Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 168 - Greg Poole

Episode Date: January 8, 2026

Greg Poole - a prominent figure in the archery and bowhunting community, best known as the founder, owner, and host of BowJunky Media. Greg’s a longtime professional archer who has competed at high levels for many years. Beyond competing, he's an industry insider with deep experience working in (and continuing to engage with) the archery world, covering everything from equipment, competitive shooting formats (like 3D, target, and field archery), to bowhunting ethics, gear optimization, and the business side of the sport. Join Cam and Greg for a deep dive into the world of competitive archery, bowhunting, modern hunting industry in 2026, controversy surrounding “speed bows”, up-and-coming names in the industry and more! Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes  Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/  Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com  Follow Greg: https://www.instagram.com/biggregpoole/  Timestamps: 00:00:00 – Controversy on the Internet About “Speed Bows” 00:07:31 – Everything Matters: Variables in Bowhunting, Speed, and Energy in Bow 00:18:36 – Hinge vs Thumb Button Releases 00:27:19 – Big Bucks, Trail Cameras, and Paying for Opportunity & Time 00:36:56 – Competition & What it Takes to Be the “Best Bowhunter” in 2026 00:46:59 – The Pinnacle of the Hunting Industry: Your Own Television Show 00:55:58 – Winning vs Competing, Social Media, Sponsors, and Marketing Yourself 01:06:09 – Testing & Optimizing Equipment and the Marketing Game 01:23:21 – Community Aspect in Bowhunting (Crossbows & Recreation) 01:30:34 – ATA (Archery Trade Association Show) 01:35:26 – Black Rifle Coffee, Evan Hafer, and Cutoffs 01:38:52 – Up-and-Coming Hunters, “Character Burnout”, and Bad Hunting Marketing 01:52:55 – Controversy with The Bowmar’s Hunting Strategies 02:06:56 – Not all Publicity is Good Publicity: Setting a Good Example   02:22:19 – The Value of Professional Bowhunters & Earning a Name in the Industry 02:49:41 – Competition from Hot Girl Hunters 02:55:24 – Continuing to Evolve to Hold Value and Credibility 03:06:51 – QA: F**k, Marry, Kill: Fast Bow Speed, Light Arrow Weight, Short Brace Weight 03:09:28 – QA: How Important is it for New Archers to Absorb the History of Hunting 03:13:29 – QA: Greg’s Calorie Count in the Backcountry  03:18:27 – Final Thoughts Thank you to our sponsors: Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off  Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order Wild Alaskan: https://wildalaskancompany.com/cameron use code CAMERON for $35 off your first box Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off

Every step I take, I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop, I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel. Gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I'm moving so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. This is a Keep Hammering Collective with Greg Poole.

Dude. What's going on, brother? Hey, this is, okay, I've been looking. I'm going to say that I look forward to every podcast because we have to say that. But this one I really have just like an ode. I just told Rogan this morning, you're the OG archery guy. I just love, well, okay, here's a few things that are like,

you've been around forever. You say whatever the fuck you want. I mean, for the most part, there's probably some shit that maybe we can't say, but we want to. But in general, you just tell it like it is. And you've like been in the industry for decades.

And I just love, basically anytime you're on a pot of, I'm like, I'm listening to that because you always have, your takes are always spot on. I mean, talking about haters or talking about Rogan or talking about whatever. You're like, whatever you say, just makes sense to me. Well, first of all, I appreciate it, pound it. Oh, yeah. We've, we've, no, I still remember, I appreciate that comment, but I, no, but.

I remember the first time we ever met, and I've told this story before, I think it was like 2002. at Spothog when you were in the acid wash denim days. Oh, yeah. The pants, the jacket, the fanny pack. We actually met upstairs while Cave Johnson was doing some work on the shooting machine. Oh, yeah, yeah. The hooter shooter? Yeah.

Yeah. And so, you know, we've met each other way back then. But no, man, I mean, you know, that's the thing is when you pre, not the whole internet, but in this space, when you predate the internet and you predate social media, a lot of people can't necessarily compartmentalize that and understand, one, that that existed. Yeah. And number two, how things went then versus how they go now. Yeah.

Like, I mean, I was just showing you a piece of technology from 20 plus years ago. Right. That companies right now are all scrambling to incorporate into their bows. And it's like that was around way simpler. decades ago. But no, man, I mean, that's kind of my thing is just, you know, respectful is a relative term. And so saying what you want to say is one thing, how you say it's another. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, but people get, they get worked up on how you say it. Oh, 100%. Instead of just listening to like, okay, and we were talking about this, I think on when we're

talking about, well, it's, it's funny. I was looking at this old bow with you. This is like, I I shot PSE back in the day, but the comment that got people all worked up recently was something about speed and forgiveness and PSC's speed. Listen, I've been a PSE dick writer for a long dude. I remember. I was obsessed with getting a Mach 6. And then I finally got my own bow, the Mach 10, CRH Blacktail. I did break like three limbs a year with this thing.

Yeah. Because this press, whatever it was right here. But listen, I don't, I love all, all bows. I love all archery. I love this industry. I love everything we do. But man, we get really worked up. Oh, well, all right.

Let's just dive into it. Okay. So first of all, if you haven't seen the comment that Cam's talking about, he basically said, wire hunters, we as a collective. And this is the thing that I respect about you. And I do the same. When you and I have a comment about something that the hunting community is doing, right or wrong, it's we.

Oh, I would love to say they. Yeah. The problem is it's not a they thing. It's a we thing. Just what it is. And I hear you do it, and so I appreciate that as well. So the comment that you made about, you know, and I guess, unfortunately, but also publicity is a good thing and a couple people follow you is even naming the PSC Sicario is good for them.

Yeah. I maybe I maybe shouldn't have done that because it made it like really pointed, but I don't care. Yeah, but, but it's what I was talking about. But here's the point. What other mainline bow company, Hoyt, Matthews, PSE, Botech, Prime, Elite, there's some, but how many of those companies are promoting and chasing the speed game in 2006? Not many. There's none.

The answer's none. PSC? Yeah. And so, and they're not even really chasing it. that was a that was a bow that kind of made sense for them. PSC has historically been on the speed game, but your comment was 100% spot on. And so seeing people's reactions to it to me,

I'm just like, I don't understand why people are getting so bent about it because your comment was, it was 100% accurate, about 90% of the market. Yeah, yeah. You know, 60% of the time, it works every time. All I said was a speed bow like 3.5%.

50, I think, is what they do with a, it's like a five-something inch brace height. That bow, if you're perfect, it's going to be great. And some guy said he's shot a 300. I'm like, great. Awesome. Good for you. Maybe you're just really good. For most people, you said 90%. Most people, a speed bow in a hunting scenario is going to be a disaster. Well, it is, and there's lots of reasons. And so we've all been around shops long enough to know that we've seen people walk in and go, oh, I want to shoot that 360 foot per second bow. I want to shoot 360. And the first thing, most everyone in the shop will say in their head, because they don't want to hurt his feel bads, is you're not gonna. You're 5'8. Right. So you're not shooting that fast. Number two, have you ever drawn one of those

bows? They're a nitro fuel dragster. Yeah. It's not a Cadillac. No. And so what do you want? And then people will literally try it and be like, what else you got? So you add up a super light arrow to get there. You every, all these things have high let off. So now you have string tension and there's just, it just compounds the. So your comment about missing super fast was not wrong. Yeah. It was 100% accurate.

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Black Rifle Coffee, veteran founded America's Coffee. What's funny to me is the people that got the most upset about it are people that don't do that. Yeah. It's like I don't get mad at you for running 50 miles at a time. Yeah. Just don't do it. I just don't do it. Like literally when you asked me on here the next day, I'm like, hey, you're not going to make me run with you, are you?

Yeah. Like, it's just what it is. Yeah. I know. We're just talking archery. Yeah. And so, but that is kind of what the internet has did is it's made people react to things that have nothing to do with them. Oh, yeah, yeah.

No, they get kind of butt hurt about, so why are you upset again? What was this about? Right. And it's all I, okay, anything I say is generally all I care about is hunting. All I care about is, you know, achieving my hunting goals. So when I look at these bows and these things or what, everything is always through this lens of hunting. And I just know, I mean, I don't shoot high letoff.

I shoot, okay, people will say, well, why do you shoot 90 pounds if you don't worry about speed? I'm like, it's a whole completely different thing. Right. I shoot a tall brace height bow. I like a seven inch brace height if I can get it. At, to get any speed out of that, I'm going to have shoot 90 pounds because I'm 27.5 inch straw. Right. But I don't shoot high let off.

I still shoot low letoff because I'm, again, For people who don't know, a high letoff bow, you can move that anchor around pretty good because you can't feel it. There's no, there's less tension. It's rough. And it's like, because people could take that comment and say, oh, you can't feel a high letoff bow. Yeah, maybe I could have rewarded it.

You can feel it. It's just easier to be off. So I'm like trying to control all these things. People see this thing sitting here. Every arrow I weigh, it has to be within one grain before it goes in my quiver. And what I explained like to Joey Roll or to Joe or to anybody who gets into archery is everything matters. Right. Everything matters.

So if everything matters, what of these things that matter is going to help you? What's going to hurt you? Correct. That's it. A short brace height bow is potentially going to hurt you. Correct. Not potentially. Unless you are at a certain level.

Well, it'll really hurt you. All I'm saying is, okay, any controlled environment on the range, 20 yards, paper, there's your X, whatever, pull back, take your time, do whatever you want, completely different than hunting. Yes, right? Is that to say a person couldn't release a perfect arrow hunting? No, you can. The odds are going down, okay, with all these scenarios. Every heartbeat, it goes down. Right.

So I'm just like trying to control what I can control. control. And what I've learned in 40, so I've been hunting for 40 years, I've been bow hunting since 89, so it's like 37 seasons, something like that. What I've learned in hunting is, it's hardly ever like on the range at the bow rack at 20 yards. I don't shoot tournaments. I never really have been a paper shooter. So I don't, I can't really speak to that. But I have shot at the bow rack a lot. I have shot on my bet. It's a lot different hunting. Right. Okay. It's things are happening a million miles an hour emotions are going animals are reacting and so yeah i'm trying to put all the things that i can control all those odds i spoke of in my favor of possible correct so i'm shooting the straightest arrow

okay i'm shooting i'll pay more for the for what i think is the best arrow an arrow is different from everything else so you can talk about the bow talk about the release talk about the letoff okay an arrow is is separate on its own. Yep. Is this straight? Is it going to fly? It's what's the highest likelihood I'm going to release an accurate arrow.

Can that arrow affect where I'm going to hit? Yes, it can. Yeah, 100%. Based on tolerance, right? So if I look at everything individually and people will say, well, oh, you talked about releases,

you know, and you say that they're advantage for target, but they're not, yeah, they're not for hunting. They're different. In my opinion, for me, they're different for hunting. I want an index release. So I'm just looking at all this just through the lens of hunting. If you want to argue about it, you're going to lose. You're going to lose because I'm putting every odd in my favor for hunting only. You're looking at it. TAC is a completely different thing. Oh, yeah. 100%. Shoot your high poundish bow, light arrow with a field point, glue, glue in the same thing. whatever, make it as light as possible. I don't give a... It's not hunting.

Right. It's not hunting. You're not worried about penetration. You're not worried about anything. You're worried about just tack, right? Yeah. That's different than Vegas. That's different than hunting.

These are all different things. You can optimize for each one. Yeah. So the thing that I've been saying to people about your comment, because it got sent to me freaking tons of times, was they're like, And there's even people made some videos about it. They're like, well, why do you shoot a 90-pound bow?

And I've literally told everybody, it's not for speed. It's for energy. Yeah, definitely. So if you take, like, I'm not shooting 90 pounds. Right. Guess why? Yeah. Because I got a 32-inch draw length.

I thought it's 42. Right? Yeah. I don't have to. Yeah. And so I shoot a either, depending on my build, I either shoot a 520 grain arrow or a 600-grain arrow. I have two builds. That's awesome.

70 pounds. It's a lot of energy. Yeah. Dude, it's like 104. Yeah. Well, I guarantee you that yours is probably that or more too. You're just having to use because of the draw length differential, you're having to use poundage to shoot a heavier arrow, but probably getting the same kinetic energy that I am. Right.

It's not a speed thing. It's an energy thing. Right. Exactly. And how fast you think I could shoot if I shot a 350 grain arrow? dude, it'd be like 340. Yeah. I'm good.

Yeah. I've been there. I've done that. And you just can't control it. No. You can't control it. So I'm not going to do it in hunting. We used to do, and way before tack, we used to do skins.

Right. It's a dollar a target. Yeah. You know? And it's like, best arrow at every target gets the pot. We cared about that like it was like the Super Bowl. Right. Like, oh, we're going to go, we're doing skins today at the, or,

whatever at Myrtle Creek, okay, it's on. You are optimizing that setup, lightest arrows you could find, most poundage, because, you know, this is unmarked. So, and just before, you couldn't have rangefinders, even if they had them. So we're just judging yardage. It matters how fast that arrow shoots, right? That's a whole other matter. So we've been through all the tiny little veins, the super thin light arrows, everything. It's, they'd bend if you looked at them, but they're light, right? And that's different than hunting. Right.

So we can we, we can look at all this in, and calculate it and make decisions based on what we're turned to do. But yet to your point, it's, it's not so much speed is a function of energy, but it's just one part of it. Correct. For me to get any energy, I need speed. For me to get speed at 27.5,

I have to have poundage. Right. Because I don't want to give up. You're also sacrificing energy with a lighter arrow. So I don't want a light arrow. That's right. I want to around a 500 grain arrow. So for all that to work, 90 pounds.

Yeah. But the vast majority of people that walk into archery shops are barely shooting a 400 grain arrow. Right. Barely. Well, if the vast majority, and this is back to your comment, your comment was spot on, people just didn't like the fact that it was true, whether it applied to them or not. Right. And so, you know, when it comes to like all the things that you're a sandbagger. Yeah.

You're a total sandbagger. You act like you can't shoot very good. You act like you don't know what's going on with your bows. You are full of shit campaigns. You are way smarter and you're a way better shot than you let on. So you can keep that. Yeah. Calling you out, player.

You can sigh all you want. Peep, you are a really good shot. No, you never did the tournaments because you don't give a shit about that. Yeah. But anyone who's watched you shoot. out at the farm or anyone that's watched you shoot animals that shit don't happen on accident right and we've all gotten lucky on animals so i'm saying but you're a really good shot right over time usually the truth comes to that's what i'm saying so you're a really good shot and you always kind of downplay

your knowledge of stuff and look man you're you know half half a mile from one of the best bow shops in the country and wayne's awesome and so you have access to something that is yeah i'm lucky for sure. You are blessed with that. Yeah. But you're a good shot. Now, are you going to come to Vegas and drop 900s with Bodie Turner? Yeah. I'm not either. But, but you don't care about that. Right. But as far as what you've done and what you do, you're a really good shot. You should consider giving yourself more credit there, but you're not going to. But, you know, that's just something that, you know, comes with learning. Like you, you were mentioning the wrist strap release. Yeah. Dude, I was hunting out in Western Oregon, out in the strawberries in like 2006. Eastern Oregon. Eastern Oregon. Yeah. And I'm out there and I had the old Jim Fletcher.

And man, on the bag in practice in camp, wad. Yeah. Wadding. Dude, we got out on an animal and I missed. Like, hi God. Like full blown karate chop. It was terrible. Yeah.

Twice. Oh. Go back to camp and I'm like, shit. What do I do now? Go back to the bags, wad them up. So I actually pulled out my zenith hinge. And I've shot a hinge for hunting ever since. Okay.

I'm not recommending that for everybody. Right. Just like I don't recommend people run 200 miles at a time like you do. Yeah. Yeah. Everything ain't for everybody. Right. I'm a firm believer and know your role.

Yeah. So for me, the hinge was like home. So when I would draw back, I mean, like for me, because I'm not, you and I are not in the same conversation when it comes to hunting. You are elite. I'm petite. And so, and so. But when I draw back, I tell myself on an animal every time. The antelope I got in Colorado this year, I'm like, you're not shooting, Greg.

Just draw back. see how you're aiming. Because for me, it seems like no matter where I go, as soon as I come to draw on an animal, an earthquake happens. Yeah. And it's off. Seismic.

Yeah. And I'm like, all right, we're just going to see how you're aiming here. And if I'm aiming good, my release will click. Yeah. Not because I make it. Oh, I see. So when I draw back, if I'm aiming good enough, my form, because I've did it so many times,

my form will just go click. And then I'm like, oh, we're doing this. Bunk. Yeah. And we're good. That's not for everybody. But like I was telling you right before we went on air, if you are shooting a hinge or if you are shooting a thumb button, you got to be able to send it. Yeah.

Because the animal ain't waiting. Yeah. What it is. I'm just curious. So in that, I haven't messed around with it like that to know. But when you say you can send it, is that, I mean, I'm just thinking about with my, I got a wise guy. Before that, I shot Scott forever, but I shot a Fletcher back in the day with a little rope and then I think a whatever else. Yeah.

So I've been index forever. I've messed around with other stuff. But I know generally the mechanics of the index are exactly the same. Either you take your time slow squeeze or you punch it slow squeeze. Mechanics are the same. When you send it, like you said with a hinge, is it exactly the same? When it comes to seafood, most people don't really know. know what they're buying. Where it came from, how it was raised, or what you're actually putting in your

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Whether you're running deep in the backcountry or just stacking meat for the weekend, Grizzly is built for that grind. Right now, you can get 20% of the ground. off at grislycoolers.com with the code keep hammering and that's all one word and I'm not going to spell it keep hammering again keep hammering one word for 20% off don't roll with weak gear go go grizzly uh no it's slightly different the problem is with a hinge or a thumb button if you squeeze it to get it to go off you're going to move out of your people you're going to miss right So basically, if you have a handheld release and you need to let one go, folks, if you try this, be up close to the target or be in the middle. All you have to do is relax this index finger because that's where all the tension is.

So if you just are here and you just relax this index finger is gone. And so you could have the anchor you need. You can have every, okay. Yes. I just think that it feels like that's a lot in the heat of the moment. 100% is. And I know, so I don't know if you, we had this film come out this just recently. It's called the Bow Hunter.

But did you see the shot on the bowl that I killed? Yes. So basically through the, I had a tiny little hole. I had to, he, I tried to stop him. He didn't stop. So I'm like, I got to shoot right now. Right. If you haven't, if you're not familiar with how that works or you have to do something weird like you just said with your index finger or your anchor, if you try to do like this.

You're blowing it on a once in a lifetime bowl. 100%. That's why I say is for, and I don't know, on my experience, I don't think you can beat an index for hunting. Basically, you're right. It's very, very rare occasions. Now, I'm going to say a name here. I'm not comparing myself to him.

