Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 157 - Alexi Pappas

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

Alexi Pappas - Greek-American runner, filmmaker, actor, and writer. Pappas was an NCAA All-American athlete at both Dartmouth College and the University of Oregon. She represented Greece at the 2016 Summer Olympics, setting the national record for 10k. Join us for a conversation about Alexi’s first hunt and her perspective on hunting and a new appreciation for the outdoors. Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes  Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/  Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com  Follow Alexi: https://www.instagram.com/alexipappas/   Mentor Buffet Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Mentor_Buffet  Mentor Buffet Podcast on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1O68PH0r2JXIL6UW1JMGEo   Timestamps: 00:00:00  Love for the State of Oregon 00:06:55  Alexi’s First Time Shooting a Rifle 00:22:20  Being Connected to Nature & the Elements 00:27:29  Hunting for the First Time, Quails, & Observing the Buck  00:37:56  Developed Instinct and Being Immersed as a Hunter 00:44:08  Sight Acquisition & Going Through the Shot Process Without Ammo 00:49:59  The Truth is Good if You Keep Going 00:53:44  Alexi’s Perspective of Cam as a Hunter & Mentor 01:03:59  Cam’s Values & Experiencing Failures that Led to Success in Alexi’s Hunt 01:15:56  Confidence in Certainty, “Rascal Mentality”, and New Traditions 01:24:57  Balance and Harmony in Hunting 01:32:25  F#*k, Marry, Kill: Film, Writing and Running 01:36:56  Alexi’s Kill Tony Moment is 01:39:26  Knowing Yourself at Your Core Level 01:43:29  Hate Comments from Cam’s Reel of Alexi’s Buck 01:52:51  Final Thoughts

Every step I take I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel. Gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I'm moving so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. I can hear it just fine.

Yeah, I usually talk pretty close to this, like this. Do you really? That's a style choice. Yeah. Why, you really have the Gucci theme. Is that? We're branded, baby. Yeah, but you're like good.

Like that's how we knew we were going to be friends. Let's start this conversation by talking about Gucci. Okay. We hope that Gucci hears this message and decides to put Kim Haynes and Alexi Pappas in an ad together. It would really shake up the system for Gucci and bring them into the present in a way that they haven't been in the present before. It would be a hitter. We should be in a Gucci ad. That would be fun. Yeah, that would be fun. I think I'm sure they're going to jump on this for sure.

For sure. They're going to see it. Wait, but what is your connection to Gucci? Because you know mine. And I don't mean connection. Yeah. What's your emotional tie to Gucci? You can say none.

You could say it just like bougie. No, I went. So I went and ran the two bears 5K. Uh-huh. And at the Rose Bowl with Bert and Tom Segura. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I thought since I'm running, In a race in L.A., I should be wearing Gucci. So I went to the Gucci store in Rodeo, and I bought like three things that were $4,000. And I wore it in the race. That's my tie. That's my tie. That's it. And then you were like, you know what, I'm never going to actually spend this money

and I'm going to make my branding Gucci-themed. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I like it. I think it's so rad. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, it was fun, though. I mean, it's people like it. The shorts are, they sold out in like one second.

And if you reprint, please send it all to me. Definitely, definitely. I know I have a strong tie. I know. I'm going to get you hooked up. This is the Keep Hammering Collective with Miss Alexey Pappas. How are you? I'm great. I just had some homemade chili with your family and it had elk in it.

And it was so good. And I'm in my favorite place in the little. world. Eugene Oregon. Yeah. I'm so happy. Why do you love Oregon? I love Oregon.

Well, I love Oregon. I feel most myself in Oregon. And I feel like I grew up here, even though I didn't. I went to school as a fifth year at Oregon and then stayed to train for the Olympics. So I think I grew up as an athlete here. And I just, I don't know, I love it. You know, yourselves just love places and things. and I love the moss.

I love the people. I love the food. I love the moss. Yeah. We saw some like fluorescent green moss yesterday. Yeah. So yesterday we were chasing. We were on an adventure.

What? We were? Yeah. What was it? Oh. Well, we were in the woods and we saw lots of creatures. And that was one of my favorite. favorite parts about being in powers.

Right. So Oregon is like the coming of age story for Alexi. Yeah. I mean, you said you grew up here. Yeah. It's a place also that I heard from fellow athletes that you want to leave before you outgrow it. And I think that's specifically a runner athlete story about Eugene.

Because I do know some people stayed so long. And I don't think it was the place. It was there. they stayed in this competitive running environment too long. And then they started to have this like challenged relationship with the place. And I left before I was ready to leave. And so I'm always trying to get back. Right.

Because you left like just relocating and the sponsor changes and a lot was going on in coordination with your leave. So it made it probably rougher, but makes coming back better. Yeah. It's the best. You come back in the place. place feels as it should. And fall here in Oregon is so beautiful.

And the Willamette Valley and where we were down powers towards the coast. It's just the colors and the leaves and just everything about it. Just the clouds kind of sticking to the Douglas fir up high on the mounds. And it was just a beautiful, a beautiful time of year, I thought, for you to come here and come back. this adventure you speak of. That sounds interesting. Yeah, we're on an adventure. Tell me about it.

Well, let's see. I mean, we went on this show. Well, let's see. I have learned, but I feel like I went to like grad school overnight with you in a way because I've grown up, you know, I think especially as like a Greek person.

I grew up, you know, my dad made whole roast chickens growing up, or you make a big roast, or you have, you know, Greek Easter is like there's a whole lamb on a spit. And I've been in environments where I'm more aware of, like, you know, where food comes from and everything. But to be able to peer into your world and learn was so cool. because you're so thoughtful and you're a very good coach. So our adventure began with doing drills and learning like a skill

that I've never done before, which is we shot at targets. Oh, we shot? Yeah, we shot at targets. And it was intimidating because it's not, you know, my sport is running, so I don't have a lot of hand-eye coordination

as part of my expertise. Well, you fooled me because it looked like it translated very well. And you had never shot a rifle. I think it was a shotgun you shot because you said you just pointed it one time and it kicked really hard. So it sounded like a shotgun. Yeah, I don't know. It was like a random.

But years ago, right? Yeah, it was and it was very just like, it just, yeah, I don't. Yeah, it was like one time, one random. Yeah. And then some people trained to win. Others train because there's no other way to live. If you're up early, pounding trail miles, pushing through that extra rep, or chasing an opportunity through 12 miles a mountain, then your fuel better match your mindset. Black Rifle Coffee was built by people just like that, veterans who don't quit, and patriots who live for purpose. Roasted in America, built for endurance, be our service. Be our

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So Wednesday, you landed. I picked you up at the Eugene airport, our favorite city. And we drove for two and a half, three hours, something like that. We got to Powers, Oregon, just not too long before dark. It gets dark very early at this time of year, obviously. five something and um we met my buddy kevin acres and we went to joe's house and joe is like a shooting savant he reloads ammo he builds guns he's uh knows every inside it out about firearms and uh kevin is very well versed in firearms also so we used his sig six five creedmore which is what you were shooting

and you had never shot a rifle again. It was just the shotgun the one time. And so we had to start at ground zero on shooting rifles. And yeah, tell me about that process. Well, I think the first obstacle was took me back to my childhood where my father gave me my brother's right-handed glove before he realized I was left-handed before I knew how to write. Right.

And so I'm a right-handed athlete. I throw baseball with my right hand, but I'm a left-handed writer. Okay. And what was challenging at first was to just simply figure out which eye and which hand was going to be oriented with the target and with the gun. And I didn't know what to do because my left eye is the one I would opt for to see, and my right arm is the one I would opt for to have handle like athletics. stuff. And we decided to go with my right because the comfort and like that felt stronger than my eye for some reason. Yeah. Yeah. It was that was hard because you had a hard time closing your left eye, but to shoot right handed, you need to look through the scope with your right eye.

Yeah. If you can't close your left eye and it felt like that was maybe your dominant eye, um, yeah, we had a challenge. So I had to hold your eye closed essentially. essentially, and then you could shoot. But it wasn't just holding your eye close because if I was just hovering over your eyelid, I could feel you trying to blink it. Yeah. I had to push on it. Yeah.

And then you're trying to learn this brand new skill. Yeah. Fire, you know, a high-powered rifle, essentially, doing something you've never done. It's going to kick. You're trying to hit, you know, we had the target out there 100 yards, had a little orange dot on it. There's a lot going on. for a brand new student.

Yes, and that's how we became closer friends because you had to really cover my left eye. So it was really like, it was very, it was great teamwork. Yeah. And then I think what I learned was, you know, I told you, but I felt a similar thing

when I learned how to throw a proper baseball for throwing the first pitch at the Giants game when I had that chance because I'd never thrown like a baseball before. And I remember you've to learn, learn all these individual, almost like a choreography, and then you want to internalize it enough for it to be smooth and be within your muscle memory and your brain memory.

And so I remember the next part was learning the choreography of loading and also like situating and focusing and having the, I learned that the target needs to be. hovering, I mean, as close to where you want it to go, communicating, right? We're talking about the crosshairs. They're going to float a little bit. So controlling that float. We don't want the float going past the target around, coming back, big, big loops, right?

As long as that float is pretty much on the orange on that, you know, when we're doing that, that float is minimal. If it's a timing thing where you're just trying to drive by, shoot. it as you go by, that's not going to work, right? Yeah. So it's navigating that float. But still, even aside from that, it's just it's a bolt action rifle. So putting the shell in, learning what that takes.

