Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 140 - Conner Mantz

Episode Date: July 8, 2025

Conner Mantz - an American long-distance runner, who specializes in the marathon. Conner ran collegiately for Brigham Young University and won the 2020 and 2021 NCAA Division I Cross Country Championships. He was also the winner of the 2024 U.S. Olympic Marathon Trials. Join us for a conversation about how Conner got into running, his training, the Olympic Trials and more!  Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow Conner: https://www.instagram.com/connermantz/  Thank you to our sponsors: Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off  LMNT: Visit https://drinklmnt.com/cam for a free sample pack with any purchase MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off and Free Shipping Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order Timestamps: 00:00:00  Conner’s Backstory with Running 00:05:04  Embracing for Hard Times 00:10:29  Tickets to Conner’s Race 00:12:44  The Benefit of a Sports Psychologist 00:15:44  The Olympic Trials & Running Weather 00:18:08  Conner’s Favorite Event 00:19:01  Gratitude During Running 00:20:48  Trail Running, Sponsorships, & Prize Money 00:23:12  What Stood Out About Western States to Conner 00:25:06  Altitude & Climbing as a Stimulus for Running 00:26:11  Training & Thinking Less to do More 00:35:15  Ad Break (Grizzly Coolers & Black Rifle Coffee) 00:37:59  Western States: Adam Peterman 00:40:12  Failure in Running 00:42:31  American Record in the Half-Marathon 00:47:15  Conner’s Motivation as a Kid to Run 00:51:18  Truett’s Running Success Over the Years 00:53:11  Conner’s First Marathon & Coach Ed Eyestone 00:57:21  Testing Blood Lactate Level, Training, & Recovery 01:02:50  Conner’s Mission in Ghana - Only Training for 30 Minutes 01:05:25  Lessons from Ghana & Training Less01:13:17  Having a Plan for Podcasts 01:14:50  QA: Challenges in Switching from College Running to Professional Running? 01:19:08  QA: Do You Have a Routine or Ritual Before Big Races?  01:22:40  Lessons from Losing Races 01:26:22  QA: How Do You Balance the Comradery of Running While Running to Win? 01:31:44  Outro Badass Raptor Giveaway: https://cameronhanes.com/pages/hennesseyraptor⁠ 

Every step I take I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel. Gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I move it's so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving My Blood so I am relentless. This is a Keep Hamering Collective with Connor Mance.

How you doing? Good. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. It's always a huge honor for me to have an Olympians sitting here in the studio. And just watched you today at a big track meet, Prefontein Classic. It was a tough one today, but it was a fun one to be at.

You got to, you get a run with a lot of Olympians when you're at these things. Yeah. enjoyable for me. Well, I mean, you're in the 27s today, right? 27 minutes? Yeah. 27. What was it?

2735. Okay. And to me, that seems like crazy fast. What was your goal? 26 is? My goal was to get under 27 minutes. So, yeah. Oh, okay.

26, anything. If it was 26.59. If it was 26.40, you know. Right. I was going to be the same amount of happy. But, yeah, some days you have it. And my coach afterward was just like, you know, some days you need something to kick you in the pants and humble you a little bit. Yeah.

And that's kind of what today was. Right. Well, I know. Those aren't fun lessons to learn sometimes, but like he said, necessary. Yeah. Is that, who's your coach? Ed Ice Stone. Oh, okay.

Yeah, yeah. I looked up your, I looked up some Wikipedia stats on you. Oh, nice. Yeah, so I could do a little homework while we were at the track of me. But the thing that stood out to me is, Truitt's got a lot of attention, my son, for he ran a half marathon, or no, a full marathon, he's 13. But then I showed him your half marathon time when you're 14.

You were so fast, dude. 11, half marathon? Yeah, yeah. At least it might have been 111 when I was 15. Oh, was it? I think it was 113 at 14. Well, I could be wrong about my own stats. I don't even know anymore.

Well, it's fast. And it had me thinking, so when did you know you're good at running? That's a complicated question because it's like, you know, in fifth grade, you're like one of the fastest ones in your elementary school class. You're like, all right, I'm going to make the Olympics one day. And then you're running against other kids at the middle school when they kind of start funneling in. And then you're like, oh, I'm not the best here, but I'm going to be. And then it was just this gradual process of, oh, I'm pretty good. but then I would find somebody who's better

and then I would try and beat them and then I don't know I feel like that's the that's the really that's pretty common thing is you just learn that there's somebody out there who's just better working harder or just more talented and so you got to take back what you learn something new and then improve

yeah it's uh yeah so you start yeah up in competition and just gets harder and harder but have you always loved running yeah yeah I love the the purity of the sport because it's one where um i don't know it's not like a skill it's not well it is a skill but it's i don't know sometimes it is like just work harder just just push a little bit more it's like you want to run faster today you can do it you know i have to i don't know position your foot a certain way and you know do other stuff like soccer or other sports right yeah we were talking

about that too because we're like kind of what we're we're not like at your level but any success we have is like in suffering. Like how bad can you suffer? Where if you look at like the 100 meter runners, we're thinking, man, are they ever suffering? It's over, right? And it's like we're thinking that feels more like just straight talent. Yes, you can work and you have to work hard,

but it's more talent like heavy than suffer heavy. Right, right. Would you think that? I do a little bit. I feel like with sprinters, you just, there isn't as much of, there's a lot of disconnect to think with like endurance runners and sprinters. I think we actually, as endurance runners, I feel like we relate more to like the throwers, like the power people, because they're at the track, you know, probably longer than anybody

else doing practicing form and practicing something for so long. Right. And it makes it almost more relatable to those guys than the. sprinters who are doing just what I'm doing just way faster and shorter yeah yeah and the and the throwers too they got a lift so they're probably lifting all the time oh yeah um when you're getting in miles they're lifting but yeah it just seems so it's then it's a matter of I mentioned this girl who I follow Tara Dower and she has a tattoo on her leg it says suffer well and it feels like that's endurance it's like how well can you suffer because something

people, they start to suffer, they're done. Right, right. But if you can suffer well. Yeah, I think you kind of got to embrace the pain a little bit. I worked with a sports psychologist in college, and I found out before every NCAA championship, I would just feel, well, not even before I'd just found in the NCAA championships, I would just feel way worse. And he's like, well, I had a really good season one year, and I was like, what do I'm,

What am I supposed to do? Like every race leading up to this point feels really easy and I win. And then I come to the NCAA championships and it feels 10 times harder. And he was like, well, just expect it to be really hard. Like, do you expect NCAAs to be easy like these other races? And I was like, yeah, of course, because these other ones feel great. Yeah. And then he's like, no, you got to expect it.

You expect practice to be hard every day. You expect it's going to take a lot of work. So you got to go into these. race is in expect they're going to be really difficult too. And is that what you do now? Yeah. Yeah, I have to tell myself, you know, no matter what has happened in the past where I felt really good at certain points, there's going to be a point in this race where it's going to get

really tough and I just got to embrace it and just work on little things, whether it's just cues, whether it's just like working on being grateful and the gratitude I have toward my family and my coaches and my training partners. or something completely irrelevant. That has nothing to do with running, but I just have to set out a plan beforehand. Okay. And I mean, did you think about that stuff today?

Today, yeah. Yeah, so today I got like a sideache. I've never had a side ache in a race before. It was kind of an odd experience for me. And I got about 10Ks, 25 laps on a track. I got to about 10 laps. I'm on pace for what I want to run, but then I get this really bad side stitch. And I'm like, oh, I'm not running well.

Like I'm in last place. I'm pretty far back from even second to last. Well, I might have been right with second to last, but we're pretty far back from anybody up front. And I'm on pace to still run under 27 minutes, but I start running really slow. I start running. I needed to run 64.8 seconds per lap,

and I was running like 70 seconds per lap for a couple laps. Whoa. And that's just so hard. far off. And it's actually closer to my marathon pace than my half marathon pace to 10k pay. It was just just completely different. Not great. But then I just heard the crowd and it helps being the only American in the race and the only one a lot of people are familiar with who don't follow this, who are like casual fans of the sport. And so I was just hearing my name just come on, Connor. Like you can catch them, you can catch them.

Yeah. It helped me, so I decided, okay, I'm just going to, you know, I'm going to get a few more laps in because I was thinking about just dropping out and just, you know, hanging my head on this and going on to the next thing. But hearing people just cheer me on, I'm like, they came to watch me race. Yeah. Whether they did or didn't, I'm telling myself they did. Yeah.

And I was like, I got to make it a few laps. And eventually that side stitch subsided. Mm-hmm. And I pushed a little bit more. I was able to pass a few people and still around a decent time. Yeah. I mean, I thought you picked it up towards the last mile. Yeah.

My last mile was probably, it was probably close to on pace for what I needed to do. It looked good then. Oh, thanks. Yeah. It was a lot of fun that last mile. But yeah, it was just hearing those cheers. I was like, okay, I can't give up now. And someone's the side stitch subsided.