Levi Morgan. Like, I'm not comparing myself to Levi Morgan by any stretch of the imagination. He is, though, the standard. Oh, God. Dude, Levi's, yeah, it's ridiculous. So when this whole speed, forgiveness, bullshit, people are getting all worked out for no reason for the truth. I just texted him.

I said, hey, tell me about, for tournaments and hunting, tell me about your bows, which is, what's the brace height? Yeah. What do you think he said? Oh, seven plus. He said, six for tournaments, seven for hunting. Right. The best in the world.

Yeah, it depends what tournaments he's shooting. Yeah, for the IBO stuff, yeah, absolutely. So it's like he's the standard. Yeah. So that's different than what we were just talking about. That was more brace height, which is speed kind of related. But go ahead to your point. Like what did you bring him up right there?

Well, so he shoots a hinge whenever he wants as well. And so unless you have literally a million arrow shot count with a hinge or whatever, what I'm talking about is not for everybody. Right. You are 100% right. Do you know who Doug Koenig is? Yeah. He's one like...

Is he a pistol guy? He shoots all the guns. Yeah. He's won like 20 Bianchi Cups. Right. He's... He's the Mount Rushmore. Yeah.

And so I was at a national sales meeting for an optics company and we were shooting rifles and everything and I show up and Doug's there and all these operators are there and I'm just the archery guy. But they all shoot archery. Mm-hmm. So, We're at a little break between shooting and Doug comes over to him. He goes, have a question.

I'm like, oh, do you? Okay. He goes, I love to shoot my bow and I hunt. Now, remember folks, Doug conning, the goat of shooting firearms. Keep that in mind. So he's shooting at his shop and one of the shop employees says, hey, man, we need to work on you not punching the trigger. And so he's asking me, what do I do?

And I said to him, well, this is simple. Are you shooting your bow the exact same shot process and execution that you do with your guns? And he goes, yeah. I go, don't change a thing. Don't change anything. You're literally the greatest rifle firearm shooter. No. Do that.

And I'm like, how often do you miss? he's like, oh, I don't really miss animals. Yeah. I'm like, and so you're going to consider changing because some dude that a shop said, it looks like you're kind of punching it. Right. And so that's the difference between what is quote unquote textbook. You know, like your release hand.

People look at it and they're like, oh, he does this and his finger. And I'm like, yeah, okay. Well, next time you see Reggie Miller or Larry Bird walk up to them and tell him, on that their jump shots look like trash and they need to change it. Yeah, yeah. Goes in the hole. Right.

Did it go in the hole? Did it go in the hole? Did the arrow hit where I wanted? Yeah, it's, and also people get, I think they get a little confused because they see the anchor back here. But look at the string. Right.

Okay, the string's not in my face. It's barely touching my nose. I do have either sometimes a Beaumar nose button or just a kisser for here. But I have a kisser. I have this. So if you're looking at like the mechanics of me shooting, Just forget about this part.

Right. Because this part is the same every time. No different than if you're sucked in like this or like, you know, whatever. Whatever you're doing, it's the same. So let's look at the string. Is the string impeded? No, my face is out of the string. So let's look at the mechanics.

And that the arrow, the string, everything is exactly perfect, exactly what anybody wants. Right. So ignore the part you're focusing on for some weird reason because it might be different. And this will have gotten what matters. Oh, yeah. Dude, I mean, look, back in the day, everyone knows what archery talk is. Or at least everybody knows what archery talk used to be. But back in the day, people would post pictures of like Jesse Broadwater or the greatest shooters that have ever lived.

It was just a joke. And then put, how's my form? Yeah. And people would tear them to shreds. Criticize. Yeah. So people on the internet are going to criticize the greatest. They're going to criticize everything and everybody.

It doesn't matter who it is. Right. Yeah. And I don't know how often they show y'all this room. Yeah. But Ace Ventura's room of death and got nothing on this place. Well, and so this has like been a lifetime of whatever, but I have been also on some. I mentioned Winnihaw.

That was 24 years of putting in. But there's a lot of hunts that mean like, they're like true once in a lifetime either. money, draw, whatever, just shit's not going to happen. I have to believe in what I do. And I have to believe there's nothing that's going to stop me from killing this animal. So how do you get that confidence? It's all these little things, all this practice, all these, you know, this visualization. But yeah, it's worked out pretty good over the years.

You think? And I don't know, you know, people talk about, oh, must be nice to do this hunt, that hunt, whatever. It's like, when you know, if you're going to. if you make a fucked up shot, blood hits the ground and it's not a fatal arrow, you're paying sometimes 100 grand. Yeah. $100,000 on an arrow. Right.

And plus then the disappointment in all these hopes and dreams, letting the animal down, the animal potentially suffering, the people who you're with, that your family who believed in you said, yeah, oh, that's a lot of money, but, you know, it's like all this shit is weighing on you. So until you've been in that situation, I don't know, maybe shut the fuck up. I'm a, I, no lies, no lies detected. Well, I mean, no, I'm joking people. You can say all your stupid shit you want to.

It doesn't matter. I'm not joking. I'm not joking at all. Like literally, you should consider keeping your lips together. But, I mean, I'm, I'm glad you bring that up. And that's the, that's the money thing. Have you seen this latest thing that has everybody triggered on the, the internet. Guys are, now this is going to sound very familiar since you're an OG as well.

And I've never heard of you doing this, but this is, you're going to have heard this. Okay. This guy set up a pile of trail cameras on public land. And he has spent hundreds of hours out there scouting, finding deer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then he is selling that information to whoever wants to buy it and go hunt those animals. And people are losing their minds. And I'm like, do y'all know how long that like that's not new? Yeah. That's not new. And so I'm glad you bring that up, you know, especially like number one, you do this for a living. Levi and the people that do shows do it for a living. And, you know, Joe doesn't do it for a living.

But the thing that really irritates me is how people get so upset about people with, with opportunities and means they don't have. But it's about time. Right. Definitely. You don't have time to go spend a month in New Mexico hoping you draw a certain, I made up New Mexico. I don't know.

But you don't have the time. with putting 50 trail cameras out. And to live out there with these, you don't have the time to go to step. Maybe I'll draw this year. Exactly. And then what? You're screwed. This is what you do for a living.

Yeah. And so guys like Joe and, you know, guys like Levi that have a show to produce, what you're paying for is opportunity and time. Right. Yeah. I mean, if all of a sudden the sky opened up and you and Joe Rogan could spend a month somewhere scouting, you would get the same animal. Yeah.

But the money you pay is because you don't have the time to do it. Right. Yeah. And this is going to hurt some feels. It's not like when you go slam a monster blacktail or mule deer elk that they go, oh yeah, Cam, see that bush with that trail over there? He's going to come out there at 7.07 a.m. Yeah.

But that happens a lot hunting some other animals now, doesn't it? Yeah, for sure. It's it's it's it's a and people will say they'll like lump me in with that and you know we're talking white tail are pretty predictable right you can to kill usually don't luck into killing a 200 inch white tail oh no no no no so if somebody's doing that they're putting in a lot of work and they're busting in their ass or they're paying a lot of money right that's all there is to it that's how it works and you can they are more predictable is it is it guaranteed No. A 200-inch white tail. It's going to be seven years old probably. And it's going to be smart. It knows the game. So you're going to have to do everything right. And somebody's going to have to, somebody either you or somebody else is going to have to put in a lot of time to do that. With elk, mule deer, blacktail, bear are a little easier. But they're not predictable. I mean, it can happen not very often. Do you think people understand like white tail or excuse me. Yeah. And the white tail are, that's a whole other thing.

And it is 85% of our market. I'm not dissing white tail folks. I love big. I mean, I got big white tail here. I love them. But it's just a different game. Yeah.

But I love all bonnie. Mule deer and elk aside. How many people that have watched you and consume your content really understand how hard it is. for you to bebop out into the hills over here and slam some of the blacktail that you do because that's literally like hunting in the amazon yeah there's logging roads everywhere every swing and dick with a bow and a tag is up there driving all the logging roads do you think people understand that how hard just that part is because you'll literally go out for an afternoon and kill black tails that people are like i've never even seen a black

black tail that big and you just like so do you do you think people comprehend how hard that is? I mean blacktail are kind of unique species you know so yeah not not a lot of people hunt blacktail people who hunt blacktail know they they know that killing big blacktail's tough right and uh but that's for the west coast people it's a most people yeah no they they they wouldn't know because they hadn't done it. But it's, it's, I'm going to say all bow hunting is hard. So like there's guys. Like I'm always looking about like the next generation of guys coming up.

And everybody kind of wants to skip the line a little bit and and be at the top before they kind of pay their dues. But I'm like, I'm looking at these young guys and be like, this kid is, he works his ass off. He's, you know, it just takes time usually. And I'm not, I'm not criticizing these younger guys because I was that younger guy. Right. And I did write a book. I don't know. I did write a blacktail book and I'd only killed seven bucks.

So people could say, who the fuck are you to write a book? You've only killed, I've killed more, more, um, mule deer, but, um, seven blacktail, trophy blacktail. And I wrote a book on it. So I get to skipping the line part. But you can tell. somebody's passion. I just like, I want to support some of these young guys

because I know how the industry is. The industry loves to eat our own. And they love to, they want to ruin people. If they think that their competition or if they think they're getting a little too much shine, they'll be like, you know what?

I think you need to be humbled or whatever the case. Even if this kid is like something special. So I like, I understand how it works. I get people, who might not understand who, um, maybe like you said, Blacktail, maybe they don't get it, whatever. I'm all good with people just loving what we do,

wanting to dream big because I was that. But this shit takes time. Oh, awesome. The whole point to all that was it's a grind. It's, it takes time to make a name, to prove yourself, to have these consistent results. And everybody wants it sooner than maybe it should, happen, but it's a tough industry in that way. I mean, you've, you've been around it forever.

Right. What do you think is the biggest hurdle for, like, say somebody wants to be a big name in bow hunting? What is the hardest, hardest part of that? 2006. 2006. I don't know. So, well, there's a big difference. Because back then, you know, and this is something I talk to people a lot about, and this has to go to the ATA and kind of how the whole interaction is going 25 years ago how much did let's just say 20 years ago because you were you've been on the climb for a while now how much access did the general public get to cam haines you could read his books you could read his articles and then you can see features on him in magazines and maybe see him at a show right that's it yeah everybody knows because of social media everybody knows what you did yesterday

at least the amount you put out on the internet. Right. So people feel like they have a connection and a relationship with you. And that didn't exist 20 years ago. Yeah. And so that's why the ATA now you don't see companies. And there's no offense to any of the companies. This is just the way it is.

You and the Likoskis and Ted Nugentz and you don't see them bringing in everybody for signings anymore. Yeah. Because people feel like they know you. Right. So are they going to stand? in line for 45 minutes to get an autograph when they consume your content and comment and you might comment or like it back. And so they feel like they have this relationship with you. Well, that's changed the entire landscape of the industry, especially for what you're talking

about, like trying to get into it. Right. There's a couple ways to go about it. And there's a couple young kids. And really, it's just going to be a matter of, well, how do you plan on breaking into it? You can buy your way into it. If you are independently wealthy or dads independently wealthy, you can go kill a bunch of hammers for five years, have some little bit of personality. And your social media will do very, very well. Not saying that those animals don't count. But it's a different scenario than someone, like there's a couple of James Visser from Boe disciples. Yeah. He's just a fun dude.

Yeah. Yeah. Big personality. Yeah, he doesn't care about killing the biggest of everything. No. He goes out and hunts. He does well, but he does tournaments, and he just likes to have fun with it. Ty Jordan.

He's another kid. He's doing very well right now. He's all about the flight of the arrow and creative content. But he's not out there killing 200s and 400s every day. So how you want to build your foundation to get to where they are. It's harder now. Let me rephrase that. It's easier now to build a page that has a million followers, whether it's on TikTok, TikTok, Instagram, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Nope, I'm good. Whether it's TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, whatever platform you want to say, it's easier to build a million following following page now than it is to have the credibility of someone that built that when social media wasn't as big of. factor. Yeah, organically, yeah. Correct. And so that's built on, that's built on accomplishments. You can build a page like that without necessarily having that level of accomplishments. Is one better than the other? I don't know, I'd start asking about conversions. And I could nerd out on the conversion thing and, you know, look, I'm a diet in the wool asshole. I've been on

the marketing side forever. And so when somebody, like, I've known you forever, but when someone comes to, you know, talk about sponsorships and stuff, I'm like, well, show me your demographic information for your page. Well, what do you mean? I have this many followers. Yeah, I want to see where. Yeah. Where are they?

India. Yeah. Somebody gets it. So, yeah. Those are all fake. Thank you. Or if you look at a page. They're not buying shit.

Correct. Or if you look at a page that has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of followers. and each post gets 12 likes. That's not real. Yeah. It's not real. There's a lot out there. And it's like to your point on the marketing,

all they give a about can you move product? Conversion, yes. Can you move product? So you mentioned like your dad could have money. You could go kill all the stuff. Somebody like that isn't going to sell product. I mean, it's just they're not going to convert. It's just there's no.

With how this works now, social media. Yes, you have to connect with people. We used to do that at the shows. That's why I used to love going to the shows so I could see the bone collector guys. So I can see Waddell. And I was in the industry. So a lot of people in the industry would be lining up to get an autograph, right? And so yeah, I get that. But the point is, it's like just money and just killing big stuff. It doesn't really result in, I think, where people hope it would. No. The personalities, like the James Visser style, the fun, the, I mean, I took a different route, like, way more serious.

And people would say, you don't have to train like a professional athlete to Bowhunt. So I did a different one. But I was relatable to somebody who had a job who still had dreams. So that's my connection to people, just like a regular guy who has big dreams. Dude, you had a job. Yeah, yeah. Like a forever job job. Yeah, right.

You work for the city of Eugene or something. Springfield Utility Board. Springfield Utility Board for like 27 years. Yeah, yeah. While. Yeah. While concurrently doing all the shit everybody else saw. Ignite isn't your average energy drink.

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The way you did it chose you. Yeah, basically, yeah. Because how many other people are literally going to be capable of being chosen by the path that chose you? Yeah, not many.

It's, I was definitely lucky. But, you know, when you think about, I was just, we loved bow hunting. Right.

And then I loved writing. I wasn't that great at writing. I didn't think. But I loved sharing my stories. What I had to like hustle. And like, I remember, you know, when I was working with Eastman's, it was always like this big thing on,

so that advertisers, you know, running a magazine, you need advertisers, right? So if I could get advertisers that gave me influence, not only with the people, but with the magazine, with Eastman's, because I was helping. So I remember one time, I was working so hard with Jonathan Shepway

to get them an ad, to put an ad in Eastman's, that, and I don't know, I don't know why I cared so much, but this is like I wanted to make everybody happy. I'm always like, I think it's just kind of an example of hustling. I paid for the PSC ad to go in the magazine. I paid $1,100 or something.

Right. I paid for it. I paid for PSC's ad to be in East. Why? Because I was like, I knew this, this is how this works for this magazine to succeed. We need advertising for I can't have, because the knock would be like, oh, well, these companies, they sign you, then they don't have to advertise in the magazine.

You know what I mean? Kind of. To me, it always worked best when there was an ad and the editor was shooting it. 100%. Because then it's like they're getting hit from two different directions, right? From the professional ad and then from the organic, I'm killing shit.

But sometimes it didn't work that way because PSC has budgets. Eastman's needed money, you know, whatever. I'm like, I was like kind of coming up. So it put a lot of pressure on There was readers who would send shit in and say, I'm so sick of seeing Cam's face in this magazine because it was like I'd be on a feature, I'd be in a five-page feature,

then on seven of my sponsor's ads. Spothog, winner's choice, PSE, if that's what it was. And so then I'm on every page in there, plus, and people were just like, I thought this was our magazine. I thought this was for, you know, the D.S.E.

DIY guy in this all cam. So there was this like balance, but I would point is, I think is what I wanted to get to is I was hustling, thinking about the business part of it all the time and also like the optics part and like trying to play the game. Right. So this has been going on for a long time. 100%. And that that money you spent was an investment in yourself, not an investment in your sponsor. Yeah. It makes total sense. You don't even want to know the amount of money I've spent on shit that had nothing to do with me personally, but it furthered what I was trying to work on. Right. It's like, you go on a hunt.

You're like, you hope that you're successful. If it's a good animal, you're going to reap the rewards from that success. Right. Right. So you have to pay for the hunt and hopefully it comes back. And hopefully, or maybe you go on so many of these hunts and then you have all this success, you can write a book. And I would trick myself into thinking that, oh, I'm a professional writer.

I would make $25 from an Oregon hunter magazine article and spend thousands hunting. Right. So it's like for a while there, it didn't really work. Yeah. You mean like the guys that go, oh, going out and hunting, the meats way cheaper than a store. Right. Yeah. No. Not even close. So that brings up a great point. Okay. Since you started up until in your career, probably 10 years ago, what was considered the pinnacle of the hunting? industry having a television show. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I, dude, I was a, I wanted a hunting

TV show. I wanted to be the host. So why didn't you? I've asked you this question before, multiple times. So why didn't you? If, I mean, let's be honest here. Okay. If that's the, not for everybody. Yeah. But if having a television show is the quote unquote pinnacle of what people consider in the hunting industry, why didn't you ever do it? Well, I wanted it. I tried. So if I'm being, if I'm being objective, I don't think I was good enough. I don't know how else to say it. Because I was trying, I was hustling. I was like, I was the host for Rocky Mountain Elk for Elk Fever. It was a host of Eastman's, but I wanted like a road trips. Right. You know, Waddell to me, and there's pictures of some, oh yeah, right there. Yeah. Wadell to me was the

ultimate hunting superstar. You know, I know there's people before. There's Chuck Adams who I loved and, you know, just obsessed over. There's Dwight Shoe. There's Larry Jones. There was Randy Ulmer, all these superstars, right? Miles Keller when I first came up. Lots of lots of people but to me in my era michael waddell was the one he had it all funny is a great shot um he's good at business yes you know and that's part of what i was seeing also is like god this guy gets it so anyway i wanted a road trips and i remember i talked to woemack one time we were in in utah like a million years ago and i'm like could we ever do anything because he was like the best at the time. He was doing road trips originally, and that show was cutting edge.

So I was working hard. Like, how do I get an opportunity? And I just couldn't, I couldn't make it happen. I thought I had one one time the program director at Outdoor Channel, Jeff, God, what was his last name? Anyway, he was in charge of all the programs. So I did a pilot, and I called it Beast Mode Bowhunting. And I had a hunt with Roy killing a brown bear. It's on my YouTube channel right now. And I always, like, built up this hunt. This is going to be Beast Mode boating.

This is kind of what the adventures we're going to do is like hardcore Alaska, cutting, you know, on the edge of everything. Big brown bear on our own. And they said, they said, yeah, Roy's not really. We wanted you to be like a superhero. And I'm like, I like the superhero bow hunter, like, because I trained into all this. And I'm like, I said, listen, I'm, Roy is a superhero. Right.

