Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 160 - Benji Backer

Episode Date: December 2, 2025

Benji Backer - Founder & CEO of Nature is Nonpartisan, the largest right-of-center environmental organization in the country. In this powerful and wide-ranging conversation, Cam sits down with Benji Backer to discuss politics, leadership, the environment, and finding common ground in a divided world. From death threats and conspiracy theories to public land sell-offs, affordable housing, screen time’s impact on mental health, and the future of American conservation, this is one of the most honest and thoughtful political discussions you’ll hear this year. Whether you’re left, right, or somewhere in between, this conversation proves that love for nature and clean communities can unite us all. Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes  Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/  Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com  Follow Benji: https://www.instagram.com/benjibacker/  Timestamps: 00:00:00 – Getting into Politics, Death Threats, and a Love for the Environment 00:09:06 – The Government's Approach to Leadership & Their Focus on Social Media 00:15:37 – Senate Caucuses, Conspiracy Theories, and Corruption in the Government 00:24:26 – Van Jones, the Best Advice Benji Has Gotten, and the Public Land Sell Offs 00:31:54 – Public Land Sales, Affordable Housing, and the Importance of Connection to Nature 00:46:16 – Screen Time, Depression, and Rewarding Leaders with an Environmental Plan 00:50:34 – Discussions with People Outside Your Circle 00:58:26 – Aaron Rodgers: Respect for Someone That’s Always Evolving 01:02:53 – United by Nature, Trump on Public Lands Stance, and The Big Beautiful Bill 01:12:40 – Improving the Health and Cleanliness of our Communities 01:16:51 – Mineral and Energy Extraction, Mining, and Climate Change 01:25:35 – Environmentalism and Climate Change & Finding Truth in the Movement 01:30:27 – Earning Trust While Building a Movement 01:34:36 – Making a Difference Without Pushing an Agenda 01:37:51 – Final Thoughts

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Every comment hate that mocking. Saying the way that I'm moving so reckless. That is a part of my mind. I've been blessed with giving my blood so I am relentless. All right. This is a Keep Hammering Collective with Benji Backer. What's up? That's a good name.

It is. Thanks, Mom and Dad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no. So normally kids hate their name, but you got a good one. I got Benjamin first. Yeah. And then I was like, Ben's too basic.

Got to go with Benji. And then everyone's like, oh, can't wait until you change that when you become an adult. And I'm like, I'm not changing it. So I don't know. I don't know why you guys like plans for me. But yeah. It's going to be Benji until the day I die. Okay.

Well, it's good to have you here, Benji. Great to be here. Yeah, I've been seeing what you've been up to out there. Right now, the public lands are in the news. I mean, I don't know if you saw, did you see 60 minutes the other day? Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a thing. So people are talking about it.

What's, uh, how did you get involved? Well, I first got involved like most of us did with the public lands the first time, which is just recreating in them from childhood. I grew up in Wisconsin, we were talking about before this, but conservative vegans were my, for my family. So very strange dynamic, but, you know, my parents were entrepreneurs. capitalists and built a business when I was growing up and every weekend we would spend in the outdoors fishing in the lakes of Wisconsin hiking camping just looking at wildlife and being part of

nature was was a huge part of my upbringing and so I just couldn't believe that there are people who didn't want to protect those places or conserve those places and so that kind of fast forwards to where we were a few months ago which you were super helpful in helping us stop. But really, this love of the environment and also early love of politics was kind of how I got to where I am today. I, in high school, started campaigning for candidates. And my parents were not political at all. It just was like a random interest that I had. Yeah, why? I had hurt my ankle, and I was on crutches for a year. So I couldn't play sports. And my parents were always about, like you got to be productive, you got to be doing things.

And I was like, how am I going to spend my time if I'm not playing sports? So it was actually the 2008 presidential election was the first election that really inspired me. And I was watching the debate and I was like, man, I want to volunteer for candidates and be part of the process. So I started door knocking and phone calling very quickly started getting news stories about that. Spoke at CPAC, this big conservative event, my freshman year of high school. Charlie Kirk saw that and this was before he started Turning Point and he was like

hey we should team up and start Turning Point USA which was his idea and he wanted me to be a part of the founding team so I was and even though we kind of grew apart in recent years just due to like my focus on the environment and his focused on

his continued focus on the conservative side of things it was a really important moment in my life because for a second Second, I was doing a lot of news media when he wasn't. And I had a news hit that broke, that got me death threats from my own high school colleagues. And I didn't know who they were. They were calling me on my landline.

They were texting or they were tweeting from anonymous accounts. But they were from my high school. Like other kids? Other kids. And my family almost had to move outside of the city. It was so bad just because of my political beliefs. and Charlie and a few others were really the only people who were there for me because in high school it's all about who's in and who's out of the clique right yeah and if you're like kid getting death

threats yeah you're not in the click no and I really realized at a young age how nasty politics could be how few friends you're going to have if you stand up for what you believe in and charlie is one of those first people who is there for me so you combine the love of the environment that my parents instilled with this political activism and you end up with where I am now which is trying to basically recreate the conservation movement culturally in America again. There really isn't one. It sort of showed itself for a second there in June with the proposed public land sell-off. And I'm hoping that that catalyzes it into the next generation, which we can talk about more. Yeah. Well, that's a, you've had, I mean, for as young as you are, like I saw a clip,

I think on Megan Kelly from 12 years ago. You're like a little kid. I have bearded her hair. You looked like Justin Beaver. But you're like a little less handsome, but I don't know how you can, can you sing. I can actually. We're not going to do that today. But there are some dark web, well, dark web as in my dad's old YouTube account of me singing. So if someone finds that, kudos to them on that. But yeah, I saw.

Yeah, I saw. So from 12 years ago, a kid in high school that was, I think that was about faculty. didn't like your political. I think you were conservative at that time. I don't know if you still are, but that was like the Tea Party movement. I remember that back then. I mean, what I remember about 2008, I think was that when Palin was in it. Yeah, it was McCain-Pelan. Yeah. So it's, yeah, I remember that and I'm a lot older than you, but haven't always paid attention to politics. So I was paid attention to that one. And then, of course, everyone's since. But you're right, politics. I mean, has it ever been so toxic? And I hate that word too, but so toxic that you

thought about, what am I doing? Maybe I need to just step back instead of dealing with all this hate and negativity just for standing up what you believe in for what you believe in. And even like Charlie, you get, some people get killed for what they believe in. And you had death threats. You know, people have all these stories about this. Is it worth it? Right. It does. doesn't feel worth it, which is why I kind of pivoted to conservation and the environment. Because also what I've found is that when you are focused on the issues that divide everybody and inflame everybody, I'm not really sure we get to the answers that we need on the topics that we care about.

Like since politics has become more and more divisive, more and more toxic, if you want to use that word, we've gotten less done. The country's worse off. The issues have gotten worse, and they're now even harder to solve. And then we think that playing the same game of trying to say their evil or their evil is going to solve anything, it doesn't. And I'm not sure at one point our country realizes that this vitriol we have towards each other actually is the sole thing that's holding us back. So when I saw these death threats come through from my own peers, like these are not random people. These are from my high school friends or people that knew, you know, were close with me in high school, who just turned on me.

be as my political beliefs, I was like, I don't want to feed into that. That doesn't mean I'm justifying what they were saying. But I want to start looking at how do we actually solve problems. And I'm not going to solve every problem. So why don't we try to focus on some one issue that I care the most about, which is the environment? And what I've found is that there's actually even more alignment across ideological spectrums than you would think. Like the, as you can probably tell by the way I look, like I'm kind of the weak environmentalist conservationist, I'm the guy who's hiking and skiing and kind of that sort of recreationist. The people who are like me want to protect and conserve the environment in the same way

that somebody like you who goes out there and shoots big game and spends time recreating a totally different way wants to do. Like you have the same passion I do. It just is exhibited in a different way. And that is not how we are showing up politically right now. And our adversaries love it. China and Russia love that we're doing this right now. I mean, now we can see that they're all over Twitter and we've been kind of been pushed by these people to hate each other.

But I keep going back to this hatred towards each other because this country was built off of people who were willing to sit down at the table and have tough conversations of each other. And we can't even go to the same Thanksgiving dinner with their family anymore. And it is breaking our country in half. So I don't think that the division is worth it. That's why I don't try to take personal attacks anymore. you know, there's really no reason to make this a warfare. We're too, we should be evolved as a species enough to know that like literally killing somebody over a disagreement is not what helps us solve problems.

In fact, it makes everything worse. And until we realize that I think our country is going to continue to struggle, and I, right now don't believe that our country's headed in the right direction until we figure that out. Yeah. Is it, do you think our current? leadership can change the way they approach things because, you know, the first time, you know, I, and I've said, I campaign for Trump in 20, I think it was 2020 now that I'm thinking of it. And just because I didn't like, and 2016, I voted for him, but I didn't like the way the

country was going on the other side. And so I'm like, well, maybe this isn't perfect. And then he was into the mean tweets and people made a big deal about, about that. I didn't really care. But now you get down, so what, eight, 12 years down the road, or eight years down the road, and you're like, are we still doing this? Or he's kind of scaled back on the mean tweets and the whatever, but he has his moments. And it's, you know, if I'm thinking about it personally, I want a strong leader. I want the other countries to respect our leadership. I don't think that was happening with Biden. Do I, am I crazy about the mean tweets? Is that? No, but I don't care, but it's like, is this still the best way to do it? Can we, you said we're an involved

species. Can we just like be more professional and respectful and have discussion? It's like, it doesn't seem like that's too much to ask. I don't think it should be, but it is for most politicians right now. And I would say that we're complicit in that. I mean, you look at, I kind of was thinking about this this morning on my run, which I was like, I don't think I can hang with you, so I'm going to run by myself. And I was thinking, about the fact that during 2020, during COVID, remember those TikTok videos of the doctors and everyone's like, what are you guys doing? Like, shouldn't you be like talking to patients and not filming TikTok videos? That was like one year of the medical world. That's been the last

20 years of politics. Right. Our leaders are more concerned about TikTok videos, Twitter, Instagram, getting attention, than they are solving problems. Like, I don't want to call it certain politicians, but when's the last time you saw your favorite senator who you know, you know, a famous senator on either side, get something actually done? Yeah. And if you can think of one or two, that's still not good enough. No. Right?