I was able to speed up a little bit. And I didn't speed up as much as I wanted to, but part of that was like, I can see my goal was so far out of sight. So it was like, all right, how much today do I want to suffer? And I wasn't willing to suffer as much that I probably should have been. Yeah. It's so hard. It is.

And it's like, then when you look back, like now, you're probably thinking I could have suffered more. Exactly, exactly. But why in that moment, do we question ourselves or we consider dropping or is the mental part of it? Because your body can do it. Yes. Your body's done it.

Yes. It's convincing your body to do it. Right, right. But it's like how hard do you want to hurt today? And I think today it was just hard to see that I was so far off my goal. Yeah. That the discouragement. I mean, it's that it's that mental strength you need.

and it's easy to have it when things are going right for you. If you're hitting, you know, in running, if you're hitting perfect splits and you're on pace to do something amazing and things are clicking off, you can push. If you're at the front of the race, you can push, but it's the people that really inspire me are the people on the back that are able to kick it in a little bit more at the end. And especially when there's no one around them.

They have no one to catch, but they're just pushing to the line. And I'm like, that's a day. different level of, I don't know, either they didn't suffer enough in the beginning or that's a different level of being willing to suffer when there's nothing, nothing coming your way. Yeah. No, I, well, we got there. So just to kind of validate your point, I heard a lot of people yell on, let's go, Connor, you know, and you can do it. But we were like hustling to get over there. And so this is just a funny story. I'll also got a shout out Ben Blankenship. But We get over there and I had bought tickets and their tickets are expensive today like for this meet

because there's a one day meet a bunch of elites, you know, a bunch of great events and day after 4th of July. And so I'm like, God, dang, these tickets, but we want to, I love going to the track meet. So I bought like three tickets or like 750 bucks or something like that for me, Trude and Alicia. We get over there. I bought them through Stubhub. Get over there. Tickets.

Nope. No tickets. They're gone. they're unavailable. I'm like, what? So do you want a refund? But we're standing in front of Hayward. Do I want a refund?

Your race is getting ready to start. So we go to the ticket counter and I'm watching you guys up on the screen there. We're outside. And she says, oh, yeah, we go through Ticketmaster and, you know, these resell whatever. I guess your ticket. So she looked it up and it's like they'd been resold a million times these tickets. Anyway, we had no tickets. So I'm like, well, I guess.

will be like all the scrubs and be watching on TV today. And so like, but I'm like, oh, man, I just saw Ben yesterday at the at the Butte But 10K. And so I called him and I said, hey, I said, dude, listen, I had three tickets. Apparently they're gone. I don't know. I said, I hate to ask, but do you know where I can get any tickets? And he's like, I'll call you back in two minutes. So actually the president of Tracktown USA brought us tickets. Oh, no way. And we got in there to watch, because you wanted to watch you, you started 11. 10 and got in there and was able to see you race. But the point is, it's like, yeah, people do come to watch you, you know.

And I know when I've been in position, I'm feeling, you know, I'm not having a good time or whatever. Then I have to, I think about, am I letting people down that believe in me? And so that's, that is a big part of it. Yeah. And it's a super powerful way to dig deep. Yeah. Do you still use a sports psychologist now? I do, but I didn't, I haven't since the Boston Marathon.

I probably should. Yeah. Should be continuing to use him. It was nice when I was at BYU, you know, the school's paying for it. Okay, yeah. But because it's sports psychology, you know, they don't do, can't get your insurance to pay for it. Oh, right. Yeah. But I know it's good for me.

I know I'll get like, you know, kickbacks in the end because when you run fast, you make more money. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it's worth it. It's just an investment. It's an investment. It's, yeah, I was curious. I've had a lot of other athletes on it. I've never, I keep asking, I have, I keep thinking once it's over, I'm like, God, why don't I ever ask what mental exercises these guys are doing from fighters to runners to

whatever? But yeah, I was super curious about how useful that is because as we're talking about with that suffering and that just getting through tough times, there's got to be tricks to do it. Oh, absolutely. And for me, I've used like, a lot of different things in different races. Like for the Olympic trials marathon, I'd had some really, I'd had some nasty injuries

heading into that race or maybe not nasty injuries, one nasty injury and it just kind of was a huge setback. And I was really frustrated. I was like, man, this, like, of course, you know, 10 weeks or 12 weeks before the Olympic trials, I'm injured. Like what was like any other time I'd be fine to be in true, but not this time But then I was working with the sports psychologist and I was I was able to be healthy by race day

I just knew I wasn't 100% I was training like I was swimming a lot I was biking a lot And then the sports psychologists were heading into race Like race week and he's like all right I want you to focus on gratitude toward this race and He's like you got to write down he's like write down 26 names heading into the race. And then every mile just think of one person when it gets hard. I didn't go through and do that with every mile.

But there were five miles in the race where it got pretty tough. And I was like, all right, this one's for my dad. He got me into running. He's just a huge inspiration for me. Next one was for my mom. She just sacrificed a lot. She was a stay-at-home mom that really just focused on her kids. And then it was my brother who inspired me.

sister, my other brother. And then I just kind of kept going. And then throughout the race, I'd see some friends who had flown out to watch me. And I was like, all right, this mile is for those guys. And then the last mile, I was like, I kept telling myself, last mile would be for my wife. Okay. And during the last mile, I was just in so much pain. I wasn't even thinking about anything. But I did get a see her right at the finish line. So I was like, okay, the last mile was still for her. But not as intentional. Not as intentional. Yeah. Yeah. And you, you won that. right that was i did yeah the olympic trials yeah you where was that race it was in orlando florida oh okay was it warm that day it was pretty toasty yeah there was a little bit of controversy because

they they announced it in orlando and then uh they were like we're gonna put it at noon in orlando and we're like wait we're supposed to run fast and prep for paris like yeah they're not gonna run us at noon in paris by we're running at noon here and then they're like oh we'll compromise make it 10 a m and it's like well that's not much better but it's better we'll take it Yeah. I don't know why they still wanted 10 a.m. I've heard so many different people be like, well, it was because of TV. And then they're like, no, they could choose any time for TV.

And it was like, well, it was sponsorships. And it was like the sponsorships all said they were fine. And I don't know why they didn't do it at 7 a.m. Yeah, no, that makes it tough for sure. Because then it's like you're wondering how, you know, you'd say, well, he's affecting everybody. But people, you might have taken out your best runner that maybe doesn't, perform well in heat. Right.

You know what I mean? Right. So it's, yeah, I know when they, I think Eugene's a good spot for the marathon. They had it here one time. And it's like early in the morning, like seven a.m. start or eight a.m. starts, usually money. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the weather,

I was actually kind of disappointed. They didn't run our 10k at 8 a.m. Yeah. I went out and did a little jog at about, it was like 545 this morning. Yeah. Just to kind of like get the loose, get the legs all loosened up. And I couldn't,

believe like I was like this weather is perfect running weather there was no wind it's like 48 49 degrees would have been great and it's quiet as can be like this yeah this is a nice time to run yeah they uh they changed one time I can't remember what even maybe it's a 1500 but it could have been for the world championships but it was super hot and they had it and then they moved it yeah earlier right was that was that was that the world championships it was the I think it was the Olympic trials in 2021 okay yeah it was like I think it was record breaking. I think it was like 115. Yeah, hot as heck.

Yeah. I was in the 5K that day and they moved it. They moved the 5K really early in the morning. Yeah. I think they moved the 15 in the evening. Okay. That's what it was. Yeah, and it was just, oh, it was so toasty.

Yeah, yeah. I remember, well, we didn't have that this time. It's almost perfect, but you're right. The morning would have been ideal. Oh, yeah. What's your favorite event? Is it the marathon? Because you've done a lot of different events now.

Yeah. I'm never really sure. You know, it's always like the next race. Every race is a challenge, and I think that's what excites me. The marathons, as far as, like, the U.S. goes, is probably my best event. But the half marathon is really fun. 10K on the road is fun. Honestly, 10K on the track, what I did today might be my least favorite event.