Roy is the one. He's gangster. I'm like, you don't get any more hardcore than this guy. They're like, yeah, it doesn't. We were wanting you to be the. He doesn't fit the mold. Right. And so I was just like, that was probably as close as I was.

And I chose the path to, I wanted to, I wanted to share Roy. you know, because he's like such a badass. And I knew it. But it just didn't work. So I had opportunities. Like if I was good enough, people would have seen me on the Rocky Malnalk show and been like, this guy needs his own, his own show. Or they would have seen me host Eastman's and be like, this guy's a superstar.

He needs his, that never happened. So that, to me, that tells me if I'm looking in the mirror, I wasn't good enough. That didn't happen, period? Or that didn't happen that you heard of? that I heard of, I guess. Yeah. So that's not saying it didn't happen. I don't know.

I mean. And I mean, I don't want to salt anyone. I didn't have my own show. Well, this is true. And I don't want to salt anyone's game, but you've seen the quality of some of these hunting shows over the last 20 years. But that's also a little bit different because you could, to your point about money, you could pay to have your own show. Oh, 100%. You could be the worst on camera, the worst hunter.

you got money you got oh you want to pay for air time you're like me is me like me buying that PSE ad you could do that on outdoor channel they didn't give a how many viewers you got if you paid for their time correct so there's there'd be people out there paying for air time and nobody's watching the shit they got no sponsors they're going in the hole every episode every season outdoor channel's like check cleared right you got a show literally so literally it's not really like it's not really like the public is generating this opportunity or the industry said oh this guy's a star we want to see more of them it wasn't that it was like if you have money you couldn't have your own show right so i didn't have money and then i didn't have anybody who believed in me enough to be like

well we'll front this thing so that was outdoor channel was kind of a weird thing in that way there's only a few shows that actually i think made money right well and they own several and it was Let's just be honest. It was the good old boys network back then. Yeah. I mean, I mentioned this on several podcasts. Do you,

does anyone remember Jimmy Bigtime? Yeah, I do because he filmed me on Hunts. Bro, that dude was hilarious. Yeah, I loved him. If they,

and I've said this to everybody, if they remade Jimmy Big Time today, it would be the number one show in three months. Yeah, people are more, now with social media, they would get it more. Correct.

We didn't get it back. I mean, hunters didn't get it. They're just like, they're like got offended or some shit. It's like, do you guys get satire? Yeah.

Why is he being, why is eating Doritos in the stand after telling everybody to be quiet? Do you get satire? He's joking. You know, satire is confusing for idiots. I mean,

they just don't get it. Right. It's like Babylon B, people are just like, what? Yeah. Can you believe this? It's like,

that's a little bit of truth, but do you understand how this works? Exactly. So at what point, so do you think it was the fact that you didn't immediately dabble deep into the white tail side of things that made you not get a show? Or because right now, I mean, let's just be honest. Scheduling wise right now, if you want to be on network, you can't have a barren elk and mule deer only show. You can't kill enough in a year to get enough content. Yeah, because like you need 12 shows basically.

Yeah. minimum. Minimum. And so how much you think that played into it that you weren't necessarily dabbling in the whitetail side, which is the moneymaker? Yeah, probably because white tails always dominated the market. It still does. I mean, even, you know, there's a big, I was with, like, a lot of the camel companies when they first started getting into the Western pattern. And it was just a smaller part of the market, but they want to own everything. So they'd be like, oh, we better have a Western pattern. But, but, but, but, But generally it was like if you're not killing big white tail,

those guys love outdoor channel viewers. Love sitting down and watching Big White Tail. Right. That's most the viewers. That's most the hunters. So Western hunting, it did make it tougher. But then you started to get into, Eastman's did a good job of this of selling the dream, right?

The adventure of it. You're not from the West, but you dream of hunting the West. And so now we can help you get tax. at the MRS section, then Hunt Fool came on, and then all these places about getting tags. That was a thing like, okay, do you have a dream of killing a big bull?

We can help. So we got into the dream part of it, which helped me for sure, because that was what I was doing. But yeah, I think it's bottom line, attention is currency. If you have the biggest part of the market, that's a lot of attention. That's, you got that value.

Right. I just didn't have it, I guess. I do think we're missing a part here, which is you also have to find a cameraman that can survive one hunt with Cam, let alone 12. That would fall into the category of if Cam ever asked me to go hunting, the answer would probably be no. Because I'm not good enough. You're 100% right.

And so, and look, I know how mentally tough you are. I actually, we ran into each other at Hoyt, 2016 or 17. 16, I was going to say, yeah. Right after you ran that Death Valley shoot. Yeah. Or that Death Valley run. I don't know how you were walking. You didn't even look like you wanted to be alive in the moment.

Probably didn't. So I know mentally you are extremely tough. How did you process as someone who was used to winning or at least used to competing? winnings we all want to win right not everybody competes and there's a big difference and we can get into the difference between competing and winning so how did you mentally process the i'm not going to have a show yeah that was i i don't know i it put a big chip on my shoulder for sure but like when you talk about competing versus winning yeah we all want to win but there's something about like i've been competing my whole life

That's what people, I think, sort of forget. Because, I mean, I've had to fight for everything. Right. So I've been competing, like, even just athletically since I was five, right? So when you're like, when you grow up competing, you're different. Right. You're just different. It's just, that's just the way it goes.

So to me, life has always been competing. And that was just another one where, okay, you, watch this. I'm going to make sure you know you made the biggest mistake by not giving me this opportunity. And it was hard back then because to get opportunity either like a magazine had to give you a column or a space in the magazine. The TV show had to give you airtime or a sponsor had to pay for the airtime or the outdoor channel had to give you airtime and they would sell the sponsorships. Or yeah, you wrote a book or you had sponsor. like Hoyt or you know you chemical company that believed in you and they would market you. Right. But at some point, it came down to like, how are you proving you're better than everyone

else? So it's always been that. And when I didn't get the TV thing, because I had to rely on other people for that to happen. I'm like, that's why social media for me and the internet has been, that was 2008. I remember this specifically because it caused a huge issue. It caused me leaving Eastman's like this whole thing where I was like finding. finally like, wait, I can be in charge of me. Who sees me? Right. Right. And, you know, these, I'm not saying Eastman's wanted to keep me down or whatever,

but it was just changing the landscape. 100%. Right. And I kind of recognized it. And with Eastman, the thing was my last name was never Eastman. Right. So it was like, I'm not Guy Eastman. I'm not, I was never going to be.

Right. So it was like, I understand. family loyalty for sure. And then I was like sort of the outsider. I'm very appreciative for all that I got. But at 2008, I was just like, holy shit, maybe I don't need anybody anymore. Maybe I can do this myself. And it wasn't like that was, it was like it wasn't a come to Jesus moment and I quit or anything like that. It was great. I mean, I'm, I, nothing but respect for those guys. But it was just 2008 changed everything. And for somebody like me, I could be like, I, I, If I can say what I want, I can post where I want, I can share whatever picture I want,

I don't need anyone. Oh, you don't want to give me a TV show? Guess what? I'll make, I'll put it out myself. And so that's, that's been huge for somebody like me. Well, absolutely. And I mean, I've been watching the whole time and I can tell you this. My personal opinion is they did you a favor.

Yeah, I don't know. The folks that didn't give you a television show? Yeah. It's worked out. Okay. Yeah. They did you a favor. Yeah.

And in turn, they did the industry a favor. Because had they not lit that fire into your ass, not that you needed one. Right. But had that not happened, the platform you've built, the way you've built it in its current form wouldn't be here. Yeah. So whoever it was that told you no, I think they did you a favor. Yeah. I mean, it didn't feel like I always needed to thank anybody at that time.

It was more like, I want to burn everyone down. But now, because if I look at it. If I think about it now, so let's think about this. We did this, our stats at the end of the year stats, but, um, so our videos got 10 million views, which is, uh, 200,000 views a week. 200,000 times 52, isn't that? That'd be 10 million. About.

Yeah. So two, no outdoor channel shows are getting 200,000 views a week. Not even close. So in the podcast gets 80,000 lists downloads. Right. And what I talk about attention is currency, that's valuable. Right. So if you think about this platform now, to your point,

way more than TV could have given me as far as reaching people, influencing people, sharing what I love to share. So yeah, I am very thankful. But from 2008, this has been a while, 18 years, right? And it's paid off a little bit before this, so maybe 15 years. But 15 years is a long time just to grind and feel like you're getting screwed. Right. And that's what I did.

I felt like I was getting screwed. Part of it was like I have a regular job. So maybe I'm not fully invested like I should be. Maybe that's me. So I had my own doubts myself. But when I, if you look back on it now, right now to make it or to be like at the pinnacle in the industry, I've been lucky. and that we have YouTube, we have the podcast,

we have great photos, which are, that's more content, that's more attention, that's more currency. I write books. I got a lot of media out there. So like for my partners, it's very valuable. And I bring that up to say that I've done this,

anybody has this opportunity now. Right. All the things I just mentioned, all those platforms, you can, anybody can do it. anybody can do it if they have the integrity not to pitch snake oil. Yeah, that's also tough. And like myself, you're a kiss guy.

Keep it simple, stupid. Yeah. Like, you don't see me every other day pitching some tiny little stupid gadget, knick, knack, bric-a-brac. We just don't do it. Yeah. And so that's played a huge part in, you know, I think your success, too, is that once you decided to go,

go out and do it on your own, you were like, well, here's how I'm going to do it. And that's just what it is. Yeah. You know, you and I have had the conversation of, you know, when you, you know, and I've been on the sponsor, I've been on both sides, but I've been on the company sponsorship side a lot. And when you start talking about the contracts, you start talking about deliverables. And through your own work, you've gotten to the part where it's like, y'all see what I do. Yeah. I'm, this is what I do. Yeah, I don't, I'm like, those contracts that come in with the deliverables, I'm just like, I mean, we, we had this, I remember, I think it was, maybe this Loper said this at one time, but, uh, they brought up that I don't tag Hoyt, right? This is, but this is years ago. Loper hasn't been there for a while, but I'd love Tim, too. Um, now it's Jeremy Eldridge and, you know, I don't, nothing but positive with Hoyt. Um, but, uh, they said, oh, you never tag Hoyt and I'm like I don't tell you anybody they said and so I just said well who sells the most bows for you you do I'm like what's the problem what are we talking about yeah so it's uh figuring out

that game and just like and just and also just knowing I just knew I just knew I just knew my value right I knew and I was like I don't know aware enough to know what post that that when this landscape changed what worked and what didn't because I still see people who still don't get it. They'll put up a post. Say if it's a anything. They're showing their arrows. They're tagging Trigger grills. So it's like, what the fuck are you doing?

It's completely worthless. Right. What you just did. And it's also devaluing the rest of your shit. So when you do mention them, you've mentioned them in every post. So it doesn't mean anything. Right. And the algorithm is always watching.

Yeah, right. 100%. Yeah, I don't, I'm not, I don't know the algorithm. That seems like is changing a little bit. I just know that the hashtags, the tagging every sponsor you ever had, I just, it never really got to where it felt like people were hoping it would get them to. They actually just changed that on Instagram, I think, from where guys used to tag this many sponsors. Yeah. I think now you can only tag three or five.

Oh, really? Yeah, they changed it. Because it's, I never did it. It's stupid. It's like you look at all these tags and you're just like, I'm not clicking or looking at any of that shit. Yeah. So, like when it comes to equipment, this is something that I, that I think, you know, you are, you know, specifically qualified to discuss as kind of the keep it simple, stupid method. You know, and we talked about speed bows.

And like we said, there's only one company really right now that did. And it's not like you see PSC, you know, marketing that bow. every five minutes. I mean, I talked to a couple other people in the industry about that, about speedbows before I came over here. Companies that back in the day were in that fight. And with all the speedbow marketing, it was never equaled 5% of their sales. Yeah. And so it might get someone in the door, but that's generally not what they're buying. Right. And so for you, like, you don't change a lot, like at all. Right. And so when you start, and this is something I think, is a, you know, look, archers love to tinker.

We all know that. Yeah. I love to tinker. I just don't tinker with unknown variables. Like, I don't just all of a sudden try a different product and a category just because I think I want to try it. Yeah. If something's working, that's just what I do. And so for you, having the unit of measure that you do, you know, hunting wise.

And I know that, you know, like with jelly, by the way, great job on that first buck of his. that was freaking, that was freaking awesome. That was the best. You know, and Joe, Joe Rogan and, you know, any of the other people that you help. And I know that you,

Jelly and Joe are the, are the, you know, flagships, but you work with other people behind the scenes that you don't talk about. Yeah. So I appreciate that.

But when it comes to equipment, I think archers get misled a lot. Not just speedbow wise, but just every knick, knick, bricker brack brack. Yeah. And, It's like marketing has creative license.

And so, you know, when I start thinking about things that are that I want to change or play with, dude, I put them through rigorous testing before I ever hit the field with it. And so, you know, I haven't changed hardly any, you know, what's my most recent thing that I'm even? I guess veins would be really the only thing that I've. What do you change? I put a shit ton of work into the DCAs, the super savers. and the minisabbers. Oh. They're the ones that are shaped funny.

Okay. Period. With it, like, have the thing? Yeah. So it comes up like this and goes boop, boop. Okay.

And so that's for a reason. And so, you know, I've said this on other podcasts. I can get a vein to do any goddamn thing I want. Yeah. Period. Give me a hunting arrow,

certain vein. I can get it to do anything I want. So for me, the only thing that I really look for at this point is, how quiet it is and how well it does in the wind. Yeah. Because I can get any of them to hit an animal. Yeah.

I mean, let's just be honest. Yeah. And so that's kind of really the only thing that I've changed, but I still hunt with a 20-year-old aluminum H.T. hinge. You know, my spothog side is probably 10 years old. Yeah. You know, and I'll get the new bow here and there, but, you know, new equipment. And look, the industry needs people to buy new equipment.

get me wrong. Yeah, yeah. We appreciate it. I was down at the, I was hanging down at the bow rack before I came over here and this guy was in there and he was all, he literally goes, hey, man, I want to thank you guys. You guys got my bow tuned up great. I Robin Hooded an arrow this morning. And everyone's like, oh yeah, and I said, the arrow industry appreciates your business. There's two arrows right there. You got to leave the arrow in the other one. Yeah, at first you do. For us, we're like, God, damn it. Yeah. Well, I don't know because nowadays, like the arrows I shoot, I think are about $50 a piece. Dude.

I'm not, I'm not, you don't see any Robin Hoods around here. Also, I don't shoot at the same spot all the time. But, uh, yeah, it's, uh, to your point though, also, I don't tinker. I'm like, I don't give what's out. I, if I know what works, it takes a while for, like I didn't, I didn't switch to blazers for a long time because I had these, the four or five inch, whatever the, they were, were they, were they, maybe they're boning still. But anyway, they weren't the short.

Right. It took me a while to switch to that. And then I went to the AE, the, you know, those. Back stealth. Yeah, those veins, four veins on that. And again, you can say whatever the fuck you want. But as far as hunting goes, that makes my arrow fly the best, the most perfect. When I f*** everything up.

Right. When I punched the trigger, when maybe my level didn't get to where. because that like the bull in the win-ahaw wasn't going to stop i have no idea what my level is doing i'm i look at it but at that moment i just had to shoot so point is in the heat of the moment moment like split second decision all my equipment performs right so i yeah do i have do you need four veins probably not when you're standing on the line when there's no environmental factors going on right yeah do whatever you want if we're like heat of the moment through you know whatever you're you got a pack on you're tired you're everything else i want to make sure when i punch that trigger like i know i do that arrow

is still flying perfect so that's my only goal with everything that's why it's a heavy arrow that's why it's a tall brace hat that's why it's the four veins that's why it's the most straight arrow in the in in in the world because it's for less than optimal situations it's not we're not designing to be perfect under with everything perfect. Right. We're designing to be as close to perfect with everything fucked up. Correct. Forgiveness.

It's all about forgiveness. Forgiveness. That's it. And all these people get worked up like forgiveness over speed. It's just like, is this still, like I said the other day, is still a thing? We're still talking about this shit? Right. What do you mean?

Yeah. Like every, every hunting bow that is not designated a speed bow are literally all within 10 to 12 feet a second. Yeah. All of them. Mm-hmm. all of them. Right. You know, and it's like, you know, like right now, the big thing is, you know, everyone, you know,

how many carbon bows are there on the market now? Four. Hoyt, PSE, Elite and Botech all have carbon bows. Okay. Some of them are heavy. Yeah. Two of them are heavy. Right.

heavier than aluminum. Oh, really? So what are we doing? Or they're very close. No. Those ones aren't. Well, even like, even in the heyday, it was like, what? the heyday of light bows.

Oh, right, right. It was like three to four, like three for the carbon, four for the aluminum, or was it five for the aluminum? It was right around four point seven to four point nine for aluminum and the carbons were in the high threes. Okay. To me, again, just like speed, that's just marketing. That's just marketing. It's like, because we put all the shit on the bow afterwards. I was just going to say.

I got the back bar. I got the other bar. I got all the shit. Right. Because I want that quiet because I'm hunting and I want it I want it to hold well you have to hold it still I want it to hold still I want I'm going to shoot one time one time I want that one arrow to be perfect And for that bow maybe because I punch the trigger maybe a heavier bow reacts Uh, slower to me punching.

It's a fact. And so that's why I do all that. That's why I've never shot a carbon. I don't give a about how much shit weighs. I'm trying to put that arrow. in the lungs. Dude, I'll tell you one of the things that resonated with me. Like, I like Joe and I listen to his stuff.

One of the things he said that hit home for me the most was when he first started hunting with you. And I don't know where you guys were hunting. But he said that you were like, we need to get up this hill. And you're camp in Haynes. You're just like, beep, beep, beep. Up this hill, no big deal. And Joe's explaining when he got to the top of the hill, he literally was wanted to die.

Yeah. Well, that's when you got might have to shoot. Yeah. Yeah. And if, look, I got a buddy Dave Madden up in Alaska. And okay, depending on who you are, if you want to build a sub five pound total bow to hike 27 miles back into the whatever, whatever, yeah, okay, you can get away with that. But for the rest of humanity, a heavier bow is going to be steadier. And a heavier bow is going to be harder to move.

Yeah. And by move, I mean, when you're doing this. Yeah. Or if you're Joe Rogan and you just tried to follow Cam Haynes up a hill and your heart rate's like 190 and shit's moving all over the place. You got to make a shot. So the light bow is kind of an oxymoron because, yeah, we put stabilizers on there with all the weight. We put sites in rest and quivers and we put all this. Hunting bows are generally six to seven pounds anyway.

Yeah. And so, you know, and this is the thing that I've heard forever. And this is kind of the way I was, I don't say, brought up. But way back in the day, they would say, well, what are you going to sacrifice? You only get to shoot once. Are you going to bring less food and water? Yeah. The answer for me is absolutely not.