And then, you know, the other argument to that would be like, oh, we don't want the government solving problems. Well, the government's involved in everything right now. And when they refuse to act, we are all losers. That's why inflation's worse. That's why affordability is worse. that's why our environment's getting worse. And instead of worrying about getting attention,

they should be worried about solving problems. And that's why, like, you don't see me with this, like, massive social media following because what I try to do every day is, like, most of my day is spent talking to leaders trying to figure out how do we get cleaner water? How do we get cleaner air? How do we get better recreation for people? How do we make sure that we have a forest that we can actually hunt in for the next generation? Right?

Like that's that's not sexy Instagramable TikTokable work And the people who I work with on that in the Senate or around the country and the NGOs there's some amazing NGOs out there doing it too They're not famous Yeah, and I think that's the that's the problem though is that we're rewarding the worst actors for their behavior And those people tend to be come the faces of politics and that's the worst thing that could happen to this country Yeah you know, they are rewarded by the clickbait, the, you know, AOC.

Mm-hmm. She looks good. She's like got a big personality. She says crazy things. And now she's like a presidential candidate conceivably. Mom Dhani is too. Yeah. So it worked.

Yeah. It worked. It does work. I mean, it's like it shouldn't work. And can we get something more productive to your point? But it works. Right. And it's just, it's.

I don't know. I don't know. I think it's like we need to hold our politicians not by what they say, but what they do. Yeah. And for those who've been following AOC, I would ask them, what has she actually done? Right. And I would ask people who follow like Ted Cruz, what is he actually done? And look, you can like them. And they might be good people.

I don't know either of them personally. So it's not a personal attack, but it's like, does that model of leadership actually work? Is that leadership or is that selfishness? Are you putting yourself and your brand first? Are you putting the country first? And I do think to put your country first, you have to have some outcomes. And as a people, we have to be better at saying what are our leaders doing and stop seeing politics as entertainment, but as a means to an end for how to take care of the country. That's what it is.

It's not about us versus them. Yeah, I'd 100% agree with that. I'm so burnt out on even the parties, the parties, the politicians, the party. politics, all this. That's why I like you have... The outdoors. That's why I like the outdoors. I like the outdoors, but I also like what you're doing with the focus on nonpartisan. Partisan, partisan. Partisan. But that's like, isn't that your organization, what's it called? Nature is nonpartisan. Okay, perfect.

It's exactly what it sounds like. I like that. It's, and then I think you were back in D.C., and I thought that I saw that you were with was a four senators from each side. And yeah, that's, I mean, perfect. Because right now, where I get frustrated is, you know, I've voted Republican forever and whatever. I don't even know. I know why I did before now.

I don't even know that makes any difference because I can't stand either side. But there are good people on either side. Yes. Like I know there's a Martin, is it? Heinrich. Yeah, in New Mexico, right? He's awesome.

Yeah. And he's, he's a Democrat. So normally back in, you know, years ago, I'd be like, no, screw that guy. Wrong side, blue, right? Now I could care less. He seems, he seems like he's fighting the good fight. He is.

I like Zinky in Montana. And I don't, people, they say, well, you know, what's he really up to? What's this, that? I don't know. It seems like he's fighting for public lands from my perspective. I worked with him when he was in Interior, Secretary of Interior. I had a position there. seemed he seemed legit to me and and so just i say all that to say i don't really care what side

and that's why i liked seeing what you were doing and i thought that was important work and how's how's that going yeah so our so just to give context there's this thing in the senate called caucuses and it's basically like a little committee group on a specific topic so there's one on like skiing there's one on um there's a hunting and fishing caucus there's a caucus under different topics. And we started one on stewardship. So it's kind of the blend of public lands, private lands, conservation, clean air, clean water, recreation, and a little bit of hunting and fishing too in partnership with that other caucus. So we got four Republicans and four Democrats to show up during the middle of a government shutdown to kick this thing off. And it's amazing because

they are a going to accelerate good policies for conservation, which we need desperately. Forest fires are getting worse. Our recreation access is getting worse. Our forests are less maintained. Our grasslands are less maintained. Everything's just going on a downward trajectory from an environmental perspective, not doomsday-esque, but just, and we all see it when we go out in these places, the invasive species. I mean, the list goes on. There need to be good bipartisan policies, and bipartisan policies last. That's why it's important. And that caucus will help do that. But going back to your point about Heinrich, I would have growing up in conservative politics, said, I would never vote for Martin Heinrich. He's a Democrat. I will be the first to say I would

vote for Martin Heinrich every single damn time that I could because I don't care what he is. I know what he stands for. Right. And we've, I think there's enough of an awakening happening in American politics where it's like it's literally not about the R or the D anymore. It's about what do they stand for? Right. Because if you follow one party 100%, you're probably not thinking for yourself. you know, we all have different experiences that create the identity that we have. And if we're 100% in line with somebody, then we aren't like literally letting our own shared experience. We adopted their mindset. We adopted their mindset.

Yeah, yeah. So Heinrich's great. She, he's great in Montana. They're the two co-chairs of this caucus. And, you know, people who question Zinke, if he's legit or not, it's like, let his actions speak. Yeah. Don't worry about some, like, conspiracy. I get these all the time.

Like Benji, you have some, like, you're either bought at, like, Donald Trump told you to do all this stuff and you're trying to greenwash his agenda or, you know, AOC has put you up to make the Green New Deal look better. It's like, let's stop with the conspiracies about this stuff. What has Zinky stood for? He stood up against the public land sell off and he was integral and getting that stopped. That's it. Yeah. Like, you can. You don't need to know anymore.

You don't need to know anymore. And if the next time he does something that you don't like, then assess that. Right. But it's like, it should be a case by case. thing, it shouldn't be like, we're always looking for ways to hate people, even though a lot of them are doing good stuff. So, you know, John Curtis in Utah is one of my favorite leaders. He's a senator, and he gets attacked nonstop by both sides because he does what he thinks is right. And I would ask people, you know, are we going to start supporting people because we are thinking creatively

about why they're doing what they're doing? Are we going to do it because they're not, are we to support people because they only tow a certain line. And at that point, we're just sheep. We're just sheep for one side of the other. And anybody who goes 100% right or 100% left is a sheep for whatever side they're supposed to be on. Yeah, they'll say bootlicker too. Boot licker.

But that's, I just, where I get frustrated, I love what you're involved in for sure. Sometimes, because I've been involved in stuff back in D.C. also, you wonder, is this doing anything. Are we making a difference because we meet at these council, at these committees or councils, or we do all the stuff and the paperwork looks good, everything looks good, does it do anything? Are we accomplish anything? Because where I get frustrated, not on this one, but like, say if you're the FDA and you talk about the red dye 40 and all the shit and then they're like, it's a big focus because RFK's in there. As soon as this administration is gone, they'll go back to right putting shitty ingredients in the food because they can make more money. So it's like it it's I get frustrated because

you want to do good work. You want to make a difference, but you just want to know that it it is having that impact. This is what keeps me up at night because the odds are stacked against us as people to actually move these balls down the court, whether that's on food safety or the environment. Right. Industries against us. The two-party political system is against us. The new media incentives are against us and I think that the new counterculture is the get shit done movement yeah like we are not allowing our leaders to capitulate to these special interests anymore and that's the thing that Donald Trump has really tapped into that I think should keep going like he's gonna be gone in

you know two and a half three and a half years we need to be able to think about our leaders that we're voting for also following this counterculture of like we don't care about the special interests we just want to get shit done On the environment, for example, you look at something like sustainable agriculture, which every farmer wants to be sustainable and more conservation-minded, every single one. And they all are already. They just need some of the resources to equip them with tools to help them be even more efficient ranching and farming advocates. The big farm companies don't want them to have it because they want to keep things the way they are. Yeah, control it.

They want to control it, and they like stability and they like consistency, even if things could be better. And so they stop every policy that would help farmers become more efficient, more sustainable. That would put more money in the farmer's pocketbooks. And the farmers are reliant, though, on these big companies to survive. So this is true in the food world. This is true in all of the different parts of how we solve problems. But we have to realize that on AI and data centers, it's the same thing. Like these tech companies have bought out these politicians, and they don't want to stand

up to say, hey, maybe we should be thinking about where we're putting all these places. And, you know, they're kind of ahead of the curve in terms of legality. We haven't really created a legal structure for this new, this new institution of data centers. And what is happening with the water? What is happening with the energy? And do we, like, we want to win this AI energy race, but for, to what end? Like, what does that can actually do for the country? No one's having that conversation because all the power is in these companies.

And that's a thing that's changed. Like when I was growing up, it was all about fiscal conservatism, capitalism to no end. But it's like some of these companies and these people have way too much control. And they are buying out the government as somebody who has worked behind the scenes for the last 15 years. They have completely gotten a stranglehold over our leaders. And the counterculture of the future will be the people in this country who vote for people based on how they get shit done, not what they say, now what party they're a part of. But if they actually solve problems. But that is the biggest hurdle.

for the rest of my life, I'm, you know, dedicating to making sure that this caucus or whatever in politics actually does get something done, or at least we give it the best chance we can. Yeah, I like that. I guess what we can do is you take each individual battle, like this one that you're involved in now. You do the best you can.