And I think every other event I like about the same. For the 10K on the track, it's like 25 laps. This is ridiculous. Why don't we do this on the track? the road or on a cross-country course or trail. Yeah, no, I was just curious because you're, I mean, you're, you've had success at everything, but I was wondering what your favor was. Yeah, I just, I like racing. It's the, it's, it's, it's competing. Yeah, the competition. Yeah. Even if it's an event I'm not that good at, I just

want to compete. Yeah, you know, your story about gratitude and like thinking of family is, this is, I don't know if I've ever mentioned it on here, but, um, my dad, He died today in 2010, July 5th. Yeah, so I mean, it's like I got that right there. But like we, on the Butte to beaut, he lived right over on this kind of on the course. And every year for both the beaut to boot 10K and the Eugene Marathon, he would go out to stand by Dairy Mart. And I would come and the course comes right by and I'd see him there with his dogs and my stepmom. And that was like, so I still running by yesterday, I'm like,

oh man it's still hard you know because i get i was so used to see my dad every time for years because i've run you know lived i've born and raised here and it's still hard running by that 15 years later yeah that one spot just thinking about you know that's where my dad always was and it's uh you know it's like you go through and then what's nuts is i get past that part and then i'm like really suffering later and you got to think about something else. Yeah. Yeah. So it's you can get little searches and it's man, it'd be nice if we could be gracious and

be able to push pain to the to the side and and just focus on how much we have to be thankful for all the time when it gets hard. Right. But it's tough. It is. It's tough to do that. Yeah. And it's tough to do that in long spurts too. I mean, it's easier to be like, all right, this is for you know someone and then you go push for 20 seconds but to go and push for you know miles yeah that that could be pretty tough that's yeah that is do you uh um do you run trails much not not as much as i'd like

yeah um i tried i'll do like you know they're they're trails but they're not real trails you know they're they're more like um like dirt roads fire service roads or stuff like that what was that 20k championship you won was that a trail that wasn't a trail oh okay Yeah, that was on a bunch of streets in New Haven. Oh. Still pretty fun, though. Yeah, yeah. Well, you won.

Yeah, yeah. If you like to compete and win, there you go. Oh, yeah. I do want to do, I do think I'll get into trails. I mean, watching Western States, Western States this year is pretty exciting. I don't think I'll do it while I'm, like, at the top of my career. But, you know, maybe in 12 years or 13 years when I'm kind of past the point of competing in marathons, I'd like to get into it.

Yeah. No, I bet you'd do good. It's, yeah, because Ultra is a little bit behind on the professionalism part, but Man Western, they do a good job. That live stream gets everybody in. There should be sponsorship money. I wish they, I think the next level is to pay the runners, you know, as far as for winning or, you know, top something.

Yeah, I've heard there's like no prize money for it. There's no prize money. Yeah. So it's, it's, there's one, you know, It seems like Ultra is sort of in a transition from the dirt bag. People just love the mountains. Love to run. It's not really about like sponsors and things like that.

And then I do like that because I think runners have to work so hard. You know what I mean? You got 100 mile weeks. Yeah. It's tough. It is. It is. And so they should be compensated.

If you want the competition to include. You need to make it where people can make a living running and there's not a ton of ultra owners that can make a living the big stars. Yes, of course But yeah, it's kind of in a weird transition. Right and it's hard when it's just sponsorships because you know if you have a breakout race Maybe the sponsors don't come crawling because they're like oh, it's just a one-time thing. Yeah, but like if there's good prize money you have a breakout race and then you're still getting paid so you can You know kind of live off that maybe for a few months and really trying to dial and training and then keep it up yeah no i know it's a what what stood out for you about western like what um oh man i think well a few things one it's just it was so hot and they were running like decently fast and i mean i just saw pictures and videos and i watched the last uh watched the last

mile with a guy i run with him christian allen he's a trail runner okay um he's he runs professionally for doing trails with nike but he does a lot of like up-hill have the big biose you have the big biol that level like the crazy hair the chicken hair is what my wife calls it mustache yeah I just watched last night I watched him because he does a Golden Trail series too yeah I watched an episode

and he was featured he's a good guy he's awesome after USA's back in 23 the U.S. championship's on the track I was pretty disappointed and I was talking it over with my coach and he's like look just take a week just do miles

like we're not going to do any workouts I want you to just take a step back and kind of enjoy running again. And I reached out to Christian, and I was like, hey, like, I want to do a trail run with you. Like, let's just go, like, on your easy day, because I know your hard days are hard. And I did this trail run with him, and I was sore for a week. Like, I was not sore at all after the U.S. championship 5 and 10K, but we did like 3,000 feet of climbing in like two or three miles. and my quads, my hamstrings, like, I mean, a lot of that was from the way down. Right.

It was beautiful, but like I could, I don't know, at the time I was also trying to sleep in an altitude tent and I could not get in and out of that tent. It was like, me and my wife were in a mattress on the floor in this tent, and I'm like struggling to like crawl out of it for like five or six days. And it was, it was terrible, but it was so much fun. Yeah. Well, I wonder, so is that a stimulus that you would add that your body would adapt to that would make you better even on the track? I don't know.

I think it would, but I would have to take something else out to like start really adding it in. Right. Yeah. There's definitely some like benefits to it because like you strengthen your ankle mobility, you strengthen your feet. And your quads and hamstrings are going to get. get some different stimulus. It's going to be really good for, I don't know, I was thinking like speed things, but I don't know if it'll fit. It'll help me in a marathon because we do, we work out pretty hard in our group. And so like our Monday, Wednesday, Fridays, we go pretty easy.

And it's just easy miles on the road. So those are the times I would probably be able to go and do trail runs, but when I'm so tired, it's like, I just want to find the flattest, easiest place to run and get it over with. I understand that. Yeah. Do you ever talk about your training? I mean, I know you have video, but like, do you ever talk about, like, what's your weekly mileage and yeah, yeah, I post it all on Strava. I'm pretty open. Okay. Yeah. Some people are like Strava dark or whatever. But like, how many miles week are you getting? So I got up to, for the Boston Marathon, up to 129. For this like 10K, I got up to 126, I think. Okay. And that's about the, where do you try to get? That's about the max. Yeah. I think I'll have to talk it over with my coach. I'd like to

get a little higher for, I'm running the Chicago Marathon in a few months. And I'd like to get it a little higher before then, but it's, it's hard. Yeah. Like you come home after a 20, 20 mile day or more than 20 miles and you're like, I just, I'm not going to do anything. And Yeah. And then it's like, oh, wait, like there's other responsibilities like cooking and cleaning and, you know, being just a good husband. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, okay, I can do those. But. Right. It's fun. I just need to figure stuff out. Yeah. I mean, do you ever think about like, yeah, because you do have other responsibilities and it's important being a human just like being a husband being like what, but do you

ever think about what about the people is there people who just have just running and And it's just like they don't care about anything else, the most selfish type, whatever, and what if they're training all the time? Yeah, I think about that, but then I also think, like, is that really a life I wanna live? Right.

Like, am I gonna be happy there? And also, would all that training, would maybe a relationship help that in some, help your performance in some other way? Because you said when it gets tough, you have to think about people you care about in life. If somebody was like all wrapped up in themselves, they wouldn't have that.

Right. that driver, you know. Oh, absolutely. I over. I mean, runners seems like we overthink, or I don't know. I overthink a lot of things. I do as well. That's actually something.

I was reading a sports psychology book that my sports psychologist had recommended like years ago and I've been taking like a little, I'm so early in the book. Yeah. But one of the things was just like think less. Like the more you use your front of lobe, the more likely you're going to choke in a competition. or a it was actually more focused on like people taking the LSAT but it was the more you you're

like actively thinking on things you're going to um you might mess up yeah because you're overthinking it you're overdoing it um and when you're just i don't know when i just run to run and i'm not thinking too hard then i i seem to do better how do you not think too hard i know it's that i don't I don't know if I have the ability to control that. Right, right. Because if you think, I'm not thinking about that. Yeah. You're obviously thinking about it.

Right. I think a better way to say it is not worry. Right. Yeah, because I guess we're always thinking. It's not productive, maybe. Right, right. Yeah. Or maybe worrying about like what's going to happen.

Am I worried about like all the what ifs that I can't control? Like, what if the guy next to me just start? it's running way faster than I want to go and then I feel this need to go with him. Or what if my shoelace comes in tide or what if, you know, I drop water on my shoe and I get blisters because there's water sloshing in my feet, you know? Right. You start wondering about all those, I think that's when you're going to slow down and not do as well. You know, I don't know.

We love polarizing figures, but you talked about Western States and like one of the runners there was David Roach. And I listened to, he ended up dropping, but I ended up, I listened to his podcast. He's talking about like, you talk about the mental stuff there. I mean, he was thinking he was, he thought he was like suffering so bad or hurting so bad. He might die. Oh, wow. And then he's just like, I can't leave my kids without a dad. And I'm like, that's not going to help your performance.

No, no, that's like worry and anxiety to max. Yeah. Yeah. So obviously he didn't bode well in the race and dropped at Forest Hill. But after, you know, being way up there. But yeah, that's like that's like the extreme example of how not to think during a race, it seems like. Right. But it's a yeah, that was kind of a lot of discussion on that too because he had made a big video series about, you know,

shocking the world and going out there and winning and all that and, you know, it didn't work out. But it's respectable to call your shock. It is. It is. It's like, yeah, I think, you know, it was weird because then he's, he's complaining about the haters or the criticism, but it's like, it's hard because you, when you call your shot, you make this big thing, you get people to pay attention. Oh, yeah. That's what you wanted, right? You want it. You asked for this. So you can't complain if it, but yeah, it's so hard. It's just hard. Right, right.