My miles per gallon sucks. Right. But no, I'm not bringing less food and water, but I'll bring something less. less if I have to have a certain weight limit on a pack, but hopefully you're only shooting one arrow. Don't compromise on that. Right. That's why we're there.

Right. All this other shit, we're there to kill an animal. Right. So if it's not helping that, I don't give a fuck about it. And it's like everything that's on my bow, every reason I choose what's on my bow or what I use is only for that one thing. Right. And it's like, you know, I, so when I see that, when I see the lightest bow on the market or the fastest bow on the market, to me, it's just like, it's just bells and whistles.

It's just a selling point. It does not, I want the most accurate bow on the market. And that's what can't be measured. Because what do you, if you're going to measure with a hooter shooter, they're all pretty damn accurate because that's a perfect controlled situation. Right. So we're never really truly getting the most accurate unless you're putting it in this. Hunter's hands with all the shit weighing in kind of up your process. Right.

That's how you figure it out. So we can't all do that. I just know these these attributes that I need to give me the most confidence in what I have seen help me deliver a lethal arrow as often as possible. Right. Well, I mean, look, if you go back 20 years in archery, it was a speed race. If you go back 30 years, it was a speed race. Yeah.

30 years ago, companies were challenging. each other to come to the ATA show and shoot through a chronograph. And that went all the way up through the PSCX force and the Matthews Monster and Bo-Tech with their destroyer. Like, there was a speed race in archery. And that's fun. It's fun to shoot an arrow and see how fast it is. Yeah, and that shit was 10, 15 years ago.

And guess why it went by the wayside? Because less than 5% of the market bottom. Because nobody gives a, really. No, they don't. Like, literally they don't. And so that's part of, that whole mentality is people get distracted with things they think they want, but they're not things they need.

Right. Yeah. And that's the thing that I've always respected about you is it's like, yeah, it's like myself. I say, if you told me wearing a pink thong would make me shoot better in a tournament. Where are they? Where in the hell are those 40-inch? Yeah. I'm on it.

And so, and you're the same. It's like, yeah. I don't care what I want. Right. It's what I need. Yeah. help me get to achieve my goal. Yeah.

It's, yeah, I don't know. I think people get, I love that people get worked up, though. I love that we care this much, you know. So all these guys that made the video and the PSC Sicario and even PSE tagged me, love it. They did? Love it. Yeah. It's, they should have.

It's great. Yeah. I mean, I want to, I want to celebrate the shit. I want people. So I've been around long enough. And it's like, I wonder if I, if I say, this. Tell me what you think. But it's like, here's what it always was like back in the day. I shot PSE because at first I liked the red PSC. Remember the stickers everybody had?

Oh yeah. Yeah. Those popped. Those are sick. So I had a PSC hat. Cool logo. Oh, then they made me the bow. But they had the mock six. Those $1,100. How good must this be must be amazing. So they had like pretty good marketing. But then it was like Matthews, anytime I'd shoot a Matthews, it wasn't the high the best performing boa for performance but god that thing pulled good right it was so smooth to pull and like you it's quiet smooth and quiet and you're like well it's not gonna it's not a screamer right but man comfortable to shoot right hoit they had just sit i mean they just look sick those tech risers or where the hell they were that they looked so good like that rise right over there that battle warren whatever such a good looking bow do you see that battle worn hoit's in

there yep but uh even back before that like they just looked like the engineering seemed better than everybody else because of how they looked right and it just looked like it could perform right and then i shot one i'm like then they're bulletproof i've never like i talked about this i went through three limbs on on these bows i've never had a failure with a hoight so i've been shooting them now since 2005, so what is 21 years, never had a failure? How? How does that happen? Well, they run over their shit with trucks.

Yeah. I mean, like. And dry fire at 1,500 times. Dude, it's ridiculous. So it's, it's crazy. So if I talk, if I think about these, these big brands, it's always like the, there's only a couple things that stick out that catch your attention. The Matthews, comfortable to shoot.

The Hoyt got just looked like a performer. And then it's bulletproof. And then the PSA that had that thing for a while. That was kind of cool. Now, if people are talking about PSC Sicario, great. Awesome. I love it. Just not the greatest honeybow.

Yeah, can people kill? Of course. Of course. You can kill with anything. I'm just talking about, we're talking about optimizing. Right. So I know some kid or some guy tagged me, he shot a 300 and he's killed his stuff. I'm like, awesome.

I love it. I couldn't shoot a 300 right now. So you're better than me. So it's like, I don't, I'm not taking the shit personal. Right. Unless you want me to, then I can. But yeah, I just, I just love it all. I love the whole industry.

And I want everybody to kick ass is my point. I just think a lot of it is just playing the marketing game, which is fine. That's how it works. 100%. Well, and I mean, and that's part, part of that is it's like, okay, look, even the guys that made the videos and even the guys that said stuff, then before their video ends, they say, well, we know they. don't tune as easy and we know they don't hold you got to work a little harder to get them to hold and yeah they're a little less forgiving because of the shorter brace height than you know with the high let off the string tension you know but it totally works and it's like yeah bro you literally

just explain cam's exact point right yeah it's i i said it a little abrupt on that version i've said it before but i'd said because i mentioned cicario that i mentioned you know just you won't hit shit that's not true right you can hit stuff i'm not so don't get too worked up but yeah it was well it's the same thing as if i would have said to you cam and i could imagine the look on your face right now if i said yeah i got a 32 inch draw length i shoot 70 pounds i have one arrow build that's 350 and one arrow build that's a thousand yeah you would be like mm-hmm what what what what are you doing yeah like why mm-hmm oh well i want one that shoots super fast and one that doesn't.

No, there's a window. Yeah. And most everybody that we know operates within that window. Yeah. You know, and so if we were to get paper and write down my build and your build and Joe's build and what you did for Jelly and Wayne Indicots and Levi-Morgans and if we were to write down all of the normal folk that we know, all of those builds would fall under a window. Yeah.

90% of the people that just walk into an archery shop and buy a hunting rig don't buy in that window. Right. They have sub 400 grain arrows. And so all of these things that come into play. So your comment was appropriate. It's just it's the internet. So yeah. You know, it is what it is.

And so I guess, you know, for me, I'm all about accuracy. Mm-hmm. And I don't hunt near as much as you do. and so for me, you know, I do shoot tournaments, but I do hunt as well. And so for me, I don't care what it is. All I care about is accuracy. Yeah. And that's it. Yeah. And so, I mean, you know, I don't have, you know, I don't need an archery shop necessarily per se down in Klamath Falls where I'm at. You know, it's kind of, kind of a different thing. But, you know, the community aspect of what archery does, and this is something that I wanted to ask you about. I, you know, I talked to, talked to

pool from the ATA a couple weeks ago. And it was the dreaded crossbow situation. Oh, fuck. Right. And so, you know, my thing on the crossbow deal is, well, look, they're not going away. Yeah. They're half the market. But the recreational side, and Jeff did bring up a good point. So I wanted to get your opinion on this. And so my thing is FET and all that other bullshit aside, but is that the recreational culture side of crossbow archery is not where it is for upright archery. Like you and I could be like, hey, let's meet at the Cascadian out there. I'm over in town. Let's go shoot a bunch of arrows.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We go out there and shoot a couple hundred arrows, have a good time, shoot for dollars, blah, blah, blah. Crossbow people don't do that because their bows can't. Well, and they don't need to to be accurate. Right, but that's the recreational culture part of it. We enjoy it.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. There's not a community. There's not like, well, like on my page where I, I just, my bio is just a bow hunter. Right. Nobody's saying crossbow hunter. Nobody's like proud of that. Like it's like it's, you do it so you can hunt during bow season and it's sort of like, whatever.

It's not that cool. It's allowed. Right. But bow hunting, bow hunters are a community. Right. And passion. And they care. And it matters.

And you practice and you, you're obsessed about this shit crossbow people they don't have to be obsessed about it they can they can just go out i've never even shot one so what i don't know what the f f i'm talking about but i've talked to people who say hey here's the accurate they are all the way out to here you just do this you hold it on whatever it's just not the same no at all you don't have to live and die like i do for archery to be accurate with the crossbow correct this shit doesn't matter that much So if it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. Right.

Well, so Jeff Poole brought up a point that I wanted to get your opinion on. And he said, because look, you and I both know that archery, as we know it, still relatively young. The ATA's young, hunting televisions now getting ready to transition to something totally different. And so, but arch, we're still developing. Yeah. And so compound bows, however, are not. They are, I don't want to use the word plateaued, but yeah, they've plateaued.

And so, you get incremental change is there. Yeah. Well, Jeff Poole brought up a good point, and he said, and I don't know if I wholly agree with this, but I want to get your opinion, is Jeff Poole said, he's the president of the ATA, by the way, that perhaps the maturation or the growth of crossbows is in its infancy compared to upright bows. And it got me thinking. You remember the magnesium bows back in the 90s where you could get about 2,500 shots and then they broke right at the handle. And then we went through, you know, all kinds of growth sectors of archery with dependability. Well, magnesium was Oregon bows,

right? Well, PSC had them. Oregon bows had them. Like, yeah. I broke one right in half at the handle. That's what I'm saying. And they literally had a shot clock. Like, how many shots have you made? it's about to break. Yeah. And so I can't wholly disagree with him. I don't know as if that will fix that recreational culture aspect of a crossbow guy going and shooting 200 arrows for practice because he likes it. I don't.

I think that's completely different. Yeah. But right now, you can't shoot 100 in a day. The thing won't last. Oh, really? No, no. I don't think, I just don't think people care enough to shoot that much. I don't, I don't either.

So I don't think that the bow changing or more. more durability is going to make people care more. Right. And that's what I've been kind of pondering. Yeah. I don't, I don't think so. I mean,

I don't think that's the reason why it hasn't exploded or hasn't, or you say it's 50%, but I don't, yeah, I don't know. Maybe I don't have a good game. I mean, we don't even,

I don't know anybody who even shoots one. I don't either. So. But it's not necessarily a left coast thing. Or that admits shooting one. Well, I mean, look here. Because you can just say,

you're gay and you don't have to shoot a crossback. Right. And I mean for the record. And I'll, I'll, I'll have settle down. Yeah. Calm. Settle down. Calm your joke. Com your shit talkers, but it's all love, baby. You know, and. Oh, that's pretty good. But, you know, it's just a matter of, you know, what are we going to do collectively? Yeah. And it's just my opinion. And I'll say this in front of God and everybody. I don't think crossbow should be allowed during regular archery. No, hell no. Just my opinion. Just my opinion. Yeah. I'm not saying that crossbows need to go away. I'm saying that they should probably be with like muzzle loaders. Yeah, exactly. I mean, they got the same range as a muzzle loader. That's just, well, I've shot shit at 100, so I should probably shut my suck hole. Well, no,

but I heard crossbows out to 200 are pretty damn accurate. It can be. Then you're like, well, how much is that bolt or whatever the fuck it is way. So how much energy is it going to bounce off at 200? Where, you know, muzzle loaders, they are, there's people shooting 300 with a muzzleloader. So I don't even, shit's changing. But yeah, we can shoot 100 with our compound bow. And you would think that our compound bow at 100 probably is,

at least as lethal, maybe more than a crossbow just because of kinetic energy. But I'm also not factoring in. I think crossbows are like, what, 400, 500 feet a second? Yes. So maybe not. So maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Well, plus, I mean, look, there's also, we could nerd out on a bunch of trajectory ballistic bullshit, but a longer projectile is more stable than a shorter projectile. So she said.

Period. Right. It's all about penetration cam. And so, but yeah. I mean, and so, you know, the crossbow thing to me seems, you know, relatively black and white. The problem is right now. just don't think coffee yeah i just don't think that that we collectively right now have agreed on a direction and you know and this is not to you know further demean that community but i i don't

i don't think that they're going to willingly go to the muzzle loter season no i just don't but that's that's all right we yeah we can make i don't know if we can make that happen but just with that's just regulations and that's just getting the right person's ear basically to say why it's different why it makes sense for this or that but that's a logical way to do it so i would think generally logic wins out but who knows right no absolutely who knows it's one of those things i wish that i mean to your point on jeff pool on the a ta or wait jeff pool no relation oh okay yeah got then i was like am i screwing up his name because it's your name, but it's not, you're not married to him. No. No. No. I'd love for the ATA to kick

ass again. That was fun. Well, you know what's happening next week or this week. ATA, right? Yeah. And so the I won't be there. Right. Well, I didn't have to go, but I want to go because of the changes they're making. So the first two days are still business to business. Yeah. And then the other two days, consumers can actually buy a ticket and come walk around the ATA. And then, of course, the Rushmore Rumble Archery Tournaments there. So look, I'm balls deep in this. So I want to be there to see the transition from the business to business to the consumer. And then how the archery event kind of commingles with all of that.

Yeah, it's interesting. I'll just be honest. If 1,000 consumers buy tickets to come walk around the ATA, that shit's a rap yeah wrap yeah wrap that's an absolute rap without the celebrities there how many people are going to pay to go do that what's your guess they need to have at least 10,000 and i i don't know as if so 5,000 two days 5,000 a day uh 10,000 a day oh do you know how many people go to the harrisburg show a lot Yeah, a million people.

It's a mile long. Oh. And so it's 11 days. The Harrisburg show in Pennsylvania is 11 days. You go to the Iowa. Yeah. You go to the Iowa Deer Classic and you go to a lot of these other shows. Bro, it's hundreds of thousands of people.

Yeah, but the celebrities are there, right? A lot of them. Yeah. I think a lot of people go to see the Lee and Tiffany and the what else. Not like they used to. Yeah. But yes. To those other shows.

Not to ATA. I'm talking about like. Yeah. Well, and they're not all at those, but yes, and a lot of those, they go and run their own booth. Yeah. And they sell swag. It would be like you. It would be like you coming with a keep hammering booth.

Yeah. And you're there doing the grip and grins with people and, you know, you got your people slanging swag. Yeah. That's basically how those work. But they're massive. Yeah. So if the ATA can transition and grab some of that vibe. Yeah.

Because I just don't know if 10,000 people a day, which if the Iowa Deer Classic, had 10,000 people a day come through there, they'd shut down. Yeah, it'd be dead. They'd be like, this didn't work. Yeah, I guess I don't know how many, I know, I know the Harrisburg show gets millions, I think, in that. One million, yeah, over 11 days. Right.

So that's awesome. Yeah, and, you know, I went to the, I love that. Yeah, I went to the show in Salt Lake City last year. Yeah. It was packed. Yeah, Western Hun Expo. Yeah, it was packed. No, it's definitely worked.

It's definitely worked in those situations. Hopefully ATA can capitalize on that same approach. Yeah, well, and I think what they need to do, and this is what I told Jeff off air, is you need to call Cam Haynes. You know, like, first of all, full disclosure. Hoyt's not there. Matthews is not there. There's heavy hitters are not there anymore. Right.

And this is what I told Jeff. I actually quoted your book. Oh, okay. I literally said, to quote my boy, Cam Haynes book, the ATA needs to be undeniable. Yeah, for sure. you shouldn't you know the ATA needs to get to the point where we're not asking you to come yeah you're telling us you have to come right yeah and so and that's what I told him as I said you need to get back to that point but you know assuming that happens but you need to get with like if I wanted

cam haines to come do an event of course I just text you and ask but that's on the point it's like anything like I used to always say if you want to get Greg Poole to do something convince his wife yeah Yeah. And then he's going to do it. Right. But if I wanted Cam Haynes to come do an event, I'd call Jeremy. I'd call Easton. Yeah.

I'd call Sitka and be like, hey guys, here's what we're doing. Be cool if Cam was there. Because the ATA calling you, you're going to be like, well, what are we talking about, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. If Sitka, Easton, and Hoyt are like, hey, Cam, we want you to be at this event, you're going to be like, oh. Yeah. I guess that's what we're doing. Yeah, no, it's a, there's a way, there's a way to do it for sure.

It's just weird. It's not weird, but yeah, the business model is changing. That is, what kind of coffee is that? I know it's black rifle. That's not a shameless plug. Yeah, black rifle. What flavor? I think it's an AK-47.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I like my boy, it's good. Yeah, I love it. Good. I like my boy, Kyle Lambs, berserker blend too. I don't know if I've had that one.

Speaking of. Is it, is it black rifle? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Kyle made a funny commercial with Matt in them years ago. You know, it's the Resurker blend. It's pretty good. It's, it's stout. Maybe I have had it off to try. Speaking of what? What's the holdup? On mine? I saw the, I saw the Evan post with the, with the blackboard with all the names. I know. Yeah, that was fun. Well, shit takes time. It's a, I never get too excited. I've heard a lot of, I'm not going to say, I'm not, I'm not, I don't think that's an empty promise at all. But. Right. I've had a lot of empty promises over the years. So until it actually happens, I don't. I mean, it's going to happen. And, you know, me and Evan have a lot of shit going.

And, you know, it's his, what he has to go through to run that company is like, it's a lot of stress. Oh, dude. And it's a lot of responsibility. So I don't try to add to that. I think it'll happen. But I don't, I never get. I used to take all this shit personal. Right.

Like when stuff, somebody, I remember one time. when my sponsor said, hey, we're going to go to Africa. We're going to pay for you. You're going to be able to do all this. It's going to be amazing. I'd never been to Africa at this time. I was like, oh, my God. That's it.

So I was like obsessed. Like, I'm going to Africa. They said, we're going to Africa. They said they never happened. So that, once that happens like maybe a hundred times after a while, you're like, you know what? Whatever. Let's just see what happens.

Right. Now, my funny Evan Hafer story is we're at TACC, And if you don't know who Evan Hafer is, go over in the corner and practice falling down. Cam will be there in a minute. Yeah. He's walking around. I'm sitting there talking. I look down in his shorts and he's wearing cutoffs, like not straight.

Like they're man cutoffs. Yeah. When we cut the sleeves off our shirt, they're like not quite. Perfect. You know, and I go, I didn't realize Sitka made shorts. And he goes, well, they kind of do. Yeah. But they're kind of not what I like.

So I just take Sitka pants and I just cut them off where I want. Yeah. Literally the H&IC of Black Rifle is trolling around in Sitka pants cut off into shorts. With scissors. Yeah. I was dying. No, he's unique. I love he's like everybody's got their own personality.

But some people just try to like fit in or whatever. He's just like, no, this is who I am. I just like, I just like Evan. Evan's just real. Oh, yeah. Super good dude. Yeah, and he's been Black Rifle. What a success story.

I love it. Super pumped with our partnership. And yeah, it's going to happen. It just hasn't happened yet. Okay. It's not one of those ones where I just take that approach with everything now. I mean, Holyo was supposed to, we have a new bow coming out. It was supposed to be out.

