, the Arizona Monster. I think the time cutoff for that is seven days. Wow. Which seems like a long time. But what is that? That's still what is how many miles a day is seven, 70 miles a day? 40 miles a day. Yeah, that's 280.

So it's more than 40 miles a day. It's hard, dude. 40 miles every day for seven days. That's insane. And that's your cutoff. You have to get done in that time. And that's still hard. Yeah.

So if you've ever tried to go, how far can I go in a day? Not most people. Some people could get 40. But could you do it six more days in a row? Oh, man. That's what's hard. So yeah, you might think, oh, God, that's a long time to do a race. Not really.

You got to go 300 miles. So, yeah. with with uh it's just it's just going to be three days no matter what and in three days time where you know the objective is to not sleep as much as possible like with moab i think i said two hours so if you're only sleeping two hours and three days yeah crazy shit happens are you serious you're going to say some really crazy stuff and we're going to capture it um what is the most interesting thing about that do you think because i know like and we're talking about the physical part of and you're going to run yourself down.

And I think that's, you know, that's interesting. But what else about it? Because to me, when you're talking about doing this, like if we're talking about storytelling, I'm going to like, okay, like, why are you doing this? Right, because that's not normal to want to run 250 miles because of how difficult that is and the training involved.

And the fact that at the finish line, you're not, I mean, no one's waiting there with a Bentley for you. There's like five people there. Yeah, it's like five people on there. they're clapping, you know, whatever. Wow. It's not for the accolades. No.

Right. So like, again, you don't have to answer this now, but like if you're talking about storytelling, I would dig into that. And I'd be like, why? Just to see if it's possible. See if you can do it. Can I do, can I cover that distance? Right.

And then, you know, further to tell, like, I'd ask why like one more level, like, why is that important to you? Why is finding your limit important? And not just important from like a sense of like, oh, yeah, it's pretty important, but like important to the, to the degree that you're going to train five hours a day and run 100 mile weeks for months leading up to this thing to, you know, and so then nearly kill yourself. Like, why is that important? To me, it's just like the ultimate way to honor the gift of life. It's like this, I'm living my life. It's at its highest potential. I don't know what my highest potential is. I want to find out. because that's how you honor this this opportunity we have to do what we do if you're not giving your best if you're not always wondering what what am i actually capable of are you honoring your

the gift of life wow or are you just just getting is it just another day right okay so again story side for me that like that is the thing that makes this interesting that that's the thing that makes this something that I think can be very powerful because that resonates. Nobody wants to be in their deathbed, look back at their life and say, man, I could have done, you know. No, they say, I wonder if I could have done that. Right. And I want to know. Right. And that's relevant now, because if you're going to, if you don't want to be in that place, you need to change things now. You need to do more now. Yeah. And so seeing someone like yourself do that, even though it's like, it's almost a, it's such a physical thing, you know, uh, there's no way you can't watch.

and say, yeah, I think I could do a little more today. You know, and I think that's the way you resonate with people. So I'm excited to dig more into that. Yeah. I like the part of it too where because everybody's a lot of people, there's GPS trackers on all the racers and I've followed a lot of these races because there's always people I know running. I want to see how they're doing.

It's always like there's this fascinating part that happens where you're going through your day and you just check in like, oh, I wonder how Taylor's doing on this race. Oh, he's, you know, mile 80. Oh, that's cool. You go, you do whatever. You go to bed. You get out the next day. Oh, I wonder how Taylor's doing.

Oh, he's at mile 140. Wow. You're doing this. Oh, I got to go to work. Oh, we're going to go to the movie. You guys want to go get some dinner? Come out, go to bed, get up. I got to wonder where Taylor's at.

Oh, he's at 270 now. So this whole life is going on for days. All these different things people do. And this one person is still just running. Still just covering distance. for all these things that people did, all these birthday parties and fucking took a shit, six shits.

And it's just like all this happened while you were just running. Wow. That's just pretty cool. Well, just that curiosity, what happens when you need to use the bathroom when you're running? Well, like one of these ultras. Yeah, to be honest, I mean, there's not a lot of waste.

You know what I mean? Yeah. You're eating. less than you're burning. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So it's not like most people, if you say, I took six shits today, you ate way more than you burned, right?