You got the safety. You got the scope or zoomed in or zoomed out, you know, 15 power down to whatever. And then getting ready. And then also it's a two-stage trigger. So that means you pull halfway. There's a little slack in it. And then you shoot. And I didn't know somebody who's never shot.

I was just like, you never know how it's going to go. Because people can be very intimidated by firearms, right? It's, you don't know how people are going to react, but you were incredible. I mean, it was amazing. I shot one time just to see where the scope was. You know, Kevin said it was on. And, you know, I hit like just probably 11 o'clock, just barely off the orange. And I'm like, okay.

then you shot and you hit just a little bit further off the orange but still same 11 o'clock orientation. I'm like, well, that's a great first shot. And then all your, then the rest of the shots were closer and closer and getting better. And just tell me about that, how that worked, that process. So what I was going to say, oh, that's what I was going to say. You're very process oriented. So you have like this, this chain of events that are going to happen and you're, you follow them very well, very rigid, very, you know, thinking about everything, very deliberately. And it was, it was beautiful. But explain that.

Yeah, I think there's like a, this is where I kept saying, like, I think there's something about either growing up as an athlete or like being an athlete where it, if matched with, like, sports or movements, because it doesn't, it's not just sport. It's like movement, body coordination. that feel, I don't know what I'm trying to say. I guess really what it was was like familiarizing myself enough with the new information so that I could integrate it in with the old me who knows how to move and execute on movement. That's what I do.

Yeah. Right? That's what athletes do. And so once I intellectually understood all the instruction and I had it memorized in my head, then I needed to, like, put it into play in my body so that I could do it as me, which it seems like this is a, do you call it a sport? Because I keep calling it. I don't call hunting a sport. Personally, a lot of people do. Yours is it's like a way of life. It's a lifestyle. Okay, it's a lifestyle. Maybe it's a skill. Yeah. I need to say, like,

I need to put the skill into play. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, right, it's a skill. It's a learned skill. Yeah. So the skill, like I understood the steps you were so helpful for me to understand what the goal of each step was. So that's actually, this is a really interesting conversation about people, like everyone needs to understand whenever they're doing anything what the goal is so that they can make it their own. Even in running training, like if a coach gives me a workout and they're not there to proctor it, like it's a remote coach or something, the most important thing for me to know is what the important thing of the workout is. So it could be this workout is speed work.

So I want you to go as fast as you can until you can't go that pace anymore. Another workout it might be we need to go the distance no matter what the pace is. And for me to know that was really important because then when I was in any step of like, you know, situating the gun or finding the target, I knew what the boundaries were and what the goal was so that then I could make it my own. And so in the real moment, I think what was, it was fun. I mean, it was fun to find the target and then have a moment where it was hovering in enough, with enough consistency that I could then do the next step. And yeah, it's kind of like you're going on a little,

you're doing a little mission every time you do it because every step, there's a moment where you're ready enough to go to the next step. That's sort of what it is. Right. And when you're ready to go to the next- You can't skip steps. No, you can't skip a step. And when you know, you should know with certainty that you're ready to go to the next step. And I think that was a good feeling for me to know

I had almost completed the previous step. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And then shooting, pulling the trigger for some reason, I don't know what athletic memory of mine it is, but it feels very natural to do it. two-part trigger, even though I've never done it. Something is, something feels, like, I don't know what other sports that I could compare it to.

They played a lot of sports, but there's some movement where that feels intuitively correct. It feels correct that you're not just like yanking on the thing. Right. I don't know if it's like when you shoot a basketball, there's like, I don't know what it is. It's just something about it feels very correct. So none of it when you're like, remember there's two parts. I was like, I don't even know if I would ever do it without two parts. I guess if you told me.

Yeah. But I think that, I think it really helped by having that because you could take that slack out of the first part and you had initiated the poll essentially. But it wasn't going to go off yet as long as you went slow enough. And then when you, and I know in the moment of truth on the, once we get to the climax of the story, I was saying feel that trigger, take the slack out, feel that. And that made you, in practice, you were very, very accurate. We got to where, which this is crazy, but after a handful of shots, we were feeling pretty confident and we said, hey, let's shoot at 300. That played out there at 300.

And you shot twice at 300 and hit it. First time, I mean, this is after a handful of shots. So that is very rare, that type of success, that type of accuracy and that type of control on a new skill. But I was amazed at how fast you picked that up. Thank you. Can I ask you, how does somebody miss, though, if there's, like, what goes wrong? Because there's a target.

Yeah. There's a moment of anticipation where they know what the goal is, as you said, you always, the goal is to hit the plate. Okay. they skip the steps and rush it. So either the float wasn't small enough, as you said, it was maybe going off the steel of the plate, or they punched that trigger,

meaning they blow through. If two stages, that's very hard for people. People get, say like an archery, people rush the shot because they know how it works. They know what they want. They want to be holding the antlers of the bull. or the buck they kill. So they know they can't hold the antlers until they shoot.

They have to get rid of that arrow. As soon as they want to get rid of that arrow as soon as possible. So a lot of people pull back and shoot. And before they even really aim or do all the steps they're supposed to, the arrows on the way because they know if the arrows on the way, they're sooner to holding those alters. But there's a million steps in between there, they skipped. So as I said, you being.

so process oriented, putting value on each step made that 300 yard shot possible. People learning a new skill don't understand the value of each step, but because how your brain works and how you are, maybe as an athlete or maybe just a person, maybe we can take athletics out of this, how your brain processes system, you know, integration, I don't know, or just achieving a goal, you just put very high value on every step. Like each step isn't more valuable than the next. They're all the same.

Right. Yeah. It's like how, yeah, it's, I was going to compare it to like a board game, but I'm not going to do that. Where I'm like, you guys do that. But I think it's like it's kind of that mentality of like be where your feet are, which is how I really try to live my life. It's very hard to do that.

Yeah. Because be where your feet are means, and I learn that from a friend of mine, it means be present. And it's not only, the benefit is not only that you're someone who's present, it's that you do what you're meant to be doing well. Right. At a high level. At a high level, because you can only, you can do it best when you're there.

Right. And so I think what I'm aware of is like blocking out the past and the future. future gives you the best chance at success in whatever you're doing and the most enjoyment. Well, you know, that's rare. But I don't know why. If somebody learned that. I don't know why it's rare. I'm just saying it's rare.

But somebody could change their mind right now. Someone could hear this and say, all right, I want to be happy. I want to have the most gratitude and I want to perform the best. And this is how I do it. So now I'm going to abandon and I'm going to have the discipline in any moment to remind myself that I had a previous conversation with myself. that this is the best way to be. And then my meditation in life is reminding myself to be here now. The why is something you talk about else time, not in the moment.

And then in the moment, it's about the quick reminder that this is the best thing to do. Yeah, that sounds very logical. But people could change right now. They could. They could just be like, all right, that's what I'm doing from now. And that's how I've lived my whole life is I'll learn something. And then I'll change my entire way of functioning moving forward. I didn't know it before.

Yeah. And I think there were things I learned yesterday about myself that I'll take with me that I didn't know before, too. And so that's kind of life, I think. Yeah. I mean, it's people know what they're supposed to do. Do you think so? It's just doing it.

Yeah, because you could, there's all sorts of self-help books that tell you exactly how you're supposed to act and react and interpret things. And it's just hard to be, as humans are complicated. and you're able to just hyper focus on things. And yeah, it should be obvious. It should be easy. It's not very easy. You're very good.

I don't know. Yeah, I think, I was like, we could get into human psychology about it all. Well, but, yeah. Okay, so to take a step back, what I said, when we're talking about this adventure, Ketone IQ is now backed by research from KU Lovin and team of Visma. Ketone IQ is showing powerful results in helping your body bounce back quicker and push harder,

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a bold 16-ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. I said, you're going to be exposed to a whole new world. You didn't know existed. Was that accurate or no? Yeah, it was 100% accurate. So tell me about this world. What did you tell me about the world you were exposed to? Well, I had to wake up really early, which you have to for marathons and stuff.

but the idea that waking up early wasn't it was based on orienting to nature was cool and different and that everything we did during the course of the day had to do with adapting and understanding nature that was very new world for me because usually you know with running and with a lot of things in life maybe you just are going to going anywhere every day you're trying to kind of do what you're trying to to do despite nature. That's what it is to live for most people most of the time. Nature is usually an obstacle. Yes. And in this, it can be an obstacle, but it's something you have to participate with. So you need to work with nature and you need to understand it and you need to accept it. You can't reject it because the nature is the truth. Give me an example of how you accept nature and work with it.

Well, I noticed that you had a tool that showed you which way the wind was blowing. And when the wind was blowing toward us, and if we were following an animal that was upstream from the wind, then that meant that they wouldn't smell us because the wind would be blowing our scent away. But if the wind was blowing our scent toward an animal, then they would definitely smell us. And so to understand that was an important tool. Very important. There's other, there's rain. There was so many, there's, yeah, like wind.

There were certain factors, right? I could tell you everything I learned, but everyone would learn everything. Yeah, yeah. And I think that to acknowledge nature in that way made me feel more connected to nature because I don't usually pay attention to all those things. And we really had to pay attention. Every step had to be quiet. Oh, I was also, look, I'm talking so much.

I love it. We had to not talk. You're the guest. We talked in the car. We didn't talk when we were outside because we were trying to be quiet and notice and move and be observant and not be heard. And I think to be quiet in nature is something I'm not used to. So that was a different world.