Because even, like today you said, you thought about maybe stepping off the track. Right. And it's just like what the mind and body goes through pushing that hard? I don't know. It's really easy to criticize from the sidelines. It is. But when you're out there doing it. Right.

But in a way, like, we always want to be the one that people are looking at. Like, you want to be the favorite. You want, like, and the favorite. I mean, and this is, you know, a little bit different aspect, but the favorite is always going to be the one that gets the most criticism. Right. We'll usually be. Yeah.

And so, yeah, it is, if that's something you want, like, if you're going to go out and call your shot, you have to be ready to accept all the consequences that come with that. And good and bad and, I don't know, but we all want to be the best. Yeah. And that's, I know it is hard because, yeah, just like your video, series. Did you have a road to somewhere? My training partner put one out. It was like a road to Paris.

Okay, yeah. And yeah, the point is you're sharing, of course you're sharing what you love. It's fun. It's content. Probably helps with the sponsors. And we want people to watch it. Yeah. We look at the views, right?

Did we do a good job on this? Do people like it? Do they like me? Am I being, you know, whatever? But yeah, then when it doesn't go well, it's rough. It is rough. And, yeah, my training party was putting that out. And I feel bad he's done it for his last three marathons.

And the start of his builds, he just looks terrible. Is that Clayton? It's Clayton, yeah. And so we'll be working out together and he'll have his film guy, Andrew Storor is there. And it's like, I'll be having, you know, some of the best workouts in my life. And Clayton will be having some of the worst. And you can just tell he's just frustrated by it. but it's also like, dude, this is, you want to be looked at.

And every time he's raced really well at the marathon, which I don't always understand. I'm always like, wait, man, like, how was three months ago you couldn't run a five-minute pace? Now you're running a 450 pace for 26 miles. But, you know, everybody has a different way of getting to it. Yeah. He's got, he found something that works, right? Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's, yeah, I remember when Truit was doing his pull-up thing, it was getting

really hard. And I'm like, do you think this is going to be easy? This is what you wanted. Yeah. This is what you wanted. This is when it matters. And it's like,

I think you mentioned earlier too is sometimes, or maybe your psychologist mentioned, but it's going to hurt. You have to be okay and be ready for, think about that part too. Because I think we always, we kind of, even when I think about like that big long race I just did,

I'm not thinking about when I was miserable. I'm thinking about the good things, the finish, the cool photos, the video, and, you know, all the, whatever. I don't, I'm not thinking about when I didn't feel like I could take a step. Right. So we kind of forget that stuff. And then when the race happens, we're like, what, oh, I forgot about this part. Yeah.

But, yeah. That was kind of how I felt today. It was like all, like I've, I've only had good races this year so far. And so today it was like, oh, this race isn't going too hot. Wait a sec. I forgot what to do when this happens. It's been close to a year since I've had like a race that I would consider a bad race or just over a year. So it was like, oh man, like I got to go through these mental gymnastics to get to the finish now.

And I'm happy I did because, you know, once you drop out in a race, it can be really hard the next one. We skipped over. How did Christian do? He didn't do Western States. Oh, I just watched it with him. Oh, I see. Okay, okay. Yeah, I didn't remember seeing his name.

But yeah, when you mentioned that, I was like, God, did I, yeah, anyway. Okay, so you guys were watching it. Yeah, we were watching it together. He's got a running store, right? Yeah. He owns one or something? Yeah, it was like his in-laws started it, and I think he, like, is slowly buying it from them. Oh, okay, okay.

That's cool. What town's that in? It's in Orem, Utah. What's it called? Runner's Corner. Oh, sweet. Yeah. Yeah, I love.

runners. But yeah, so I was thinking about that too, because as we mentioned, there's some high profile drops at Western States, but one that stood out that didn't was, God, he won it. He won it. Adam Peterman. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And he basically ended up walking it in 23 hours. I didn't realize he was that far back. 23 something, dude. And he was, I think he was sort of competing at the beginning, a past champion. Yeah. Right. So he's proven himself.

So if anybody was going to drop, it seemed like it could be him. He's just having a bad day. He's, hey, he's won this thing before. And he ended up, I think his fiance, her girlfriend or wife, I can't remember which one. She beat him. Oh, I didn't know that. She was in the race. And he still finished.

That's awesome. To me, that is like, that's incredible because think of the lessons he learned that day. just like what you learned today about, hey, some days it's going to be terrible, but I'm going to finish this off. And I think about that, and it's like, it's hard not to respect that effort. It's easy to be, when things are going good, it's easy to be like, hey, look at me. Aren't I awesome? But what happens when they're not going good?

Right. And those are the days you have to be the most proud of. Right. Yeah. Just showing your heart. Yeah. I mean, that's what it is. it's like yeah so i i liked i liked that story for sure um but yeah it's hard to i don't know man

those races are tough those races are tough you know it it is um it it would be really tough like i can imagine i know what it feels like when a marathon goes south but those trail races like ultra trail races i can't even imagine i don't know i mean you're everything like if you have a failure on a track in front of the stadium. Yeah, that's true. It's different. I mean, we're out there by ourselves, like walking. That's true.

And yeah, we feel sorry for ourselves and it really sucks, but I don't know, being on a track, it's just so like, it's nowhere to hide. Yeah, yeah, you kind of feel naked in a way when you're running bad. I mean, I was, yeah, because I watched, there's some other, you know, events today where people were way back. Yeah. And I was like, man, that would be. tough.

Yeah, there was, I don't want to really give his name too much of a shout out because I don't want to be like, oh, look at this guy, but he did terrible. But there was one of the guys in the international mile who I'm, you know, a big fan of and a friend with. And it just was like, I don't know if he fell or something at the start. But he was, he's probably the most consistent miler in the U.S. And he was nowhere, maybe most consistent. That's not Jared Neguse or Cole Walker.

Right. Yeah. he always seems to like have a really good race and like today was like he was just off the back with a lap in and it was just really tough to see but he finished it he didn't he didn't step off he didn't just say you know what I'm done with this and that was cool and he went to the University of Oregon as well okay so those you know the sport will know who he is but yeah it was it was cool to see him you know gut it out and finish yeah I was I had uh Shelby hulahan on here too and it's like this was a tough event last event last event of the day, the 1500, you got Faith out there who Faith is on another level right now. And Shelby was way back, but still ran 402, which isn't a terrible time. No, that's, it's crazy. It didn't look great with Faith running at 348, you know, but yeah, some days that's just the way it goes, I guess.

Yeah, yeah. And on the track, you definitely feel more embarrassed. I guess in the marathon, it's nice because you see everybody only sees you like once or twice, but on the track. everybody sees you yeah oh okay that reminds me so the 59 minute half marathon right yeah american record how's that that was uh that was great it was like it was it was such a like confidence boost because i felt like um and we talked about this earlier how i got into running was running these half marathons yeah and i ran some pretty fast ones as a kid yeah and so it was like

that was always the American record I really wanted to target. Oh, okay. Was it? Yeah. So to be, that wanted to be my first national record. And hopefully there'll be many more. Yeah. That wanted to be my first of many, yeah. It was pretty special. Now, at the end, I did get a little, somebody did out lean me right at the line and kind of put his arm out. But I saw that. That was tight. It was tight. There was some controversy with that. There was a lot of controversy with that. I, I wasn't too mad at the time because I was like, I got the record and that was what I was going for today. And then somebody, some news article texted me or some magazine text me and they're like, hey, how does it feel to miss $22,000 by 0.01 seconds? And I was like, I didn't realize it was anywhere close to that.

That's what's the difference between first and second? That was the difference. Oh, well, because they had a, I think there was like a $15,000 bonus if you broke the course record. Oh. And I didn't know about that. And so I just get this text as I'm like celebrating with some, some friends. And I was like, I was like, oh, like my heart just like sank. Because I'm like. Because didn't he kind of like, yeah, he kind of leaned in. He kind of leaned. Well, we were running down the stretch toward the finish line. And they had a really like the tape that people were holding was pretty short. And so he kind of like ran to the side to just kind of cut me off a

little bit and then I was going to run into the personal momentum and he just kind of cut me off just a little bit like right now but a thousand's you said a thousandths of a second I thought or a hundred hundred sorry yeah I mean oh maybe I miss her but doesn't take much much of a leaner to block you to to make that time yeah right right but in the end I was just more upset with myself because I was like I finished that race having more in the tank did you I did and really and it was it was a little because I was like, I'm going to get this record. And then I was like, I see the finish line. I see the clock taking.

Like, I know I'm going to get this record. Instead of being like, I just need to beat these people. I need to compete. I need to push to the line. To win. Yeah. And I've learned that lesson probably 50 times in my life. Well, wait.

So after that, though, did you win a race coming around the corner and passing somebody at the end? I did. Just, it was on Memorial Day, actually. Yeah. So you closed out good there, right? Right. Yeah. Right.