Got it. Okay. So conversely, there's not a bunch. Yeah. So I don't remember, like when I did Moab, I don't remember taking a shit in three days. Wow. Running lean. Damn.

Yeah. So it's, I'm not saying people don't because your stomach does get kind of up. It's just like you're trying nowadays because of this fueling. People are taking in. It was like, there's formula how many carbs and calories per hour you need. Well, when you do that on an empty stomach and you're taking in all these high fructose, high sugar calories, it does mess with your stomach. So you can't have stomach issues that are the opposite of not taking a shit. So it's like, yeah, you're having all sorts of this.

But generally, yeah, there's not a lot of waste to expel. Interesting. But yeah. I think there's something, I think there's something beautiful, not in taking a ship, but there's something beautiful in the sense of like what you, what ultra marathon runners do. Where you're, and I've obviously never done it and probably never well, but, you know, when you're running out there in the middle of the night, nobody's around or maybe your pace or whatever.

and you've got 150 miles left to go and you've already been going for 24 hours and you've got five people at the finish line waiting for you. I don't know. I guess, you know, I think like with what we do, right, which is we currently, anyway, we create media, right? And the AI stuff is coming up

and that's going to create media that from a visual standpoint is probably just as good as what we do pretty quickly. And if we ever have to face that moment where you say, okay, hey, there just isn't like a market for this anymore because I can do stuff for 10 bucks that we would charge thousands of dollars to do. Our art isn't really worth anything. And, you know, if we're going to go forward or not, I almost think of like the

ultramarathon and stuff. It's like, you know, that shouldn't even be something we ask. It's like if you want to, if that's something you're drawn to, then do it. The other stuff doesn't matter all the stuff that we get tied into with the money and the trying to sell stuff and whether or not people like it. I mean, you've got five people to finish line and you're running a 250 mile race. Like that should be, I mean, I don't know if what you're doing is art necessarily, but I think it's beautiful in the same way that like art can be.

And there's a nobility in that. And I hope that whenever that choice gets put to myself, like my answer is going to be like, yeah, hell yeah. You know, I'm going to do the art for art's sake. And, you know, and being my deathbed, look back and say, yeah, I gave my life to that. And for like no more reasons. Mm-hmm. I like that. I think that when people think about these races,

you know, like if you think of Courtney doing this race, some people who aren't immersed in the culture would be like, oh, I wonder how much she makes with sponsors and I wonder this or that. And that's so far for somebody like her and for most ultra runners, it's just like that is, that's not why people do it. Because if that's why you do it, you're never going to do it

because you're never going to make enough money to offset the pain and the sacrifice. But like what fascinates me about her and you guys should listen to this, we did that podcast when she was here, but I didn't even realize this. We've run so much, spent so much time together. I did not realize this visual she has. But I want to say this too because you guys being creative will probably resonate with you. But she talks about going into the pain cave, right?

I thought, oh, you just embrace the pain. That's what we do. It's going to hurt. Every step's going to hurt. You embrace that you don't shy away from it. That's how you get. through this race. When she talked about the pain cave,

because she would say that, oh, she likes to hurt in these races because she wants to make the cave bigger. She's like expanding her pain cave. I did not realize until recently, and I've listened to every podcast she's been on, I've talked to her for days in the mountains.

I did not realize she is actually visualizing this pain cave, getting, cave every race with a chisel hitting it with the hammer and like rubble falling and she's making the case the actual cave is getting bigger she's putting she's working so she thinks about i'm just breaking rock i'm not running i'm working it's incredible yeah and then i was just like i didn't not i said is the cave is it furnished do you have have you made it nice in there she's like no but i said is there other wing she's like yeah Like a certain, whatever race she's doing, she might just go make a hallway.