You try to get a win. You try to make advancements. You try to make improvements. And then hopefully this is a good example for people to see, and so they trust you. and then when the next one comes up, say, okay, we did that here. Now here's what we're going to take on now because you said it's a counterculture to get shit done. It's like keep doing this and keep celebrating it and keep talking about it and hopefully in time.

Because, yeah, the curtain is pulled back. And it's just like it is money that controls everything, which we should have known anyway. But I didn't realize how corrupt D.C. was and how corrupt these people are and how little they care about the American, that actually care about Americans. Right. They care about their little group that they hang out with. They go and get drinks or do whatever. If you care about the lobbyists who can get money in their pocket.

But as far as the American people, so I want to celebrate people like you, people like Ryan Callahan over at Meat Eater and BHA. I trust him. Zinky, I trust. I mean, and that's, I guess we're just going to figure out along the way who's on our side, who gets work done,

who's, you know, aligns with. this and yeah go from there needs to be a new a new leadership kind of structure and i and i think you're ryan zinky and you know the meteor crew i mean those are great examples van jones is somebody that have really gotten to respect over the last few years okay i don't know him so van jones this i know i know who he is but so i was out of the phone with him actually earlier today first all the best advice i've ever gotten is from that guy but in terms of how to treat other people i I mean, he knows how to treat other people really well. But what he, I mean, he has taken on this, like, anti-Semitic thing in a way that, like, the pro-Palestinian group on the left has just completely rocked his world in terms of the pushback that he's gone.

And I don't have a stance on that, but that topic. But the point is he's gone against everything he was supposed to say. He's learned some lessons. Yeah. But he also goes against everything he's supposed to say, like he works Donald Trump on criminal justice reform, not because, and he lost so much because of. of it. He just wanted to do, because it would help get people out of prison who shouldn't be there anymore. Well, he believes in it. He's standing up for something he believes in. That's all I want. Right. Do you believe in what you're saying? If you do, I can get behind that. Right. Even if I

disagree. And that's the thing. Like, I don't know anything about the Israel-Palestine situation. Honestly, I'm not, I also think that's part of the problem of politics is that we all have to have an opinion on everything. Yeah. And it's like, I'm blatantly so unclear about what's happening over there. And I don't really need to have an opinion on it. But I see that he's, saying what he believes. To me, that's enough. Yeah. And he could be really wrong.

I respect that. But that's, I think that's the future of politics, too. You can sense passion in someone's voice, right? And you can tell if someone's telling the truth actually pretty clearly. Yeah. And you might disagree with it, but I just feel like there's so much bullshit. The amount of times that I go into a senator's office and they're like, well, I wish I could say this, but it's like, you've already lost with me. Yeah, for sure.

Because you don't wish you could say anything and not say it. Yeah. You got to just say it if you actually are going to lead. And if you're scared of retribution, then I'm not sure we're really living in the democracy that I want to be living in. And I've even had to have my own, like, come to Jesus moment on that. Like, there are a lot of people who kept telling me, do not say anything about the public land sell off. Do not say anything with the public land sell off because the certain senator has a lot of leadership over these issues. So I'm going to shut up on something because I'm told that it would maybe risk something down.

on the line even though I believe it and but but then be okay with three million acres of public lands being sold off like yeah if you're not going to stand up for anything then I might as well just not even be involved yeah but that's how most people have have advanced in that career yeah it's easy it's so easy it's just it's like oh what am I supposed to say okay then then you did a favor for them now you got a favor coming you know that's how it works and it's how politics works instead of just like hey you might not like to hear this but I disagree. Yeah.

And here's why. And yeah, I mean. It was so funny at this caucus kickoff. Steve Dane's, the Montana senator, spoke on stage. He's like, you know what this caucus is about?

It's about cheap gun or cheap gas and good hunting. Okay. And you can see Warren Heinrich in the back being like, I guess. Yeah. And the thing is, they both got different languages, but they got the same end goal.

Like in Montana, that's what they want to hear. Exactly. That's what the people want to hear. But it's also what he believes. Yeah. And you know what? They can align in the good hunting part.

Yeah. And that's what matters. Right. And so team up on the areas where there's ways to team up and go separate ways. And, you know, those are my favorite relationships because that's also life. Yeah. Right. Like I can guarantee you, like, I don't know your family background, but my family is so

politically diverse and I don't give a shit what they believe. They're my family. Yeah. And that comes first. Yeah. And when I see these families breaking apart over politics, it just hurts me. It's like, it doesn't have to be that way. I don't know if you've kind of seen that same thing,

but it's frustrating because it's also reflective of where we're at as a nation. Yeah, I have seen that. What I, you know, as we talked about voting along party lines before, like with this whole public land sell-off, this was, and people, people on the, say, on the Democratic side, will say, well, you voted for this, Republicans are always about like raping the environment, about mineral extraction, about,

and you know, Mike Lee is the one who was pushing this so hard, the senator out of Utah, and he's a senior, what he's been in his position forever, so he's got a lot of power there. So with a lot of power, it comes a lot of people just do what you want them to do. And that was all Republican. He's, you know, very tight with Trump. I didn't see anybody caring about that. They're like, no, we're not selling public land. I don't care what party you are.

And then you think about dealing with people say, well, you voted for this. It's like no Republican voted to sell off public land. And this is how politics work. They get in. Lee's been in forever, and he's been trying to do this shit forever. And he's not going to... It's never going to happen.

Well, he's not going to be. done either. He's going to keep trying it. But yeah, and what some of his language that drives me crazy, we can talk about all this, but he'll talk about, what did he say? Underutilized public land. Who decides that? Right. What? Because he never goes there. Right. There might be people been hunting there for their whole lives. So who's, who's to say it's underutilized? Oh, we're just going to sell this land nobody's using. What do you mean nobody's using it? How did you know? And that was three million acres, but that is just the start of it. That gives them, now we've got the precedent set and like, oh, we're getting affordable housing,

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keep hammering. And that's all one word. And I'm not going to spell it. Keep hammering. Again, keep hammering one word for 20% off. Don't roll with weak gear go grizzly. Give me your thoughts on that whole land sales and how we got there. Yeah, well, I mean, I hope.

I hope Mike Lee has seen that and realized that the American people, including his own constituents in Utah, of his own voter base, do not want that. So to your point, people did not vote for this. Even Utah, Republicans didn't vote for this. It's a very small percentage of Americans. It was 10% from some polling we did of people who would support a sell-off like that. So it's like overwhelmingly, I don't know who those 10% are, but the 90% of Americans that disagree with that are going to continue to speak up. And I hope that he decides not to take it on again because he's just, going to lose again. Well, the 10% I think is because when you frame out like, oh, we want to sell

this land and build affordable housing because we need housing. People can't afford first time home buying is down and we can't afford it. So they know that it's not about affordable housing now. No, they know, but that 10% of people might be like, oh yeah, yeah. That sounds like a good idea. We need affordable housing. Yeah. So I mean, that's how they do it. That is how they do it. And I think for this, I would argue that we have urban sprawled enough. We have more than enough space in our cities to have more affordable housing. We're just not being smart about it. I live in Arizona now, and the amount of empty space there is,

vacant parking lots and vacant abandoned buildings and all this stuff, Salt Lake City has tons of that. I mean, just endless vacant lots and vacant buildings. Poorly in Oregon up here. Vacant buildings all throughout downtown. Right. It's not an affordable housing crisis. It's a crisis of how it's being made.

Right. And Portland fix the crime, fix the homelessness, fix the drugs. Stop moving everyone further and further out. That's not how you solve the problem. And they give up the downtown to like the homeless and the, you know, whoever. Right. They're just like, ah, yeah, this isn't going to work out. Let's just go, go somewhere where it's, I guess, nicer and more, like, we'll start over again. That's what about all this. Yeah. That's what we basically keep doing. Yeah. I mean, and you look at Europe and Europe's got its issues, but they've got one thing right, which is that figured out how to make cities fun and enjoyable to go to. There's a reason why people go to Boston and there's a reason why people go to Chicago,

even though the south side's kind of sketchy and like people go to cities that they want to go visit. Yeah. And Portland's missed that opportunity. Seattle's losing it. A lot of these cities are losing it. And instead of just trying to move people further and further away from the problem, it's like there's a little cancer growing in a city.

Yeah. People are moving further and further away. And if you just attacked the cancer and then you built up more housing there where there's already space and infrastructure to do it and you could build shops and all the resources people need, you'd get rid of this affordability problem. So it's an urban sprawl does not fix it. But I also like, I have my hot take too is that we, we need more nature, not less. Like we rely on it for our livelihoods. And whether you hunt or you recreate it or not, this is this is how a country will thrive 300 years from now. Do you have places where people can actually have free

The environment is where people have freedom. And that could be a local park or it could be a national forest or a national park. But we are so chronically online, we've become way more disconnected from one another. And the answer to how a society evolves is not to destroy the limited amount of nature that we have left. We don't have that much left to begin with. And you're telling me that we're building more housing sprawled into the mountains is going to make society happier. it's going to make America a stronger country, not at all. And America is strong partially because we still have,

we still give people the chance to have the worst week ever and go out to the environment and reconnect with their selves. That's one of the best things that America has to offer. People come here from all over the world to experience that because they don't have it in their country. Right. So don't get rid of that. Yeah.

And that is something, that is a hill worth dying on. Definitely. And that's a hill worth every American standing together to die on. And the public land sell off was a perfect example of how that is possible and how it's needed, but also not just to stop bad things from happening. But how about we get some offensive good things done for nature and for conservation? That's the future that I see for the movement. Yeah, I agree 100% with all that. It's like nature, you know, the mountains are energy, they are life.

You feel more connected. You feel more at peace. You make better decisions. It's everything that was lacking in people right now, which is why medication is or medicating people is up. Depression is up. You get into the mountains. Dude.