So I did kind of get kind of pissy about that, I will say. But it's going to happen here in the next week or two. So that's fun. Well, good. Yeah. Good, good. Where's the prototype? yeah exactly oh it's in the mail damn i walked right into that i i love hoit it's uh but i just love

the industry i mean so tell me i'm as as tied in as you are with all this i want to hear i love talking about it for me i don't really give a i'm where i'm at whatever people love me hate me doesn't matter i want to see these young guys kicking ass who do you who do you who do you who do you have your eye you mentioned a couple james uh that tie jordan i think which i have seen him his stuff anybody else kicking ass out there in the industry um you know as far as you know i guess it's just a matter unit of measure like kicking ass in what way like when i look at things i don't necessarily you know like for me it's like i say to a lot of people you and i don't count our opinions on a lot of of things don't count because our perspectives aren't the people we're trying to reach.

Right. Just not. Yeah. And so when I see some of these up-and-coming folks, you know, I don't necessarily immediately look like how big animals have they killed? Yeah. And so like as far as someone that's, and this is going to seem weird, but like he's not up and coming.

He's a OG is Greg Glessinger from Huntworks. Yeah. He was one of the juries, heavy hitters forever, went out on his own. he's one of the most stable he could do you kid like a one ninety seven this year that it broke off a bunch of inches last year his target buck was like 240 and it died of e hd oh my god right and so he's an absolute gangster but he's just the last several years his stuff's been blowing up doing it on his own is he filming oh yeah absolutely his youtube and all that his show's called this show's called hunt works okay i like his stuff because he under he came from like you he came from like you he came

from the I don't want to say the previous generation, but he came from the generation where it was pre-social media. Yeah. He's now transitioning into the social media side. His content is solid, great, great animals, and just a solid person. So when I look at people that are up and coming, I don't necessarily look at how old they are, how new they are. I look at momentum. Gotcha. Okay. And so like right now, you know, and look, a certain company called all their people out and told them they're exiting hunting television, the television side. Who did? So anyway, the, so some of their heavy hitters have really started focusing on YouTube. So Lee and Tiffany Likoski's YouTube has really started.

Yeah. Has really. Yeah. They've put in some. Yeah. connect those dots. Yeah, I understand. And rightfully so. I mean, hunting television had its A day, but if you're reading the room, you're not going to continue to invest in a dying platform. That's what we've had a hard time as an industry of switching gears. I mean, ATA, it might be an

example of that. But when you look at like the marketing, that's where I think archery and marketing suck because it was so easy just hunting in general, not just archery, so easy to just say, write a check to whatever TV show or outdoor channel, here's our marketing. Oh, Peterson's, Peterson's hunting. Yeah, we want a full page, this, that. Yeah, Peterson's Bowhunting. Yeah, we want a full page. So here's our money.

That's our marketing plan. That was it. That doesn't take any skill. You don't have to be good at marketing. You just wrote a check and made a commercial, same commercials that we've done. done forever. Same print ad we've done forever, probably the same words almost, just a different bow, maybe a different face, maybe not a different face. But it's like, can we get any better? Bro, you just made, you just made me remember something. Oh, my God. So, and it had, I didn't even

remember this when you were talking about the magazine where you were like cams on every page. Yeah. I didn't even remember it then, but what you just said reminded me of something. So I don't watch a lot, I watch your content because it's not because I like you. I mean, that helps. Yeah. But dude, if your content was shitty. Yeah, it's like a car wreck. You know for a fact.

You got to look and see what happened. You know for a fact if you put out a shitty piece of material and your phone dings and you're like Greg Poole. You're like, yeah, no, fuck that up. Yeah. Damn it. He's going to tell me. And I totally would. Yeah.

So I watch your stuff because I enjoy it. Right. QC. Yeah. Right. So I'm watching Leave. Morgan's show. Yeah.

Because I, I enjoy Levi's personality. Love Levi. He's got a good person. You know, he's not the same. He's not a Michael Waddell. He's not,

you know. No, he's his own. He's not a Tom Miranda. So his personality, I enjoy his personality. And so I was watching his show. And this is something right to the point you just said. Okay.

What is archery and hunting doing? Yeah. And no one's really thought about it. So I watch his show. Levi Levi Levi it's his show perfect yeah goes to commercial first product commercial Levi Levi Levi Levi yeah second commercial Levi Levi Levi Levi different product yeah every commercial was Levi right this is just standard yeah I was yeah I was hanging out with Levi when he would have to make all these commercials for people yeah

And it hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm sitting there on the couch and I'm like, wait a second. So I text Levi. I said, hey. And he confirmed. He's like, it's what they want. Yeah.

So it's not like he's doing it on purpose. But I brought up to him. I said, okay, well, how would it work if you were watching friends? And Matt LeBlunk. Yeah.

Was in every commercial in between. breaks on friends. Yeah. I go, him being in every single commercial because of the amount of content now, I don't think it really applies back in the day with a magazine because that was all there was. Yeah.

I'm like, but it minimizes his on-screen effect. Yeah. On the television show when he's in every goddamn commercial. Yeah, there's character burnout. Correct. Yeah. That's why real Ford tied. Viagra, whatever you want to pick. That's why when they air their commercials,

they make a commercial with actors. Yeah. And that's what television shows air. Yeah. And Levi was like, God damn. Totally right. But that's just what these folks have been trained

and conditioned to do. Yeah. It's easy. Correct. It's easy. You don't have to be that creative. Which when I think about, and maybe I'm just, beating a dead horse.

But could I, could I see a commercial where somebody's up, like all their form and falling down and still shoot an accurate arrow? To me, that'd be like, that seems like a good bow. Right. But I don't know,

I don't really know what I want because I've also bitched that, hey, why am I not on the cover of this catalog? Right. Well, you, you are at the level where that's a valid question. For me,

I watch these commercials where they film, from behind someone and he shoots and his arrow. Yeah. Fish tails. And I'm over there like, oh, yeah. Holy Jesus. Well, did nobody. And I'm that guy.

Every one of my friends that are in the industry, if their company puts out something and there's something wrong with it. Yeah. I'm the guy that's like screenshot. Hey, bro, what the F? But for me, if you're advertising to archers and you're over the shoulder and someone shooting a commercial. A commercial.

Yeah. It's not an animal. You can redo it. Yeah. And your arrow flight is just the worst thing in the world. Yeah. What? You don't get it.

Yeah. Well, that used to be where, you know, outdoor channel would try to put up an ad for a bow hunt, something bow hunting. This, you know, like the anchors, the strings back here. Peeps down here. Or even like, I always bring this up. Randy White was in an Under Armour ad. you know at the first shot show that i went to or one of the first i went to but the first i ever saw under armor there and he's up there with a bow and has no rest on it so you know he's got the arrow

he's got this finger here there's no rest on the bow because they just bought the bow so you always get these like there is no and then i could i could bitch because i have bitch but like this picture of me at the at the bow rack i'm not a full draw it's like i'm not quite all the way anchored that's a picture on the wall. So it's like, what? Why is a picture of me not an anchor? Right. 20 feet tall and whatever, 40 feet long.

But sometimes shit flips or slips to the cracks. But what is it commercial like that or something? Come on. We should get better. Well, and that's the, and that was why I asked Levi, because I trust his opinion. And he's been doing this.

And he's at a very high level. And it's not his decision. decision. The companies don't have the creativity to create their commercials and give it to Levi to air. Instead, they put the burden on him to make a commercial. Right. And Levi's like, I'm an archer and a hunter, bro. Yeah. Like, okay. But it's just going to be me shooting a bow. Yeah, doing or me using your climbing thing or me using your ground blind or whatever, whatever. So, you know, it's not a diss on Levi whatsoever. He's one of the best out there. I love the guy. But it was just an example of Levi is having to manifest what the industry makes him do. Yeah.

And to answer your question, why can't the industry do better? Yeah. Well, there's a couple answers to that if you want them. Yeah, let's hear it. Number one is generally speaking, a lot of the people in these marketing departments either got there because they knocked up the owner's daughter. Mm-hmm. I won't say that one. the inverse.

Yeah. They've Knock up their son? Yeah. Exactly. They've been there long enough to where if I'm the owner and it's,

you know, someone leaves and I'm like, you've been here a long time. Yeah. You're in charge of marketing. And you're like, what? I'm a machinist.

What do you mean? I'm a marketing guy now. I'm not a marketing guy. What are you talking about? Right. Or they put a sales guy in charge of marketing. Or a marketing guy

in charge of sales. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Or the dreaded three letters of death, not ice, a private equity firm. Oh, God. Yeah. They can fuck everything up. Yeah, a private equity firm buys it. And then they fire anybody that knows anything about anything.

Yeah. Appropriate. And they put someone in charge of everything that knows nothing. But they know how to count beans. Bean counters. Exactly right. Yeah. They know money.

That's exactly right. Yeah. Well, they know how to lose money. Yeah. And they know how to destroy brands. They don't have a product. Right. And make cheaper shit so they can make more margin, but that's about it.

Bingo. Yeah. And so when we ask the question of why the industry is still where it is, and I say this all the time and sometimes people get offended, but I've said it enough times. I'll say it. I don't give a shit. The biggest problem in archery is archers. Yeah.

How so? Because we hold ourselves back. Oh, okay. Like the rats and the, I mean, just shit. on each other all the time. It's like if one mouse starts to climb out of the bucket, the other ones pull it down. That's the old crab in the bucket. Yes.

You know, on the target archery side for years and years and years. Like, I'm sorry if Cam Haynes or Greg Poole are in Vegas and we shoot our final arrow to win and we just won $125,000

for shooting our bow for a weekend, I'm losing my shit yeah i'm ricky bobby in my underwear running around from the invisible flames yeah ain't nobody stopping me bro but literally archers get offended if an archer screams and yells and they're like oh that's not professional right not not professional what have you seen tiger woods when he makes a bad shot yeah what a every other sport it's called passion baby exactly yeah let's see it but on the target side we have prevented that right because archers are like oh that's not that's not professional.

Well, yeah, neither's archery, motherf- what are we talking about? It's still a hobby. Yeah. And so on the hunting side, you know as well as I, and it's a personality thing. Like if you go kill another one of these toads and you're not going to act out of character, you're going to act like Cam Hainesax. Michael Waddell, he's going to be out there karate chopping the air and doing the kung fu panda. Smoke that joker. And that's his personality.

Yeah. Yeah. It's real. Yeah. And some people get irritated with that too. Yeah, for sure. You know, it's like when someone kills a 16 foot alligator or a giant, whatever, and they, I'm not talking about dry hump and a corpse, people, but like when they lay down next to it to show how big they each are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, there's nothing wrong with that. Now, people do some stupid shit. I'm not making excuses for people that do dumb shit.

but laying down next to an animal to show how big it is. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, I think like on that note, what, and I'm not the police, the internet police, so whatever. But you are wearing a beast broadhead thing. So I will talk about Josh Beaumar. But I think he does an awesome job on telling stories. I wish he wouldn't do the shock value shit because I think it hurts some of the other stuff.

You know, the head shot on the baboon or whatever the f- Oh, the chest. Chest, yeah. At 90. Yeah. It's just like, I get it. I've had shit that would be fun to show just to get reactions. Right.

But it's not good for us. Yeah, I think, you know, and I mean, look, the most recent one was Sarah shot the deer from behind. Yeah. It worked. It wasn't a Texas harsh shot. It didn't go in. It seemed like, hey, I'm a fan of everybody. It seemed like a shitty shot trying to spin it to make it sound good.

Yeah. Was that what it was? I don't know if it was a shitty shot or not. I mean, she is a good shot. I'll give her credit. She is a very, very good archie. I've made shitty shots. I'm not saying, I'm not saying she's not a great shot.

She can be a great shot. You can still have a f*** up shot. Right. And still be a good shooter. Yes. You know what I mean? We've all done it. So it seemed to me like,

That's not exactly where she wanted the thing to hit. So I wouldn't pretend like it was, but I would say, but look what the Brutthead did. Yes. You know what I mean? That was the intent. I don't know if it necessarily came across that way. I can't even really. I don't even watch it really.

I think I saw the little clip, but I don't know what the story was. What was the story? Well, it was a deer that they were, that she had been chasing. Oh, yeah, yeah. I knew that. And it was and it didn't present, you know, so she was at full draw and it was time going by. and it was either shit or get off the pot. Okay.

And so, and look, a Texas, I've never, I've never executed a Texas heart shot. Me neither. For those of you that don't know what that is, it's up the poop shoot. Yeah. It's basically a hole through the pelvis maybe about, maybe about like this. Right. And it's not much room for error because you think lungs are about like this. So now we're like doing this.

and the problem is if you don't get it up there, you could catch her femoral, which maybe she did. I can't, I don't know, like I said, I don't know what the story was with it, but not a lot of room for error on that one. Right. And so for her, what happened was it hit a little bit low right of that. Yeah.

Didn't hit any bones or femurals. It went through everything and went straight through the heart and lodged in the front shoulder. So it, and the Texas heart shot for anyone that's, it is lethal as lethal can be. But that wasn't a Texas. that was like off on the side.

No, it was from, it was, it was a heart, yeah. But it wasn't through the pelvis. No, it went in between them. It went through the right rear ham. Yeah. Through everything, through the heart into the left front shoulder. But like right rear ham and rib cage, like here? Like, no, no, no.

Like, oh. This far low right of the butthole. Well, that's not a Texas heart shot then. No. And I haven't talked with her about it. Oh, okay. So, but that's just my thing is it seemed like the Texas heart shot was the goal. And it was a little bit low right.

It didn't hit the leg bone. It went through the right ham and up through everything lodged in the front shoulder. Oh, dead of shit. Absolutely lethal. Dead of shit. Yeah. Died in 40 yards. Yeah.

What you're talking about is optics. Yeah. I mean, I don't think showing that shots, that's bow hunting. It is bow hunting. That's bow. I'm not, I'm not criticizing that because if I up and come out of my anchor on the shot, that's where my arrow goes too. Right. So I know.

I'm not, hey, I'm not perfect. Right. So I'm not criticizing bow hunting. Oh yeah. That shit happens. Right. She got the buck is great or whatever. I just didn't know if the, if it was sold as like a Texas heart shot.

No. Okay. No. That's just my impression of it. Gotcha. Based on the angle. Like the hardest one I've ever angled was an uphill mule deer that was not quite walking away from me totally.

And it went just missed the left ham. Mm-hmm. Up through everything and then came out the right shoulder. That'll work. That'll work. Yeah. Would I have tried a Texas heart shot on that deer if it was appropriate, probably. But so to your point, you know, I think the thing that Josh has both for him against him is one, they're both really good shots.

Yeah. Number two is at his, at this stage of his life and this stage of his hunting career, they don't accept any sponsorships. Mm-hmm. And go fuck yourself. Yeah. Like, you know, he's not going to post something that is that, you know, but the rear end shot like that. A lot of people didn't like it. A lot of people did.

And so he's at a stage. They are, they are at a stage now where it's like, hey, man, this is the, this is the realism of it. He caught a lot of heat for the, you know, for the, for the, for the, the, uh, the potential poachers on his fence line. Oh. Like, I never see that. People. He just, you know, it was rifle. And he's driving his property saying, I think someone poached a deer on my fence line.

Oh, okay. And I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with that? Mm-hmm. Like, so I think that that there's, that there's a bunch of, you know, some of it rightfully so, some of it not. And eventually it'll go away. Yeah. But, you know, look, I've hunted with Josh.

Yeah. And I can tell you, I've not ever seen the dude do anything that was even close to, like, he crosses his eyes and dots his teeth. but he's also a meathead like the rest of us. Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Nobody's perfect. No, no, no. I mean, I know what you're saying, like, he's at a point where it doesn't matter what

the public thinks, right? He's, they got money, they got whatever. I just, like, for what's in hunting's best interest. Correct. Because social media gets everywhere. It's not like it's just hunters watching an outdoor channel. That shit goes everywhere. So all I'm saying is like, I wish he would think more about how this is perceived,

not by people. And he can say, no, I don't care what you think. But there's people who are going to judge hunting and who potentially could vote for or against hunting. And some people, it doesn't matter what you do, they're going to vote against hunting. But I don't want to put material out there that's going to help them. You're talking about the 80-10-10. What's that? So 10% of Americans are like us, hardcore hunting.

Right. 10% of Americans are hardcore anti-hunting. And 80% don't give a shit either way. Yeah. Until they're presented with someone that something that makes them care one way or another. Yeah. Yeah. And so, Wayne is probably one of the best guys.

You, by the way, thank you for your conservation efforts. Oh, yeah. You have, well, it's not a of course thing. Wow. This is what I love. You use your platform. You use everything you've built for. And I know what it does to your algorithm.

When you when you politics everything out. Thank you. Trust me. I'm on my third Instagram account since 2021. But anyway, sometime in January. But whatever. Around the sixth. Yeah, around there.

Between the fifth and the south. Yeah. So, but I thank you for that because people don't understand that it does cost you numbers to share some of the stuff you do. Yeah. But that you and I, we don't make the decisions.

Right. No. Luckily, the 10% don't make all the decisions. No, it's at 80. It's the 80%. Yeah. And if you can get them to either do one of two things, not care and shut up,

or just ignore it all, then it's a fair fight. Yeah. But what PETA does, and to your point, the optics of what's presented, you make people make a decision on it. Correct. Like when we see neighborhoods

and you see a dough eating flowers with a crossbow bowl through her face. Yeah, you people are, you made somebody make a decision on hunting. Guess what that 80% did. Yeah. No like. Anti-hunting. Dislike. Yeah, for sure.

And I just think like, and it goes back, you know, the whole spearing the bear thing, you know, it did give them a huge bump in, just awareness and exposure. It was everywhere. CNN. So I get it. It's like, if, if that. If that's a metric you or after views, that's how you do it. Right.

For hunting, I just, I think we should look with different optics, especially big names like him. Like I said, I have stuff. So I have stuff that I chose not to because I thought it would hurt hunting. Sure. That's it. That's all I'm saying. Yeah.

I'm not, he's a great shot, great hunter, spent time with him. Like the big personality, love it all, love it all. Just that's, if I had. of criticism and we are talking industry, we are talking marketing, we are talking influence. That one, I'm not crazy about. That's it. Yeah. And I mean, look, everybody is entitled to that opinion.

And it's, I'm not going to say it's valid or invalid because I don't say that about people's opinions. Now, if someone states something of fact, I can have an argument for that. Right. And I mean, look. Yeah, because I'm not saying, oh, he's killing hunting. Right. No.

If I said that, then you'd say like, no, I don't think so. But I'm not saying that. All right. I'm just saying it influences people one way or another. It does. Well, and especially when you have a platform that big. And his YouTube is, their YouTube is huge. Yeah.

And so, I totally get what you're saying. And from the optics side, you know, I think that there's a balance there. Like, number one, if you're using the Jimmy big time as an example, we know that's satire. A lot of people didn't. Right. So they're literally thinking that they're that bit bad a shot when they shoot 20 feet over an animal. And you're like, they missed by 20 feet. Yeah.