Wow. She's actually thinking about that. Just the cave, the same cave, she goes back to where she left off in the last race. Wow. Yeah. So that's, I don't know what it means other than it opens up to me. And I've thought about this running since I've learned her approach. But it just opens up this other door of,

what is going on with these races? Yeah, yeah. What is this dimension I didn't know about? Because I was, even being a lifelong runner, I thought it was just like, oh, we just got to deal with this pain. I didn't know there was this other dimension where you could go away from the pain or embrace the experience,

appreciate and love the pain instead of shying away from it, and lean into it. And I'm using this pain for this purpose to work this cave. I'm not running. Working on this cave. Yeah, I mean, I think it's very powerful and I think just makes me think of like wow, like how crazy is the human mind? That's why I wanted to mention it because you guys, as I said, being creative, maybe that unlocks an idea. Maybe it unlocks something in your brain to capture this experience in a more poignant, powerful way. Because we haven't thought about that before. We haven't thought about like, oh, well, I was coming at it from this way.

We can come at it from this way. Yeah. What does that look like now? So that's why I mentioned it here, because I just think that, you know, events like that is like our brain, I don't know how it controls us. I don't know what kind of influence it has, but there's something crazy going on. Yeah. And you would never, like I wonder, is she alone in that? Because, specifically, specifically she's doing ultras and pushing herself that hard or is that something that, you know, we all kind of do in a way we have her own pain caves and maybe we don't think of it so clearly is that. But maybe that's, you know, because our brain is, you know, constantly, what is it, plastic, plasticity or it's constantly changing. And I wonder if we're adapting

ourselves, like I wonder if her brains like, hey, this is hard. And, you know, I'm going to send you this thing where you can sort of explore into because that's like a coping thing. And, and And then she explores more in that direction, becomes stronger and stronger. And that becomes something like part of her identity. I kept asking her questions. And she was just like, I think I want to stop. She goes, the more I talk, the more crazy I sound. And I'm like, no, I had no idea.

Yeah. I just loved it. So you can't say it's crazy because it's her thoughts and it's how she's dealing with it. So maybe instead of crazy or something, maybe it's like it's the key. Yeah, maybe she has the key. Yeah, you can't deny that. Yeah. For her, it's the key.

Did that translate to you? Like, do you have a visual now? Or like, did that? I've been trying, I mean, I haven't to get there, bro. It's going to be dark. My little training runs, even if they're long, you don't get there. That happens after a while. Right.

You know, so then, I don't know. I haven't been, haven't been there yet. Well, that's what I was going to say. I mean, I think every human is. creative to some degree and that is a true expression of what she's earned because that's like that's her creativity right so when we talk about AI you're AI you can't you can what we just talked about AI no future in that a human brain navigating through challenge like that that's always going to be unique and so

that story and that that visual is always going to be its own, it's own, you know, and so how, but how can we, how do we share that? How do we, how do we spotlight that? That's the challenge. But stories like that or experiences like that are always gonna be, that's what, that's a human fabric. Yes. Yeah, I mean, I think we embrace that.

You know, I think we embrace the fact that we're human and we don't try and, like, you know, in the old days, not the old days, but not too long ago. there's an emphasis on, you know, doing math and calculations and stuff and, you know, memorizing answers to questions. I think nowadays, I hope as that AI stuff becomes more powerful and able to answer any question we want, there's less of a need for us to memorize things and know how to do our, you know, whatever multiplication tables and potentially more of a need for us to, you know, keep grounded in like what makes us human with all the flaws and the beautiful madness. that makes up our lives.

Like how do we, how do we keep grounded in a world that's constantly trying to manipulate us? And I think that's an example of that. She creates her own pain cave and like freaking hacks away at it to like make herself able to, you know, excel in this crazy difficult environment. Yeah, that's what a beautiful thing. Yeah.

And I just love, we're so like, when I talk about these calories per hour, carbs per hour, super shoes. so science-based. And then conversely, I asked her, I said, do you know what your V-O-2 max is? You guys know what that is, right? Like V-O-2 max, it's like whatever,

endurance measurement type thing. But she's like, no. She's like, it doesn't, I don't care. It doesn't, wouldn't matter to me what it is. Yeah. So I love that part where everybody else is leaning into performance and science and this or that. She's just like, what difference does it make?

I'm running in the mountains. She doesn't listen to music when she goes running. She's like by herself. I said, you listen podcast music? No, nothing usually. Just love some mountains. So to me, it's like that spirit is so unique. And then also the fact that she's the best ever do it.