It's all gone. That shit is cured. It's so cured. People just don't know. And so it makes me wonder to this whole public land sell-off. It was a huge thing out west. But back east, it's public land isn't the same as out here we've always valued our public land i mean i i wrote

this book on public land bow hunting in 2006 and it was just like what everybody out west wanted to do get you camp on your back let's get out there try to kill a big bull elk so out west it's always been public land is the crown jewel back east i don't know if it doesn't resonate the same because they don't have it. Because you can't just go. And Adirondacks have some good country for sure. But it's not like the Rocky Mountains out here where there's national parks and Yellowstone

and all these incredible places, the Frank Church wilderness, the Eagle Cap wilderness here, Trinity Alps down in California. These are all iconic Grand Canyon. This is all public land that is like, it's, you look at it in you're speechless, right? The east doesn't,

have that and there's that's where most you know other than LA that's where most the people live in this country so is it are we fighting an uphill battle explaining why public land is valuable when they're dealing with the housing crisis more than anybody back there usually yeah but i also think our leaders like even the western senators don't spend time at home anymore and so they've kind of lost touch and the house members too of like what it's like to be in the environment every day choose. So it's not even just the people out east. It's also the leaders out east because our capital is out there. Right. So you see a direct correlation between time outside, which has gone down dramatically for every single American. There's some statistic last week that came out.

It was just a staggering drop over the last 50 years of people spending time outside and depression. It's like, it's completely aligned. And yet visitation to national parks and public lands is at an all-time high. So what does that mean? How can it make sense that people are spending less time in nature than ever before, but then this visitation is higher than it's ever before? People only go in the environment now on their like once or twice a year vacation, especially the people out east. The rest of the time, they're on their screens and they're in their homes, not talking to anybody, not building community because we've been shut inside for the rest of our lives. And so I think out east, what we need to do is figure out how to build nature and conservation into the ethos there again

with better urban parks, better community parks, better regional parks, better county parks. Like, they're not going to have the big, you know, yellow stones. They've already developed these areas. Please don't do that out west to us out here, by the way, because it's obviously not making people happier. But, you know, you look at New York City, everyone on the weekend flocks to Central Park. Why? Because it's a green space.

Right. That's what we need more of. And why is Baltimore having such bad, you know, crime? Why is there such a problem with their downtown? I've been down there. It is the worst downtown you could go to. There's nowhere to go hang out. There's no green space. And so I think we need to integrate that into people's communities again and help people connect with the outdoors because it doesn't always have to be this grand mountain majesty that you enjoy nature in. It also could be the tree that you look up at while you're reading in the park. for two hours. Yeah. But you just, people need to disconnect. Right. But if you're out east, where do you disconnect?

Yeah. And the other thing is, a lot of times you need to disconnect alone or disconnect with like your partner or something. Like I basically only go out hiking with my girlfriend or with myself. Mm-hmm. Because it is, it's a reconnection time.

And if you go to the one pier in your city out east and there's 600 people on it, that's not really connecting with nature in the same way. Right. So we need to start building that back. And it kind of goes back to the fact that more urban sprawl and more urban development doesn't necessarily help us. Yeah, that's a good point because where I run every day, Mount Piscay over here, it's like a 200-and-some acre park.

I mean, that's not a lot of land. They have that back east. But so many people go to get to the summit of Mount Piscke every day. And yes, there's some trails around that that aren't part of the park. But that is enough for people to get, walk on some dirt, get some fresh. get to the top of a mountain, look over the city. That changes you. Yes.

If you're having a bad day, you get to the top of that mountain to that summit. You're not having a bad day anymore. Right. That's what connection means. And that's what the healing powers of nature are. I fell in love with nature in Wisconsin where I grew up in just a state park. It was just a state park with a simple lake. There's something crazy about it.

Yeah. just seeing the birds, seeing the deer, seeing the fish, like, seeing the frogs. Like, that was part of my upbringing. And so, yeah, you don't need to have this, like, grand western mountain majesty. But people kind of just go all in on that or they don't do anything outdoors anymore. Yeah. And it also creates a disconnection from our communities. Like, people, my sister lives in Boston and she does a good job of getting outside.

But most people there, like, they wouldn't even know that. like there's this beautiful park on the on the wharf there or they won't even know that there's they just go out west to like go skiing once a year or something yeah and so it's like this disconnection from place too that we need and there's this concept that I've really enjoyed hearing about lately called patriotism of place be like you know you have a lot of pride and where you're from we should be focused on making those places better and if you do that you also got to put partisan politics aside because it's it's it's not team red or blue it's team where you live right and that's a team that you want to be a part of i like that so that's where connection to greenery and

urban settings could be really helpful um and out east they need that you look at like these really struggling towns especially in like the south or the mid the middle part of the eastern shore and they need community more than ever so this is a great way to do it yeah i i agree um yeah i mean even I go down to LA quite a bit. I always run up to the Hollywood sign. That's good trails up there. Yes. And that's right outside of LA.

There's stuff everywhere. Everywhere. Literally everywhere. Just got to, I mean, just getting out in a fresh air. And I always say, when you're miles from the truck and breaking down a big bull, you can't afford a knife that won't hold up. That's why I built my own signature blade with Montana Knife Company. They keep hammering pack out.

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And water often does the same thing, right? A river. I mean, I went running over the river this morning, watched the sunrise. Like, that, that may- That sunrise look good. Oh, my gosh. It was beautiful, wasn't it? Awesome. I was like, I'm going to come back and run this every morning. But it was like,

that's just, you know, there's rivers everywhere. There's trees everywhere. Like, you don't necessarily have to do anything crazy. And that's something that I've been, you know, I moved out west to be closer to the mountains out here, but not everyone has that privilege. And it doesn't matter. There's something in your backyard and guarantee it. Well, and, you know, you haven't big game hunted yet. But there is something about when a fish hits that hook. Like when you got a fish on the line, I don't care who it is, a little kid, a grown, whatever. I know that feeling. That is power.

Yes. Right? And then if you can like, okay, catch your release, fine. Take that thing home, eat it. Then there's connection to food. But all that, that's not, doesn't take like you have to be, you know, at the top of Grand Teton or something. It's like, that's just water in a city. They have fish.

Sometimes they plant those. And that's fine too. Just get out there, get a line in the water. Right. I mean, it doesn't have to be crazy. That's how I fell in up with my, you know, with the environment with my grandpa up in that lake that I was talking to you about. So, yeah, it's everywhere. And, you know, I think we, there's, there's like those gardening clubs.

Like, everyone's connection to it is different. And what you, what we've just forgotten about is just this backyard. Like, we have, we have a beautiful environment in our backyard. Go explore it. I mean, I live in Arizona. People don't even know that an hour outside of Phoenix are some of the best trails and best mountains. beautiful there. I can't tell you how many Phoenix people who have grown up there have never been out there,

not once. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? But they do travel to Colorado or Utah or something. And I'm like, but what about like you could do like a day trip and have like the best weekend in the mountains imaginable. So I think that that's also something that we could all do better about. Yeah. I mean, that reminds me.

I had to, I had a few people over the other day. And one of them ran for Oregon, I think made the Olympic trials in the 15th. or the five had never been to the top of Piscay. Do you take her? No, this was a guy. Okay. But we were supposed to run that morning. I was hunting, though.

But so you can live right here. Yes. It's 10 minutes away. Mm-hmm. And just because you never made time to do it had never been there, which, you know, it's fine. You know, these athletes have to train pretty hard. But I think to your point, that's just a perfect example of,

yeah, there's stuff right around you. Just search it out, take advantage of it. I think the next generation of political leadership is going to realize that people want that more than they want more technology. Yeah. Like I feel like we've just gotten this AI tech data boom thing, but data center boom thing. But people actually don't want that. You're seeing like this revolt around people a whole, like literally of every background. As well as nature time has gone down, depression time has gone up.

Also, the amount of screen time is directly correlated with that too. And we, I think, need to start rewarding leaders who have an environmental plan. And what I mean by that is literally all of it. It means conservation. It means urban parks. It means trees around schools. Like what is your way to connect people to the literal planet that we live on? The grass, the dirt, the plants, the animals.

Are we teaching that in schools? Are we allowing people to get outside? Are we investing in taking care of these places? Who has a plan for that? And I think most people, it's basically the thing about climate change or they don't have a plan at all. And we've got to start similar to like rewarding leaders based on standing up for what they believe in. Also, let's make sure standing for what they believe in includes touching grass again. How do you get people to pay?

Because to explain that and like have a leader that, you know, it's like kind of all in encompassing from nature all the way to, you know, maybe less electronics. But to explain that position, you have to capture people's attention for a few minutes. That is harder nowadays. People, like if you look at an Instagram reel, usually they're going past it in three seconds. You got three seconds, right? So that's, I'm not saying that a conversation face to face is that same, but people get, they get bored. They do. So how do we explain that? and have people pay attention long enough? What does that take?

I think it takes being bolder that this is the counterculture, right? Like that this is, it's not going to be unreal's, right? Like we can't compete with that. Right. And we're not going to be divisive enough for that. I'm not going to attack somebody enough for that. And I'm not going to say something crazy enough for that. Maybe occasionally when something, you know,

hits that nerve like the public land cell off or whatever. But the majority of stuff that we're talking about here is that face-to-face or the real human interaction. But I also think people are craving that. You're seeing people delete social media off their phones. I know a ton of people, including my own girlfriend, who doesn't even have social media anymore, because it just, they're like, well, is this making me happier? No.

Okay. Why do I even have it? And they're listening to more podcasts and more longer form things. So I think what we're trying to do with nature is nonpartisan, we're going to launch a movement in the spring called United by Nature. And we're going to have totally different people from like an avid hunter with a vegan sit down over a campfire to talk about public lands. You know, it still is like bold where you're like, wait, these people shouldn't be sitting

next to each other or like it still should be interesting enough to get their attention, hopefully. But it's not trying to feed into the algorithms cry for either division or craziness. Right. And I think we just have to accept that that's not good for us. Like it takes each of us to just accept that. I'm not going to try to compete with that. I've tried for years to think about ways to do it.