And I was thinking about it during that race, it was like, I need to finish the line. And he did, yeah. Who'd you pass there? His name is Daniel Abeño. Right. And he was a silver medalist at the World Championships in 2023. He's one of the better canyons at the 10K distance. He's now kind of moving to the marathon, so it wasn't there today.

Unfortunately, because I think if he was in the race, I would have had more confidence. Yeah. Yeah, but he, it's funny, the guy who beat me at the Houston half was also in that race. Today or that race on Memorial Day? On that race in Memorial Day. And so when I was kind of struggling in that race, I'd look back and I'd see him like three seconds behind me. And I was like, no, I have to go. I have to feed this guy today.

Yeah, whatever it takes. Whatever it takes. I remember that, that video is pretty sick where you're coming around that turn. And it's like you just turned it on. Oh, well, thank you. man, it was, competition is so fun to watch. Well, it's fun to win as the runner, but to watch people just give all they got.

Yeah. Something beautiful about it. Oh, absolutely. And there's something different when you're, when you're neck and neck for a first place. You're able to just dig so much more because no matter what the prize is, it's like, this is for first place.

Yeah. If there's nothing, just bragging rights. I mean, we've all done it, whether it's, you know, fantasy football. or whatnot. Like, everyone's competitive for that first place spot. Yeah, no. I mean, people, yeah, people ask about the race and you say your time or whatever,

then it's just like, did you win? Yeah, exactly. That's always, that's the big part of it. It is. Did you win? Yeah. When you did those half marathons as a kid, was that, did you want to or were your parents encouraging you or was that just all you?

I wanted to. And the reason. being is um you know you like you you do bluff to bluff with you do bluff to bluff with your kids growing up yeah and um when i was i think it was like nine years old my dad and my older brother ran a half marathon together and as um you know the son of a great man you know every kid who has a great father wants to spend time with their father and it was like i thought that was the coolest thing because that was what my dad did and that was what my brother did yeah i really looked up to you want to be like them right right and I was just like man I want to I want to run a half marathon and my brother was 11 when he

did it with my dad and my dad was like well you know there's rumors it'll stunt your growth if you start too young so let's let's wait until you're 12 um and the race like that I was going to do also had like a the next year they had like an age stipulation so he had to be over 12 so I was like okay and then when I was 12 my parents signed me up for one and it was just about like I wanted to run it fast, but it was really just making, like, I wanted to finish it for my own pride. And then, I finished it. And then the next, like, not long after, I was like, now I have to do a marathon. Because my dad, by that point, had gotten into marathons. Okay. And my parents are like, no, like, everyone says it's not good for a young kid to do marathons. So you can just keep running

some halves. And like, all right, but I'm going to get faster. Yeah, and you did. And I did. And it's worked out very well. You got to be the fastest in the country. That's true. But yeah, it was just all started with just wanting to be like my dad. And the only time he really pushed me was just saying, if I pay this, you know, $80 entry fee, you have to tell me you're going to train. Yeah.

And that training was, you know, four runs a week and, you know, three to five miles each time. Okay. So it wasn't like real training. It was kind of like, you got to go out and run. Yeah. Show you care. Right, right.

If you can spend this money on it. Yeah. Well, see, we have, instead of, like, was it both your parents worried about it because stunt your growth? I think they both were, but they really, they just didn't have the information. Oh, right. Yeah, because we blame my wife on Truit not running an ultra when he was 13 because I wanted him to. And she said, no, it's not good for him.

It's going to stun his growth or it's bad for his bones or whatever. whatever. So he didn't run it. And now we still go back because he ran the Eugene half or not full at 13. And he did pretty good. Like not your level good, but he did 3.30 for the full. And the next weekend was this ultra that I run up by Corvallis is called McDonald Forest. I'm like, oh, he should go do this. I can get you in. 13 years old to do an ultra, it'd be sick. And then mom screwed it up, being too worried about stuff. But, uh, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think that's true. I don't think it does. I don't think there's any science to it.

Because they said that about lifting weights too for kids. Yeah, well, that's what I heard after was like, oh, I eventually heard, yeah, running won't stunt your growth, but lifting will. So is it not you with lifting either? I don't think so. Yeah. I don't think so. I mean, I did, I started my boys 14 and they stuck with it now. But yeah, I don't know. You always hear stuff like that and you don't know. But, yeah, The difference is, Truitt didn't want to do any of that running, but I made him. Oh, really? Okay. Okay. So your wife was on his side. Pretty much. It's like dad was making the kids do stuff they don't want to do.

It's basically the, that's pretty much their entire childhood. Oh, really? Yeah. If they don't learn discomfort at a young age, when are they going to learn it? It's discipline. Sometimes you had in life, you do what you don't want to do sometimes. That's how it works, right? But yeah, but now, like, you're a huge inspiration to Truit. Like, he has big running goals. And it's like, you know, we talk about you and your training and your success and then

watching you today. It's like, yeah, you inspire a lot of people and my family, he included. Well, thank you. I mean, it's fun to see Truit, you know, jump in this sport and have so much success, especially going from, you know, I mean, there's really not much crossover when it comes to pull ups and running a marathon. No, no. And we were talking about it. We were going to the race yesterday. And like we drove by at Lane Community College over there. He was, he's all conference as a freshman. And then he,

then he wanted to get big because he didn't like being a skinny runner. And that was like the, well, his sophomore year was the best he was running. And then I'm like, did you, because he made stayed as the first, first two years in high school. And I said, well, what, what about your junior senior year? I couldn't even remember. Right. I was probably so mad at him, but I blocked it out. But he's like, he didn't even make varsity. Oh, no. Junior and senior because he just didn't care.

And that's the difference in running. It's like you can't make somebody love it. No, no, you can't. If you don't love it, it's not going to happen. Right. And if you don't, and now, now he loves it. But I saw he had talent back then and I was, it's like drove me crazy that he didn't want to pursue it. And I remember telling him,

like, hey, if you get your act together, you could run in college. And he's like, I don't want to run for four more years. Oh, man. So I had no, how do you talk to me? Yeah, you're like free school? And he's like, I'll figure that out. Yeah. Yeah.

But now it's the other way. Now he loves it. And you're like, his Michael Jordan. Oh, that's nice. That's nice to say. It's fun. So what was your first marathon? So my first marathon, it was, I was already professional at,

by that point. So it was 13 years after. So from the point of being born to running a half was less time than my first half to my first ball. How come with big gap because of college and college? So I served a mission for my church, the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And so that was two years. And then I went to college and it took me four and a half years to finish running in college. And then I had one more semester. So I was still doing track stuff. stuff then and so I was like I was yeah it was 25 by the time I ran my first marathon wow okay yeah so just yeah just college and those aren't the events college runners do right right and high school for sure oh yeah and and that was something like I had I've been told was you know if you're gonna run

if you're gonna run in high school like don't do a marathon then and so I was like okay well I'll do it in college and then I go to run in college and it's like oh yeah you're not you're not running a marathon but when I was looking at schools to go to, I would talk to the coaches and I would always bring up, hey, would you ever coach me after college when I go on or run marathons? And some of the coaches were pretty honest and they were like, well, I think there's better pro coaches than me. So I'd recommend you to go to different pro coaches. And I thought that was, that's great to look back on now, but I don't think that convinced me to go to school. Yeah.

And other coaches were like, yeah, and Coach Ice Stone had been a two-time Olympian in the marathon. And he'd almost made two teams in the 10K, one early in his career and one after his two teams in the marathon. And so I saw that as like, this guy's done what I wanted to do. And he's coached other Olympians. And so I was like, this is the reason I went to BYU was because I'd seen he'd done, yeah, he'd done what I wanted to do and he coached people to do what I wanted to do.

So I was like, this is the guy that I want to coach me. He knows what he's doing. And then you went out faster than he said today. Yeah, and then I went out faster than he said today. I'm not a great, I'm not a great follower. No, I'm just kidding. Hey, races, sometimes you make decisions you should make. Right, right.

Went out a little too hot. But, yeah, no, and how old is he now? He's been doing it a long time, right? I think he's early 60s, probably 63. Okay. Oh, yeah. If I had to guess, I feel like when he turns 60, we ain't a big deal out of it. Oh, okay.

Yeah. He's been coaching for, I think this is 25th year coaching. Yeah. I know I've seen his name or read his name many times. Yeah, yeah. He's kind of a legend in the sport, isn't he? Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

And what's fun is he just keeps having more and more success. Like 2024, he had coached. There were four of us he was currently coaching that made the Olympics. And there was one other of his former athletes. to make the Olympics in the marathon. And then we had the BYU cross-country team win the NCAA championships. So he just had like the most stored year of his career. He's not a run.