I learned about, like, honestly, so many things I learned about the seasons and the sustainability of it, the humanity of it. I learned how animals live in the wild versus in captivity. I learned that where you, I thought it was like, I think I get nervous to say it because it's almost like I'm saying that if you do it right, the animal doesn't suffer and I don't know that. No, that's true. If you do it right, as I said, humans are the only thing that is merciful and has compassion in the wild. The wild is brutal. There is no compassion in the wild. The animals do not care if another animal suffers. They're trying to kill each other. In fact, the buck that you killed had big jab marks. It had a broken rib, which could have been from a fight because it had many puncture wounds in it from another buck.

And there were two bears right there's two bears right there also. It's a, I mean, it's called the wild for a reason. And so when man enters in the equation and we're part of the equation, man has always hunted. People say, you know, they question whether hunting is necessary or whether why man would interfere. Man has always hunted. So we've always been part of this equation. And we're the only part of the equation that has. that compassion I spoke of. So when you make a perfect shot and you kill the animal with

with a perfect merciful shot, there is no suffering and the buck you killed did not suffer. So that's the ideal circumstance. Do you always make a perfect shot? Does everything just exactly as designed? No, because it's hunting and it can be imperfect at time. Life and death are both imperfect and death can be brutal it can be um elongated or it can be quick if we do it right it was quick your buck was dead in almost immediately no suffering so that's that's always the goal does that always happen no i'm thank god it did with you because i i wanted it to be a positive experience um But tell me about, okay, so first things first, we had to make sure you were proficient with the rifle. And you were very accurate.

And what I wanted to do, and I told you, I said, we're not going to force any shot. If you're not comfortable with the shot, we're not going to take it. We're not going to take a long shot. We're not going to take a shot at a moving animal. It's going to be a shot that you've proven you can deliver one lethal bullet. and we just need to replicate that in the wild. And once we went into the field, then it was a matter of, let's find this animal.

Tell me about it. It was a very windy day. Is that good? No. It's bad because the animals don't like the wind, so they're hiding from it. Why wouldn't they like the wind? Because their senses are disrupted

and their equilibrium is thrown off so they can't understand if there's danger nearby. and it messes their hair up, just like me. Yeah, they're very concerned about that. So they ever want to get out of the wind because it confuses them. And it was so windy. It was very windy. There wasn't rain.

There wasn't sun. It was just overcast and moody. And we did a lot of walking, which was another thing that was new for me was just to walk all day. And I was still a little sleepy from the marathon. I had run a few days earlier. and the ultramarathon I had run a few days before that. So I was like, okay, I can do this. And I learned that if you keep moving, you're less tired.

That was kind of a nice feeling. Like every time we're in the car, I was like, I think I'm going to fall asleep. And then every time we go out of the car, I was like, all right, this is what I do. Yeah. So it was bizarre weather, I think. And then we just kept moving to different places. And I learned how to use binoculars, which was also another skill that I appreciate having. because I never knew really, it's just an intimidating tool that seems like a prop if you're not using them in earnest.

Right. And so I felt like I was learning these very specific skills, so many skills actually that I don't have. And binoculars were one of them. And so I would practice, I mean, obviously I'm looking for animals, but I would just practice focusing on something really, really far away and seeing how quickly I could get to it with my binoculars. and that was very hard at first. But I started getting good at it, so I had my own little game going on. Yeah.

Yeah. And we had these amazing breakfast sandwiches that Ron and his family made. And like, I'm such a road trip girl and like just sipping coffee and like eating breakfast sandwiches in the car and like listening to, you're so vain.

Carly Simon. You probably sing to song. It was so great. It was like so happy in nature and like moss. And then the weather. there started to turn and it was raining a little bit. Is that good? Yes.

The rain is good. Okay. The rain is good because the large raindrops form in the woods because they bounce off they accumulate in the trees. And so the animals prefer to be out in the open where the raindrops are less intense. So we got excited and we started just sort of moving to different areas. and then we did see it was Kevin saw a buck when we were driving. Right.

And we got out of the car and it was tricky because it was in the woods and there was a dough. And then it ran off. And then one of my favorite parts of the day. We just walked through like the most lush woods of Oregon for like, an hour tracking an animal but like as far as i was concerned i was just like a kid following you and being super quiet like as far as i was concerned i was playing hide and go seek in reverse or whatever it's no seek what is it called when you find the people hiding go seek but i'm in a group there's a game it's called try to kill a buck game okay in your language yeah yeah yeah but so i was so i was just

so happy and then i was just trying to be quiet and like i was trying to move over every and under every stick, like, in a more graceful way. So there's a lot of body awareness. Yeah, it's like yoga. Like it's so controlled. Yeah, it is. And I noticed how much you pay attention to everything. And I think I learned a lot just by being around you how attentive a human can be, right?

Because people are so zoned out. Like, I was just in New York City. Everyone is, like, on their phones or, like, they're walking down the street. Like, no one else exists. Like, it's to total opposite. And so to be in the present with someone who is so dialed with exactly what's going on around him was like, it was like watching, um, like, yeah, like, I don't know, it felt artistic almost. Um, and then I, you know, we, what was cool was you followed tracks. you paid attention to where the river was and what that meant for like can this buck cross this river

did he cross this river where is the wind you were kicking over mushrooms at one point and i thought that you were doing it to re so we could retrace our tracks but you were actually just trying to figure out if there were any non-poisonous mushrooms in the woods yeah you thought it could have been breadcrumbs handsome brettles that's what i thought i was like oh he's so smart because if we get lost We'll just retrace the kicked over mushrooms. Well, you're wrong. I'm not smart. But hey, what about, so tell me about, didn't we have a group of,

some might call it a covey of quail? Oh, yes, the quail. Okay, so we're in the woods. And, okay, so imagine this. You're in the woods and we're crouched down now. Because for some reason, I never could ask you why we were doing anything when we were doing it. But we were stable, like crouched down. and you did the wind thing where you checked the wind.

And then through the trees, there was a, I would call it a marching band of quails. And they were toot-tooting along and doodoo, dat, dot. And they didn't know we were there. Right. So that was a cool thing because we got to witness nature without nature noticing us. Mm-hmm.

And that was just a cool experience to have because usually I'm like prancing through the woods, like running and I'm disrupting things. Birds are flying away. Right. But these quails might as well marched over your arm because they didn't really notice you. Yeah.

Yeah. So we were just kind of observing and waiting. That buck was pushing a dough. The buck that Kevin saw was a nice big, heavy three by three. And I wanted to get them for sure. So we circled around the direction they went through very thick timber there. And I didn't know if. we had got ahead of them or not, and it turns out they had crossed, but that was the tracks that we

followed. But in that moment, I just wanted to observe and sit and listen and wait and see if that buck might, you know, obviously that dough was hot, which means she's in heat and see if he'd push her by us and then we could get a shot, but that didn't happen. But that was part of that whole process, that hour long, that excursion we did. And it's just basically, it's learning, observing, uh, reactive, to what you witness and trying to anticipate what the animal might be doing or thinking. And there's a lot that goes into that. You know, a lot of it's instinct. You know, people say, you know, why would one hunter be good and another hunter fail?

A lot of it has to do with instinct and reacting to what you observe. And that's hunting. Can I ask you a question about instinct? Yeah. So I always thought you were born with instinct, and I guess you are. but I remember I was talking to Rich Roll, who's like a dear friend and mentor. And I was using that word instinct. And I was using it as if it was something I was born with and that doesn't change.

And he said it's learned. Right. It's developed. Yeah. I believe it's developed. So how did you develop yours? Experience. I've been doing it for 40 years.

Yeah. So as I explained to you, I learn every time I hunt still. Every day I learn, every stock, every walk, every encounter I learn. And that's my goal. I want to get better. I want to develop that instinct that I mentioned. And Rich spoke of. And that happens only if you're open to learning.

If you're not, you're not going to learn anything. Yeah. And so you have to be open to it. And you have to receive information. and react to it. And then at the end of that, say, okay, what did I learn from this? Yeah.

Well, you had, you also have, it seems like a strong ability to when, because there was a point in that specific moment of the adventure where we left that site. So we stopped, like, waiting and pursuing that one, like, that one, buck that had gotten away. So that was where I felt like interested because it was like you have to make a decision

at a certain point to pivot and go somewhere else, but not feel like you've failed. Right. Which is an interesting dilemma for people. Right. And I think the idea of success and failure within the scope of a really long day, you have to probably see it differently than failure because it's not a failure. No. So what is it?

It's, what is that? You try to take advantage of an opportunity and you weren't able to. And that's not failing. That's hunting. And every opportunity you don't capitalize on. Right. That wasn't even really an opportunity. We were trying to make it an opportunity.

opportunity so it was it was a pretty opportunity but uh yeah it's just you know you take your best shot not not shooting but you take your best attempt at you know getting within range of an animal and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but it's not failing it's just like okay let's uh let's cut our losses here not spend any more time here at that time it was starting to rain and it was still early in the afternoon it's still one o'clock so we had four hours left and i'm like it's okay we had to do this right now. I wanted this rain to pick up so those deer would get up off their feet because they had been bedded down. They don't like the wind. They don't like being in the timber. So they were in the units, but they were laying down and we couldn't find them because they weren't

on their feet. I thought with this rain picking up, the deer should be getting on their feet. So yeah, we gave it a shot during kind of a lull in the day and that's okay. That was fun and we can learn. And also I wanted to do that to get my thought was to get you more in tune with with hunting. and what it means to be a hunter and what a hunting mindset looks like. And a hunting mindset, if you just drive around and glass every once in a while, it's not being immersed in the woods. It's not being immersed as a hunter and being as reactive as we need to be. So I wanted to do that just to make sure you were punched in on the time clock on,

oh, we're hunting. This is what we do now. And then it just makes you, I think it makes you, more available to react accordingly when the time comes because you just something switches and you're like, I knew you loved that walk and I knew you loved just kind of being a student of the game. You like learning. And so I thought, well, this is a great opportunity to see how open you are to learning. Yeah. I mean, I just also, I'm going to be dead ass. I have not seen that many like adult men like crawl through the woods and like go through leaves and like be quiet like

it's just like you're a very unique creature to me because I see you know there's a lot of like people in suits and like they're really buttoned up and polite and you're very polite but you're moving toward a goal can you be toxic and polite because I'm toxic well okay I was also thinking about when we were driving and we were talking about like the necklace metaphor and like hooking a difficult necklace. So like I wear a lot of choker necklaces. Out in the mountains, there's no room for wheat gear. When I'm packing out meat in the heat or loading up for a long range training trip, I need a cooler that holds the line every time. That's why I use grizzly coolers. These things are bearproof, rugged as hell, and keep ice locked in for days literally.