I'm six years into thinking about it. Still haven't figured that out. I don't think the answer is coming down the pike. So we might as well just try to create our own game. And our game is, again, solutions and human connection. Like, I hope this is the first of many interactions that you and I have of building a friendship because that's what this is about for me. And I want to spend more time outside of people.

I want to spend more time outside with leaders. And I also want to build real human communities again because I think that's also a counterculture. the tech people want us to like build AI girlfriends right i love my girlfriend i'm not going to stop so that's the sort of future that i think we can build to defeat that i'm not saying people should just delete their social media but i do think that that's not where the answers are going to be at the very least right i i definitely agree with all that and i think there is some hope there i mean i've seen that like about the polar opposite of me in general if you had whatever It would be Travis Barker, vegan, LA, superstar, me, redneck, dipshit, bowhunter.

But we run together and it's great. And it's just like that discussion is a different type of discussion because it's not somebody who I talk to a type of person I've talked to my whole life. I'm not the type of person he's talked to his whole life. So it makes these conversation interesting. And that's what it takes. It takes like, oh, people catch them off guard. be like, wait, why are these guys together? And that is the key. I mean, I had Alexi Pappas too, and she's, you know, Ivy League, never hunted, went out, took her out to get her first buck.

And that was a whole different, that was a whole different discussion, having her explain something that I've done my whole life in a different manner. But everybody loved that podcast because they're used to me talking about this shit. And we talked about, too, like, it would be funny. I don't know how this fits into our discussion, but like when I talk about hunting and why it's good and, and you know,

why that connection to food is so important, people are used to like how I look. This is the same old me saying the same shit. So what if it was like the most gay talking guy ever, right? The most feminine guy ever saying the exact same thing I say. Would people be like not off put because I'm not, oh, he's MAGA, which whatever the f-just, lazy, stupid thing. I'm not MAGA.

But they can write me off for being MAGA, right? But you can't write off this gay guy saying the same stuff. Are you listening now? Or like, would they listen and be like, that actually makes a lot of sense just because it's not me? So I like having this discussion with different voices delivered in a different way because it's going to resonate differently with people or their guards down because it's like, yeah, this guy's always talking about that shit, but her or Travis, I haven't heard them

say stuff like this. I think that's what it takes. It's just a new audience and a fresh conversation. Well, yeah, it humanizes it for people who need different validators, right? Like, we all look up to different people and have different backgrounds. So it's like if you, if you're gay, you're going to be more likely to listen to a gay guy. If you're a conservative, ardent conservative person, you're going to want to probably listen to that. And if liberal, you're going to want to listen to that too. If you're a sports fan, you're going to want to listen to a sports star, say something. Right.

But the message is the important part. The message is the most important part. And I think, but what people feel like is like every hunter looks like you. But that's not true. Right. And that's increasingly not true. And I didn't grow up with people who kind of validated that. And now I'm like all in on it because I've seen that now.

So I'm so pro-hunting in a way that I was pretty, probably pretty neutral about it 10 years ago. I probably wasn't against it or for it. But now I'm like the biggest hunting advocate out there. And it's because I've seen it from a lens that makes sense to my life, which is like I care about conservation and the environment more than literally anything. And I know the important role that the hunting and fishing community plays. Right. So that's why it matters to me. And I had people who spoke with that message about it to me and now I fully get it. Yeah. So that's the, I think that's also how we can start to break down these sort of barriers that we've set is like because a lot it's not this black and white yeah and

we've gotten into this like like to your last question about social media not everything is explainable in a 10 second reel and not everything's explainable in a three minute reel or a one-hour podcast like we could probably talk for hours about this stuff and still not even come close to everything we'd want to talk about because it's complicated right the political world's complicated. Environmental policy is complicated. Culture is complicated. And it's not as simple as we think. Hunters aren't just masculine men, right?

It's like, and my parents are vegans. Everyone's like, oh, they must be like liberal hippies. No, they're conservatives, but also they're not vegans because of animal rights. They literally just don't like meat, the taste of it. That's it. But everyone assumes, based on the black and white, you know, way that we think about things. So we need to start having these conversations in a way that actually opens up those kind

of barriers from, our minds. Yeah, and just instead of just writing somebody off like because of how they look, like let's just, okay, I want to hear what they say. Right.

And that isn't really popular nowadays. It's really easy to write people off just a, you know, that pink-haired liberal or blue-haired liberal, me like how I look. But I really, I love that you're really pushing back on, hey, let's listen to the message,

let's have a long, a long, form type discussion and yeah there's this woman who created a conspiracy video about me earlier this year that I was like I was set up by a Chilean mining company to help the Trump administration greenwash their destruction of the boundary waters in Minnesota crazy I mean it really went down this rabbit hole but she's got a huge following on Instagram okay so I commented if you don't take this down I'm going to look at suing you for defamation because it went viral I mean it had almost a million

views within like a couple of hours and I had people's parents from high school messaging me on Facebook messenger I can't believe what you've turned into I used to look up to you like all the stuff I was like and I got all these messages out of the blue and I was like wait what did I do like I had to find this video and I was like whoa and I just talked to her last week nicest girl and so what was it she just genuinely went down this rabbit hole and believe something about me that wasn't true and convinced herself of it because of the fact that I was trying to work with Trump on this Make America Beautiful again.

There's confirmation. You can find any belief you have confirmed somewhere. Yes. So you can go down the rabbit hole and somebody will be saying you're right. Yes. That's the problem. And everyone was commenting as if she was speaking the whole truth. Well, now I'm grabbing breakfast with her in two weeks and we become friends because I'm not,

like life's too short a, like that personally did. me because it like was about me. Yeah. But life's too short to hate these people who disagree with you. And then when they come after you, a lot of times it's literally off of pure ignorance. Yeah. And they totally don't like when people call you this maga sellout, like they don't know you. And like you just got to you know that and you just move past it. And I know that I'm not bought out by Argentinian or Chilean mining company. But there are most people are just blindly following whatever they're, whatever they hear based off of how someone looks or who they're identified with or whatever. And I worked with Donald Trump on an executive order.

Fact. I'm trying to destroy the environment under the name of Donald Trump. Not a fact. Not a fact. I'm loyal to Donald Trump. No, I'm loyal to the environment. Guess what being loyal to the environment means? You work with absolutely anybody to be loyal to the environment, whether you like him or not. I don't give a shit. Yeah. And that's something that I think you embody by, having this conversation. And that's why it's like, I will have any pro-hunting and angling advocate in the network possible, as I will have somebody who's the hippiest,

dippiest person. Because if we just share the need to protect these places and conserve them and allow recreation in them, let's just go forward together. That's the philosophy we got to have. Yeah. No, I think that's great. You know,

looking at your hat there, it's like there's another person that played for Green Bay, that's like pushing back on what the norm like you you uh erin rogers fan or no i do like him you know what i like about him huh he's not right all the time no but he a doesn't care he gives zero shits yeah he he does stand it for what he believes in you can tell for sure and you know he is you can tell that he is really evolved to do a person that is actually enjoying life yeah and you know whether that means that I agree with his behaviors or not. I mean, I didn't like how he left the Packers.

I can say that. I thought he handled that poorly. But I've always been an Aaron Rogers fan. And I also think, like, people who hate him, it's like, come on. Like, you don't know him. I can't hate someone I don't know. Right, I know. Except for, like, bearers players.

Like, yeah, I hate them all. But that's a different story. Yeah. No, Aaron, he came here after. kind of after he hurt his Achilles. But yeah, we did Spencer's Butte, which is another mountain over here in the snow and shot a bow.

He's actually really strong. He's a big dude. But yeah, I've always been a fan just how he just says what he believes. And he's also always learning. Yeah, he's evolving all the time. I can respect somebody who doesn't. A lot of people think they know it all.

And when you think you know it all, you're never going to grow. Yeah. Because you already have all the answers. But if he's like one of the guys who's super smart, well read, but also doesn't know it all and is always trying to learn and evolve. I love people like that. Yeah. And he's figuring it out.

And I think like anybody who acts like they have life figured out, it's just really stupid because they don't. And I don't, you don't, no one does. And he's constantly evolving and being open about that. Yeah. He'll tell you I was wrong a few years ago when I did this. Right. And then people will be like, see, you're wrong. See, you're admitting.

It's like, no. Give him kudos. Like, yeah. The dude's admitting that he's grown. Yeah. And like, we all should do that. Like, I've been wrong about a million things in the last two years. And I'm probably wrong about half the shit I'm saying right now.

Exactly. Yeah. That's life. That's life. And that's also, like, what's scary about some of these politicians and, like, how, how, like, the same views have been for 10 years. It's like, did you not learn anything? Like, nothing changed. Nothing evolved.

Nothing grew. It's nuts. It's crazy. But, yeah, Aaron's great. And honestly, I think he said a good example for, people that they can be outside the box but still make it work in the real world. Yeah. And people hated on him so hard. And we're like, his career is over. No one's going to look at him the same way. And nope, that was not true. Throw good ball. And that's all

matters in that game. But I also think most people who like most people probably like him, but it's kind of taboo to say you like him so they don't. And so you feel he's polarizing. Yeah. But I'm good with, I love that. Yeah. I like, I like, I like, like people who, whatever, just stay. They're willing to take it on the chin. Yeah. Whatever. I mean, I don't want people who just say what they have to say to survive.

Say how you feel. Yeah. And that also shows that they're willing to risk things, right? Oh, yeah. It's awesome. Risk your job. I mean, we're doing that all the time. And if there's bigger things in life than the paycheck, right?