Right. So is that the key? Does she have the key? Is like all this other science and the strategy and the in the, just these calculations on how do I be is that the wrong path and her path is the right path I don't know it's like rocky deep questions yeah yeah I don't know it's it's pretty fascinating but until you're out there pushing your limits like like she has or some of these

runners will do for 200 miles you'll never have this discussion it's never going to come up right and regular that's why regular life to me sucks What do you learn? What do you learn? Right. Yeah. It's all controlled. We're never uncomfortable.

I mean, what do you learn? You don't learn, you learn this much about what makes you tick or what's important to you or what's important to these other people because it's just so sanitized and protected. I don't give a fuck about that. Right. So, and I think that that, like, I think that, like, I think that in general, general, people are not as content as what they, is it what they sort of portray. So when you start talking about someone like Courtney having a key and like finding this, this place where she can, you know, this, there's sort of mental strategy to get around like how difficult the current

situation is and and excelling and being the best and ignoring the science and like just being herself and eating nachos and drinking beer or whatever and then going crushing everybody in the mountains, not listen to music. I think that's interesting. And I don't think that everyday life, if you start talking about doing the regular, obviously, like, with all respect, the nine to five thing, that doesn't usually make like an interesting story, right? Because does it usually or never? No, well, maybe never. I'm just saying, like, people are drawn to that because I think deep inside, we're like, well, yeah, we're not really content.

Right? Most people aren't. And when we see someone who is content doing crazy shit and excelling at it, that's like a draw. to everybody that resonates with everybody i think so i mean even i even think about sometimes like oh i have i did a hundred mile a week i did 20 miles today and i'm like is that that is that doesn't mean shit 20 miles back in whenever time when you had to cover distance to survive 20 miles was nothing yeah nobody said oh god that's incredible how much have you done this week there's just like that so that's what we're built for that's what the human body's designed for not for not for watching tv so

why are we celebrating just doing what we're designed to do you know what i mean it's not a 20-mile run should just be yeah that's what humans are are built for it's just weird how how much has changed and then that that makes me think of too like when people say you know i mentioned this the other day but But when I think of Courtney or when I think of people like her, when people say, well, what makes you happy? Are you happy? Because, man, you do all this stuff. It seems like, what's wrong? Are you not happy?

And it's like, well, what is happy? I don't know what happy is. Happy to me is not eating birthday cake watching TV. Happy is being in the mounds and being kind of miserable. So it's like, why is your definition of happy? what I have to say, I mean, who's to say what's happy? I think what you think, when you're happy, I would be miserable.

And when I'm happy, maybe you would be miserable. So it's just weird how different we are. Same species. Same. And it's like, so it's pretty fascinating. But I just, that's what excites me is discussions like that, moments like that, learning nuggets like that from I don't know it's just yeah yeah I don't know I said it's it's

I love that cam yeah I just I just want to that's the type of stuff I want to share create impact people with that those types of things so how do we make that as a package that now people can be like I get what they're saying right this is it I get it how do we make people get you know that's the challenge i think you're doing it man i think you are doing it with the books with the podcast with the films like so many people are inspired by yeah well then you think about that story i told you about huberman saying like his lift run shoot experience here carrying the rock shooting the bone all that that after 48 or 49 years that was the best day of his life right right how could that happen how could you have what everybody else would look at his life

from afar and be like this guy's got it all But then the guy who has it all comes, gets his ass kicked on the mound, and that's his best day? Yeah. How? Yeah. See, I think that's fascinating. Yeah, me too. I think it's like almost a pendulum swing.

We've been pursuing comfort for so long that we've kind of like gone into this crazy direction. And, you know, in some ways, like I understand that. You're living in a cave or whatever and making fires and choking on smoke and dying when you're 25. like that doesn't sound all that awesome. So I can see why, you know, over the last several thousand years, we've pursued ways to make our lives simpler, right? So we don't have to walk 10 miles to get water every day and, you know, whatever else. However, I do think that we mistake, you know,

of sort of macro society's needs with our own individual needs. And we think, oh, everybody needs to be, you know, you're going to grow up and you're going to go and you're going to be this type of worker. and you're going to work for 40 years and you're going to retire. You know, those are things that, from a macro perspective, like from looking at a country or whatever, that makes all kinds of sense.