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and use code CAM for 10% off. Six-hour Zulu Binoes. Seymour hunt harder. And sometimes I can't, like, hook them on myself. Or I don't know if anyone's ever tried to put a bracelet on by themselves. It's very difficult. Yeah. But you know that it can be hooked.

Yeah, there's... It's not an impossible... It's not like there's one clasp on one side and not on the other, so it's never going to happen. Yeah, exactly. There's going to be a connection as long as you don't give up. Yeah. And I think that I saw that in you, and I learned... And I learned that from you.

And I learned that that's a unique trait to your craft. And there are a lot of things that are like that. And there are things that are not. There are goals we take on that we don't know if they're actually, you know, they could be impossible. Yeah. Yeah. And those are fun to chase too.

Yeah, you like that too. But it's different. There was a key part. We kind of skipped over. but it was a key part for a new hunter. Do you remember, so we went to the first spot, as glass in the unit saw the dough across the way? And do you remember that tell me about site acquisition,

tell me about going to the shop process with no ammo? Do you remember doing that? Yeah, I do remember. Well, it was kind of like a dress rehearsal because you had spotted the dough. and the practice that I went through or the rehearsal was really just getting into that athletic stance and that positioning that we had gotten into

in our drills practice the day earlier. Right. And then the site acquisition is hard because I'm new to it, right? And brush looks very homogenous. It's just like brown tree, brown tree, blah, blah, you know. Yeah. And so I think that step was like familiarizing myself

with finding like a landmark with my naked eye and then going back into the scope and being able to match it and move toward and find it. And then to practice hovering the target in a way that felt, you know, effective and, like, steady. So we went, yeah, and then you load and you're like, I mean, you do a practice where you're, you're pretending to. And we did that when we knew we were not going to pursue.

and I think that was really helpful because it's like this is what it's going to more be like, right? It's not like a tin plate against white sky or whatever, whatever. Yeah. So it's more challenging. Right. So I wanted you, we took the ammo out

and I wanted you to, what we'd call it dry fire. And that's essentially you're aiming like you're going to kill it. It wasn't like it wasn't a buck. But you're going through your process, site acquisition, scope, get the float on there, does the float go off the deer at times or does it stay on its vitals and then feel that trigger the two-stage part and then squeeze and i think i said let's do that 10 times and it's just a matter of getting those crosshairs on a target and that is very very hard for a new hunter just finding you can see it

with your eye you kind of see what you're trying to find but then you go down into the scope and it's so zoomed in you don't know what you're you're looking at. It's like, it's like looking at the ocean and trying to find a wave, specific wave, and it's like, I don't, I can't tell where I'm at. But what we do is we back the scope off. So it's less powerful. It's not zoomed in as much. You kind of orientate me. I think on that one we had maybe there's a log pointing downhill. The dough is at the bottom of the log. So you find that log. Then you go in tighter on the, on the animal. Okay, now, now how does that flow look but yeah that was i think that was a very important part and it gave me confidence that you could

actually find something in the scope yeah and then that was solidified um we saw another buck we were driving a forkorn buck was about i don't know 80 yards off the road and we jumped out real quick and this isn't like a this is just a gravel road so you could definitely shoot if you wanted to but uh it's um you got on that buck really fast i i didn't have you shoot um But it gave me a great confidence that you were able to get that deer in the scope so fast. And that felt pretty natural, it felt like to me, or it seemed like to me. Yeah, I think I'm understanding that the way that the day feels is like you need to have a, it's really not unlike, like, how you run a really long distance race,

except that it's a completely different goal and there's much different physicality. but in terms of like you need to be kind of in this calm meditative presence. You can't be asleep all day, obviously, but you can't be like super jacked up and all day. Like you need to be kind of cool and calm and present and da-da-da. And then you need to be able to like focus and turn it on and do what you've been trained to do. And that felt really comfortable for me to like to wake up the other part of my function. And yeah, I think, I don't know, it just might be like where I am in life. Like I think if someone has hard time with this, it's not, doesn't necessarily mean it's who they are.

I think that like you get to a point in life where you can trust yourself to do what you have already learned how to do. And even if you're not an expert, you're expert enough that you have been welcome to do something. So, you know, I was not, if I was like in a higher stake situation or around people that thought I was an expert, that might have felt different. But I knew that everybody knew exactly who and what I was. Yeah. You know, it was like, it felt very honest. And so I was like, I can show up as like my honest self, but not to sell myself short,

like show up. Yeah. So that's how I felt. And yeah, in that moment, I remember I wasn't, obviously I don't know what's going to happen exactly. So I'm just like following instruction and doing the dress rehearsal as if it's the real thing every time. Right. Because that's probably how you learn the best. Yeah, I would think. I think some people, I've taught people different things.

Or I've pretended like I know what there's, you know how when people say, do you understand? You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it. But you don't. Yeah. That happens. I've done that. And it's, it's, people don't generally, I don't think, like feeling inferior or unskilled or, you know, you're taught to be confident and believe in yourself. But is there that belief that hasn't been earned yet? And so it's not real, but you're still saying it? Or, because being honest sometimes can, sometimes, sometimes, be met with how can you not understand this why is it so hard for you you know what i mean so it's hard to be honest sometimes um did you find it hard or easy i mean you're just i think what i heard is that you said

everybody knew you were you were new you didn't know anything so it's okay for you to say i don't understand yeah i have a really positive association with uh the truth and more and more positive as i get older. And I think if somebody has trouble with this, the first thing is to ask themselves outside of this context, do I have a positive association with the truth? And can I start to believe that the truth is good? And sometimes the truth hurts. Like if you're talking about, like, oh, like a boy doesn't want to date you anymore and it breaks your heart, that hurts. But ultimately, it's actually good to know that because it accelerates your life and you don't want to be with someone. You know what I mean? It's like, so the truth is good if you keep going.

You have to keep the camera rolling, as they say, and you have to play your life out. And the truth is always really good. And in a circumstance where you're in a team environment with one goal, which is like my whole life, team sports, making a movie, team goal, we're all trying to do something together. The truth allows your teammates to be the best teammates to you. And so if you can also trust that these are your real teammates and they want the goal too, then your honesty is crucial. to the success of the project. Right. And so I think it,

I think the real problem isn't happening in the moment. It's really having a zoomed out discussion with yourself and maturing and really believing that the truth is good. And that fear of like, oh, you didn't know this, da, da, da, da, da, da, I guess maybe don't be in rooms with people like that, because you guys weren't like that. Like you and Kevin were never going to, or if you were to, I would have been like, yeah, I don't know that. Like, because it's still the truth.

And so I'm not going to shame myself if I don't know something that I should have known. It's like, well, I just, I didn't. You know, whatever, now you do. And then, but when it comes to, like, is your scope, are you on the target? Like, I remember you guys because there's a safety, right? And you always ask, like, are you good? Was that what we said? Are you good?

Are you ready? Are you good? I don't know. Probably said a million different things. I'm good. I'm not sure. Yeah. I think it was like, yeah, you're good?

Like, can we take the safety off? Like, meaning are you on the target ready to go? Yeah. Yeah. And when I was and when I knew it, there's almost no better feeling than actually being certain. Yeah. And so I think it's also about talking to people who have trouble with the truth saying that when you do know something for sure, it's a really good feeling. Yeah.

And you'll know it when you feel it. Right. No. Did you think you were going to get a buck? No, it wasn't my goal, really. What was your goal? I mean, my goal was to participate and learn from you. And, like, I guess it was a goal because it was our goal.

But it wasn't something I would have been disappointed in because getting a buck or not didn't limit me from learning about you, your life, your craft, the values and the principles. I learned everything. I think I learned 99% of what I was going to learn before that. And so I wasn't, I didn't feel desperate. But I didn't know. Yeah, I didn't know, especially because the weather.

And you seemed like, I don't know you well enough to know like if you're like theatrically frustrated. I think that you are. I think that you like the drama of all of it, which I think is an amazing quality because you're really doing it. You're like, yeah, it's frustrating in the hunterly way. Yeah. Like, right? Yeah.

How is that frustrated? Oh, my God. You cursed us. This buck that ran away from us. You cursed the weather. You, uh, um. I don't curse. No, you were, yeah, you were using really kind language.

We didn't like have like lunch with us. So like we were eating like pringles and cupcakes. And I think that was a hard. We like were just eating everything we had. So yeah, you had like a theater to you, which only read as passionate, which was cool.