It's like, I talked about this with my girlfriend all the time. Like, if I stand up for what I believe in and it ends my career, I'm, literally so good to just go out to Wyoming and just hike for the rest of my life and just work at a restaurant, which I did in high school and like, you know, just live paycheck to paycheck. Like, I don't care. And people, like when you die, what are you going to be proud of? Just going along to get along or standing up for what you thought was right. And it sounds cliche, but it's like, I think a lot of people in leadership need to have that

reality check. Yeah, I think so too. Did you have a spine? Did you not? Yeah, I know. That's all. I've said this on a podcast, maybe last one before. I just want, I just want somebody to make me believe in what they're doing. Just give me something to believe in. That's it. I just don't believe in hardly anything these guys say. I want to trust somebody. That's it. So what's your, you mentioned another thing you got going, but what are you working on right now? So we're going to launch a cultural campaign called United by Nature, which is really designed. You'll see it.

Our first campaign is going to be about public lands. But we're going to tackle wildlife. We're going to tackle clean water, like a lot of the different critical environmental issues that there are. But the first theme is going to be public lands. And our goal is to really rebuild and reignite the conservation legacy that America used to have. And make people feel like they can actually buy into a movement for this again. And I know that sounds kind of abstract because it's not. launched yet, but we're trying to make being active in advocating for conservation fun, engaging,

optimistic, something that people want to be a part of, and make it easy for people. So, you know, we're not only teaming up with a diverse set of nonprofits from the hunting and fishing NGOs to the traditional, you know, environmental NGOs, but we're also going to have some of the most surprising influencers and leaders a part of it saying the same things. And our goal is to show politicians that Americans actually want this in the public, that this is not something that should be halted when one side wins or gone to extreme when one side wins, that we want consistent action. And it's really recreating what we had in the 70s and 80s in this country. Like, we had a rational movement. That's how we got the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, the Endangered

Species Act. Now, all those laws are out of date and they're ineffective. One of the reasons why we haven't been able to fix them is because of the exact problem we're trying to solve. But those Those bills passed 95 to 5 in the Senate because politicians knew that's what America wanted. It didn't matter what political identity. And so that's the movement we're trying to create. So united by nature and it will make taking action super easy. We're going to build a software to make it super easy for people to be able to take action and also start to really support local community restoration efforts instead of just national

policy. So that's launching in March. And then hopefully because of that groundswell of Americans who believe that conservation should transcend any difference ideologically, our leaders will follow. So this caucus is designed, the Senate caucus we've been talking about is designed to put bipartisan policy across the finish line. And we're hoping that that prioritizes it. Because if you don't know anything about politics, it's basically you're focused maybe

six hours a day on TikTok and Instagram videos trying to get attention as a senator. And then the other two hours of the day you're trying to maybe think about passing a law. well if the environment's not in the top 10 or 15 priority issues it will never see the light a day in any time in any time so we are just trying to get it some time that's the goal i like that um it should be like a perfect time for this uh when you consider all the the public outport support for the not one acre of the public land is this uh do i have this or not oh yeah oh yeah there it is There's Teddy. And he's wearing your hat.

I know. I didn't even know that he had to keep hammering hat. He did. I read about that in his biography. But yeah, so it's like it should be an easy time. Here's what I get skeptical. Not on what you're doing. I want to know what you're skeptical of.

So you say you have a relationship with Trump. And is he supportive of this? Because here's what I'm going to lay out. I feel like he's supportive of Mike Lee also selling public land. because he's a money guy and people can say Republicans, they, you know, whatever, they're all about making money. But I wonder, is Trump saying the right things for public land, but also telling Mike Lee to pursue selling public land? So this is why we need to build up this grassroots army, which we sort of saw again with the public lands proposal a couple months ago. because the reason that got stopped was not because Mike Lee had a come to Jesus moment is because

he realized he was going to lose on it. What we need to show our leaders is that they can also win on doing the right thing. And what I don't think Donald Trump has seen yet enough of is that this is a priority for Americans, his base and those who voted against him, but also his base. His base gears about it. That is not clear to him. And so I think right now he's in this place where he's actually sort of neutral. And he hasn't decided which way he wants to go.

yet on conservation. And my message to his team is that there's a, there's a truly a winning legacy item and there's a losing legacy item. You do not want to be known as the president that sold off public land, which is one of America's greatest assets that we have. Right. You want to be known as the guy who made them better and who put politics aside to find a way to maintain them better, to fund them better, to, you know, figure out how to get rid of

invasive species. help fight forest fires and put money into wildlife conservation and support hunting and angling, that's the legacy you want to leave. Or you can choose the other route. And I don't think he's decided yet. We got him to sign an executive order called Make a Mirica Beautiful again, which is a commission in the White House to tackle public lands issues, wildfires, and recreation access in a way that solves, but is pro those things. Like is, you know, is an optimistic way of looking at it.

He hasn't done anything on it yet. But it's been five months or four months. So I'm not sure where he's going to go on this yet. But do you think that that's a long, that feels like a long time to me. That's how it feels to me too. And that's what I get worried about. I do too. And it's like a big photo op.

And it's like, okay. Right. Let's do something. And I honestly think. I think that that's partially why I think it's been frustrating for the administration to see me because I'm not banging the Trump drum because I haven't seen anything yet. Right. I will celebrate the shit out of any conservation and action he does. Yeah. I will be the first one to stand next to him or be a part of the team that helps make it happen.

But if he doesn't do it, I'm not going to support that. Right. Right. And if he supports a public land sale off, I'm not going to support that. So that's what I also think this administration hasn't understood yet about politics is that there are a lot of people out there who do just want to do the right thing, who aren't and are willing to kind of call balls and strikes. Yeah.

And like you are. And I don't think what they've realized yet is how much support they would get if they did the right thing on this. Yeah, I think that I think you're right in that he doesn't, he hasn't taken a stance yet because I know on the big, beautiful bill, I think, they wanted to push that public land, sell off bullshit, up until the very last minute. And I think Trump had to call Lee and say, get rid of that language because it's going to screw up my bill. The bill isn't going to pass with that in there because it was such, like they were getting more calls than they've ever got. It was phones ringing off the hook of all these congressmen, all these

senators. And it was such a big distraction that he, whether he believed it or not, he was just like, no, this is not my big, beautiful bill. Get it out of there. But I think when he wakes up in the morning, this is like the 25th thing he thinks. For sure. If it is that high. Yeah. The 25th issue. I also know that there was a lot of mixed, like a mixed identity within the White House of how they felt about the public land and sell off.

There are some people who really wanted it and some people who didn't. And I don't know how that shakes out because a lot of the people in that White House actually are ardent conservationists. They care deeply about the environment. Doug Bergam, the DUI secretary, had a huge conservation legacy as the North Dakota governor and loves Teddy Roosevelt more than anybody I've ever met. However, there are also people who are develop, develop, develop, you know, grow, grow, grow, grow at the expense of anything. And it's also all about owning the libs. And it's not about substance. And which one wins on conservation has not yet to be seen.

But there have been mostly rollbacks from a conservation perspective since he's been in office. And so what I've told the team is like at the White House is America wants, you can, you can see the polling or you can see the real human backlash from the public lands off. Humans on this continent in this country who are Republican want you to do good things for the environment. They do. There's proof. I don't need to, it's not hypothetical. It's your choice. And you're going to keep getting pushed down on this stuff if you don't lead on it.

And I don't know why they don't just take it. I mean, it's such an easy win. And you can't put, you can't put, Trump can't put his picture up alongside Roosevelt when he hasn't done shit. Right. To protect public lands or conservation. But he's got three and a half years left. And my message to them would be like, it's not too late to go all in.

Yeah, I'm on your side. And I have switched gears. And I like, I'm just going to call it out. I just, I just don't like this political BS going on. But like you, if it changes, and there is something like positive regarding public land and, you know, timber management and protecting our ranchers, everything that like middle America cares about other than the coasts, like then I will celebrate that. And I will say, thank you, President Trump. But until that time, it's like, no, f*** off. It's like I can't, I can't support it.

No. And people need answers. Like the 94% of water in the United States that we drink has microplast. in it. Yeah. The Mississippi River is getting destroyed by nitrogen runoff from the farms. The farmers could keep that water on their property and actually recycle it if the government was willing to have that conversation. Like, there are solutions to this stuff. Right. But Middle America does care, and it is such a stupid decision not to go after conservation progress. It's such a drop in the bucket. My goal, truly in the 21st century, is to build a second conservation corps.

I think that America needs a 21st century conservation corps that the government is helping to fund. It's a drop in the bucket compared to what we spend on everything else. It would literally be cents on the dollar for every American every year to fund this thing. We could have a full-time workforce of young people who are not mission-driven, who have no idea where to go in life. They could go and help restore America's environment and help build stewardship for the next generation. You could have part-time people. And you get volunteers, you could have a mom and her kid go to the river every weekend be part of the conservation corps. It doesn't have to be a full-time thing.

It can be a community-driven effort. They could partner with local nonprofits in each region of who's restoring what trails and what rivers and what prairies and make it part of the American ethos. Like, make it part of our pride and put people to work. And that's the sort of thing that is just such a winner. Every American could get behind that. And it's not the climate core, which is what Biden tried to do, which is very narrow and it was more about clean energy infrastructure and social justice and stuff. It's literally about improving the health and cleanliness of our communities and our

backyards and our public lands. That's what it could be about. I like that. And I think that has to be independent because, you know, when you get the government shut down or you get the, I don't know, the Doge report or whatever, but anyway, they cut so many federal and government workers. And a lot of them were working on, you know, working for the parks or working for BLM, a national force and they got cut.

So it's like people think government is just pissing away money, taking money from the American people. It's too many taxes. So I think if you were independent and on, you know, your goal there, that would be more of a chance for success. It feels like to me just be. I think there could be a for-profit, a nonprofit and the government. Yeah, all be involved in this together.