And it's his like 24th year coaching. Stuck with it. Yeah, he's just, you know, having more and more success every year. Yeah. What's so nice about him though as a coach is he's always willing to learn. He's not like set in his ways. He's not like this is the only way to do it. he'll bring up things like i think let's try this out or hey another coach is trying this out

let's see if we like it and if athletes come to him and are like hey i want to i want to change something here or there he's very open to it and i think that's what makes him such a great coach yeah because a lot of coaches aren't like that right pretty set in their ways aren't they know what works here's the formula my formula here's what works and this what we're doing especially older coaches yeah like they'll be like no this worked for you know so-and-so back in 98 or something like back and now he's very good about being like he's very humble and he's like oh this didn't work when I was an athlete so let's see if this works instead like what what's something that that he's changed that you can recall like is something like are you thinking like double threshold

isn't that like a thing people are doing nowadays it's a new thing yeah he's tried it out he started it with our cross-country team about two years ago and they've they've had a lot of success with that Tell me what that is exactly, the definition. So, I mean, the actual definition, we probably go a little bit harder than we should, but it's you want to stay at like your threshold on a blood lactate levels. They'll like prick your finger and get it tested.

And they'll do repeats of, you know, either six minutes or two miles or a mile. And then, you know, some short rest, like 60 seconds or 90 seconds. They'll test their lactate level. is they have to be under a certain number. We don't do it like that. We're more on effort-based. So it's like we'll go do a five-mile run at a threshold effort

that's somewhere between half-marathon and marathon pace. So pretty fast. So pretty fast, but not like we're not, you know. Not redlining. And, you know, when you're doing mile repeats at your marathon pace, it feels pretty good. And so what he'll have us do is it'll be like these effort things on the grass. just like run you know a thousand meters on the grass and then we're do 60 seconds rest we'll do that

eight to 12 times um and then we'll do something else like some mile repeats on the grass you know four times at about the same effort and so you're never you're not pushing that much you're never redlining but it's you're just getting a lot of work in at close to like a faster pace so with is the double is like are those two different things like the first you do one in the morning and one of the evening. Okay, gotcha. Yeah. It's essentially like doing double workouts.

It's like football daily doubles. Yes. Yes. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. Because I've heard that mentioned a lot and a lot of, I'd listen to a lot of running podcast and I knew that was like a new kind of strategy or approach.

So yeah. I think with Jakob Bingabits and started doing it. And I think that led to a lot of people to trying it out. Okay. And I think it was a thing like with Norwegian athletes for a while. But it wasn't until Yaakov got all this success that anybody, that anybody, really thought to do it. Yeah, because you'd think that, let me think.

I mean, if you had a hard workout and you got a night's sleep, and then the next morning, you're recovered. So it's sort of like you've got a whole day to recover to fuel. Do you guys nap, or do you guys just get off your feet? Yeah, just kind of get off my feet. Yeah, and then recover, and then you can, so you're getting, yeah, oh, I was talking, that's who I was talking. I was talking to somebody about this.

Maybe it was coal. and I was saying what because I was like yeah I was like peeling back we didn't talk about this in detail like the double threshold and what that man or coaching strategies but I was thinking what if like what if you didn't care about what time of day it was and you just got eight hours in between every workout so like you might work out in the middle of the night but you had that eight hours break and then you sleep then like maybe you could get instead of say two workouts a day seven days a week that would be 14 workouts. What if that led,

what if you could get 20 workouts? Right, that's a good point. But in your recovering and you're fueling and you're sleeping in between each one. I don't know. Because like for us, we'll do like, you know, a hard day, easy day, hard day, easy day.

But I wonder if you, you know, you break up your days to be 16 hours, you know, 16 hour cycles. Yeah. Would you have enough recovery if you're fueling right and eating right? Exactly. And sleeping enough.

Because remember when Kobe Bryant, he would say that example about if he gets up at three in the morning, works out at four in the morning, goes home. He can get more work at, like another workout or hours of workout more per day than everybody else. And then over years, they'll never catch up. Right. Remember that? I've heard that, yeah. Yeah, so I was thinking about that with running. Yeah, it's just so hard to do like so many miles.

Yeah. But I do think there's other things you can do that will sell. like I mean like Cole I don't know if how open he is with this training but his group does a lot of like they'll cross train they'll like go on the bike for like hours or they'll go swim for half an hour to an hour and then they'll do like anti-gravity treadmill so they can run harder but it's not as much pounding on your bones and stuff yeah and so if you did that type of approach it would probably work yeah like one of those workouts yeah like one of those workouts like you're adding in something else and then you're just recovering extra hard yeah

anyway i was just like with this thought it's always like what else could we do right you know be more creative but yeah i don't know um yeah that's interesting and i think that's something that's probably going to come from like i bet it's going to be somebody who's coached by some coach that didn't do running that like did a different sport is going to bring something like that into the sport and somebody's going to have success with that and then that's going to you know change the story i don't know if it'll happen from anybody who's more traditional sense right yeah because you you go to back you go back to what's always worked right right i think that's i mean that's human nature um i was curious you know you mentioned this well ago but on your mission you i think i read you went to

gana right yep and i don't know maybe these guys said it they do some research for me usually come up with stupid questions at the end which i'll probably skip because they're inappropriate and not good normally you just got to know these guys but they said something like it said or maybe true it said but it said like you could only work out a half hour a day yeah for a couple years yeah how hard was that that was tough yeah that was tough like when you're so used to just you know exercising so much and it becomes so much of your own character yeah it's hard to be like all right i have a half an hour to do as much as i can and now they're a little more lenient on that but when I was when I was on the mission it was for the first 18 months they changed the rule when

I was like six months to go home but then by that point I was so dialed in on the same schedule and you have to also be with a mission companion and so like yeah I could get a good workout running 30 minutes a day but if they didn't want to run with me I'm not running right and so I tried various things and a lot of my the mission companions I was with were from Africa and different parts of Africa. And I think they were a couple of them. There were two of them that were like, they hated running with me. Like they would run with me one time.

I'd say, hey, I'd love to run for exercise in the morning. And they would like try and race me. And then like they couldn't keep up with me. And then they would just start walking. And like, oh man, like I can't have this white guy like fasted them. We're so upset at that. Yeah. And they were like.

very fit guys like we were running hard yeah but then at a moment best in the world right right or at least yeah for my age group I was you know one of the best in the at least in the u.s and so it was just like yeah my my poor companions but I would usually get the guys that were like really overweight like Americans that are like yeah I'm gonna lose weight and they'd go run with me someone run with me for 20 minutes some 30 and then near the end I had a nice routine where I'd like I was like a 21 minute routine and then I'd go run with the guy for nine minutes and so I'd do as many push up still failure

and I'd get about 70 at the end of the mission Oh that's good Yeah I was pretty proud of it That's why you look so jacked today That's probably why I like a little bit bigger than all the other runners Yeah yeah you did Okay I was I was

Do you think that Maybe this is the part of the point but limiting how much you can put into yourself is kind of the point of what you're doing or, you know, because our life isn't all about us. Right, right. Do you think that you learned and grew from, you were so dialed in on training

or is such an important part you said of your life that that was good for you? Oh, 100%. Okay. I think the mentality of going from, you know, sports, they're pretty selfish. Like you're focused on like how can I be the best and so like I went from being pretty selfish, you know, like my parents are sacrificing for me to compete to go to meets all over the country. So all of a sudden like no one no one cares about running that's around me like all of a sudden.

It means nothing. Like no kid in Ghana cares what my mild time is in high school. They care about, you know, the tough things for them. They care about, it's a very religious country, so they care about Jesus. Are they Christians? Most of them. I think it's like 80-something percent of Christians, and then most of the rest are Muslim. Okay.

So it's a very, very religious nation. So they care about religion, they care about doing what's right in front of God, but they also care about, you know, food and housing and electricity, and if they can get that, because it's a third world country. And they're one of the quicker-growing countries in Africa. They're doing very well compared to most countries in Africa, but they still are, you know, it's taken a while for them to rise. And I don't know, it's cool to see all the development and all the improvements, but it's like

a lot of people are just coming from nothing and or very little compared to what we have here in the States. It was very humbling to be like, you know what? Running is just a sport. That's all it is. And I'm happy now that I can make it my living. But I don't think if I hadn't learned that there, I don't know if I would have been able to get as good as I am now.

Just because I think I would have over-obsessed and overthought about the sport. And then it was good to take a step back and be like, no, like, there are so many things everybody else worries about that are even in my life are priority overrunning yeah and they should be so is that yeah i mean it's probably hard but like even on days like today that's good to think about yeah you know yeah because we we are so privileged i remember i've been over there a few times hunting i was in tanzania for a few weeks and i remember you know them saying so life is good in America huh and I'm like yeah I mean but to them America is like I mean everybody has jobs and money and right it's like it's like the promised land for them they're just like

can't even imagine what America would be like and we're like I mean we're just born here we're just right we got won the lottery of being born in America we didn't do anything right oh absolutely you know We haven't, but yeah, it's, so I think we forget that. Yeah, we forget how lucky we are to have these opportunities. Yeah, 100%. And even when I was out there, like, there was one time, it was like my last two weeks out there. And I had, like, gotten so used to what Ghana was like that I was like, that made sense to me. Like, the U.S., like, it was tough coming home just because of the culture shock.