I like being around people who care. Yeah, I definitely care. Yeah. About that. So I didn't know. Okay. And also like I didn't know how unusual it was how the day was going

because I have no reference. So I was like, I can't really, I don't know. Yeah, I just don't know why this is good or bad or any in between. Yeah, I'm trying to think of, yeah, so for me personally, I wanted you on this hunt because you're so unique and you verbalize what I've done my whole life in a way I've never heard. So to me, that's, I like that.

That's exciting. I like to hear a different perspective or I like to hear things that I'm passionate about and I love explained in a way that I hadn't thought of before. And you're amazing at that. So to me, that was, I loved it. But I wanted you to experience the whole part of it just so you knew, okay, we had this goal. We had to earn these opportunities. and then we have to capitalize on this opportunity, and then if successful, the gravity of that situation too,

and then on the other side of that, the nourishment we might get from that. And I wanted all of that for you, but we had two days, which is not a long time. And that's because I think people, they probably know it more than I do, but I thought it was cool. The season is only, it's short.

It's like 30 days long, So it ends today. Today's November 7th. You got here on Wednesday, the 5th. So we had the 6th and 7th to hunt, which is, you know, and I explained to you, and I explained to Cheeto also. Most people on this hunt don't succeed. The success rate on deer with the rifle is, you know, 20-some percent.

So two out of 10 people are successful, eight out of 10 are unsuccessful. And that's with who knows how long they hunt, but they have 30 days to get it done. we had two and you had never shot a rifle and you'd never hunted. So I knew the odds were not in our favor. I needed the weather to cooperate. I needed the animals to cooperate. I needed me to make good decisions and I needed to set you up for success. That's a lot that has to come together. Those are a lot of factors, many of them outside of our control. And so I was feeling a little bit of weight. And then also I didn't want to force a situation, which knowing you now, I couldn't force you to do something you wouldn't want to do or you weren't comfortable with, but some people would. So I could potentially force a shot that would result in a wounded animal.

And the last thing I ever want, especially for a new hunter, is to know what it's like to wound an animal and not recover it and to think that animals out there suffering. and be living with that for forever. And some people, that would be the first and the last time they ever hunted because that's a terrible feeling to know you inflicted injury on something and it's suffering. So in weighing all that out, I understand

there's a responsibility that I have with taking a new hunter and potentially forcing them to make a shot they weren't ready for and the animal suffers. And the way the esteem that I hold these animals at the respect and the honor i try to um to um i just want to honor the hunt and what it means to be a hunter and also not disrespect the animals by putting somebody in position to to potentially fail and so i was trying to consider all that while trying to be um a good mentor to you

And so yeah. Yeah, and you are, and you were. And I feel like the person that you reminded me of most was when I was before the Olympics, I'm Greek-American, I go to Greece to train, and I was at an altitude camp in Greece in Carpenesi, this mountain town. And it was me and these two boys that were like basically my training partners before the games. we stayed at this bed and breakfast in like remote grease where the same guy like owned the bed and breakfast made our beds grew all the food all the animals cooked all the food like he was one man band and we ate every meal together with these boys and then we'd go train then we'd eat another meal then we'd take a nap then we'd train then we eat another meal then we'd go to sleep and we did that for a month and this is a month before I broke the national record and ran really really well at the games And we ate food that this, we ate like meat that was, was from this place we were staying. And I remember that the, because I don't know if I should call him a, he's a farmer and he's a Airbnb, or he's a bed and breakfast owner.

You know, he, you know, he told me like when he would serve the food, he's like, I, you know, I knew this rabbit. This was a good rabbit. And I thought he was being playful, but I really think he was being responsible. respectful. And I really thought it was cool to have this like closed circle experience. And to have a mindful connection. Connection. And we took those meals slow. Like the Greeks eat slow. They're thoughtful. And I think you reminded me of that a lot. And then yeah, I remember you telling me there's a big chance we don't succeed. And it was shortly before we did.

And I would, it would have been, it is what it is to me, you know, that's, but, I was just sleepy, I think. So I was like, it'd be better to do this today than another day. Yeah. I think there's something, a word you said a bunch, which is the word opportunity. And I think when you talk about pressure, I think the way to respond to pressure is to try to see these situations as opportunities rather than a place where if you don't do it, you fail. So it's really the starting point is you're looking at a bright sun ahead of you when you have a high pressure situation.

And you're like, I would love to move towards the sun. The sun is warm. It's lovely. but I think you use the word a lot. And so you seem to see this all as opportunity, even if you feel it as pressure. And that's a different way to approach pressure. Right.

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't, I never told you we were under pressure, or I was under pressure. I never tried to exhibit pressure. Normally on a hunt, what I'll say is like, I don't care what happens. I'm going to, this is going to work out. I don't care what I have to overcome.

Eventually, because I won't quit, it's going to work out. So we just needed more opportunity. If that one didn't work, good. We got to earn another one. And that's, that was all day. More opportunity. More music. More music.

Yeah. More, uh, Carly Simon. You're so vain. And then also. nine inch nails closer that's such a good song yeah yeah i think that that turned the tide

that song we got in the zone yeah we also learned i mean i learned a lot about Oregon history i learned about you know the history of the town that we were in powers like met people from the town like there's a lot about this experience that goes way beyond like the hunting yeah and i think that is

pretty cool too. I wanted to share, I know it was like nonstop, you know, babbling basically from me, but I wanted to share, you know, and I've tried to, anybody who I've talked to about this hunt, I said, I want to share with you how I grew up hunting because I'm from a small town like powers. I'm from a town where people, that's what they do. They work in the woods. It's just blue color it's there's not a ton of like like uh it's just is what it is but it's it's hard work but they have a lot of pride in it and and loggers and people who work in the woods they have a lot of pride in what they do and i love that and i want to share that so we talked about logging we talked about the timber industry we talked about the spotted owl we talked about how environmental

factors have changed logging over the years we talked about you know second growth old growth with reprood, logging units, building roads, like the art of building roads. We talked about how back in the day, those logs were extracted from the mountains on rail car by powered by coal. And so there's guys cutting wood all day to power coal engines to get logs out of the woods

to get them to the river where they'd be pushed by a barge to the mill. We talked about the history of all of them. And nobody thinks or really cares about. the men that do work like that, but they love their wood house. You know, they love the wood furniture, their wood doors, the beauty of wood, and there's a lot that goes into timber. And so I was so excited for anybody. But you remind me of when I shared, you know, where I grew up with Chris Williamson, because he's like what somebody would say is an intellectual and has a different way of interpreting that lifestyle. And that's why I love sharing it. But,

in this specifically with you, as I said, you know, as a wordsmith, you have a different way of putting things. But yeah, so I loved, it seems like a nonstop, I don't know, not a history lesson, but just sharing what's important to me and that's why I wanted that. But also, I am a hunter. So the journey of a hunter isn't to kill,

but that's part of the journey. And that's you can't finish your journey without the kill. And so to be a hunter, I think you need to be killing animal, get that meat out of the mountains, and provide to those you love. To have an explanation, or to have a period on the end of the story, to have a conclusion, we needed a buck. So tell me about that. last hunt. So we came to the place that is your favorite place. It is. And I don't know why we don't go to

your favorite place first, but I think it was because there was a journey to go through. I did not want, just like with Cheeto, I did not want the hunt to end too soon because to appreciate what it takes, we needed all the failures. Yeah. We needed all the experience. Yeah. Well, we got there and it was, I think it was raining. Yeah, it was raining. That's good in this world. And then we found an area and we were glassing, which is a new term for me. I think middle school girls should say they're glassing at the school dance if I find a hot guy.

But I guess that's a really weird thing to say. You should do like that. It's about the same. I know. So we were glassing, and I'm not the best at it, but I always try. I'm always like, okay, just try to do the thing. And then you found a buck laying in on the side of like a mountain underneath, like this log next to a neon looking tree. And I didn't see it at all with my naked eye.

I didn't see it until I was in the scope, which took me a second. because usually it's nice. If you can see something with your naked eye and then you pull the binoculars, that's more oriented for me. So it was kind of disorienting to find it only through the scope. And I guess I don't know so many things.

I don't know what 40 yards means based on the scope. Like I don't know a lot. So it was we were using descriptors that were useful. And I think it's interesting when you put yourself in a really, you know,

intense team situation. It's not about doing everything. It's about what works for the team. And so we were speaking about this neon tree and the Christmas tree and the log in terms of like helping me find where this animal was. And so I found it. And then there's a way that you want, it's, it's, uh, there's a way we were hoping the animal would be facing and there was an orientation that I would have where I would be best situated to like, be confident and be steady and be steady. And I was actually crouched down. And I'm strong, but being that crouched, sometimes you're like shaking a bit.

And so I was like, it's not that I'm going to fall. It's that I'm not steady enough to hold the, what is it called? Scope. The float. No, the float. The float. And so you made the call to switch me to sitting on my butt and having a log. On the bipod.

On the bi pod. Yeah. So we started, you were on your knees. And we had the tripod and had the gun in it. And to me that seemed like too much of a lever because we didn't like when you shot off the bench at 300 yards, the back, the stock of the rifle was supported also. So it was very secure.

In this situation with the tripod, there's a lever there. The stock of the scope was only in your shoulder but not supported. That means you can move around a lot. Then you said, well, your legs were getting tired, your back or something like that. So I was like, okay, well, because it took a little while to get that, to find that buck.

It had been like a few minutes by this time. And I was, generally, bucks don't hang around that long. And especially this time of year, they're cruising. I didn't know he had a hot dough with a dough and heat there. She was bedded. We couldn't see him. I thought he was just going to go across that hillside and be gone out of our lives. So I'm like, okay, we've got a hustle.