Yeah, maybe so. Yeah. If the government was involved, it would be really easy to make it transparent from the get-go. Yeah, that would be great. Here are the metrics we're going to have. We're going to put this workforce to work. We're going to restore these places. And at the end of each year or every two years or whatever, we're going to assess how

successful we were on these projects. That's great. It's not that hard to build that. I mean, I'm 27 and I built some nonprofits and I think I could just build that whole blueprint if they wanted me to. I mean, what happened to the government also were just reporting progress on things? Like, okay, we promised that we do this with this money and then we just never hear about it ever again.

Right, exactly. We could easily say we're going to put $30 billion to a conservation corps. If it doesn't save $30 billion, then we're going to reassess or $3 billion or whatever, whatever number, but just like reassess it after a certain amount of years because if we could restore these ecosystems and help protect wildlife and create corridors with public-private partnerships and really just help kind of make the American conservation spirit part of our identity again, you could see a huge cost. savings from disaster disasters that are happening across the country from

forest fires to hurricanes to everything like that track if it's working and then shift like this is talking about evolution from Aaron Rodgers we need evolution from the government yeah this isn't working let's let's divert and run it sort of and this is where Elon sort of had something run it sort of like a corporate run a program like this like a business yeah I can't afford to run a nonprofit to spend X amount a year and not get anything done. So the government should be held at the same standard.

I like that. I think that another part of the messaging could be, you know, people talk about mineral extraction and, you know, I guess being more energy independent as a country. And I hunt areas in Southern Colorado, which they pull natural gas off there. There's wells everywhere, and it's incredible hunting. So there's a way to do it.

You can extract minerals and you're not, you're making it amazing habitat. Yes. It's good for the animals. It's good for hunters. It's good for whatever. Because if you go like on Highway 12 in Southern Colorado, where I hunt on this side is night and day different from the public land side. Because there's incentive to keep water there, to keep the roads maintained, to keep access. But also to create this amazing habitat.

On the other side, there's not. So it's like there's there is a there's a story about. Yes, it's natural gas and that used to be where coal mines were and now they're It's not the coal anymore, but it's the same getting the same results out of it and it hasn't ruined anything It's made it better right so yeah that and that's and this mixed multiple use Mandate so a lot of the Mike Lee people in DC Attributed our opposition to the public land cell office is that we don't support multiple use. That's how they felt about it.

It couldn't be further from the truth, obviously, for me and for you as well. And we have to. I mean, we have to develop resources and we have to mine. We have to develop energy. And I don't care if it's oil and gas or, you know, figuring out how to get uranium for nuclear. Like, we've got to figure this stuff out. I was shocked, and I'm not advocating for this. In fact, I think we don't need to do more of it in the Gulf.

But I toured an offshore oil rig. and it was amazing to see the artificial reef that it created for the fish. There were so many fish underneath this reef, and I used to be so against it. And I'm not a huge fan of putting these things up in the ocean in pristine natural areas. But the fact that they were already there creating energy for the energy independence for the country, and then you have these crazy reefs that they've just created and all these fish flocking to it. Like, there's a way to do it. And I think that's also where the left really gets it wrong.

Right. Like, you can have both. I mean, I live in a neighborhood in Arizona where we have bobcats. We have coyotes. We have havelinas. We got all this wildlife that's able to interact with the human ecosystem, let alone, like, a well. Right. And so there's a way to do it.

And I think if that's always in mind, then we can use those underutilized public lands, not for more affordable housing to destroy it, but, like, have the multiple use mandate that Teddy Roosevelt. talked about, which was, we're going to protect these places. They're not getting developed for good. Right. They're getting developed temporarily for energy extraction. That's okay. We can still do that and have a healthy environment. Yeah. And there's a way where when the well isn't producing, you abandon it. You just don't leave it. You know, and I think Landman has done a good job of showing like the wind energy and like it's not just all rosy. You know, I mean, what happens when these facilities aren't producing anymore? They're just kind of abandoned. That's been a huge evolution for me.

I mean, I used to be kind of like a climate. Talk about evolution. Like, I used to think climate change was a huge deal and that we needed to have more wind turbines and solar panels everywhere and all this stuff. And I do believe climate change is real, but I will never support destroying the environment to, quote unquote, save the environment. That is the worst concept I've ever been lied to about, by the way, because I listened to that for a while. And I actually promoted it. You could probably find clips of me saying it. And there's no reason why we should destroy it.

Like, you look at what China's doing. And at COP, this climate thing that just happened two weeks ago in Brazil, everyone was celebrating China for being this climate leader. First of all, they have the highest emissions out of any country by far. Yeah. Second of all, they have solar panels that are destroying their entire country. I mean, you look at the farms that they have. The whole mountain ranges have been cut down to put up.

solar panels. Why do we care about climate change if we don't have a natural world left? Yeah. Like, we might as well just, like, burn the whole planet because we got a ticking time bomb at that point. Yeah. Nature matters more than climate change. Yeah, for sure.

And you don't even need to care about climate change if we have no natural world left. Because we have no natural world left, then I don't care about climate change. Just burn the planet up, honestly, because we don't have hope if we don't have nature. And so I think we are starting to see a more rational discussion about renewable. I'm fine with solar panels on roofs. I'm fine with wind in certain areas. Like in Wisconsin, there's some really windy areas that didn't kind of just had this rolling planes. Okay.

But if you're destroying ecosystems to put up wind turbines or solar panels, nobody should be for that. Yeah, there's nuance to all this. Yes. And it's just, it's not just black and white, this side, that side. But I do like that you said you, somebody can look up videos of you talking about climate change. And you have changed your stance. And it's just like, yeah, that's. That's fine. That's called being a human.

I wrote a book and I don't agree with a lot of stuff that's in there. Like that's, it's called learning, you know. And, you know, I voted for people who I regret voting for. And like, all you can do is learn the most you can in a day and put that day behind you because I can't control, I can't change what I did on the ballot box in 2016. People are like, who did you vote for? I was on a college campus a few times this fall and people are like, who did you vote? vote for in 2024, I'm like, as if that was like a question that would dictate whether or not

they took me seriously. Right. And it's like, how do you know that who I voted for a year ago, I completely hate or love now? Like you have no idea. Right. And it's just like you do the best with the information you have. You move on, you learn.

And I feel like that's something that in politics is not rewarded, but should be. Yeah, they want to put you in a box so they can dismiss whatever you say. It's just like, oh, because. because of this reason. But yeah, I mean... On climate, I've really evolved. And I also just am like, you see what India and China are doing.

And it's not an excuse for us not to care about our environment at all. But, you mean, you can't even see the visibility is like a half a mile in these places. And that's not going to get coverage because they control what's on the news there. So where we have this, we can show whatever here and everybody sees all our skeleton in our closet in this country, those other countries, they're not like that.

No. So you're not seeing the real story over there. And there's nothing they can do about it. Yeah. And if people in China wanted to stand up and say, hey, we actually don't want to lose 40% of our forest to solar farms. They couldn't say that. No.

Okay. How about jail? I want to start a nonprofit. No, you're going to enjoy that from jail. Yeah. Yeah. No, we have, we have. Powered by solar.

We have a good. here but it's um yeah i mean we can get we need to get better we have to get better we have to get more and i do want to be a model for the world you know yeah can you have if not us who right literally who i can't think of anybody yeah and we should be able to show the world that humans can coexist with the environment that you can have economic growth but still protect the places that we have left from a nature perspective and i feel like maybe this counterculture that we talk talked about in the first part of this is like also thinking about the long-term implications of a lot of these things it's not just like how much can we extract economically for the next

year or two but like what does that mean for us 10 20 years down the line because I'm 27 and I want to have kids and if we drain all the resources for this AI boom for example and we have more economic wealth than ever before but we've depleted everything like I'm not sure I want that trade off. And I'm not saying that that's going to happen. I'm not trying to fear Monga and data centers, but I'm just saying we usually think about shareholder value for the next year or our stocks for the next year or whatever. I want to show the world that you can have human ingenuity, human flourishing, but also make

sure that we coexist with the natural world that we rely on for our survival. And we know that we do. I like that. I agree with that. Gideon What are we missing? You got any questions for Benji? Can I drink this?

Yeah, you can. You can drink whatever you. Did you personally brew this? Yeah, I did. That's got elk blood. All elk blood. Straight from the garage. Hopefully it's like Aaron Rogers.

Try it out. Try it out. It's elk blood. I love elk blood. What do you think? It's actually really good. You like it? Yeah.

Good. There you go. It's got 25 milligrams of CBD too. It literally says elk blood on it. I totally missed that. I thought that was what you're joking. Well, that was what Joe said, hey, do you want to come up with the energy drink? He's like, I said, yeah.

He goes, what would you call it? I'm like, elk blood. Is an elk your spirit animal? I don't know if I have a spirit. Do I have a spirit animal? James's spirit animal is. who who's that guy who wears makeup that uh charles james is it james charles that that's my spirit animal i'm so sorry this isn't shit talkers weekly oh yeah well that just came out of nowhere

yeah sorry sorry uh what you could be an elk by the way me yeah okay okay i'll think i think about it Yeah. You kind of touched on this, especially with like the climate change and everything like that. I feel like a lot of people associate being an environmentalist with that movement, with climate change. And then they kind of associate that with some of the fraud or dishonesty that they experience there. So how do you think we move away from people's thoughts about that as well as kind of companies trying to capitalize on that movement and just make money off of it and move more to where we're sharing what we're actually trying to do and giving people the truth? Great question. First, the first wave of environmentalism was what you and I care about.

That was the first wave. Second wave was this kind of Greta climate alarmism thing. The third wave is going to go back to the first, just in the 21st century. Like, we just got to take the movement back. And I don't mean that in like an aggressive way. I just mean like in a way that the people who spend the most time in the environment are the ones who are advocating for it. I talk to people all the time who are, you know, hunters, anglers, ATVers, people who recreate who don't fit the traditional environmentalist mold.