Because now you can be slotted. You're one, you're zero, you're three, or four. You can be, oh, you do this, you're here. You do this, you're here. You do this for here. We need X number of this kind of people. X number of this.

Let's adjust your school. So we have more people doing this. But that isn't, you know, that I don't feel like we were built for that. I don't feel like, not just physically, but like mentally. You know, and I think we're figuring that out now. And so he climbs up a rock and climbs up the mountain with a rock and says, that's the best freaking day in my life.

I think that's like, it's like surprising in a way, but it's kind of not surprising. Mm-hmm. You know? It's kind of, it's, I don't know, refreshing is a real word, but I loved hearing it. Yeah. It's like, loved it. That was like, I'll never forget when he said that. That's how much I loved it.

You know how much stupid shit people say that you couldn't remember. remember if somebody had a gun to your head. But I remember him saying that. That's why it's, it's so cool. Yeah. Must be validating for you. I don't know. I don't know about that. I just don't know how I really interpreted. All I, all I know is that I thought I was, well, I was, I was amazed. Yeah. I did not, I didn't anticipate it because like I said, rich, famous, jacked, attention. Everything what you think people want, he has. But what he wanted was what we did. You know, he's got all the, like, I look at her, he's got all the answers too.

Yeah. To me. So did he, did he come in this, like knowing that that was possible? Or he just, that just naturally happened. No, yeah, it just happened. He didn't know. He didn't anticipate that. But what I wanted, why I wanted to also share hunting with him is because, as you said,

he has all the answers. So I wanted to. Yeah, I remember this. Yeah, to me, I'm like at the very bottom end of human existence, basically, is this. like hunt kill run eat you know and he's like at the top end all the answers the brain the synapsis the neuroscience the whatever so i'm like you could somehow if we could come together and go on a hunt and you could use your brain to explain hunting and why why it's so powerful to my dumbass caveman brain and so i could help you get to this place where like here's here's what a hunter thinks

here's what we do. And then he could translate it to his world. Wow. That's why I've been fascinated to get him on a hunt. And the rock did that. It gave me a glimpse into like, yes, this is exactly what I wanted. Him at this, the lowest level of life, like where I live, sharing that with somebody so evolved.

Yeah. So I want that same thing for hunting. What about this Oregon hunt? Yeah, I know I've tried to get him on it a million times. Oh, you mean the El Cunt? Yeah. No, he's not going to go fuck up my once-in-lifetime El Cunt. Yeah, I remember he was like pointing out something on one of these animals when he was here and he was like talking about, yeah, like it can smell through this thing.

Yeah, I know, I know. Yeah, he knows everything. He does. Yeah. I mean, you could talk about, do you look at anything on any of these animals or like what, inside, you know, because he did all these experiments on mice. and die in their brain on blah, blah, blah, if this happened, what happened? So he gets it all. What does that mean when now you killed an animal and now you're a hunter?

And now how does it all tie together? Because he's got how this all ties together. I know how this part ties together with me surviving. I got to kill this thing and eat it. How does it all tie together? The bridge. Yeah. The bridge.

That's it. So how do we get that to come together? How we get? He wants to hunt. He loves he wants to hunt. He's been, he's dying to hunt. So we've got a bow. He shoots all the time. So now we're just got to make it happen. Oh, imagine him when you're breaking it down. Yeah, I know. That would just be, I would just watch 15 minutes of just that. Yeah. Oh, he would just, it would probably take for forever. Yeah. At the top of Fisca, he was looking at the monument. Do you remember this? Yeah. Oh, I know. And he, he knew every sea aquatic animal. Yeah. Yeah. And even they're like, origins and stuff. I know. It was wild. Wow. Yes, dude. It's unbelievable. And he's a homie. Like, right. Yeah. So cool. Well, no, he can talk where most scientists that talk and I'd be like,

what language is this? I don't even know what you're, but he can do it, dumb it down so much where even I can understand it. So when he talks about however he presents it, that's why he's so relatable. That's why he had 500 kids over at the of O on a Thursday night is because he can make all this. this he can just he just knows how to present it to the uneducated essentially or the lesser educated and it still makes sense so that's why i wanted once he was saying that we spent time together i'm like i have to get you on a hunt just so we can bridge this gap yeah over how we used to have to survive and what it means now yeah so i think there'll be a cool um

like for you like you might leave that experience like having more reverence for elk than maybe yeah i mean although you already do but just like those little details i didn't know this or that well just like what i learned about courting the pain cave it's like how many other little things do i think i know about but really i have no clue yeah and in hunting been doing it my whole life but i've never never had it broke down from a perspective like somebody like a narrow scientist like Huberman has never explained it to me. So maybe I don't know what I don't know. Wow.