That was unethical. That was on purpose. Yeah. So they didn't even want to come close to. They weren't in on the joke. Right. And so there is that side of it from the content side. The other side of it is you're not wrong in the how do you balance the presentation for content.

versus the optics for the 80-10-10 factor. And now, yes, I do work for Josh. I do work for Beast. How do you balance that side with owning a business? Well, it's Josh's business to run. And right now, we can't make Beast Broadheads fast enough. Yeah. Like, we were so far behind this year, it was, we took it in the face.

We took it in the ass worse than that deal. deer did. How about that? Like, and it was I hurt. Yeah. It, it, it, it, it, it was on us. We just didn't foresee. Like, the hundred grain titanium was, bro, like, we had a meeting and we were like, yeah, 10,000 packs, not broadheads, 10,000 packs should get us through this first little, yeah, that shit sold in four weeks. Whoa. Like literally two weeks in, I'm sending an email. We're,

and David Houser's reordering, because The springs come from the UK and the blades come from Germany and the same factory that makes victories components, makes our feral. And the, you know, so we got shit coming in from the best suppliers all over the world to Utah where it's assembled and tested. Yeah. We couldn't keep up. And so that's, I mean, as far as business, they kick ass. You cannot criticize what the Beaumars have done business wise. It's like nothing.

I mean, I just praise there. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Dialed in on business. It's like, so I have, I love it. And all I've heard about beast broadheads has been positive. People are fired up. So that vision has came to fruition and is kicking ass. Love it.

I love it. I love success stories like that. So this isn't like a personal thing. No, no. Not at all. Just being objective as well. Well, and we're having the kind of conversation where stuff like that is relevant. And so it's absolutely okay to talk about anybody that doesn't think the

conversation right now is something you can't talk about, you're not right. This is the kind of conversation. We need to have more. I don't even see Josh hide from this kind of conversation either. And so he's not going to give a shit that I have it either. Yeah. And so, you know, from that side, and at this, especially at this point, whether Josh does or doesn't do that kind of stuff, folks are still going to.

hold things against him. Oh, yeah. No, I understand that too. Yeah. And I thought you were going to say, I thought you were going to go the other way. Like he's going to be just as popular. And I was going to say, right. So he doesn't need to put that out.

But it's, he is going to get criticized either way. So maybe you should just put out whatever he wants. Well, and I think that's kind of his mentality at this point. I mean, I get because of my involvement, not just with the company,

but with the, I get calls from half, I get calls from the industry people. I get calls from the, dealers. I get calls from lots of consumers. And some of them are like, what the fuck is he thinking? And then I have a conversation and they're like, oh, well, yeah, okay, that makes some sense. It doesn't always make sense. Right. But understanding the, you know, and I don't agree that any publicity is good publicity. I don't necessarily agree with that. No, I don't either.

And I mean, it may prove out in content numbers and shit, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Yeah. I believe. And the reason I don't believe it is is this, you know, like doing Bo Junkie Media and stuff, I was reporting on archery events and professional archers. If you think professional archers just aren't human beings and they don't have the same happening that pro basketball players and baseball players and basketball players and hockey players do, you're out of your mind.

They do all the same stuff. Yeah. The problem is, in our sport and our industry, we just can't sustain that kind of hit. Yeah. Hunting is, so here's the difference. Hunting is, it's about honor and respect. Right. I mean, to be a, we all want to be honorable hunters.

We want to respect the land and the animals. You want to come up, we're supposed to be, set the example. We're supposed to be leaders that are in a community. So when you talk about honor and respect, then your behavior, if it doesn't reflect that, then it's like, wait a second, this is flies in the face of what hunting is, right? So then hunters push back. Right. So that's why we're sort of like it's, I don't know if it's our fault or if it's a fault of the tradition or just,

it's just part of the expectation of being a hunter is we have to carry ourselves differently. We can't be, you know, you talk about the NBA or that like we have the, we're humans. People have affairs. People get DUIs. All of that. All the shit that you see with the stars. Yeah. But it's like hunting is judged differently because of that honor and respect part.

The 80, 10, 10. Yeah. I don't, I don't watch baseball. So if I hear about, I'm not, he's, he's a Christian now and he's been forgiven and all that. So I'm not going to use it as an example. But if I hear a baseball player got busted for cocaine or got busted for a DUI or whatever, whatever, I'm like, okay. Yeah.

I don't go baseball. Right. But in hunting. In hunting. Yeah. If a hunter does something that the 80%, well, the 80 and the 10, that the 10 use to get the 80 fired up, that does affect us. Yeah.

And so from an optic side, I totally understand what you're saying. and you're not wrong. I guess the question then becomes to what end? And how much, you know, it's like how many times do you have to do something, how many times do you have to repeat something to break a bad habit? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. So how many good things does someone have to do?

Right. To make up for a, I don't even necessarily have bad things, the right word. No, it can just be, it can be spun negatively. Correct. Yeah. And the question, and the answer. is there isn't enough. No. Because a guy like yourself who I've known forever, not to fluff your chub here, but you've never got caught for the neighbor's cat. Yeah. That wasn't, not that you've

not gotten caught, you just don't fuck the neighbor's cat. That didn't come off right. No, they've never caught me. Yeah, exactly. And so, right, but you've never had any of those. All of your good faith, all of your good works, you are acutely aware. Yeah. If you stepped on your, you step on your dick one time. Yeah. It's over.

None of that shit matters. No, I know. Yeah. Life's not fair. No. And so that's the reality of it. Yeah. And so you're aware of it.

Like when I talked to Jim, shocky years and years ago, I said, Jim, how do you, how do you not like going to hunt in Karpakistan and all these places? How do you do it right? legally. Yeah. And he's like, oh, I have a whole group of people that literally research everything. Well, when you go places, you are acutely aware of what is what and why and how because you understand all of your good works.

If you want to fuck up. And it depends on the severity, but not for some people. Correct. Correct. So I remember I was in years ago in Colorado. In Colorado, you have to have your hunter safety card on you. It can't be a screenshot. It can't be a whatever. And I switched packs.

I got a new, I don't know, I think it was before Kfaru even. So anyway, this is probably maybe 15 years ago. I didn't have it with me. I could have got a ticket. If I would have got a ticket for forgetting, Even though I had a picture of it, I had called my wife. She had it right there. The game warden was there or whatever.

It's like, if I would have got, I didn't get a ticket because he knew that, okay, this is. Right. This is just common sense. Yeah, it's just common sense. But that would have put into question all this. All of it. Is that fair? No.

That's just the way it goes. Right. That's the way it goes. Right. I can't. I, does me no good to complain about it because I know the rules. of the game. Yes.

The rules of the game are you can't fuck up and if you do, it's over. Basically. I mean, folks are going to say that's an exaggeration, but it's not. Not in hunting. Like, it's not over for the guy that works at the mill who goes and accidentally goes outside of his unit accidentally up in the middle of nowhere, whereas Onyx wasn't working and he accidentally crosses over somewhere he shouldn't of and kills an animal technically illegally.

not even on purpose. Now, he's still back at work. It's like, nobody gives a fuck. Exactly. Yeah. Like, oh, you don't get to. Now, I don't ever put anybody on blast, but here's the thing that I tell people in that regard.

Like when they mother somebody that made a mistake, whether they even met to or not, is I'll say, what equipment do you shoot? Do you know every executive at that company? Do you know the history of every executive at that company? you're you're digging on this person because they stepped on their dick but you realize the equipment you're holding do you do you know any of those people yeah I do and they'll be like

what don't I know right well I ain't telling you shit yeah because some of it is intentional and some of those people are douchebags yeah some of those people forgot their goddamn hunter safety card yeah And you want to turn them into a freaking murderer. Yeah, because of that. Yeah, it's, we love to, as I said, we love to eat our own for sure. Oh, dude. And it's like there is no, there's no nuance.

That's a problem. It's like we, come on. Who hasn't fucked up, right? And like even just, like even in that example, that was just an honest mistake. Some people have intentionally f*** up and still it doesn't deserve that they get every, their whole life ruined. Right. You know, or some people get a DUI. And it's just like, I can't judge them.

I've driven after drinking. I've been a fuck up myself. So when I think about myself, I'm like, I need to offer some grace to some of these people. And I'm not, I'm outside of hunting now. I'm just like, in general as a human. Just like, can we offer grace ever? Is that okay? Yeah, 100%.

Well, and I mean, and that's, but that's part of this internet, social media. collective. Yeah. Is nowadays, everybody's the judge, jury, and executioner. Right.

And the court of public opinion is the final ruling. Because if you make a mistake or someone else makes a mistake and the headline reads, Cam Haines gets, gets caught, the neighbor's cat. Yeah. That's going to sell papers or get clicks.

Someone reads it. Yeah. Someone clicks on it, likes it, shares it. Yeah. And they never check back. No, it never.

Oh, that was B. Yes. Yeah, 100%. Oh, whatever. What do you mean, Cam wasn't even in the country when that happened? Whatever. They never know.

No, it's been shared 7,000 times. Bingo. And so now people believe a headline before it's even proven. And our media, not we can see and NN's a whole other matter, but our hunting media with our hunting pages and all that, they don't care either. No, no. They want clicks just like anybody. Exactly. Because clicks pay the bills.

Yeah, for the chicks. And so, you know, that's just part and partial of it. So when I see and hear a lot of these things, and I hear a lot of things, like, well, what's the rest of the story? Yeah. Like, you know, what's the rest of the story? I'm not big on piling on fellow hunter. I mean, I'm just like, I just, I don't go to other pages and make shitty comments.

I don't. Right. Whatever. We got enough, we got enough shit to deal with. Right. Well, wasn't it Joe that said that you're never going to find someone hating on you that's doing better than you? Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think that's been proven plenty of times. Yeah, like, that's exactly what it is. Also, let's, you know, let's look at it this way. There are, there have been some massive mistakes that have led to incredible redemption stories. Chris Brackett. Yeah. Yeah. I like Chris. Chris is a good, Chris is a good dude. And yes, he absolutely stepped on his dick. No question.

He's talked a lot of shit about me. Has he? But I don't give it. I never heard him say anything bad about you, not to me. And I talked to him often. But yeah, no, probably not recently, but he did, he did. I liked aerobliction. I thought he was a rock star.

Right. So yeah, I was, and he won the golden moose for I don't even know what I was there. But I thought it was awesome. I thought it was awesome. And I don't even know what the fucking happened now. Oh, he shot a couple, you shot that one, Shot a couple deer he shouldn't have. Yeah, that's what it was.

But if he paid his dues and he's back, awesome. Dude, and he's literally full mea copa. He's like, well, and this is a thing that people don't understand. You will. I watched as Chris Brackett was on the 50 foot banners at Shot Show. Yeah. And Chris Brackett was everywhere with his chops. And he didn't have a mentor or a manager or someone to be like,

slow the fuck. down right you know he was that bull elephant in musk that didn't have a bigger bull elephant to tell him to calm down yeah yeah and the industry just kept telling him more more more right more feed the machine harder harder yeah more wild more wild and he did it yeah and then he f*** him yeah and once that happened of course the industry just cuts him loose but he's turned his life around he gave his life over life over to jesus christ he is fully paid for his for his for his mischief deeds and he's 100% open and honest about it. That's good. I like to hear that. Oh, dude. And now he's literally like, you know, he's got his podcast and he's doing his white tail equity thing.

And he is rebuilding. I don't think he's going to do a TV show again, of course, but he's now going to start using some of that old arrow affliction stuff. And so he's built himself back into the mix a little bit on the digital side. I like comeback stores. Everybody does. Jelly roll. Yes. Awesome. Yeah, I love it. That's what I say. Can we offer grace to people? Correct. I mean, if he was still out there poaching shit, then, okay.

Off, you just don't get it. Correct. But hey, you say, he's like making amends. He's doing it right. I can be like, that's awesome. Right. I love to hear that. And that, that, you know, brings me peace.

Yeah, 100%. And it's like, there's nothing wrong with supporting each other. Right. This is especially, well, our community. are small, but especially archery. I mean, God, can we really afford to just hate people just randomly and cancel them and just do whatever? It's like, I don't know.

I mean, yeah. Well, I mean, this is a thing that I always come back to. And yes, we're all competitive. And especially in what you're doing. But even 10, 15 years ago, who were you competing against? Me? Yeah. Nobody else.

You weren't competing against Michael Adele. You weren't competing against Jim Shockey. You weren't competing against the juries. Well, in my head I was. Correct. But in the real world of it all, there's plenty of viewers for everybody. Yeah, that's what I didn't. You know, Joe, I famously have brought this up.

But Joe, he's the one that I looked at everybody like I needed to crush them. Like boot on the neck. You are competition. If you have anything, you took a lot of, but for me. And I remember Waddell one time he called me our contracts. I think we're both trying to get underarmor or something like that. Yeah. And Wadell, he's like, he talked about how in the Bass tournament the guys know each other's deals. They kind of, everybody kind of knows, works together a little bit. And he was like saying, we should work together on this underarmor thing.

And I was in my head, I think I said, yeah, that sounds good. But in my head, I'm like, what? working with you. Anyway, so I had a hard time. Like, everybody's competition. And I've talked to him about this before. I feel bad that I was like had that mindset. Oh, my point was Joe, he's the one that really drove home the point that there's enough cake for everybody.

Just because you're winning doesn't mean somebody else can't win. And that was a huge wake-up call to me because I had coming from a small town where everybody talk shit about everybody and everybody basically if you succeed it's like shining a bad light on somebody who didn't have the same success it almost made them feel like a failure right so it's like what how can he come out of this shithole and be successful but i can't you know so it's like almost success was painful for other people right and that was for me too and i had that that that's where i came from so i'm like no you're taken from me and um he really You know, it's just like a, it's just a more mature mindset.

But, yeah, I think that's the key is like we can all win. Yes. We can all win. It's just like, I like to bring people on here to talk about it because I want them to win. I want other people to know your story and to hear your thoughts and to hear your perspective and your history on archery. I want people to appreciate you like I do. So, yeah, I've totally changed now.

Tell me, for people who want to make this a career, Yeah. What could they expect? Like how much money could, like somebody who wants to be a professional bow hunter? Mm-hmm. What do people make? What are contracts out there these days? Well, that depends, one, on how good you are and how established you are.

Like, they need to keep, let's just be honest here, names like Cam Haynes and Michael Waddell and Levi Morgan and Jim Shockey should just stay out of their mouth. Yeah. Like, don't even, like, I'll put it this way. As things progress, the value of CAMs and Michaels and Levi's and Jim Shockies, we won't see those again. We're just not going to. How come? Because it's going to be diluted. Okay. And what's going to happen is as these companies start looking at these values, like like I said to you earlier if I was just Joe bag of donuts from a marketing from a company in marketing and Cam Haynes can't go to anybody by the way but Cam Haynes came to me and said hey look here's my here's my shit sponsor me here's how much money the first thing that someone who is savvy like myself would be like okay I need you to print out all of your information for your platforms Instagram Facebook you

And I need to see your demographic information of sexes, ages, locations. Right. Because for me, that's going to tell me, one, who is your core audience? And that's going to tell me if, you know, is that a target audience for me? If you, you wouldn't be, of course, but if I look at your thing and I'm like, 13 to 17 year old girls, 82%. What kind of content you put in out, bro? I don't have a product for 13 to 17 year old girls.

Yeah. And so, but not everybody can do that. Right. Understand the process. And so if you are getting into this fresh, you know, you're probably depending on your amount of production cost. Like that's one thing that a lot of people don't understand is your guys that have full-fledged hunting shows right now that show up with multiple cameramen that are. on site. I mean, they're spending $25,000, $30,000 a hunt to be there. Right. I'm not talking about if they own the property, you don't even want to know how much that cost. Right. But if they're just

showing up to an outfitter to hunt and they got two cameramen, they got themselves, they got travel, they got all. And then the editing cost of putting episodes together, it's way more money than you could even imagine. And so for me, when I started, answer a question about, you know, what's the potential revenue? Well, the revenue is one thing. The barrier of entry for cost is another. Using the James Visser, it's him and his wife, and they do all they're editing themselves. So they have travel, hunt expenses. And so if you're doing your editing yourself, you're going to be able to be in the black a lot quicker. But generally speaking, if you are going to be successful in this as a hunting entity, you're probably

going to be, number one, you're going to have to come out of pocket to start. Yeah. Because you ain't Levi Morgan. Right. You aren't coming into it with a built-in audience. You're not coming into it with a built-in skill level. Like, no company looks at Levi and goes, well, I wonder how good he can shoot. Right.

Yeah. It's not happening. Right. And so in that regard, you're probably. going to start off. You would be hard pressed to probably not lose. If you're going to do it regularly and you're going to actually travel, you're probably going to lose anywhere from $20,000 to $40,000 a year for the first couple years. So you're going to have to... So you're like a professional bow hunter. Yes. You're losing money. To start. Yeah.

100%. Unless you come into it with clout. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's because I just, like, I'm trying to envisioned myself back in the day and I didn't make money for long. That's what I'm saying. I'm trying to paint this picture for people. Yeah. It's everybody, they're not everybody. A lot of people have this dream. They want to be successful and usually when you're successful, you get opportunities. When in this industry, maybe you get, your face gets out there. Maybe people know who you are because that's kind of what these young guys want. Correct. So I'm just trying to paint the picture on what it might take to get to your goal. Right. And, this money part, I don't know if, I mean, I think social media has helped.

Like, sometimes codes can pay off. Like, I don't know how often you guys do codes or, uh, brand or like, uh, partnership deals. People can make revenue from that. That's only if they're selling product. Correct. Right. Because they're getting a percentage. The, the, the, the, the BOMR 10, you're getting 10% of that sale, right?

So, um, anyway, point is, it's like, this takes time and investment. It's no different than any other business, right? So I'm just curious, like, you explain that well, but yeah, so once you've paid your dues, so like even for me, I know, without even looking, top two cities, L.A., New York, 24 to 35 males, 90% mail. Pay me. That's who buys shit.

Straight cash money, homie. That's who buys shit in our industry. It is. And Houston's in there, too, and a couple, maybe, yeah, but those three big cities. So anyway, if you're reaching, you said like the 13 to 17-year-old girls, you don't have a product for that. So most of archery, my demo is who they want to hit. 100%. So if your demo is different, not going to work.

Correct. Well, and here's a great example. Crispy. Okay. You know who Crispy is. So, Crispy stuff. At AAE, I was Chris and his. sister's first sponsor.

Okay. I had to talk to his dad because there were minors. Okay. Yeah. And so, but Chris came up through the professional ranks. Chris is not Levi-Morgan either, but he could shoot very, very good. But he started making content while he was shooting professionally. He kept shooting tournaments and making his content.

And then he found a niche for his content. Now you don't see him at a whole lot of tournaments. You see him at tax, but instead you see him on YouTube and Instagram with fat numbers of followers. Yeah. So he built his off of his professional archery and using that to integrate that into his content. Right. And his content wasn't necessarily, I'm a pro check me out.