Are you on her? on it. I'm like, you know, where's the green tree? Green tree. Neon train. 40 yards. What's 40? You don't know what 40 yards. You know what probably 40 yards is right here, maybe in the driveway or a 40 yard dash, but not 300 yards away on the side of a hill. What is 40 yards over there? I was taking for granted. Everybody knew what references and distance and things meant, but we didn't. So that took a little bit. Then the setup wasn't perfect. So I was like, okay, I told you I said, give me a big log. I want to get her on the bipod.

So we got on the bipod, got you on your butt. Then it was, that seemed way more secure. But then we had the issue with the eye. Oh, yeah, my eye. Okay, I don't know. I got to talk to my eye doctor about this. But basically, like, when I closed my left eye, my right eye, it was like coming in and out.

Like, it was like literally blacking out and then coming back in as if I couldn't see out of it, which mightst have meant that I was trying to open my left eye or something, and then you were covering my left eye. So my eye was really, like I didn't feel, and I didn't feel freaked out. I just felt I had like a mechanical, like a doll where the eye like one's open. What is it in a toy story? There's like that's like that broken doll. Didn't Katie Perry's eye do that after she went to space?

Like on it. Yes, I felt like one of those, somewhere in the spectrum of a toy story. Yeah, I was in a toy story doll to the Katie Barry eye. And so I've really, but meanwhile, anytime I had vision it properly, I just tried to keep that step going because that step of having the, the flow in the proper place was like the step I was on, right? Everything else was situated. And so once that was like set, like no matter if my eye was coming in and out of vision, I still had the float properly. that step was like solid. And so once my vision came to,

which I think was you covering my other eye properly and just a bit of time, then I was ready. And, you know, you're ignorant enough to not know how not ready you might be. Yeah. But I was ready for a freshman. Yeah.

And I think that, that I don't know if it's like nature or nurture that like brought me to that point like to be that ready and I am interested in like the dynamic between nature and nurture because of like things I've discovered as I'm older that I wasn't raised with and losing my mom young I think there's just parts of me that are from her that I can only discover by living life and following my curiosity, which was part of wanting to meet you in person and do this together. And I think in that moment, though, yeah, I felt quite confident and as certain as I was going to be. And I think as certain as anyone would have been in that, as certain as I could

have been. And I think maybe that's what hunting is, too, is like you're as certain as you can be. there's always nature yeah there's always unpredictableness yeah yeah and um and and i was particularly thankful for the training for understanding the angles and how to like most like you know to do it in a way that was like most respectful and proper and ethical and ethical yeah yeah so i thought about that and then yeah we did it and it was and i guess uh i'm not bad yeah you're amazing so let me think covering your eye if i just was lightly pushing on your eye i could feel like trying to blink. So I had to actually push on your eyeball.

And then you're like, okay, that's good. And that would somehow kick this eye into working better. So I'm like this. And I told Kevin, because I can't like, I can't, or no, I can't do this and glass. So I'm like, I said, Kevin, watch where your shot goes. And you felt when you say I'm good, we realize that means it's on. You're ready to go. And slow squeeze, fill both stages of that trigger.

And you can hear a bullet hit. And I'm like, that's a hit. And the buck, as I said, almost immediately dead down. And it was a perfect shot. You seem reflective. What are you thinking? Well, I just have the whole, like, there's this, I don't know that this is really your audience,

but there's always that like conversation in your head of like yeah I think I just like grew in real time I think there's nothing to do with your audience I think I think to start the sentence over I think that I that I think I grew in real time because there are very few things in my life where when I say I'm good I mean it in the present, and I mean that I already have, I have certainty. So we talked about this, but I'll share again that most things in my life, when I say I can do it, I haven't done it yet. And I know you said, well, you hadn't actually done it yet, but I meant I had done everything I could do to be ready for the moment where I said I'm good. Right. And it's very cool to feel like that you are saying something with certainty because you are certain, not your 99% certain.

You're very, very certain, but like you're certain. And I did feel certain, and I think I grew in real time because I think I like the part of me that gives myself opportunities to be certain and be confident and be confident and contribute. to teams. Like, I think that that's a part of myself that I... Tell me another example of you having that certainty. I mean, there's very few... Have you ever had been that certain about something before? The only thing I could tell you is if I was already carrying something and someone said, are you good? But even then, if I was, like, carrying a heavy object across my house,

for example, if I say I'm good, I still don't actually know if I'll still be good in the next step and in the next step. this I really meant that like it had been done like the hovering like I wasn't it wasn't going to change yeah so this might be the only time you've ever been this certain I think so I mean I think I think I'm very like uh I mean I'm certain I could like finish a marathon you know but so but what if your body says no you're right you don't know yeah so this is a thing yeah this is this was certain And because there's so few opportunities to be certain like that in life, I guess, we probably aren't used to it.

And so it could probably trick us. And humans may not let themselves feel certainty because we so infrequently do. Yeah. Or, yeah, we don't know what it's like. Yeah, we don't know what it's like. Yeah, you were saying, yeah, that feeling of, yeah, like of confidence and of, I mean, I just kept feeling like a rascal, which is like who I really feel like I am in life. Because you've said that a number of times.

What is a rascal to you? Oh, I'm a rascal. A rascal is like, oh man, a gamer. A rascal's a gamer. A rascal, like, just kind of doesn't, like, my rascal self, like, is my heart is good and does what it takes, but is, like, it's fundamentally good. So, like, even if it's mischief, it's good mischief. Okay.

So I think rascals are like good. Yeah. They're up to something, but it's not mischievous. Yeah, it's like I know you say you're not book smart, but in a midsummer night's dream, the Shakespeare play, there's a character called Puck. Puck is mischievous good. So Puck like switches the love potions and causes all this chaos.

And that's kind of like the kind of mischief I like to get into. And that's sort of the rascal energy. A rascal's not afraid to get dirty and be in the mud and do what it takes. the rascal is probably going to fall down and get scabs. The rascal has other people's back. The rascal will say yes till they can't anymore. And I think a rascal's pretty honest. Yeah, yeah.

Well, so you were certain. I wasn't certain. And when you shot, I was like, I'm like, I had to be convinced that I saw what I saw because it was perfect. And I'm like, looking, I'm like, Is that buck? That is that is it he laying right there? So I took off like I don't know as fast as I can sprint all the way around all the way down to the other landing to get a better angle and sure is anything that bucks laying there dead.

I mean you just it was immediate perfect perfect shot absolutely perfect shot. What I remember what I will never forget is because I took off sprinting and was gone. and then you get here you and kevin come coming down the road and like from maybe a hundred yards i'm i like go like this and then i go like this like a like a hug and you is like sprinted for a hundred yards and freaking full speed into me and we hugged and i'm like you got your first buck and that was like probably one of the most beautiful moments for sure in hunting because hunting is usually just a guy thing but it's like that moment um How did that feel?

I was proud, relieved, happy. I was a lot. I was a lot. It was a beautiful moment. But also surprised because that is a 260-yard shot on your butt, on a bipod of a wild animal that's moving. And you absolutely was perfect. That was amazing. Well, yeah, I still think I have to, like, process it for a bit because there's like an athletic side of me that's like, hell yeah, like it's good.

I'm competitive like you are, so it's nice to be good at something. And then there's a part of you that wants to be included and feels, I mean, look, it's a tradition. and I didn't like grow up with so many traditions. And so like when I get welcomed into a tradition, which has happened in a handful of times in my life, it's really special for me. Yeah. Like your family, like raised you.

Like it's like I respect that these, these are like, this is important to you and that there's a whole community and that. So to feel like included, I don't know, I think there's also. kind of an orphan energy in my rascalness. Right.

Wanting to belong. Yeah, wanting to belong. And like, I'm trying to like live a really big, brave life and not because I want to be different. I don't even want to be what I am, but I am what I am. And I think that I have no choice but to be me. And that makes me a rascal because I think it's a combination of circumstance. and my whatever nature inside.

Are you emotional? Yeah. Well, because it is like being included makes me feel like I can go be my like rascal self and I have like a friend in you and I also like have this whole world that I know kind of is going to do this whether I'm a part of it or not, right? And I imagine you like being in the woods and living your big awesome life and I know you're there even if I can't see you. That's like a metaphor in literal. And then to know that I like, I don't know, it's just something like really cool about knowing that you have sort of a little, you're a little bit of part of a very rich community and a person that you really admire.

And when we did go down and see the book, you were very, very. slow and thoughtful about talking about how much this means and the respect and the process and the ritual and I really understood it like fully and I think that what's hard is like I don't know that I can articulate to other people that I'm going to go talk to as well as you can but I hope that people understand you know your perspective on it because I certainly did by being around you. Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, I mean, there's there's a weight to killing. Yeah. It's, I talked about when I first started hunting, I didn't understand that. I was young.

But now I understand, you know, it's life, it's death. It's, you know, we can't be here without causing death. Hunters take that literal and we provide and we kill. And that's what, hunting is. But people kill every day to survive, but they don't do it personally. They pay somebody to do it for them. And people will say, well, you could be a vegan, you could do that. And, you know, we always talk about this. I've talked about it at ad nauseum. It doesn't matter what you do. You're causing death. But I respect somebody who can take ownership over that and literally have blood on their hands and say, yes, I did this and it's, there's a lot of gravity and there's a lot of, this is very meaningful and an animal died by my hands. Even just saying that is hard for people.