See, I think the opposite almost. I think almost like carrying the rock, I'd be excited to see what he learns. Yeah. You know? Someone who knows everything has an answer is like goes on some hunt where he gets just plug it in AI for a few days and gets to analyze you.

Plug it in AI. Plug in the eye, yeah. What did Huberman learn on his first hunt? Yeah. James. Yeah. Hold up James. Oh,

that's what I was going to do earlier when we were talking about AI. I was going to tell it. tell me about Cam Haynes' Elkhunt this fall or like write a story about camp yeah i know it's always like the leaves were falling and the wind was whistling it's like very like detailed it's funny well because at least AI knows that is the detail right right it's a detail that makes a story so it's trying it is it can't it doesn't know what it smells like or can't that day that one day after a rain shower. Right.

You know, in the fall. You have to, but if we don't explain that, we have no advantage over AI. That's the thing. We have, it puts pressure on us to be better. And that's okay. I love it. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that's okay. It's like, but yeah, I don't know. It's, I think it's an exciting time. Yeah, just because we're, I don't know, being creative right now is, it's an exciting time for sure. I just want to see what we can come up with and either we sink or swim. I mean, I prefer to swim if we can.

He can't swim very well. No, I have to learn how to do that. Yeah, it's interesting, Cam. I try and I'm very hopeful. Like, I think all this stuff is really exciting and I think that so far, it's like you said, it's been nothing but, you know, positive for us. Yeah.

And like you're saying that this focus to, or this turn towards more authentic storytelling, is going to be more valuable. And we see that. You know, I think there's a reason people are drawing to Caleb's photos, myself included,

and, you know, hopefully the work that we do. And yeah, we definitely intend to keep, keep that going and keep going down that direction. But also on the human interest side,

like look for more dichotomies like yourself and Andrew or Courtney and whatever the opposite of her is. I don't know who that would be. Someone doesn't get off the couch. You know, like there's so many interesting, human tidbits out there that haven't begun to be explored I think and maybe because we've

been too busy you know looking over in this direction distracted yeah I don't know this is yeah you know I wish we could be in more places at once yeah but yeah like stories like what you're talking about and the people involved um are exciting as heck to me you know yeah usually what happens is I talk about all this shit and then it never comes up again and nothing never happens and then we're on to the next thing. We should make a pack, right now. Yeah, shake on it, Brian Lund. Yeah.

At first, I was a one-man wolf pack. Here's what we're going to do. We should, we're going to use this. Let's use this conversation. That's a hangover reference. I know you don't watch movies or know anything about anything. I don't watch comedy movies. Oh, I missed it.

He does. How did you miss that? I should have known. Oh, is that one that punch up Mike Tyson or something? I mean, he was in it. But Zach Gal Phanette. or whatever. He was a one-man wolf pack and then he wanted to be blood brothers with the other guys, blah, blah, blah. It's hilarious. Yeah. So then there was four in the pack. We're kind of different.

We could probably do a film on you and I being like so different. Yeah. Like I don't watch comedy movies. Or what was that channel you like? The, um, like I am who everybody wants to be and you're who like nobody wants to be. Yeah. Kind of like that. Struggling in the dark on myself, but nobody cares. Five people, five people at my finish line. No, because in truth, you're like what six four handsome have hair smart and then there's me which is a direct opposite of that and i'm slow you're fast not really you're strong i'm not uh you did 225 you benched it once and only because all the guys here hyped you up yeah just for reference we had a bench person competition yesterday with all the camera guys yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah he did not win we had big boy