It was, hey, I shoot professionally. I can shoot pretty good. And then he started finding a niche for his content. So he's kind of an anomaly in that way either, but he's also a great example. now because his content took off yeah he's not losing money right at all i wonder what he's making what would you what'd you think he's making give these young guys some something to dream it's a lot like a million a year uh no no no no um i don't know what his ad revenue is from socials and all that is anybody making a million a year oh yeah okay yeah yes

Everyone listening is not them. I understand. Yeah. And so generally speaking, then we start talking about, well, how many available resources for income are you going to have? Like, let's take you. Bowes, arrows, sites. I know you don't do a lot of the small stuff. You are partnered with gas from recollection.

Sitka. I think Grizzly. Black Rifle Coffee. Sig. Sig. I see some killcliffs. Are those part of the mix? Yeah, not really so much.

Okay. I mean, we have this drink and it's, it's good. I like it. Okay. But Black Rifle now has an energy drink. Oh, they do? Yeah. Where are they at?

Come on, one. Well, not, yes, I do. Can you grab them one? Absolutely. And so, so you have all these different available categories. Right. I like James Visser. He's not going to get butt hurt about this.

James Visser is not going to have, from Boe Disciples. Yeah. Is not going to have as many available categories. as you want one good sure thank you

freedom punch nice yeah so he's he's not going to have as many available categories meaning

grizzly and Sitka and all these non-archery product categories are not going to come to him yet right

he'll have to build up to that so the way he's doing it is pretty savvy doing his editing himself and all that kind of stuff

so he's probably going to low overhead that means he doesn't need to pitch a bunch of big contracts to these people. So I think like it's pretty good, huh? Damn, that's pretty good. I like it. I was waiting for that at the end, but it doesn't have it.

Good. But that, I think that's set up well because most people in this industry start off with like this. Correct. How much can you pay me? instead of like, let me show you what I can do, and then we'll talk. So with him having that low overhead, I think I just saw he went over 100,000 subscribers on YouTube, which we know that YouTube is the biggest platform right now. Yeah.

So smart to push hard towards that, but also smart to not have to have these huge, like the overhead requires you to need more money to pay for all that. It requires you to ask for more. These companies get asked for too much every day. So I like his approach in that, yeah, maybe he's not getting the non-endemics yet, the giant sponsors, but he's working up to it. And he's not burning bridges by saying, because I've heard people like some of my sponsors be like, yeah, we heard from this guy. And he's like, do you know what he asked for? And he'd be like, what the fuck?

Correct. So that is hard to get past shit like that. It's very hard. These people don't forget that. No. And it also shows them that they're believing, they're believing things they're told. Like, there's a perfect example.

You hunt down on the res. Mm-hmm. Did you do that 25 years ago? No. Why? No. Couldn't afford it. Couldn't get the opportunity.

Yeah. Just couldn't afford it. Yeah. Yeah. End of sentence. Yeah. Well, you can now. Mm-hmm.

James from both disciples, he couldn't afford it right now either. Right. Yeah. But he doesn't hate on everybody or pretend that he's going to. So he takes the fun route, the hunting route, and he has a real good niche. Yeah. And so if you're going to get into this, unless you're independently wealthy, plan on losing, excuse me, I'm going to rephrase that. Plan on investing $20,000 to $40,000 into your own growth.

That's the nicest way I can put it. Yeah. into your own growth until you become net zero. Right. Don't plan on making money right off the bat. It's not happening. It's just not. Yeah.

Every single company has the next whoever coming to them saying, hey, here's what I want. And what you're talking about is called the rate card. Like if you ask me, hey, I'm Cam Haynes. What am I worth for arrows? And this goes back to the Michael Waddell thing. The reason that we don't have the transparency that professional sports have is we don't have a union so we don't have a collective bargaining agreement, a CBA. Right. When Tom Brady signs a contract, everybody knows.

Everybody knows, yeah. Everybody knows his bonuses. When he gets this, when he gets this million dollar bonus, when he gets that, when he gets this. Because they have a collective bargaining agreement. So it's protected. Yeah. Legally. Right.

We don't have that. Mm-hmm. And companies in our space still kind of a good old boys network, they don't want everybody knowing what everybody makes. And it's not because they don't think people are worth it. They don't want people hearing what Cam Haynes makes and then going, oh, that's what I should be making. No, it shouldn't.

Yeah. Absolutely not. if you want Joe Rogan to come do a comedy skit or whatever at your birthday party, there's a price for that. It's going to cost a lot. It's going to cost a lot. If you want Dave Chappelle to come, it costs a lot. What if I want you to come? Is you going to cost less?

The comedy will be different than what you're expecting. But it will cost less. It will cost way less. So that's how it works. Exactly. That's exactly how it works. That's exactly how it works. Yeah.

And so the company. companies in our space want to keep that secret or want to keep that private. And in most contracts, it says do not divulge, blah, blah, blah, compensation. But it's not because they're worried about Hoyt, Neaston, or whoever else doesn't give a shit if how much they pay Cam Haynes becomes public because Cam Haynes is worth it. They don't want it to become public because a whole bunch of people who aren't worth it are all of a sudden going to measure themselves by it. No different than all the shit you.

have in this room that you've killed that is elite level and everyone wants to compare themselves to you for it right and that's just not how it works yeah if i'm driving an f-150 standard cab gas engine with vinyl floor mats and roll-up windows and someone pulls up next to me in an f-350 crew cab long-bed diesel platinum i don't get bent i just go must be a nice that's a nice It must be nice for them. Right? That's a nice truck. Yeah.

And so, but that's the reason companies don't want to do that. So, you know, if you're going to start in this right now, you're probably, unless you do it wisely and you do your own editing and you're not going on San Carlos Hunt's first year on credit cards. Yeah. You're going to, you're going to invest money into yourself for probably two to three years until you can be zero. Right. Then you can start. expanding by the growth of your of your network. If you're producing, if you're growing,

if you're not up for getting your hunter safety card. Like, you still have to, a lot of shit, it still has to go right. Right. Well, using Joe Rogan as an example,

how many times did Joe Rogan go to comedy clubs and alleys that were just shitholes to practice his craft way back when he had hair? Yeah. Paying dues. Paying dues. But no, I mean, so that's exactly what it is.

So I would plan on investing into yourself, unless you're a rare case, plan on investing in yourself for at least three years, and then hope to break even after three years. Then as your sponsorships grow, you can expand your network of content. The other part of it is, luckily, it's not who you blow. It's who you know these days. Back in the olden days, like I could tell you a story upon stories. when I was a marketing manager for Gold Tip and shows to be like, Greg, yeah, man, if we get this deal done, we'll bring you on out here and put you on a 180. And I'm like, I don't hunt with anybody that I'm in negotiations with.

Yeah. Period. But in our industry, marketing people getting free hunts is kind of like politicians getting kickbacks. Yeah. Most everybody does it. That's way it goes. And I just never did it because fundamentally I'm like, no. Yeah.

Just not doing it. Yeah. And so, but who you know is also incredibly valuable. Yeah, for sure. Whether it's, whether it's someone like me that knows a bunch of people or like a you, like if someone was was starting out in this and they were legit and they were like, and they were, you could vouch for them. Mm-hmm.

You could call, you could call Jeremy and be like, hey, dude, this guy's. Yeah. This guy's going to be something. I'm not saying to pay him 50 Gs off the bat, but he's going to make it. Yeah. That helps as well. Yeah, for sure. And so having someone else vouch for you, which guys like you and me, not that we're on the same level, but we don't vouch for many people.

No. For a reason. Yeah. So when we do, mean something. It means something. Yeah. Like, you know, I've been doing this so long. I've done shit for a lot of people.

but I don't ever ask for anything. Right. Like you and I have, you know, known quote-on-quote each other. You know, we're not like besties. We don't take long walks on the beach together and all that kind of bullshit. But I've never asked you for a thing.

No, but you've tried to, you've put yourself out to help me, which I appreciate. Well, that's different. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, yeah, it's, no, I understand what you're saying for sure. Yeah, it just basically it takes time.

It takes time to earn a name in the industry and then to earn money. Like the name, you have to do the name first. Correct. Then the money will come once you've proven yourself. But yeah, it's not as quick as some people. I like your point about the low overhead can make a big difference. That's a great approach. I do.

I think with the cameras nowadays, like Ty, we talked about his content is pretty high level. Right. And it doesn't take a huge team to do that. So that's good. Because, as I said, attention is currency, you get good content. People like it more. But there's like this weird dichotomy, too, where if James makes me a kick-ass real, I can do a selfie video of just me that does more.

So there's like this weird thing. Like people want authenticity. Right. That's where sometimes I think like the industry misses the mark is. we're so used to the studio shots and the polished stuff that nowadays with social media, they just want real. So if it looks too good, it almost gets less reach than if it's just authentic. Right.

So that's like a challenge too for people. Yeah. Well, and so speaking of Thai, and look, I've only met Ty once. I don't know him. Yeah, I don't know the kid. I just, I've met him once at attack events. So don't take this out of context. But I'm paying attention to him right now for a couple reasons.

One, I like to watch arrows fly too. Yeah, everybody does. His videos shooting different bows are just the sound. Okay. Yeah. That's not sustainable. So one of the reasons that I'm watching Ty right now is it's clear to me as a dork that he is building his platform, but he's going to have to transition it to the next level. I'm paying attention.

For James Visser, that's obvious what's going to happen. But with Ty, I'm watching him specifically because I'm paying attention for when he takes what he's building and takes it to the next level because I don't know him. So I can't tell you what he's going to do. But I can tell you he's going to have to do something because watching the arrows fly and the videos that he makes are cool. And you can see his numbers are going up. But he can't do that forever. Right. And he's obviously a smart kid.

Yeah. So I'm watching him specifically to see when's his, what's his Cam Haines 2008 moment? Yeah. What is he going to do to start? I mean, I can, is he all, is he going to start with getting technical content? Is he going to start with way more hunts? Is it like equipment, like what's his next step going to be to continue his ascension? Yeah.

And a lot of people don't make that move. Correct. Don't make that adjustment. They get this little bump of attention. and then they never really figure out how to get to the next level. That's most people. Yeah. That's why it's like there's only, I mean,

there's only a handful of people making a bunch of like a living in hunting, in bow hunting specifically, but because you have to figure out how do I keep growing? How do I keep growing this thing? How do I keep reaching more people? How do I, it's hard. Have a plan. You have to have a plan. It's hard.

It's hard. There's so much competition out there, not just in bow hunting. And everybody's on their phone. What are you doing that's going to stand out? Right. That's not going to be negative, like I talked about, you know, with Josh in the in the in the baboon. But so, yeah, how do we grow without stumbling? Right.

It's like it's tough. Right. Well, and that's part of having, like I've talked to James Visser about this. That's why I didn't bring him up in that example because I've literally asked because I sponsor him at Beast. Okay. And I'm, I'm here. him. I'm that guy. Like if you if you if you've ever been sponsored by me like we did the AAE thing years ago. Yeah. I asked specific questions because I want to know. I didn't have to ask

him with you. I already knew your program. But like with James, I'm like, okay, I see what you're doing. You're about the fun of it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm about that. Right. Not many people do that. But then what? Then what are you doing? And he literally laid out his strategy. And it's incremental. There's, I'm going to do this. Awesome. He's smart. Yeah. And I don't know Ty well enough to ask him that. If I ever hung out with him, I probably would.

If I see him at ATA, I will probably ask him that because I care and I see potential in the kid. And so in that regard, it's something that I do pay attention to. But generally speaking, once you get into this and you are actually sustainable and you get enough categories to be sustainable, your most guys would probably be well off if they were clearing after expenses. If you're in the, if you're in the 50 to 75,000 after expenses within five years, you're doing very well. Yeah. That's pretty good money. Now, that's not without working.

That's just doing what you do. Yeah. A lot of these guys are working for companies as well. That's not what I'm talking about. Right. I'm talking about just doing your content thing and getting compensated for it. Yeah. So in five years, if you're 50 to 75 in the black, you're doing very, very well and you are going to be on your way to not a million, but you'll be on your way to get there.

Yeah. Yeah. And so with one thing that the television hunting did is it limited that because there was no social media to speak of. Yeah. So there's only X number of shows. So there's only X number of dollars. Yeah. Well, YouTube doesn't have a limit.

Yeah. And so now when you start looking at things, you know, like Greg Glessinger, his YouTube doubled in 2025. Wow. And that was just through pure attention to detail. He's a 50-something-year-old guy, very well-spoken, super nice dude. He read the room. He understands the assignment. And he has the pedigree in hunting.

to substantiate his new strategy. Well, as a young guy, pay attention to that kind of stuff. You don't have to be Greg Klessinger out there hammering 180s to 200s like they're for free. Yeah. You don't got to do that. But pay attention to what some of these folks are doing because if you think it was competitive when you were coming up. Oh, man. Right now, dude, it's the Wild Wild West.

Yeah, that's tough out there. Because hunting television is transitioning. to something that most people are not even going to be familiar with. And Instagram, YouTube. And everybody's got a phone so everybody can post on that shit. So if you're not standing out, that's what I always say too. It's like for these young guys, I want to see these young guys kicking ass. But it's just like, if you're going to take my spot, you better get to work.

Oh, that's well, I mean. So I'm like, come take it. Because I look at, as I said, I have. haven't given up the whole everybody's competition thing. My approach every day is like people want what I have. You think? They would love to have these opportunities. And I'm like, cool, come take it. But here's the problem with that camp. We all know the stories of the old lions. Yeah. It's easier to get to the top than to stay at the top. Some shoes can't be filled. And you may not like, you'll probably like to hear it, but you'll like myself, you get a little bit squeamish when people start.

If you were to go away right this second, nobody is going to fill your role. Nobody. Not that someone can't go hunt San Carlos and kill big bulls. I'm talking about Cam Haynes, the entity. No one's going to fill that. That's not going to create a vacuum because you are the vacuum. I get what you're saying, yeah. So for you, it's like if you think you can come take it, try to come take it, but they don't know what they're taking.

Yeah, well, my attitude is like, I'm just going to, I'm, whatever I've done before, I'm only doing more now. So it's like, I'm always like, look, I don't really look over my shoulder, but I, I, that's what the feeling. and I want to have. I want to have that people are coming to take what I have, so I better. Being pushed. Yeah. And it's like,

that's why I had the hardest time with, remember when all the girls were coming in? And everybody's all but heard about, oh, these girls are getting marketing. And it's like, they haven't killed anything. They're just hot with a bow. I'm like, if you can't beat that,

if you're a guy and you're supposed to be this badass bow hunter, and you can't beat just some hot girl who doesn't really, have any credibility just being hot, then you don't have what it takes. Facts. You don't have what it takes. You were never going to make it. If that's all it took, if you can't make yourself more marketable than that, you're, because I love seeing the girls come in. It was great. It's like, who doesn't want to see a girl holding a bow? If you're hot, it's even better. But I didn't take it as a thread. Right. It's like, no, I'm, this is not what I do. So if they're kicking ass and what they

do awesome has nothing do with me but i saw so many guys that were so upset that these girls were getting these opportunities so it's like work harder what are you crying about well and the the problem is it's like carls junior with the smoking hot chicks eating the big giant burgers that are dripping all over their i'll watch a commercial so why doesn't make me want to go watch a get go into carls junior's burger but i'll sure his shit watch it yeah yeah you think she's eating a carls burger hell no She's spit that shit out. We all know what sells in marketing. Yeah.

And sex and women sell everything. It's never going to change. No. And so if some woman, and this is, dude, I got to ask this a bunch. So as these women are getting these deals, guys are comparing their number of likes to their number of likes. And I'm like, you're talking about. First of all, you're not going to get as many likes as them because half of those, half of those dudes are saving that picture for the Spank Bank. Yeah.

So they're not converting. No. At all. No. So don't worry about what they're doing. Worry about what you're doing because you can have a page that's a tenth of a size and sell 10 times the product. Yeah. But they're trying to compare themselves on levels that don't apply.

Doesn't matter. At all. And it's no different than someone anywhere trying to compare themselves to you and Joe on a hunt in the San Carlos and being like, oh, well, that's only because that's because they can. Yeah. Yeah. And if you want to save your pennies and you want to do what you need to do, you can too. It's a free country.

And if you want to pay for PSE to advertise in a magazine on your way up, good luck. Exactly. And so that's the whole point. And so folks just don't understand the comparative side of this. Yeah. And, you know, it just is what it is. But it's part of our culture. And the problem is we don't have enough.

my opinion, we don't have enough people in marketing departments in these companies that understand that dynamic, period. Yeah, that's that that's kind of like, I don't know, I've always been, I don't even know what, but I bet on myself quite a bit and I, I, you'll appreciate this story, but I had this deal that I negotiated and I just said, I don't want any money up front. I don't give but I want 25% royalty. And they're like, I said, so if I don't sell shit, you don't pay me anything. Problem was, first quarter came in, brought me a check for the first quarter, $187,000. Right.

They're like, we can't do this. We can't. So the 25% royalty was too much, like I didn't want to hurt the company. But it's just like, that's one approach. The hot girls, they're. royalty would be nothing because you said they're not moving anything they're like guys like it who doesn't like big tits oh i like that that's cool they're not buying anything no conversion girls got an only fans page but it's just like so bet on yourself but can you produce correct

i know i can produce so i'm like i don't need any money if this is easier for you to accept this to sign this deal and agree to pay me 25% royalty great right i don't i don't need i don't want money for nothing. And so I believe in, I know I can produce, but it's like, that's, that's one approach you can take. I see these guys, I want them to be hungry, but I also want them to believe in what they can offer, not be distracted by this, by these, the girl competition, not be whatever. Just like, get your lane and own it. Right. Well, and a lot of these folks want to get into this based off things they've heard. And then they, they expect the companies to foot the bill for them to make themselves successful. And it's like, that's just not how it works at all. You know,

when I took over Bo Junkie in 2016, I told, and I know every company. Yeah. And I called them all. And I said, hey, my wife and I took this some bitch over because I think the sport needs it. I'm not going to accept any money. I'm going to self-fund it until the product is what I, what I think it needs to be. Yeah. Then I'll call you. It took about three months. And I was like, Yeah, this. And literally every single phone call about time. Yeah, that's awesome. So this is the same.

If you, what's the name of that book again? Undeniable. Yeah. If you make what you're doing or yourself, depending on your brand, undeniable, you won't have to, you won't have to ask. Yeah. People will search you out. Yeah, it's true.

There is, there is, here's a. a pet peeve, not a pet peeve, but it's just business. Sometimes these long-term deals, they can get complacent. Oh, yeah. Like, and sometimes you have to remind them. The company or the athlete? Well, both. But I've been in contracts where, you know, I was paid off this certain value

because that was where I was. But then you get to a different place and you're like, wait a second, what was my reach at this, when we signed this contract? Let's take another look at that. So the companies can get complacent on thinking that, oh, they've shot, you know, or used our equipment forever. They're never going to leave. It's just like, I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Right. I mean, it's still just like, you know, I had to have, I talked to Hoyt about this. It's like, you know, Chuck Adams shot Hoyt. Chuck Adams is the biggest name in bohunting forever for years. for 200 and some pop of young animals, seven world records. He's not shooting Hoyt anymore. No.