You know, there's something so simple, and I talk about I'm not trying to compare anything to that, but like when you're hunting or when you're over there, when you're, when life is simple, when it's just a matter of I need to get water and food, find a place of sleep tonight, there's something beautiful about just, that's life. Life is so simple, that's all that matters.

Right. And then we get here distracted with all these other things. about what people think of us. What are we going to post? What are we going to this or that? And it's just like, is this really what life is about? Right.

And it's like you have to go to places like that or experience things like that. And then it sounds like we're, I don't even know how to explain it, but it, I don't know. It's just we have to experience that to get kind of woke up and just kind of, and just like,

to me, it was a way. I could call. It was like, what have I been complaining about? That was one, the one big thing I did learn there is I thought, oh, you know, coming over from America, I have a high school education. I can read. So I'm like, you know, I'm really smart. And then I go there and I'm just, I feel like an idiot every single day. Like I mess up every, like, not just the cultural things, but it's like, I have no idea how to hand wash clothes. Yeah. Like I just get there and I'm like, oh, crap, like I have to learn from somebody. and I was terrible at it.

And it would take me like two hours and then it's like you look over and this woman hand washed all their clothes in like 20 minutes and you're like, oh, that's something I just don't know how to do. Well, yeah, and it's like, you can do calculus and it doesn't mean anything. Right.

It means absolutely nothing there. Right, exactly. So, yeah, I don't know. I think that's important for us. I don't know. I don't know. I just think that we're very lucky and we didn't,

We don't deserve. We don't deserve. We just got born here. Right, right. And yeah, I don't know. So we can, I don't know. The so what to that is always hard for me. Like, what am I supposed to do to help people there?

Yeah. Yeah. Because you can't help everybody in the world. You definitely can't. And you want to. You don't want anybody suffering. Right. And you know they're suffering.

Right. But, yeah, you could drive yourself crazy thinking about that. Oh, I feel like that. idea yeah and yeah it's just so so hmm i don't know i know i know i've been impacted by traveling the world and seeing these different cultures and different people and just trying to learn from them um because we get in our life here and we get pretty dialed in on whatever we need to do and we can have success because you know what for whatever reason but going and and experiencing those different things and befriending people and caring about other cultures

and people, man, it's, I know not everybody can do that and then some people never leave their hometown and their whole life and they're, they're just as happy. But man, I'm grateful to be able to, you know, just see that and grow and hopefully gives us perspective, I think, is the biggest thing. Give us perspectives that helps, helps us back in our, where we influence people directly. Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, sometimes it's just, you know, your neighbor down the road or the guy next door. So it, yeah, it can be too hard to find out how to help, you know, your friends in Ghana or maybe the people you don't know in Ghana, but you're like, I know there's somebody that needs this help. You can have compassion and grace and offer grace to people. And yeah, so if we learn

that from, I guess, the travels, and that's good. Yeah. Yeah. And that's interesting. interesting. Yeah. Dang. Well, you know what? That was a lot deeper than I thought we were going to go with that. I don't ever, you know, I never know where this conversation is going to go. I thought, you know, like, I don't know if you ever listened to Rogan, but I've been on his and he never has notes, right? Some people have all these notes and they're like, oh, I want to do this. I'm going to ask this and that. And so I'm like, oh, I'm just going to be like, Joe, I didn't realize how hard that is. It is really hard to not have a plan. And it's like, because when you're doing a podcast, yes, you want to listen to, I want to listen to you, but I also going to think about, we've got to keep this going.

Yeah, we got to keep the conversation there. There can't be like long pauses. And I'm like, wow, Joe is just really a lot better at that than I am. So I never know what, what I'm going to say. And his podcasts are long. They're long. And he's so, he never gets tired. Dude, we'll go out to dinner like after the fights.

he'll he just loves to talk oh really he loves to have conversations that's why it's it's not even he's just so good at it yeah and anyway so maybe i need notes i think he's the moral to the story no so i never know what we're going to talk about but i'm like well we'll just talk about running and then who knows what else but yeah yeah exactly i'm i'm super thankful that you were you know willing to come over and you know we're big fans of you and i'm even a a bigger fan now, just getting to know you a little bit. And we're going to go run Piscay, right? Yeah.

Are you down? I'm down. Okay. Well, I'd love to. Do you guys have any, like, appropriate questions? Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay.

Let's hear it. This is Gideon. His nickname's Gide. No, it's your middle name, right? Yeah. Middle name's Gideon. And then... You can just call us the peanut gallery.

Okay. And then Connor is... Larry. Larry. I'm going to get it. Okay. You talked about, like, when you were younger, you know, being in a middle school and then some new kids come in and you realize you're not the fastest there even, but you still had that unwavering belief that you were going to be faster. How is that like coming from college moving into professional running?

Oh, that's a great question. I feel like, you know, finishing college, you're not as ignorant, especially because in the NCAA you have so many good Africans that come in. Like the East African running is the best in the world. And a lot of those guys will come over here when they realize that I can't get a pro contract. I'll go run it in the NCAA system. I'll get an education. And then they'll get good enough to either get a pro contract or all of a sudden they have a bachelor's or a master's degree and they're able to move on. So it was definitely tough.

I mean, today's race was pretty eye-opening again. Seeing, you know, I'm almost a full minute back from some of the best in the world. it's that ignorance, I feel like that keeps us going. It's like, yeah, I'm a minute back, but next time I'm going to be 40 seconds back, and the next time I'm going to be 30 seconds back, and eventually I'm going to catch these guys. So it's a tough thing, but I think for me it was a little easier

because we had, there was some of the, one of the 2016 Olympic marathoners for the U.S. was a BYU guy who kind of was training with us when I was in college. His name's Jared Ward. And seeing him have success kind of like paved a trail for Clayton and myself. And then we had Kenneth Rooks win a silver medal this past year. And even though he was doing the steeple chase, it was cool to like see all of us just kind of follow this plan that Jared had kind of not even made a plan with coach, but it's like the path to success.

To success. It gives you a little bit of hope that, hey, we got to, you know, that was one thing. When Truitt, he, when he went for the world record, it was 8,000, the first time, and he got 4,000 and just couldn't go any further. One thing about him is like, it's never like, I just don't have what it takes. It's like, no, I just need to work harder.

And it sounds like that's your same attitude. It's like, you can have a bad day. It's just like, okay, well, this is where I'm at now. Just get to work. I think in running, that's how a lot of athletes are. Like I'm finding, it's really hard for me to ever say, like um like yeah i'm just like that was it it's always like okay what could i improve on today and what can i improve on for the next five years right or four years or whatever i need to do to get

to the next olympics like how am i going to win a gold medal in in l.a what do i need to do and it's like i'm i don't know i was i was 71 seconds off a bronze medal at the last olympics i have that memorized um but now it's It's like, okay, I've added little things here and there. I've ran a little bit more miles every week. And it's those little things that you just have to add up to be like, how am I? It is like, how do I work harder? Or I'm just going to work harder, but it is, you know, almost calculated.

Intentional. Yeah. Yeah. So 71, what place did you get? I was eighth. Eighth, but 71 seconds from third? Yep. Pretty tight.

I mean, that's, I mean, just over a minute. Yeah. Doesn't seem like, I mean, regular life, that's nothing. Right, right. A little different, but yeah, you were there. Yeah. You're right there. I mean, it didn't feel like right there because I can't, my eyesight's not great,

so I couldn't see him anymore, but I was like, I was like, oh, I was just hoping people are going to start, you know, overheating and blowing out the last few miles. And they were only like two guys up for the last six that did. So I was kind of disappointed when I was like, I was like, wait a say. I thought everybody was going to like blow up because this force is supposed to. to be so hard, but it was fine. Yeah. That was Paris, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Well, okay. What else you got? You guys talked about like sports psychology, and I find it interesting. Different athletes kind of have different rituals, or maybe they're superstitious. Do you have a routine or ritual you do before big races? I definitely have a routine. It's not super like cut and set in stone, though. I think in a way it's nice to just go with the flow. I have like, you know, about four hours out of a race, three hours out, I'll eat a meal. And I'll have like the certain things I'll take like, I'll do like a more in, they have their solid 160 bars.

I'll take some of that. I'll take one of those few hours out and then I'll take their 320 drink mix and be drinking that through the day. But it's nothing like super specific because some people when their rituals get thrown off, they really struggle. and I could see myself being like that. I think in high school it was like I had to have the same pair of socks. And then my senior year at the state meet, I didn't have those socks. Ooh. And I didn't run very well.