over here 315 yeah you think good lift yeah 315 that's a good lift have you done that you know 315 yeah yeah think i did my max holy 335 wow you can do that though right i haven't right yet oh well i it looks like you can you're you're thick you're like i see those shoulders i'm like ah you can you can lift but didn't surprise me that you bench 315 you're jacked i think Just going back to regional stories, storytelling stuff, I think that part of it is just being inspired to get out and like find cool shit like on earth cool shit like bathe cool shit like bathe, like that's away at the cave and like see what falls out of it. And what you've been talking about like seriously has inspired me to think, okay, yeah. Like there's stories here that we got to get our act together. And because I don't want to be in my death. But I look back and say what other stories could I have told you know? That's where it starts. So it starts with what's a concept with story. Are we inspired to do something? Has to start there. Right. So then what we do with it is up to us. That reminds me of like when we were interviewing his dad for that last film, like there was a story about him like not reading. Yeah.

Yeah. Tell that story. Because that you talk about like you're never going to do that great thing if you don't have the passion for it, you know? And his dad had a story about that. Yeah. So dad, I mean, you know dad pretty well, right? Yeah. So obviously very successful. over, you know, well known in our industry. And like very, like extremely sharp. Smart.

Yeah. And but when he was, and I don't know, I'm going to paraphrase exact ages and stuff here generalized, but when he was like grade three or something, he couldn't read. And, you know, his mom brought him into the, you know, psychiatrist and said like, you know, something wrong with my kid. And he said, okay. You know, so took like a dad and gave him the IQ test or whatever. And dad was like off the charts.

And he was like, well, he should be reading. You know, what's he reading? Or what's he trying to read? And she said, oh, you know, whatever, giving him at school. And the doctor, you know, got dad aside and said, like, what are you interested in? And he said, man, I kind of like animals and hunting. And so outdoors. The outdoors, yeah.

Outdoors. And so his mom got him, you know, some hunting stuff, hunting stuff to read. And I forgot the name of that book. It was like. Oh, it would be so cool to know. Yeah, JD Hunter or some author. Yeah. Can't remember.

Jay something Hunter. Yeah. And dad read that book. Like no problem. Yeah. Within like, go through it. Yeah.

Within days he's just like reading the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Because he cared. And that, you know, that's just one moment in his life, but it changed the trajectory.

Like imagine if he didn't have that experience and couldn't find what he was passionate about until way later or whatever. Or it just was never an option. Yeah. Grew up in Manhattan. It just wasn't a thing that was even, he'd even knew about. Right.

And it makes you wonder how many people, like missed that crossroads somewhere. Yeah. And it might be a lot. You know, they're sitting doing stuff that they aren't inherently passionate about. And,

you know, they're average out of because they don't care. Yeah. No, I know. It's, I'm sure that happens more times than it doesn't.

You know, I mean, because I hear people say all the time, like, I don't know what I'm passionate about. I don't know. Like, how'd you know that

bow hunting was your thing? So it just tells me that there's a lot of people out there who, don't have that thing, you know, and maybe it's because of situations like that or where they grew up or their circumstance or, you know, the family dynamics. I don't know. But yeah, I think a lot of people are just have not like connected the dots. I'm like, oh, this is my thing. This is what I do. Right. And maybe the answer lies somewhere in that discomfort zone as well, like in another way.

Like so Hooverman, Scott of the answers comes here and, you know, learns that lifting a freaking and John Rock up a mountain brings him some level of happiness that he wasn't able to achieve before. So, yeah, I mean, it could be true for everybody. If it's true for him, it's true for us. Well, and maybe our films will awaken the beast. Let's do it. That's a good title. All right, guys.

Well, thank you. I know you got to get on the road. We were going to shoot for 130 hard out. It's 127. Did it damn good? Let's go. That's just an example of how good I am at this. Just so you know.

Yeah. You're, I mean, you are killing it. I was around it since day one and you've gotten darn good. Yeah, you're such a good listener, I think. Like, I mean, I mentioned it because we just did so many interviews with you. But like, you're only as good of a storyteller as you are a listener. And that's like something I think that's overlooked. But like you're getting so good with this podcasting, I think.

Thank you. Yeah. I still feel like I didn't know what the hell I'm doing, but I appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you guys. sitting down. I know we were busy and didn't really plan on this, but I think it was valuable and I really appreciate your time. A lot of respect for the work you do. I love working with you guys. So thank you, Brandon, Caleb. Appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Keep in.