So not, I mean, I'm marketable now, but I'm not going to be marketable forever. So it's like I have to take advantage of where I'm at right now. Because as soon as I'm not moving the needle, I'm gone. I don't know if gone's a right word, Cam. However, but you are a smart. My values less. Yes.

How about that? Yes. There is a crossover. point. And so, but you're smart enough, you're smart enough. I have 100% faith that as you, as you do what you do changes, whether it's not been able to run 200 miles at a time or some of the hardcore stuff you do, as your body and your mind tells you that you need to modify how you're doing what you're doing, you will also be cognitive of the fact that that will affect your compensation.

Yeah. Yeah. And so not that it will completely go away, but you're smart enough that you will modify. Yeah. What you do. That's the name of the game. To remain that relevant, even if you're not doing some of the things you used to. Yeah.

And at your age and your fitness level, and I know you've done the most hardcore shit ever to be a better hunter, 100%. Even when you can't physically. do. It's obviously not right now. But when you can't physically do the shit you do right now, you're going to be smart enough to modify things to remain just as relevant because you're still going to be physically a better bow hunter than 99.9% of the people out there. I don't know. That's just business. Yeah. Maybe maybe, me, yeah. I've, I've, I've recalibrated many times. Right. Throughout this journey from, as we talked about, social media,

advent of that. But yeah, I mean, if you if you can't change, yeah, you're, I mean, you're definitely shooting yourself in the foot as far as longevity goes. But yeah, if you're always evolving, I think that's that's kind of what you're, you're alluding to. And I don't want people to think that this is all money related. I mean, we're talking about business because I'm interested in it. And I like it. And, you know, I've been in numbers. I was a buyer for 20 years or so numbers. To me, it's like money's just a measurable. It's not, I don't give a, I have whatever.

I don't need anything. But it's just a good measuring stick on how things are working if it's going well. Because I'll be honest right now, I don't, I hadn't, I mean, I had an offer for more money than I get from Hoyt, my Boe sponsor this year. And I didn't take it. So it's like, it's not, I'm not always just like obsessed with. with money and like getting the most. I don't, I don't give a really other than I want to make sure that I'm being,

my worth is valued. Correct. That's it. That's all I'm trying to do. Fairly compensated for your value. That's it. And that's all it boils down to. So, but I mean, the equipment side is one thing.

And I have a saying and it's, and I don't say it very often, but I'll, I'll say it to you is it's like, it's not the equipment that makes you successful. it's how you're equipped for success. Yeah, I agree with that. It's between your ears. Yeah. And so no matter what equipment you have, that's not what makes you successful. It's how equipped cam is for success.

Right. Yeah. And that's what's made you successful. And so for anyone that's watching or listening to this, you just have to understand that you can use Michael Waddell or Levi or you or anyone as motivation, but they're not going to be any of you guys. Right. You're not going to be a 742-time world champion, likely by Morgan.

You're not running 25 miles in the morning for shits and giggles and 150-mile marathons. You're not doing that. Right. And, you know, you're not going to have the network that Cam Haynes has. Or you're not going to, you know, the era that Michael Waddell came up in. Right. You're not coming up in that era. Yeah.

You know, look at the, you know, I was just having to tune in some football the other day. It's not the same game anymore. No. At all. Like, they call roughing the passer. Yeah. They call roughing the passer for a dude that hit the quarterback in the head on accident with his hand. I know.

Crazy. So, who's ever going to measure up to Tom Brady as the goat of quarterbacks when you can't touch them? Things change. Things change. You have to evolve. Yeah. Yeah. And you can't be pointing to different examples and different whatever.

You're just like, worry about yourself. Right. Yeah. I like talking about this, though, because I know there's young guys listening and or old guys, whatever. It doesn't matter. But it's like we can all learn and get better and just kind of get a better idea of how this works.

But yeah, I mean, for me, it's like money's that measuring stick. But mostly I just have to believe in, you know, like I believe in Hoyt, whatever. It's just like, so I hope that our deal, I feel valued. That's it. I know I produce for them. And I believe in the bow. So that's all it takes, usually. 100%.

I mean, if you were to ask me, I call it my stranded island build. If you were to put me on a deserted island with archie equipment, what would it be? Yeah, it's what I use. It'd be a Hoyt bow. Yeah. A whisker biscuit. Okay. Because.

Yeah. They can't break. No, they can't. Spothog site. Yeah. Probably that Jim Fletcher release that I still have. Yeah. Because they can never break.

Right. And as far as arrows, probably like a super stiff east axis. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. And a fixed blade broadhead that is unbreakable. Yeah. Like, that's it.

That way if something happens, I can beat the animal to death with my bow if needed. Yeah. Well, the strings are a lot better, so we don't have to worry about that because back in the day, our strings were shit. Right. Well, I was actually helping Tom and Thomas Neely with Winner's Choice in 2000 when that whole paradigm shift comes. And I know that everybody uses that. But it was BCY with the material is really what when BCY and, you know, when Bob Destin and them, you know, converted that over. Those fibers got so much better.

You know what BCY stands for? No. You're going to shit. So you know that Bob Destin, the owner of BCY, used to work for Brownell. Okay. Yeah. And so Brownell and him had a falling out, blah, blah, blah. So him and Ray started BCY.

BCY stands for Brownell, carpet, and yarn. Oh, God. Was that the name of Brownell? Brownell was Brownell. But where did carpet and yarn come from? Because they make carpet and yarn. Oh, gotcha. Okay.

So they make textile fibers. Oh, I see. Yeah. So it's just basically calling what they do. Yeah. That's awesome. That's pretty gangster. No, I love it. But yeah, I love stories like that. But yeah, the string, the strings. Yeah, so point is, strings have like evolved so much from, you know, back in the day I didn't even want to shoot my bow when we got too close to season because I knew a serving who's going to break. The string was going to stretch. Some, something's get fucked up. So. Right. with gas bow strings and you know there's some great ones out there but man this really made a

difference i run gas as well i mean what eric has done and eric had a lot of experience i mean i don't if a lot of people know this but dude eric was making strings way the hell long time ago way before gas eric was into strings okay so strings wasn't something he just picked up for shits and giggles yeah he already had a lot of expertise in it yeah and i i think that you know a lot of the companies will say that their strings are as good, they're not as good. No, they're not as good. So, I mean, there was a time too when I know every like bow manufacturer makes it quiver and own stabilizer and own rest and they're getting better. But I would always put other shit on because it was better. You know, Under Armour used to want to pretend like they made everything. So they like,

you signed a deal with Under Armour that covered sunglasses. It's like, yeah, I know you guys say you guys do this, but these suck. Right. That's how the bow industry was kind of like that too, where they wanted to provide everything. Because I think they could make the dealers, like put pressure on the dealers to buy that shit. Well, what they do, I mean, I can tell you why that happens. So basically what happens is they use the access. So dealers make most all their money on accessories, not bows.

Oh, okay. Gotcha. And so what they do is they use accessories. to incentivize dealers buying bows. So you buy X amount of bows, you get these kind of specials or free on these accessories. I see. So then you bring in the accessories.

Yeah. You have more of their bows, but then you're making even bigger margins on the accessories. Yeah, I understand. You know, and it's like I have a, I have a 2002 Ford F350 crew cab longbed out there. Do you think it has the stock tires on it?

No. Absolutely not. Yeah. No. No. Right. Same thing. And it's no offense to Hoyt or Matthews or any of the bow companies.

You're not a custom string builder, bro. Just make me a good bow. Right. I'll figure out the rest. 100%. I will put the shoes on it that I want. Yeah. It's a business.

I want everybody making money. I want all the accessory companies to make money. I want the pro shops to kick ass. I love how good the bow rack's doing. Yeah, I just love this industry. It's just been, obviously, it's changed our lives for sure. 100%. And it's been at what a, what a journey.

But yeah, I, this has been fun. But I know we have some more retarded questions from Gideon. Uh-oh. Yeah, let's go, Gideon. Gideon, you're up. Okay, we promised you a, Mary Kill. And with the, with the kind of way this podcast went, I think this will be a good one. I changed it a little bit.

So you've played Mary Kill before, right? Do you know how it works? My guy August Peters introduced me to Would You? Okay. Same idea. It's like, oh no, I get it. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. So I decided to choose all the things that you guys kind of decided weren't good. Uh-oh. Mary Kill, fast bow speed, light arrow weight, and short brace height. kill no you have to like so so so listen is like good for one time mary you're gonna have that for as long as you bow hunt and kill you never want to fuck with again so of those three what what which of them are you gonna like deal with forever so it's either short brace height a light arrow or what was the other one yeah so fast bow seed bow speed light arrow weight short brace

I know what I'd answer out of those, but go ahead. Well, if I had to, if I have to marry one, I will marry the arrow weight. Oh, yeah, because you didn't say whether, did you say it was light? I said light arrow weight. Yeah, it has to be light. Yeah, I'll marry the light arrow weight. Okay. Because I can adjust my poundage and cheat.

Well, I was going to say if you did, what was the other one, speed? Yep. Speed you could do the same. Correct. You can cheat on that. But yeah. So, like, I could technically shoot 345 feet, per second at will.

Yeah. I ain't gonna. Right. No way. Okay. So go ahead. If I did, I would fuck it. It would be a one-time thing and done.

The short race height at my draw length. Yeah. Kill. No. And then so you'd marry. I'd marry the lighter arrow. Yeah. I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, the speed.

Yeah. And I would kill the short brace height. Because at 32 inches of draw length, bro. So you don't, what about PSC Sicario? They don't go in my draw lengths. I'm good. It's like going out and picking up a half a lump so I can slump bust.

I don't need to. Yeah, we don't need to shoot a two-inch brace height. Yeah, it doesn't go to 32 inches. So guess what? I'm out. Mine is 22 inches, so it probably doesn't go to 22 either. Right. Okay, what else you got?

Okay, you guys talked about a lot of people that are coming up, and you also mentioned some past archers, but how important do you think that it is for those new archers to absorb the stories and the history from the pioneers that came before them? How important is it? Yeah. Is this a fire kill thing? No, no. It's just, I'm marrying that.

This is just in general, how important is it? Oh, anyone that doesn't learn from history is doomed to repeat it. And I think it's incredibly important. I think archery as a whole absolutely sucks donkey balls on appreciating our history. history. Me and you and people like us, we get it. Yeah. But I think that on the on the whole, we do a terrible job with recognizing our history. So for anyone that's up and coming, learn. You know, everyone says, oh, uh, you know, wise means I, I, I learned from my mistakes. How about you learn from other people's mistakes? Yeah. Yeah. So that is, that is

either one A or one B. Yeah. No, I like that. I get inspired. You know, we can learn, but also like, I just want to love to celebrate the pioneers. Like, I'd love to have Chuck Adams on here. Right. You know, I mean, Chuck Adams a lot.

And it drives me crazy that there's a lot of new bow hunters who don't even know who he is. At all. And that's, you know, that shouldn't be allowed, basically. But I've also heard of like NBA guys or NFL. Young guys don't know who the grades of. Correct. And that, so I think it's just part of, it's just how the world works,

but I wish we were better. I mean, as I said, hunters are known for respect and honor and things like that. Part of that to me means also respecting to honoring those who came before us. 100% and learning. And you said learning from it, but even just,

just acknowledging. Reverence. Yeah, reverence. Reference. Like, you know, M.R. James. He wrote that, book 45 unforgettable bow hunters chuck adams life full draw i have all of them and i just like am so immersed in and that and have been forever but i wish yeah i i think that's a good question but i wish

the young guys just embrace that more 100% well i mean and so much has changed that understanding not just what they accomplished and how they paved the way for all of us to get here but what they had to deal with and the equipment they had to deal with. Oh, man. And, like, they accomplished that without social media. Yeah. Chuck Adams accomplished that without the internet. Yeah.

Nuts. Like, it's, you know, Randy Olmer's and all. It's like, not only do they not understand what they did. They don't understand the framework and the context in which they had to do it. Yeah. I know Chuck shot fingers forever. Right. heavy like an arrow like this what is this one uh 2314 yeah i mean this is kind of this is exactly

well i didn't shoot feathers but this is about what i shot something like this and this is so light what is this a thunderhead 125 here yep absolutely yeah and but this arrow is so i mean i don't know but but the bows back then were yeah 200 20 feet a second right they're all 230 little wheel on the top of yeah just like that PSC one that I had here but yeah they just didn't perform like they do now but to kill that's wasn't easy no not at all wasn't easy this is from my buddy mark smith oh nice says he uh I think he killed a what does it say meal deer mark killed some hammers yeah 916 1995 damn apparently this killed a meal deer nice so that's pretty cool but yeah what else you got all right this is my last question I don't know for

For those of you that are listening, you won't get this, but even watching, you are a mountain of a human being. Who, me? Yeah. Oh, thank you. I think you broke my hand when I shook it. And now I'm going to have to beat off with my left. But I'm just curious as somebody who, you know, obviously does some backcountry hunts. What does your, what does your like calorie count look like using dehydrated meals, snacks when going into the back country?

Well, in all transparency, the most backcountry I've ever did was hunting moose with my buddy Dave up in Alaska. Okay. And all I will say there is we were going. We came prepared. So I got there. And it was like cold, slating, but we had to drive all the way up to the slope, all the way up to cold foot, long way. Well, in the time that, so when I arrived, the weather was, and he's like, bro, we're going to crush.

So I get there and it's like all of a sudden the next day, it's like 48. We're like, eh, this should be okay. Bro, it was in the 60s. Ooh. So we went up there prepared to like pack in. Yeah. And we get up there and he's like, that ain't going to work. Yeah.

Because that ain't going to work. You know how does Alaska? Yeah. The, you know, I'm out of Coldfoot. The freaking fishing game guys there with his plane. And like if you literally kill something too far in, they will literally take. at you because they're like, you can't get the meat out. Yeah.

So we didn't end up doing that. So I will just say that I was glad that his truck was close to camp because my miles per gallon absolutely sucks. Yeah. But a tundra rabbit mixed with a mountain house equals plenty of toilet paper. And that can get you by for a little while, I guess. I was smashing multiples at a time. Yeah.

Several times, you know, but, but it's like, like right now, I'll do intermittent intermittent fasting regularly. So like right now, I'm 285, 290 right around there, you know. And so, but when I went up to hunt in Alaska, I'm like, I don't need to no, no, no, no. So I cut down to like 265. Oh, a little guy. Yeah, midget. And so I was like, I don't need to be 290. walking around the tundra because for anyone that's walked around the tundra trying to step on those

it's hard work hairy basketballs that are that that that move yeah it's don't call them what they call them up there but um it's inappropriate it oh so you know yeah yeah and so and james loves hairy balls correct they're big they're giant he loves big hairy yeah they're they're they're they're they're substantial and they and they move like normal and so uh no so as far as uh uh food like that goes, it's, it's a lot. But are they called ninja heads? Yes, they are. They are called that, actually.

That was, you are right on the money. That is inappropriate. We are taking it back in 2006, but you got to use it in the right context. And, uh, yeah. But yes. So my food consumption, I mean, like my food consumption on a regular day, 5,000 calories is simple. Whoa.

That's what you're starving right now then. Oh, no, I ate before this started. Oh, did you? And I'll be, is there an In-N-Out over here? No. Damn it. I know. I might drive straight down the five to Medford because my normal.

Is Grant's Pass? Yes. Oh, then you can cut over. Yes. So my normal at In-N-Out is three three-by-threes. Yeah. Fries and a drink. That's my norm.

He beats you. Yeah, we just talked about our In-Out orders. We did. Yeah. Three-3-by-threes. spread only. So is three by three patties? Yeah.

On each one? Yeah. So you have nine patties. Yeah, yeah. But the trick is you got to talk about shitting. But no, no, it's good, man.

So, but the, but the trick is, is you got to open up the burger and you put the fries in the burger. And then you put the burger back together and you eat it with the fries in the middle. I think we need to go to Grant's Pass right now. Yeah.

So I'm talking about. So, and that's if, like if I go after I worked out, the three three by threes is a start. But yeah, my miles per gallon sucks. Yeah. But not to your level because I'm not that good. But when I know I'm going to be going on a hunt or something like that, I will weeks and weeks ahead of time start preparing because I can't bring 5,000 calories a day.

Yeah, that's tough. Hunting. That's tough. You just can't. No. So I'll do intermittent fasting and I'll do other stuff and cut down and wait to, you know, do that. Remember this? Like, remember how, see that rubber right there? Yes. Like, the more you tighten it up, the more sticks out.

It used to squish out. Yeah. Yeah, I took those. Back then, I took those out. Yeah. Why? And then I would heat up the insert and just spin it. So that's just to line up with a vein, right? Is that what they're doing? That's what it was. Oh, no, it was. That's what it was for. So you could line up with those. But for me, I just used it to make sure it spun true. because back then shit didn't spin super straight. And back then also, if this blade on the inside was straight to the riser, you'd probably pull that arrow off if you had an overdraw. Yes.

Remember that? Because it's like we didn't have the, it seems like you didn't have the clearance. No. No, absolutely not. Well, like my first bow was given to me by a hunting buddy named George Rhinis over in Clameth Falls, and it was a 145 pound Oregon windwalker with 2419s. that I shot with fingers. God.

That was 1999. What was Axel to Axel on that bitch? 78. I mean fingers with that thing? Yeah, no, it was 40. Just pulling 145 pounds with fingers, dude? It's my first bow. I didn't know any different.

Well, that's unethical. You don't need to shoot. I get criticized for what I shoot, let alone, what if people knew that? Dude, with those Cabela's broadheads that cost like seven cents each. Yeah. They corks. They corks. They corkscrewed the whole way down there, and I had no idea what I was doing.

But I ended up, I shot a mule deer frontal right through the throat at like 42. What was good about having that shitty aeroplight is it would kind of gut the animal as it went through. Right. And then you walk up to it. The guts are out. You just drag it out. It was better than any single bevel ever created. Well, Greg, it's been awesome talking bohunting and archery with you.

I appreciate it. It's a it's I've been wanting to get you here for a long time. I love you when you're on podcast. I love all your insights and perspective and thoughts and opinion. So thank you so much for sharing so much of it with me today. I appreciate you having me, man. It's been a long time coming and you keep on like you are, brother. Yeah, we're a bunch of old guys still trying to do it.

Well, it's like I say anytime, you know, and I'm not a small person. People are like, God damn. Look, I'm just an old dude trying not to go down without a fight. That's it. Well, you're kicking ass. I love to see you being successful and love what you offer this world. Thank you. I appreciate it, buddy. Thank you. Thank you.