And it was like, was it the socks or was I being superstitious? Or was it I just wasn't fit, you know? I did see that because you won as a junior. Mm-hmm. And then did you get second as a senior? I was second as a senior. Yeah. So I actually, this is, I actually had a lot.

little bone injury in my femur maybe not a little injury i probably shouldn't have ran oh um who beat you a guy named josh collins okay he's what's he doing now i don't even know last i talked to him he seemed to be doing pretty well okay um he went he graduated from suu and i don't know i bet he's living in uh the mountains of like midway utah or something like that like somewhere really really fun but you were hurting in that race but i was hurting in that race and it was actually the track meet. I forgot the socks, but in that race, I was hurt.

And then I tripped. I had gaped him. And then I began to worry so much that he was going to pass me. And I just slowed down to the last, like, you came out into a track, and I slowed down the last few meters. Just like, I think the worry just, like,

was crushing me. And then he, like, the moment he came by, my form just, like, went, and I just ate it on the track. Oh, no. And so it was like, not only did I, like, get beat, but, like, I also fell probably 30 meters from the finish line. Oh, no. And I just got up and just jogged it in and then collapsed right after.

And it was, you know, talk about embarrassing because they had, like, stands at the finish line too. Oh, man. But it was a good learning experience and, like, it was good for him because, like, he had, he was. he was one of the better guys in the country at the time but it was like I had just been I was just so so much better at the time so it was like nobody ever like thought of him as a good guy nationally you had won the year before I had one the year before yeah yeah and I'd won by quite a lot like almost a half a minute okay yeah do you think that yeah I mean I know uh there's another ultra runner um man wow he I

God, Jeff Browning, and he has this great, he got beat at Kokadona last year, and he said it's not what he wanted, but it's what he needed. Yeah. And he's kind of tearing up saying that in this documentary. And do you think that obviously you didn't want to lose that race, but did it help you in some way? Oh, absolutely. I can look at every race and be like, I did something here that, or there was something I learned from it. And sometimes it takes me a minute.

Oh, of course. Like today I'm still trying to digest it. But I mean, every race this year, like, there was something I took from it. Like, for example, in the half marathon that I talked about earlier where I broke the American record, it was like, okay, I want to finish through the line. And then at the New York half marathon, it was, I ran that in March. in second there. And it was like, okay, I want to run tangents a little bit better and also just I work, I was better at finishing through the line. I was kind of alone, but it was like, I really did that well. So I went to the Boston Marathon pretty confident. And at the Boston

marathon, I, there were certain parts. I got so caught up in trying to push, or in trying to beat the guys around me. That from mile like 21 to 24. I was just trying to like throw in surges and and little sprints to try and make the guys around me slow down. And they didn't slow down at all. And I afterward I missed like the American, like Boston doesn't count as a world or as a record eligible course. But I missed the best time at Boston by an American by 10 seconds. But I thought I was being smart because I was trying to beat the two guys next to me. Yeah.

And in the end I was like, I had enough that if I just kept a consistent effort. I would have beaten that time. And those guys would have probably beaten me still. But I was like, I want to work on that. And so my next race was this Boulder, Boulder one. Yeah. And with a mile to go there, I was about 15 seconds back. And I was like, I don't care how far this guy is ahead of me.

I'm going to push to the line because of what I learned in Houston. And then based off what I did in Boston, I was like, and I don't care if he's not even coming back to me. at all. I'm just going to keep running and keep pushing the pace so I can get my fastest time on this course that I can get today. And then in the end, he faded with about, I passed him at, I don't know, 30, 40 meters left. I didn't catch him. I wasn't even close to him until probably 200 meters. Wow. But you stayed disciplined. But I stayed disciplined. Yeah. That's the key. It seems like to all this, it's just staying disciplined on what's the goal. Right. Yeah. Hmm. I did

hear you say one thing that like you were happy or it was good for him the guy who beat you in your senior year to win that that is healthy yeah because you knew that was important to him yeah maybe more important for him to win that than for you to win it i don't know it definitely was i mean um and i think that was something that was it was healthy for me to lose because then it realize it helped me learn oh nothing's nothing's given it doesn't matter you know what you've done beforehand if you don't show up on the day if you get a little like if you let up you're you're not going to lose you're not going to be able to win yeah and so I think it was it was good for me to lose good for him to win it probably meant a lot more to him at the time and I don't know that's a

it's a cool thought yeah they got me thinking about that well yeah I mean we're we're always learning if we're doing it right. Yeah. Okay, last one. How do you balance the camaraderie of running with fellow Americans, running for a team, running for the USA, but also knowing that when you step on that track, you're going for gold?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think one thing I really had to work on, because my training partner, Clayton Young and I, we've been the top Americans, and the last four marathons we've run together, we've been the top two Americans. And it's tough because we train together. I mean, he joked once that we probably spent more time together

than we spent with our wives. Yeah. And I got after for that. I was like, no, we don't. But then it was like, we do spend a lot of time together. You're not rough. Yeah. But it's, I don't know, I have to look back and be like,

it's not me versus Clayton, it's me versus myself and me versus everyone. And so it's like if Clayton runs really well, yeah, he might beat me. But if I run really well, I'm in a place, if I focus on everybody else, I might be five places up and what I normally am. And he might be six places. He might be the one ahead of me. But I can't compare too much with the other Americans because, you know, you can get complacent about being, oh, I'm top American, but I'm a hundredth in the world.

Or I'm top American, but I'm eighth at the Olympics. You know, it's like, I want to be, it's not. Best in the world. Yeah, it's not best in the world. Yeah. And so I just try and focus on improvement every day, but it does make it tough at the Olympic trials because it's like only three people are going to make that team. Right.

And so I got to focus on what I can do to get there and not focus on. I need to beat, I need to beat Clayton Young. need to be Leonard career or I need to be, you know, whoever the other great Americans are in the marathon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I get that. But yeah, that was a good question because I was curious about, like sometimes you wonder if sometimes,

I don't know if these other countries work together sometimes. Like in Boston, it seems like there was some fellow countrymen and I don't know if they were helping each other. Yeah, there were a few, there were some Ethiopians helping each other. it was. Yeah, the returning champion, Sissilema, I hope I said his name right. I'm terrible at pronouncing some of these East African names, especially the Ethiopian ones. You've done good as far as I know, because I don't know how to say it either. But Sissilema, he was the returning champion and he was running pretty well and like everybody's like looking to him, but he'd kind of

been opening the press comics. He's like, I'm injured. Like, Don't expect me to do too well. And it was like, wow, that's interesting. You'll say that. And then there was a guy who was a former world champion in the 5K, or a two-time world champion in the 5K he was in it from, also from Ethiopia. I don't even think they trained together.

But he went up to him and they started talking mid-race. Oh. And then he, like, dropped back and Sissa was leading and, like, going the pace that I think Mucktar had told him to go. And then Mucktar ended up taking fifth place, but it was like they were much sure i was the top ethiopian that day and i wonder if what he was saying to him was yeah was helping him out strategy let's uh yeah like here's what i want you to do because everybody's everybody's keying off you because you're the you won it last year and uh

it was it was pretty cool like seeing how they work together i think like clayton and i have done that like he's helped me probably more during races than i've helped him um because i keep In races, you know, we'll have our race-specific water bottle with our drink mixes in them. Right. And there's been like, there was both at the Olympics and at the Olympic trials. At the Olympic trials, I missed it. Like, I grabbed, like, the lid instead of the, like, bottle itself. And it just flipped.

Oh, no. And just flew across the course. And then Clayton was like, here, you can have half of mine. And then at the Olympics, I grabbed the wrong one. And they had people out in that course, like, handing it to us. Yeah. these ice hats and things. And I grabbed the wrong one and the guy, like, knew it was Clayton.

So he, like, tried to, like, not let me have it. And so it's just like, but I was running so fast that he just knocked it out of his hand. And I was like, oh, dang it. Like, and then Clayton grabbed mine and he comes to me. He's like, well, I got your bottle. And I was like, thanks. I drank like half of it. Gave it to him.

And he drank the other half. Yeah. And he was like, he was expecting me to have his. Right. Because he puts some, he puts some different stuff. And as I do just straight, more and three. and he'll mix his up with like he actually i think uses ketone IQ okay um and then he'll like mix that in with it so they're a little different yeah but i felt really bad to like um both at the olympic

trials and the olympics have to rely on hand well that's where being a teammate pays off i guess that's true probably more friends than teammates yeah you know you just you guys are just friends but yeah interesting stories. I'd love hearing all that, all the behind the scene stuff. Have you done a lot of podcasts? I've done a few. They're always with running, like Sidious Mag, like Chris Chavez. They do a good job. He does a great job. He's a lot of fun to be on. Yeah, yeah. I listen to all the I listen to a lot of running ones. It's fun. I love hearing all the strategy stuff like what you've shared. So thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, of course. Well, let's go hit the mountain. All right. Let's do it. All right. Keep hammering, guys.