And I'm like, you are an environmentalist. Reclaim that because you are. You literally are the environmentalist is somebody who loves the environment and is willing to advocate for it. That's what we should be taking back. So I think it's just redefining the movement. And that's what we're trying to do at nature's nonpartisan. We don't have it all figured out yet. But there is a future where that's the voice of the environmentalist movement.

and the people who are kind of secondary to that are the people who have kind of dominated it. And for the companies that have profited off of it, I mean, part of the reason why the companies started to do this ESG stuff was because that's what the people were asking for. What's the ESG? Environmental Sustainable Goals is like the DEI of climate. Oh, got you. I actually will say that I think it was fairly well intended in the fact that they were just trying to meet the consumers where they were at and they were like oh the consumers care about climate change we're

going to have a climate change plan like i don't think there was some like master plan let's just like why why not change it so that all these companies start investing in conservation like use that to our brands want to associate with things that are popular at the time climate was popular right and let's make conservation protection of our wild space is popular end of story yeah i i i mean i would wear a shirt that says I'm an environmentalist because here when people think about that they think about like back in the early 90s the spotted owl shut down old growth logging yes everybody here worked in the in the woods right their timbers the industry here and so the the environment crazy environmentalist is what people would say chain themselves to trees right so he couldn't cut them down and that's what

everyone thinks of now so yeah but i am an environmentalist to your point more than they are Yeah, and it's just like, that's okay. Yes. So taking a back, redefining what it means, it doesn't mean that you're, you know. Driving a Prius. Yeah, and out there. Or it might mean that you are. Yeah, maybe, maybe, but you're not chaining yourself to a tree.

No, or throwing stupid paintings or blocking traffic. No, no, we care about the environment. That's it. And every time that you have free time, you're there. And every time I have free time, I'm there. Yeah. That's what an environmentalist would do. I like that.

I like that. What else you got? or do you have something else yeah okay um we've kind of talked about this on when cam and i do podcast but right now it's i feel like a lot of people are a little bit discouraged with politicians everything that seems like at every turn you know you're lied to or um misled or it's hard to get behind something like you guys have talked about and and take it at face value so the kind of what you're working on and the new thing that's going to come out, what are you guys doing to kind of maybe help defeat that feeling in people? The distrust? Yeah. Earn it. And look, I know that I have to

earn it with people and I'm going to continue to have to earn it. And how you earn trust when you're building a movement, I might, maybe this will fail epically when I look back in five years. But it's to show results. Like, we help stop the public land sell off. We, started this caucus, if the caucus doesn't do anything, that's our fault. Yeah, you're going to be judged on that. Right. That's okay. Right.

And then I can admit that that didn't work or it did. But we need a movement that actually can produce results. And if I in two or three years don't have any results, then I should be seriously reevaluating what I'm doing in my life. Yeah. And so I would say for those people who are distrustful, stay that way. Like, it should be trust. It should be earned.

And nobody should be blindly trusted. I actually think people trust too easily, right? Look at the real we were talking about earlier with this lady who created this conspiracy theory. Yeah. And every single person who commented believed it. And I had people messaging me who knew me for longer. They didn't even know this girl who were like, screw you, Benji, I can't believe you'd do this. Right.

We got to actually stop trusting so easily and start looking at results. And I can promise you that I'm either going to produce results with this and are moving. is or I'm not going to be doing it because I don't I don't care about this other than trying to get things done people I was on with van like I was talking about we were talking about do I care about recognition or do I not care about recognition the only way that the only reason I would ever care about recognition is if I got something actually done people ask me oh are you you going to write a second book or you're going to run for office or you're going to do all these things like first of all I would never write another book until I actually got

something done to write about what did you write your first book on kind of how I built the conservative environmental climate movement. Okay. And what we got done with that, which we did get stuff done. How long? When did that book come out? 20, early 2034.

Okay. Nice. And that's kind of what, you know, what matters to me is building trust on what actually get done. And so stay tuned, I guess. Yeah. Oh, that's, that's, yeah,

get judged on your results. I mean, I'm impressed. At 27, you got big goals. It's a and I and I like that you're you know what you want to do. It's a I don't know. Young people squared away always blow me away. When I was 27, I was like beer bonging beer and cap pissing whiskey probably wasn't really accomplishing too much. I can still play beer pong, you know, but.

You know what a beer bong is? Oh, I do know what one is. I think I've done that once. Yes. Don't recommend it. But like normally you people just pour whatever in there. Right. And then you just.

Yeah, no. It's probably not the smartest thing. Anyway, so that's what I was probably doing. So I'm impressed with you for sure. You got anything else? This one time, the last time I took a beer bong actually. Which was when? Today.

About 50 minutes before this podcast. I did, we did like two beers in the top or whatever, did it. And then I was, like, looking at the tube, it was see-through. And I was like, what is that? Oh, no. Cut it open and it was just chock full of mold. Oh, geez. That's all right.

Yeah. That's not bad. That probably actually helped you fight off some illness for the future. Yeah, you can say it was like a mouse in there or something. No, that would be bad. I did kind of have, I guess, I don't know, I'm trying to formulate my question about it, but you said, you know, results speak. And I think with politics, it's really hard.

And, you know, we've seen this is someone really does. want to make a difference. Someone's trying to. They have good intent, but they're met with kind of this like, I mean, how politics are now, which is like people want their agenda to be pushed and you need to do these favors or you need to be bought off this way and that way. So how do you plan to kind of mitigate that and make sure that your movement is heard on all levels and that you aren't having to succumb to these kind of back doorways? Yeah, I mean, it's a great question because for 10 years I've been trying to figure that out. I've been active with senators and house members since I was in freshman in high school or freshman in college was when we really started

advocating and I had some relationships that I could build off of in in the halls of Congress and stuff. But the answer to that is you just keep trying different avenues. Like I tried with this executive order with the president. I tried with this caucus. You try with the grassroots. You like you just keep trying, things will break through. And I'm not going to stop trying because I have had so many, I had way more failures in trying to get things across finish line and successes. But then you don't try to beat the dead horse, right? Like right now, the president hasn't taken the executive order very seriously. I'm not wasting my, I only have the same amount of energy and hours in the day that everyone else has. I'm not going to waste my energy and hours in the day in that. I already

put a lot of effort into that. I will go back to that if there's a there there. But I think, It's really just evolving for what the situation is. Right now, there's an election next year, and the environment isn't a priority, but the public land sell-off showed some spark for people standing together. That's how we got this caucus stood up in the Senate, because these senators kind of unearth themselves

as people who could team up together. So you just take whatever the situations are of that moment, be like, okay, let's try a few things, and whichever ones are working, you just keep putting energy towards, and whichever ones aren't. The other thing that I've always had a philosophy on is that anyone who donates will never be allowed to tell me what to do.

So you can donate, I don't care who you are. You can be a Democrat Republican, you could be a company that people hate or a company people love. The moment you tell me what to do, I'm done. And I would rather, again, lose my job and lose the organization than lose my moral compass. And, you know, that's something that I think also matters. I don't, I think doing the shady stuff works in the short term, but it doesn't build trust in the long term. And eventually people see through it.

And those people who you can kind of tell probably do that end up getting exposed later for doing stuff that you wouldn't have wanted them to do. So I think it's just staying true to the moral compass and trying things nonstop and trying to get creative and not being let down. I mean, I've had so many losses over the years that have hurt. so deeply and you just sulk for a second and then you get right the back up yeah yeah i mean that's that's all we that's all we can do um i will say president trump you signed an executive order with this young man do something or it's over my support's gone i love that we'll call i just i liked that you got that done you were back there you were like making a difference, dude.

And if nothing happens from it, that is frustrating. Yeah. That is frustrating because you did your part. You got it. You got it. You got buy-off on it. You got the president to sign it. Let's do something. I know.

That's it. But I'm going to keep trying stuff like that. Yeah. I love it. I love it. And I'll try that with the next Democrat administration. I don't care. You know, I think that's the other thing is like people are so afraid to be affiliated to.

I got so much shit. I lost donors. I lost so many people in my life because I worked with Trump on this executive order. I bet, and I lost board members over it. Guarantee the same thing happens when I work at the Democrat the next time, but it doesn't matter. That's too bad. I mean, it's, you know, like I said, let's listen to the message, not the messenger. Right.

You know, I mean, if the message is clear and makes sense and you can get behind it, who cares who's saying it. Right. And if we can move past that, I think that's a win. I think the country's moving more towards that. Yeah. I mean, I'm a big fan of what you're doing. I'm impressed. The fact that you're so smart, so young, so motivated to make a difference, it makes me feel good.

Well, I look up to you a lot, and the way that you stay grounded in life is something that means a lot to me. And, you know, I, this works not easy. I'm not looking for pity, but it's definitely not easy. And, you know, the way that you go through life kind of helps inspire me to keep going. It's an honor to be here. And at some point, it would be awesome to, you know, go out there and spend some time in the environment with you. Are you saying you want to hunt?

Yeah. It's like it's a proposal. Will you hunt with me? I love it. I love it. We're going to make it happen. Which will happen first, something on the EEO or a hunt. You know, that's the real question of this.

We'll have some betting odds. The EO's already signed. So that should be, that should happen first. But, yeah, thanks for coming. Thanks for sharing your story. I learned a lot today, and I hope other people do too. But mostly I have learned that I want to support what you're doing because I believe in it. And yeah, thank you for Benji.

Well, let's be eyes for a long time. Thanks for having me. All right. Keep covering, guys. Thanks. Someone to blame. They said that hate, it fuels my pace. I am Roy Tuff.

I am the change. The fuel in dirt feeling like Cam Hanks. Oh, give me the mods. Nobody wants.