Even just acknowledging that is hard for most people. Hunters do it and it is a tradition. And we wouldn't be here if our ancestors didn't hunt. And people say, well, that was a, That was a time long ago. It's like, well, no, because I've done it my whole life. So that's time right now. And also for this whole thing to work, as I explained to you, we saw two bear, you know, right, not far from your kill. If, say if we didn't, if we didn't kill deer,

there would be, there has to be a balance. And hunters are the only ones who can understand that balance. and everything has to work together. It's a harmony out there. And all I know is that I was, man is hunted since the beginning of time. We still do it. And to do it correctly, I think, is how life is supposed to be lived. Does everybody need to hunt?

No, you don't have to. Do you have to understand why hunting is important and necessary in what it means to this fabric? of humanity. You can understand that. You don't have to do it, but you can understand it. So all I know, we, you made a great shot, that animal didn't suffer. We honored the animal, and we're going to honor the animal. You're going to honor it forever by having that memory on the wall with those antlers. We have the meat. We took great care of the meat. The meat was perfectly clean. This morning, we had backstraps and tenderloins and potatoes and eggs, and it was amazing. We're getting the rest of the meat processed and you're going to eat it and you're going to

share it with your community. That's what it means to be a hunter. A hunter is a provider. We've always been providers in our community. Not everybody hunts, but everybody relies on hunters to provide. And when a hunter is successful, the community rejoices because we have something to eat. You're a hunter, you're a provider. And you understand what that means. and that was an honor to share that with you. You're a really great friend and a great coach, and I think I'll be absorbing it for a long time, just what we talked about,

because you don't really have the words for everything you feel, so I think I don't have all the words. But I'm going to try to go a little slower. The holidays are coming, and I think some of what I like about that, time is like to be able to like slow down a little bit and absorb the enormity of my experiences because otherwise I think we can have opportunities to grow and we can stay the same and I think I'll you know I think I've done a lot of growing this year but I could do I could reflect and let

it be more real um and I appreciate you because like I definitely like ask a lot of questions you know and like I definitely am aware of like the contradiction in like even you know some people I know are so like they eat meat for most of their meals but they don't they don't want to like participate in hunting and I get that but once you talk to them it's like I think once they learn that it's so different than yeah like the animals in captivity the lives I mean you didn't even have us you were made sure that it had to be an old, an old buck. You didn't mention that. But you're very like certain that these animals live their full wildlife and then don't get like mauled by another animal, I guess,

is one of the alternatives. Well, if it's not death by a bullet or an arrow, it's going to be slow and painful. There is no other type of death in the wild. They're not getting struck by lightning very often. Probably has happened, but it's not generally how it goes. generally it's starving or a bear or a lion, lots of lions in this country. And it's going to be, and there's no compassion in the wild. So as I said, you know,

it's going to be much slower and more excruciating if it's not by the hand of a hunter. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. And, yeah, nature, Mother Nature is undefeated is what Kevin, said. Yeah, that's a fact. Yeah, I still think I got to think about that one. Yeah. We react to

Mother Nature. We have no say in it. Well, and I got to know you. And I think that's like really, really awesome. Like we're like, I don't think we're unlikely friends actually in the end of the day, but definitely like thankful that there was a way for us to like do something together that let me spend time with you and like really understand how you grew up and you're just like very generous in a way that like with with telling those stories and like people you don't have to share this you could just do it and sharing it means that I get to get to know you well I feel very lucky yeah I feel very lucky for the time we spent and to be able to introduce you into this tradition of hunting It's, this enriches my life, you know, more than I could put into words because I know like 10 words and how I feel is outside of those 10.

So, yeah, this has been amazing. I can't think of a more enjoyable hunt I've had recently. So I'm very, very thankful for you. You're an amazing person. You're an incredible young lady. and it's it was yeah it was great but James has some questions for you too okay we call him the peanut gallery okay these are going to seem out of place okay great you guys did answer a couple of them but okay okay well first we have a tradition

of a certain question and it is definitely will be much different than our discussion It is a f-mary kill. Have you heard of that? Oh, yeah. Wow. I've never played this game. Okay. I have a more wholesome audience.

Yeah. What's the opposite of wholesome? That's our audience. Yeah. Okay. I can do that. Okay. Yeah, yeah, okay.

Let's see how varied you are. Okay, let's, okay. Your F***a-Marry kill is film. What? Film, writing. and running. Okay, oh wait, but I've never played the game before.

Okay, so is it just random? No, so, my God. So Mary, you're there, you're with that thing for the rest of your life. Oh, okay. So fuck is for fun. It's like a one-night hookup. Oh my God. And kill is, you're done with it forever.

Oh, what? Yeah. But you gave me three words that I would. No, you have to choose. That's a game. So you have to make. make a decision. What are you going to do for the rest of your life? What are you doing like a one-night fling and what are you never doing again of those three? What? I can't I'm I I can't do that.

You can. You're going to have to. You have to actually. But I'm a multi-hypon it. So I'm going to do them all. Maybe this ketone will help. Okay, Michael Ketones. Michael Brandt Ketons. Michael Brandt Ketons. Okay. Please give her strength, bring strength right now. No, I don't want to do this. You have to. It's the game. We actually can't let you out of here until you answer it. Okay, well, here's the thing. Okay, I know I'm smart enough to say that I've tried to kill running so I can say kill and it won't be dead. So running, I can say kill because it will never die. Ha, ha, ha.

And then, um, fuck. Wait, that's. Yeah. Because I didn't know if it had a positive or negative association. Positive. No, you said, oh. But it's a one night. stand.

So kill is running because it will never die. No, kill you're done with forever. She's trying to cheat the game. I'm telling you it won't die. I can't kill running. What do you want to do for the rest of your life of those three? That's a merry. But I know I will run and write for the rest of my life.

No, you won't. Not after this game. Don't curse me. I don't want to be cursed on this game. It's just a game. It's for fun. Yeah, but I take everything seriously. I know you do.

I know, no, no, no. You're going to learn something about me. I take it very seriously. Like, yesterday I was, like, fully immersed in that world. Okay, listen. I'm getting fucked up because of this. How about, okay, listen. I hate this.

Let's change this game. No, I want to be myself. I'm going to say kill running, it will never die. So I'm saying kill running because it will never die. All right. I know it. It's a ghost. It's everywhere.

Okay. Kill running. It will never die. And then fuck is the one night thing. Yeah. Okay, fuck movies. Because, uh, because, um, because, I have a really big one that I'm about to make,

and then maybe I'll move on to the television world. Who knows? Okay, now we're talking. See this is a game. Okay, I'm smart. And then marry writing, because, yeah, I'll never stop writing. Okay.

And that one I do need to marry because it won't come back to life. Like, if you don't write every day, here's for the Cameron Haynes listeners. I want to be a writer in secret. You got to do it every day. It's a practice. You are a writer.

Where's your book? It's back there. Oh, Braveie. Yeah. Get, get, yeah, blow my shit up, Kim. Get a lecture. So I guarantee people who listen to this will be like, holy shit, I want to learn more about this, this girl. She's amazing.

Right there. Read Braveie. Camera 17. I'm reading, I'm writing a new one right now too. Okay, what's the next question? Okay. Something about being a verb and not a noun. It might be called like, I'm a verb, non-the-nown, not sure.

Okay. Yeah, it's about change. Oh, nice. Yeah. Okay. I'm excited. There's so much shit about my life that nobody knows. It should be called becoming.

mean a hunter. What's the next question? This is not really a reoccurring theme, but we've talked about it because there's a inside story. But I read somewhere that one of your kind of hobbies is you like to do improv comedy. So we want to know what your Kill Tony Minute is. I don't know what that is. So Kill Tony is Tony is Tony Hitchcliff.

He's a comedian. He pulls names out of the hat. and they get on stage for one minute, and then they critique the minute. So do you have a minute bit you can tell us? Like, I have to do a bit for you? Yeah, right down. Go. This is not a good segment for me.

Make us laugh. Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, here's the thing. That's not what improv comedy is. This is a sketch comedy. I'm not a sketch comedian, but I'll try.

Okay. Your book is called Braveie, so that means you're brave. Yeah, I guess I'm brave. Okay, well, I had, okay, let me just think for a second. You're a funny guy. Tell a joke. I know, it's the worst. I'm not, I'm really not that funny. I'm really not.

I'm really not. Well, I've, I, something about like how I didn't do any of the normal things that 20 year olds did growing up because I was training really, really hard for the Olympics. So while you were doing X, I was doing Y, meaning while you were doing X to see you going to Burning Man, I was at the YMCA lifting weights. Okay. Okay. That's my joke. I don't want to put that on the end.

I'm so bad. I hate this. No, that was actually, so we just got to kind of tighten it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not bad. I like it. While you're doing X, I was just the Y. Right.

Meaning while you were doing ecstasy and hanging out of your friends and sleeping around and doing normal 20-year-old things, I was at the YMCA, lifting weights. That's good. Good. Wow. Okay. All right. Last one.

Uh-huh. This one's more serious. I love this segment. Oh, no, I can't be. Okay. Yeah, we're fine. Okay. It's like I can't be like wearing my sponsor today saying all this.

This is not good. Okay. If we have to, we can take those out. This one's a good one, I promise. Okay. All right. So again, we've kind of talked about, well, I mentioned it once, how people like to identify as whatever hobby they're into or even their job.

Uh-huh. Like, I'm a runner, I'm a climber, I'm a carpenter. And you talk about depression after the Olympics and kind of finding out who you are outside of running. So how important do you think it is to know yourself at a core level without the tangible outside things? A hundred percent, you are not. I actually don't even know if I agree with you saying that you're a hunter. I think you hunt. Because I don't even think I'm, I mean, I guess I'm a runner, I'm a rhiner, and I'm a, no, no.

But I'm just Alexi. Yeah. And I think you're just Cam. And you hunt. And I know it's, this is in contradiction to everything you say. Right. But it helps me a lot to know that I'm a Lexi. And that anything I do is just what I do.

And what's nice for me is that that means that anything I choose to do every day is a real present choice. It wasn't just like a continuation of yesterday. So if I pick up and I'm writing today, I'm not writing because I'm a writer. I'm writing because I write. And so. But I don't do anything else but a hunt. Yeah, but you're still Cameron Haynes. No.

Yes, you are. You are such a unique and vibrant human that is, you do a lot more than hunt. You just don't think you do a lot more than hunt. you're like a very much more than a one descriptor. That's a big way you spend your time and what you're thinking about. But I think you're like... This is my podcast. You can do this on your podcast.

I know these people are, yeah. Your audience hates me. You're screwing me over. Okay, well, so it's really important that people have something outside of their... Yeah, that's a great point. That's a great point. It's just not true for me. But yes.

We're not getting a lot. long anymore. It's really important to, yeah, have these other. Hey, this is our first speed bump in our relationship. No, I don't even care to be right. You can be an hunter if you want. I just see you as, I see you as your name because I think that's the right thing to do as your friend. Because what if you came to me and you're like, what if you came to me and you are challenged, like, I need to just like embrace you as just human campaigns. first.

I need to see you as like just you. Okay. That's the best way for, I don't know. I don't know. Oh, because it lets you, I think it's a kind way to let you evolve and change. Like you'll probably hunt forever, but you don't even know who you're going to be in 10 years. And I'm sure you'll still be hunting, but. I'll probably be dead.

I'm so old. No. You keep saying you're old and like stupid. You have a body dysmorphia. Like, do what I mean? Like, that's not very supportive. Oh, sorry. You have an inaccurate view of yourself.

I'm, yeah. I thought these quick fries were going to be like spaghetti or meat sauce or like whatever, like blue or red or something like silly. Okay. Okay, we can switch gears then. Sorry. Do you want to redo all of them? No. What's the dentist's favorite time of the day?

Tooth hurdy. 2.30. There's nothing to do with me. That's that, okay, we can leave that. Well, we're leaving all these in. These are good. No, no, it's not good. They're really good.

So I'm going to, since you're a hunter now, I'm going to read some comments that we got on when I was packing out your buck. And I want to get, because I don't think you understand the whole hunting crowd. I'm not saying. No, I don't. You're right. I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm saying they're misguided, maybe sometimes.

Okay, so I want to get your opinion on a comment or a couple comments. Let's see. This is all positive so far. Let's go. Hammers, that's good. This guy says, do you feel, dress them first to reduce weight a little? And then somebody says, absolutely if you're not afraid of a little blood on your back. So what they're saying is that like I didn't gut it out.

Like remember when I took the guts out? I said I didn't do that because I was afraid of blood. What do you say to that? That you had blood all over yourself. Yeah. And that you did gut it. And one of the reasons why you gut it is because other animals can eat that. Yeah.

Those bear that we saw, we're going to probably eating the guts right now. They're eating the guts. And then you carried it up the steepest hill I've ever climbed. on my own feet and hands. Okay, well, this is another one. Somebody said, I don't know how the hell you do that. That's incredibly hard, blah, blah, blah.

And somebody said, lots of brakes. Like I took lots of breaks. Tell me about the brakes. No, the light was disappearing. There was no break at all. And in fact, you could have stopped like 400 meters earlier and pulled the car up, but you didn't want to do that. So I would have had to take many breaks, but you didn't take any.

Okay. Let's see. Oh, I'm like responding to these people factually. Like, you also just want to be like, no, like trolls are going to be trolls. Are they, do they listen to this podcast? Yeah. Do you think so? Normally your biggest haters listen and watch everything you do.

Really? They're obsessed. But anyway. Wow. So this guy says, haters only talk shit because they can't do it. Then this other guy says, what's the purpose of caring what you don't have to?

And then somebody said, for views, all he cares about is views. So tell me, did I say, film me so we can get a bunch of views? Did you hear me say that? Well, no, you didn't say that. But also, like, can people stop, like, hating on people, like, who have like a social media presence and aren't like like are have a good heart and are paying their bills in our sponsor like what is the do you know what I mean you do this on principle

you will carry out no matter what if there's a camera or not what what was our option there do you think oh we didn't have driven there no no we actually didn't have another option right oh yeah they said if they don't have to yeah you did have to do. I think people think that you have like 80 people with you at all times. Maybe. Because there are some like like really big, um, public people who do have like a, like an entourage with them at all time. But I don't think an entourage could keep up with you. Yeah. I could barely keep up with you. Um, let's see. What about the tick and fleas jumping onto you now? What do you say about that? So you tried to remove as many ticks as possible, and then we had to do a full tick check in the rain.

Yeah. And then you had to do another tick check when we got back to the house before showering. And so you are running the risk of ticks. Yeah. But did we have any on us? No. We were actually, yeah, we were great. Okay.

Let's see. I think there's one more here. I should be able to find something. um feel dress at first yes we did field dress it i don't know what they expect to see but uh it must be nice uh here we are check yourself for ticks um no i'm good i'll take the meat in a pack and the head so they're saying like i could have done something i guess we could have broke it down there but to me i'm like why when i can just carry it right um oh yeah this says right out of, yeah, out of the camera view is the ATV.

No ATV. We were like in the middle of nowhere. There was three of us and one of them was a fairy. So, yeah, anyway, I wanted to, that's the kind of comments that we get sometimes. Like, people are just, yeah, so I thought since you were like, aren't in this world, you'd give a very honest review of how it went. But, yeah, I mean. These people.

I just want to give you a hug. No, kicking the balls, you meant. I mean, is that what you meant? I mean, I guess, like, I don't have that kind of, like, aggressive thoughts right now, but I, like, no, because someone, they would beat me back up. They would, like, I would, like, you're an athlete. No, I just genuinely think that, um,

they're idiots. Um, they're just uncomfortable. Yeah. So if they're uncomfortable, I'm just joking. Yeah, I want them to have a good life and like, me too. And maybe take a more abundant perspective and just try and like, it's not a scarcity. Like, it's, you're opening people's eyes up that they could do what you're doing to if they feel compelled to.

Right. So you're not saying that you can do it and they can't. I've never said that. You actually are trying to get people to kind of follow suit or invite them to. Yeah. Yeah, I would. Oh, did you have a thought? I know.

Yeah, here's what I have to say to you people. The haters are, they're, what's the word? Hold on. It's, um. Yeah, fuck. No, no, no. It's like they're, it's not the word cliche, but it's like that. Like they're a trope.

Like they're being exact in their role. They're playing themselves perfectly. And it's kind of predictable. And that, I think, is sort of lame. Yeah, because who wants to be predictable? Yeah, it's like they're being a cliche. Yeah. They're being a cliche.

Do they realize that? No, hell no. Do you think they know what cliche means? Yeah. Oh. I think they do. Do I? I'm not.

What does cliche mean? It means like they're being what you would think a hater would be. Right. like it's not a nuanced perspective if a hater was actually like showing some respect or some i don't know i don't know i'm trying to like i should just give them a hug yeah no i mean i don't it's it's all good i understand it's like as i explained to you hunting is you know it's a male dominated endeavor and there's there's egos involved and there's everybody feels like um it's like a well have you heard maybe you haven't heard of this,

but it's a dick measuring contest sometimes for some people. Like they think somebody's success is a personal indictment on them. And it has nothing to do with them. It's like we had a great day. I had to get the buck up the hill. I feel like I prepare every day to do that. I told you, I said I'm good at one thing

and that's carrying heavy things up a mountain. And so I'm just doing what I do. And it's like, I'm not trying to say, you can't do it or you shouldn't do it or I'm just I'm just showing my life I shared an amazing day with you and that's just part of it and we we let you in on it and because it was incredible that's all I'm not saying you have to love it or hate it but it's not fake I mean there's it's a hundred percent real every second of the day and it wasn't like we never said anything we didn't film hardly anything or we took a few photos but it's like this is just a beautiful

experience and yet here's a few clips from it yeah i think if people understood that you don't have to do any of it but you're choosing it then they would like you're not a desperate person no so if they could just understand that like cam haines is not desperate then they might see all of your behaviors a little bit differently as i said it's it's men are competitive and sometimes that competition elicits different emotions. I should say that. Nice. Well, I find that very entertaining.

Well, I find you entertaining, so thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Cam. And sorry, I'm not a better comedian. I thought your joke was good. I liked it. I liked the delivery of it because it was like, that was. Yeah, you're just,

I like your humility. I like your, yeah, it was just fun. I'm not good at everything. I know he put that in there and just so you guys didn't know, I was good at this, I'm not good at this. Right, that's why we did.

Makes people best times have to be. Actually, that was scripted. Yeah, yeah. You didn't want people to be too intimidated by you, so you had to show you, like, struggling with something. Is that what, that was on purpose? Yeah, like, give me a joke that I can't tell.

Oh my God. Well, thank you, Alexi. This was, I had a great talk. with you. I can't wait to come down to L.A. and do your podcast and go on a run and, yeah. And do the Burning Man Ultramarathon together. And do that too. Yeah, we're going to do it all. But yeah, again, thank you. This has been great. And thanks for everybody for listening. Check out Alexi. Check out her book. She is one of a kind. And you'll learn that once you find out more about her. Read Bravely. Thank you.

Bye. My pace. I am Roy Tuff. I am the change. The fuel in dirt. Feltin like Cam Hanks.